View Full Version : Tilting Robot for better shot?
excel2474
14-03-2013, 23:28
Is it legal to tilt the frame of the robot (such that the bumpers are no longer within the bumper zone) during the last 20 seconds of the match, to get a better angle while shooting the red or blue Frisbees?
This action is the same action many robots take in order to climb the pyramid. I have not seen any rules that differentiates this action from the action of climbing the pyramid. Any thoughts??
Is it legal to tilt the frame of the robot (such that the bumpers are no longer within the bumper zone) during the last 20 seconds of the match, to get a better angle while shooting the red or blue Frisbees?
This action is the same action many robots take in order to climb the pyramid. I have not seen any rules that differentiates this action from the action of climbing the pyramid. Any thoughts??
As long as you're touching the pyramid you'd be alright.
excel2474
14-03-2013, 23:32
That's like asking if a robot can climb the pyramid or not - if a robot would have to keep their bumpers between 2"-10" for the entirety of the match do you think we would see any 30 point climbers?
You would think, but our team is getting some flack for doing attempting it, yet nobody has pointed at a rule prohibiting it.
excel2474
14-03-2013, 23:33
As long as you're touching the pyramid you'd be alright.
Is there a specific rule that you're referring to when you say it "must be touching"?
z_beeblebrox
14-03-2013, 23:33
As long as you're touching the pyramid you'd be alright.
I don't think you even need to touch the pyramid for it to be legal.
ehochstein
14-03-2013, 23:38
R25
BUMPERS must be located entirely within the BUMPER ZONE, which is between 2 and 10 in. from the floor, in reference to the ROBOT standing normally on a flat floor.
I think you do, because otherwise the bumper restrictions wouldn't really be restrictions. I believe in normal configuration the bumper rules are always in play, provided you aren't tipped
excel2474
14-03-2013, 23:40
R25
BUMPERS must be located entirely within the BUMPER ZONE, which is between 2 and 10 in. from the floor, in reference to the ROBOT standing normally on a flat floor.
But the robot would not be standing normal to the floor, it would be tilted for the end game, just like robots tilt to climb the tower. When the robot is normal to the floor, the bumpers satisfy the requirements.
excel2474
14-03-2013, 23:42
I think you do, because otherwise the bumper restrictions wouldn't really be restrictions. I believe in normal configuration the bumper rules are always in play, provided you aren't tipped
They are certainly not in effect during the end game while climbing the tower.
ehochstein
14-03-2013, 23:42
But the robot would not be standing normal to the floor, it would be tilted for the end game, just like robots tilt to climb the tower. When the robot is normal to the floor, the bumpers satisfy the requirements.
It says in reference to the robot standing normally on a flat floor.
To me this implies that it would be alright for the robot to tilt during the match, as long as your bumpers are non-articulating.
They are certainly not in effect during the end game while climbing the tower.
When climbing the tower you invoke what I imagine would be considered CLIMBING configuration, with a whole new set of rules
This Q&A entry addresses your question.
https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/560/if-a-robot-is-not-in-the-process-of-climbing-but-deploys-a-mechanism-that-tilts-the-robot-relative-to-its-wheels-on-the-floor-orientation-while-meeting-g23-do-the-bumpers-need-to-remain-within
Q. If a robot is NOT "in the process of CLIMBING", but deploys a mechanism that tilts the robot relative to its "wheels on the floor" orientation (while meeting G23), do the bumpers need to remain within the bumper zone in order to satisfy R25?
A. Yes.
excel2474
14-03-2013, 23:46
To me this implies that it would be alright for the robot to tilt during the match, as long as your bumpers are non-articulating.[/QUOTE]
Okay, I think you make a good point, but I'm just wondering what is the difference between exiting the bumper configuration during climbing and during shooting the colored frisbees.
excel2474
14-03-2013, 23:49
This Q&A entry addresses your question.
https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/560/if-a-robot-is-not-in-the-process-of-climbing-but-deploys-a-mechanism-that-tilts-the-robot-relative-to-its-wheels-on-the-floor-orientation-while-meeting-g23-do-the-bumpers-need-to-remain-within
Okay, this does seem to clarify things. Does the process of climbing necessarily involve contact with the tower?
excel2474
14-03-2013, 23:55
Many robots score point with the colored frisbees after they have entered "climbing configuration". If tilting the robot was a part of the "climbing configuration", I don't see why it would not be legal to score frisbee points in this configuration.
Searching the Q&A is your friend.
https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/559/regarding-r25-1-per-q174-does-a-robot-need-to-be-in-contact-with-the-pyramid-to-be-considered-in-the-process-of-climbing-2-if-a-robot-is-not-in-the-process-of-climbing-but-deploys-a-me
Q. Regarding R25: (1) Per Q174, does a robot need to be in contact with the pyramid to be considered "in the process of CLIMBING"? (2) If a robot is NOT "in the process of CLIMBING", but deploys a mechanism that tilts the robot relative to its "wheels on the floor" orientation (while meetin
A. 1. Yes. 2. Please see Q560 (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/560/questionlink) .
Jack Jones
15-03-2013, 00:22
R25
BUMPERS must be located entirely within the BUMPER ZONE, which is between 2 and 10 in. from the floor, in reference to the ROBOT standing normally on a flat floor.
R25 is meant to deliniate the location of the bumper zone for the purpose of measuring it during inspection. It is not meant to say the the BZ must lways be 2-10 from the floor during play. The BZ is defined in the Robot Section because it is a robot property. It is not an Arena property, as would have to be if it were defined in a fixed relation to the floor. The BZ is defined in relation to the robot and the floor is mentioned only to provide a point from which to measure.
IMO, the Robot rules demand a fixed relationship between the frame, bumper, and BZ. That fixed relationship demands that the BZ's orentation is always the same as the bumpers and frame. The BZ "moves with the robot."
This Q&A entry addresses your question.
https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...-remain-within
Quote = Karthik:
Originally Posted by FRC Q&A #560
Q. If a robot is NOT "in the process of CLIMBING", but deploys a mechanism that tilts the robot relative to its "wheels on the floor" orientation (while meeting G23), do the bumpers need to remain within the bumper zone in order to satisfy R25?
A. Yes.
In short:
Q: Do the bumpers need to remain in the bumper zone?
A: Yes
The GDC is not saying here that the bumpers would NOT be in the BZ in this scenerio.
Dreams2Reality
15-03-2013, 12:19
R22 states clearly the purpose of the bumper which is "to protect the frame perimeter" not the undercarriage or the inside of the robot, etc. With this rule in conjunction with R25, it would not seem to make sense not to allow the frame articulation as long as the bumpers continue to perform their one and only stated purpose. Also, if it were deployed as a defensive or offensive move perhaps it should not be allowed, but the end game is different (and autonomous too???)
It is likely not to be allowed given the Q&A precedence already in place but Would these thoughts have made a difference (perhaps they were mentioned in discussion but there is no way to know I guess).
Wayne TenBrink
16-03-2013, 19:23
I posted Q&A #559 & #560 after we were together with 2474 at Traverse City. They used tilt for the pyramid shots, and we used tilt for climbing. After seeing how well your shot worked, we were thinking of ways we could do similar things. I had discussed it with the referees at TC, but there wasn't a clear consensus on how the rules would be interpreted. Therefore, I tried to construct a few questions that I thought might settle the issue for us (and anyone else) prior to our next event.
Congratulations on your win at St. Joseph. See you at MSC!
(Edit: 559 & 560 were supposed to be submitted together as one question, but my fat finger hit the enter button at the wrong time and I couldn't find an "edit" function to correct it.)
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