Are two sets of bumpers necessary? [Archive]

Suitster

26-03-2013, 06:58

Our team had six old robots donated to us from our sponsor, they were from a team that had disbanded (211-MAK), and were from 1999-2005. As some of you may know, the indicator lights back then were rotating emergency lights. Switching from red alliance to blue was as easy as pulling the plastic cover off the light and putting it on another.

For whatever reason, that method was discontinued in favor of making two sets of bumpers.

I propose that we go back to making one set of bumpers, that can be made in any color, as long as the numbers are visible to to a reasonable astute observer. For differentiating between alliances, an LED strip could be mounted, such as http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=073-079

The strip could be mounted to the bumpers, or somewhere else on the exterior of the robot at or near bumper height, so that it would be visible to all sides.

It would take little effort to switch between red and blue.
A team could build one set of "show" bumpers
Bumpers could be mounted more securely than if they need to be removed and replaced quickly

Thoughts?

Cory

26-03-2013, 07:00

We had LED's before (granted smaller and not as bright as what you linked)...they were terrible. You couldn't see them at all.

Keep the colored bumpers. It's the only truly uniform alliance identification.

You don't actually need 2 sets either. You can use bumper "skirts" or utilize fabric that folds back to reveal the second color.

Billfred

26-03-2013, 07:20

You don't actually need 2 sets either. You can use bumper "skirts" or utilize fabric that folds back to reveal the second color.

2815 has done all of these--skirts (2010, 2011), two sets (2012), and reversible (2013).

Build the reversible ones (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2437?); it's so much less stressful in the pits and still looks great!

Al Skierkiewicz

26-03-2013, 07:29

engunneer

26-03-2013, 07:41

Ethan,
The rotating lights were abandoned because they weighed 2 1/2 lbs and reguired about 3-4 amps. One side of the case was also one of the power supply leads. Bumpers are so obvious that even rookie drivers can tell who is on their alliance.

Not to mention the absurd size - it was pretty tough to find a place for it on the bot if you hadn't planned ahead.

In between those years, there have been a number of identifiers.
2008 had a flag you needed to place on your robot. The flag holder was annoying for short robots.
2009 used the trailer field component to identify alliance affiliation
2010 started the bumper colors per alliance.
Bumper colors are fairly superior.

Nate Laverdure

26-03-2013, 07:55

In between those years, there have been a number of identifiers.
2008 had a flag you needed to place on your robot. The flag holder was annoying for short robots.
2009 used the trailer field component to identify alliance affiliation
2010 started the bumper colors per alliance.
Bumper colors are fairly superior.
I'm still waiting for FIRST to adopt my projected pools of colored light idea (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=597549#post597549) :)

Cool bit of FIRST history in that thread, by the way.

ctccromer

26-03-2013, 08:44

Last year's bumpers (that we also used this year) were INCREDIBLY convenient for us. We made one set of blue bumpers, then attached velcro to the back of the top half, and the under-side of the bottom half. Then we just made the fabric for the red bumpers, stapled and glued on some velcro, and were done!

We never have to take our bumpers off other than inspection, and switching colors takes less than 60 seconds! Not to mention it's nice to stick the red fabric on and not have to worry about carrying two sets of bumpers

pfreivald

26-03-2013, 08:51

Despite having about twenty yards of purple cordura wasting away in our storage closet, I'm on-board with bumpers-as-identifiers as well.

Lil' Lavery

26-03-2013, 08:55

Not to mention the absurd size - it was pretty tough to find a place for it on the bot if you hadn't planned ahead.

In between those years, there have been a number of identifiers.
2008 had a flag you needed to place on your robot. The flag holder was annoying for short robots.
2009 used the trailer field component to identify alliance affiliation
2010 started the bumper colors per alliance.
Bumper colors are fairly superior.

2007 also used the flags.
2004-2006 used little LEDs (also served as the robot status light) that nobody could see and made it very difficult to tell which alliance a team was on.

Siri

26-03-2013, 10:06

In between those years, there have been a number of identifiers.
2008 had a flag you needed to place on your robot. The flag holder was annoying for short robots.And at least at our events in 2007, if your flag fell off (like, I don't know, tangled into that completely not-tangle-hazard chained hanging rack), you lost your elevation points.

Bumper colors all the way. If you think the bumper rules are difficult to execute now, just imagine what electrifying* them would do.

*yes, I know, I know. But you get the point.

Abhishek R

26-03-2013, 10:07

Lights are better used for other functions like the camera or displaying any information that the driver might need on the spot without looking at the computer at the driver station. Personally, I don't feel bumpers are a problem, I like the uniformity across an alliance and makes it easy for everyone in the stands to tell. 624 has started using the reversible bumpers this year as well.

Racer26

26-03-2013, 10:19

Nearly everyone who's been around since the rotating light days agrees:

Bumper colors is the best way.

The flags sucked, they fell out of the holders, among other problems.
The LEDs sucked, you couldn't see them in anywhere but the darkest venues
2009's trailer colors weren't too bad, but they're kind of an extension of the bumper colors of 2010-present
and the rotating light, they were ok, but the lenses were easy to crack, and the thing was huge.

ttldomination

26-03-2013, 10:24

2815 has done all of these--skirts (2010, 2011), two sets (2012), and reversible (2013).

Build the reversible ones (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2437?); it's so much less stressful in the pits and still looks great!

Hmm, can you provide a source for 'still looks great!'? I've yet to see a set of bumpers switchable bumpers that look as 'tight' as a single set.

- Sunny G.

Jeff Pahl

26-03-2013, 10:32

As much as I dislike the colored bumpers from an aesthetics perspective, I have to agree with others that they are far and away the easiest way to be able to keep track of which alliance a robot is on. My only complaint is that some colors "just don't look right" on some robots :) Watching Bomb Squad play last weekend with red bumpers just does not seem right....

For the last several years my teams have utilized either Velcro or snap fasteners similar to http://www.joann.com/dritz-heavy-duty-snap-kit/prd34426/ with the base portion screwed into the edge of the plywood. Both have worked great, and we only have to take the bumpers off once for inspection. I keep pushing for us to build a set of "show covers" with the team name on them instead of the numbers, since black looks much nicer on our robot than either red or blue.

The one set of bumpers with alternate color cover makes it so much easier to change colors in a hurry, for example between semi-finals and finals.

Siri

26-03-2013, 10:44

Hmm, can you provide a source for 'still looks great!'? I've yet to see a set of bumpers switchable bumpers that look as 'tight' as a single set.

- Sunny G.Here's (http://wiki.team1640.com/index.php?title=File:DB8_RR_121110_csm-19.jpg) our Rebound Rumble robot at a November off-season last year. (It hasn't changed much since; just driver practice.) Most people cannot tell they're reversible even in person.

vhcook

26-03-2013, 10:44

I came in too late for the rotating light, but the bicycle flags were terrible. They'd hop out of the flag holder at the slightest provocation, and were easily masked by field elements and other robots. The flag holder, which was a dead simple 12" section of 1/2" PVC capped at one end, was also an inspection circus as many teams would forget to attach one to the robot. (Which is why I assumed the bumper rule simplification wasn't going to make inspection much easier. It's hard to get simpler than the flag holder, and folks were getting that wrong.)

As big a nuisance as the bumpers may be, they're still the best system I've seen for making alliance identification blatantly obvious to even the most casual observer and simultaneously making it so you don't have to search the whole robot for the team number. The reversible ones are a pain to make due to a lot of sewing on heavy fabric, but significantly reduce suffering at the competition.

coalhot

26-03-2013, 10:58

Hmm, can you provide a source for 'still looks great!'? I've yet to see a set of bumpers switchable bumpers that look as 'tight' as a single set.

- Sunny G.

Here is 3929's second set of reversible bumpers. They look better on the robot, but unfortunately the people with the cameras haven't uploaded photos yet. I'll add them when they come up.

Also, these bumpers were made by one student, in two days. Our Chestnut Hill bumpers sucked, so he remade them. Pretty fine job.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/224013_4730761547355_929675373_n.jpg

Example of poorly made bumpers... (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/r3k7khrk7pixxca/cfBYgcTtHe/DSC_5057.JPG)

Al Skierkiewicz

26-03-2013, 11:10

I guess I should apologize here as WildStang painted their bumpers tie dye and put our team numbers on them in the beginning. It sounded like a good idea at the time that others took notice of.

Suitster

26-03-2013, 12:47

Okay, so I'm convinced by the consensus. Our team did make the reversible bumpers this year, which would require another attempt to get down pat.

Thanks for the input everyone!

fb39ca4

26-03-2013, 13:16

We've made blue bumpers and red covers for them that we can take on and off.

NXTGeek

26-03-2013, 13:17

My team did this settup last year, and it was a dream... Well-designed bumpers are SO worth it. Here's a video of them in action: http://youtu.be/DlyujQaTLlA
...

EricH

26-03-2013, 16:53

2007 also used the flags.
2004-2006 used little LEDs (also served as the robot status light) that nobody could see and made it very difficult to tell which alliance a team was on.

2006 also had flags. Occasionally one would take a direct hit from a Poof.

I want to say that before the rotating lights, teams used large pieces of red/blue material to mark alliances--I also want to say that it was laminated paper. But that was WAY back in 1999 or so, so my memory could be way off.