View Full Version : Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
sanddrag
29-03-2013, 15:22
It seems like this sort of a thread is becoming an annual thing for me. So, here we go for 2013...
This week, 696 is here at the Inland Empire regional having a wonderful time at this new event, but there's one thing that really grinds my gears (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100119021136/familyguy/images/c/c5/Grinds-my-gears1.jpg). First, let me say that I have the utmost respect for our safety inspectors. These are all qualified folks who are trying to look out for our best interests, but at this event, I take serious issue with one of the mandated practices they have imposed on all competing teams.
The safety inspectors are requiring all teams to loudly yell "ROBOT!" any time they are moving their robot within the pit area and to or from the field. There are several issues with the practice of yelling "ROBOT!":
It's not necessary
It's arrogant
It's obnoxious
It's rude
It creates excessive noise
It startles bystanders
It turns off the general public
It starts a chain reaction of other teams yelling for no apparent reason
With repetition, it becomes white noise and loses all meaning
It does little to make anyone safer in any way, and may even create a hazard
It gives teams a false sense of entitlement that others will drop everything to move out of their way.
It's safety theater
Aside from my issues with teams yelling "ROBOT!", it's not right for any FIRST volunteer event or official to require my students to verbally say something they are strongly opposed to saying. At least three times already today, my team was called out for not yelling "ROBOT!" when they are moving the robot. (Mind you, we received the #1 Pit Safety recognition at Long Beach in 2012 and 2013, without yelling of any sort).
Some of you may ask, "Well how can you move a robot safely without yelling 'ROBOT!' ?" It's simple. We're never in a rush, we look where we're going, and if for some reason we do encounter some impediment to our travel (which happens only rarely), we politely and in a reasonable volume say "excuse me" followed by a "thanks."
So, who is ready to end this absurd practice of yelling "ROBOT!" ?
notmattlythgoe
29-03-2013, 15:26
:raises hand:
I always thought that you could yell robot only if it was preceded by Excuse Me/Us. I think the only time yelling ROBOT! by itself is ok is if you are in need to get to a match immediately; otherwise, be polite about it.
xSAWxBLADEx
29-03-2013, 15:27
We have a megaphone that we say, "Exuse us, robot coming through." or "Please hold up, robot coming through."
? Is this a new requirement?
Last year at Chesapeake I spoke to the green shirts and asked them to talk to teams on their rounds and request they put a person in front of their robot during movement through the pits, to tap people on the shoulder, etc. No shouting of robot. I think it worked well.
Last weekend in Boston I was wearing a blue shirt. While in the pits during interviews, I would politely grab someone on the team coming through and ask teams to NOT yell this. They always apologized.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106255
Quite surprising that this is being mandated at IE. I feel I heard much less of it this year at Long Beach (a positive trend), will see if that holds up at other events. I've certainly instructed my own team to never do this.
It's not so much the act of yelling ROBOT but the other behaviors that inevitably accompany it, as OP has clearly pointed out.
notmattlythgoe
29-03-2013, 15:31
There was a team at a regional this year that had 2 people walk in front of the robot holding caution tape between them with blinking lights alternating yelling "ROBOT IN TRANSIT!" every 2 seconds.
Ido_Wolf
29-03-2013, 15:32
You guys wouldn't make it through a regional in Israel. Working in the pit area is like standing in a heavy metal concert for 3 days straight :P
For all it's worth, I support this suggestion
Wayne Doenges
29-03-2013, 15:32
My respnose when I hear someone yell "ROBOT!!" is "Yes it is a robot"
*raises hand to support NOT yelling ROBOT*
Mark Sheridan
29-03-2013, 15:33
Quite surprising that this is being mandated at IE. I feel I heard much less of it this year at Long Beach (a positive trend), will see if that holds up at other events. I've certainly instructed my own team to never do this.
It's not so much the act of yelling ROBOT but the other behaviors that inevitably accompany it, as OP has clearly pointed out.
And yet some of our students still do it. We gotta throw this into the behavior contract or something. Is this in the team handbook?
Signed.
I caused a bit of a kerfuffle recently when I attempted to get my team to refrain from participating in this nonsense.
It helps nobody and undermines any credibility the safety advisors might have.
artdutra04
29-03-2013, 15:40
I absolutely hate it when people yell "ROBOT!"
Do you walk in front of cars and yell "PEDESTRIAN!"? Do you walk in front of a train and yell "COMMUTER!"?
Whatever happened to "Excuse me!" or "Pardon me!"? :confused:
M.O'Reilly
29-03-2013, 15:47
I absolutely hate it when people yell "ROBOT!"
Do you walk in front of cars and yell "PEDESTRIAN!"? Do you walk in front of a train and yell "COMMUTER!"?
Whatever happened to "Excuse me!" or "Pardon me!"? :confused:
I think it's more like a bus driving through Times Square on NYE with a megaphone blaring "BUS!", but I get your point. ;)
I mostly agree, the yelling without niceties attached should stop. I don't mind if a safety captain wants to escort (you know, one of the kids in the orange vest and hard hat) us through the pits, but there's a polite way and a rude way of doing that.
buildmaster5000
29-03-2013, 15:47
:Raises hand in support:
The pits are plenty loud. Any extra noise just doesn't help the problem
Jay O'Donnell
29-03-2013, 15:49
I personally find the yelling of ROBOT as tradition. its not hurting anyone, and it gets the job done faster than quietly asking everyone to move. If you tried to get through the pits of GSR by quietly asking every single person to move, it would take 10 minutes to get through. Its just one of those things that makes a competition what it is.
100% in support, yelling robot is obnoxious. We've found that just telling people,
"Excuse us" in an indoor voice works, and usually people are more polite to you. We had no problem at our last regional doing this, and we got from point A>B as fast as if we were yelling "ROBOT".
wesbass23
29-03-2013, 15:54
Similar to what someone above posted, our team has sometimes taken to sarcastically yelling "human" as we transport the robot to and from matches XD
My question for you is how do you fix the issue? As a member of the drive-team as both a student and now coach I can tell you it can be incredibly difficult making it through the mass of people milling about in front of pits. Some of these people can be incredibly clueless as to what is going on around them and sometimes it takes a loud shout to snap them out of their daydream or pull them out of the text they are sending. While yelling "robot" does get annoying and and sometimes comes across as rude, it gets the job done and gets the robot to the match on time.
nlknauss
29-03-2013, 15:59
I also support this. It's easy to excited shouting "robot" but it's just as easy to say "excuse me" as you move through the pit with your robot.
Mark Sheridan
29-03-2013, 16:04
I personally the yelling of ROBOT as tradition. its not hurting anyone, and it gets the job done faster than quietly asking everyone to move. If you tried to get through the pits of GSR by quietly asking every single person to move, it would take 10 minutes to get through. Its just one of those things that makes a competition what it is.
I strongly disagree with this statement. I have been in the most packed concert mosh pits and "excuse me" still works. You don't have to say "excuse me" quietly, often you have yell it at a regional. When its noisy (like queuing for a match), I think most people expect you to be yelling. If someone wont move because you said "excuse me," they are not going to moving if you say "robot." If an indoor voice works, why not use an indoor voice?
Excessive car horn honking in New York got banned for the same reasons. Certainly it was not a tradition that added to the New York atmosphere.
I hate "ROBOT!"
I fell over laughing at 2 kids at the end of the day Saturday at Wisconsin. One was riding on the cart, paddling with a broom while the other pushed, yelling "ROWBOAT!"
People on my team also sometimes yell HUMAN at each other in jest when trying to get into our pit to do something :p
Nate Laverdure
29-03-2013, 16:25
Warning: Some uses of this document may also be arrogant and rude. Think before you act.
The pits are plenty loud. Any extra noise just doesn't help the problem
Pfft, I tried to get my team to stop yelling "robot" only to be told back that "The pits are a loud place anyways. If you're looking for quiet, the pits aren't somewhere for you to be." Guess the team more or less needs to find a new Captain and Driver... Excuse me usually worked for me transporting the robot, and it helped that at Greater Kansas City there was plenty of space to maneuver a cart.
I personally the yelling of ROBOT as tradition. its not hurting anyone, and it gets the job done faster than quietly asking everyone to move. If you tried to get through the pits of GSR by quietly asking every single person to move, it would take 10 minutes to get through. Its just one of those things that makes a competition what it is.
This is FAR from a tradition. I don't ever remember teams yelling ROBOT! in 2005 and earlier when I was in high school and we had no issues moving our robot to/from the pits. This practice seemed to (wrongly) evolve while I was away from FIRST from 2006-2009.
Sean Raia
29-03-2013, 16:45
I personally the yelling of ROBOT as tradition. its not hurting anyone, and it gets the job done faster than quietly asking everyone to move. If you tried to get through the pits of GSR by quietly asking every single person to move, it would take 10 minutes to get through. Its just one of those things that makes a competition what it is.
I agree, and it has never really bothered me.
The problem is when people yell it TOO loud, TOO frequently.
twetherbee
29-03-2013, 16:46
Signed.
Richard Wallace
29-03-2013, 17:01
... at Greater Kansas City there was plenty of space to maneuver a cart.And plenty of seating, and plenty of dancing room, and plenty of pancakes. KC has a great venue and one of the FRC community's finest volunteer corps. I also recall seeing plenty of Championship calibre teams compete at KC in recent seasons. :)
Some other FRC event venues are much tighter on space, and queue crossings can become dangerous, requiring special attention to traffic flow timing in some spots. [Queuing leads, please jump in here.] However, even in those cases, yelling "ROBOT!" generally does more harm than good, IMHO.
I support sanddrag's petition.
I sign the petition. It is just rude.
Excessive car horn honking in New York got banned for the same reasons. Certainly it was not a tradition that added to the New York atmosphere.
Very topical.
From last month: "NYC ends 30 year experiment with "Don't Honk" signs" (http://www.npr.org/2013/02/12/171837301/new-york-city-ends-30-year-experiment-with-dont-honk-signs)
I'm not really against hearing the shout of "ROBOT", because I know that robots usually have to be moved frequently and urgently and it signals my need to get out of the way.
The pits can become very noisy and crowded and it becomes hard to hear quiet students trying to make their way through the pit. Shouting "Excuse me", although polite and sometimes works, is not very explicit (are they calling to ask me a question? Get out of the way?).
Maybe it's the golfer in me, but I know when I hear "FORE!" yelled on a course, I put my head down and turn by back to the sound. It becomes instinctual. If I heard "Excuse me, ball coming towards you!" it would take longer to process.
Hearing "Heads Up" is even worse!
The same way with "ROBOT!", its a cue for me to get out of the way. Otherwise, I need to determine what I'm being queried for.
I don't like when it's abused (ie people shouting ROBOT when no robot is coming through), but I respect the sense of urgency when urgency exists, and I've made the announcement before.
omsahmad
29-03-2013, 17:58
This is one of those things that grinds my gears, too. The person in front of the robot in our team says robot using their 'inside voice' directly next to the person that is in our way.
Mark Sheridan
29-03-2013, 18:24
Very topical.
From last month: "NYC ends 30 year experiment with "Don't Honk" signs" (http://www.npr.org/2013/02/12/171837301/new-york-city-ends-30-year-experiment-with-dont-honk-signs)
Yeah like this:
http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/taxis-banned-from-honking-in-nyc-what-a-relief-or-good-grief/question-2245763/
Glad I live in So Cal, we have obnoxious drivers but no one uses their horns around here.
The ban is not a solution for New York nor would a ban help in FIRST. I certainly would not want to curb ones freedom of speech which is a heart of the above article. Certainly I would not want to deny my right to say certain behavior is obnoxious. Going back to sand drag's original post, mandating people to yell robot is just as bad.
Is honking a lot making the world safer, no. Could it be used to communicate displeasure at another driver, yes (so 1st amendment?). For yelling "robot", its over use does not make things safer, as people ignore honking, so are people going to ignore "robot". A few cases I noticed yelling "robot" is used to express displeasure of crowding a pit lane.
I could see "robot" working if used for rare circumstances (like a team distracted and blocking during a team photo) but not a the frequency rate I have observed.
*raises hand in support of petition*
I should point out though that many times when students yell "ROBOT" or "ROBOT COMING THROUGH" it's because they are going by a pit that has an unusual number of people standing in the front. As a student at the Philly Regional, I don't remember doing it much, but I remember having to do it a few times when I was going by a pit that had 20 people around it. Tapping everyone's shoulder and saying "excuse me" just wasn't gonna cut it.
GP goes both ways. Yelling "ROBOT" is annoying, rude, and unnecessary. But so is having too many people in your pit, and not allowing the team to get by.
Jay Trzaskos
29-03-2013, 18:51
Can't teams just try a little harder to give yourselves adequate time to queue for matches? Maybe have a drive team member or coach walk ten paces ahead and ask people politely to step out of the way? I understand that there are going to be moments that you're going to be in a rush, and if that's the case feel free to speak up. But if you're not in the next match or two, you don't have to rush to the field and there is absolutely no need to shout anything.
But if your team is always late for their next match, and just barely making it on the field, then you've got a time management problem you need to deal with. Yelling ROBOT!! a thousand times over isn't going to do anything to fix it.
Agreed with all of the above. We're not part of the "ROBOT!" crowd. Really we should petition for a bicycle bell to be included in the KOP and maybe a reference to what it's for in the manual :D
Brandon Zalinsky
29-03-2013, 19:12
I personally the yelling
I accidentally the verb.
Also, at busy regionals, the only thing that works is yelling "robot". Quite simply, tapping people on the shoulder and saying "excuse me" doesn't work.
DonRotolo
29-03-2013, 19:13
Consider this petition signed.
Michael Hill
29-03-2013, 19:25
ROBOT!!!!
*rams robot into your ankles*
WATCH OUT!! ROBOT!!!
Also, at busy regionals, the only thing that works is yelling "robot". Quite simply, tapping people on the shoulder and saying "excuse me" doesn't work.
“Those that say it can’t be done should get out of the way of those doing it” Chinese Proverb
Sorry, got to disagree with you. We had a 64 team regional last year doing just that. The safety advisors got the word out.
Again, the key is to have someone at the front of the bot as you move through the pits.
But I'm repeating myself. I will re-post this excellence advice from Brandon Holley: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1139404&postcount=35
Yep. Signed.
I just find it plain annoying to have "ROBOT!" shouted everywhere all the time. Not only is it obnoxious but it just gets old after hearing it 100 times in the pits. An "Excuse me! Watch out!" Im perfectly fine with, but just yelling the word "Robot!".... come on guys. Were all smart people, we can do a little better I think.
I'm in. I was at L.A. on Saturday, and while it wasn't being yelled (per se), it was being said.
My usual response? Seeing as I was usually standing where there was plenty of room to maneuver around me, I just stood where I was. If someone had asked me to move politely, I most certainly would have, especially if the area was crowded.
I've said this before, but if the safety people are practically ordering teams to do this, do it as loud as possible, as close to their ears as reasonably possible, at every excuse, and nowhere else. They'll get the idea of how annoying it can be really fast. Bonus for then offering them hearing protection, BTW.
(There was also an air horn in the L.A. Regional stands, which was rather annoying and is banned by the Administrative Manual--but at least the user used it quietly and at appropriate times.)
Christopher149
29-03-2013, 20:28
At the events in Michigan I attended, they were almost requiring us to yell robot, which definitely is a change from the past.
caseybarisax14
29-03-2013, 20:34
My friend and me raise our hands in agreement :)
*signed*
when I hear "FORE!" yelled on a course, I put my head down and turn by back to the sound. It becomes instinctual.
This analogy is far from the situation in the pits. If it was I imagine you wouldn't continue to react this way to "FORE!"
I also want to re-iterate the sending 1-2 members *in front* of the bot to help part the crowd is usually all that's necessary.
I also think in terms of making real change with this, then the focus should be on everyone in the pits *not* moving robots being aware and politely helping part the crowds.
bulbajackel
29-03-2013, 21:07
No, just no. I am saying this the most respectfully that I can but it is loud at this competition, and we can't simply be quiet (at STL for example). Yelling "excuse me!" may be seen as rude to certain people and yelling robot appears as it has been included in the FIRST culture. sorry to be the odd one out but it doesn't hurt anyone saying that... Maybe they shouldn't be down in the pits anyway because all they are being is a liability. Once the pits aren't congested with a lot, I mean A LOT of people then it would be easier to say excuse me to that smaller crowd. </rant>
gabrielau23
29-03-2013, 21:10
I feel like at the larger regionals it's sometimes necessary. Sometimes two students will walk in front of the cart and ask, but if they just can't hear, we resort to Robot coming through! However, I've never heard anyone on our team abuse it unless it was a jest in the stands, in which case it was clearly joking. I mean, sometimes I feel like it's--necessary. I don't know, but at 64 team regionals, there are a LOT of people in the lanes not just because they have too many people in the pits but just from the sheer amount of teams there.
Alan Anderson
29-03-2013, 21:18
I'll gladly add my name to the list.
My biggest objection to the practice of yelling "ROBOT" is that it is so often done by someone who isn't where the robot is. Twice last year I was talking with people in their team's pit when suddenly they yelled "ROBOT!" in my face. My immediate reaction to that sort of thing is to jump backwards out of their way. If the robot had actually been nearby, I'd probably have collided with it. The first time, the robot had already safely passed, and the person shouting was echoing someone trailing it. The second time, the robot wasn't even in the same pit row as the person who startled me. I was more prepared for it after that and didn't jump again, but still the call of "ROBOT!" by a person not actually with the robot actively takes attention away from the moving robot itself.
My second-biggest objection to it is that even when it's done by someone accompanying the robot, it's usually done by someone pushing the robot. The alarm is being sounded from behind, where there is no longer a need to warn anyone. It is so much more effective to have a vanguard walking a few meters ahead to clear a path.
It seems that the common practice is to treat the robot like a mother duck and have the rest of the drive team trail after it. That's fine for the people using the robot to make room for them to walk, but it's rude to everyone else along the way.
For those who argue that saying "excuse me" to the crowd doesn't work, you're missing the point. You don't broadcast it to "the crowd". You say it to the specific people who are in the way.
Here is why I enjoy the yelling of robot
-Creative
-Spirited
- If done correctly parts a sea of bystanders in one shout
The reasons I don't see why this is an issue
-The pit is a loud place you should be suspecting louder than a shout "robot"
- It is a loud vocal warning sign of precious cargo going through
all in all yelling "robot" has come as a tradition for my teams drive team. We are creative with how we word it, we are always polite and we part seas of bystanders.
I propose the alternative route of placing signs that say. "In case of robot shout clear path way". Also if you are complaining about the noise well why not complain about the guy next to you ripping plexi-glass with a circular saw or the gal across the isle beating on a piece of metal with a hammer. The jist is if you don't loud noises why not wear recommended ear protection
Reading with interest and general approval, I submit that the phrase used should be "excuse, us, please." And directed to individuals seems like it would be the best tactic. Please put people before the robot, both in the procession and downstream of the path. I've got enough trouble with bumper rules already. Let's not risk their requirement on our carts!::safety::
Here is why I enjoy the yelling of robot
This post contains numerous logical fallacies that have already been enumerated in this thread.
three_d_dave
29-03-2013, 22:27
Signed.
An alternate approach could be setting up a 30 inch wide strip in the middle of the aisles for movement only - as in, if you are not going somewhere get out of the aisle.
There's already a rule about wearing safety glasses, adding an aisle seems reasonable.
Making the aisles one-way for robots and the other way for people would also be good. If robot traffic comes from only one direction and people are facing it (and wrong way robot draggers called on it) traffic should move along.
Or perhaps we can start yelling HUMAN!
Dave S.
Mark Sheridan
29-03-2013, 22:29
Signed.
An alternate approach could be setting up a 30 inch wide strip in the middle of the aisles for movement only - as in, if you are not going somewhere get out of the aisle.
There's already a rule about wearing safety glasses, adding an aisle seems reasonable.
Making the aisles one-way for robots and the other way for people would also be good. If robot traffic comes from only one direction and people are facing it (and wrong way robot draggers called on it) traffic should move along.
Or perhaps we can start yelling HUMAN!
Dave S.
That would make life easier for everyone. I like it!
Totally agreed.
At Inland Empire we were also asked to shout "Robot". And we still don't.... "Excuse mes" and "thanks" work great. And usually the way is clear enough.
sanddrag
29-03-2013, 22:38
Today, I saw a few teams loudly yell Robot! to the general crowd then proceed to nearly mow down pedestrians with it. One team even placed their hands on members of another and pushed them out of the way. And this was on a return trip to the pits!
It's the sense of entitlement to immediate robot right of way that is the core of the issue here, compounded by the yelling.
AdamHeard
29-03-2013, 22:41
The culture of yelling robot came about the same time teams started actively pursuing the safety award.
It's unnecessary and highly annoying.
Consider me signed too! When I started robotics in 2004 no one yelled robot, maybe every once in awhile with a large group but you never heard it. My senior year in 2007 is when I heard teams starting to use it. It was new and kind of got on peoples nerves but we just let it happen. Now a days I know for we I hear it yelled so often I kind of just tune it out. I agree with what everyone else has said that it is not needed and asking politely, with someone in front of the car saying it, to move is the way to go.
The culture of yelling robot came about the same time teams started actively pursuing the safety award.
I don't get why there's a safety award. I think that the other rewards for being safe (such as finger/limb retention) should be sufficient motivators.
Safety is not a competition.
Johnny_5
29-03-2013, 23:18
An alternate approach could be setting up a 30 inch wide strip in the middle of the aisles for movement only - as in, if you are not going somewhere get out of the aisle.
Not to be "that guy" or anything, but I do believe you defined the concept of an aisle. They're there to provide a clear pathway to where you want to go.
As far as the whole yelling "robot" thing goes, I pretty much told everyone on our team to not do it. It just contributes to the overall noise and chaos, and with 4 other people from every direction, it causes unnecessary confusion. "Excuse me" and "Pardon me" have been around for generations, and they have shown to be quite effective. A slight tap on the shoulder and some manners go a long way, we don't want to scare away people from FIRST. Being polite to a total stranger can go a long way, and wouldn't it be neat to overhear a conversation between event sponsors leaving the building that went something like, "Wow, with how busy these students are and how stressful competition is, they are really polite."
Another thing, at the regional I attended, late Thursday afternoon the "robot crossing guards" began to develop. It consisted of a group of 3 or 4 students on each side of a door way (one that could have easily accommodated 2 robots and foot traffic). These students had reflective vests and light batons and proceeded in an attempt to direct traffic. They would only let certain people through at a time, robots had the right of way, and they were consistently stopping traffic from one direction to allow the other to go through. This created a bottleneck and we we almost missed a match because they wouldn't let us through. While this works great in theory, it doesn't work in practice. And honestly, I was surprised that they weren't asked to cease this practice by event volunteers.
I'll sign the petition, but I don't think we need a rule against it, some just need a reminder of what gracious professionalism is.
The non-yelling method works, and it reduces the odds you upset or injure a guest in the pits. Think about the cub scouts and brownie troops following the student ambassadors around like ducklings, the proud grandparents who might not be terribly quick on their feet anymore, the random elected officials, and the school administrators someone is trying to convince to allow a new team to form at their school. Think about the mentor in the wheelchair that you're about to run down because you can't see them from behind your robot and cart, and consider the team members with sports injuries that are trying to get to their pits on crutches. They've all got every right to be there, and we are expected to be demonstrating gracious professionalism toward them.
And having brought up gracious professionalism, it's time for the grandma test. If your hypothetical grandmother was visiting the competition, and came to the pits to get a close look at your work, how would she feel if she got driven out of the aisle by screaming students half a dozen times? How would she react if she saw you doing that to someone else? Mine would have been appalled and not terribly happy with me. Consequently, I will not be yelling ROBOT and I will continue to encourage my students to use gentle path-clearing methods.
Zebra_Fact_Man
29-03-2013, 23:40
I cannot believe I am actually reading a thread dedicated to this. This is by far one of the most ridiculous proposals I have ever heard, and to top that off, I can't believe that so many people are in favor of it!
Maybe it's just a Michigan thing, but the pits seem to be kind of a hang out area for almost 50% of the teams here in my area, and it would be IMPOSSIBLE to get from point A to point B in a timely matter without this practice. Heck, I have difficulty navigating the pits as an individual!
But lets go over and examine the proposed reasons for the heck of it:
1) It's not necessary - To be determined.
2) It's arrogant - This is a competition, isn't it? Although, I'd use the words "confident" or "certain" before "arrogant".
3) It's obnoxious - Is yelling "fire" or "rape" or "I surrender" obnoxious? It get's the job done, which is what its supposed to do.
4) It's rude - not really. it is THE MOST efficient way to tell all people within ear's range that there is a robot headed their way and to get out of the way.
5) It creates excessive noise. - Music in the grand stands is excessive noise. Pit announcements are sometimes excessive noise. Yelling robot is useful noise.
6) It startles bystanders - maybe if the bystanders are elementary school children who've never been to a robotics competition before.
7) It turns off the general public - how? EVERY group of people that has visited my team in the pits, when hearing "robot", immediately knows how to respond. I have NEVER heard a visitor comment negatively toward this practice.
8) It starts a chain reaction of other teams yelling for no apparent reason - this statement assumes "for no apparent reason", which has yet to be proven. And if useful, this chain reaction is a good thing.
9) With repetition, it becomes white noise and loses all meaning - no it doesn't. If I yell robot, then get out of the way; here comes a robot! If robotless people yelled robot, THEN it would lose its meaning.
10) It does little to make anyone safer in any way, and may even create a hazard - this is simply false. It informs everyone within ear's reach, as stated before, that a robot's a coming. Prevents people from getting hit by a robot.
11) It gives teams a false sense of entitlement that others will drop everything to move out of their way - well they should. GP? We got a match and need to get somewhere and you don't. If you need to get somewhere with your robot, then we shouldn't be in you way either.
It's safety theater - I suppose. Oops. Oh well.
In short, if no one was in the way, you wouldn't need to yell robot. But it's simply not the case, and yelling robot gets the job done more efficiently and effectively than any other method.
TLDR; yelling robot tells everyone around you that you and your robot is coming and they need to get out of the way ASAP. Exactly what it's supposed to do, in the most efficient manner possible.
CLandrum3081
30-03-2013, 00:13
I have to respectfully disagree (to a point). Minnesota 10K Lakes has 63 teams. "ROBOT" is the only thing that gets people to move, and if you do anything else, other teams accuse you of trying to take their leg off, even with other people walking ahead and saying "excuse me".
Sorry, but in the 10K pits, you have to yell for the person next to you to hear what you're saying. We have no choice but to yell "ROBOT". Smaller events are easier - Northern Lights, with about 40 teams, had no one yelling "ROBOT" because it wasn't necessary.
Would I prefer if we didn't have to do it in order to not be yelled at by others while coming through? Heck yeah. But there's too many people in the pit - and yelling is the only thing that gets anyone's attention without taking ten minutes to get through ten feet. It's that packed in there. I'm so glad I'm not on drive team this year.
I want to end the shouting too - once out of the pits and in the hall, the yelling stops. Perhaps when we're in the pits, we don't listen and somehow think standing in the walkway until we're screamed at is a good idea.
For certain regionals, the shouting can't end until certain other things change, too.
Yelling robot is rude. But teams at 10K seem to think not yelling it is even more rude.
Alan Anderson
30-03-2013, 00:23
Maybe it's just a Michigan thing, but the pits seem to be kind of a hang out area for almost 50% of the teams here in my area, and it would be IMPOSSIBLE to get from point A to point B in a timely matter without this practice. Heck, I have difficulty navigating the pits as an individual!
I propose that the solution to overcrowded pit areas is not to add to the noise and chaos, but to reduce it.
8) It starts a chain reaction of other teams yelling for no apparent reason - this statement assumes "for no apparent reason", which has yet to be proven. And if useful, this chain reaction is a good thing.
9) With repetition, it becomes white noise and loses all meaning - no it doesn't. If I yell robot, then get out of the way; here comes a robot! If robotless people yelled robot, THEN it would lose its meaning.
The chain reaction complaint doesn't assume no apparent reason, it observes one. Someone who is not accompanying a robot has no apparent reason to be shouting ROBOT! at all. The chain reaction isn't useful precisely because robotless people are yelling and making it lose its meaning.
11) It gives teams a false sense of entitlement that others will drop everything to move out of their way - well they should. GP? We got a match and need to get somewhere and you don't. If you need to get somewhere with your robot, then we shouldn't be in you way either.
You're joking, right? Please tell me you're joking.
TLDR; yelling robot tells everyone around you that you and your robot is coming and they need to get out of the way ASAP. Exactly what it's supposed to do, in the most efficient manner possible.
The big failure with that is that you don't need to tell everyone around you that they need to get out of the way. You only need to tell the people who are in your way. The most efficient way to do that is to walk ahead of the robot and ask them to move. A general shout of ROBOT! doesn't give a good indication of which way you're trying to go, and doesn't help people clear the path you want to take.
Mark Sheridan
30-03-2013, 00:25
I cannot believe I am actually reading a thread dedicated to this. This is by far one of the most ridiculous proposals I have ever heard, and to top that off, I can't believe that so many people are in favor of it!
Here is my rebuttal:
1) It's not necessary - go to a crowded Costco or grocery store and see how many people yell "shopping cart"
2) It's arrogant - Yelling robot is blatantly saying that you want people to move instead of you, the right thing is to give the person the opportunity to decide to be polite and move out of their own kindness.
3) It's obnoxious - Don't even think of comparing this to yelling "fire", a robot is not going to be that dangerous, besides one should be control of one robot, again got to a grocery store and observe this. The robot on a cart is not that important, thus yelling "robot" is obnoxious
4) It's rude - most people do not appreciate getting yelled in ear. If you have to at least say "excuse me."
5) It creates excessive noise. - music in the pits is a hinderance, especially when you are try to hear a air leak. This does not excuse rude behavior.
6) It startles bystanders - so most of us are elementary school children? Again most people will be startled when yelled at.
7) It turns off the general public - i have guests comment negatively a lot. That because no other industry behaves this way, except maybe rock concerts and security at rock concerts don't have a sterling reputations (technically a broad spectrum of fantastic to intolerable actions).
8) It starts a chain reaction of other teams yelling for no apparent reason - I lost count how many time people yell "robot" after the robot has past. No one needs an entire team to yell when one person would be enough and that person should at lease say "excuse me."
9) With repetition, it becomes white noise and loses all meaning - I am ignoring it, my team is ignoring it, my guests are learning to ignore it because its yelled so frequently and often without a robot near us.
10) It does little to make anyone safer in any way, and may even create a hazard - see 9.
11) It gives teams a false sense of entitlement that others will drop everything to move out of their way - everyone has their own priorities, yelling to show yours is more important is rude. Again you have to let others decide that you have greater priority, denying that shows that you don't care what they think, you just want them to move and thats rude in my opinion.
I really do think quieter pits would fix this. I really like pits in separate buildings even if its a hike to get where you are going.
at one competition I went to watch they told the teams to tap on the shoulder of people and ask them to move, people do NOT like to be touched, also there are large groups of people and most of the time (from my 4 years of being on a FIRST Team) don't move unless you are forward about it, and also yelling ROBOT gives everyone ahead a heads up that they need to move out of the way. A lot of the people in the pits Even more so on Saturdays than Friday's the public are in the pits looking at the robots and they don't know anything that's going on, but the yelling of ROBOT gets their attention so they are able to move out of your way so that you can get through without having to stop for every single person that is staining in the isle way
I cannot believe I am actually reading a thread dedicated to this. This is by far one of the most ridiculous proposals I have ever heard, and to top that off, I can't believe that so many people are in favor of it!
Maybe it's just a Michigan thing, but the pits seem to be kind of a hang out area for almost 50% of the teams here in my area, and it would be IMPOSSIBLE to get from point A to point B in a timely matter without this practice. Heck, I have difficulty navigating the pits as an individual!
I agree with you here in Michigan if you don't yell robot it will take you 10 minutes just to get to queuing or from the field to your pit just to get through the crowed of people
Kevin_Morris
30-03-2013, 02:30
It is silly that this petition exists... but I'm in complete favor of it.
My team has never yelled "robot" while on our way to a match. If there are people in our way, typically an "Excuse us!" works fairly well.
As a tactician who is typically always in the pit walking around or talking to different teams, I find it a fairly annoying practice. With so many teams that don't do it that successfully get to matches on time, I find it hard to believe people are able to find arguments to support it. Then again, this is hardly worth arguing about period, or writing a post much longer than this one in regards to it. Life goes on.
BHS_STopping
30-03-2013, 02:46
In Arizona, whenever we were pushing our robot around we would just have somebody about 10 feet in front saying "Excuse us, we're moving our robot." People would generally react far faster and act less surprised this way.
To be perfectly honest, I feel like condoning shouting by rowdy teenagers is something we should just not do. It just does not encourage an air of professionalism.
GaryVoshol
30-03-2013, 07:28
A girl was leading her team down the hall yesterday yelling "Robot" with no one anywhere nearby. As we finally passed each other, I asked her who she was yelling at.
And no, not all safety inspectors tell teams that they must yell "Robot". I was eating with a few of them last week and it came up - and they definitely did not encourage it.
I'm not going to sign a petition to ban the yelling of "Robot". But I will remind people of the story of the boy who cried "Wolf". Another example is the highway signs that tell you for several miles that a lane is closed, yet when you get to the site it's wide open. Yell "Robot" too much - which I believe is the case - and it just becomes more of the background noise and gets ignored. It no longer has any effectiveness.
Carolyn_Grace
30-03-2013, 08:20
At the events in Michigan I attended, they were almost requiring us to yell robot, which definitely is a change from the past.
If this happens at the FIRST in Michigan State Championship, someone please come find me. As the Volunteer Coordinator, I can quietly and politely talk to the Safety Advisers to make sure that we're not requiring teams this of teams.
Shouting loud noise over more loud noise does NOT help people listen more. Two quick stories:
At Troy District this weekend the pits are in a completely different room than the field. It's a pretty chill event, the music is not too loud and there is PLENTY of space for teams to get through when queuing for their matches. And yet, teams are yelling, "ROBOT!" at the top of their lungs.
What happens is that when LOTS of people yell the same thing, you start to naturally just not hear them. Which makes for a MORE dangerous situation. My response, once I notice them yelling, is usually, "'Excuse me,' works much better. Please don't yell at me."
To put it in perspective:
The Boilermaker Regional has pits, field and stands all in one big giant room that echoes. In my ten years of participating in FIRST it was the LOUDEST event that I ever attended. The music was insanely loud. The crowd was cheering like crazy all weekend. And the pits had power tools working constantly.
Not ONE team at BMR yelled "ROBOT!"
Indiana hospitality, I suppose. I saw teams walking through pits with robots carefully, always saying, "Excuse me," if someone was in their way, and here's the kicker: NO ONE got hurt.
I have never heard of anyone saving someone from injury by shouting, "ROBOT!" in their ear.
Tetraman
30-03-2013, 08:52
Is an email being written to FIRST headquarters? Because otherwise this thread is going to do nothing. I guarantee that the vast majority of teams that shout "robot" do not visit CD and/or are just following trends they picked up from other teams or what they are being told.
bulbajackel
30-03-2013, 10:17
Here is my rebuttal:
1) It's not necessary - go to a crowded Costco or grocery store and see how many people yell "shopping cart"
2) It's arrogant - Yelling robot is blatantly saying that you want people to move instead of you, the right thing is to give the person the opportunity to decide to be polite and move out of their own kindness.
3) It's obnoxious - Don't even think of comparing this to yelling "fire", a robot is not going to be that dangerous, besides one should be control of one robot, again got to a grocery store and observe this. The robot on a cart is not that important, thus yelling "robot" is obnoxious
4) It's rude - most people do not appreciate getting yelled in ear. If you have to at least say "excuse me."
5) It creates excessive noise. - music in the pits is a hinderance, especially when you are try to hear a air leak. This does not excuse rude behavior.
6) It startles bystanders - so most of us are elementary school children? Again most people will be startled when yelled at.
7) It turns off the general public - i have guests comment negatively a lot. That because no other industry behaves this way, except maybe rock concerts and security at rock concerts don't have a sterling reputations (technically a broad spectrum of fantastic to intolerable actions).
8) It starts a chain reaction of other teams yelling for no apparent reason - I lost count how many time people yell "robot" after the robot has past. No one needs an entire team to yell when one person would be enough and that person should at lease say "excuse me."
9) With repetition, it becomes white noise and loses all meaning - I am ignoring it, my team is ignoring it, my guests are learning to ignore it because its yelled so frequently and often without a robot near us.
10) It does little to make anyone safer in any way, and may even create a hazard - see 9.
11) It gives teams a false sense of entitlement that others will drop everything to move out of their way - everyone has their own priorities, yelling to show yours is more important is rude. Again you have to let others decide that you have greater priority, denying that shows that you don't care what they think, you just want them to move and thats rude in my opinion.
I really do think quieter pits would fix this. I really like pits in separate buildings even if its a hike to get where you are going.
Let me address this simply, why do you think its rude? I see if its rude if you seen a team yell if the walkways are clear... but in most cases theres a minority doing that.
Second problem: can we say Bill of Rights violation? The word robot hasn't harmed you or anyone in any way, allowing organizations to limit our speech will do a lot more.
I wish more FIRST volunteers were here to comment but they prefer robot because it is the fastest way, even if a team is late getting to the field. Honestly, they do have greater priority of other people, its not the team that thinks that, its whoever created the match sequence.
All who thinks this petition is moot say "I"
Edit: To the many people who say they are ignoring the word intentionally: you are the problem, honestly, we wouldn't need to say it if you weren't in the way and the fact that you aren't going to move on purpose is arrogant and shouldn't be done
Suggestions to team leaders, experienced roboteers, mentors:
1. Coach our younger members to use common sense. Speak in appropriate volume with courtesy.
2. Use humor if you do need to be loud. It will dissolve misunderstandings. I love some of the creative ideas mentioned in this thread.
3. Do it with a smile on your face and look at the people you are trying to get their attention.
Lead by example... And our next generation will follow...
iVanDuzer
30-03-2013, 11:42
I hope you don't mind - I'm going to switch the order of your arguments so mine make more sense.
Second problem: can we say Bill of Rights violation? The word robot hasn't harmed you or anyone in any way, allowing organizations to limit our speech will do a lot more.
Can we not get into the whole Bill of Rights thing? I fail to see how asking people to not yell at each other is a violation of your rights. You're asked not to yell in school - are your teachers oppressing your rights? You're asked to not yell in a courtroom - is the judge oppressing your rights? Maybe we should all just walk around yelling because HEY, WE HAVE FREE SPEECH AND CAN THEREFORE SAY ANYTHING WE WANT!
No. Free Speech (in Canada) is a thing because we feel it's important to be able to express one's opinions. Free Speech does not give you an excuse to annoy other people for no reason. It does not give you an excuse to be (quoting Woodie Flowers) an incompetent jerk. Why am I using this term? Well...
Let me address this simply, why do you think its rude? I see if its rude if you seen a team yell if the walkways are clear... but in most cases theres a minority doing that.
Sure, Free Speech says that you CAN yell at people to get out of your way at the supermarket. There might be plenty of people clogging up the aisle, and all you need is a cake for your sister's birthday party that's starting NOW. You were supposed to pick it up earlier, but stuff got in the way, and now you're late. Does this mean it's not rude to yell at people to get out of your way so you can pick up this cake?
No, you're being an incompetent jerk. Incompetent because if you picked up the cake earlier, you wouldn't have had this problem. A jerk because now you're yelling at other people. It's very rarely socially acceptable to yell at anyone, regardless of what you're yelling. In the pits: You're being incompetent because, as several very successful teams have noted, you don't NEED to yell "ROBOT." You're being a jerk because, even though you don't need to, you CHOOSE to. I frankly don't care if your team is heading off to a match. If I'm in my pit, I don't want to hear that.
----
In Montreal, there was a team that celebrated each victory by parading their entire team through the pits, making noise and blocking aisles. One time they were blocking my team from queuing for a match. I politely tapped one of them on the shoulder, motioned to the robot, said "Pardon." ... And this whole huge francophone team (Je ne parle pas francais) moved. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that you don't need to yell to make your way through a crowd. People understand that you need to get to matches. If you let them know (politely) what you're doing, they'll get out of your way.
I personally find the yelling of ROBOT as tradition.
Yelling "excuse me!" may be seen as rude to certain people and yelling robot appears as it has been included in the FIRST culture.
Here is why I enjoy the yelling of robot
-Creative
-Spirited
- If done correctly parts a sea of bystanders in one shout
The culture of yelling robot came about the same time teams started actively pursuing the safety award.
Consider me signed too! When I started robotics in 2004 no one yelled robot, maybe every once in awhile with a large group but you never heard it. My senior year in 2007 is when I heard teams starting to use it. It was new and kind of got on peoples nerves but we just let it happen. Now a days I know for we I hear it yelled so often I kind of just tune it out.
I keep seeing it mentioned that "ROBOT!" has become a tradition in FRC for some. It wasn't always that way; I personally don't remember it on a large scale until our regional and the championship in 2007. As Adam and Kyle noted the practice really didn't start until the safety award was created in 2005, and I believe it came about as a way of teams trying to set themselves apart from the rest for their safety practices. I definitely recall that years teams were offering up "robot escorts" that would would walk with other teams and shout robot for them to help them get through the pits. I also recall that some "robot escorts" would do this without asking, and I remember as part of the drive team that year telling them to go away because they weren't helpful (or sometimes yelling it, in a less-than-kind tone. Being on the drive team is stressful :p ).
There was a lot of complaints about the "ROBOT!" practice back in 2007 too, but the same arguments on both sides were presented then and the practice didn't die. At this point I think it's too late to stop it unless an outright ban was placed on it (which I don't want to see either). None of the drive teams I've been apart of have ever used it and we never had a problem getting around the pits, but I can see how it has become tradition for some, and at this point I think I will just have to accept it (much like how "We graciously accept" has become a tradition that irks many). If you do shout it as you come by though don't expect me to tell you what a good, safe job you're doing navigating the pits, and if safety inspectors start requiring this practice at a regional I attend I'm going to have a nice long discussion with one (or more) of them about why we won't be doing it.
class1234567
30-03-2013, 12:36
Why does it matter? At the end of the day the competition will still be running if people are yelling robot ,or politely asking people to move.
I wish more FIRST volunteers were here to comment but they prefer robot because it is the fastest way, even if a team is late getting to the field. Honestly, they do have greater priority of other people, its not the team that thinks that, its whoever created the match sequence.Really? Thus far you have heard from: two former FIRST Senior Mentors, at least one volunteer coordinator, and I count at least 8 other volunteers (plus me now). That's over 17% of the commentors on this thread, and (like the vast majority of other commentors) none of us agree that it's universally preferable.
Let me address this simply, why do you think its rude? I see if its rude if you seen a team yell if the walkways are clear... but in most cases theres a minority doing that.The majority of the people who hear you yelling at a disruptive level are actually, actively in your way? Wow. That's a ridiculously big problem in and of itself. In the 7 years that I've been the vanguard of our cart, I've never had to ask more than maybe 1 in 15 of the people who would hear me yell "robot" to please move out of the way. In virtually every pit layout I can imagine, the vast majority of people who hear you yell are not impeding your movement--yelling merely creates more chaos and annoys people who don't actually have to move.
Personally, my first priority is to get the Green Shirts to stop ordering and/or rewarding teams to yell "robot" regardless of who is or is not in their way. Between that and putting an end to overflowing pits (including sometimes our own), much of this issue and others would become less obtrusive.
Alan Anderson
30-03-2013, 12:54
Why does it matter? At the end of the day the competition will still be running if people are yelling robot ,or politely asking people to move.
Are you honestly asking whether or not it's better to be polite than to yell?
It matters because what we're trying to celebrate isn't supposed to be based on force or loudness or entitlement. It's supposed to be based on inspiration and professionalism and grace.
Why does it matter? At the end of the day the competition will still be running if people are yelling robot ,or politely asking people to move.
I have heard of people just about getting run over by robots--their pushers shouted "ROBOT!", but apparently didn't bother to wait for the path to clear. The risk of injury goes up when people treat the yell of robot as a "I have priority, get the $^%# out of my way!" yell, and others don't know about it.
I'm with Donut on this; from my time as a student, I only remember it at the Championship (and then only from one particular team's robot escorts). The next year (2008), I was at an event with probably the tightest pits these teams had ever seen--no yells of ROBOT. 2009 and 2010, at the regionals I went to? Maybe once or twice. 2013? I heard 3-4 different teams using it, even when there was nobody in the way (and even those teams had their lead elements saying it, not their pushers screaming it).
As far as people not liking to be touched (something that somebody in favor of YELLING ROBOT pointed out), I would put the touch as the second method of getting attention. Now, a quick tap on the shoulder, most people won't mind too badly, especially if it's followed by an explanation. The first method is to say "Excuse us, we need to bring a robot through"; if they don't pay attention, tap them to get their attention, then repeat.
The real reason why the yelling is dangerous, though, goes far beyond just the competition. It goes YEARS down the road, somewhere you younguns haven't quite seen yet. The yelling increases the overall decibel (dB) level of the competition. In general, higher dB levels have shorter times you can hear them without losing hearing. Yep, you heard me right, losing hearing. (What? you ask--read that again.) In fact, if the volume level is over a certain amount, you're supposed to put on hearing protection--at my work, I'm wearing earplugs about every other day, if not more often, due to the loud noises that can happen with or without warning. What we're trying to do is to bring down some of the overall level so that we don't have to bring as many ear protection devices to hear longer. If you don't wear your earplugs in noisy environments when you're young, you'll be wearing them in quiet environments when you're older, but they'll be called hearing aids then.
artdutra04
30-03-2013, 13:14
I wish more FIRST volunteers were here to comment but they prefer robot because it is the fastest way, even if a team is late getting to the field. Honestly, they do have greater priority of other people, its not the team that thinks that, its whoever created the match sequence.I was a student for four years, a volunteer for four (overlaps student and mentor years), and a mentor for six. I dislike yelling it because it's unnecessary, has an air of arrogance about it, and it's entirely possible to get to the field when late without yelling it or injuring people in the pits.
Sorry, but in the 10K pits, you have to yell for the person next to you to hear what you're saying. We have no choice but to yell "ROBOT". Smaller events are easier - Northern Lights, with about 40 teams, had no one yelling "ROBOT" because it wasn't necessary.There are a lot of people here that seemingly take it as an immutable fact of life that the competitions are horrifically loud. By no means will they ever be a library, but they are currently much louder than they need to be.
They are often so loud, that I wear normal 30 dB earplugs, and can still hear all announcements just fine. In fact, I can usually hear people's conversations just fine, because they're usually yelling to be heard over the music and announcements.
Checking the volume levels with dB meters often shows they are way over the threshold at which hearing damage occurs. And it's not because of the tools (I worked in a machine shop during college, and you can usually have a normal conversation with an indoor voice in there when all the machines were running), it's the music and announcements; they are unnecessarily loud.
This level of noise pollution is a genuine safety issue that I believe needs to be resolved, because it is slowly causing permanent injury to long-term partipants in FRC.
Alan Anderson
30-03-2013, 13:18
The Boilermaker Regional has pits, field and stands all in one big giant room that echoes. In my ten years of participating in FIRST it was the LOUDEST event that I ever attended. The music was insanely loud. The crowd was cheering like crazy all weekend. And the pits had power tools working constantly.
Not ONE team at BMR yelled "ROBOT!"
Two teams did while I was within earshot on Thursday morning. Both of them were quickly reminded that having a team member or two in front of the robot to clear the way would work better with less disruption to the rest of the teams. Since I didn't hear it again, I assume they found that the advice was correct.
Underwriter Laboratories (UL) assigns the Lead Safety Advisor for FRC Regionals. Who would be a good person at UL to talk about robot cart transit practices?
sanddrag
30-03-2013, 13:26
Checking the volume levels with dB meters often shows they are way over the threshold at which hearing damage occurs. And it's not because of the tools (I worked in a machine shop during college, and you can usually have a normal conversation with an indoor voice in there when all the machines were running), it's the music and announcements; they are unnecessarily loud.
This level of noise pollution is a genuine safety issue that I believe needs to be resolved, because it is slowly causing permanent injury to long-term partipants in FRC.This would be a good place in the thread for one our safety folks to chime in. What is currently being done to monitor noise levels? Anything?
Richard Wallace
30-03-2013, 13:57
This level of noise pollution is a genuine safety issue that I believe needs to be resolved, because it is slowly causing permanent injury to long-term partipants in FRC.Eh? Sorry, could you please repeat that, I couldn't quite hear you. ;)
jmiller18
30-03-2013, 14:41
Yell "Scrap Metal" instead, it the same thing as "break a leg" in theater. Not really it would just be hilarious
Mark Sheridan
30-03-2013, 14:58
Let me address this simply, why do you think its rude? I see if its rude if you seen a team yell if the walkways are clear... but in most cases theres a minority doing that.
Second problem: can we say Bill of Rights violation? The word robot hasn't harmed you or anyone in any way, allowing organizations to limit our speech will do a lot more.
Please read my post more carefully, i am starting to loose track of what people are saying too:D .
Let me elaborate, the polite thing to do is to give people the opportunity to make their own decision. Say for example I am running late for a match, however my path is blocked by a team taking pictures. I would say, "excuse me, can I get through? I am late for my match." Then they can decide for themselves if they have priority, if they are polite, they would have determine that me and the robot could squeeze through. However there are scenarios where a team may choose not to move for me. My choice is not the scream "robot" but to say "excuse me, I am late, can you please move." Ultimately, in this scenario, we could both be rude about it but i would rather be the polite one. If I was returning to the pit, I might even wait.
The idea is to give people the opportunity to be think about it and make the right decision. Sort of how the fast lane is suppose to work, where the slower car yields to the faster car. Good luck getting rid of the "tradition" of the slow car in the fast lane. It appears we are stuck with it as a lasting symbol of americana:D *
Back to the point of the 1st amendment, as you pointed out and i mentioned before, a ban won't work. However I object to the mandatory practice of saying "robot" that occurred at the IE regional (see sand drag 1st post). You can say whatever you want. I am just going to call you rude when you say, "robot."
*sarcasm
Brandon Holley
30-03-2013, 15:03
Blindly shouting robot is nothing but plain laziness.
Use some effort, take some initiative and clear the people out of the way that are actually in the path of the robot. Do this by politely saying "Excuse us" or tapping them on the shoulder with the same statement.
You've got my support.
three_d_dave
30-03-2013, 15:35
As Professor Farnsworth would say "Good news everybody - you're not that guy." An aisle is a path between fixed obstacles, such as between seats on a plane or between rows of pillars or columns.
My proposal is more like adding lane markings to a road.
There is something appealing about giving a team a small bicycle bell for their robot cart. :rolleyes:
As a mentor, I never try to never miss a teaching moment. So the appropriate response is to move and stand in the path of the oncoming "ROBOT", then point (use the double thumb motion) and say (using your inside voice) "MENTOR" You can then discuss with them on how to move the robot safely and sanely to their destination. And maybe help them out.
No so much in favor of this petition, but happy to sign the one forcing people to use common sense at all times.
kjohnson
30-03-2013, 16:39
Click here to sign the petition (http://www.change.org/petitions/first-stop-encouraging-teams-to-shout-robot) There is no need to enter your address when signing.
This way we can keep track of who supports this and submit an actual petition to FIRST.
Negative 9
30-03-2013, 19:01
I agree that it's annoying, but sometimes it's just the easiest way to get people who are obnoxiously clogging up the lanes in between pits out of your way.
For those that disagree with the OP or petition:
please read them again. Here's the relevant parts:
I take serious issue with one of the mandated practices they have imposed on all competing teams.
The safety inspectors are requiring all teams to loudly yell "ROBOT!"(emphasis mine AND his)
This thread has taken a few tangents, but IMO, the intent is NOT to decide what the new mandated behavior will be, or to actually BAN the use of ROBOT!!!
The point is to get rid of the mandates and incentives by safety officials regarding this behavior.
hmmm, I wonder if I could have made the same point in a regular size font?:rolleyes:
Also, the use of the word loud in this thread has been very ambiguous and it's entirely possible people are just talking past each other.
I haven't even had my regional yet, and don't recall if this has ever been required in CO, but I certainly don't want to be a part of it.
so to anyone in CO next week: feel free to yell, and I'll feel free to be annoyed. I'll be instructing my team to use the PVT: the polite vanguard technique (Alan--want to split the trademark on this phrase? We'll be RICH!).
Zuelu562
30-03-2013, 19:30
REQUIRING it is the problem here. If there are excessive people in the aisle, I can understand "Robot Coming through", and politely asking people in the general area to stay in their pit area and not take up part of the aisle used for transporting robots.
Also, excessive shouting of it, as pointed out in OP, makes it lose all meaning. More often than not people just stare as you nearly take out their ankles and the person they are talking to in the aisle pulls them closer to the pit.
Thinking again, I really think the shouting of "ROBOT", "ROBOT COMING THROUGH" revolves around poor management of people standing in the aisle near the pit. KEEP THE AISLE CLEAR.
CENTURION
30-03-2013, 19:44
Wow, I'm really surprised to see so many people against this practice!
My team only ever goes to one regional, so I guess it's different at others, but I've never heard the call of "ROBOT!" as a "Get out of my way or I'm going to run you over!" sort of thing (Which is certainly rude and arrogant), I've always heard is as a warning, like "FORE" in golf.
We always have people out in front of the cart to clear a path, and don't go ramming the cart through if there are people in the way, but we still yell "ROBOT!" as a warning to people nearby to watch themselves. We also often yell "Watch out! Robot coming through!"
Robots often may have protruding arms or elements that (while inside the frame perimeter of course) may still hit people who thought they were out of the way. If you direct your warnings only to the people in front of you, who are in your way, people on the sides of you may not be looking out for you.
So alerting people in the area, not just the people directly in front of you is necessary in my opinion.
Tom Line
30-03-2013, 20:15
Signed.
I find teams who calmly walk through the pits with someone in front of the cart politely asking people to move and saying 'excuse me' far more professional that someone yelling 'robot' constantly.
In some cases the students seem to think that volume is key, and actually hurt your ears as they walk by yelling it.
Alan Anderson
30-03-2013, 22:52
I'll be instructing my team to use the PVT: the polite vanguard technique (Alan--want to split the trademark on this phrase? We'll be RICH!).
I put it in the public domain a year ago (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1139623&postcount=43).
gabrielau23
30-03-2013, 23:00
Agreed. At Chesapeake and DC, where there are 60+ teams, it's very hard to hear and there are incredible amounts of people in the pits. While we don't do it all the time, it's just hard sometimes to get people out of the way. Is there a polite and non-polite way to say it? Yeah, but yelling Robot is sometimes the only way.
gabrielau23
30-03-2013, 23:00
Wow, I'm really surprised to see so many people against this practice!
My team only ever goes to one regional, so I guess it's different at others, but I've never heard the call of "ROBOT!" as a "Get out of my way or I'm going to run you over!" sort of thing (Which is certainly rude and arrogant), I've always heard is as a warning, like "FORE" in golf.
We always have people out in front of the cart to clear a path, and don't go ramming the cart through if there are people in the way, but we still yell "ROBOT!" as a warning to people nearby to watch themselves. We also often yell "Watch out! Robot coming through!"
Robots often may have protruding arms or elements that (while inside the frame perimeter of course) may still hit people who thought they were out of the way. If you direct your warnings only to the people in front of you, who are in your way, people on the sides of you may not be looking out for you.
So alerting people in the area, not just the people directly in front of you is necessary in my opinion.
+1, or thumbs up. Totally agreed.
Perhaps to go along with the Mustang/Cowboy theme our team has going, I'll add a steel cowcatcher to the front of our cart so we don't have to yell "robot" anymore...
On a serious note, comparing yelling "robot" to "fore" is an analogy that I don't think holds. On a golf course, people could be yards and yards away and are already somewhat expecting a golf ball to the head. At a competition, with public pits and what not, people aren't coming for the thrill of getting run over by a sprinting teenager wildly piloting a cart.
theanimal160
31-03-2013, 00:54
The majority of the people who hear you yelling at a disruptive level are actually, actively in your way? Wow. That's a ridiculously big problem in and of itself. In the 7 years that I've been the vanguard of our cart, I've never had to ask more than maybe 1 in 15 of the people who would hear me yell "robot" to please move out of the way. In virtually every pit layout I can imagine, the vast majority of people who hear you yell are not impeding your movement--yelling merely creates more chaos and annoys people who don't actually have to move.
As the man pushing our robot around at the STL Regional, yes, having to yell EXCUSE ME ROBOT COMING THROUGH was on the way to and from every single match. There were two or three times when it was clear, and the only notable time I can remember the pit lanes being truly empty was after the last match of the finals.
CENTURION
31-03-2013, 01:12
Perhaps to go along with the Mustang/Cowboy theme our team has going, I'll add a steel cowcatcher to the front of our cart so we don't have to yell "robot" anymore...
On a serious note, comparing yelling "robot" to "fore" is an analogy that I don't think holds. On a golf course, people could be yards and yards away and are already somewhat expecting a golf ball to the head. At a competition, with public pits and what not, people aren't coming for the thrill of getting run over by a sprinting teenager wildly piloting a cart.
Right, and I'm not advocating people barreling down the aisle with 200ish pounds of cart and robot. Go slow, be careful, and watch out for people.
But at the same time, the drivers and robot need to get places, and need people out of their way And we don't want anyone to get hurt when, say, they take a step backwards into the aisle (as teenagers will sometimes do), and get smacked by a robot appendage.
To be honest if you want to make a petition how about one to have people stop clogging up the pits using it as a social club and stop blocking the entrances and exits which is equally rude and obnoxious and a fire hazard?
To be honest if you want to make a petition how about one to have people stop clogging up the pits using it as a social club and stop blocking the entrances and exits which is equally rude and obnoxious and a fire hazard?
Or teams who expand their pits and occupy nearly the entire aisle...
As far as I'm concerned, 'green shirts' at events should feel free to be as aggressive and proactive as possible to eliminate pit crowding. I really respect teams that do it right.
Anupam Goli
31-03-2013, 01:34
To be honest if you want to make a petition how about one to have people stop clogging up the pits using it as a social club and stop blocking the entrances and exits which is equally rude and obnoxious and a fire hazard?
BEST robotics does this at their events. They assign 5 pit passes, 4 student and 1 adult pit pass. I'd rather not see FIRST do a system like that, since media often walks through the pits, but I'd like it if teams emphasized that the pits are not where socialization happens, and neither should students who don't know much about the robot come in groups to the team pit and start harrasing them, asking them what is wrong. Our team has every student that isn't pit crew stay in the stands scouting matches or doing pit scouting in groups of 2-3. Our pit is rarely crowded, if ever, since everyone has a job to do.
CENTURION
31-03-2013, 01:39
BEST robotics does this at their events. They assign 5 pit passes, 4 student and 1 adult pit pass. I'd rather not see FIRST do a system like that, since media often walks through the pits, but I'd like it if teams emphasized that the pits are not where socialization happens, and neither should students who don't know much about the robot come in groups to the team pit and start harrasing them, asking them what is wrong. Our team has every student that isn't pit crew stay in the stands scouting matches or doing pit scouting in groups of 2-3. Our pit is rarely crowded, if ever, since everyone has a job to do.
Our team has been talking about implementing a similar system just for our own pit. Besides the drive team, and one supervising mentor, there would be a limit of one or two students/mentors in the pit area.
Our team has been talking about implementing a similar system just for our own pit. Besides the drive team, and one supervising mentor, there would be a limit of one or two students/mentors in the pit area.
We issue the nice metal-style nametags for our pit crew/mentors, both to allow judges and other teams to know who they are talking to, and to make it clear who is allowed to be in the pit.
BEST robotics does this at their events. They assign 5 pit passes, 4 student and 1 adult pit pass. I'd rather not see FIRST do a system like that, since media often walks through the pits, but I'd like it if teams emphasized that the pits are not where socialization happens, and neither should students who don't know much about the robot come in groups to the team pit and start harrasing them, asking them what is wrong. Our team has every student that isn't pit crew stay in the stands scouting matches or doing pit scouting in groups of 2-3. Our pit is rarely crowded, if ever, since everyone has a job to do.
To be fair it's often parents who want to come down too the pits as well. I remember at GTR West one year I saw a team of 30 just covering the pit aisle with 30 people including a baby in a carriage.It's as if they had no concept there were other teams in the pits with them.
To be fair it's often parents who want to come down too the pits as well. I remember at GTR West one year I saw a team of 30 just covering the pit aisle with 30 people including a baby in a carriage.It's as if they had no concept there were other teams in the pits with them.
It's always awkward asking parents to leave the area when they just want to see what their son or daughter has been working on for the past 6-8 weeks...but it's also really necessary. "Pit browsing" should be encouraged for all visitors but not clogging up one area.
Zebra_Fact_Man
31-03-2013, 02:02
To be honest if you want to make a petition how about one to have people stop clogging up the pits using it as a social club and stop blocking the entrances and exits which is equally rude and obnoxious and a fire hazard?
Here in lies the problem I feel. My team wouldn't have to yell robot (or say "excuse me" if that's what you really prefer) if their team wasn't standing where it shouldn't be, in the pit road.
Honestly I see no difference between "Robot" and "Excuse me my robot is coming through" except for the unnecessary length of the second one. "Robot" is crisp, concise, and gets your point across quickly that there is a potentially dangerous and heavy mobile object moving in your direction and to be alert (the world needs more lerts).
As to the practice of announcing you robot in less filled areas: there are a number of teams in my area that are in the practice of walling off their pit (with shelves or totes or use a tent), so that unless you are directly in front, you can't see in or out of it. There's no telling is someone is going to come barreling out at any moment into your robot transit team (which I HAVE seen on occasion when "robot" was not announced). Same goes for adjacent hallways and rooms. Preemptive announcement is much better and safer than running the risk of collision. I have no control over what other team's members do, but I do control what my team does. If you find it annoying that I let you know every time when my robot is passing your pit, you'll just have to take one for the team, so to say.
As to the use of robot declaration, it should ALWAYS be the person leading the robot train (who is at LEAST a handful of feet in front of the robot cart) and NEVER the person pushing the robot cart. That gives people more time to react.
I find it actually kind of funny the disparity I see in the pits; of the 4 competitions I've been to the past 2 years, the overwhelming majority of pits (75%+) have either more people in them than they should, or the pit is completely empty (everyone is at/to/from the field). Not sure which one is worse.
Alexa Stott
31-03-2013, 02:12
I CAN'T STAND WHEN PEOPLE YELL "ROBOT." IT'S RUDE AND OBNOXIOUS AND, HONESTLY, MANY OF ITS DEFENDERS IN THIS THREAD ARE ONLY REINFORCING THAT POINT.
AND TO WHOEVER POSTED THAT DISCOURAGING PEOPLE FROM YELLING IS A BILL OF RIGHTS VIOLATION--YES, YOU ARE MORE OR LESS ALLOWED TO SAY WHAT YOU WANT; YOU'RE ALSO ALLOWED TO HAVE YOU AND YOUR TEAM COME OFF AS A BUNCH OF RUDE, ARROGANT KIDS.
CENTURION
31-03-2013, 03:01
I see what you're trying to get at with the "yelling" text Alexa, but it's a bit of a different situation when you're in a loud, crowded pit area.
I get the feeling that the different ideas about whether it's "rude" or not just have to do with the local cultures that attend those regionals.
In WI, I've never heard anyone talk about calling "Robot" as "rude" (Can't say I've taken a survey or anything though)
Then again, in the midwest, we sometimes say "yeah" in place of "you're welcome", and from what I've heard, that's considered offensive and rude in other parts of the country.
I don't think this is something that should be decided on a whole-organization level. Maybe each regional can decide for itself?
In any case, we're no strangers to FIRST culture, we know that the person yelling "ROBOT!" is not trying to be rude, or offensive, or obnoxious, they're probably just trying to be safe.
Sam390250
31-03-2013, 09:22
Wisconsin Regional Safety Officials were requiring teams to do this, and it was very obnoxious.
Incident with our team, one of the drivers was politely saying, "Excuse us, we need to get through" while pushing the robot. One of the safety officials was in the way and said, "I am not moving until you loudly shout 'Robot!'". This is clearly unnecessary and is forcing/encouraging students to be obnoxious. It also makes the pit a tense and more stressful place than it already is.
As the man pushing our robot around at the STL Regional, yes, having to yell EXCUSE ME ROBOT COMING THROUGH was on the way to and from every single match. There were two or three times when it was clear, and the only notable time I can remember the pit lanes being truly empty was after the last match of the finals.This doesn't answer my question. Of the people who hear you yell "excuse me, robot coming through", how many of them are actually in a position that impedes your travel or risks their safety? Unless your definition of yelling is very different from the dB standard, if this is greater than say 10%, the pits are way, way, way too crowded. This causes numerous other safety issues which are not addressed--and are in fact compounded--by the yelling to which you refer.
The aisles don't need to be empty for polite, inside voice, requests to work. Anything but. In fact, they can be quite crowded. I probably ask 20 people to move every time we queue, and it still goes faster than yelling robot to 10x more people than actually need to move--the latter is desensitizing, so people who are actually in the way react more slowly and must maneuver in a now more entropic situation. Now, overcrowdedness poses numerous problems, but yelling is more an attempt to mask the symptoms than address the cause.
Robots often may have protruding arms or elements that (while inside the frame perimeter of course) may still hit people who thought they were out of the way. If you direct your warnings only to the people in front of you, who are in your way, people on the sides of you may not be looking out for you.:o I'm trying to imagine how this is possible. Does your robot overhang your cart or have an abnormal shape, etc? How can someone think their out of the way while being inside the frame perimeter?
I completely agree.
I pasted this link into the Week 5 event survey. Somebody should send this thread to Underwriter's Laboratory and FIRST brass. Anybody got connections? If they got on board, they could simply tell all of the event organizers to push this concept in the future.
Mike Copioli
31-03-2013, 10:22
Having "ROBOT" screamed at me makes me want to stand my ground rather than move. Just like when someone behind me at a traffic light lays on there horn, it makes me want to turn on my hazard lights, pop the hood, get out of the car and start fiddling around with the engine.
It is irritating, unnecessary and a point of contention every year. I had someone deliberately walk in front of our robot yesterday, while looking right at us. When I said excuse me the response was, "You are supposed to yell robot".
Wow. Some people just do not have common sense.
Tell me where to sign.
I accidentally the verb.
Also, at busy regionals, the only thing that works is yelling "robot". Quite simply, tapping people on the shoulder and saying "excuse me" doesn't work.
and so how does robot work any better? Tapping on the shoulder at least makes sense if the person was facing away and doesn't see the robot coming. And how does yelling help a deaf person at all?
Personally, I have always found it irritating/ironic/amusing that it would be deemed necessary to warn me that there were robots when robots were specifically the reason for the event. As if I didn't expect them!
It's one thing to use a warning when the situation calls for it, but so much of this we see at regionals - the florescent vests, the flashing lights, the batons and wand flashlights - is all show intended to win an award. Carrying it to the extreme that we now see has the opposite effect and dilutes the message by numbing us to the actual safety practice.
Ian Curtis
31-03-2013, 11:41
I was surprised to hear that from the safety folks as well. I thought we had been through this a few years ago (maybe it was just on CD?) and the consensus was the smart thing to do was just be polite and ask people to move. Of course, people would still yell "ROBOT!" just like they say "Graciously Accept" when that could be interpreted to be a backhanded insult. (Props to the one team at Seattle that said "Gratefully")
At the events in Michigan I attended, they were almost requiring us to yell robot, which definitely is a change from the past.
I have more than once raised an eyebrow to things said by some of the Safety Advisors. The ones who are actually from UL are usually pretty good, but I wonder about the qualifications of some of the others.
I worked in industry where I received extensive safety training in things like lockout/tag out, fall protection, rigging safety, confined space entry and rescue, MSDS, and manlift
operation, so I may know a thing or two from the real world about this.
One thing I have learned to appreciate is to never underestimate the ability of bureaucrats to create rules that seem to make sense on paper, but fail miserably out in the real world where we have to live with them.
This falls into that category.
gyroscopeRaptor
31-03-2013, 11:47
We unashamedly yelled robot, but we did have a vanguard for some matches. The vanguard worked much better, but some people in the pits didn't move unless we yelled ROBOT. That said, it should not be required to say ROBOT if a vanguard is also present. No safety officials or others mandated yelling ROBOT (I was not present at the safety meeting, but I didn't hear if they mandated it there).
Where do I sign up ?
When someone yells 'ROBOT'
I want to say "oh look, a robot ! bless your heart"
One last comment from me then I'll shut up.
From my experience, the advance person, or vanguard, is probably the most effective way and is important for getting a robot safely through the crowded aisles.
Whether they yell "robot" or something else, the important thing is that they communicate with the people in the area, including their people guiding their cart. If saying something like "excuse me" or "coming through" or "could you please move a bit" works better because you are communicating your intent, than yelling "robot" because someone says you should, then that's what should be done.
The person should also tell their cart drivers to stop if necessary and help them find a clear path.
Often a lot of the congestion is general public who may need a little more time to integrate what is going on around them and react. A little verbal guidance, more than just yelling "robot" may be necessary.
Other times, the people in front of you may be fully aware of your cart coming, but simply have no safe place to go immediately to get out of the way. You'll just have to be patient and realize that your team is not the only one there with places to go...
I think we all just need to apply some Gracious Professionalism to this issue.
I put it in the public domain a year ago (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1139623&postcount=43).
nice! Now we need to get the word out!
I recommend that all in favor of the petition, and the use of a vanguard should start actively spreading the word to safety people and other teams. Those that think it is a good idea will follow suit, and those that claim it can't be done won't. My hypothesis is that eventually the loud yelling of robot will just disappear.
the permutations of possible things to say, and the debate of whether or not yelling robot is rude is :deadhorse:
Incident with our team, one of the drivers was politely saying, "Excuse us, we need to get through" while pushing the robot. One of the safety officials was in the way and said, "I am not moving until you loudly shout 'Robot!'". This is clearly unnecessary and is forcing/encouraging students to be obnoxious. It also makes the pit a tense and more stressful place than it already is.
I personally do not like the shouting of robot, and find a safety official doing that just weird.
Incident with our team, one of the drivers was politely saying, "Excuse us, we need to get through" while pushing the robot. One of the safety officials was in the way and said, "I am not moving until you loudly shout 'Robot!'". This is clearly unnecessary and is forcing/encouraging students to be obnoxious. The very next time a safety official does that, I suggest that as many team members as possible get around him and count three, then ROAR "Robot" at him at the top of their lungs. Then, after the match, figure out who to send a complaint letter to about a safety inspector requiring an unsafe practice and furthermore interfering with a team's safe operation to do it.
Chris is me
31-03-2013, 15:26
At BAE, our students were told by safety judges that we MUST yell "ROBOT!!!" in the pits while walking. On our team we follow the lead of many teams whom have posted in this thread - one member of our drive team walks ahead of the robot cart and politely asks people to move to the side so our robot can get through. When this explanation wouldn't satisfy the safety judges, two mentors from our team had to step in and explain that shouting "ROBOT!!!" was against our team's code of conduct and that we would not be shouting it during the competition. They were still adamant about it, but we kept doing it our way regardless. Probably didn't help our Safety Award chances one bit, but we would rather be professionals. At least they didn't physically blockade the robot like at some other regionals.
The practice certainly shouldn't be mandatory. Not sure if it should be outright banned (maybe occasionally shouting IS the only way to get through a particularly tricky situation quickly, I don't know), but it's a stupid idea to enforce its practice and the more you hear "robot" at competition, the more you tune it out.
Also, the idea that the Bill of Rights prevents a private organization from asking someone attending their controlled event not to shout a word? That is just stupid. The Bill of Rights / First Amendment prevents the government from restricting free expression - it does not mean no one can ever ask you to not say anything in any public or private venue. It certainly doesn't protect speech from being frowned upon either.
BHS_STopping
31-03-2013, 15:45
One other issue with yelling "ROBOT!" is that it's often difficult to tell if it's directed at you. When people keep shouting it, you look around and you don't see any robots coming your way most of the time. So eventually you start to ignore it. This completely defeats the purpose of alerting people around you, similar to crying "wolf" over and over again.
I still have yet to see anybody prove why saying "Excuse us" is any less effective than shouting "Robot!" Until someone can argue this, I think most of us here firmly stand where we are.
BrendanB
31-03-2013, 15:47
I too am very against the yelling of the term, "robot". This practice of yelling in the pits is not only obnoxious but it is completely unprofessional especially when VIPs, sponsors, and the public are walking around. A quieter pit is area is great for the public and it is great for teams. I know my stress level goes down when the pits are quiet.
For the past three years on 3467 we use the same system many teams use: one person in front politely and quietly asking bystanders to move. Even in the most crowded events such as GSR it works amazing, never had a problem.
FIRST, please change this!
While serving as an ambassador this weekend at CTR, I was giving a tour and teams were yelling Robot, and kept yelling it louder and louder while I attempted to move the group of guests I was taking on a tour over. Needless to guests had commented to me they were not happy.
I've always been against yelling ROBOT, but after this weekend, I strongly feel this needs to stop, now, period.
Tetraman
31-03-2013, 16:15
Lets stick it in the rule book, next to the part where you can't save seats at the venues. I'm sure everyone will follow the rule then.
I really think that a Limit for the number of students from a team is needed for the pits, but enforcing it would be a nightmare. You need to allow for students to wander the pits and see all of the teams, as well as for parents of students. I just don't know how to go about it - and most likely neither does FIRST, which is why you don't see a limit or any kind of answer to this problem.
And I ask again, where is the letter to FIRST that we are signing?
Lets stick it in the rule book, next to the part where you can't save seats at the venues. I'm sure everyone will follow the rule then.
I really think that a Limit for the number of students from a team is needed for the pits, but enforcing it would be a nightmare. You need to allow for students to wander the pits and see all of the teams, as well as for parents of students. I just don't know how to go about it - and most likely neither does FIRST, which is why you don't see a limit or any kind of answer to this problem.I'd argue a good first step would be to stop having the Green Shirts waste their time forcing safe and professional teams to yell "ROBOT!" and start using it to enforce everyone de-crowding and staying in their pit area. I'm willing to bet crowdedness will do go a lot if the safety guys really made it their priority and put it visibly as one of the top safety award considerations (as well it should be).
And I ask again, where is the letter to FIRST that we are signing?I think it's the Change petition? Does that work? Doesn't seem to have as many signers as the thread, though.
I haven't heard it nearly as much as I used to. In 2011 Championship, there were of course robots EVERYWHERE. So every other person was screaming "ROBOT!!!!". Yeah, ok.... *raising hand*
kjohnson
31-03-2013, 16:46
I think it's the Change petition? Does that work? Doesn't seem to have as many signers as the thread, though.
Yep, I talked with sanddrag before creating this as to not hijack his thread. Things tend to be overlooked when people don't read the entire thread:
Petition to FIRST to stop encouraging teams to shout "Robot!" (http://www.change.org/petitions/first-stop-encouraging-teams-to-shout-robot)
Tetraman
31-03-2013, 16:54
Yep, I talked with sanddrag before creating this as to not hijack his thread. Things tend to be overlooked when people don't read the entire thread:
Petition to FIRST to stop encouraging teams to shout "Robot!" (http://www.change.org/petitions/first-stop-encouraging-teams-to-shout-robot)
I'd rather sign a letter being sent to FIRST Headquarters, rather than an internet petition. I feel that FIRST may not even be aware of the issue, and sending a letter addressing the concerns and asking for action is a lot more convincing.
Or maybe even ask Frank to read up on this thread would be just as good since we have all "signed" our support already.
David Brinza
31-03-2013, 17:24
I have more than once raised an eyebrow to things said by some of the Safety Advisors. The ones who are actually from UL are usually pretty good, but I wonder about the qualifications of some of the others.
<snip>
I directly confronted a safety advisor who ordered my student to wear gloves while operating a drill press. I told my student to stop work, but not put gloves on. Then asked the safety advisor to send the lead safety advisor to our pit to explain how wearing gloves was in any way safe around a drill press. The original safety advisor returned a few minutes later and apologized. I wouldn't want a student to lose a hand by having the glove get wrapped into the drill. I would hope safety advisors are correctly briefed on important issues and not on how to create more chaos in the pits.
Something has to be done to reduce the number of "lookie-loos" in the pits, particularly on Sat morning. Teams are already stressed with their final qual matches, alliance selection negotiations, final inspections, watching the team standings displays, etc. Safety should be clearing access in the pit rows by limiting numbers of visitors and dispersing crowds between queuing, inspection and the pits. In Inland Empire, the primary access aisle had to accommodate 44 of the 49 teams. The aisle to queuing ran past pit admin, spare parts, and a couple of monitors showing matches and standings. It was a traffic nightmare. Safety's focus should have been to keep aisles as clear as possible without a chorus of "ROBOT!" "ROBOT!" "ROBOT!" to add to the din.
I voted on the change.org site and am fully supportive of sanddrag's stance.
brrian27
31-03-2013, 17:25
I don't want to get in any heated debates or anything, I'm just respectfully giving my opinion. Is yelling robot really this big of an issue? If you find the need to yell it, go ahead, if not that's fine too. Obviously be polite, i.e. don't yell every two seconds and if some don't here you politely say excuse me or whatever. But in general yelling robot is an effective system. Often teams need to get too and from matches fast so they can make schedule, fix problems, and perform necessary operations. I don't see this as a large issue.
kjohnson
31-03-2013, 17:27
I'd rather sign a letter being sent to FIRST Headquarters, rather than an internet petition.
How would you suggest we gather everyone together to sign a physical letter, supposing that we want to get this to FIRST before the Championship?
MrJohnston
31-03-2013, 17:43
I do not believe that the primary issue is "to yell or not to yell." Rather, it is an issue of space.
Really, the pit area should be large enough to allow for a robots-only lane. In Seattle this weekend, there were times when walking through the pits (withour without a robot in tow!) was difficult. At times, we were working to support a rookie team half-way across the pit area from us and needed to transport drills, hacksaws and long pieces of L-Channel. It really was not safe to do so through that mob.
One of the main goals of FIRST is to promote technology and we like to do so by inviting the public. In doing so, we should have the space to accommodate the guests - without running them over with robots in a rush to get into queue.
I really dislike it when others feel the need to shout robot for you as you walk through the pits. Thanks for trying and all, but I can say excuse me myself just fine.
efoote868
31-03-2013, 17:55
2008 is when I remember being "escorted" in Atlanta; I don't remember the practice in 2006.
I can attest to the loudness of Boilermaker Regional. To give you some perspective, the regional takes place inside the Armory; you can hear the cheering within (during eliminations) from two blocks away, while you can hear gunfire within from about a block away (yes, it is a shooting range.)
I think a bigger issue than shouting ROBOT is the sheer number of people inside the pits. I think FIRST would do well to have signs posted "NO LOITERING IN THE PITS" next to the signs requiring safety glasses. Until that happens, ALL teams would do well to explain to their members and visitors that the pits are dangerous, crowded, and not a good place to be if you don't have a specific reason to be there.
MrJohnston
31-03-2013, 18:07
I very much disagree with the idea of limitting pit access. The pits are the best place to come and interact with students, see the robots up close and really learning what goes into them. As I lead a field trip of fourth graders around, I noticed their fascination with their close-up view of robots and they loved watching HS kids making repairs. They REALLY loved collecting buttons, etc. For them, it was their coolest field trip ever - something they will never forget - talking about inspiring another generation of engineers! Instead, we need to focus on doing whatever needs to be done in order to keep them safe from teh masses we invite to the competitions.
I very much disagree with the idea of limitting pit access. The pits are the best place to come and interact with students, see the robots up close and really learning what goes into them. As I lead a field trip of fourth graders around, I noticed their fascination with their close-up view of robots and they loved watching HS kids making repairs. They REALLY loved collecting buttons, etc. For them, it was their coolest field trip ever - something they will never forget - talking about inspiring another generation of engineers! Instead, we need to focus on doing whatever needs to be done in order to keep them safe from teh masses we invite to the competitions.I agree that primary access limitations should come out of the teams' allocations rather than visitors. Or rather, the teams' pits themselves. I'd be willing to get that if we enforced having whoever was in a specific pit actually in that pit--with any volume reductions intended to come out of that teams' members or setup--a lot of this issue would go away. Instead, 'safety' seems to have degenerated into spectacle. (That doesn't downplay the need for coordinating traffic flow and maybe some larger tour groups, but hopefully not to the point of damaging FIRST's mission or image.)
I directly confronted a safety advisor who ordered my student to wear gloves while operating a drill press. I told my student to stop work, but not put gloves on. Then asked the safety advisor to send the lead safety advisor to our pit to explain how wearing gloves was in any way safe around a drill press. The original safety advisor returned a few minutes later and apologized. I wouldn't want a student to lose a hand by having the glove get wrapped into the drill. I would hope safety advisors are correctly briefed on important issues and not on how to create more chaos in the pits.I should have done this. We once had one harass us so much about this that we didn't get a chance to finish before our next match (we only had a few minutes as it was). It's sad when such an important and generally professional and helpful volunteer cohort gets such a bad rap due to poor training.
Anupam Goli
31-03-2013, 18:37
I very much disagree with the idea of limitting pit access. The pits are the best place to come and interact with students, see the robots up close and really learning what goes into them. As I lead a field trip of fourth graders around, I noticed their fascination with their close-up view of robots and they loved watching HS kids making repairs. They REALLY loved collecting buttons, etc. For them, it was their coolest field trip ever - something they will never forget - talking about inspiring another generation of engineers! Instead, we need to focus on doing whatever needs to be done in order to keep them safe from teh masses we invite to the competitions.
The culprits who cause crwoded pits aren't normally spectators or media or local groups coming to see what's going on. It's normally students from the same team using the pit as a social haven. I'm fine with people who don't normally see what goes on behind the bumpers looking in the pits for a few minutes and asking questions, because they are genuinely curious, and usually are polite enough to make room for other robots. It's when there are multitudes of other team members who choose to swarm the pit of their team and also take up all of the aisle that it's an issue.
BrendanB
31-03-2013, 19:12
Limiting pit access is not the answer. Something to consider is that every event is different. I've been to competitions where pits are smaller and more cramped to others with very spacious aisles and pits and everything in between. I would be upset if my regional event limited pit access to x individuals per team when I could register for another event and have no restrictions. We can have about 6-8 people working in our pit (and contained in the 10x10 space) and have several more pit scouting or checking out other robots for their own enjoyment at any given time. It would also require a very organized and staffed volunteer system to put in place. I also don't the other xx individuals on my team feel excluded from the pits because they haven't been given the magical pass.
The answer is teams managing their team members. A proper pit manager (whether student, coach, mentor, etc) should make sure their team isn't spilling out of their pit and has a safe number of people. Everyone needs to police themselves to understand when they are needed in the pit area and when they are just in the way. Teams also need to design workable pit spaces. At every regional there are always those teams whose pit decorations and setup take up most of the 10x10 space meaning workers spill into the aisle and anyone who needs to ask a questions must do so from the aisle. Oddly enough those are also the teams with the most bodies around their pit areas. Oh well! :rolleyes:
I think FIRST should have 1-2 volunteers per event whose job it is to walk around the pit and address traffic issues. If it becomes part of our culture to keep aisles clear we won't be having these problems.
CENTURION
31-03-2013, 20:06
The answer is teams managing their team members. Everyone needs to police themselves to understand when they are needed in the pit area and when they are just in the way. Teams also need to design workable pit spaces. At every regional there are always those teams whose pit decorations and setup take up most of the 10x10 space meaning workers spill into the aisle and anyone who needs to ask a questions must do so from the aisle. Oddly enough those are also the teams with the most bodies around their pit areas. Oh well! :rolleyes:
I think FIRST should have 1-2 volunteers per event whose job it is to walk around the pit and address traffic issues. If it becomes part of our culture to keep aisles clear we won't be having these problems.
Couldn't agree more!
Teams should be limiting the number of people around their own pit.
People looking around, talking to teams and checking out robots I don't see as a big issue, as long as they are mindful of their surroundings. But you really shouldn't have people hanging around the pits who aren't actively working on the robot, talking to judges, or mentors supervising.
Wendy Holladay
31-03-2013, 20:11
Manage your own pit.
I vote, yes, stop yelling Robot.
Lydia Yeckley
31-03-2013, 21:11
100x this thread. At the Buckeye Regional this past weekend, I literally cringed every time I heard someone belt out "ROBOT". It's a robotics competition, we know. When someone from our team began to do it, I would quickly mention to him/her to maybe say "Excuse us, please".
When we did that, a positive response came forth. Instead of people scrambling to move, as I concluded is the average reaction to hearing yells of mechanical entities moving forth in the aisle, people calmly stepped aside and said "No problem", to which we replied "Thank you".
It's not about letting everyone know that YOU are coming through, you're just taking safe and calm precautions to get to where you're going while preventing headaches and panic.
On the other side of things, it is a sense of tradition that would be lost to history. Then again, so did personalized, team bumpers, and reserving seats in arenas.
The shouting of "ROBOT" is like a cowbell at Cross Country races, you hate the sound so much, especially when you're not running. But when you leave the race, or the season ends, you miss it.
However, I, too, vote in favor to end it. Or at least reduce the possibility of it happening.
216Robochick288
31-03-2013, 21:21
Signed. There are more effective means of clearing a path, the best to be have someone who stands 5 feet or so in front of the cart tapping peoples shoulders as a warning.
After a short time at competitions hearing about how a robot is moving the entire competition away from where you are, the next time you hear it behind you, you tend to ignore it... Its pretty bad how by the end of the first day, what you use to identify movement of heavy robots are generally ignored because its hard to tell where they are coming from when they are all the same loudness.
I find the best is to be just a bit on the quiet side. Its so different from everything else that it catches the attention better.
Also, you may want to add a limit on the DJ's volume, because if its too loud, its difficult to hear yourself think let alone hearing "Excuse me, I have a robot behind me." :yikes:
MrJohnston
31-03-2013, 21:53
I agree that teams need to work on keeping their kids from crowding around the pit.... I have a team of nearly 100 students and can attest that it is possible - albeit difficult at times. (When the robot has an accident, for instance, kids naturally want to see for themselves what happened.) We do chase them away (back to the stands) telling them that a runner (usually me) will come to the stands with a full update as soon as the issue is diagnosed. In order to help with this we: Volunteer for every single job we can (safety goggles, FLL judge, field reset, etc.); Over-scout, assigning very specific tasks for students; formally organizing cheering. As there is no limit to the number of kids who can cheer at once, our students *always* have something to do.
We very much do encourage our kdis to visit everybody else's bit as it helps them to ask questions about the engineering behind other teams' robots and build communication skills - something that some of our more mathematically-minded kids can use to improve. It would be shameful to end this practice.
The biggest thing we need is a venue that can handle us. In Seattle on both Friday and Saturday, we had a problem in that the stands completely filled (aside from a few seats from which the field could not be seen), the aisle between the stands and the field became overly-crowded and there was not anywhere to go.
Sam390250
31-03-2013, 22:39
Lets stick it in the rule book, next to the part where you can't save seats at the venues. I'm sure everyone will follow the rule then.
While a rule may not be as effective as we would wish, my main point is that Safety Advisers should not be rewarding/encouraging this behavior.
bfish888
31-03-2013, 23:07
I find the shouting of robot very annoying and obnoxious. My coach tells our team never to shout robot. Instead, you should say, "Excuse me, robot coming through." or "Could you please move, robot coming through." Even when we were late to a match, we still continued to hold to this term.
I propose that if a letter is actually drafted for FIRST HQ, it be centered not just around safety advisers mandating "ROBOT!", but around better safety advice in general, including but not limited to:
Advocating the Polite Vanguard Technique
Further encouraging pit activities to be confined to the pit (namely by the safety advisers advising any team that cannot contain its equipment, personnel and visitors to change one of the former)
Examining the practices required and rewarded by safety advisers and the safety award (safe or spectacle? how are advisers trained?)
Thoughts?
On the other side of things, it is a sense of tradition that would be lost to history. Then again, so did personalized, team bumpers, and reserving seats in arenas.It's what...err, one, two, three...seven* years old? I'd really like to know how it became tradition in the first place. Was it at a Green Shirt meeting in 2007 or something? The UL winner at Championships? (I actually don't remember in the Mid-Atlantic until 2008.)
*wait, no, seven? seriously, seven? I don't want to be old :(
theanimal160
31-03-2013, 23:45
I CAN'T STAND WHEN PEOPLE YELL "ROBOT." IT'S RUDE AND OBNOXIOUS AND, HONESTLY, MANY OF ITS DEFENDERS IN THIS THREAD ARE ONLY REINFORCING THAT POINT.
AND TO WHOEVER POSTED THAT DISCOURAGING PEOPLE FROM YELLING IS A BILL OF RIGHTS VIOLATION--YES, YOU ARE MORE OR LESS ALLOWED TO SAY WHAT YOU WANT; YOU'RE ALSO ALLOWED TO HAVE YOU AND YOUR TEAM COME OFF AS A BUNCH OF RUDE, ARROGANT KIDS. [/SIZE]
The irony in this is brilliant. I happen to find it annoying when people feel it necessary to increase their text size to get their point across.
TheOtherGuy
31-03-2013, 23:55
The pits are historically a very chaotic place, and for good reason. The shouting of "Robot!" is, as already pointed out, a degenerative practice that does little to increase order in the pits.
The way I see it, there are several factors at play that can be manipulated:
Overcrowding can be reduced by limiting the number of persons allowed in the pits
Space can be allocated more efficiently: add aisles dedicated to robot transportation
Teams can take it upon themselves to reduce the noise and disorder.
The third bullet, IMO, is the easiest to undertake, as it is a simple behavioral change that doesn't affect the grandeur of the pits. I'd like to add some more thoughts as to how you can achieve more order with the polite method of robot transportation:
As stated, send one or two members a few feet ahead to begin clearing space.
If you are able to maneuver the robot + cart around a group, do so, and without voicing your intent. This is my #1 issue: teams generally call "Robot!" without thinking about the path they're taking through the pit, as it they should have a straight-line trip to/from their pit. If it is possible to avoid someone, quietly and politely do so.
Be patient! If there is a roadblock, wait for people to move and thank them for doing so afterwards. Common courtesy goes a long way.
To aid in many of the situations mentioned in this thread involving extremely crowded pits, I would suggest everyone takes trip time into account. I realize this can be hard for teams trying to make it onto the field, but this is where your path-clearing members come in handy. Make sure people are well aware that a robot will be coming through in a moment, but again, do so in an amicable manner.
I'm going to try to speak with the safety advisors at our next event on Thursday morning and convince them to help with the endeavor of keeping the pits as quiet and professional as possible. I think this is a good short-term solution, if at least someone at each regional has a courteous discussion with the nice green-shirted folk :)
The irony in this is brilliant. I happen to find it annoying when people feel it necessary to increase their text size to get their point across.
Ah, so you were annoyed by yelling in text. Which, as it happens, is precisely what the point was--the yelling of the word "robot" to clear a path is annoying multiple people.
For Siri:
Yes to all three. I would actually start out with the third one, pointing out that "safety" advisors are actually advocating practices that either hinder safety or do not advance it, in addition to actual safe practices. (And be specific.) Actually, I'd be sure to point out that it's only at some events, so there is distinct inconsistency. Then I'd cast the first two as better alternatives to one of the issues discussed previously, and note the need for better training on other items. I just think that that order makes better logical sense, better flow, that sort of thing.
I think the main point is,
Whatever it is you say: "Excuse me, robot coming through!", "We're late for our match, pardon us!"... and yes, even "Robot!"....
...don't be a jerk about it.
That means, use your inside voice (even if it's toward the loud end of your inside voice), be kind, and THANK the person after they move to help you.
I'm definitely in agreement with the one-person-in-front method: When I coach, I serve as that person, along with whichever student is holding the controls. My drivers can get the cart into the queue line just fine on their own, and I'd rather take the time to be polite to those in front of us.
You never know who that person you just yelled at is. They could have been your future sponsor, but you just screamed at them for standing sort-of-near-you and now they think you're maaaaaybe not the best choice.
It's about attitude, not the sentence length. This is definitely not a practice anyone should be promoting, because it just leads to more noise and more confusion for most people.
EDIT:: Oh yeah, and I signed/shared the petition link, too.
Zuelu562
01-04-2013, 06:42
The space issue in the pits is part of the problem here. If there weren't so many excess people in the aisles, teams transporting robots wouldn't need to continue the practice.
Personally, at this year's WPI Regional, even with the extra pit space afforded to us because we were against an angled wall in the new building, I occasionally found myself asking students to stay in the pit area. Our team is rather small, so it wasn't an issue of too many people in the pit, it was an issue of the kids wandering ever so slightly.
I've also been on a pretty big team, and with the kids that stand around and do nothing, parents, kids talking to other kids in the aisle, etc., it can get hectic quickly. At one point we had non-essential members leave the pit, at least for a while. It was the only way we could hear ourselves think.
Obviously I'm an advocate of pit management as a solution to this issue. I understand that this solution isn't easy; 100 ft^2 isn't a whole lot of space to fit the robot AND everyone and everything you need in the pit. Let the kids and their parents get a quick shot with the robot and a chat with mentors quickly. Don't let them clog up the aisle.
Another thing someone brought up is the "Robot Only Lane", which, lets face it, would be used by people as well unless it was well enforced, and that's one or two more volunteers that events need to have (which in some cases is one or two too many).
I'm of the mind that yelling obnoxiously, unnecessarily, loudly and even rudely, is wrong, whether you're yelling "ROBOT (COMING THROUGH)" or "POPCORN, GET YOUR POPCORN HERE!". Use it when you need to, but be polite about it. Be smart.
efoote868
01-04-2013, 08:35
I'm of the mind that yelling obnoxiously, unnecessarily, loudly and even rudely, is wrong, whether you're yelling "ROBOT (COMING THROUGH)" or "POPCORN, GET YOUR POPCORN HERE!". Use it when you need to, but be polite about it. Be smart.
That's brilliant! Use a decoy! :p
I'd rather sign a letter being sent to FIRST Headquarters, rather than an internet petition. I feel that FIRST may not even be aware of the issue, and sending a letter addressing the concerns and asking for action is a lot more convincing.
Yes to all three. I would actually start out with the third one, pointing out that "safety" advisors are actually advocating practices that either hinder safety or do not advance it, in addition to actual safe practices. (And be specific.) Actually, I'd be sure to point out that it's only at some events, so there is distinct inconsistency. Then I'd cast the first two as better alternatives to one of the issues discussed previously, and note the need for better training on other items. I just think that that order makes better logical sense, better flow, that sort of thing.
Where do I sign up ?
When someone yells 'ROBOT'
I want to say "oh look, a robot ! bless your heart"
[and so on]
Question: are we all serious about this? Something like
We are writing to you today as a group of concerned mentors and volunteers. It has come to our attention that some teams are receiving advice from safety advisors that either hinders or does not advance safety. Though there is considerable variation between events, we are concerned that some competitions have begun to advocate unsafe practices or reward spectacle, potentially at the expense of safety. Here are a few examples:
• Requiring teams to yell “Robot!” when relocating, despite the contribution to chaos and dangerous noise levels in the pits. It is additionally startling and distasteful to the general public and desensitizing to teams, while a simple “please excuse us” has proven effective at many other events.
• Rewarding or abetting teams that engage in this and similar “spectacle” practices (such as stopping all traffic or attempting to control intersections) that have minimal if not negative safety consequences.
• Requiring the use of gloves in situations contrary to OSHA standards (for instance while operating small band saws), or mandating other non-standard or even unsafe practices. This can create very serious safety hazards for both teams and visitors.
As an alternative, we propose that safety advisors across all events reexamine the safety value of the practices they support, and ensure they are advocating OSHA standards correctly. In addition, we support the use of a polite escort in front of teams’ robots during transit in order to request specific people to move as required. For situations in which the pits are overly crowded, we suggest the safety advisors routinely remind teams that all equipment, personnel and visitors remain in their pit area, and that any overflow is best remedied by limiting equipment or team members (so as not to impact visitors’ access to FIRST).
Weinberger
01-04-2013, 09:29
*raises hand in support of petition*
I should point out though that many times when students yell "ROBOT" or "ROBOT COMING THROUGH" it's because they are going by a pit that has an unusual number of people standing in the front. As a student at the Philly Regional, I don't remember doing it much, but I remember having to do it a few times when I was going by a pit that had 20 people around it. Tapping everyone's shoulder and saying "excuse me" just wasn't gonna cut it.
GP goes both ways. Yelling "ROBOT" is annoying, rude, and unnecessary. But so is having too many people in your pit, and not allowing the team to get by.
This is the crux of the debate. Keep the pit area clear for transition.
-JW
omalleyj
01-04-2013, 10:53
At a recent MAR event, a small one, not quiet, but quiet enough to easily get by with an "Excuse us.", one safety captain insisted on shouting "Robot" unnecessarily loudly whenever they moved the robot. Whether anyone was in the way or even close by. I think even his team got annoyed, because at one point he is walking back from the field shouting as usual at the top of his lungs.
"Robot!" screamed he.
"Where?" queried a mentor from another team.
I looked up and, sure enough, there was no robot in sight. Apparently his team stopped following to see how far he would get. About 100 feet as it turned out. Best laugh I had all day. (he was quieter subsequently)
I'll sign.
After reading this thread, I'll sign the petition as well.
As many have pointed out, shouting "ROBOT" is rather rude and obnoxious.
In any event a simple polite excuse me is more than enough. I've been in large venues, small venues, noisy pits etc... There really is no need to be shouting "ROBOT".
A simple parade approach works well. One person leading the way clearing a path politely saying "Excuse us Please, Robot coming through" is more than adequate.
Micah Chetrit
01-04-2013, 14:47
I signed.
Kims Robot
01-04-2013, 18:06
WOW, I guess FIRST really does watch Chief Delphi!
They just released a blog about Not standing in the Aisles and NOT yelling Robot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k-INUzgV_SY)!!!
I cannot believe that they can mandate & penalize this!
I personally don't think it should be mandated either way (for or against) - and am not signing a petition. I agree that sometimes its obnoxious, but that sometimes its the most clear and efficient way (if done respectfully) to communicate your intentions. I'm ok with the FORE analogy, as long as FORE isnt being yelled directly in my ear. Though I would guess FORE! is much more akin to FRISBEE! this year!
They just released a blog about Not standing in the Aisles and NOT yelling Robot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k-INUzgV_SY)!!!
Umm, wrong link? Funny video, though.
Umm, wrong link? Funny video, though.
April fools...too bad, just when I thought this thread was going somewhere :p
Chris Hibner
01-04-2013, 21:14
April fools...too bad, just when I thought this thread was going somewhere :p
Here's the actual video blog from first: FIRST blog: Safety advisors and yelling "Robot". (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dQw4w9WgXcQ#t=42s)
Here's the actual video blog from first: FIRST blog: Safety advisors and yelling "Robot". (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dQw4w9WgXcQ#t=42s)
I figured you'd pull that one. (I hovered before clicking, KNOWING that it's 4/1. Then checked the real blog. Then looked to see just what the video was.)
GDC's going to LOVE next year--4/1 is a Tuesday. Who knows what they'll pull out then...
jwallace15
01-04-2013, 21:22
I sign. Our robot-cart-puller has a real issue with the yelling of "ROBOT!", and I do too. It draws negative attention to your team, as it distracts everyone's attention from what they're doing to just see you pulling a robot.
I was the only one in a hallway, and a robot was being pulled towards me. It was a pretty wide hallway. I was on one side, and they were on the other. Yet they still yelled "ROBOT!" at me!
A simple "Excuse us" will suffice to get someone's attention. Not the obnoxious yelling of "ROBOT!".
Kims Robot
01-04-2013, 21:30
April fools...too bad, just when I thought this thread was going somewhere :p
Sorry this was all just getting way too heavy for April 1st... and I had to find an excuse to use that video :D
Haven't checked my calendar in a while... thought it was still January. I guess that's why all the due dates for my school work seemed so far off.
So what is the point of even complaining on here? in my fours years apart of FIRST ( correct me if i'm wrong) this site does not affect the actual game manual, or anything in FIRST in that matter so it seems like the logical thing to do would actually complain to someone or somewhere ware you are not just "blowing Smoke"?
efoote868
01-04-2013, 22:12
So what is the point of even complaining on here? in my fours years apart of FIRST ( correct me if i'm wrong) this site does not affect the actual game manual, or anything in FIRST in that matter so it seems like the logical thing to do would actually complain to someone or somewhere ware you are not just "blowing Smoke"?
Even if FIRST never did anything in response to a discussion on Chief Delphi (which I disagree), I'd argue this thread is still beneficial for many reasons, such as public awareness of the issue, or discussion on the causes of the issue. Teams can now start helping the problem instead of being ignorant of an issue? Seems to me like a good enough reason.
So what is the point of even complaining on here? in my fours years apart of FIRST ( correct me if i'm wrong) this site does not affect the actual game manual, or anything in FIRST in that matter so it seems like the logical thing to do would actually complain to someone or somewhere ware you are not just "blowing Smoke"?On the one hand, the FRC Blog post literally four entries ago directly addressed a concern raised by a single person (maybe a couple, but not many) in mere days after the alliance station lifting ban. (Celebratory hugging--good question) HQ knows we're here.
More importantly in this case, we really don't need HQ to pilot and collect results of alternative methods, whether to initiate grassroots change and/or prepare a constructive letter (again not a new concept). Given that a good many of these issues can be mitigated through help of volunteer coordinators and other event-level officials, not to mention teams, this really is the logical place to start vying for change.
So what is the point of even complaining on here? in my fours years apart of FIRST ( correct me if i'm wrong) this site does not affect the actual game manual, or anything in FIRST in that matter so it seems like the logical thing to do would actually complain to someone or somewhere ware you are not just "blowing Smoke"?
Au contraire!
The discussions on Chief Delphi are monitored by FRC staff; we know this because quite often a question we CDers are divided on will be addressed early on, sometimes even before Q&A opens. (Also see Frank's "brain in a jar" blog post.) So, we know that what's going on on CD is monitored. A thread like this will at least be looked at, if not acted on. While officially, CD discussions won't affect anything in the game manual or anything else, you can bet that behind the scenes, CD has an effect. (Case in point: the 2011 minibots. TU#1 that year banned a specific class of minibots, better known as "projectiles", despite coming before Q&A opened--there had been a CD thread since Kickoff discussing launching minibots at the targets.)
Second, an official response will do almost nothing except to realign some Safety Advisors' thinking. When is the last time you saw someone observe the "no saving seats" rule? (BTW, I have seen at least one team observe that lately.)
However, that wasn't the point. If public awareness of the issue doesn't reduce the incidences (and increase the number of Safety Advisors whose robot-moving noise requirements are called into question), then maybe it's time to get FIRST to act. But by bringing the issue into the spotlight, more teams are made aware that the shouting of "Robot" is at best annoying and more frequently it's counterproductive. Fewer teams do it. FIRST, the community, can act without FIRST, the organization, acting officially. And when FIRST, the community, acts, they have a much louder presence than FIRST, the organization, just by sheer numbers, though FIRST, the organization, can win by authority of being the organizer and the rule-writers.
Which is why we are trying to bring this issue up.
Oh, and Siri: That text is just about perfect. There might be a few stylistic changes, or spelling/grammar, but those are pretty minor changes if they're even needed.
Heh, during my first event, I was so confused as to why everybody kept yelling ROBOT.
You do have a point here... but personally, I'm not really bothered by it.
toastnbacon
01-04-2013, 22:48
Is yelling robot rude? No. Is it necessary? Absolutely not. But should it be banned? I think, if nothing else, it's a part of the culture. It's exciting when a robot is coming through! I think the most appropriate response is clapping or cheering, not any mental sarcastic response. Our team has missed enough matches for it to be exciting when we actually do go. I think those who want to have earned the right of yelling robot.
As for the actual practical value of it, it's not the ultimate solution. But I think it has a place. There are those (read: me) who might accidentally run out in front of a robot if they aren't aware of its presence. But I agree that yelling robot does not give you right to crash into those in your way, and too many think it does. I imagine a combination of yelling and vanguard-ing (I hope I used that right) would provide the fastest and safest route.
My point is that trying to talk people out of yelling robot isn't going to work. But instead, educate the idiots out there. Most people don't do the wrong thing intensionally. Tell them how they're messing up, and odds are, they'll fix it. We are, after all, a community of nerds. We didn't get here by doing the stupid or wrong thing.
Also, (because I forgot to work it into my rant) I think mandating the practice of yelling is rediculus. There are clearly those who are strongly opposed, and I think we should respect that.
At a couple of events teams would have Safety Criers escort teams back to the pits to cry "ROBOT!" for them. I wanted one team to yell " Robot Parts! Freshs Robot Parts here!".
raffi383
02-04-2013, 21:37
From my understanding we didn't win the safety award at the Detroit event because of an issue we had with one of the safety judges. She stood in the aisle and would not move until we yelled robot. Instead, we walked around her.
Later, she said we bumped her with the robot when we walked around. I don't know if we did or not but after some discussion, I apologized. It didn't matter.
I heard she was the head safety judge at Troy. Hope you guys had fun there. I feel for you.
Someone also mentioned a dB meter. Another sore point with me. This is why we lost out on the safety award at the Traverse City event. The winning team had a dB meter. It didn't seem to matter because no one ever turned the sound down at the event. Does it really take a dB meter to tell you that it is too loud? When you can actual feel your head vibrating from the noise, it's too loud. We had our team members download sound meter apps on their phones and iPods.
We are planning to write a letter to UL. Just need to figure out where to send it.
Raffi
David Brinza
03-04-2013, 01:36
From my understanding we didn't win the safety award at the Detroit event because of an issue we had with one of the safety judges. She stood in the aisle and would not move until we yelled robot. Instead, we walked around her.
Later, she said we bumped her with the robot when we walked around. I don't know if we did or not but after some discussion, I apologized. It didn't matter.
<snip>
That's just wrong. :eek:
A safety adviser blocks a team moving a robot just to insist yelling "ROBOT" to get by? That's contrary to what safety is really about.
I hope someone at FIRST addresses this before personal safety issues arise.
I won't tolerate student running in the pits and I'm about to get a lot more proactive about this rude, unnecessary shouting in the pits.
Grim Tuesday
03-04-2013, 02:08
At a couple of events teams would have Safety Criers escort teams back to the pits to cry "ROBOT!" for them. I wanted one team to yell " Robot Parts! Freshs Robot Parts here!".
This is a prime example of safety theater and I think the UL advisers should be warned to avoid encouraging this.
When the safety award becomes more about being visibly safe than being actually safe, then it becomes a problem. The posters, the criers, the safety handouts do absolutely nothing.
The most useful thing I've seen a safety team do was when 1629 handed out battery spill cleanup buckets to every team at the event that didn't have the materials already. That makes sense.
Posters and advertising safety do not. A safety culture does. Also, what's the deal with putting posters above urinals? It's just weird and a little invasive.
At a couple of events teams would have Safety Criers escort teams back to the pits to cry "ROBOT!" for them. I wanted one team to yell " Robot Parts! Freshs Robot Parts here!".
I think the only acceptable thing, and team, to be yelling when moving their robot is Team 1939, the Kuh-Nig-Its, who occasionally push their robot and cry out "Bring out your dead!"
David8696
03-04-2013, 11:04
I personally like the shouting of "Robot." It's my first year in FIRST, and when I showed up at my first regional, I loved hearing "Robot! Robot!" every few minutes. And I think it's very helpful to know when to get out of the way. Quite frankly, politeness is not worth the increased risk, even if it's only very slightly increased, that the robot that you've spent the last month working on could be injured.
I personally like the shouting of "Robot." It's my first year in FIRST, and when I showed up at my first regional, I loved hearing "Robot! Robot!" every few minutes. And I think it's very helpful to know when to get out of the way. Quite frankly, politeness is not worth the increased risk, even if it's only very slightly increased, that the robot that you've spent the last month working on could be injured.
...it's not the robot we're worried about getting injured...
At our regional we had one of our team member play drum and call out "hear ye hear ye...our robot is here ye!"
Bumping into public with robot or cart is not only rude, but dangerous too! I like the venues that have one door for robot entry and one for exit like Waterford, MI!
sanddrag
03-04-2013, 14:16
I personally like the shouting of "Robot." It's my first year in FIRST, and when I showed up at my first regional, I loved hearing "Robot! Robot!" every few minutes. And I think it's very helpful to know when to get out of the way. Quite frankly, politeness is not worth the increased risk, even if it's only very slightly increased, that the robot that you've spent the last month working on could be injured.I love how everyone who posts in this thread who is in favor of yelling "Robot!" just further reinforces my points stated in the original post.
To me, the real problem is that so many teams seem to believe that the yelling of "Robot!" somehow gives them the right of way - and that the louder they yell, the more everyone should get out of their way.
As noted before, if you are late, that is not the fault of everyone in the pits. Get a good, polite vanguard to ensure safe passage. That's all that's needed.
I'd not seen the term "Safety Theater" but it seems appropriate. The floor littered with safety flyers is NOT safe. People yelling for no reason is not safe. My guess is that those flyers would go away if the award didn't exist... In fact how much of FRC "tradition" would change if the awards didn't exist?
- Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox
gabrielau23
03-04-2013, 18:05
To me, the real problem is that so many teams seem to believe that the yelling of "Robot!" somehow gives them the right of way - and that the louder they yell, the more everyone should get out of their way.
As noted before, if you are late, that is not the fault of everyone in the pits. Get a good, polite vanguard to ensure safe passage. That's all that's needed.
I'd not seen the term "Safety Theater" but it seems appropriate. The floor littered with safety flyers is NOT safe. People yelling for no reason is not safe. My guess is that those flyers would go away if the award didn't exist... In fact how much of FRC "tradition" would change if the awards didn't exist?
- Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox
See, that's what I don't want to see. I don't like it when people think they're ENTITLED to having the right of way when they have a robot. What I don't like is when there are 64 teams at a regional (ahem, DC and Chesapeake), and there are ~too many people in the pit area. I mean, there's music, the stands are ALL full (and this is a large, large convention center), there's machines running...all of this leads to a very chaotic, loud environment. However, some people just like to loaf around outside the pit, not really paying attention to anything in particular. These are the people for which, "ROBOT!" is the only way to get them to pay attention. As someone who was part of a "robot convoy" for 2537 (drive team), I've found that it's nearly impossible in some cases to get some people to pay attention. I've never been to a smaller regional so I don't know if this is a problem there as well, but all of the regionals I've been to have had 63+ teams except for DC this year, which had 59. With all those teams, it's.....hard to expect everybody to be able to see a robot all the time.
See, that's what I don't want to see. I don't like it when people think they're ENTITLED to having the right of way when they have a robot. What I don't like is when there are 64 teams at a regional (ahem, DC and Chesapeake), and there are ~too many people in the pit area. I mean, there's music, the stands are ALL full (and this is a large, large convention center), there's machines running...all of this leads to a very chaotic, loud environment. However, some people just like to loaf around outside the pit, not really paying attention to anything in particular. These are the people for which, "ROBOT!" is the only way to get them to pay attention. As someone who was part of a "robot convoy" for 2537 (drive team), I've found that it's nearly impossible in some cases to get some people to pay attention. I've never been to a smaller regional so I don't know if this is a problem there as well, but all of the regionals I've been to have had 63+ teams except for DC this year, which had 59. With all those teams, it's.....hard to expect everybody to be able to see a robot all the time.
Like sanddrag I was at the LA Regional. 65 teams, still no need to yell ROBOT.
gabrielau23
03-04-2013, 18:33
Like sanddrag I was at the LA Regional. 65 teams, still no need to yell ROBOT.
I don't think, for me, it's so much what I yell so much as that I yell. People just need something to let them know that a robot is coming down the aisle. We had about 2-3 people going down ahead of the robot. One of them was me. Sometimes, I did need to yell. Should it be regular practice? Absolutely not. Is it necessary sometimes? IMO, without a doubt yes.
DonRotolo
03-04-2013, 19:29
I don't think, for me, it's so much what I yell so much as that I yell.
Yelling to be heard is OK in my book. Being impolite is not.
gabrielau23
03-04-2013, 21:35
Yelling to be heard is OK in my book. Being impolite is not.
Then we're on the same page. ^^^See post above. I don't like impoliteness either. Drive teams are not entitled to having people move out of their way. However, "banning" would be quite harsh in my book.
Alan Anderson
03-04-2013, 23:02
People just need something to let them know that a robot is coming down the aisle. We had about 2-3 people going down ahead of the robot. One of them was me. Sometimes, I did need to yell.
I'm having a hard time visualizing this. Were people standing firm when you asked them to move, only giving way when you shouted at them? Were you actually trying to get their attention with a calm "excuse me" and/or a tap on the shoulder, or were you just walking and expecting them to understand that you wanted to clear a space for a robot following you?
gabrielau23
04-04-2013, 13:15
I'm having a hard time visualizing this. Were people standing firm when you asked them to move, only giving way when you shouted at them? Were you actually trying to get their attention with a calm "excuse me" and/or a tap on the shoulder, or were you just walking and expecting them to understand that you wanted to clear a space for a robot following you?
Basically it's extra people standing outside of the pit. We call out "Excuse me." If that doesn't work we tap them on the shoulder because usually these are the people who have their back to us. By the time we yell, "ROBOT!!" or something of the like, it's...not really a "last resort", but more like, hey, um, we've asked nicely twice, please, there's a 135 lb. robot coming through with a large driver station and cart and there's no more room in the aisle.
Basically it's extra people standing outside of the pit. We call out "Excuse me." If that doesn't work we tap them on the shoulder because usually these are the people who have their back to us. By the time we yell, "ROBOT!!" or something of the like, it's...not really a "last resort", but more like, hey, um, we've asked nicely twice, please, there's a 135 lb. robot coming through with a large driver station and cart and there's no more room in the aisle.
You're saying people still didn't get out of your way after you tapped them on the shoulder? Really?
gabrielau23
04-04-2013, 16:01
You're saying people still didn't get out of your way after you tapped them on the shoulder? Really?
Ummm.....yes?
Alexa Stott
04-04-2013, 16:05
Quite frankly, politeness is not worth the increased risk, even if it's only very slightly increased, that the robot that you've spent the last month working on could be injured.
Are you freaking kidding me?
We have participated in regionals in many different venues including the previously mentioned Boilermaker and we have never shouted robot or been late to a match because of the crowd.
This weekend was a perfect example of why I hate the practice. While standing in my pit a team walked by and a student passing by shouted ROBOT at the top of his lungs right in my ear. It was completely unnecessary.
The opposite example was a large team that we had to pass bye on our way to the field. They almost always were in the way but when we came through with our robot they always quickly and politely cleared the way for us. Very good show of how things should be done.
So we're competing in Arkansas this week, and even with the tiny arena, it's still unnecessary to yell "Robot!" Sure, you have to slow down because there's a lot of traffic, but when you have a line-of-site from your pit to the field, you don't need to go fast. Even from the teams in the wing, you can probably make it to the field in <5 minutes. So please just slow down, tap people and say "excuse me, please, robot coming through."
gabrielau23
04-04-2013, 18:57
Are you freaking kidding me?
lol............
Well us as relative new team we actually didn't know that yelling ROBOT is kind of offensive for many people. This our third season (and my first) but we try not to say ROBOT because actually everyone can see people walking with a robot. We'll try to ask to move more politely with phrases such as "excuse me please"
sabruce01
04-04-2013, 21:57
I personally don't have much of a problem with it provided they are not being rude. The kids seem to have some fun with it so as long as they are not offending people...I'm fine with it. No place for being rude though....and "please" goes a long way!
Just another anecdotal piece, one of my students told me he was commanded to yell ROBOT by a safety advisor on the way to queue at Midwest today.
Just another anecdotal piece, one of my students told me he was commanded to yell ROBOT by a safety advisor on the way to queue at Midwest today.
Could you try to speak to the lead safety advisor at the event? I'd be very interested to know where the "mandatory" practice is coming from. (And, you could also point out that there are other methods that are more polite, and possibly even safer, than yelling ROBOT.)
Frenchie461
05-04-2013, 09:26
While I agree that yelling "ROBOT" in the pit is completely unnecessary, I think that people should give people an idea that the robot is there. I'm not exactly the most observant person out there, so I would not be likely to notice a robot moving through. My favorite solution was Team 134's solution at DC, which was singing to the tune of "Row, Row, Row Your Boat" "Ro-Ro-Ro-Robot, coming down the isle. If you'd please step aside, that would make us smile."
From my understanding we didn't win the safety award at the Detroit event because of an issue we had with one of the safety judges. She stood in the aisle and would not move until we yelled robot. Instead, we walked around her.
Raffi
I would just like to point out that the correct title is Safety Advisor.
You are free to hear their advice and politely decline it. They have no authority.
Unless you are bucking for a safety award, they are not judges.
While I agree that yelling "ROBOT" in the pit is completely unnecessary, I think that people should give people an idea that the robot is there. I'm not exactly the most observant person out there, so I would not be likely to notice a robot moving through. My favorite solution was Team 134's solution at DC, which was singing to the tune of "Row, Row, Row Your Boat" "Ro-Ro-Ro-Robot, coming down the isle. If you'd please step aside, that would make us smile."
I love it. I think this has the potential of being much less irritating, but without killing the fun some teams seem to get out from the yelling. Perhaps teams could try to come up with their own variation on this.
Soft robot,
Warm robot,
Little ball of wire.
Happy robot,
Sleepy robot,
Whurr, whurr, whurr.
Alexa Stott
05-04-2013, 12:36
I love it. I think this has the potential of being much less irritating, but without killing the fun some teams seem to get out from the yelling. Perhaps teams could try to come up with their own variation on this.
Soft robot,
Warm robot,
Little ball of wire.
Happy robot,
Sleepy robot,
Whurr, whurr, whurr.
I don't understand this notion that teams are entitled to have fun by yelling at the expense of others.
Also, if yelling is the most fun thing about a FIRST event, you should probably reevaluate your involvement.
viperred396
05-04-2013, 14:21
Update from the Colorado regional:
Thus far very few have yelled "robot", there are plenty of "excuse me"
I love it!
Tytus Gerrish
05-04-2013, 14:27
Screaming робот is obnoxious and arrogant, but a petition against it is all those things and more.
dictionaria13
05-04-2013, 15:37
Disclaimer: This is my opinion, please do not give me little red dots for expressing it, controversial though it may be.
Background on me, as context: I'm fairly new to FIRST; I joined last year as a senior in high school, caught FIRST Fever, and came back to mentor my team as a college mentor.* I admit I've spent more time in the stands than in the pits at competitions (usually less "in" the stands than in front of them, where an area is usually set up for people to dance**), but I have spent my share of time in the pits, whether talking about the robot as a "pit ambassador" last year or just wandering around collecting buttons when I wasn't needed elsewhere.
What I've seen, as regards the shouting of "Robot": I haven't seen it being a problem. I've never witnessed teams caterwauling at the top of their lungs; instead, I saw teams approach a congestion point and say "robot" at a volume just above a normal speaking voice, at which point those blocking the aisle would acknowledge with an echo of "robot" and clear it. No muss, no fuss. It is possible there were teams at the events I attended who did engage in the more objectionable behavior and I was elsewhere or simply didn't notice.*** Yes, I can see how those that do constantly scream "ROBOT" can quickly get annoying, and I do agree that unnecessary noise in the pits can cause safety issues, as can people crowding out of their pits and into the aisles. However, I'm not sure arguing about it on Chief Delphi is going to do much to resolve the issue.**** This thread has turned nearly as acrimonious as the ones on student-built versus mentor-built robots, and has done about as much to resolve the issue as those do. Thank you, sanddrag, for bringing the issue to our collective attention, but fourteen pages of debate is a bit much, no? :deadhorse:
Again, this is my opinion. If you disagree with my opinion, please PM me rather than giving me negative rep. Thank you!
*Yes, I know this is not strictly recommended, I just couldn't stay away. :D
**The Pacific Northwest regionals tend to have lots of people dancing, though I understand that isn't necessarily the case elsewhere.
***Yes, I really am capable of not noticing someone screaming "robot" six inches from my ear. Huzzah for Asperger's Syndrome. :rolleyes:
****Yes, I know some of the higher-ups in FIRST read Chief Delphi. My point still stands, because the root of the problem does not lie with them.
Alex2614
05-04-2013, 18:16
I have been saying this for years. Thank you for voicing this up!
Ginspiration
05-04-2013, 23:05
Yeah, it's always kind of annoyed me that people constantly yell "robot," especially when you stop paying attention to it. I have the "priviledge" of yelling "robot" in front of my team's robot this year when we return from the field. I try to avoid yelling when possible, but when I don't (even if there are no people in front of me), I am always told by someone that I should be yelling. I understand yelling in especially crowded zones, but a simple "excuse me" should be the standard procedure when someone is in the robot's path.
DarrinMunter
07-04-2013, 11:52
Only heard ROBOT yelled a few times at Crossroads, I did hear a LOT of excuse me please! Very nice!
I think it was due to the wide aisles, carts could move around easily even with an overflow of people around the pits.
So we're competing in Arkansas this week, and even with the tiny arena, it's still unnecessary to yell "Robot!" Sure, you have to slow down because there's a lot of traffic, but when you have a line-of-site from your pit to the field, you don't need to go fast. Even from the teams in the wing, you can probably make it to the field in <5 minutes. So please just slow down, tap people and say "excuse me, please, robot coming through."
I talked to several of the Robot screamers at Razorback, and I think I made a few converts to the PVT, but there was at least one team that was yelling Robot even when the aisles were completely clear.
My drive team doesn't yell "ROBOT" anymore ever since it was considered obnoxious and unnecessary at the Sacramento Regional and the Silicon Valley Regional. We were probably the WORST offenders when we were still encouraged to yell "ROBOT." We used to yell "ROBOT" continuously when we got to queuing AND we rang a really loud bell that we had since it was the "Golden Bell Award" we got in 2009 for being an outstanding STEM program, so I know all about how ridiculous yelling "ROBOT" can be. We get through the pits fine without yelling it, but every once in a while, there's a large crowd of attendees blocking our way so we do have to yell "ROBOT" to let them know we are there, but we only have one person yell it, and not as loud as we used to. It's not really yelled, but kind of said so that it is louder that the ambient noise in the pits. I do not, however support asking every person in our path to make way. I find it inefficient. So I don't like the yelling of "ROBOT" continuously, especially when nobody is in your way, but I find that it works really well to yell "ROBOT" only when it is necessary and only if our drive team is really getting delayed. Yelling "ROBOT" when you're right behind visitors can be very startling, and when they try to clear the path, they tend to somewhat panic and try to move too fast, in turn running into other people, which I consider a serious hazard. We shouldn't get rid of yelling "ROBOT" entirely, but we should emphasize its use by being considerate with an appropriate volume, and only if it is necessary. This way of letting bystanders know that we are passing through has been working for Team 701, and we hardly ever have to yell anyway.
JennyLeigh
21-06-2013, 05:04
As chief Safety Captain for my team, I find it completely necessary to shout "ROBOT" At competitions.
Sometimes it gets carried away, but for the most part it's actually very helpful. It helps move things along in a quick and efficient manner, and creates a safer environment by reducing the chance of robot/human collision accidents, thus resulting in fewer injuries. Let me ask you this, would you rather keep everyone safe and reduce injuries considerably, and have to deal with a couple possible pesky chain-reaction shouts, OR Slow the movement of robots to the field, and produce a higher risk of injury to humans/robots?
I find the former option to be more appealing. :)
As a human, there is NEVER any reason for a robot to push pass me, even if it has a human in tow yelling "Robot" (*)
As an adult, there is never a reason for a robot to push past me with a child in tow that is yelling "robot" (cute grand kids included)
As a robotics mentor there is never a reason for a roboteer to push past me a cart of metal parts presuming to be a "robot" yelling "Robot".
Match times are set and clearly posted. Time management is part of the competition challenge. Once you are yelling "Robot" you have lost. Time to send a human player to the field and the rest of you to go back to the pits to figure out what you are doing wrong. No check list, no running time keeper, poor planning the work you can do in a set pit change, set up and management of pit parts, tools, layout; having a "Pit Boss" that is in charge. 100's of things to think about. Think about and fix them. Don't run me over.
Which in any case the final solution does not end up with a human roboteer going "Robot". Fix your root cause, do not push onto me your teams problems.
(*) The only reason a robot should push past me is if it has an injured human, in which case it's yelling "Injured Human, Please let us past" Oh wait that's what the EMS teams do. And I quickly move aside taking other people with me to clear the path.
Wayne Doenges
21-06-2013, 10:00
While at this years Championship I was going down the corridor between the arena and the pits. Some team, 30 feet behind me, was yelling "Robot" where no one was anywhere near them (except me). I turned around and asked them politely to wait until they had a reason to yell and to say "excuse me" instead.
I saw allot of teams doing this, yelling "robot" just for the sake of yelling "robot"
This is like crying wolf too many times. People ignore the warning.
sanddrag
02-08-2013, 19:57
At IRI, I did not hear a single team yell (or even say) "Robot!" anywhere at any time. It was so wonderful. So, that settles it. The world's best teams don't yell "Robot!"
At IRI, I did not hear a single team yell (or even say) "Robot!" anywhere at any time. It was so wonderful. So, that settles it. The world's best teams don't yell "Robot!"
What was really impressive was when you were moving your robot people would get out of your way without having to say a word. You could come up to a large group of people talking and they would just part like the red sea.
DampRobot
02-08-2013, 22:54
I always yell "rowboat" instead of "robot."
jwallace15
04-08-2013, 15:00
What cracks me up is when you're the only person in a walkway/hallway (or with a couple other people) and 3 drive team members from another team walk up and they yell robot. Ok there's three or less people, and we can clearly see your robot. Seriously. There's no need to shout. I can understand if it's in a big crowd (but, of course, something more polite other than ROBOT!) to speak loudly, but it's not necessary to yell to one person.
At IRI, I did not hear a single team yell (or even say) "Robot!" anywhere at any time. It was so wonderful. So, that settles it. The world's best teams don't yell "Robot!"
I heard it yelled once, then proceeded by a healthy whack on the back of the head, followed by "You dummy, just say excuse me!"
(please note that he was hit by a teammate, not someone from another team)
Justin Shelley
04-08-2013, 16:00
I think that yelling ROBOT isn't a problem when done correctly. It's just like "excuse me please" which can be said in an extremely offensive way or it can be said politely. I personally like the yelling of ROBOT as long as the person yelling it is courteous but when they're rude it is extremely offensive because humans are more important then robots. I think this problem could be solved if people were just more polite, changing words won't change anything though.
Akash Rastogi
04-08-2013, 16:25
At IRI, I did not hear a single team yell (or even say) "Robot!" anywhere at any time. It was so wonderful. So, that settles it. The world's best teams don't yell "Robot!"
It really was great. All the teams/students there were mindful enough of their surroundings and everyone just let each other know when they needed to step aside.
I always yell "rowboat" instead of "robot."We've started sort of a running bit to continually evolve what we say every time we pass certain teams/volunteers. (All spoken, not yelled.) We only do it for people we think will get a kick out of it; otherwise it's just "please excuse my robot". Scope varies by event, but IRI was great for it. We'd have conversations with random people that went literally, "Row-bot!" "Row-bot?" "Row-bot. ;)" "Row-bot..." "Row-bot :D" "Row-bot. :)", all the way to and "glow-tote" and "faux-moat".
As far as what's so grating about "ROBOT!", I'd argue it's both. It's not just the tone and relative volume--though that's probably the originating issue. The word itself compounds it: if someone's already being aggressive, there's an impression on condescension in the thought that others should move specifically because it's a robot, rather than because I'd like you to excuse me. It's also more terse, which doesn't help in this case.
It really was great. All the teams/students there were mindful enough of their surroundings and everyone just let each other know when they needed to step aside.
This. If people were more mindful of their surroundings ALL the time, things like this would not even be discussed. Remember the mindfullness takes place at BOTH ends of the robot cart.
JohnFogarty
04-08-2013, 21:11
I remember my first experience with someone yelling "Robot!" ...he wore a fuzzy hat and our entire team thought he kept yelling "RO-BUTT."
It got to the point where he did it even when no one was in front of him when he passed our pit, so we ended up collectively responding...."Yes, we know."
Wayne Doenges
26-02-2014, 12:13
It's a new season so I'm going to resurrect this thread :p
The neverending story....
Richard Wallace
26-02-2014, 12:50
Re-BOOT!
The neverending story....
That, sadly, has to be re-told every year. There are better and less irritating ways of getting safely through the pit.
On 1923 our rule is 'If I hear you pointlessly yelling ROBOT as we walk to/from the field, you're out of the pit for the weekend.' We plan on sticking to it.
There are better and less irritating ways of getting safely through the pit.
I would prefer this for example: http://www.princessauto.com/pal/en/Livestock/Solid-State-Cattle-Prod/2470301.p
I hate the "R" word
BHS_STopping
26-02-2014, 13:43
There's nothing that shouting "ROBOT!" can do that a simple "Excuse me" can't do. Shouting is terribly indirect and it's often very hard to tell if you're the one that the robot is bearing down on. Direct communication is far better.
Can this thread finally die? Please? It is not going anywhere, it is never going to go anywhere, and it serves no purpose other than creating enmity.
If you dissolve all of the conflations between the actual use of "Robot!" as a means to let people know they're in the way (which is perfectly fine, unless you have some sort of overbearing negative reaction to the word "robot") and the plethora of unrelated rude/disruptive behaviors described over the length of the thread, there's really not even that much to discuss. There's no point for 16 pages of debate about word choice.
AdamHeard
26-02-2014, 13:51
Can this thread finally die? Please? It is not going anywhere, it is never going to go anywhere, and it serves no purpose other than creating enmity.
It raises awareness.
It raises awareness.
A thread outlining those practices which are actually rude/unnecessary/disruptive would be much better at raising awareness then a thread about something tangentially related with which a whole load of other things are being conflated.
I don't think anyone here gets all that upset if a person pulling a robot cart uses the word "robot" instead of "excuse me," all other things being equal. If they do, I'd say that's a personal problem.
AdamHeard
26-02-2014, 13:57
I don't think anyone here gets all that upset if a person pulling a robot cart uses the word "robot" instead of "excuse me," all other things being equal. If they do, I'd say that's a personal problem.
Then a great deal of people in this thread have a "personal problem". Which by definition then wouldn't be a personal problem.
Then a great deal of people in this thread have a "personal problem". Which by definition then wouldn't be a personal problem.
How many people in this thread have explicitly objected to only that the word used was "robot", with absolutely no consideration for any other factors?
As I mentioned, you don't get 16 pages of debate over word choice (possible exception for the absurd rants I've seen about "graciously accept," I guess, but down those paths madness lies). Would a group of inattentive FIRST students pushing their robot down the aisle shouting "EXCUSE ME!" at the top of their lungs while expecting everyone else to magically leap out of the way be any substantively different?
A thread outlining those practices which are actually rude/unnecessary/disruptive would be much better at raising awareness then a thread about something tangentially related with which a whole load of other things are being conflated.
I don't think anyone here gets all that upset if a person pulling a robot cart uses the word "robot" instead of "excuse me," all other things being equal. If they do, I'd say that's a personal problem.
It's more about the yelling of ROBOT and echoing of ROBOT yells whenever someone hears it, and the fact that some safety advisers (at least as of last year) were telling students they were required to yell ROBOT.
It's more about the yelling of ROBOT and echoing of ROBOT yells whenever someone hears it, and the fact that some safety advisers (at least as of last year) were telling students they were required to yell ROBOT.
Yes, this is much closer to the actual problem, but this thread in particular does a really lousy job of making that clear and just ends up with people talking past each other and getting frustrated.
notmattlythgoe
26-02-2014, 14:02
Yes, this is much closer to the actual problem, but this thread in particular does a really lousy job of making that clear and just ends up with people talking past each other and getting frustrated.
Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
Not really sure what's unclear about that?
Not really sure what's unclear about that?
The fact that at most regionals I've been to, essentially all communication can be reasonably called "shouting" because the ambient noise is loud enough to cause hearing loss, for starters (FIRST really belies all of their "safety" preaching with this, it drives me crazy).
notmattlythgoe
26-02-2014, 14:05
The fact that at most regionals I've been to, essentially all communication can be reasonably called "shouting" because the ambient noise is loud enough to cause hearing loss, for starters.
The point is, only the people in your way need to be asked to move. Shouting at the top of your lungs so everybody around you is unnecessary. Asking the people in front of you to move is all that is needed. There is a difference between talking loud enough for someone to hear you in a loud venue, and shouting.
Shouting at the top of your lungs so everybody around you is unnecessary. Asking the people in front of you to move is all that is needed. There is a difference between talking loud enough for someone to hear you in a loud venue, and shouting.
This is true. It is also not immediately apparent that this is the actual problem that the thread is about, nor does it help that it's completely mixed up with a load of pedantry about what words are best to inform the people in front of you that they ought to move.
artdutra04
26-02-2014, 14:07
A thread outlining those practices which are actually rude/unnecessary/disruptive would be much better at raising awareness then a thread about something tangentially related with which a whole load of other things are being conflated.
I don't think anyone here gets all that upset if a person pulling a robot cart uses the word "robot" instead of "excuse me," all other things being equal. If they do, I'd say that's a personal problem.I'd say there are a lot of people here that find people yelling "robot!" to be obnoxious and rude, myself included. To me it's no different than someone yelling "move!" or "get out of the way!".
Unless there is a deadly accident about to occur where syllables matter, yelling "robot!" or "move!" creates the appearance that the person yelling it is viewing themselves as being more important than everyone else around them, rather than as equals.
Unless there is a deadly accident about to occur where syllables matter, yelling "robot!" or "move!" creates the appearance that the person yelling it is viewing themselves as being more important than everyone else around them, rather than as equals.
I certainly don't find this to be the case, and at any rate if this is a problem it is a problem on a scale several orders of magnitude smaller than the very real problem of people being unreasonable/unsafe while pushing their robots around.
The fact that at most regionals I've been to, essentially all communication can be reasonably called "shouting" because the ambient noise is loud enough to cause hearing loss, for starters (FIRST really belies all of their "safety" preaching with this, it drives me crazy).
I'm continuously amazed at the volume people manage to get to when screaming ROBOT!!!, above and beyond the ambience of the pits.
I certainly don't find this to be the case, and at any rate if this is a problem it is a problem on a scale several orders of magnitude smaller than the very real problem of people being unreasonable/unsafe while pushing their robots around.
It seems to me that an individual that is not abrasively yelling while moving their robot through a space is probably more likely to be both more reasonable and more safe about how they move around. An individual that's yelling robot probably assumes that some privilege re: movement / presence is conferred to them and they behave accordingly.
Carolyn_Grace
26-02-2014, 14:14
It raises awareness.
Can we make tshirts?
Collect signatures?
Ooo Ooo, who has a button maker?
....I love this thread.
I'm continuously amazed at the volume people manage to get to when screaming ROBOT!!!, above and beyond the ambience of the pits.
This is part of a general trend of unsafe behavior in the pits that is a real problem. Last year there was a team that sent out large numbers of members screaming a "safety chant" for a majority of one of the regionals I attended, which was amazingly awful (and rather unsafe). I find it intensely ironic that a lot of the jockeying for the safety award is completely irrelevant, if not actively detrimental, to pit safety.
I do think a lot of it could be immediately mitigated by FIRST not blasting their sound system the whole time and promoting a culture of "no louder than necessary" in the pits. It shocks me how many people don't appreciate how important easy communication is to a safe work space.
This is part of a general trend of unsafe behavior in the pits that is a real problem. Last year there was a team that sent out large numbers of members screaming a "safety chant" for a majority of one of the regionals I attended, which was amazingly awful (and rather unsafe). I find it intensely ironic that a lot of the jockeying for the safety award is completely irrelevant, if not actively detrimental, to pit safety.
I do think a lot of it could be immediately mitigated by FIRST not blasting their sound system the whole time and promoting a culture of "no louder than necessary" in the pits. It shocks me how many people don't appreciate how important easy communication is to a safe work space.
While I won't argue, I think safety theater for the purposes of looking more attractive for the safety award is too large of scope for this thread.
I don't think there is anything wrong with saying robot or excuse me or heads up or look out. Pick a word it doesn't matter. If some one is in your way they should move. We all know the pits are loud and crowded and guess what there are robots coming on and off the field. If everyone would pay attention and not block the path for the robots no one would feel the need to yell "ROBOT". Politeness goes both ways.
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