Our answer to the long range shooter

[bs7280]

At the Wisconsin regional we were faced against a team that could put up over 100 long range points a match by them selves. We made this shield, and after lots of discusson with the judges and eventually the head judges at FIRST, we got it approved.

In the match we beat them by one point.

Feel free to do the same against any other "Bullet Proof" robots.

https://photos-6.dropbox.com/t/0/AADNQ2Z8qm5AxXUomqn83JHeYOG3OOKTzUgSUdFsOJMyJQ/12/17533264/jpeg/32x32/3/_/1/2/Photo%20Mar%2022%2C%205%2012%2046%20PM.jpg/vGbvW5UXYaGPbdhFNUj8Z5100bJVuU9dEDdQk6TW1Po?size=1 024x768

If I can find it, ill post the video of the round

[ErvinI]

Could you upload the picture to an image host? Dropbox requires you to sign in to see the actual picture.

[Jaxom]

Could you upload the picture to an image host? Dropbox requires you to sign in to see the actual picture.

He or she needs to tell Dropbox to generate a public link, and send us that. I share pics this way all the time...

[Donut]

Another view of it that I put up last week:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/38869

Thanks to everyone on 3734 for doing this. This was by far our favorite memory from this year's regional.

[brrian27]

Very nice! Team 4184 put up something similar when we faced team 180 SPAM with them and we handed SPAM their only loss of the weekend along with the help of our other parter, team 179 Children of the Swamp. These simple additions can seriously cut into shooting by some elite teams!

[bs7280]

Sorry about that! I didn't realize dropbox would be such a pain.

http://i.imgur.com/lGqgXSU.jpg (http://imgur.com/lGqgXSU)

Team photo of us and 167 (thanks for the idea and the help! it was a lot of fun)
http://i.imgur.com/MGm4wyi.jpg (http://imgur.com/MGm4wyi)

Any team can add something like this too their robot, and is able to take it on and off without inspection (after it is inspected the first time). Works great.

[Kevin Leonard]

There were a number of teams that tried to do something similar to 195 at the Connecticut regional- the most infamous and hilarious of which was the "noodlebot" which consisted of a giant mess of noodles strapped on to team 1991 (the Dragons) robot to attempt to block their FCS-ing.
They ultimately failed.
The only somewhat successful shutdown was by a few teams during quals whose partners couldn't pick up their missed shots like a certain first seed during eliminations could ;).

[Irwin772]

This was the same thing that happened to my team at Greater Toronto West. After winning at Waterloo with 1114 and 2056 teams started to realize how effective a full court shooter could be with someone that can pick up. All of the teams that weren't the strongest shooters began to strap on whatever they could to slow us down. In elims the number two seed even picked what was dubbed by karthik to be the peacock bot to slow us down with our ground pickup partner. Unfortunately for us it worked on us quite well.

[spikeman62]

Team 558 did something very similar to our robot to stop the full court shooting onslaught that was the Cyber Knights, Team 195 at CT. I believe Team 195 posted their match videos on a different thread if you would like to see. Look at the video of match 36 and the first quarterfinal match if you want to see our blocker in action.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=115636

[akoscielski3]

This was the same thing that happened to my team at Greater Toronto West. After winning at Waterloo with 1114 and 2056 teams started to realize how effective a full court shooter could be with someone that can pick up. All of the teams that weren't the strongest shooters began to strap on whatever they could to slow us down. In elims the number two seed even picked what was dubbed by karthik to be the peacock bot to slow us down with our ground pickup partner. Unfortunately for us it worked on us quite well.

It's Funny because 4716 (peacock bot) is one of 772's rookie teams, and you were on 772 before. So you pretty much made your-self lose in elims ;) You're welcome bro :D

And BTW when the heck did you get a CD account???!!!

[Damiaen_Florian]

No one strategy is ultimately perfect. Full court shooters for example, they can be blocked, now there are many ways to counter act this as well, the full court shooter can simply cause penalties upon penalties to the other team (My team was able to do this to a team in our semi-final and ultimately had them cause 46 points in penalties) or they can have a short blocker in front of them to clear a lane for the shots, or many others which shall not be said.

I may be a bit bias because my team's robot IS a full court shooter, but it seems as though their is a negative tendency towards full court shooters and that they are a "useless strategy" but I feel that people are too quick to not explore other options in terms of strategy that could benefit them in the long run.

[2789_B_Garcia]

We are a defense-oriented team, and here's the basic evolution of our blocking mechanism from the student team-lead that oversaw the project:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2ge78Yp1itwSzdZRTFxMHc4RHM/edit

We used 1.0 against 2468 to advance to Finals at Hub City, and we were gearing up to having to use 4.0 against them at Alamo, but we were never scheduled against them in quals, and they wound up picking us for elims. To show their sense of humor, they told us that they had nicknamed all blocking mechanisms "Unappreciators" since their nickname is Team Appreciate...so naturally, we got a silver sharpie and wrote "The Unappreciator" on our blocking mechanism and then let them rename it "The Appreciator" with a black sharpie:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/frc2789/8604519597/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/frc2789/8605660668/in/photostream

We actually mounted it for semi-match 1, but the spring wasn't strong enough to support the weight of the pool noodle covered in gaffer's tape as we drove around, so we took it down.

[Woolly]

No one strategy is ultimately perfect. Full court shooters for example, they can be blocked, now there are many ways to counter act this as well, the full court shooter can simply cause penalties upon penalties to the other team (My team was able to do this to a team in our semi-final and ultimately had them cause 46 points in penalties) or they can have a short blocker in front of them to clear a lane for the shots, or many others which shall not be said.

I may be a bit bias because my team's robot IS a full court shooter, but it seems as though their is a negative tendency towards full court shooters and that they are a "useless strategy" but I feel that people are too quick to not explore other options in terms of strategy that could benefit them in the long run.

Those people who have negative tendency towards full court shooters need to be more like 1986, 1114, and 2056 and be ready to accept their full court shooting brethren, thus being ready to put them in a situation that can suit the full court shooting robot's unique talents. :cool:

Then again, I may also be biased.

[2789_B_Garcia]

Full court shooters... can have a short blocker in front of them to clear a lane for the shots...

2468 has a very reliable full-court shooter...in fact, they were the only full-court shooter at Alamo. We knew that if we (a small defensive robot with a good drivetrain) went into elims with them and a small & quick pyramid shooter (our good friends at 4063), we had a good chance at winning...and it was exactly through the strategy mentioned above (and a few others) that we were able win.

It was this same combo with 118 and 148 that won at Lone Star this year.

[Irwin772]

It's Funny because 4716 (peacock bot) is one of 772's rookie teams, and you were on 772 before. So you pretty much made your-self lose in elims You're welcome bro

And BTW when the heck did you get a CD account???!!!

As it says at the top I've had one since march 2012 I just don't use it very often. Also I'm fairly certain that if we weren't on that alliance the number 2 alliance would not have picked a defensive bot so your welcome with helping your rookie make it to worlds

[xSAWxBLADEx]

2468 has a very reliable full-court shooter...in fact, they were the only full-court shooter at Alamo. We know that if we (a small defensive robot with a good drivetrain) went into elims with them and a small & quick pyramid shooter (our good friends at 4063), we had a good chance at winning...and it was exactly through the strategy mentioned above (and a few others) that we were able win.

It was this same combo with 118 and 148 that won at Lone Star this year.

2468 has been the most devastating full court shooter I've seen this year. It is amazing that they can shoot from literately everywhere. Also, great job 2789. You guys gave 2468 the space they needed. Perfect Alliance!

[2789_B_Garcia]

2468 has been the most devastating full court shooter I've seen this year. It is amazing that they can shoot from literately everywhere. Also, great job 2789. You guys gave 2468 the space they needed. Perfect Alliance!

Thanks!

[faust1706]

With trig and extensive field testing (aka st louis regional), it is impossible for a robot to block all 3 targets if there is a robot between the full court shooter and the 80 inch blocker bot. Wonder how many teams will realize this and program a "juke mode." With a push of a button score at the far two point, another the 3 point, and another the close 2 point. ;)

[friskywombat]

2468 has been the most devastating full court shooter I've seen this year. It is amazing that they can shoot from literately everywhere. Also, great job 2789. You guys gave 2468 the space they needed. Perfect Alliance!
Thanks, we appreciate the recognition. I think mobility is the root of our success as a full-court shooter. From the beginning of the season, people have been saying that full-courters are easily defendable with a tall blocking mechanism ("unappreciators"). We try to work around the tall defensive bots by being fluid and mobile on the other side of the field. We have the ability to feed from both sides, shoot from both sides, and switch between left and right quickly if we are affronted by a tall bot. (As opposed to most full-court shooters that I have seen who will switch to being cycle-runners to the pyramid when defended). And, yes, having 2789 keep away strong defenders such as 457 and 3545 was an immense help to us.

[LoveRobots1425]

My team has been a fairly successful long-range shooter at our regionals. Our theory is that, even if we do get blocked, that occupies 1/3 of the other alliance. If we picked our elimination alliance well, they should be able to pull us through if need be, even if we can only make our autonomous, a few discs, and our 10 point climb.

Also, we did face teams that slapped tall blockers onto their robots...and some were actuated. A word of warning: it's a technical foul (20 points) for leaving your autozone when you are taller than 60". We had a match with tons of foul points because the robot defending us would periodically (presumably accidentally) leave the autozone.

[Amy_LeadFerret]

Yeah, we were pretty proud of our long range shooter and its performance in Match 51 at the Wisconsin Regional. We've honored it in this (rather grainy) video made by one of the team members - from the perspective of the FCS team, of course.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TechnoFerrets

We appreciated all the teams on our alliances who forfeited their own potential disc points to be defender defender bots in order to give our bot the opportunity to do its thing, as well as the alliance partners who passed their frisbees to our human loader as our bucket ran dry. In a rather strange way, we're pleased to have provided that competitive edge that caused other teams to have to scramble (and even post pics of their alliance partners and pit neighbors assisting with jerry rigging!) to figure out how to shut us down. All in all, an amazing three days in Milwaukee!

[PVCpirate]

The face is a nice touch, I bet it would frustrate an opposing team even more if they're getting blocked by a big face. :D

[Jaxom]

Also, we did face teams that slapped tall blockers onto their robots...and some were actuated. A word of warning: it's a technical foul (20 points) for leaving your autozone when you are taller than 60". We had a match with tons of foul points because the robot defending us would periodically (presumably accidentally) leave the autozone.

It's only a Technical ⁿif continuous or repeated violations" according to G22. Otherwise, just a normal 3 point foul.

[Jefferson]

2468 has a very reliable full-court shooter...in fact, they were the only full-court shooter at Alamo. We knew that if we (a small defensive robot with a good drivetrain) went into elims with them and a small & quick pyramid shooter (our good friends at 4063), we had a good chance at winning...and it was exactly through the strategy mentioned above (and a few others) that we were able win.

BTW, very cool to see you and 4063 (our alliance partners in Hub City) win with 2468 (a Hub City foe). Glad y'all could finish what we couldn't in Hub city.

See you in St. Louis.

[2789_B_Garcia]

BTW, very cool to see you and 4063 (our alliance partners in Hub City) win with 2468 (a Hub City foe). Glad y'all could finish what we couldn't in Hub city.

See you in St. Louis.

THANKS! Don't know if you saw the webstream, but our teams were Tweeting with the hashtag: #hubcityredemption lol

[Coach Norm]

BTW, very cool to see you and 4063 (our alliance partners in Hub City) win with 2468 (a Hub City foe). Glad y'all could finish what we couldn't in Hub city.

See you in St. Louis.

Jeff, we were very happy to see both of them available in selections. It was nice not to have to deal with them with opposing colored bumpers.

Looking forward to seeing you in St. Louis.

[GaryVoshol]

Anybody else see a blocker added during a 6-minute time-out between back-to-back matches?

[EricVanWyk]

Anybody else see a blocker added during a 6-minute time-out between back-to-back matches?

Yes.

Friendly reminder: all modifications require re-inspection.

[vikesrock777]

Anybody else see a blocker added during a 6-minute time-out between back-to-back matches?

Yeah, that also happened at Peachtree between finals-2 and finals-3. It didn't go so well for the team adding it though as they forgot (or ran out of time, not sure) to recharge their pneumatics.

[Ninja_Bait]

We turned 1991's climber into a pool noodle wall to defend against 195 in semis at CT; it was hastily duct-taped together and just barely tall enough to tip the disks off their mark. Had it been a little less droopy, it might have worked.

Of course, 20 just picked up 195's duds and popped up points anyway...

EDIT: This wasn't during a 'tween matches timeout, but we did use the timeout to get a little more time.

[bs7280]

The face is a nice touch, I bet it would frustrate an opposing team even more if they're getting blocked by a big face. :D

It was especially hilarious when their bot left to climb, we bashed into their drivers station at full speed with the face looking directly at them

[bs7280]

Yes.

Friendly reminder: all modifications require re-inspection.

Not true. They said we could take ours on and off whenever we please. Official descision was made by head refs at first.

[andres20perez]

I have seen many ways to block full court shooters.
This by far looks like the most effective method. It
doesn't look too difficult to implement. Just about
any team could modify their bots to mount it.

[vikesrock777]

Not true. They said we could take ours on and off whenever we please. Official descision was made by head refs at first.

Yeah, this is likely true for your position per rule T08
T08

At the time of Inspection, the ROBOT must be presented with all MECHANISMS (including all COMPONENTS of each MECHANISM), configurations, and decorations that will be used on the ROBOT during the entire competition event. It is acceptable, however, for a ROBOT to play MATCHES with a subset of the MECHANISMS that were present during Inspection. Only MECHANISMS that were present during the Inspection may be added, removed or reconfigured between MATCHES. If MECHANISMS are changed between MATCHES, the reconfigured ROBOT must still meet all Inspection criteria.

It sounds and looks as if your blocker is one that you've at some point presented to an inspector, and are just discussing adding and removing it as is necessary.

In order to be able to add and remove it at will, you must have at some point presented it to an inspector. Many improvised blockers being seen are created during elim matches as a response to a full court shooter and as such were not presented at a previous inspection. If doing this, teams need to make sure to get it inspected to be legal. I believe this is what Eric was referring to (though feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)

[Jefferson]

THANKS! Don't know if you saw the webstream, but our teams were Tweeting with the hashtag: #hubcityredemption lol

I missed the webstream. That's awesome!

[Tristan Lall]

Not true. They said we could take ours on and off whenever we please. Official descision was made by head refs at first.
Were you substituting another mechanism when you weren't using the blocker? If so, did the combined weight of the blocker, the other mechanism and the rest of the robot exceed 120 lb? Also, did the blocker receive inspection at least once in its final configuration?

[Austin2046]

It's only a Technical ⁿif continuous or repeated violations" according to G22. Otherwise, just a normal 3 point foul.

this was what we argued after our quarter-final matches at the Central Washington regional when we were trying to defend against 1425. in the first quarter final match we only left the auto zone at the end of the match to try to prevent 1425 from hanging and our drivers forgot to pull down our blocker all the way. we argued this should only be the 3 point foul because it was only this one instance, not repeated violations.
In the second quarter-final match we did cross the auto line extended again at the end of the match but we quickly retracted our blocker, but in this match we were still called for multiple 20 point fouls.

video of these matches:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaGdlRGwDXM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61KL9eYCsPk

I am curious, how have other regionals have been calling these fouls?

[2789_B_Garcia]

I missed the webstream. That's awesome!

http://www.justin.tv/roll24productions/b/384327507

Skip to 6:19:00 ... It's our second semi-final match...it's one of the best barn burners I've seen out of any regional this year.

...of course if you want to see our blocker flop around, you can check out our first semi-final match...we lost that one making the second semi-final match a must-win. I think the problem could have been fixed if we had put more gaffer's tape on the spring. Contrary to popular belief, duct tape doesn't fix every problem, gaffer's tape does. :)

[bs7280]

Were you substituting another mechanism when you weren't using the blocker? If so, did the combined weight of the blocker, the other mechanism and the rest of the robot exceed 120 lb? Also, did the blocker receive inspection at least once in its final configuration?

Everything plus blocker was underweight. The blocker was inspected once when it was being made, they basically just told us to make it stronger etc... After that we were allowed to take it on/off. We never needed too because we were on the long range shooter's alliance

[EricVanWyk]

Yeah, this is likely true for your position per rule T08

It sounds and looks as if your blocker is one that you've at some point presented to an inspector, and are just discussing adding and removing it as is necessary.

In order to be able to add and remove it at will, you must have at some point presented it to an inspector. Many improvised blockers being seen are created during elim matches as a response to a full court shooter and as such were not presented at a previous inspection. If doing this, teams need to make sure to get it inspected to be legal. I believe this is what Eric was referring to (though feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)

Yep, exactly. Inspected mechanisms can be removed/added at will. New bits need to be inspected.

[Siri]

I've seen what I think are two different "blocker" philosophies: walls that stop discs dead, and flexible deflectors that just changes flight paths. High weight and CG for the wall, more potential to break. Deflection might not work well enough, and still feeds a floor loader if there is one. (Not the rigid-flexible distinction I'm making refers to the mounting of the wall/sheet rather than the material forming it.)

My question (other than'is this about right') is how some of these flexible deflectors are mounted. What are people making their frames out if? 1811 has one that looks like it could go under they pyramid passively! (Just looks like it; never saw but still cool.) Granted that might cause a 54" problem drowning on how it collapses. 714 seems to use similar thugs as 'pyramid touchers'. Tres neat.

[bs7280]

I want to see a team that has an adjustable one (up or down) so that you can go across the field if needed.

[qzrrbz]

I want to see a team that has an adjustable one (up or down) so that you can go across the field if needed.

Check out the third guy on the SVR winning alliance - 1967. PVC, and it went up and down! Pretty important to the 254/118 win! :)

[Bstep]

I want to see a team that has an adjustable one (up or down) so that you can go across the field if needed.

We have one that goes up to 74 inches via our climber, and can be retracted to 60. We have only used it once because our robot is primarily offensive, but at each regional we went to we got clearance from the inspectors to take it on or off depending on who we were up against.

We faced 4030 at Seattle and Spokane and their blocker was very effective. It had the widest blocking area I've seen and could be raised up (I don't know what the max height was). The best part about 4030's blocker was that it had the "You shall not pass" meme on it.

[Travis Hoffman]

I think seeing this on a blocker would make my day:

http://youtube.googleapis.com/v/C_0fyUYB3cA

[Joe Ross]

I want to see a team that has an adjustable one (up or down) so that you can go across the field if needed.

Ours goes up to about 78 inches, and down below 28 inches, so we can block, and then follow the team under their own pyramid. Unfortunately, we only ever got to use the blocker once in a real match.

[bs7280]

Ours goes up to about 78 inches, and down below 28 inches, so we can block, and then follow the team under their own pyramid. Unfortunately, we only ever got to use the blocker once in a real match.

How did you build it to make it adjustable

[Joe Ross]

How did you build it to make it adjustable

We had two degrees of freedom. An extension that went above 60, and a rotation that went from 60 to below 28. Start position was at 60, but our normal playing configuration was rotated down below 28.