"The 24" - Off-season Idea

[Alex2614]

Some of us here at MARS have an idea that keeps floating back up to discussion every year, but never gets anywhere.

"The 24!"

What does everybody think of having a 24-straight-hour survival-of-the-fittest off-season event? It would start sometime on a Friday or Saturday evening, run through the night, and have the elims sometime the next day. Teams would need to do some serious strategizing, such as having multiple drive teams to exchange throughout the event, and figure out all of the logistics of managing their personnel and keeping them rested. I mean, we all do late nights at robotics, don't we? I'm a non-engineering mentor, and I was even there with my students multiple times at 2:00am, and even at 4:00am one night this season. So, why not do this at competition? We never sleep at competitions, either (don't lie to yourself). So why not make it real? We could even try to get Mountain Dew or RedBull or someone of the like to sponsor the event.

So, what do you think? Good idea/bad? Would you be interested in participating?

[Akash Rastogi]

At the heart of it, I love the thought of something this hardcore.

[Yipyapper]

Some of us here at MARS have an idea that keeps floating back up to discussion every year, but never gets anywhere.

"The 24!"

What does everybody think of having a 24-straight-hour survival-of-the-fittest off-season event? It would start sometime on a Friday or Saturday evening, run through the night, and have the elims sometime the next day. Teams would need to do some serious strategizing, such as having multiple drive teams to exchange throughout the event, and figure out all of the logistics of managing their personnel and keeping them rested. I mean, we all do late nights at robotics, don't we? I'm a non-engineering mentor, and I was even there with my students multiple times at 2:00am, and even at 4:00am one night this season. So, why not do this at competition? We never sleep at competitions, either (don't lie to yourself). So why not make it real? We could even try to get Mountain Dew or RedBull or someone of the like to sponsor the event.

So, what do you think? Good idea/bad? Would you be interested in participating?

I looked at it and originally thought it was a crazy idea... then I looked at it again and it still sounds like a crazy idea.

But crazy ideas tend to produce some excellent results. I think this is an excellent idea, although I'd imagine it'd be hard to get this organized and sponsored without it being an official FRC event.

Other than that, sounds pretty awesome, competitive and fun!

[Justin Montois]

We'd be there in a second. Great idea.

[Steven Donow]

This sounds like one of the most fun, insane, miserable experiences ever.


Of course I'd be game for it :D

[Gregor]

I'm down.

[ghostmachine360]

I'm in to referee, or emcee; whatever is needed.

[EricDrost]

I'd be there in a heartbeat.

[EricH]

A couple considerations:

Batteries. I would suggest that any team hosting such an event clean out the local supplies of FRC-legal batteries long enough in advance to charge them. Then all the attendees bring all their batteries and chargers. Any batteries the hosts don't want can be distributed to teams who need more after the event.

Quiet/Sleeping rooms or other arrangements. Some folks will want to sleep, at some point, and probably want someplace somewhat comfy to do it in. I'd suggest some rooms off to one side, out of the way, probably at least 4 (2 for adults, 2 for students, and separate male/female rooms for both age groups). This will also simplify some of the logistics for teams running rotations.

Would I personally be up for doing it? Possibly. But I do run out of awakeness after a couple dozen hours or less.

[sanddrag]

As a 12-year participant and now lead teacher of our team, I'd pass on this. 5 years ago, I'd probably be there, but now, I like at least a few hours separation between my days.

[Sam_Mills]

This sounds like it could be one of the most fun offseasons possible, I would definitely be in.

Only concern, people who haven't slept in days should not be using power tools or anything like that. There would have to be a prep day or two, to minimize issues with doing things last second.

[Gregor]

As a 12-year participant and now lead teacher of our team, I'd pass on this. 5 years ago, I'd probably be there, but now, I like at least a few hours separation between my days.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2sWSVRrmo :rolleyes:

[Alex2614]

A couple considerations:

Quiet/Sleeping rooms or other arrangements. Some folks will want to sleep, at some point, and probably want someplace somewhat comfy to do it in. I'd suggest some rooms off to one side, out of the way, probably at least 4 (2 for adults, 2 for students, and separate male/female rooms for both age groups). This will also simplify some of the logistics for teams running rotations

There are a number of places in the Morgantown area in which we could host such an event that have hotels nearby or even in the venue itself. Other venues have rooms in which we could set up cots or mattresses. If use a hotel, my idea would be to block out a couple rooms as a part of the registration fee. If we go the high school route, there are areas in which to sleep, including two separate gymnasiums, a cafeteria, and a lobby, as well as a hotel a couple blocks away. The university stadium has a number of places like this as well, with a couple hotels in walking distance. And this is a really safe city (especially the areas we are considering hosting) so there would be no need to stress over walking a couple blocks in the middle of the night. There would definitely be some kind of sleeping arrangement made. The idea would be to require teams to think out their sleep rotations on the fly around their match schedule.

Those of us more hardcore competitors will just have lots of coffee and mountain dew and tough the entire thing out :D

[JediMasterSaaga]

This sounds like a great idea.

[GaryVoshol]

I'm in to referee, or emcee; whatever is needed.

Can you do queuing and field reset too, all at the same time?

Cause I don't think you're going to get too many other volunteers. Working 8-10 hours is brutal enough.

[CrazyMohawk]

I'm game :) but i might have some difficulty getting there.:(

[Chris is me]

I'd try something like this but if this actually existed in my area I'd have no idea how to sell it to parents, other mentors, etc.

I hope no one would try / need to operate power tools while sleep deprived.

[Gregor]

I hope no one would try / need to operate power tools while sleep deprived.

You mean like a robot?:rolleyes:

[A_Reed]

As a referee, I would have to say no! :D Only because by the end of the day on Friday at a normal event I am already beat. The judgement, comprehension and patience of the referee crew would be paper thin by morning matches the next day.

[Tom Ore]

The judgement, comprehension and patience of the referee crew would be paper thin by morning matches the next day.

Could make for some funny video to watch later - everyone involved would be getting pretty loopy.

[lakstick]

This sounds like so much fun! Would you be willing to open it up to multiple locations? We might be able to work something out so that we can host one in Michigan!

[MDAWG25]

I, for one, would personally drive a robot 24 hours. :]

*I have programmed 22 hours straight before...

[bristyn_96]

I love the idea! It sounds like a really fun off season event to participate in. Challenge Accepted!

[JJackson]

Id be in... you may have to consider two sets of volunteers

[jar24]

I would be all for it, don't think my team would want to travel that far tho

[Justin Montois]

Id be in... you may have to consider two sets of volunteers

Or 4 sets of volunteers. Whatever it takes.

Is this thing scheduled yet? ;)

[Alex2614]

Or 4 sets of volunteers. Whatever it takes.

Is this thing scheduled yet? ;)

Unfortunately not. Still in the planning stages. I imagine it won't happen until next summer simply so we can make sure that we can make sure we plan everything properly and ensure a great event.

I, for one, would personally drive a robot 24 hours. :]

*I have programmed 22 hours straight before...

You would, Matt! I have no doubt! ;)

[cmrnpizzo14]

I would be in but transportation would be the only issue! Justin, I think we need to get started on the Rochester carpool now!

[saikiranra]

I love this.

Although we would turn like Hobbits and start adding snack breaks in the middle of the night.

[brrian27]

That sounds pretty intense. A few suggestions:

-Like others said, some sort of sleeping area would be necessary. My team attended the Tempest N' Tampa offseason event at the University of Tampa a few years ago and instead of everyone going to hotels Friday night, each team had a taped off area in the hallway/rooms that served as a sleeping area. So teams brought air mattresses, sleeping bags, etc. Something like this gives teams flexibility in sleeping shifts and such.

-Definitely would need 3 or 4 shifts of volunteers.

-And to go a full 24 hours you would need a lot of matches and therefore a lot of teams.

[Infernum3259]

This sounds like a wonderful idea! Hardcore robo for 24 hours straight!!! Im down!

[Ninja_Bait]

I've done something similar but with an entrepreneurial/business theme. I would love doing a competition that combines endurance, speed and engineer, such as one that involves building a 120-lb, 5-ft tall robot in six weeks.

;)

Seriously, though, this would be great with one of the smaller robot competitions like VEX or Tetrix.

[Tmaxxrox97]

I, for one, would personally drive a robot 24 hours. :]

*I have programmed 22 hours straight before...

I would be down with driving for that long.
It could be great driving practice... assuming I could actually remember what happened... ;)

[dellagd]

Let me just preface this by saying that I'd love to do this and would be uup for it.

I feel like such an event wouldnt work because 1) There has to be people to run he field, and finding two for every job is hard, and 2) FRC is dangerous. People have to be aware of what there doing. If you forget that your driver station is in autonomous, and you think its in teleop (an easy thing to do awake), who knows, your robot could run over someone with its auton routine. Mistakes would happen. Especially with the high climbing this year, I'd be afraid being around tired (Which has been show to have quite paralyzing effects, like with tired vs drunk driving) people driving 120 pound robots at 12 fps around me.

[rtomp]

I think this would be amazing! Most of my best, most hilarious memories are from 12:00am to 4:00am You would defiantly need 3-4 sets of volunteers and referees though and maybe only let people into the pits at certain times

[Woolly]

That sounds pretty intense. A few suggestions:

-Like others said, some sort of sleeping area would be necessary. My team attended the Tempest N' Tampa offseason event at the University of Tampa a few years ago and instead of everyone going to hotels Friday night, each team had a taped off area in the hallway/rooms that served as a sleeping area. So teams brought air mattresses, sleeping bags, etc. Something like this gives teams flexibility in sleeping shifts and such.

-Definitely would need 3 or 4 shifts of volunteers.

-And to go a full 24 hours you would need a lot of matches and therefore a lot of teams.

Or you could have just 6 teams in a Frisbee-recycling 24 hour long match. Thus a real endurance test for the robots involved.

[A_Reed]

Or you could have just 6 teams in a Frisbee-recycling 24 hour long match. Thus a real endurance test for the robots involved.

Tag team style? Keep the gates open and let the teams cycle on and off for battery changes.

[Woolly]

Tag team style? Keep the gates open and let the teams cycle on and off for battery changes.
Right, but due to the dangers of being hit in the head with a Frisbee, what would have to happen is a pit area outside the gates that you drive your robot into, and to have your team enter that pit area, you have to hit a button disabling the robot.
If you let your battery go for too long, and it dies out on the field, your alliance has to take a 40-point foul to stop the match for 6 minutes to allow you to go take your robot off the field and change it.
Mechanical/Electronic failures would be devastating, much like in the 24 hours of Le Mans.

Maybe something like this should be an invitational thing for the Einstein winners and finalists.

[pfreivald]

This sounds exactly like the kind of thing I'd have been up for as a student but am not up for as a man with gray in his beard. It sounds like a great time, and would create some awesome memories...

...but from a safety standpoint, this has "bad idea" written all over it. From tired drivers to tired pit crews to tired robot-lifters, tired people get sloppy, sloppy people make mistakes, and mistakes with power tools and robots (and just, well, sharp and/or heavy things) get people hurt.

[ghostmachine360]

This would definitely require a LOT of planning within the requirements for the teams (in terms of safety especially); but this brings the necessity of strategy to a new level.

This could be the Comrades/Ironman event of the FRC offseasons. I'm still onboard.

[Sean Raia]

I don't think 24 hours of sleep deprivation is TOO much for most who are involved in FRC (exceptions apply for older mentors).
You want to feel like crap? Stay up for 20 hours straight, get 4 hours of sleep, and then wake up.
If someone is incapable of safely operating a tool/robot, it will show. A team can simply have someone else do it.

I would be concerned most about the irritability of everyone involved. Most competitions get MORE fun as the day progresses, this one would likely suffer the opposite effect. Unless it was managed so as to keep the atmosphere consistently energetic.

[joelg236]

Why does it have to be 24 hours straight? I love the idea of playing so many matches and doing so much work, but why couldn't you spread it over a few days? Maybe even a week-long event? I guess it might be tougher on people's schedules, but it would likely be easier on people (especially mentors and parents).

[wasayanwer97]

I would be so in for this.

It's probably not a GREAT idea (It's certainly crazy), but it is one of the most fun ones I've seen in a while.

Finding willing volunteers is going to be hard. 8-10 hours at a normal competition already takes its toll on people. I'd think we'd need a good 3-4 rotations at least for them to stay sane throughout.

As many others have pointed out, there should be some sort of available rest area. Make sure thee's some available source of caffeine too! :p

Maybe something like this will take off here in California.

[vhcook]

I don't think 24 hours of sleep deprivation is TOO much for most who are involved in FRC (exceptions apply for older mentors).
You want to feel like crap? Stay up for 20 hours straight, get 4 hours of sleep, and then wake up.
If someone is incapable of safely operating a tool/robot, it will show. A team can simply have someone else do it.


In my extensive sleep-deprivation experience as a college student and subsequently an operations engineer with on-call duties, the first thing that goes is your judgement of whether you're able to safely continue. Usually the way you find out that someone is too tired is the near miss or the accident.

Since my #1 goal for the team every season is for every team member to end with the same number of fingers, toes, and eyes they started with, rogue autonomous robots seem to be magnetically attracted to me, and after seven years of on-call I discovered that sleep is no longer optional, I'm out.

[Woolly]

Rogue autonomous robots seem to be magnetically attracted to me..

...and this is why the wireless enter key needs to be invented.

[120to40]

I would be all for it. Not only would you need a good bot but also a deep drive team which could be an equalizing factor for newer teams. The only thing I can't see is how you would involve 40+ teams at a regional at a time.

[Travis Hoffman]

As a referee, I would have to say no! :D Only because by the end of the day on Friday at a normal event I am already beat. The judgement, comprehension and patience of the referee crew would be paper thin by morning matches the next day.

Suspend all rules requiring refs (no penalties). Honor system. :)

Also, no bumpers, just because.

[ken3255]

I'd be all for it. Where can I sign up? :D

[ghostmachine360]

Suspend all rules requiring refs (no penalties). Honor system. :)

Also, no bumpers, just because.

Is anarchy an option here? Because I still want 45 seconds of blizzard play at the end. Sleep-deprived students + crazy amount of frisbees in the air = frisbees to the head will wake you up. Or knock you out. :rolleyes:

[JohnFogarty]

Kyle you weren't the one getting hit with frisbee's at Peachtree like I was. :P

[Alexa Stott]

Why does it have to be 24 hours straight? I love the idea of playing so many matches and doing so much work, but why couldn't you spread it over a few days? Maybe even a week-long event? I guess it might be tougher on people's schedules, but it would likely be easier on people (especially mentors and parents).

I think a week-long event would probably be tougher on mentors and parents. Unless teachers or stay-at-home parents were the only adults there, I don't see it working out. Many mentors already have to use vacation days to attend FRC events during the regular season. I don't see many being too keen on taking an entire week off. Not to mention many students work as well. During high school, my boss was really good about giving me time off during build and competition season, but I don't know if that graciousness would have extended to an entire week off for more robotics.

I also can't help but think people might, well, get a little bored. Imagine 20-21 hours straight of just qualification matches. You'd see the same teams playing each other over and over and over again. That's not really exciting.

[bEdhEd]

I would have to wonder if the audience would be able to cheer and scream for 24 straight hours.

[Sam390250]

This would certainly be a sight to see. I remember times I wanted to hide out and sleep in my pit at night to get some extra work done ;]

I definitely imagine a lot of students dropping like flies through the evening. Tensions would probably rise within teams as well, showing the teams who can truly work together in any circumstance. The stands might be full of sleeping patrons by 2am, and zombies into the early hours of the morning.

It would be interesting to see how this could play out, but I know I would not be able to survive without sleep or a shower for 24 hours at robotics straight.

[Alexa Stott]

To add to my previous post: as someone on the planning committee for an off-season, this also sounds like a logistical nightmare.

For events hosted at a school, you need to have the custodial staff on hand. This would likely be hard to convince the district to allow, especially during the summer. I'd imagine events hosted at other venues have similar rules regarding having people from their own staff at the event. Just think what would happen if the bathrooms didn't get cleaned for the entire event. Gross.

Then there is the issue of concessions and having people to work them. Most of the volunteers that come from outside of the team end up in positions that require some knowledge of how an event goes (so things like queuing, field reset, reffing, etc.), which means most of our concessions are run by parents. Again, good luck getting parents willing to do this.

Aside from that, you'd most likely need 2 sets of volunteers, as it's pretty unreasonable to ask someone to stand on the side of the field for 24 hours straight or MC for that long. Again, as someone involved in planning an off-season, it's not that easy to come up with one set of volunteers, let alone two. Throw in that some of the staff will get the short end of the stick and end up with the graveyard shift, I don't think it'd be incredibly appealing. Additionally, while the actual event may only be 24 hours, you'd also have to consider the setup and takedown, which takes hours to do.

To add to this, teams would probably also need two separate subteams to relieve the other when they need a break. The safety issue of having people who haven't slept in a long time operating/lifting/repairing robots has been discussed fairly extensively in this thread. Speaking from personal experience, it's pretty difficult to get a team of 5-6 students who would be able to make it to a summer off-season. Many students go away on vacation, to visit relatives, to summer camps/programs, or simply just need a break.

If you can figure out a way to make this work and take care of all those issues, then more power to you.

Perhaps a different idea would be 24 hours of robotics-related fun? Have teams come in the night before for an all-night social/movie night (and, of course, allow teams and individuals to opt out) followed by the competition the next day?

[PayneTrain]

Alex, I am notorious for dropping everything to do whatever crazy FIRST idea anyone comes up with, but this is going to be a tough one to pull off.

Nonetheless, offseasons get me irrationally excited, and I want to help if I can.

[jblay]

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

[karomata]

I love the idea, I have also always wanted to see an offseason where the game is modified to run for like 10 minutes per match, but I guess for this game you would have to find a way to have the discs re-entered into the field.

[Alexa Stott]

I love the idea, I have also always wanted to see an offseason where the game is modified to run for like 10 minutes per match, but I guess for this game you would have to find a way to have the discs re-entered into the field.

Sorry, but I don't see that working...There are already way too many matches where robots just sort of don't do much of anything. Also, we'd be lucky if we were able to do much of anything after a few minutes as our battery would start to drop really low under load.

[smcmahon]

2656 is interested

[IKE]

I have done a lot of 24 hour races for Lemons and Chumpcar. This is a horrible and awesome idea at the same time.

Nelson Ledges calls theirs Longest Day. I would recommend hosting the weekend of the time change, and making it 25 hours long and calling it FIRST longest day.

[Alex2614]

Okay, I am going to attempt to reply to all of this at once.

We don't know exactly what venue we will want to host it at, but there are a number of places that have done all night events before (Relay for Life, etc).

To add to my previous post: as someone on the planning committee for an off-season, this also sounds like a logistical nightmare.

For events hosted at a school, you need to have the custodial staff on hand. This would likely be hard to convince the district to allow, especially during the summer. I'd imagine events hosted at other venues have similar rules regarding having people from their own staff at the event. Just think what would happen if the bathrooms didn't get cleaned for the entire event. Gross.

Then there is the issue of concessions and having people to work them. Most of the volunteers that come from outside of the team end up in positions that require some knowledge of how an event goes (so things like queuing, field reset, reffing, etc.), which means most of our concessions are run by parents. Again, good luck getting parents willing to do this.

If you can figure out a way to make this work and take care of all those issues, then more power to you.

Perhaps a different idea would be 24 hours of robotics-related fun? Have teams come in the night before for an all-night social/movie night (and, of course, allow teams and individuals to opt out) followed by the competition the next day?


As far as concessions, there are lots of ways we can figure it out. We have people already willing to do it, but food can be handled in a number of different ways. For example, if one of the venues that I'm lobbying for ends up being it, we will be in the middle of Morgantown (one downtown, one on the Evansdale WVU campus). Both downtown Morgantown (with downtown WVU campus) and the north side (Evansdale) are thriving with shops, restaurants, etc. WVU's catering people have done lots of really large events, not the least of which are campus-wide festivities with 10,000-20,000 people, proms, conventions, etc. Most of the restaurants will probably be willing to donate coupons if they know hundreds of really hungry kids will be invading the streets of Morgantown. Plus, we've got some really dedicated and awesome people that have expressed interest in helping out.

As far as power tools, why don't we limit their use? From what I've seen at off-season events is that most teams don't need to do much repair/building/modifying because it's already done. This event tests your personal endurance levels, why not your robot too?

Lots of caffeine will be provided, definitely. Endless supplies. We're looking into some big-name sponsors for this.

I also can't help but think people might, well, get a little bored. Imagine 20-21 hours straight of just qualification matches. You'd see the same teams playing each other over and over and over again. That's not really exciting.

You know, I never really thought of that. We will need to get creative, but I've got some ideas. Maybe we could do two competitions? With some kind of party or "robotics-related fun" in-between? Teams could also opt-in or out of the full 24 hours, and do just 12. The competition would start Friday night and into Saturday, so spectators off the street can wander in and see the excitement of kids competing after 12 hours or more straight. Around the time people will start wandering in on Saturday will be about the time for elims/awards ceremony, so now that I think about it, it won't be too bad. Especially if people are taking naps throughout the event.

This event will be coupled with a campus tour of West Virginia University, probably on Friday evening, led by students, faculty, and staff that can answer any questions you might have about attending WVU and why you should be a Mountaineer. For those of you that are looking into colleges, this would be a great opportunity to see a beautiful and growing campus (which, coincidentally, also houses an awesome FRC team, numerous other FTC/FLL teams, and a newly-started FIRST Alumni organization.

[Tetraman]

I would be in, but the team would not. There in lies the problem. I'm sure you could get a number of individuals into the idea, but to get entire teams into the idea, you won't have that many.

[Kevin Leonard]

I personally think this thing sounds really cool. If it happened sometime after IRI I would totally lobby for my team to attend (but probably not).
Good luck arranging this, and keep us posted!

[billylo]

Ok. This is do-able... suggestions to make it more fun without too much risk on machine handling...

1. Make it a charity competition event... the more points scored in the 24 hours, the more money raised for the charity of the alliance's choice. Do it for fun AND a good cause.

2. Use mega-teams (allow up to 3 FRC team robots to form a Rally-Team to go around the clock)

3. Add some social elements in parallel. Nerds need breaks too. Star-Wars/Star Trek/Real Steel/Iron Giant movie marathon, along with other chilling areas. (ultimate frisbee was a big hit at our RoboJam party in 610's field house.)

4. Follow golf's traditions. Honour system. Call your own penalties.

[ZipTie3182]

I would be in, but the team would not. There in lies the problem. I'm sure you could get a number of individuals into the idea, but to get entire teams into the idea, you won't have that many.

I don't know if this was meant by "mega-teams" but I think having people from multiple team compose a pit/drive team for a particular robot would make this more realistic. It would also add a fun cooperation element to the competition and allow people who are friends on various teams to actually compete with each other.

Most aren't crazy enough to want to do a 24 hour event but there's always those one or two on a team who are :D I would......haha

[SamanthaW]

If our team had the money or it wasn't so far a distance I would totally be down for that(I think most of the team would like it). It seems like such a cool idea! :D

[Brandon Zalinsky]

If this actually happens, I am so going! I know someone else who would, too (Jay get in here!) :D

[Jay O'Donnell]

If this actually happens, I am so going! I know someone else who would, too (Jay get in here!) :D

Sounds like my dream competition... I'm so in for this it's a great idea!

[Alex2614]

Haha, I just found this thread by chance when looking for something else. We just got done with our first ever 26-hour event, WVROX. Link to the thread here http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=128771

The event was fantastic, and went much smoother than any of us at MARS thought was possible.

[Whippet]

I would totally be in for something like this! The rest of the team, however...

What would be the rules on one-student teams with a sort-of-stolen robot? :D

[allgoodthehood]

I don't know if this was meant by "mega-teams" but I think having people from multiple team compose a pit/drive team for a particular robot would make this more realistic. It would also add a fun cooperation element to the competition and allow people who are friends on various teams to actually compete with each other.

This sounds like an amazing idea, and I love the idea of having "mega-teams."


I don't know if my whole team would be interested considering were in Minnesota, have our own off season event, and were on a tight budget. However, I could defiantly convince quite a few team members to attend with me. I would love to see this event in action hopefully next year!