View Full Version : Paper Airplanes
Headphones
28-04-2013, 01:49
As a rookie, how old is the tradition of throwing paper airplanes onto the Einstein field? I have seen several references to it dating back to 2003 or earlier.
The reason for my curiosity is that I was the person who scored a plane into the pyramid goal just before the Robowrangler's match. Pure luck, but quite awesome :D
It was the wrong color to score for the blue alliance.
;)
IDK, but I am already thinking of plans to make a rapid fire paper airplane launching robot for next time I go to St. Louis!
connor.worley
28-04-2013, 20:09
I remember seeing it in 2012 but not 2011.
I remember seeing it in 2012 but not 2011.
It was definitely there in 2011. I remember getting hit by one or two while waiting for Einstein to start.
Michael Hill
28-04-2013, 20:24
I remember it in 2004 in Atlanta
IDK, but I am already thinking of plans to make a rapid fire paper airplane launching robot for next time I go to St. Louis!
Someone beat you to it! A couple days ago there was a Cracked article about Lego creations, one of which was a paper airplane folder and launcher.
CENTURION
28-04-2013, 20:28
I heard of it being around in 2011, and saw it in 2012 and (of course) 2013.
But I didn't see any paper airplanes flying in Atlanta in 2010. Then again, in The Georgia Dome, Einstein was on the long side of the arena (where it should be!), and all the teams were able to fit on the main stands and first balcony, so there was nobody up in the nosebleed seats.
wilsonmw04
28-04-2013, 20:56
The paper airplane thing was total embarrassment. Yeah, it was cute to see them fly onto the field and stage. Did you get to see the complete mess it made of the dome? There were paper airplanes covering the stands. It's a mess that someone else has to clean up. I feel sorry for the crew that had to come behind our students and clean the dome all for the sake of a quick laugh in between matches. I wonder what they think of FIRST after World? What does that say loudly about us?
LeelandS
28-04-2013, 21:03
The paper airplane thing was total embarrassment. Yeah, it was cute to see them fly onto the field and stage. Did you get to see the complete mess it made of the dome? There were paper airplanes covering the stands. It's a mess that someone else has to clean up. I feel sorry for the crew that had to come behind our students and clean the dome all for the sake of a quick laugh in between matches. I wonder what they think of FIRST after World? What does that say loudly about us?
Seconded. The whole thing was childish. Clouds of paper airplanes flying through the air, hitting other spectators (it may just be paper, but that doesn't mean it's pleasant to get hit with), landing on the field, hitting FIRST personnel and guest speakers. I felt so much shame. I really hope this is gotten under control in the coming years. I only heard of it happening last year, and it should not be continued.
The poor custodial workers, having to pick up hundreds of paper airplanes.
It was funny at first but should have ended by the time presentations and speakers were starting. I saw very large planes made out of cardboard (st Louis maps) that could have hurt people, and people were tearing up their Championship programs which is a shame.
Having said that, has anyone ever seen a remote controlled (electric) plane around in the dome at that time? It would seem like a fitting group to pull off that sort of stunt.
Mike Marandola
28-04-2013, 21:30
I was especially surprised that they didn't even address it on the PA system. I saw many planes still being thrown even during the final Einstein matches. If one had gotten onto the field it could have been a problem.
The paper airplane thing was total embarrassment. Yeah, it was cute to see them fly onto the field and stage. Did you get to see the complete mess it made of the dome? There were paper airplanes covering the stands. It's a mess that someone else has to clean up. I feel sorry for the crew that had to come behind our students and clean the dome all for the sake of a quick laugh in between matches. I wonder what they think of FIRST after World? What does that say loudly about us?I think that they could be a cool tradition, if FIRST emphasizes picking up the ones left in the stands and not throwing them during matches and speeches. Right now their reaction more seems to be ignoring the paper airplanes and hoping they go away, which obviously isn't working...
Ian Curtis
28-04-2013, 22:10
I think that they could be a cool idea, if FIRST emphasizes picking up the ones left in the stands and not throwing them during matches and speeches. Right now their reaction more seems to be ignoring the paper airplanes and hoping they go away, which obviously isn't working...
What's the easiest way to get a bunch of high school kids to want to do something... tell them they can't!
:deadhorse: Here is last year's thread on the same subject (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106057) :deadhorse:
three_d_dave
28-04-2013, 22:12
On the cleaning up part - those paper airplanes are jobs. Less cleaning may save some FIRST funds, but it's not a burden for the cleaners. It would be different if FIRST volunteers were required.
If one had gotten onto the field it could have been a problem.
Not as bad as you might believe. The match just stops and is started over due to an "arena fault", just like what happened when the nets got clogged or the Rhoomba incident last year.
That said, I agree that no airplanes should be thrown during speeches or rounds, but to stop it entirely would be a bad idea.
wilsonmw04
28-04-2013, 22:19
On the cleaning up part - those paper airplanes are jobs. Less cleaning may save some FIRST funds, but it's not a burden for the cleaners. It would be different if FIRST volunteers were required.
Really??
Wow... I bet your parents like cleaning up after you as well.
CENTURION
28-04-2013, 22:29
On the cleaning up part - those paper airplanes are jobs. Less cleaning may save some FIRST funds, but it's not a burden for the cleaners. It would be different if FIRST volunteers were required.
That's not really how it works. Just because it will get cleaned up doesn't mean it's okay to leave a mess.
Jibri Wright
28-04-2013, 22:30
I think the idea of paper airplanes is pretty cool. This was my first time at Nationals and seeing all of the airplanes trying to make it onto the field gave our team a little bit of suspense between matches. Our team even got a few planes near the field (and wrote our team number on them :P). I personally didn't throw any airplanes when speakers or matches were going on cause i thought it was rude, but it is honestly something i'm going to remember about Nationals.
class1234567
28-04-2013, 22:32
Is it really that bad. The arena staff has to clean the stands from drinks, food ,etc. Its thier jobs so picking up paper is just part of it. Just imagine a full football game. They have to walk around the entire place cleaning. So what is a section of airplanes compared to that
Anupam Goli
28-04-2013, 22:36
Is it really that bad. The arena staff has to clean the stands from drinks, food ,etc. Its thier jobs so picking up paper is just part of it. Just imagine a full football game. They have to walk around the entire place cleaning. So what is a section of airplanes compared to that
More than that, you have some VIP's and very influential people speaking. If you were giving a speech, you would want all eyes on you, right? It's disrespectful to not give your full attention to someone who is recognizing the FIRST program for what it is.
class1234567
28-04-2013, 22:39
More than that, you have some VIP's and very influential people speaking. If you were giving a speech, you would want all eyes on you, right? It's disrespectful to not give your full attention to someone who is recognizing the FIRST program for what it is.
I agree that it is rude when people are speaking, or when matches are going. But during those intermissions it should be allowed
Is it really that bad. The arena staff has to clean the stands from drinks, food ,etc. Its thier jobs so picking up paper is just part of it. Just imagine a full football game. They have to walk around the entire place cleaning. So what is a section of airplanes compared to that
Yes, it is part of their job. It's not an easy job. For one thing, they have to deal with the trash cans (and their contents). They have to deal with containers that may or may not contain liquid and may or may not be open. They have to deal with potentially dangerous debris (say somebody breaks a bottle at a football game). And they have to do it over the entire stadium with a crew that's probably only about a fiftieth the size of just our participants (land we don't fill the whole dome).
If you were in that type of job, don't you think that you'd appreciate it if some of those folks who make a mess actually clean it up? Maybe at least put it in the nearest trash can, instead of leaving it for you to get hours later? It wasn't a brick that broke the camel's back, you know--it was a straw!
If we are to change the culture, we must BE the change--and you, sir, are not changing the culture.
Maybe I have no problem with making and throwing the airplanes (though I don't remember a single one in my time in Atlanta or Houston, or my one trip to Epcot for the Nationals--2003-2007 and 2000, respectively), but I do have a problem with people not picking them up.
wilsonmw04
28-04-2013, 22:45
I agree that it is rude when people are speaking, or when matches are going. But during those intermissions it should be allowed
I guess I have higher expectation. My students pack out all trash in our area whether it was ours or there before we sat down. That included airplanes. I find it hard to swallow the idea of intentional littering should be celebrated and allowed someone else to clean up our mess should be justified.
prerob96
28-04-2013, 22:57
I remember seeing it in 2012 but not 2011.
it happened in 2011, i remember 2137 team torc starting the throwing
Sam390250
28-04-2013, 23:04
:deadhorse: Here is last year's thread on the same subject (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106057) :deadhorse:
I too thought I was seeing deja vu!
runneals
29-04-2013, 00:18
It was funny at first but should have ended by the time presentations and speakers were starting. I saw very large planes made out of cardboard (st Louis maps) that could have hurt people, and people were tearing up their Championship programs which is a shame.
Having said that, has anyone ever seen a remote controlled (electric) plane around in the dome at that time? It would seem like a fitting group to pull off that sort of stunt.
It would be cool to have someone fly a RC plane overhead of the whole arena that has a camera on it's belly & take photos and stitch together an Ortho image of the arena. Wouldn't that be cool? I see a HamR or RC enthusiast doing something like this, since we have the spectrum that wouldn't disrupt the field WiFi.
de KD0SET
Alexa Stott
29-04-2013, 00:24
As I posted last year, what saddens me about the paper airplanes is that, when they are cleaned up, they are most likely just tossed in the trash instead of the recycling. That's a lot of paper that could've been recycled. :(
Having said that, has anyone ever seen a remote controlled (electric) plane around in the dome at that time? It would seem like a fitting group to pull off that sort of stunt.
It would be cool to have someone fly a RC plane overhead of the whole arena that has a camera on it's belly & take photos and stitch together an Ortho image of the arena. Wouldn't that be cool? I see a HamR or RC enthusiast doing something like this, since we have the spectrum that wouldn't disrupt the field WiFi.
No, it would NOT be cool. R/C aircraft--of any type--can be very dangerous. I actually have an R/C aircraft that would be perfect for flying in a dome (if it's repaired), and I wouldn't even THINK about flying over the stands, or Einstein, or any field that was being packed up--for that matter, over any field at all due to the overhead cables for the lights being a great target for stray planes, or the personnel on the fields risking being injured should something go wrong.
If I'm talking about my sub-1-lb ultramicro foamy not being safe to fly under FIRST competition conditions, then anything strong enough to carry a camera is going to be even worse--larger, heavier, more powerful, more likely to hit something or someone. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but if I was to endorse such an idea, I would A) call in a professional, or at least somebody with a ton more experience than I do, and B) clear as many people off of the floor as I could, and C) put flags on every cable so they were more visible to the pilot. Oh, and D) listen to the pro when he told me it wasn't safe to fly.
Also, I should remind you that R/C pilots fly on 2.4 GHz. The field can potentially (and sometimes does) operate on that bandwidth, though it's usually on 5 GHz, but an awful lot of other stuff operates there too. I wouldn't risk it.
Robonauts helicopter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=DojyJ9bZ4fk#t=212s) anyone? Let's just make sure that if that happens, it gets a nice frisbee shield. :rolleyes:
I think the idea of paper airplanes is pretty cool. This was my first time at Nationals and seeing all of the airplanes trying to make it onto the field gave our team a little bit of suspense between matches. Our team even got a few planes near the field (and wrote our team number on them :P). I personally didn't throw any airplanes when speakers or matches were going on cause i thought it was rude, but it is honestly something i'm going to remember about Nationals.
Please read the first line of my signature.
It would be cool to have someone fly a RC plane overhead of the whole arena that has a camera on it's belly & take photos and stitch together an Ortho image of the arena. Wouldn't that be cool? I see a HamR or RC enthusiast doing something like this, since we have the spectrum that wouldn't disrupt the field WiFi.
de KD0SET
IDK, all those cables that the lights and curtains hang from would be dangerous for the plane.
No, it would NOT be cool. R/C aircraft--of any type--can be very dangerous. I actually have an R/C aircraft that would be perfect for flying in a dome (if it's repaired), and I wouldn't even THINK about flying over the stands, or Einstein, or any field that was being packed up--for that matter, over any field at all due to the overhead cables for the lights being a great target for stray planes, or the personnel on the fields risking being injured should something go wrong.
If I'm talking about my sub-1-lb ultramicro foamy not being safe to fly under FIRST competition conditions, then anything strong enough to carry a camera is going to be even worse--larger, heavier, more powerful, more likely to hit something or someone. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but if I was to endorse such an idea, I would A) call in a professional, or at least somebody with a ton more experience than I do, and B) clear as many people off of the floor as I could, and C) put flags on every cable so they were more visible to the pilot. Oh, and D) listen to the pro when he told me it wasn't safe to fly.
Also, I should remind you that R/C pilots fly on 2.4 GHz. The field can potentially (and sometimes does) operate on that bandwidth, though it's usually on 5 GHz, but an awful lot of other stuff operates there too. I wouldn't risk it.
Quite true. I'm sitting next to a dinky little $30 toy foam plane I got a few years ago. It's quite painful to get hit by the prop: I accidentally took a small chunk of my finger out with it once. Larger RC stuff can be scary (I should know, I have an ArduCopter).
As for a Pro flying the arducopter plane, I'd be uncomfortable with that also. There are many unforeseen circumstances that could cause your airplane to cut out, crash, and cause a large disturbance. Not to mention that you need a sizable plane to carry something that takes decent footage (gopro esque).
As for the planes, I remember seeing many of them in the stream last year, and not many this year. Personally, I'd rather bounce a beach ball of balloon in the stands, less potential for danger, less waste, and more fun.
ablatner
29-04-2013, 02:05
Oh boy, this discussion again? I thought we took care of this subject after Einstein last year...
From someone's first experience at Worlds, I actually sort of liked the paper airplane thing. I was definitely surprised by it, but I don't think it would be a problem if everyone simply stopped making new ones after a while and threw away 5-10 at the end. The group that I was sitting with ended up doing that.
Of course, I guess that getting people to do so is the problem it itself.
No, it would NOT be cool. R/C aircraft--of any type--can be very dangerous. I actually have an R/C aircraft that would be perfect for flying in a dome (if it's repaired), and I wouldn't even THINK about flying over the stands, or Einstein, or any field that was being packed up--for that matter, over any field at all due to the overhead cables for the lights being a great target for stray planes, or the personnel on the fields risking being injured should something go wrong.
If I'm talking about my sub-1-lb ultramicro foamy not being safe to fly under FIRST competition conditions, then anything strong enough to carry a camera is going to be even worse--larger, heavier, more powerful, more likely to hit something or someone. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but if I was to endorse such an idea, I would A) call in a professional, or at least somebody with a ton more experience than I do, and B) clear as many people off of the floor as I could, and C) put flags on every cable so they were more visible to the pilot. Oh, and D) listen to the pro when he told me it wasn't safe to fly.
Also, I should remind you that R/C pilots fly on 2.4 GHz. The field can potentially (and sometimes does) operate on that bandwidth, though it's usually on 5 GHz, but an awful lot of other stuff operates there too. I wouldn't risk it.
EricH, my undergrad school (RPI) owned several radio controlled blimps and several members of our embedded control class (plus local robotics team) attended Championships (and other events) to fly those blimps. They had several sensors and could easily lift a camera. These weren't considered dangerous despite their size. Although slow, a torn blimp (due to hitting a cable, for instance) could have easily hurt bystanders as well.
In regards to EMI in the 2.4 Ghz range, most R/C transmitters use spread-spectrum techniques that minimize interference with itself and with other devices running locally. Even then, 900 Mhz crystals are still used on my local flying fields with plenty of reliability.
Just to give an idea of the dome's average surface area of paper airplane coverage.
http://eric.segonline.net/2013/frc/paperairplanes.jpg
wilsonmw04
29-04-2013, 07:17
Just to give an idea of the dome's average surface area of paper airplane coverage.
I think that understates the problem. You could not walk out of the dome without stepping on airplanes. Most didn't make it 20 feet.
Compromise idea:
I think a good solution would be to make it an official thing. Say "the team that gets a plane the furthest during a designated throwing time (between matches when no-one is speaking) wins a prize". You have to write your team # on each plane. You could also have a prize for greatest mass of paper airplanes cleaned up (to help with the litter issue), but that would be harder to check.
This way, everyone knows that it's not ok to throw them nonstop, but doesn't completely squelch the fun that people have throwing them (I was there in 2011, it was great to watch). It's a mini-engineering challenge. It would also let people in the stands prepare for a deluge of planes so people are aware.
No, it would NOT be cool. R/C aircraft--of any type--can be very dangerous. I actually have an R/C aircraft that would be perfect for flying in a dome (if it's repaired), and I wouldn't even THINK about flying over the stands, or Einstein, or any field that was being packed up--for that matter, over any field at all due to the overhead cables for the lights being a great target for stray planes, or the personnel on the fields risking being injured should something go wrong.
It would be cool to have an aircraft flying around taking pictures, but I agree that the Jones Dome -- set up for Einstein, with all of the people in there -- isn't a safe place to have one. Besides, even if it was safe you need to stick closer to FIRST-legal materials. Figure out how to make one of these work: http://www.brickit.dk/index.php?page=projects&id=10&step=2
Compromise idea:
I think a good solution would be to make it an official thing. Say "the team that gets a plane the furthest during a designated throwing time (between matches when no-one is speaking) wins a prize". You have to write your team # on each plane. You could also have a prize for greatest mass of paper airplanes cleaned up (to help with the litter issue), but that would be harder to check.
This way, everyone knows that it's not ok to throw them nonstop, but doesn't completely squelch the fun that people have throwing them (I was there in 2011, it was great to watch). It's a mini-engineering challenge. It would also let people in the stands prepare for a deluge of planes so people are aware.
I was thinking the same thing. This might be especially helpful to fill the voids during the time for scores to come up, or between the last couple of matches where all the planned speeches have been given. Asking kids to not do something rarely works effectively. Right before the airforce general comes on stage would be another good time, but limiting it to specific time frames might actually work.
******************************
I was very annoyed by the team that sat in front of me and continuously made planes and threw them into the heads of the volunteers 20 feet in front of them. As they were on Einstein, I didn't ruin their fun by being the grumpy old man, but they did bother me and the 30 or so volunteers they hit in the back of the head (yes, they made an airplane every few minutes for the 2-3 hours we were sitting in the stands during award ceremonies). Looking back, I probably should have just asked them to stop.
Compromise idea:
I think a good solution would be to make it an official thing. Say "the team that gets a plane the furthest during a designated throwing time (between matches when no-one is speaking) wins a prize". You have to write your team # on each plane. You could also have a prize for greatest mass of paper airplanes cleaned up (to help with the litter issue), but that would be harder to check.You could do the latter by division. Just have 4 recycling bins setup at the main street exits. (Note I've never exited from the stands, so maybe there are too many options even at the bottlenecks.) Division with the most weight/bags/whatever gets a shout-out in the next blog post. This would let teams make bunches and bunches (only throwing at the designated time), but still hopefully be invested in cleaning them up.
Chris Hibner
29-04-2013, 11:21
I hate to post this since it's going to make me sound like an a killjoy or a typical parent that yells "it's all fun and games until someone loses an eye", but here it goes:
I got hit in the side of the face Saturday with a paper airplane. I'm not sure what it was made of, but it actually hurt quite a bit. All I could think of was: a) I'm glad it didn't hit me in the eye because as bad as it hurt there's a good chance it could have seriously damaged my eye, and b) I should put my safety glasses on (which I did).
Madrose97
29-04-2013, 11:29
What's the easiest way to get a bunch of high school kids to want to do something... tell them they can't!
:deadhorse: Here is last year's thread on the same subject (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106057) :deadhorse:
I agree with this inmost cases, but the studentsof FIRST are good obidient kids that would have listened if someone told them to stop.
Edit: Bayesian updating in light of new information (in the form of posts) has rendered the previous content of this post obsolete. Please ignore.
sanddrag
29-04-2013, 11:34
This is embarrassing to our organization as a whole. In FIRST Robotics, we hold ourselves and our students to a higher standard than most, and this is not representative of the world-class organization we are. The practice needs to stopped.
In addition, throwing anything is a huge safety hazard. In Long Beach, there were beach balls going through the stands, and people were hitting them with all their might, rather violently. We nearly had expensive camera equipment topple over a railing due to an impact from a beach ball. It wouldn't be a stretch to imagine a student toppling over the railing trying to save it.
If you want to fly airplanes go to the park. The rest of us are trying to enjoy a robotics competition.
I think the airplane throwing needs to stop. I never remember it being a problem before 2011.
It's disrespectful to the arena staff since they have to pick them all up.
It's disrespectful to the field crew because they have to constantly be on alert for them hitting the field.
It's disrespectful to the VIPs and speakers because you're acting like pieces of paper are more important than they are.
It's disrespectful to each other - I saw more airplanes go into other sections of the stands than the dome floor. People probably got hit more than you think.
It's disrespectful to FIRST staff because you're ripping up the materials they worked very hard to give you (programs, maps, etc) and using them as, essentially, trash.
I'd like to share a horror story - and yeah, this is personal. Deal with it.
I was down on the floor, as I was speaking during the ceremony. So I got to see quite a few airplanes.
Now, I get ripping up your programs and making airplanes, because you clearly NEED to throw those airplanes since they're so VITALLY important to the mission of FIRST...
...but did you guys really have to use the page that was my father's tribute?
My father - Dean's older brother? He was a huge part of the FIRST community. He died this September, and the program page with his face and his story should have been at least somewhat respected and not used for that purpose. None of the things FIRST works so hard to create should have been, but that one is very personal to me. I was absolutely horrified.
Have some class. Airplanes need to stop.
It's disrespectful, it's annoying, and it's all the things FIRST and its community don't need to be.
Patrick Flynn
29-04-2013, 11:45
I think this has been pretty much beat to death but there are two largely differing views here and we're not going to change those. As someone who has sat in the 3rd deck and on the floor when the planes were being thrown I think I can weigh in here.
When I was in the 3rd deck it was awesome to see the planes raining down on the field and seeing which one would make it the farthest.
When I was sitting down on the floor it was terrifying to turn around and see all these planes being rained down on me. Now I think we all realize that many sponsors and heads of big companies are sitting down on the floor, there is no reason they should have to deal with these planes raining down on them.
The plane throwing needs to stop. Sure its cool for the people in the upper deck, But everyone down near the field should NOT have these planes getting thrown on them.
When I was in the 3rd deck it was awesome to see the planes raining down on the field and seeing which one would make it the farthest.
When I was sitting down on the floor it was terrifying to turn around and see all these planes being rained down on me. Now I think we all realize that many sponsors and heads of big companies are sitting down on the floor, there is no reason they should have to deal with these planes raining down on them.
Fair enough, this is reasonable. Thank you for the added perspective.
jvriezen
29-04-2013, 11:55
Imagine how many people DID NOT throw planes -- either due to lack of paper (or running out), mentors telling them not to, or their own personal belief that they should not do so?
Now imagine if FIRST sanctioned airplanes at designated times in some sort of competition, and made this a 'tradition.' How many of the non-throwers would be come throwers? How many more airplanes would there be total? Per person? How many injuries?
I'd rather see FIRST provide a large beach ball in each pit and ask for the planes to stop. (and ask for beach balls to be stopped during matches and speeches, etc.)
EricLeifermann
29-04-2013, 11:57
I think the airplane throwing needs to stop. I never remember it being a problem before 2011.
It's disrespectful to the VIPs and speakers because you're acting like pieces of paper are more important than they are.
I'm only commenting on this part of your post because its the only one that I think is incorrect as lots of VIPs in the VIP/Hospitality suite were making planes and throwing them, as well as the red PTC frisbees.
I'm not saying that you are wrong in any of your feelings/thoughts but the VIPs in the suite didn't seem to be feeling disrespected.
Mike Starke
29-04-2013, 12:01
On the cleaning up part - those paper airplanes are jobs. Less cleaning may save some FIRST funds, but it's not a burden for the cleaners. It would be different if FIRST volunteers were required.
Is it really that bad. The arena staff has to clean the stands from drinks, food ,etc. Its their jobs so picking up paper is just part of it. Just imagine a full football game. They have to walk around the entire place cleaning. So what is a section of airplanes compared to that
Not a burden? The clean up crews are just as exhausted as we are. Let's be "Gracious", and give them less to do, eh? I wish I had taken a picture, but I ran out real quick to go to the bathroom between matches, and there were HUNDREDS of planes in piles against the wall on the floor of the dome. I couldn't believe how many there were.
Not as bad as you might believe. The match just stops and is started over due to an "arena fault", just like what happened when the nets got clogged or the Rhoomba incident last year.
YEAHHH. Cause I'm sure the 6 teams on the field (and all of the crew) would just LOVE to stop the match, and have to go reset their robots because someone decided to throw an airplane.
I'm only commenting on this part of your post because its the only one that I think is incorrect as lots of VIPs in the VIP/Hospitality suite were making planes and throwing them, as well as the red PTC frisbees.
I'm not saying that you are wrong in any of your feelings/thoughts but the VIPs in the suite didn't seem to be feeling disrespected.
They're also the ones not being hit with them...
So this was my first time being down in the VIP seating for Einstein. I, myself, got hit right above the eye, and on the arm. And that's just me. I'm sure the LEGO executive, our Armed Forces Representatives, and every other VERY IMPORTANT PERSON loved being hit/almost hit as well. Some of these people are getting their companies to donate hundreds of thousands of dollars (plus) to FIRST. To echo what Libby said, it's just down right disrespective on so many levels.
I'm only commenting on this part of your post because its the only one that I think is incorrect as lots of VIPs in the VIP/Hospitality suite were making planes and throwing them, as well as the red PTC frisbees.
I'm not saying that you are wrong in any of your feelings/thoughts but the VIPs in the suite didn't seem to be feeling disrespected.
Talking about the VIPs on the floor.
Carolyn_Grace
29-04-2013, 12:10
Now, I get ripping up your programs and making airplanes, because you clearly NEED to throw those airplanes since they're so VITALLY important to the mission of FIRST...
...but did you guys really have to use the page that was my father's tribute?
Quite frankly, this stinks. As someone who also recently lost a dear friend, I'd be horrified to see people doing something like this with a tribute page to him.
Sorry that this added to your grief.
The sticker you gave me, that has a tribute to your dad, is proudly displayed on my clipboard. Every time that I look at it, I think about his legacy.
Airplanes look cool from above.
I got hit twice from flying debri (one a paper airplane and another a small frisbee) and it HURTS.
Hard to stop it from happening, but perhaps more people can just keep politely letting people know to not do it, and maybe it'll lesson. (Just like yelling a certain word at competition as you walk through the pits...)
LeelandS
29-04-2013, 12:14
I'm only commenting on this part of your post because its the only one that I think is incorrect as lots of VIPs in the VIP/Hospitality suite were making planes and throwing them, as well as the red PTC frisbees.
I'm not saying that you are wrong in any of your feelings/thoughts but the VIPs in the suite didn't seem to be feeling disrespected.
So what about the guest speakers from major FIRST sponsors who were giving speeches and helping present awards? The VIPs in the suites are one thing. The VIPs on stage are representatives of their companies. Do you think they felt respected having pieces of paper tossed at and around them? While they were up there, on stage, recognizing the work we do and acknowledging FIRST as a whole. Were they adequately respected?
I don't think so.
On a side note to Libby, I am so sorry your family and your father's legacy were disrespected like that. The Bart Kamen memorial sticker is proudly represented on our robot, as it is for many teams.
Headphones
29-04-2013, 12:17
I agree that the current situation needs to be adressed. Being a rookie, sitting in the third level, it seemed to be all in good fun - fold an airplane, throw it, and hope that it made it a good distance.
After hearing the perspective of those who were being hit by the many, many failed airplanes, and the wide variety of other concerns with the practice, I recognize that it either needs to be stopped or conducted in a much more controlled manner, and would like to apologize for my participation.
I'm only commenting on this part of your post because its the only one that I think is incorrect as lots of VIPs in the VIP/Hospitality suite were making planes and throwing them, as well as the red PTC frisbees.
I'm not saying that you are wrong in any of your feelings/thoughts but the VIPs in the suite didn't seem to be feeling disrespected.
Which part of the suite? I sat on the left side, and there were several students/team members from a couple teams that were throwing them, but I didn't see a single VIP in my section throwing them.
With that said, many planes from the upper deck either looped under, or turned and ended up in the crowded VIP section. During the acceptance speech for the founders award, a plane looped from the upper deck back into the VIP section, and hit a VIP from Rockwell-Collins in the face. He (colorfully) made his feelings felt, and left. This happened multiple times, and my wife was hit with one that had several staples in the nose.
I wonder what impression we left with a high level employee from a major sponsor? While Dean was telling him how much he was appreciated, a student drilled him in the face with a paper airplane. I know which message would stick in my memory.
I don't remember mass paper airplanes prior to 2011, and I've been to champs every year since 2007.
Let me preface this by stating that we really do need to get rid of the airplanes. It shows an utter disrespect to people we really appreciate.
The reality is, the airplane issue is a double-edged sword.
On the one hand, many people disrespected the speakers and people on the floor by throwing things at them. On the other hand, the excitement of Einstein and Closing Ceremonies was totally annihilated by the fact that the whole process took four hours. For many people who showed up earlier than 3pm to get good seats, it was 5+ hours.
I was down in the lower stands, section 130. I concur that the airplane throwing needs to be addressed. However, the length and boredom of Closing Ceremonies is the root cause (not starting on time, going much longer than expected). Many FLL events bring in the drama club to keep the kids entertained for 30-45 minutes while the judging process wraps up. Along the same lines, FIRST could do something for Closing Ceremonies. Perhaps in keeping with the "Make it Loud" theme, a small entertainment event could start at 3pm on Saturday.
I don't remember mass paper airplanes prior to 2011, and I've been to champs every year since 2007.
The reality is, the airplane issue is a double-edged sword.
On the one hand, many people disrespected the speakers and people on the floor by throwing things at them. On the other hand, the excitement of Einstein and Closing Ceremonies was totally annihilated by the fact that the whole process took four hours. For many people who showed up earlier than 3pm to get good seats, it was 5+ hours.
I was down in the lower stands, section 130. I concur that the airplane throwing needs to be addressed (in the very least, no more sharp edges!). However, the length and boredom of Closing Ceremonies is the root cause (not starting on time, going much longer than expected). Many FLL events bring in the drama club to keep the kids entertained for 30-45 minutes while the judging process wraps up. Along the same lines, FIRST could do something for Closing Ceremonies. Perhaps in keeping with the "Make it Loud" theme, a small entertainment event could start at 3pm on Saturday.
They could do a lot to alleviate the problem if they'd just do the following:
1) Give Dean Kamen a reasonable time limit for his speech, and make him stick to it.
2) Consolidate the giving of awards into a single ceremony, as is done for every regional competition I've ever been to and which I've never heard anyone complain about before. The awards-between-every-match system was horrid.
DjScribbles
29-04-2013, 12:40
I had the same feeling last year with the airplane throwing, that it wasn't very respectful toward the arena staff, VIPs, and people in general, and it didn't reflect well on our organization.
However, last year, the Air Force speaker actually congratulated somebody for their airplane making it on stage, and similarly the crowd went nuts when the 5pt plane was scored. These events serve as a huge encouragement to the practice, which I began to think was a tradition this year.
It's unfortunate, but I think for the airplanes to stop, something will need to be said at the event by someone that will be listened to; the idea of formalizing it a bit more is also good, and should serve to channel the enthusiasm to be less chaotic.
I'll never forget the lone janitor on the floor last year, standing on the dome floor sweeping up paper airplanes, only to have more rain down; it left me rather disgusted, however hearing that these tribute pages were made into airplanes and thrown at the stage trumps that by a huge margin...
I hate to post this since it's going to make me sound like an a killjoy or a typical parent that yells "it's all fun and games until someone loses an eye", but here it goes:
I got hit in the side of the face Saturday with a paper airplane. I'm not sure what it was made of, but it actually hurt quite a bit. All I could think of was: a) I'm glad it didn't hit me in the eye because as bad as it hurt there's a good chance it could have seriously damaged my eye, and b) I should put my safety glasses on (which I did).
I must be a killjoy also. I know the majority loves this growing tradition, I read about it last year. But this was my first time witnessing it. I was there supporting my team, with my 1 year old son and wife. We actually had to leave. You can't put or keep safety glasses on a 1 year old. We put him in the stroller and rolled over to a concourse to watch from the side, one still made it in under the canopy and hit him in the face!
So yes it may be fun, but it's certainly a safety issue. One of those in the eye could cause permanent damage, and to require every spectator to have safety glasses on is not realistic. ::ouch::
I suspect some will say (or think) it's not a place for a baby anyway. With the paper airplanes flying I agree, without them I disagree and am proud that all 3 of my kids have started in the FIRST environment as babies and have loved it ever since. They've even been considered team mascots over the years! They deserve to be there too, and shouldn't need safety gear in the stands.
Wayne Doenges
29-04-2013, 12:58
So this was my first time being down in the VIP seating for Einstein. I, myself, got hit right above the eye, and on the arm. And that's just me. I'm sure the LEGO executive, our Armed Forces Representatives, and every other VERY IMPORTANT PERSON loved being hit/almost hit as well. Some of these people are getting their companies to donate hundreds of thousands of dollars (plus) to FIRST. To echo what Libby said, it's just down right disrespective on so many levels.
We can barely get some of the students to wear their safety glasses in the pits. Can you imagine having to wear them during the ceremonies :ahh:
An paper airplane in the eye would hurt. Do you want to be the mentor that has to explain why there child had to go the emergency room for an eye injury? ::ouch::
STOP THROWING PAPER AIRPLANE!!!
Also, I saw another thing being thrown form the upper arena. I don't know what it was but it was lit with led's and seemed to have some mass to it. What were they and why would you think it was cool to throw it into the crowd?
wilsonmw04
29-04-2013, 13:12
They could do a lot to alleviate the problem if they'd just do the following:
1) Give Dean Kamen a reasonable time limit for his speech, and make him stick to it.
2) Consolidate the giving of awards into a single ceremony, as is done for every regional competition I've ever been to and which I've never heard anyone complain about before. The awards-between-every-match system was horrid.
1.You be the one to tell Mr. Kamen to limit the time of his speech. He started this event. He deserves as much time as he wants to get his point across. It our job to be a good audience.
2. The awards in between worked well. They took up the dead time between resets. If they hadn't done this it would have been even longer.
It's time for a bit of positive peer pressure next year. It's time to stop the planes before they start.
runneals
29-04-2013, 13:26
No, it would NOT be cool. R/C aircraft--of any type--can be very dangerous. I actually have an R/C aircraft that would be perfect for flying in a dome (if it's repaired), and I wouldn't even THINK about flying over the stands, or Einstein, or any field that was being packed up--for that matter, over any field at all due to the overhead cables for the lights being a great target for stray planes, or the personnel on the fields risking being injured should something go wrong.
If I'm talking about my sub-1-lb ultramicro foamy not being safe to fly under FIRST competition conditions, then anything strong enough to carry a camera is going to be even worse--larger, heavier, more powerful, more likely to hit something or someone. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but if I was to endorse such an idea, I would A) call in a professional, or at least somebody with a ton more experience than I do, and B) clear as many people off of the floor as I could, and C) put flags on every cable so they were more visible to the pilot. Oh, and D) listen to the pro when he told me it wasn't safe to fly.
Also, I should remind you that R/C pilots fly on 2.4 GHz. The field can potentially (and sometimes does) operate on that bandwidth, though it's usually on 5 GHz, but an awful lot of other stuff operates there too. I wouldn't risk it.
Yeah, I meant to say a professional person who has experience doing this type of thing, along with a pro flying machine (drone, hovercraft, helicopter, balloon, airplane, etc.). Also re the wireless, if you got a ham op, you would legally have a lot more wireless spectrum to work with that wouldn't interfere with anything.
I'm hoping to do something like this at our state fair, with their approval, and I'm a geogeek, so that's how I thought it up lolz
tr6scott
29-04-2013, 13:49
it happened in 2011, i remember 2137 team torc starting the throwing
I do not know what you are talking about...
This year TORC sat in the lower level, and we cleaned up probably 50 airplanes that landed in our section. Karma.
Meshbeard
29-04-2013, 13:56
Compromise idea:
I think a good solution would be to make it an official thing. Say "the team that gets a plane the furthest during a designated throwing time (between matches when no-one is speaking) wins a prize". You have to write your team # on each plane. You could also have a prize for greatest mass of paper airplanes cleaned up (to help with the litter issue), but that would be harder to check.
This way, everyone knows that it's not ok to throw them nonstop, but doesn't completely squelch the fun that people have throwing them (I was there in 2011, it was great to watch). It's a mini-engineering challenge. It would also let people in the stands prepare for a deluge of planes so people are aware.
This year was my first time at Championship. I thought the airplanes were obnoxious at first, but after seeing the first one hit Einstein, I took it as a challenge. Having it as an official challenge would be interesting. I could see it turning into a cool tradition. However, I could see people bringing in pre-made planes and I think that would partially ruin the spur of the moment feel. Having designated throwing times would be good to reduce the distraction factor and might make it more of a spectacle too.
I get the feeling that this "tradition" is not just going to end. So it would probably be best if FIRST put some restrictions on it and made it semi-official. Or maybe a team could organize it every year like how 399 runs Robo Prom. Maybe there could be a new objective every year, like distance one year, specific target next year, maybe smallest plane or longest flight. If it were organized like this it would be easier to get clean up organized. There could be recycle bins at the exits and people could be asked to bring all the planes near them to the recycle bins.
It was fun, but it should definitely be organized to keep it in check.
I personally thought the throwing of airplanes was juvenile and annoying. However, I also think the lack personal hygiene displayed by many FIRSTers, along with a myriad of other things to be annoying as well. I've just come to accept these things, despite my general opposition and annoyance.
Now, all that being said, the next point really struck a chord with me.
Now, I get ripping up your programs and making airplanes, because you clearly NEED to throw those airplanes since they're so VITALLY important to the mission of FIRST...
...but did you guys really have to use the page that was my father's tribute?
My father - Dean's older brother? He was a huge part of the FIRST community. He died this September, and the program page with his face and his story should have been at least somewhat respected and not used for that purpose. None of the things FIRST works so hard to create should have been, but that one is very personal to me. I was absolutely horrified.
Have some class.
Seriously? What's wrong with the people who did this? Are people not familiar with the concept of respect? You're really going to take a memorial page for a pillar of the FIRST community and turn it into a paper airplane? This wasn't the only example of blatant disrespect I saw at the event. The number of people who were walking around and chatting both during the moment of silence and the national anthem during opening ceremonies was appalling. Even though this was just a small portion of the community, it still stuck out like a sore thumb. We can do better than this.
1.You be the one to tell Mr. Kamen to limit the time of his speech. He started this event. He deserves as much time as he wants to get his point across. It our job to be a good audience.
That he is responsible for the event does not mean he is faultless - I respect the man greatly (how could I not, given what FRC has done for me?), but to not give frank criticism of his tendency towards over-long speech-making (to put it very lightly would verge on dishonesty. I don't think anyone who attended that event can say with a straight face that his speech during closing ceremonies was appropriately-lengthed.
2. The awards in between worked well. They took up the dead time between resets. If they hadn't done this it would have been even longer.
The total duration may have been longer, but the flow of the event would have been vastly improved. It killed the momentum and felt tedious.
The paper airplanes need to stop. I was on the floor of the arena, and custodians were having to sweep constantly to keep the area clean before ceremonies begin. There was a huge pile of paper (I'm talking easily 100) that did not include the ones they couldn't get to all around the floor.
Yes, Einstein does go on for a long time. FIRST has been actively trying to shorten it as much as possible, but several factors must be considered:
a. Einstein practice matches - trying to ensure against connection issues
b. Sponsor recognition - giving sponsors the ability to present the awards
c. Match cycle times - there's only so fast you can go, especially with wanting to get rulings and counts right.
The paper airplanes need to stop. I was on the floor of the arena, and custodians were having to sweep constantly to keep the area clean before ceremonies begin. There was a huge pile of paper (I'm talking easily 100) that did not include the ones they couldn't get to all around the floor.
Along with the floor, think of all of the planes in between the rows of seats in the stands, which can't be cleaned until after everyone leaves.
As one of our team's 2 reps sitting on the field in front of Einstein, I want everyone to think of all the other people also sitting on the floor. Team representatives, VIPs, volunteers, FIRST staff, media, government officials, leaders of corporate sponsors - all being bombarded by planes. In some cases, I witnessed a few planes flying with great velocity hitting unsuspecting backs and heads. Yes, they're paper, but if made right, they can hurt.
After reading Libby's comment, of the page honoring her own father, Dean's brother, being ripped out and folded into planes - I am just disgusted. We're FIRST. We should be better than that. Represent our community well.
CENTURION
29-04-2013, 17:23
After hearing what Libby had to say, and the story about the Rockwell Collins rep, I'm definitely in agreement; The airplanes need to stop.
If you think Einstein takes too long: Sorry, but that's just how it is. Would you rather they sped the whole thing up, but had inaccurate scores? It takes a certain amount of time to reset the field, even more so this year, where the discs need to be counted, hanging points need to be checked, and then hanging robots safely removed, and more robots loaded on, and more driver stations connected. That's not even mentioning that in between finals matches, teams need to make sure their robot is ready, which includes changing batteries, charging air tanks, and the like.
Those same delays exist at Regional events, it's just part of how the game works.
Whining "but we were a little bored and had to wait for the match to start!" is no reason to disrespect our sponsors, volunteers, VIP's, and fellow teammates.
That said, I'm all for reorganizing the Einstein ceremony to the way regionals are; Final matches followed by awards.
I just thought I'd point this out:
My company (Boeing) had a booth in the Sponsor area of the pit which featured a paper airplane contest.
It provided instructions on how to make better paper airplanes and the contest entailed landing the airplane on an aircraft carrier.
On one hand, if the students had an urge to throw airplanes they could have gotten it out of their system at the booth. On the other hand, I suppose many people gained a new skill from the booth and wanted to show it off.
stephenmcd71
29-04-2013, 17:50
What i was really mad at is the blatant disrespect for all the speakers and for the teams that made it to Einstein. Yes seeing the one going into the pyramid goal was cool but when a speaker starts to speak let alone the KAMEN family speaks I see it as total disrespect.Then to see the ones flying towards the field during a match only hoping they wouldn't hit the field and get in the way of the hard-work these kids and mentors put in was ridiculous I was sitting in section 120-121 (the Canadian section was totally awesome when 610 and 1241 btw) had to run to get the seats I didn't appreciate getting paper airplanes and near the end ripped up paper bootleg confetti. There were parents sitting next to me who had most likely been from Canada who probably spent a small fortune to see there grandchildren do something incredible then get rained on by airplanes and bootleg paper confetti.
Also, I saw another thing being thrown form the upper arena. I don't know what it was but it was lit with led's and seemed to have some mass to it. What were they and why would you think it was cool to throw it into the crowd?Somebody threw a frisbee from the stands during one of the speeches that landed next to our Einstein pit. That was bloody terrifying. It seemed to be an isolated incident, but I tucked everyone behind our pit carts for the duration anyway. Seriously, people, a frisbee?
Someone was also flashing laser pointers down on the field. Me and Tom Nader were trying to see if we could spot the idiot.
stephenmcd71
29-04-2013, 17:58
Also, I saw another thing being thrown form the upper arena. I don't know what it was but it was lit with led's and seemed to have some mass to it. What were they and why would you think it was cool to throw it into the crowd?
Yes i saw that too got hit with one almost it was a plastic small light-up disc really thrown from where they were throwing them from that could of done tons of damage to people.
jwallace15
29-04-2013, 18:00
Yes i saw that too got hit with one almost it was a plastic small light-up disc really thrown from where they were throwing them from that could of done tons of damage to people.
I saw that disc fall and thought "Oh my god that could seriously hurt someone".
sarah_storer
29-04-2013, 18:16
After reading the post from Libby and the post about the VIP getting hit in the eye, I am disgusted about how the other FIRST kids acted during Einstein.
However, I think that a compromise WOULD work. Consolidating the airplane throwing to certain times and giving a different goal each year would be fun and COULD actually become a constructive tradition.
A competition to see who could recycle the most airplanes by division would be VERY helpful as well. [And maybe even fun!]
But really guys? Throwing the airplanes during the speeches and matches? Have some respect.
I am sorry to say that I threw some airplanes Satrday afternoon, and after reading about the other side of the story, I will not do it again next year. I apologize for anyone I may have hit and the mess that I contributed to.
Someone was also flashing laser pointers down on the field. Me and Tom Nader were trying to see if we could spot the idiot.
I saw the green ones pointing up on the ceiling from the seats on the floor, is that what you are talking about? I thought those were neat how they were moving in time with the music, but yes, I can see why shining them towards the field is bad.
EricH, my undergrad school (RPI) owned several radio controlled blimps and several members of our embedded control class (plus local robotics team) attended Championships (and other events) to fly those blimps. They had several sensors and could easily lift a camera. These weren't considered dangerous despite their size. Although slow, a torn blimp (due to hitting a cable, for instance) could have easily hurt bystanders as well.
In regards to EMI in the 2.4 Ghz range, most R/C transmitters use spread-spectrum techniques that minimize interference with itself and with other devices running locally. Even then, 900 Mhz crystals are still used on my local flying fields with plenty of reliability.
The reference was to heavier-than-air birds (planes, quadcopters, helicopters). Lighter-than-air birds tend to be much slower and have enclosed propellers; these combined with being lighter makes an R/C blimp a bit safer than your average R/C airplane.
@runneals: I won't go so far as to say that no professional R/C pilot would accept such an offer. However, there are far too many things that can go wrong--flying over people, flying in an area with obstacles, carrying a payload (though that part depends on the plane). However, I would hazard a guess that a pilot who did such a thing would end up on AMA's "We don't want this guy around" list, like the person who flew an R/C airplane under multiple NYC bridges using only a POV camera for location and then posted the video online. There ARE safety codes, folks, and flying over people is highly discouraged! I would say that very few pro-type pilots would even consider it after you mentioned the people on the floor and the cables, or once they saw them.
I saw the green ones pointing up on the ceiling from the seats on the floor, is that what you are talking about? I thought those were neat how they were moving in time with the music, but yes, I can see why shining them towards the field is bad.
There were two green ones, and I'm fairly certain they were hand held lasers, of probably a Class III nature. Not only would it be a fairly un-provable distraction in the biggest match of your life, but that could hurt! (Side note: If someone can direct me to a Class I green laser, I'd very much love having one.)
They could do a lot to alleviate the problem if they'd just do the following:
1) Give Dean Kamen a reasonable time limit for his speech, and make him stick to it.
2) Consolidate the giving of awards into a single ceremony, as is done for every regional competition I've ever been to and which I've never heard anyone complain about before. The awards-between-every-match system was horrid.
Deans speeches have been quite a bit shorter than they have been in past. He knows he can be long winded and dry and has shortened them up, but he does have a message to get out and it can only be cut so short.
The awards used to be all in one setting. Everyone complained about that and about the dead time while setting up for the next match, so they broke the speeches and awards up into smaller pieces and use them in between matches.
You can't have it both ways.
I was disappointed by the conduct of students throwing paper planes and in their Mentors for not stopping it. I was concerned for people's safety. The stands are a place where safety glasses are not required (and should not need to be. its a place where you should be able to relax.)
I would have more to say about this, but couldn't possibly say it better than Libby did. It was embarrassing.
I fully expect this to result in another unenforceable rule, like noisemakers or saving seats, but enforceable or not, it has to be spelled out, apparently. We can't just rely on common sense.
I fully realize that we are dealing with 25,000 young adults. That means half adult and half child. Unfortunately, in situations like this, the child half often takes over. This is why we have Mentors or chaperones, in this case, to remind the students to stop and think before they act in situations like this. I'm disappointed more Mentors didn't step in here. I know, had my team been here, our teachers would have had the whole team on the bus and gone if they behaved like that.
Andy Grady
29-04-2013, 18:39
Personal opinion here, but I think it's highly disrespectful that this airplane throwing has reached this point.
It was cute at first, but once the ceremonies start there should be none. It even disapponted me further when I saw mentors doing it too, during a speech.
I won't even get into the danger of eye injury, that should be common sense.
This one is on us, not FIRST. Think about the safety and the message it sends, and lets fix it.
jwallace15
29-04-2013, 18:45
Personal opinion here, but I think it's highly disrespectful that this airplane throwing has reached this point.
It was cute at first, but once the ceremonies start there should be none. It even disapponted me further when I saw mentors doing it too, during a speech.
Yeah, I agree. Sure, it may be fun for a few throws, but people have to know when enough is enough.
It was really disrespectful to see people throwing them during matches as well as during speeches.
I'm sure Woody Flowers would agree with me in saying that that isn't graciously professional.
Now, I admit to throwing some paper airplanes, but once the awards ceremonies/Einstein matches started, I ceased.
I see a no projectile throwing rule being added in the near future.
I see a no projectile throwing rule being added in the near future.
Would that go before or after the no saving seats rule?
One other food for thought - Say you're a student, and you see members from another team preparing to throw a paper airplane. Are you in your place to tell them not to throw it? Who would, short of the people on stage, have jurisdiction to tell someone that their practice is unsafe, rude, and unnecessary?
One other food for thought - Say you're a student, and you see members from another team preparing to throw a paper airplane. Are you in your place to tell them not to throw it? Who would, short of the people on stage, have jurisdiction to tell someone that their practice is unsafe, rude, and unnecessary?
If it's a safety issue, throw caution out the window instead of paper airplanes and tell them that it's a safety issue--if that airplane hits someone in the eye, they could be blind in that eye for life. Safety is EVERYONE's jurisdiction.
I am sorry to say that I threw some airplanes Satrday afternoon, and after reading about the other side of the story, I will not do it again next year. I apologize for anyone I may have hit and the mess that I contributed to.
I saw the green ones pointing up on the ceiling from the seats on the floor, is that what you are talking about? I thought those were neat how they were moving in time with the music, but yes, I can see why shining them towards the field is bad.
Someone had a red one too and was flashing it on the floor.
CENTURION
29-04-2013, 19:25
One other food for thought - Say you're a student, and you see members from another team preparing to throw a paper airplane. Are you in your place to tell them not to throw it? Who would, short of the people on stage, have jurisdiction to tell someone that their practice is unsafe, rude, and unnecessary?
I don't see why FIRST can't make an announcement about it. I'm sure someone at HQ will be reading this thread, and maybe doing something about it. A good stern announcement before the Einstein ceremony begins would stop it I think.
I don't see why FIRST can't make an announcement about it. I'm sure someone at HQ will be reading this thread, and maybe doing something about it. A good stern announcement before the Einstein ceremony begins would stop it I think.
I think we need Frank and this blogging awesomeness this year.
Annemarie433
29-04-2013, 20:07
As a rookie, how old is the tradition of throwing paper airplanes onto the Einstein field? I have seen several references to it dating back to 2003 or earlier.
The reason for my curiosity is that I was the person who scored a plane into the pyramid goal just before the Robowrangler's match. Pure luck, but quite awesome :D
I was down on the field when that happened and thought it was pretty amazing.. especially for a rookie! I have been waiting 2 years to do that!!
pntbll1313
29-04-2013, 20:21
There were only a few kids on my team that were folding planes and we told them to stop as soon as we saw. The vast majority knew it was disrespectful and did not throw any. One student from my team (a freshmen) leaned over to another group of students from another team and told them to stop because it was a safety issue. That made me happy :) This needs to stop. At the very minimum have a paper airplane contest in an open area in the pits. Kids can be creative there just like they were with the other games and the duct tape sculptures. All the while being respectful and safe.
Someone had a red one too and was flashing it on the floor.
Ed, one of the Archimedes teams had a red laser pointer on their robot. Not sure if they were one of the ones that made it to Einstein, but it could have been their robot, not a person.
Nawaid Ladak
29-04-2013, 20:46
I see both sides of the argument for and against the throwing of the paper airplanes. It's cool to watch them fly down from the stands when your on the dome floor. It's NOT cool to get hit by them. I'm a huge sucker for pageantry and traditions, but there is a time and place for everything.
I always hear the Championship Event called "The Superbowl of Smarts". If FIRST wants to be taken seriously, there is only one clear option.
If you throw something at the Superbowl from the stands. Security promptly escorts you out of the venue. All it would take is one idiot being caught on the big screen throwing a paper airplane followed by security escorting them out for these planes to be grounded permanently. a PSA video and signs wouldn't hurt either. This policy should also be applied for other silly things like laser pointers and frisbees.
If you can sit through the boring part of a movie, or a rain delay at a baseball game, I'm sure you can sit patiently while people who you should consider to be role models try to speak to you and get you to understand what you need to do to be successful in the future.
But then again, of the 25,000 people in the stands, what is the percentage of people who will actually end up reading this post? 6%? maybe 8%?
Just my $0.02
BrendanB
29-04-2013, 20:58
If people want the paper plane throwing to stop, email/contact FIRST about it, offer a suggestion, etc...
One way to end it would be to have a few volunteers/arena staff in the upper deck to address the issue as it happens along with a safety announcement after the upper deck is opened up not to throw objects.
three_d_dave
30-04-2013, 03:06
Really??
Wow... I bet your parents like cleaning up after you as well.
<intro>OK - not covering anything about respect for the speakers, sponsors, the possibility of losing an eye, or damaging memorial pages from programs. Those are negatives that need dealing with. This reply is only about jobs and cost.</intro>
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Ummm - I'll bet plumbers hate cleaning out drains, and trash collectors hate collecting trash, and I'm pretty sure urologists are not keen on the location of the prostate, but they all (mostly?) like the paycheck.
The stadium workers have jobs they would not have if there wasn't anything they could do. If everyone just brought lunch, those food kiosk workers could go home. If there was nothing to pick up, the cleaners wouldn't have to work. If everyone was completely honest and knew where everything was, the rest of the staff could be let go as well instead of looking after the property and answering the same question about fifty times each day.
But, of all the messes, paper airplanes have got to be the lowest on the list. They aren't sharp (paper cuts aside), sticky, wet, smelly, or particularly contaminated with spit, snot, or drool.
If FIRST gets stuck with the equivalent of a mini-bar charge for paper airplane disposal, then it's time to reconsider based on the cleaning cost. But if you were one of the cleaners, would you want to clock out an hour or two early, or would you be thankful for a couple more hours in the paycheck?
Don't underestimate the dignity in every job.
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Ed, one of the Archimedes teams had a red laser pointer on their robot. Not sure if they were one of the ones that made it to Einstein, but it could have been their robot, not a person.
The laser was on the floor a hundred feet from Einstein near the stands. Someone probably brought one in and was screwing around.
wilsonmw04
30-04-2013, 07:25
Don't underestimate the dignity in every job.
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I really don't know how to respond to this. It sounds like you are saying that it's ok to make a mess because we are providing work for someone? Is that the gist of it? That logic is so flawed I can't believe you actually said that. If I may be so bold to extend your logic out a bit further.
1. littering at the local park or nature reserve is ok, because you are providing someone a job to clean up after you.
2. speeding/reckless driving is your civic duty because it allows the state trooper to keep their job.
3. Allow companies to ruin the environment b/c it gives the EPA a reason to exist.
Does any of that make sense? It should not in our society. Believe me the folks who work at the dome have more than enough to do after an event like ours. They don't have to pick up airplanes to feed their families.
maybe we, in the FIRST community, need to work on changing our own culture before we work on society's...
But then again, of the 25,000 people in the stands, what is the percentage of people who will actually end up reading this post? 6%? maybe 8%?
I'll bet one or two people from each team will read this. All it takes is for one of them to bring this up at their team meeting and for the responsible leaders on each team to be made aware of it.
<intro>OK - not covering anything about respect for the speakers, sponsors, the possibility of losing an eye, or damaging memorial pages from programs. Those are negatives that need dealing with. This reply is only about jobs and cost.</intro>
<Soap Box mode = on>
Ummm - I'll bet plumbers hate cleaning out drains, and trash collectors hate collecting trash, and I'm pretty sure urologists are not keen on the location of the prostate, but they all (mostly?) like the paycheck.
The stadium workers have jobs they would not have if there wasn't anything they could do. If everyone just brought lunch, those food kiosk workers could go home. If there was nothing to pick up, the cleaners wouldn't have to work. If everyone was completely honest and knew where everything was, the rest of the staff could be let go as well instead of looking after the property and answering the same question about fifty times each day.
But, of all the messes, paper airplanes have got to be the lowest on the list. They aren't sharp (paper cuts aside), sticky, wet, smelly, or particularly contaminated with spit, snot, or drool.
If FIRST gets stuck with the equivalent of a mini-bar charge for paper airplane disposal, then it's time to reconsider based on the cleaning cost. But if you were one of the cleaners, would you want to clock out an hour or two early, or would you be thankful for a couple more hours in the paycheck?
Don't underestimate the dignity in every job.
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Spoken like a true CEO...
Don't underestimate the arrogance of those who think minimum wage makes it okay to treat people like dirt.
...
Don't underestimate the dignity in every job.
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I don't entirely disagree with your post, but if you want the workers to be able to take pride in their work, maybe they'd prefer to spend a couple hours really polishing the stadium above "par" rather than just picking up airplanes to get it back to "par". What you've got there is the broken window fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window): you're claiming that by making something dirty, you're employing someone and thus creating activity in the economy. But really, the global quality of life is higher if the dirtied/broken thing had remained clean in the first place. In this case, the cleaner's time could either be spent with his/her family or by cleaning the stadium to a higher standard.
Also, you say that "wouldn't they rather be cleaning planes than sticky goop: they still have to clean up all the sticky goop left by us as well. It's not like everyone said: "hey, let's toss planes instead of drinking pop/sandwiches/candy/etc" that day.
Any solution to the paper airplane issue has to include cleanup. Whether that is banning them entirely or creating a reward system for cleaning them.
CENTURION
30-04-2013, 10:32
<intro>OK - not covering anything about respect for the speakers, sponsors, the possibility of losing an eye, or damaging memorial pages from programs. Those are negatives that need dealing with. This reply is only about jobs and cost.</intro>
<Soap Box mode = on>
Ummm - I'll bet plumbers hate cleaning out drains, and trash collectors hate collecting trash, and I'm pretty sure urologists are not keen on the location of the prostate, but they all (mostly?) like the paycheck.
The stadium workers have jobs they would not have if there wasn't anything they could do. If everyone just brought lunch, those food kiosk workers could go home. If there was nothing to pick up, the cleaners wouldn't have to work. If everyone was completely honest and knew where everything was, the rest of the staff could be let go as well instead of looking after the property and answering the same question about fifty times each day.
But, of all the messes, paper airplanes have got to be the lowest on the list. They aren't sharp (paper cuts aside), sticky, wet, smelly, or particularly contaminated with spit, snot, or drool.
If FIRST gets stuck with the equivalent of a mini-bar charge for paper airplane disposal, then it's time to reconsider based on the cleaning cost. But if you were one of the cleaners, would you want to clock out an hour or two early, or would you be thankful for a couple more hours in the paycheck?
Don't underestimate the dignity in every job.
<Soap Box mode = off>
Those stadium workers already have jobs. Their job is to clean the stadium. They would be there cleaning that night whether paper airplanes were thrown or not. That doesn't mean it's okay to make a ton more work for them. Creating a bigger mess does not create more jobs, it just make the ones that exist harder.
Trash collectors come by each week to collect your trash, no matter what. That doesn't mean you should leave your trash strewn all over your front yard instead of in the can.
Janitor's job is to clean a building, and keep it running. Just because they mop the floors doesn't mean you should pour soda all over it.
I personally thought it was cool, I was on the field and to the rookie who made it in the five point goal you are my hero. There is a time and a place for it and it is before the finals start, and maybe when they anounce the champions, but while there are guests speaking and matches being played i mean c'mon really?
I'd like to share a horror story - and yeah, this is personal. Deal with it.
I was down on the floor, as I was speaking during the ceremony. So I got to see quite a few airplanes.
Now, I get ripping up your programs and making airplanes, because you clearly NEED to throw those airplanes since they're so VITALLY important to the mission of FIRST...
...but did you guys really have to use the page that was my father's tribute?
My father - Dean's older brother? He was a huge part of the FIRST community. He died this September, and the program page with his face and his story should have been at least somewhat respected and not used for that purpose. None of the things FIRST works so hard to create should have been, but that one is very personal to me. I was absolutely horrified.
[/B]
How could this possibly keep going for 3 pages after that horrific story? And even then, when people are justifying it by saying that "Oh, well, janitors and whatnot. I'm keeping them in a job right now, so you should back off telling me to not throw a paper airplane."
I'd be all for a designated paper airplane contest at a specific location with no chance of someone downrange of the flyer, USING DESIGNATED PAPER, but on Einstein? Really? Is it necessary? It's hard to watch the match ahead of me when I'm afraid of being nailed from behind me. I came to St. Louis to actually watch the FIRST Championship, not for a chance to toss a paper airplane from an upper balcony.
I always thought the paper airplane thing (which I remember from at least one year in Atlanta) was a creative, pseudo-engineering, organic/spontaneous, participatory activity. From the stands, it didn't seem embarrasing at all when done before the actual closing ceremony/matches.
I was not hugely concerned about the risk of serious injury; given the number of planes thrown over the years, with no reported (on CD, at least) serious injury means the odds are quite low.
I was even planning how to get our team involved in recycling the airplanes as a fundraising/community assistance opportunity.
Then I read this thread.
Libby Kamen, I commend you for not losing it on stage during the Image Award presentation and telling people how grotesque and disgusting their actions were.
The story of the Rockwell executive is telling.
You all have convinced me - this is not an acceptable activity.
But the big problem, and I think the big impetus for the airplane throwing in the first place, is the "down time" BEFORE the Einstein events begin. Not the length of the Einstein events themselves, but rather the time between when seating is opened for the general public, and when the action/awards/recognition begins. This can be hours, if you want any kind of a decent seat. There is nothing on the big screen, no music, just sitting in the seats with lots of adrenaline flowing because of what you just saw on your competition field and what you anticipate.
So I think an official ban on paper airplane throwing is reasonable, but I think it is much more likely to succeed if there is something to do/watch in the Einstein seating areas before the Einstein events begin.
Some thought/suggestions:
Show the videos the students have made, i.e. the Safety videos, and if it returns the AutoDesk Animation Award videos.
Have music for dancing
Have lessons for some of the more popular dances (e.g. Macarena, Electric Slide, etc.)
Show highlight reels from some of the District/Regional competitions (yes, someone would have to make/narrate these; but I bet people would be happy to help)
Mascot/flag parade.
I strongly feel the main reason paper airplane throwing begins is boredom. Alleviate that, and stop it before it starts, and no one should be throwing anything while the Einstein events themselves are occuring.
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