[FTC]: FTC Block Party! Official Thread

[jwallace15]

I'm not in FTC, but I thought a thread should be started about the 2014 FTC game: Block Party!

My initial thoughts on the game: Raising the flag and hanging will be among some of the biggest scoring opportunities. Balancing the high goals is a big opportunity too (pushing into the low goals seems like less of an advantage).

Any other thoughts?

[Jay O'Donnell]

Raising the flag seems like a pretty easy task to me for the amount of points it's worth. Also having done a VEX game involving cubes before, I think it will be very easy to score cubes. Balancing the goals sounds fun.

[maths222]

Auto looks big this year, and more manageable/doable than last year.

Does anyone have projected high scores?

[Christian Z]

I think that swerve drive can have lots of advantages for this game!

[jwallace15]

I think that swerve drive can have lots of advantages for this game!

How so? The only one I can think of is in Auton (driving sideways to find the goal with the IR beneath it. Like driving sideways scanning for it or similar) or doing the same in teleop, when trying to make the top goals even.

[Christian Z]

I think that it will have a great advantage in Teleop as well. It could be much easier to put equal amount of blocks on both sides of the balance. Also swerve drive does have its advantage against defense in FTC as well.Also I think that it could be a great help with aligning with the corner flags.

[Nemo]

This reminds me of Rebound Rumble.
1) Valuable end games that are pretty doable (but not as easy as balancing).
2) Getting 2 robots hanging is a lot harder than 1 (like triple balancing).
3) You need the right combination of robots on your elimination rounds alliance for the end game.
4) Teleop will become more important at higher levels, even though end game might dominate a lot of the earlier qualifier rounds.

[cadandcookies]

First, here's a fairly bare-bones google doc (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgnP9ZaIOfcTdG1UZS1mUU0xaTBfMTVTeF9VOEl1c Gc&usp=sharing) I made breaking down scoring for the game (just create a copy to use it yourself; comment any issues you find please!). A couple small things about that-- auto scoring is worth 42-3 or 22-3 points because the block is scored after teleop too. I'll also be editing this to make it more intuitive to use and to comply with any rule changes that are introduced, as well as adding estimate points for different "archetypes" of robots.

Based on that spreadsheet (which hopefully isn't too far off of reality), here's my general predictions:

1: A single robot should be able to score 20-40 points in autonomous mode fairly consistently (plus another 20 if they can do IR). This of course assumes that the robot is designed to quickly complete the autonomous mode, which most likely won't be the case for teams with pincer-arms.

2: Flag raising is easy. Based on experiments with the field at our kickoff event, it takes about 17 turns to raise the flag all the way. If you can manage 2 turns a second, it's less than 10 seconds for raising the flag.

3: Balance bonus is awesome. It provides an opportunity for teams to really jump up from behind.

4: Balancing is potentially worth more than hanging and flag raising combined.

5: Scoring on the lower level looks surprisingly profitable-- those count as block points too if it's balanced!

6: Defence will be difficult. Pendulums are almost as bad as pyramids from Ultimate Ascent, and the flag is even more restrictive.

Those are my thoughts right now. I'm probably going to be thinking though mechanisms and how to play the game all night, so I might add to this.

[Garrett.d.w]

Hi there,
Shameless plug!
A few Pigmice alumni and current team members have gotten together for the Autodesk Week 1 FTC Build.

We will be sharing our take on the game as well as our design, prototyping and building process in a live stream as well as video clips posted separately.

http://www.autodeskweek1.com/#!home/mainPage

See ya all around!
Garrett

[cadandcookies]

[Awesome stuff]

Garrett

Really liking this. Thank you for doing this, I'll definitely be showing it to my FTC students and mentors!

[MARS_James]

Balancing the high goals is a big opportunity too (pushing into the low goals seems like less of an advantage).


If you only push into the low goals you are automatically balanced so it does have a slight advantage there. I haven't read the manual but it seems like scoring in your opponents pendulum to throw it off balance might be worth it.

[Eisa]

I haven't read the manual but it seems like scoring in your opponents pendulum to throw it off balance might be worth it.

You cannot put blocks in your opponents' goal during the end game. This is probably to prevent the sabotage of the balance bonus. You could, however, dump a ton of blocks one one side of their pendulum before the end game starts, so the opposing alliance cannot balance it in time. But you would be giving up a ton of points, and you might do more harm for your alliance than good.

[16skittles]

Hmm... After last season for FTC I was able to catch the very end of the season of an FRC team. With springs allowed in the game manual (It may always be that way, we were a rookie team last year and everything was a scramble) I hope that we can implement some lifting system similar to the one we used for Ultimate Ascent.

[BobbyVanNess]

I wish I had some affiliation with FTC this year... I've built a bot for a somewhat similar VEX game. :rolleyes:

Check out WPI Savage Soccer 2012. The game was played with wooden cubes. We had one of the highest scoring bots. Here's the link to a video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMWYcsjCLNw

I think autonomous could be a huge advantage in this game. Would it be possible to collect a full load of cubes and score them in autonomous?

[Nuttyman54]

I think autonomous could be a huge advantage in this game. Would it be possible to collect a full load of cubes and score them in autonomous?

No, the rules state that if any blocks other than the pre-loaded autonomous blocks are scored in auto, the alliance's entire block score from auto is discounted.

[16skittles]

No, the rules state that if any blocks other than the pre-loaded autonomous blocks are scored in auto, the alliance's entire block score from auto is discounted.

Would it still be legal to reload the bot with four blocks ready to be placed before driving up onto the bridge? Or would it be ineffective? It's all a matter of time, I guess. A few seconds saved might not be worth the effort of autonomous loading. With the bridge score, if you can make full bridge, is worth more than the twelve points you could have as soon as teleop begins. If the best you can do reliably is the ten-point half bridge, then maybe that twelve point capability with the little bit of saved time could be a good thing.

[jwallace15]

Is there anything in the rules about raising flags in auton/raising your opposing alliance's flag? That could be done in auton to sabotoge the other alliance's end game.

[Eisa]

Is there anything in the rules about raising flags in auton/raising your opposing alliance's flag? That could be done in auton to sabotoge the other alliance's end game.

http://s24.postimg.org/rtwbu06xh/299549_326557697459710_2056515321_n.jpg

[Charmanderella]

<GS6> states "During the Autonomous period, robots can only score pre-loaded blocks. If any other blocks other than the two autonomous blocks are scored by an Alliance during the autonomous period, their autonomous period block score is zero...." Would it be possible to score in the opposing alliance pendulum/floor goal so that they score three blocks, thus making their autonomous score zero? ...Or would it put our alliance score at zero?

[Scott_4140]

<GS6> states "During the Autonomous period, robots can only score pre-loaded blocks. If any other blocks other than the two autonomous blocks are scored by an Alliance during the autonomous period, their autonomous period block score is zero...." Would it be possible to score in the opposing alliance pendulum/floor goal so that they score three blocks, thus making their autonomous score zero? ...Or would it put our alliance score at zero?

The rule seems pretty specific that it applies to the Alliance performing the action.

<GS6> During the Autonomous Period, Robots can only Score pre-loaded Blocks. If any Blocks other than the two Autonomous Blocks are Scored by an Alliance during the Autonomous Period, their Autonomous Period Block Score is zero. They can, however, still get a Bridge Bonus.

[Scott_4140]

<GS6> states "During the Autonomous period, robots can only score pre-loaded blocks. If any other blocks other than the two autonomous blocks are scored by an Alliance during the autonomous period, their autonomous period block score is zero...." Would it be possible to score in the opposing alliance pendulum/floor goal so that they score three blocks, thus making their autonomous score zero? ...Or would it put our alliance score at zero?

That's assuming you got an extra block.

If you scored your Autonomous block in their goal, I'd bet you just gave them an extra 22-43 points!

[Mr. 1033]

Anyone else play around with a "max score calculation"?

If my team's assumptions are correct we calculated it to be 705.

This of course is all 100 blocks scored in outer goals, max score in autonomous (both scored in IR outer goal and both fully on bridge), and an endgame where the flag is raised fully and both robots hang/hang on each other and then the pole.

This would leave the other alliance with a scoring potential max of 175.

Let me know if we went somewhere wrong in the math.

Thanks!

[Dan Oelke]

Has anyone been successful in printing the one page game description?

http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FTC/Game_Info/2013/FTC-2013-2014_Game_One_Page.pdf

I've tried a number of things and there seems to be an error in the PDF. I can read it on the screen, but not print it no matter which machine/OS/etc I try.

[Scott_4140]

Anyone else play around with a "max score calculation"?

If my team's assumptions are correct we calculated it to be 705.

This of course is all 100 blocks scored in outer goals, max score in autonomous (both scored in IR outer goal and both fully on bridge), and an endgame where the flag is raised fully and both robots hang/hang on each other and then the pole.

This would leave the other alliance with a scoring potential max of 175.

Let me know if we went somewhere wrong in the math.

Thanks!

We got the same number of 705 for max offense scoring.

Penalties are handled different this year. Penalties are added to the opposing Alliance's score. In theory this means the max score is unlimited.

Ranking points shouldn't be affected by penalties.

3.6.7
The number of ranking points assigned for each match is that of the losing alliance’s score. Both Alliances receive the pre-penalized score of the losing alliance as their RP.

[CougarRobot]

Penalties are handled different this year. Penalties are added to the opposing Alliance's score. In theory this means the max score is unlimited.

Ranking points shouldn't be affected by penalties.

I know it's not an official part of the competition but there is always a healthy side competition to set record high scores. It's mildly disappointing to think that the high scores will likely be generated by a combination of good offense and major penalties.

[Mr. 1033]

Very true! We were not thinking about penalties. Glad to hear we are all on the same page as far as the max "scorable" score being 705.

On a different note, has anyone with the new AndyMark playing field played around with the dimensions for building the flagpoles? The building guide says some of the geometery may be different but does not specify as to what could change.

Ideas?

[Scott_4140]

On a different note, has anyone with the new AndyMark playing field played around with the dimensions for building the flagpoles? The building guide says some of the geometery may be different but does not specify as to what could change.

Ideas?

We have a VEX field and the only thing I needed to change was the small PVC pipe (P18) that holds the Flag assembly out from the corner. You may also need to adjust the length of (P9) to get the critical dimension of 11.5" on page 63 to come out right.

[Scott_4140]

I know it's not an official part of the competition but there is always a healthy side competition to set record high scores. It's mildly disappointing to think that the high scores will likely be generated by a combination of good offense and major penalties.

If my assumption is correct on scoring your Autonomous Block in the Opposing Alliance's Pendulum Goal isn't actually a penalty, but merely a "gift" to the Opposing Alliance, then that would add 80 points to the max score potential. Bringing our new "mostly" offensive total up to 785 point.

It's even more far fetched than getting 50 blocks in one of the outside Pendulum Goals, but we're dealing with theoretical possibilities. :D

[Eisa]

Very true! We were not thinking about penalties. Glad to hear we are all on the same page as far as the max "scorable" score being 705.

The max score implies 3 things:

The opposing alliance does not acquire any penalties
The opposing alliance drops any pre-loaded blocks/does not pre-load any blocks into their robot.
The IR beacons are placed under one of the outside goals. (If not, the max score would be 702 points)

[Nuttyman54]

Anyone else play around with a "max score calculation"?

If my team's assumptions are correct we calculated it to be 705.

This of course is all 100 blocks scored in outer goals, max score in autonomous (both scored in IR outer goal and both fully on bridge), and an endgame where the flag is raised fully and both robots hang/hang on each other and then the pole.

This would leave the other alliance with a scoring potential max of 175.

Let me know if we went somewhere wrong in the math.

Thanks!

For what it's worth, you can only physically fit 27 blocks in each bin if you stack them perfectly (3x3x3 cube). In practice, I found that around 19-20 can be dropped in before they start falling out. Now..the way they define "Inside" is within the vertical projection of the object, so you could theoretically continue stacking blocks on top and if they don't fall off or extend beyond the projection of the walls of the pendulum bins they still count.

In practice, I would say that if you're careful you could realistically get 25 per bin. So the maximum feasible score would be:

Auto:
80 block + 40 bridge = 120

Teleop:
(25*3+25*2)*2 Block +50% balance bonus = 375
35 Flag Score
100 Hanging Score

Total = 630

[Scott_4140]

For what it's worth, you can only physically fit 27 blocks in each bin if you stack them perfectly (3x3x3 cube). In practice, I found that around 19-20 can be dropped in before they start falling out. Now..the way they define "Inside" is within the vertical projection of the object, so you could theoretically continue stacking blocks on top and if they don't fall off or extend beyond the projection of the walls of the pendulum bins they still count.

In practice, I would say that if you're careful you could realistically get 25 per bin.

Interesting. I only did two quick tests.

Stacking blocks I too got 3x3x3 for 27 blocks.

On the second test, I gently tossed blocks in from the side. 8 settled in nice and flat on the bottom. Then the next 2 sat on an angle between two of the base rows of blocks and supported by the first 8. I continued to toss blocks one at a time and it settled out with a pattern that allowed me to toss 35 blocks with 33 locking into the bin. After that they would slide off the stack.

Your mileage may vary! It all depends on how the first blocks start stacking on the bottom tier of blocks.

[DanielH]

I really like this challenge.

Because of the variety of ways in which a robot can score points this year (the bar, the flag, blocks, and autonomous) I feel that a number of strategies will emerge.

For example, a team could play defense the entire match, and then score both the flag and on the bar.

Or, a team could entirely focus on scoring blocks for the entire match.

Or, a team could make a 60 point autonomous (by scoring your cube in the beacon basket and parking on the ramp) and then play defense.

This is opposed to last year, where hanging as many rings as possible was the only viable strategy (lifting just didn't seem to be worthwhile enough last year).

[16skittles]

I really like this challenge.

Because of the variety of ways in which a robot can score points this year (the bar, the flag, blocks, and autonomous) I feel that a number of strategies will emerge.

For example, a team could play defense the entire match, and then score both the flag and on the bar.

Or, a team could entirely focus on scoring blocks for the entire match.

Or, a team could make a 60 point autonomous (by scoring your cube in the beacon basket and parking on the ramp) and then play defense.

This is opposed to last year, where hanging as many rings as possible was the only viable strategy (lifting just didn't seem to be worthwhile enough last year).
An autonomous of at least 50 points seems to be really simple, if you have the equipment. (I don't know what the toolkits of most teams look like, but last year our team did not have the IR sensor) I imagine a side-mounted dedicated module that holds one block, as well as the IR sensor. It would drive forward until it detects the IR, line up, and deposit the block. Then it could go forward, turn 90 degrees and go forward until it hits the center line, turn a little farther then follow the line up the bridge. My biggest concern is that robots would collide and mess up the autonomous for both bots on the alliance. But I hope to get a 50 point, but with contitions on the bridge who knows if it's going to be possible every time.

[ftcTeam6389]

If your team is considering some sort of "grappling hook" design to lift your bot, and you're thinking of launching it from your bot over the pullup bar, think again. The FTC officials put the kibosh on that idea on their forum here...

http://ftcforum.usfirst.org/showthread.php?1923-Robot-Parts-and-Materials-Answer-Thread&p=7285&viewfull=1#post7285

- FTC Team #6389

[donnaorozco]

I was wondering if corner braces were allowed as appropriate building material in this years FTC challenge. The manual states that fasteners and structural materials are allowed, but there is no specific rule for corner braces. If not would an individual have to make their own from raw materials or is there another alternative?

These are the braces we would like to use: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-1-2-in-Zinc-Plated-Corner-Braces-4-Pack-15304/202033892#.UlWJCtKsjTo

Many thanks!
Team 6169
The countdown to world domination has begun......