Android Tablets

[Dragonking]

I thinking about using android tablets for our scouting team this year and I was wondering what tablets I should get. And where is the cheapest place to get them? I want to keep the price under $140 per tablet. Any other suggestions would be appreciated as well.

[Andrew Lobos]

We are considering using this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=0EJ-0019-00005

I have one that I'm testing with, and it's pretty good for the price. I'm writing a custom app for entering the information. Here is the code for what I have so far if you're interested: https://github.com/FRCTeam225/MatchScouting

[saikiranra]

We are considering using this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=0EJ-0019-00005


Were you able to test this tablet out with an USB to Ethernet connector? If so, did it work well?

[Andrew Lobos]

Were you able to test this tablet out with an USB to Ethernet connector? If so, did it work well?

My plan for getting the data off the tablet was to use adb network forwarding to allow the tablet to connect to a web server running on a host computer (all the tablets would be connect to this computer in the stands).

I like your idea of using ethernet since it removes a lot of the complexity with spawning adb instances automatically for each tablet. I ordered one of these (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Android-Ethernet-Adapter-USB-to-RJ45-tablet-stick-USB-HUB-USB2-0-connector-/281166723344?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4176d7b910) adapters that I'm going to try with a USB OTG cable. I'll let you know how it works when I get it.

[cmrnpizzo14]

I'm not sure if this has the functionality you need but in terms of price I don't really think it can be beat.

http://thecollegetablet.com/the-tablet.html

I have one right now and I like it. It has some trouble with Wifi, but if you are using ethernet it should probably be fine.

[DonRotolo]

Be careful relying upon WiFi; this has generally been prohibited at competition in the past, and is likely to continue to be prohibited.

[Ed Law]

We use bluetooth to transfer data between tablets. Works very well.

[dcarr]

Don't end up with a junky Android tablet that will be unbearably slow and see limited manufacturer support and updates.

This Asus model is essentially a re-launch of the Nexus 7 from 2012, and it's gotten good reviews from AnandTech (http://www.anandtech.com/show/7160/asus-memo-pad-hd7-review) and others.

http://www.amazon.com/MeMOPad-HD-7-Inch-Blue-ME173X-A1-BL/dp/B00E0EY7Z6

You could also look for refurbished or open box Nexus 7's (2012 edition), they should hit that price point or lower.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Someone told me recently you can get one through Walmart for $69 using the internet shopping and have it shipped to a store.

[Michael Hill]

Someone told me recently you can get one through Walmart for $69 using the internet shopping and have it shipped to a store.

Not the Nexus 7 (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Nextbook-7-Tablet-with-8GB-Memory-with-Google-Mobile-Services/22127002)

[npetrie3]

The HP Slate could be a nice choice. Also the Nook would work as it has the Google Play Store and is cheap. The HP Slate, however, runs stock Android, which is nicer. I would suggest using Google Drive/Docs to share stuff. Overall, the Nexus 7 (older model is cheaper) would be the best Android tablet, but not in your price point.

[Michael Hill]

Something important to consider is to make sure you can charge them and run off Ethernet at the same time. They will not last a whole day in competition without being charged (we've tried). If not, you're stuck using 3G/4G (which gets very expensive)

[protoserge]

Try DealeXtreme at www.dx.com. They have a plethora of cheap tablets. Just expect 2 weeks for delivery from Hong Kong to the US. Newegg posted an ASUS tablet (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834231151&nm_mc=EMC-IGNEFL092613&cm_mmc=EMC-IGNEFL092613-_-EMC-092613-Index-_-TestTabletPC-_-34231151-L09A) today for $150 on sale.

[karomata]

Our team actually had our main sponsor, Harris Communications, donate prototype military grade tablets for our usage during the competition season. They were relatively simple to program (according to our programmers), and they ran off the andriod operating system. We could also connect them using ethernet cable and download all the information from the scouting tablets to a host tablet and also a coach tablet used by our drive team coach.

Additionally, because they were military grade, they were very durable. They were lightwieght, yet if a student dropped it on the cement floor, it would be fine.

I don't think these have hit the markets yet, since ours were prototypes and it will take a while even after its being used by the military, however we should definantly keep our eyes out for adriod tablets like those. They were great to use!

[jgustafson6156]

We use Bluetooth to transfer data between tablets. Works very well.

Bluetooth isn't allowed at competitions ether.

[AdamHeard]

Bluetooth isn't allowed at competitions ether.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Can you cite the rule?

I know they prohibit bluetooth on the robots and operator console, but in the arena I believe they only prohibit wifi networks.

[Michael Hill]

Bluetooth isn't allowed at competitions ether.

False. All past rules have specified wireless devices following the 802.11 standard to be disallowed, but Bluetooth and zigbee follow the 802.15 specification.

[donald_pinckney]

OP: For ideas for implementing your scouting system, you might want to checkout the post and whitepaper Team 1678 has on this thread:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118980

We used 8 Trio Stealth Pro 7' (http://www.amazon.com/TRIOSTEALTH7CM-GB-Tablet-Computer-WiFi/dp/B007ZT2YEO) tablets for our system and they worked kind-of ok. They functioned mostly as we expected, but you get what you pay for with Android tablets under $100. They did not support Bluetooth, which was a disappointment, but they DID support USB ethernet, which we used at the Sacramento regional. I would not recommend using USB ethernet though: it seemed somewhat unreliable and a real mess with cords. At this point in time, I would recommend increasing budget a bit to $150 per tablet, and purchasing ASUS MeMOPad HD 7s (http://www.amazon.com/MeMOPad-HD-7-Inch-Blue-ME173X-A1-BL/dp/B00E0EY7Z6/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1380391122&sr=1-1&keywords=asus+memo+pad+hd+7)
They are pretty much just marked down previous-gen Nexus 7s, and from what I can tell the gain in quality from cheap less than $100 to $150 makes a world of difference.

At least that was my / our teams experience, maybe it will be different for you.

Good luck!

[protoserge]

I might as well plug our Android app. It is available on Google Play here (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.growingstems.scouting). Check it out and see if it is a useful tool for you. We welcome any feedback!

We will be instituting a new app for next year's game. We will be releasing a video/series that describes the features of next year's app.

[hardcopi]

We stored all the data on the tablets then synced them off site. At St Louis we synced them using the bus' wifi. The other option that we are looking at this year is using an ad hoc wifi network on a laptop that will gather the data. We can just run them out to the parking lot turn on the wifi ad-hoc network and sync the data up. Not ideal, but it worked really well last year.

[Barry Bonzack]

I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Can you cite the rule?

I know they prohibit bluetooth on the robots and operator console, but in the arena I believe they only prohibit wifi networks.

False. All past rules have specified wireless devices following the 802.11 standard to be disallowed, but Bluetooth and zigbee follow the 802.15 specification.

I can cite this.

In St. Louis the FRC field next to the FTC fields had to shut down all wifi AND bluetooth devices because they were causing major problems with connection. At FTC competitions we require all forms of transmission from devices to be turned off, and request all phones be put in airplane mode. At the Florida FTC Championship, we had to delay the finals match because a handheld gaming system was causing interference.

The result, the field crew now has scanners, and volunteers are sent into the stands to locate where there interference is coming from, and request the device be turned off. If the interference comes from and the stands of FRC field, they must comply too.

[AdamHeard]

I can cite this.

In St. Louis the FRC field next to the FTC fields had to shut down all wifi AND bluetooth devices because they were causing major problems with connection. At FTC competitions we require all forms of transmission from devices to be turned off, and request all phones be put in airplane mode. At the Florida FTC Championship, we had to delay the finals match because a handheld gaming system was causing interference.

The result, the field crew now has scanners, and volunteers are sent into the stands to locate where there interference is coming from, and request the device be turned off. If the interference comes from and the stands of FRC field, they must comply too.

You didn't cite a rule, you cited an anecdote. It'd be great if someone could point out the related rule as I'm not seeing it.

[Barry Bonzack]

You didn't cite a rule, you cited an anecdote. It'd be great if someone could point out the related rule as I'm not seeing it.

There won't be a rule in the rulebook about what happens in the event you are interfering with a separate competition's robot connections.

I cited a true event that required bluetooth to be turned off at an FRC competition, and still needs to be taken into consideration if plans are being made to use a bluetooth scouting system.

[AdamHeard]

There won't be a rule in the rulebook about what happens in the event you are interfering with a separate competition's robot connections.

I cited a true event that required bluetooth to be turned off at an FRC competition, and still needs to be taken into consideration if plans are being made to use a bluetooth scouting system.

That's unfortunate. So teams going to champs need to read the FLL and FTC rulebook as well? That's a mess.

[Michael Hill]

Here's the specific rule.

T04
Teams are not allowed to set up their own 802.11a/b/g/n/ac (2.4GHz or 5GHz) wireless communication (e.g. access points or ad-hoc networks) in the venue.


A wireless hot spot created by a cellular device would be considered an access point.

It's rather specific to 802.11 wireless communications.

[Mike Schreiber]

Here's the specific rule.



It's rather specific to 802.11 wireless communications.

I can cite this.

In St. Louis the FRC field next to the FTC fields had to shut down all wifi AND bluetooth devices because they were causing major problems with connection. At FTC competitions we require all forms of transmission from devices to be turned off, and request all phones be put in airplane mode. At the Florida FTC Championship, we had to delay the finals match because a handheld gaming system was causing interference.

The result, the field crew now has scanners, and volunteers are sent into the stands to locate where there interference is coming from, and request the device be turned off. If the interference comes from and the stands of FRC field, they must comply too.

How else could they enforce compliance with people who aren't super involved, haven't read the rules, and are unknowingly violating them? I'm mainly referring to mobile hotspots, since I doubt anyone who isn't heavily involved would bring a router to an event.

[C_Morgan]

Just a quick update to the CD community. Thank you for all the feedback so far. After a cost benefit analysis Dragonking and FRC862 have narrowed it down to an IdeaTab A1000 (P/N: 59369837) which we picked up for $129.

@Donald - thanks again for the information. We are familiar with the FRC1678 approach to scouting from worlds which lead to asking ourselves how can we improve. Your white paper was also inspirational.

[solopilot]

Bluetooth isn't allowed at competitions ether.

Oh come on.... Pls provide some corroboration

[solopilot]

Someone told me recently you can get one through Walmart for $69 using the internet shopping and have it shipped to a store.

Perhaps it was me?
Walmart: XELIO 7" Tablet With 4GB Memory, currently $44
I bought this, installed Google Play (get com.android.vending-4.1.6.apk).
Works fine. The screen resolution is not great, but great deal for $44.
No Work: Vibrate, compass
Works: GPS, WiFi, Accelerometer, everything else...

[AdamHeard]

Perhaps it was me?
Walmart: XELIO 7" Tablet With 4GB Memory, currently $44
I bought this, installed Google Play (get com.android.vending-4.1.6.apk).
Works fine. The screen resolution is not great, but great deal for $44.
No Work: Vibrate, compass
Works: GPS, WiFi, Accelerometer, everything else...

How does it feel quality-wise?

[MooreteP]

I can cite this.

In St. Louis the FRC field next to the FTC fields had to shut down all wifi AND bluetooth devices because they were causing major problems with connection. At FTC competitions we require all forms of transmission from devices to be turned off, and request all phones be put in airplane mode. At the Florida FTC Championship, we had to delay the finals match because a handheld gaming system was causing interference.

The result, the field crew now has scanners, and volunteers are sent into the stands to locate where there interference is coming from, and request the device be turned off. If the interference comes from and the stands of FRC field, they must comply too.

I was one of the volunteers who circled the dome searching for the source of the interference. We were scanning for WiFi hotspots, not bluetooth.
There may have been a cautious reaction on the part of the field personnel to add Bluetooth to list of shutdown requests in the vicinity of the FTC fields.

That's unfortunate. So teams going to champs need to read the FLL and FTC rulebook as well? That's a mess.

This, and all the spectators and employees of the venues at all competitions.
IDTS

[solopilot]

How does it feel quality-wise?

It's not iPhone quality. But it is better than $44 quality.
The biggest complaint is the screen and that the touch-pad registration is slightly off. You need to touch a bit higher than you expect. I guess I got used to that. Battery life seems OK. I can download files to it via USB, though I can't use it for Android development (driver issue.)

Walmart has smaller Android devices for $35. I'll evaluate one shortly. We are considering buying a bunch of them for a judge & RI app. Pls check it out at
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.pejaver.gms

Login using demo : demo Comments welcome

[solopilot]

I was one of the volunteers who circled the dome searching for the source of the interference. We were scanning for WiFi hotspots, not bluetooth.
There may have been a cautious reaction on the part of the field personnel to add Bluetooth to list of shutdown requests in the vicinity of the FTC fields.

IDTS

There is a lot of BS going around about WiFi interference.
Though I have a vested interest in this, I think we need to stop the witch hunt and address the real technical issue.
The FRC robots currently use 5GHz 802.11N. (I think)
There should be no interference to them from 2.4GHz 802.11G or Bluetooth.
I don't know anything about FTC/FLL, but WiFi is not a threat to FRC.
And even if someone is transmitting 5GHz, the robots NEED to be resilient.
FIRST-FRC needs to pull the head out of the sand and find out the true cause of WiFi problems.

[solopilot]

I was one of the volunteers who circled the dome searching for the source of the interference. We were scanning for WiFi hotspots, not bluetooth.
There may have been a cautious reaction on the part of the field personnel to add Bluetooth to list of shutdown requests in the vicinity of the FTC fields.

IDTS

There is a lot of BS going around about WiFi interference.
Though I have a vested interest in this, I think we need to stop the witch hunt and address the real technical issue.
The FRC robots currently use 5GHz 802.11N. (I think)
There should be no interference to them from 2.4GHz 802.11G or Bluetooth.
I don't know anything about FTC/FLL, but WiFi is not a threat to FRC.
And even if someone is transmitting 5GHz, the robots NEED to be resilient.
FIRST-FRC needs to pull the head out of the sand and find out the true cause of WiFi problems.

[Citrus Dad]

Bluetooth isn't allowed at competitions ether.

Can you let me know where that is in the rules? We're planning on using Bluetooth too.

[Citrus Dad]

Team 1678 has posted a whitepaper on how we built a tablet based system using USB connections to a battery and a Raspberry Pi and readout to an iPhone. We're planning on an upgrade that we'll share later in the build season. We bought tablets that worked adequately for $80 each. You'll need 2 Raspberry Pis because of the limitation on USB ports.

[yash101]

Pretty Cool! How did this work out? By how you say there wouldn't be enough USB ports, did you have wires all over the place? That can get pretty annoying, especially on the last day when there is a large crowd and you are scrunched in

[Invictus3593]

Our team was looking at getting a few tablets for scouting and writing a program that gets the data from the tablets via bluetooth and puts it all into a spreadsheet; this program would run on a desktop in the pit and just sync when the tablets send the data.

I have not seen a rule that prohibits bluetooth in the pits, but please let me know if there is one.

What kind of tablet do you guys think would be adequate for >$100?

[coalhot]

To get back to the OP, my tablet is a HP touchpad, which I got during the firesale. I put cyanogen mod on it a few months after getting it, and have been using it with android ever since.

I know it's a somewhat dated piece of hardware, but it will run pretty much all current android apps; it's a nice size, has very good battery life (even after abusing my battery for two years), and you can pick one up on ebay in the range of $90-$150. (it's slightly on the heavy side though).

As for the wifi issue, don't use wifi. Share data via bluetooth away from the field (like food areas), or set up a cloud-based service that lets all the scouters upload data when they get home. You could use a setup like this by having someone with a phone that has a data plan turn on hotspot, connecting all the tablets, uploading data, updating all the tablets, and then disconnecting. <- *edit: this scenario also happens away from the field, out of wifi range*

Just my $0.02