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BBray_T1296
10-16-2013, 02:27 AM
Ever thought of some wacky, strange idea for tackling last (or any) year's game? Some weird robot design idea that is too stupid to build, but would be hilarious to see? Share it here. I will start:

For Ultimate Ascent I though of an defensive bot. I would call it Fan-Bot.
Here is the idea: Create a robot with a base as long and thin as allowable (48"x8" I think). Put a minimal drive-train on it (maybe 4 miniCIMs), and enough support to keep it from tipping over (deploy-able training wheels?). Powered by a every CIM you have (and maybe more) you have a huge fan with a diameter similar to the robot's length (roughly 46"). Gear it to achieve maximum rpm (pushing air requires a lot of torque), and shape it to get maximum fan-out. Direct the wind upwards via a polycarbonate wall into narrow, wide, high velocity stream that points straight up.

Park under the opponents goal, using the travel time and autonomous to "spool up" the fan.

Blow every disk shot over the 'bot upwards, sliding from left to right along the alliance wall to block a 2 point or 3 point goal. If the stream is fast enough, the updraft would easily reroute most robot's disks into the wall above the goal, due to the aerodynamic properties of a Frisbee.

Your turn!

Akash Rastogi
10-16-2013, 02:36 AM
Though not as powerful as you might like, check out 869's robot from 2013.

http://www.thebluealliance.com/match/2013mrcmp_qm86

NathanNFM
10-16-2013, 02:51 AM
From my former team: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111559
First comment actually guessed it pretty much exactily right.

Boe
10-16-2013, 07:34 AM
This year we had a crazy idea of doing a "Momentum Climb" We would just have a drivebase that was very fast and powerful with a hook on the top and bottom of the robot. Towards the end of the match we would drive strait at the pyramid hook and swing on then the lower hook would grab the second bar and swing us to the top hook.

Calvin Hartley
10-16-2013, 09:09 AM
See this thread. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113931) That is all I will say for now.

z_beeblebrox
10-16-2013, 07:05 PM
/troll
See this (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/36127) thread.
/endtroll

magnets
10-16-2013, 08:20 PM
The robot height rule applies only during the duration of the match, so right as the match ends, have a pneumatic cylinder pull a pin that releases a really tall arm that dumps four colored discs in the top of you pyramid goal.

Would this actually be legal? If it is, then you get 2/3 of a thirty point climb with almost no effort (compared to building a climber)

ErvinI
10-16-2013, 08:31 PM
The robot height rule applies only during the duration of the match, so right as the match ends, have a pneumatic cylinder pull a pin that releases a really tall arm that dumps four colored discs in the top of you pyramid goal.

Would this actually be legal? If it is, then you get 2/3 of a thirty point climb with almost no effort (compared to building a climber)
The robot gets disabled in between autonomous and teleop mode for a short time, releasing the pin early.

MichaelBick
10-16-2013, 08:34 PM
The robot gets disabled in between autonomous and teleop mode for a short time, releasing the pin early.

a 2 pin system would work then. 1 gets automatically pulled 10 seconds before the match ends by code(double solenoid so there is no default). The other one would be the single solenoid one that get's pulled right after the game ends

ErvinI
10-16-2013, 08:39 PM
a 2 pin system would work then. 1 gets automatically pulled 10 seconds before the match ends by code(double solenoid so there is no default). The other one would be the single solenoid one that get's pulled right after the game ends
That should work :o .

safiq10
10-16-2013, 08:40 PM
This year we had a crazy idea of doing a "Momentum Climb" We would just have a drivebase that was very fast and powerful with a hook on the top and bottom of the robot. Towards the end of the match we would drive strait at the pyramid hook and swing on then the lower hook would grab the second bar and swing us to the top hook.

I think this is what 148 did.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYgpg0k4uwI

EricH
10-16-2013, 08:45 PM
The robot height rule applies only during the duration of the match, so right as the match ends, have a pneumatic cylinder pull a pin that releases a really tall arm that dumps four colored discs in the top of you pyramid goal.

Would this actually be legal? If it is, then you get 2/3 of a thirty point climb with almost no effort (compared to building a climber)
There's a couple of reasons this wouldn't work, illegality being one.

First, the definition of scored requires the disc to be in the goal at the end of the match, which is elsewhere to be defined as when the clock hits 0 +5 seconds for stuff to stop moving.

Second, never does mean never. I'm going to argue that your "when the match ends" includes the +5 second stoppage time if I lose the match, and certainly violates the "never" in R03-C. I'll also call for a disable (G05) and an alliance DQ for a robot that was illegal (T06). And I'll request that T07 be invoked to keep you off the field until such device was taken off.


Now, if you wanted to do something similar, try modding your disc shooter so that it can also drain shots into the pyramid goals with a special speed or angle or both. I think someone actually did this. You could also try doing something that slams up to 83" and tries to push all the discs out in a nice arc on stopping, but I think that would be harder.

magnets
10-16-2013, 09:07 PM
There's a couple of reasons this wouldn't work, illegality being one.

First, the definition of scored requires the disc to be in the goal at the end of the match, which is elsewhere to be defined as when the clock hits 0 +5 seconds for stuff to stop moving.

Second, never does mean never. I'm going to argue that your "when the match ends" includes the +5 second stoppage time if I lose the match, and certainly violates the "never" in R03-C. I'll also call for a disable (G05) and an alliance DQ for a robot that was illegal (T06). And I'll request that T07 be invoked to keep you off the field until such device was taken off.


Now, if you wanted to do something similar, try modding your disc shooter so that it can also drain shots into the pyramid goals with a special speed or angle or both. I think someone actually did this. You could also try doing something that slams up to 83" and tries to push all the discs out in a nice arc on stopping, but I think that would be harder.

You're right, it's illegal, but a "match" doesn't include the 5 seconds at the end. The game manual says matches are 2 minutes and 15 seconds long. So, you wouldn't get a foul for being too tall, but your disc doesn't count.

It looks like climbing is the only thing that gets the extra five seconds, not discs.

EricH
10-17-2013, 12:41 AM
You're right, it's illegal, but a "match" doesn't include the 5 seconds at the end. The game manual says matches are 2 minutes and 15 seconds long. So, you wouldn't get a foul for being too tall, but your disc doesn't count.

It looks like climbing is the only thing that gets the extra five seconds, not discs.
Nope, discs would get the extra 5 seconds if they were in motion.

You're right about not getting a foul for being too tall. The penalty for violating a robot rule is a disable (for this situation, not an issue) and/or a red card (to the alliance!) depending on whether or not you didn't pass inspection and/or shouldn't have passed inspection. No point penalty--but a DQ hurts you worse than most point penalties.

Now, here's where I think we differ: The robot rules say "never" over 84". Not the match rules, the robot rules--which apply at inspection AND during a match (and if you're breaking them elsewhere, like right after the match, the inspectors will be looking for you to show that you cannot break them on the field--oops, too late). If you break the robot rules in a match, the least you can expect is a disable; if it's something that should have been illegal by inspection, and you're on the field, red card to the alliance.

If some folks wanted to get really persnickety, you triggered the action to go over 84" during the match (and THAT you can't argue--you released the pin before the timer hit zero) and thus attempted to go over 84" during the match, and thus attempted to violate the rule during the match--you just happened to complete it during the "come to rest" time. (Not to mention any accidental deploys.) It's a thin defense that you didn't actually complete it. (I think most refs would call you on it--and the head ref's ruling is final.)

Of course, now that you've mentioned it... anyone want to take a stab at how the GDC might manage rule something like this illegal next year, using either existing or new rules?

Anyways, I don't know about y'all, but I wouldn't take the risk of no points for myself and my alliance partners if the loophole doesn't actually exist. (Now, utilizing other systems on the robot to target the pyramid goal and drop a couple of shots up there without climbing, that's another story--because I don't come close to breaking any rules.)

MichaelBick
10-17-2013, 02:03 AM
Nope, discs would get the extra 5 seconds if they were in motion.


It's interesting because this is what I initially believed too:

"A DISC is considered SCORED in an ALLIANCE’S GOAL if any part of the DISC has crossed through the opening of the GOAL, is in the GOAL at the end of the MATCH, and is not in contact with any ROBOT from that ALLIANCE." -3.1.5.1

For a disk to be scored it HAS to be in the goal at the end of the match. This is interesting wording because it is extremely hard to judge this. In addition scoring was always confirmed based on disk in the goal even after the match ended. As far as I know the scoring system all season did not match the rule.

EricH
10-17-2013, 07:42 PM
It's interesting because this is what I initially believed too:

"A DISC is considered SCORED in an ALLIANCE’S GOAL if any part of the DISC has crossed through the opening of the GOAL, is in the GOAL at the end of the MATCH, and is not in contact with any ROBOT from that ALLIANCE." -3.1.5.1

For a disk to be scored it HAS to be in the goal at the end of the match. This is interesting wording because it is extremely hard to judge this.
Except...that happens to be a sub-rule of a larger rule, which clearly states that final scores will be assessed after all elements (discs and robots) have come to rest, or after 5 seconds after the match ends, whichever comes first.
3.1.5 Scoring
Points are awarded to ALLIANCES per the details below. Final scores will be assessed five (5) seconds after the ARENA timer displays zero (0) or when all elements come to rest, whichever event happens first.

(If the rules do something similar next year, anybody wanna ask Q&A what happens to last-second buzzer-beaters?)

However, given that you have to go up from 84" or less to a bit over 90" AND make it a fair bit to one side with the disc in the process, it's going to be extremely tough to do it accurately within 5 seconds even harder to do it without somebody crying foul, and even harder than that to do it more than once.

Caleb Sykes
10-17-2013, 08:41 PM
One of our ideas early in build season was a robot that had a giant net/basket attached to it. The robot would "catch" all of the frisbees thrown by human players with the net and rapidly dump them into the low goal.

Of course, then the rules changed on bag day. So it was probably good that we didn't go with this design...

In accordance with current rules, a climbing robot could still potentially do something like this. Dump in their 4 colored discs, and then catch the two other thrown discs and put them into the pyramid goal.

On another topic, Defensive juggle bot. The robot has 4 discs which it juggles in the air right in front of the opponent's goals. The juggled discs will hit the discs that the opponents are trying to shoot. It would be the ultimate defense.

Caleb Sykes
10-17-2013, 08:45 PM
Just remembered another one. A full court shooter re-director robot. This robot parks right in front of a full court shooter. When the FCS shoots, this robot redirects the disk with a curved track right into one of their own goals.

wilful
10-17-2013, 09:41 PM
Would it not be easier to set up a net and catch basket, which feeds into your own shooter?

Walter Deitzler
10-17-2013, 10:00 PM
We considered doing a 30 point climber that went up the side and flipped end over end. While I am aware an end-over-end flipper climber was built, the thing about this one is that it would be built to climb up, so that it would have a shooter level with the 3 pointer when at the level 30 climb. It would run back, grab disk, climb up, shoot them, climb DOWN, go get more disks, climb up, shoot them, climb down, then get 4 colored disks, up, dump, down, get 2 colored, 2 white, climb up, shoot, dump, hang.

Yeah, it was pretty harebrained.

Jacob Bendicksen
10-17-2013, 10:24 PM
Though not as powerful as you might like, check out 869's robot from 2013.

http://www.thebluealliance.com/match/2013mrcmp_qm86

That is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen.

Caleb Sykes
10-17-2013, 10:39 PM
Would it not be easier to set up a net and catch basket, which feeds into your own shooter?

Ideally, yes. The main problem would come from the speed at which you are catching the discs. Say that your alliance had 30 discs left to throw at the end of the match. I can envision a system for catching and redirecting 1 disc/second into the low goal without ever holding more than 4 discs. However, a catcher/re-director/shooter that works this fast would be vastly more difficult.

Given, your alliance wouldn't have to throw all the remaining discs at the robot. Thus making your approach much more applicable. Still though, you would need to catch/position/shoot at least 10 discs into the 3-point goal in 30 seconds to achieve parity.

BBray_T1296
10-18-2013, 04:57 PM
Wouldn't 869's robot (http://www.thebluealliance.com/match/2013mrcmp_qm86) violate this rule?

R80

Compressed air on the ROBOT must be provided by one and only one compressor. Compressor specifications may not exceed nominal 12VDC, 1.05 cfm flow rate. [...]

Specifically the 1.05 cfm part.

The air inside of the cone is under compression by the fan below, because the higher pressure (>1 atm) inside is what causes it to inflate and stay inflated.

By definition:

Compressor
1. an instrument or device for compressing something.
Device that puts air under compression = Compressor.

It is also clear that it has a flow rate of over 1.05cfm. The cone is >4' tall, and is nearly cylindrical with an approximate diameter of 1.5' giving it a volume of at least 7ft^3. It inflates <2 seconds making the flow rate >210cfm.

Since 210 cfm >> 1.05cfm, it should be illegal

Of course the pressure inside the cone is very low compared to in a Clippard, but it is still greater than 1 atm.