FrankAnswersFridays: October 25, 2013: Safety at Championships

[Steven Donow]

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-frank-answers-fridays-10252013

This week’s question is from Joe Barry, Team 987, The High Rollers, from Las Vegas, Nevada, USA:

Question:

Hi Frank,

Now that we have the Championships venue decided upon for several years to come it makes sense to continue to enhance the experience in St. Louis in ways that ensure a fun, rewarding, educational, and safe experience. As referenced in various Chief Delphi posts and a personal discussion with you this past season, it is obvious that much still needs to be done to make the early morning team entry into the dome a more orderly and safe experience. Has FIRST figured out at a safe, workable crowd control plan for the venue yet...like ensuring the same set of doors are clearly labeled and used for ingress, effective roping for a proper que of teams, wristbands, timed intervals for each team's entry, etc.? Of all the planning efforts associated with this awesome event, I am sure we all agree that none is more important than those that relate to the safety of all individuals participating in it.

Answer:

Thanks for the question, Joe.

You are correct that safety is our top priority. For the 2013 FIRST Championship, we added stanchions outside the entryway to help guide individuals safely through the doors of venue, and also had additional individuals assigned to crowd control, reminding everyone to slow down. In the wake of the Boston Marathon Bombing, which happened just a few days before the event, we also added bag checks and security dogs to the event, with the goal of increasing the safety and comfort of all attendees.

We are working now on the security and crowd control plan for the 2014 FIRST Championship. We don’t have details finalized yet, but we’ll pass along information important to teams when the time comes. You can expect, though, that there will be changes to how these elements are handled, and as always, we’ll be counting on the teams do their part to help keep the event safe.

I’ll blog again soon.

Frank

[Chris is me]

I can't tell from the response if he grasps the magnitude of the problem at hand here. Guiding people to the right place and having a few people try and ask people to slow down doesn't change the fundamental problem at hand: Thousands of people have a huge incentive to "get in first" in order to claim seating. This isn't something that can and should be fixed by "hey guys, don't run". A queue line for each division that lets people inside in an ordered fashion would do it. Probably takes the same number of extra people as other methods. You could gradually bring the lines in, let in 20 at a time every 30 seconds or so from each line, etc.

[Cory]

His response is flat out not true. As one of the first 50 or so people in line every day I am 100% sure there was no proper queue formed and that what he's calling "crowd control" was one rent-a-cop that yelled at people for standing on the brick area of the sidewalk while doing nothing to ensure that an orderly line was formed.

There was literally zero effort put into crowd control. Not only that, FIRST staff actually exacerbated the problem by standing at the front of the crowd and counting down to the doors opening, causing what amounted to a stampede.

[PayneTrain]

I came in the door a minute after it opened on Saturday and it was already madhouse getting in and over to the stands, only to see adults rolling out toilet paper in seats and yelling at each other and at children. Either I'm seeing things and need to see a doctor or they just don't see how intense the problem is...

[Wetzel]

I think the entrance to the pits was OK, but I was never over at the opening for seating.

[OZ_341]

Speaking of crowd control.
If they don't do something to fix that after-party, someone is going to get hurt.
You simply cannot fit the entire Championship inside the science center. It was a recipe for a future disaster.
They have now made (3) attempts at an after party with very limited success.
The first two were OK but not great, but 2013 was just flat out unsafe.
I sure hope they are brainstorming on the safety aspects of this issue, as well.

[Billfred]

Speaking of crowd control.
If they don't do something to fix that after-party, someone is going to get hurt.
You simply cannot fit the entire Championship inside the science center. It was a recipe for a future disaster.
They have now made (3) attempts at an after party with very limited success.
The first two were OK but not great, but 2013 was just flat out unsafe.
I sure hope they are brainstorming on the safety aspects of this issue, as well.
My understanding is that they were pinched last year by the weather, forcing everything into a smaller space than planned. Either way, you're right--I was keeping my elbows out at the science center to get a little cushion.

As for the initial seating stampede (and yes, some people really took it like that), I might suggest turnstiles at the door. Pain in the butt for those with things that roll, but for the teeming masses it forces them to go one at a time and not too fast.

[Justin Montois]

I agree with Chris and Cory, I'm not sure the message was received in terms of the severity of the issue and as Cory mentioned, what was in place could hardly be called crowd control.

I think that Joe brought up some good options that I was hoping Frank would respond to like wristbands or timed intervals.

There needs to be a better system in place. Outside the venue isn't as important to me because once a system is in place to improve the initial rush, the outside queuing of teams will take care of itself. Asking teams to 'slow down' is not a solution. A few more stanchions or barriers outside is also not going to solve the problem.

We know Frank is active on CD, can people post some ideas in this thread as possible solutions?

I was thinking if it made sense to give teams blocks of seats in a vertical manner instead of horizontal. Meaning instead of very few teams taking all of the "good seats" up front, teams are given 2 wide blocks so teams can give preference to their scouters up front and rotate the good seats among themselves.

For clarity? Imagine Team numbers 1-7

11223344556677
11223344556677
11223344556677
11223344556677
11223344556677
11223344556677
11223344556677


Instead of...

111111111111
333333333333
222222222222
444444444444
777777777777
666666666666
555555555555

Not sure if it's a good idea yet or not....

[Pat Fairbank]

I would settle for a single, clearly demarcated pair of doors to the dome that will be opening, and a queue enclosed by a rope barrier or something that's long enough for a few thousand people to queue up.

Most of the safety hazards are caused by later-arriving teams skipping straight to the front and pushing through, and the crunch into the escalator and staircase since they are a bottleneck after too many doors are opened.

[Billfred]

Most of the safety hazards are caused by later-arriving teams skipping straight to the front and pushing through, and the crunch into the escalator and staircase since they are a bottleneck after too many doors are opened.

What about using the big ramps to get people in in the mornings? We used them leaving the concert in 2011, and I could've sworn they went down to street level. The extra width would allow for a variety of paces and more throughput during the first hour or so. Just put barricades or staff (or both) at the highest level people can enter.

Still not foolproof, but I'll take people being idiots on a gently-sloped ramp over people being idiots on stairs and escalators.

[Kevin Leonard]

I think the biggest issue with finding seating in the morning isn't teams getting seating to watch the matches, it's scouts getting seating to watch the matches.
That being said, I would love to see a nice area of the stands devoted to scouting and scouting only.

The other thing that I think can be done on a team level is educating your own teams on being professional during the mad morning rush. Don't take more seats than you need, and don't put your 40 students all in prime seating- put your scouts up front, your spirit gang can be in back. This also allows them to stand up without blocking other team's views. It's a win-win scenario.

[Samwaldo]

The Boston Regional (which no longer exists. The venue will now become the NE District Championships site) Did as best of job as possible that did help. They only allowed people to go in through one of the doors in the morning, where their was security checks which enforced a line. Once in the lobby, they wouldnt allow anyone to go up the stairs till a certain time. Once that time hit, everyone had to go through turnstyles to get to the stairs.

[Michael Hill]

My biggest annoyance (as a volunteer) was the single entryway. The volunteer parking lot was on the complete opposite side of the arena. I don't know how many locked entrances I passed (with security personnel standing there watching me) and tried to enter with no success.

Yes. I'm whining.

:D

But seriously, having another entrance on the other side of the arena unlocked would be nice and would help alleviate some stampeding.

[Jacob Bendicksen]

What about a lottery system? Teams submit how many seats they need, then they are reserved. Period. No rush for anything since seats are predetermined.

[Robotmmm]

I completely agree with TheCascadeKid's idea. I was thinking along similar lines. When you register for Champs you need to submit a total number attending and then you are randomly assigned a block of seats (and I really like the vertical as opposed to horizontal idea). I also suggest that this rotates by day so that one team does not end up with "the good seats" for the entire event.

Also.......

We need to address the travesty of the mad seating rush for Einstein!!!

What happens every year is that so many people rush for seats on Einstein that there is hardly anyone left watching the Archimedes, Newton, etc. finals and awards. This is a travesty! If people had pre-assigned seating for Einstein then they would all stay and watch those finals instead of all trampeling each other to get to the "big show" seating.

[MrTechCenter]

Also, the supposed "extra bag check" never happened. At least not for me, I brought my backpack every day and used the main entrance into the corridor that connects the EJD with America's Center and I the first day they checked but after that they just let everybody in, even of they had bags. It may have been different for others, but that's how it was for me.

[George C]

What about a lottery system? Teams submit how many seats they need, then they are reserved. Period. No rush for anything since seats are predetermined.

Big difference between "need" and "want". I might have x people attending but maybe more so let's book x+10.

[Navid Shafa]

Also, the supposed "extra bag check" never happened. At least not for me, I brought my backpack every day and used the main entrance into the corridor that connects the EJD with America's Center and I the first day they checked but after that they just let everybody in, even of they had bags. It may have been different for others, but that's how it was for me.

I went through with my personal backpack not getting checked. Not to mention that I witnessed coolers, totes, and large boxes go by without getting checked as well.

The people responsible for door management and crowd control didn't seem to know what was going on, and were also often incapable of even providing information or directions to people coming in.

[Robotmmm]

I also like the idea of a designated "scouting team only" section. Each team would get 4(?) badges (like the drive team ones) and you can only be in that section if you have a badge.

Another thing that would be of great help is if FIRST could film all matches in a full field, stationary format. Then upload the matches immediately to their website. This would eliminate the need for teams to bring all their own equipment which is combersome and sometimes blocks views of those behind them.

[EricH]

I also like the idea of a designated "scouting team only" section. Each team would get 4(?) badges (like the drive team ones) and you can only be in that section if you have a badge.6 badges, minimum, per team. You don't have to use all of them...but to have only 4 scouts is going to be rough, and I speak from experience (scouting 4 robots with only 2 people doing it isn't fun--tells you how long I've been doing this). I'd prefer 7, 6 plus one sub/data person/messenger.

But, what's been brought up before when this is proposed is this: You're splitting the team. Teams generally don't like to be split, which is why saving seats comes up every year.

The other factor is that the scouting section(s) will need to be in the GOOD seats, and have power available for those that have electronics. Now you need extra crowd control to kick people without those buttons out of those seats, and some policing of the outlets or whatever other power supplies are available.

[treffk]

I was not at Championships this past year due to not being able to get off work so I am unsure of what it was like compared to 2012 when as a volunteer I was left with a sour taste in my mouth due to ungracious behaviors I witnessed and a lack of coordination for getting teams into their seats for Einstein. I am just playing the devils advocate here for the sake of another view, particularly the view someone planning would have to consider when designing the plan.

By adding a scouting section how would it be enforced that only those who are queued for matches(if there are 6 scouters allowed per team, that 36 potential scouters per match) are in the section? (I am using teams that are queued for matches as a limiting factor for the amount of space needed to be roped off for the scouting section, if anyone else has any other ways to limit it that would be great to hear. Without limits there would be a need to rope off 600 seats per division just for scoting) And how many additional volunteers would be needed to run and manage this new section on each field? If it gets queued like getting on the field that means at least 2 volunteers per section.

I know this point has been beat to death when it comes to events but every year the manual states seats are not to be saved. If they were to go to randomly assigned slots of seats, how would this be enforced? Would it be gracious professionalism similar to what is supposed to be in place to prevent the saving of seats? From a volunteer side of it how will the seating arrangements be determined for each day? Will it be announced the day prior or have the entire weekend planned as soon as divisions are out? How could those running the event handle possible issues between teams over the seats? Would there be a specific desk that you could go lodge a complaint and they would send a volunteer to investigate? How many more volunteers would this require to be effective?

[Michael Hill]

I was not at Championships this past year due to not being able to get off work so I am unsure of what it was like compared to 2011 when as a volunteer I was left with a sour taste in my mouth due to ungracious behaviors I witnessed and a lack of coordination for getting teams into their seats for Einstein. I am just playing the devils advocate here for the sake of another view, particularly the view someone planning would have to consider when designing the plan.

By adding a scouting section how would it be enforced that only those who are queued for matches(if there are 6 scouters allowed per team, that 36 potential scouters per match) are in the section? And how many additional volunteers would be needed to run and manage this new section on each field? If it gets queued like getting on the field that means at least 2 volunteers per section.

I know this point has been beat to death when it comes to events but every year the manual states seats are not to be saved. If they were to go to randomly assigned slots of seats, how would this be enforced? Would it be gracious professionalism similar to what is supposed to be in place to prevent the saving of seats? From a volunteer side of it how will the seating arrangements be determined for each day? Will it be announced the day prior or have the entire weekend planned as soon as divisions are out? How could those running the event handle possible issues between teams over the seats? Would there be a specific desk that you could go lodge a complaint and they would send a volunteer to investigate? How many more volunteers would this require to be effective?

Why would only teams queued for matches be allowed to scout?

[treffk]

Why would only teams queued for matches be allowed to scout?

I honestly don't know what I was thinking when I said that. I am assuming I was using that as a way to limit who was in the scouts only area. If it's not limited and there is space for all teams to send their 6 scouts this would require quite a large area to be blocked off. 6 scouts per team and 100 teams per division would require 600 seats per division be roped off. If 600 seats is not feasible for be roped off in each section how could teams rotate in and out of the area? In my eyes roping off a section for about 108(6 students x 3 teams per alliance x 2 alliances=108 scouters) would be more feasible and easier to manage.

[Chris is me]

I'm not against making plans for designated scouting sections, provided there's a way to come up with a simple, effective, accommodating solution that doesn't take a huge amount of effort. I don't think the addition of a scouting section will fix the stampede problem, though. Teams want to sit together, there is limited seating, and not all of it is very good. Therefore, people are going to rush to try and "grab" blocks of seats for their team to sit in clusters.

This isn't an easy problem to solve at all, but it's not something that can go unaddressed either. Anything that involves adding staff, seating designations, etc. is going to be a hard sell as it's a lot of extra work and additional resources for a problem that exists for about 15-20 minutes a day.

I like the idea of four lines and letting in a set number of people / teams in at a time in waves. requires more people just for 20 minutes and just at the door. Letting people into the dome in waves means the quest for seating will be civil and fair without having to reserve sections for teams or something weird like that. The main challenge i see is how one handles a situation where one team member shows up at 4 AM to hold a spot in line and the rest of the team shows up at 7...

[BrendanB]

They really should start looking into using more areas to let teams in! You have swarms of pit crew members rushing in to either start working on their robots or head to practice combined with swarms of team members heading to the stands to save seats.

It would be great if FIRST used rope on the sidewalks in front of several entrances around the dome to create lines with entrances labelled (2+ for dome and 1+ for the pits). Creating an orderly line of entrants along with volunteers/security at the doors to slow down the flow of bodies going through doors can help.

I am not a fan of a designated scouting section. If divisions have 100+ teams in them and your scouting system requires 6-8 individuals to scout, not to mention room for equipment you will need a minimum of 600-800 seats sectioned off although one could argue most of the stands are just scouts. Now most teams don't scout and some don't need that much room, but with the district model increasing the competitiveness of regions the competitiveness of the divisions will increase as will scouting.

I am open to the idea of assigned seating but unless a group steps forward to handle the logistics of handing out enough assigned seats but not too many FIRST most likely does not have the man power to start assigning daily seats. Also if every team asks for 3-5 too many seats (x 400 teams= 1200-2000 extra seats) then we really won't have enough room for teams to watch Einstein.

As Chris said, anything that involves significant additional manpower is a hard sell to FIRST who is a small volunteer organization running a massive program!

With that being said FIRST really needs to step back and examine where they want to go and how to get there keeping safety in mind. If we want to be the superbowl of smarts and grow the championship to that level its going to to take a lot of work. The superbowl draws a massive volunteer base from its host city, security is very high not only to ensure safety from threats but also safety in masses, etc. I really hope FIRST takes this seriously as I have felt very unsafe during moments of mass movement at the FIRST championship in 2011 and 2013. The mass exodus during doors open and the end of the day or the finale is flat out going to seriously hurt someone one day or another!

[brennanvhoek]

I like the idea of four lines and waves as well.


The main challenge i see is how one handles a situation where one team member shows up at 4 AM to hold a spot in line and the rest of the team shows up at 7...

One way to solve this problem is to hand out one ticket per person as people arrive. You wouldn't need to start handing out tickets until 5 AM as the cutting doesn't happen 'til later. Then let people in by the order of tickets. This would also slow people down as they go through the door, as their ticket would have to be checked. Plus it would make it easy to do waves, "tickets 2014-0000 thru 2014-0100." Granted it would take some man power in the mornings but it would be fairly cheap, a roll of tickets is only $20 or so.

Another option would be to do something like the Portland Timbers do. They have a lottery system that gives a certain percentage of people special tickets. With those tickets they are let in an hour before everyone else. This takes a lot of the rush for good seats away as the best seats are already taken.

[Seth Mallory]

I would like to see the lower section divide into 3 sections using the isles as deviders. Each section would be assign to different match's in a rotation. You would have the match before to get into the seats and the match after yours to get out of the seats so the next assigned match's teams could get into watch. This would allow smaller teams that do not have the people that spend the day keeping other people from watching there own match's to see their match's from good seats. You could come watch your match and then go to the tech exhibits or other things the event offers. It would also cut the need for some of the stampede.

[Pat Fairbank]

I think the fairest system, and the one requiring the least amount of work to implement, is the one that many teams (including my own) try to follow now -- you show up early in the morning with as many people as seats you want to claim, and stand in line.

Where this fails right now is that there is often not a clear indication of where the line starts (i.e. which door(s) will be opening) and no effort to enforce that teams respect the line (other than teams' GP, which sadly often goes missing at this point in the competition). This is easily and inexpensively solved with signage and crowd control barriers.

Edit: Having one such line for each division, at its own set of doors at the four corners of the dome, would also go a long way towards decreasing the safety hazard of people pushing or running in different directions after they get in.

[DonRotolo]

What about a lottery system? Teams submit how many seats they need, then they are reserved. Period. No rush for anything since seats are predetermined.I'd prefer 7, 6 plus one sub/data person/messenger.Frank,
Thanks for watching CD as an information source. Those of us out here really do appreciate that, more than we've already said.

On the point of seating, mad rushes, saving seats and safety: I strongly suggest you consider reserved seating and a lottery system for scouts for each division. The seats all have numbers, let's use that. I agree with Eric's suggestion of 7 tickets per team (we use 7 scouts for every match).

Each team will get 7 assigned seats in the 'scouting' section, which are the lower concourse sections that have good visibility of the entire field. Which exact seats a team gets is random, but your team is in a group, and these are the same seats for all of CMP. The rest of the team sits elsewhere.

Teams that don't use 7 scouts can use their 7 seats for whatever they wish, except that no items that can block one's view are allowed (large signs, etc.), and standing during a match is prohibited - after all, we're scouting here....

Some basic research: Foe example, sections 105, 107 and 109 of the Jones Dome are in a corner with good visibility of a division field. Each has about 21 rows, and if each row has an average of 14 seats, it means these sections can accommodate 123 teams - more than enough. If there are more seats per row (and I think there are) then either teams get more assigned seats (8 or 9 or 10, whatever) OR the last few rows are not assigned.

Power is a perennial issue, 1676 brings its own power as needed. If no AC outlets are available, we use battery and an AC inverter to run the wired router, server and printer used by the scouting team.

As for the rest of the mad dash, real crowd control through carefully defined entry bottlenecks would be fine.

[AdamHeard]

I think the fairest system, and the one requiring the least amount of work to implement, is the one that many teams (including my own) try to follow now -- you show up early in the morning with as many people as seats you want to claim, and stand in line.

Where this fails right now is that there is often not a clear indication of where the line starts (i.e. which door(s) will be opening) and no effort to enforce that teams respect the line (other than teams' GP, which sadly often goes missing at this point in the competition). This is easily and inexpensively solved with signage and crowd control barriers.

Edit: Having one such line for each division, at its own set of doors at the four corners of the dome, would also go a long way towards decreasing the safety hazard of people pushing or running in different directions after they get in.

Also giving the pit an obviously separate issue would be nice.

[Jim Giacchi]

I agree with everyone who mentioned crowd control barriers. If you have a line that zig zags and is cordoned off, it will preventi people from pushing through the doors because they will be funneled into the line. No one will be able to cut in either because barriers would prevent it. It would go a long way towards relieving a lot of the problem. I also cannot stress enough the fact that people just don't listen. I was verbally abused two years ago by a woman when my team and I "stole" empty seats. She accused me of not understanding the spirit of FIRST despite clearly not ever reading the rules herself. You can't prevent stupidity nor ignorance, but what I would suggest is that you can prevent teams that are clearly saving seats, by having volunteers explain the rules to them when they see a team using signs and tape to block sections off.
Also more doors should be open. We are filling the lower portion of the stadium to capacity. They size the arena and the doors to handle it, but when you close doors, you are not using the building as designed and are most definitely asking for a problem. Even if you only open the doors during the first hour, it would go a long way to making the event safer.

[treffk]

One way to solve this problem is to hand out one ticket per person as people arrive. You wouldn't need to start handing out tickets until 5 AM as the cutting doesn't happen 'til later. Then let people in by the order of tickets. This would also slow people down as they go through the door, as their ticket would have to be checked. Plus it would make it easy to do waves, "tickets 2014-0000 thru 2014-0100." Granted it would take some man power in the mornings but it would be fairly cheap, a roll of tickets is only $20

Most volunteers and FIRST staff do not arrive at the dome until about 7am. My mom would arrive early each day to get some things done early and usually would get there before anyone else and sometimes before the doors were even unlocked for volunteers.

[Libby K]

The Boston Regional (which no longer exists. The venue will now become the NE District Championships site) Did as best of job as possible that did help. They only allowed people to go in through one of the doors in the morning, where their was security checks which enforced a line. Once in the lobby, they wouldnt allow anyone to go up the stairs till a certain time. Once that time hit, everyone had to go through turnstyles to get to the stairs.

As one of the Boston RPC members that was -always- on door duty, thanks for the compliment. Didn't always go as planned, but we tried very hard to make an orderly system. This included REPEATED reminders via megaphone to the lobby-crowd that running/pushing etc would not be tolerated. (This was doubly important, as a flight of stairs separated the lobby from the mezzanine area and we didn't want people to trip or get hurt/trampled by running kids.)

Here's how we did it:
Venue staff at the doors, checking bags. Venue staff at each turnstile- these were located at the bottom of the stairs. Crowd control volunteers at the middle landing of the stairs, and at the top of the stairs. (Since the field wouldn't be running matches for some time, Queueing and Field Reset volunteers worked well for this purpose. It wasn't just a 'Hey you, slow down!" - these people were standing in a row - human turnstiles, if you will. A visual reminder that pushing and running just wasn't going to happen.

For the Championship, however, this wouldn't work. Some teams in the past have CLEARLY demonstrated that they don't value human beings that aren't on their team, and I've heard horror stories of pushing, hitting, running, yelling, fighting -- you name it. It's disgusting - that's not the FIRST community I know. I get that the Championship seating is competitive, but there's no reason for such a lack of respect for others.

I really like the idea of lines outside for each division. Perhaps those lines are near a door that's close to the corner of the arena where your division is located? The issue of pushing and shoving to get in the door would be solved with lines, BUT as soon as they got to the hallway, we'd have the same problem - running, pushing -- all the bad stuff. If they were close enough to their division, maybe volunteers or arena staff could be assigned to those areas to ensure safety.

I'm thinking back to the Black Eyed Peas Concert, and how well I remember that seating process being handled. (I can't for the life of me recall if it was the same for teams, but I was in the middle section of the arena surrounded by teams, so I'm assuming it was similar. If not, PLEASE correct me.) There was an insane level of volunteer presence, as well as venue/event/FIRST staff, just to make sure everyone got to their section safely. Why not bring that level out again in the mornings? I know that it's a lot to ask, but it's better than having kids getting injured over seats.

And for the love of robots, don't count down to doors-open. Learned that the hard way in Boston one year. It's all bad. Kids get riled, and the 'oh right, they told me not to run' memory gets erased by 'OMG OMG LET'S GO.'

Most volunteers and FIRST staff do not arrive at the dome until about 7am. My mom would arrive early each day to get some things done early and usually would get there before anyone else and sometimes before the doors were even unlocked for volunteers.

Teams get there at 5. Which means at least some level of staff presence needs to be there at 5. Arena staff is there (from what I understand, I'm not on a team that lines up that early), and with clear instructions should be able to handle a division-line-up system. Maybe volunteers who are early-birds could help handle it, and then get a pass to go back to their hotel for a nap in the afternoon? I know I'd need it. :)

[Karthik]

I think the fairest system, and the one requiring the least amount of work to implement, is the one that many teams (including my own) try to follow now -- you show up early in the morning with as many people as seats you want to claim, and stand in line.

Where this fails right now is that there is often not a clear indication of where the line starts (i.e. which door(s) will be opening) and no effort to enforce that teams respect the line (other than teams' GP, which sadly often goes missing at this point in the competition). This is easily and inexpensively solved with signage and crowd control barriers.

Edit: Having one such line for each division, at its own set of doors at the four corners of the dome, would also go a long way towards decreasing the safety hazard of people pushing or running in different directions after they get in.

I'm 100% in agreement with Pat here. If lineups were clearly marked and enforced each morning, there would be absolutely no issues. There's no need to implement a complicated solution for what is a relatively simple problem to solve.

[Bald & Bearded]

Lots of good discussion and constructive idea being presented here.

As someone who walked it many times the last two years there really does need
to be an entrance on the other side for the pits. We often try to do a picnic lunch and it really slows things down that everyone basically has to walk from one side and around the dome to the other side.

Different entrances for each division would also make things more orderly.

I am not sure if designated scouter seats will work but I think it is an idea worth trying. As we all know, the first attempt will not likely be right but it would be a place to start.

In the end, GP is the big requirement. Sometimes I believe it is not deliberate non-GP behavior but the lack of a framework that encourages GP. The current mass rush just does not work. Take ideas from concert venues and amusement parks they have been solving this problem for years.

Two stages, in the door and bag/box checks, followed by well defined queuing areas. Multiple entrances for different sections.

The idea of tickets for team seating has problems unless we tie it to some other purchased element. Maybe base it on hotel rooms purchased (4 tickets for each hotel room purchased) since Steel Meetings is given a monopoly on the hotel rooms.

[Chris is me]

I like Pat and Karthik's thoughts on this matter; a simple and easy to implement solution to the problem. Not everything would be perfect (teams would still run once past the doors unless the "line" continued inside) but it would be far better than what's going on now.

I do wish to add that as much as teams should be GP, as much as we want to instill those values, teams are going to run in the mornings if they have a good reason to. We can't go "teams need to be more GP" and then do nothing about the problem. It doesn't remove the incentive to sprint, push, and shove.

Similarly, more volunteers telling students not to run isn't going to make them stop running. The benefits of running ahead (good seats for the day) are far higher than the costs (someone might ask you to stop running). I'd never endorse the behavior of these students, but I understand why it happens. Tired, stressed students whom have been awake for 3 hours are being rushed / cut by people that showed up 20 minutes prior to doors. These students felt they worked hard for the right to sit first and hate to see it taken from them by other people running ahead, so they have in their mind no choice but to do the same.

Hence why an ideal solution to get people to stop running is to ensure an orderly line that can proceed in that order all the way to the entrance to the stands. Anything short of that creates an opportunity for students to run / push / shove / cut.

[PayneTrain]

Adding on to all of this, you would have to, in advance of the competition, mark on a map a specific set of doors that open early and have these 4 separate lines that we talked about. Second, you need to have a few people there early in the morning (floaters, maybe even queuers?) to control the entry. I think you open these special doors for field access only 10 minutes before each other door, and have each division go at one time and escorted to the entrance of that division. The free for all is bound to happen eventually, but trying to mitigate the initial rush would go a long way in establishing a precedent of fair and sensible seating.

Also since a lot of people who are serial seat savers (ie non-mentoring parents) are not likely to ever read the admin manual, could FIRST put a couple more coins into signage that quotes the rule around each seating area? I know FIRST likes to dump a lot of cash on signage for the whole event, what's a few more banners around each division to maybe cut down on the issue just bit more?

[AdamHeard]

Lotteries, etc... are silly and resource intensive.

We just need a better system to handle the first come first serve. Also, reducing the "sprint distance" would help.

In 2011, the line for pit was allowed to go inside, and right up to the pit doors. Thus, when the doors were opened there was no incentive to sprint... you were already there. 2012 and 2013 had a dangerous 500' sprint.

I'd be nice (but I'm less familiar with the dome layout) to do the same thing for the 4 divisions. Form a line right at the entrance to the seats themselves, so that minimal sprinting could even happen. This also makes what is currently one massive line, 5 smaller lines.

[MechEng83]

I was verbally abused two years ago by a woman when my team and I "stole" empty seats. She accused me of not understanding the spirit of FIRST despite clearly not ever reading the rules herself. You can't prevent stupidity nor ignorance, but what I would suggest is that you can prevent teams that are clearly saving seats, by having volunteers explain the rules to them when they see a team using signs and tape to block sections off.

Jim,
I wonder if you had a run-in with the same woman who did that to me and 2 of my students when we found some empty seats right before opening ceremonies in 2011. Another mentor from her team did come stop her because she was making a scene yelling at the several groups who sat in the seats, and her entire team ended up using about 2/5 of the "saved" seats.

---------------------

More doors, please. Separate pit entrance, please. More humorous rhymes from the safety glasses attendant, please.

[Justin Montois]

Lotteries, etc... are silly and resource intensive.

We just need a better system to handle the first come first serve. Also, reducing the "sprint distance" would help.

In 2011, the line for pit was allowed to go inside, and right up to the pit doors. Thus, when the doors were opened there was no incentive to sprint... you were already there. 2012 and 2013 had a dangerous 500' sprint.

I'd be nice (but I'm less familiar with the dome layout) to do the same thing for the 4 divisions. Form a line right at the entrance to the seats themselves, so that minimal sprinting could even happen. This also makes what is currently one massive line, 5 smaller lines.

I agree with most of this. However it doesn't address the problem of a team sending a 1 or 2 people to save 30 seats or more.

While a lottery may be "resource intensive" it solves both issues. There's no running, and everyone has a set amount of seats.

Also, to prevent teams from saying they have 50 people just to "be safe" it may be a good idea to have a system in place that the bigger the team is, the less likely they get seats up front.

I'm all for simple solutions but at the same time I don't want to half solve the problem.

[Ryan Dognaux]

I agree with most of this. However it doesn't address the problem of a team sending a 1 or 2 people to save 30 seats or more.

Am I the only one who just explains that you can't save those seats and continues to sit in them? Not trying to be a jerk but if your 30+ member team is represented by 2 team members and some jackets, then I'm going to still take the seat.

[Alan Anderson]

Am I the only one who just explains that you can't save those seats and continues to sit in them?

There are more than a few of us who will happily claim an unoccupied seat. If challenged, I'll just as happily offer to vacate it upon the return of the team member it's being "saved" for.

I even followed through on that offer the one time a team member did need the seat before I left. :-)

[aryker]

I think one of the major issues with seating was how little seating in the facility was made available for people--the Championship is held in a huge stadium, and yet what the staff seemed most concerned about was the fact that everyone stayed on the first level of seating. It seemed like 60 percent of the seats in the facility were unused! Maybe the crowd would thin out a bit if teams were allowed to make use of all the available seating, rather than just a small portion!

[Kevin Leonard]

I think FIRST should take a look at how well the scouting section at the GTR Regional (I can't remember which one) that is being held at 610's school. If the whole "Scouting Section" business runs efficiently there, I see no reason why they shouldn't attempt something like it at championships. Especially if they could find a space to set up a full-field view.
This would alleviate the problem in the stands immensely by moving scouts who need priority seating out of the stands and into a scouting section.
I think they find four relatively large areas in the convention center to run these sections. Preferably a relatively quiet area. This might also encourage collaboration between teams that are scouting.


Another thought: What if they used the high-up seating that is unused above a section to facilitate the scouting section? Would it be difficult to set up a projector there? It also has the benefit of being close to the actual seating and field.

The reason I'm so concerned about this is that our scouting operation is intense. We run six scouts, a head scout, a paper filer, and a data entry person. We also collaborate with other teams for our scouting. And anyone who knows FRC knows that scouting wins matches, and good scouting wins regionals.
So whatever solution is presented, I want to make sure that scouting is considered as a high priority item.
I have no doubt that most of you understand this, but it's something that could easily get thrown under the bridge in the name of organization.

[Cory]

Another thought: What if they used the high-up seating that is unused above a section to facilitate the scouting section? Would it be difficult to set up a projector there? It also has the benefit of being close to the actual seating and field.

Given the option I don't think there's a single team that would rather watch the match on a screen rather than live when it comes to scouting.

[BrendanB]

Given the option I don't think there's a single team that would rather watch the match on a screen rather than live when it comes to scouting.

Agreed. As someone who takes scouting very seriously I have never seen a video stream or angle that would come close to being a supplement for scouting. I remember scouting at Champs in 2009-2010 in some of the very back rows and still be able to do so successfully with identifying bumper numbers and where people were on the field.

There is a small level of scouting you can do via a video feed but if you want to do it properly you need to physically be watching everything on and off the field. I am curious to see the 610 setup for their regional but I am still very, very skeptical.

[Ernst]

Given the option I don't think there's a single team that would rather watch the match on a screen rather than live when it comes to scouting.

I did data entry for my team's scouting group at MARC over the summer. I set up at a table in a hallway. It was quieter, cooler, and I could lay out everything I was looking at instead of balancing a laptop and several accordion folders on my lap in the bleachers. Given the choice of entering data in a hall like I did, in the stands, or in a room with tables and a stream of the match, I would pick the streaming.

I don't think that the whole scouting team would have liked the secluded room, given that a lot of the fun is getting to sit as a team.

[Kevin Leonard]

Given the option I don't think there's a single team that would rather watch the match on a screen rather than live when it comes to scouting.

Agreed. As someone who takes scouting very seriously I have never seen a video stream or angle that would come close to being a supplement for scouting. I remember scouting at Champs in 2009-2010 in some of the very back rows and still be able to do so successfully with identifying bumper numbers and where people were on the field.

There is a small level of scouting you can do via a video feed but if you want to do it properly you need to physically be watching everything on and off the field. I am curious to see the 610 setup for their regional but I am still very, very skeptical.

I understand that. And that's why I'm curious to see how well 610's setup will work.
However, given the choice of not having seats to scout or scouting via full-field-fisheye (henceforth known as F^3), which would you choose?

[Cory]

I understand that. And that's why I'm curious to see how well 610's setup will work.
However, given the choice of not having seats to scout or scouting via full-field-fisheye (henceforth known as F^3), which would you choose?

Neither. I would show up at 5 AM and get seats.

[Kevin Leonard]

Neither. I would show up at 5 AM and get seats.

Fair enough.

[JB987]

Neither. I would show up at 5 AM and get seats.

And we will still show up at 4:59 am:D

[Nate Laverdure]

I don't understand the basic foundations of this discussion. It's the Championship-- stop sitting and start walking around (http://www.industryweek.com/articles/going_to_the_gemba_25543.aspx).

[Mr. Lim]

Given the option I don't think there's a single team that would rather watch the match on a screen rather than live when it comes to scouting.

There are tables to setup servers and printers, power outlets run to every few block of seats, stadium seating in comfortable chairs, and guest Wi-Fi internet access.

The premise is to provide scouts with all the things we wish our own scouts had at the events we've completed at. Of course the video/audio feed has to be good enough at the end of the day, but it needs to be good enough to identify the robots, and what they're doing. Having watched the streams from MI champs, and the HD WatchFIRSTnow streams, they were good enough for this, when they stuck to a fixed, full field view. With those streams and fixed views, I'm pretty sure our scouts could've tracked all the info we had asked them to record on our match scoring sheets.

We're even going to share our own team's live scouting data on secondary a screen off to the side for teams to cross reference their own, and live rankings on a third screen, all right beside the large HD video feed, so you don't need to run to the pits just to see the rankings.

I don't think any other event has tried this before, but I know our scouts will be lining up to set up in the ScoutCentre at the GTRW.

[Gregor]

I don't understand the basic foundations of this discussion. It's the Championship-- stop sitting and start walking around (http://www.industryweek.com/articles/going_to_the_gemba_25543.aspx).

But who will save my seat when I get up to look at things?



I'll be competing at GTRW with the remote scouting room. I'll relay observations to CD.

[Tristan Lall]

I think the fairest system, and the one requiring the least amount of work to implement, is the one that many teams (including my own) try to follow now -- you show up early in the morning with as many people as seats you want to claim, and stand in line.
I'm 100% in agreement with Pat here. If lineups were clearly marked and enforced each morning, there would be absolutely no issues. There's no need to implement a complicated solution for what is a relatively simple problem to solve.
Lotteries, etc... are silly and resource intensive.
From the perspective of someone who only needs to line up early when I'm visiting with a team that has that objective, and even then, only when I'm not otherwise engaged as a volunteer, I'm not really in favour of making the line at the door into part of the competition.

Sure, it's one more way that a motivated team can gain a useful advantage through their disciplined efforts off the field—but it's also an arms race in which the fanatics and the scouts will be keeping each other company for the lonely hours before sunrise. And while I suppose it's their prerogative, it's a little undignified and kind of overlooks the bigger question: is the first-come-first-served allocation of seats so essential to the competition (as a whole, rather than on a per-team level) that it couldn't be replaced with a system that is fair through randomness? If the few teams currently lining up very early lose their advantage, but everyone gets more sleep and less stampeding happens, are the event and the experience improved or degraded overall? I don't have data to estimate the relative benefits, but the costs to the event of enforcing an orderly line seem greater than the costs of assigning scouts' seats in advance.1


Also, lotteries are easy when you have a known set of entrants and don't need to do it in real time. The week before the event, with great pomp and circumstance, the regional director selects a hat and draws team numbers from it. A set number of that team's representatives are assigned to predetermined seating blocks in the order drawn. A slight improvement/complication involves the teams ranking their preferences for blocks of seating beforehand; when drawn, they get the most preferable block not already taken.

1 Despite that, I have to admit, I'm sympathetic to the teams that are annoyed when their scouts are beaten to the front row seats, and then have to endure sitting behind people that stand up and cheer for their team instead of quietly observing the match. I'd wager that the loss of productivity of the scouts in the 2nd row is greater in magnitude than the benefit the 1st-row team gains by cheering—and in effect harms the competition compared to the situation in which the seats were switched.

[DampRobot]

Isn't the solution for this problem a bit obvious? If there was someone with a FIRST volunteer shirt to walk around and tell off the most egregious violators of the "no saving seats" rule, I'm sure a lot of the motivation for the stampede to the stands would be gone.

In terms of saving seats, I'm not talking about a kid for holding a seat for their friend who's in the bathroom, I'm talking about the one person defending a huge block of seats like the people just trying to get off their feet are zombies coming to attack them. Those are the people that are causing a problem, and breaking a rule by the letter and in spirit.

Most teams get up early and run to the stands because they know that if they don't: a, they won't get good seats to watch/scout/cheer, and b, they won't be able to get them later, because those seats will continue to be saved. If they knew that they could simply sit where there is room, rather than where other teams have not claimed, teams wouldn't be so motivated to get up at the crack of dawn or sprint to the stands. They would know that there would likely be plenty of fine seats left, and as they day went on, they could move up into better unoccupied seats.

Of course, a lottery system or multiple coordinated entrances would be good ideas, but they'd likely take a fair bit of organization and work to implement. I'm not sure that they get to the root cause either, that people are very motivated to get to the stands as fast as physically possible to save seats for their team.

[Siri]

Isn't the solution for this problem a bit obvious? If there was someone with a FIRST volunteer shirt to walk around and tell off the most egregious violators of the "no saving seats" rule, I'm sure a lot of the motivation for the stampede to the stands would be gone.It'd take a lot more volunteer-power than just one person to actually enforce this to the point of removing the motivation. Culture changes are hard, especially when the benefit of not changing is precieved as so high. I think it's the correct approach--the message is certainly correct, effective delivery may be a question. It's less organization intensive than a lottery, but it's not a trivial addition of volunteers, at least for the first few years until the culture changes.

Further, the entire seat-sprint-struggle is over just saving. I've seen it between groups who have their members, to the point of fights almost breaking out as one group tries to cut in front on another. There are better and worse seats, and the former can (and likely will, no matter what) be defined such that it's a scarce resource, so from an economic perspective the competition is built-in.

[MrTechCenter]

They really shouldn't have two divisions on the shorter side of the dome, that lead to a lot of clustering between Archimedes and Newton, Curie was perfectly fine, Galileo had a lot of spectators but at least everyone managed to find a seat.

[PayneTrain]

They really shouldn't have two divisions on the shorter side of the dome, that lead to a lot of clustering between Archimedes and Newton, Curie was perfectly fine, Galileo had a lot of spectators but at least everyone managed to find a seat.

One of the reasons Galileo had so many spectators is because it had a lot of teams who bring a lot of people to the event, but it worked out because it was placed on the side of the dome where you realistically can't properly place another division. Because of the breezeway that connects the convention center and arena being where it is, fitting two fields on the near side of the dome is probably worse than fitting them on the endzone of it. You could move the stage to the other end of Einstein to slide both division fields up, but you then run into a seating issue with a division and Einstein, and a cosmetic issue where you'll have a field teardown going on during Einstein, right next to Einstein, instead of behind it.

The only thing I could think of doing was work better to squeeze two divisions on the far side and far left corner of the dome, where you could still run into overlapping seating and have a division placed really awkwardly on the corner.

Basically, I don't know how they could make that better.

[thefro526]

The premise is to provide scouts with all the things we wish our own scouts had at the events we've completed at. Of course the video/audio feed has to be good enough at the end of the day, but it needs to be good enough to identify the robots, and what they're doing. Having watched the streams from MI champs, and the HD WatchFIRSTnow streams, they were good enough for this, when they stuck to a fixed, full field view. With those streams and fixed views, I'm pretty sure our scouts could've tracked all the info we had asked them to record on our match scoring sheets.



This is a fantastic idea. While I agree that there is no replacement for watching a match in person, especially at a reasonable viewing distance (and angle, which may be more important) I think that a high quality fixed feed is a appropriate substitute. It would be interesting to see this expand to all events, although more than likely it would require quite a bit of legwork to make it happen.

Just thinking out loud here, but I think it would be amazing if each of the divisions at the championship had the sort of video feed that's being planned for GTRW and it were webcast-ed along side (separate feed) the traditional webcast. At that point, it would open up a handful of different options for scouting, or at least provide a secondary reference for gathering data. I guess the most obvious problem here would be how teams on site would access the cast without some sort of public wifi or a 3G/4G/LTE connection, but even those can be worked around... I know I was able to stream eliminations matches of Waterloo over 4G/LTE while at another event this past season without issue. (There's also the potential of logging the full field stream throughout the day and splitting it for reference later - some teams already do this with personal cameras.)

It seems like some other great ideas are being thrown around in here as well - especially regarding crowd control. Splitting each division/level up into it's own entrance or series of entrances would do wonders for organizing the chaotic 'mad dash' to the stands in the morning - and would hopefully eliminate some of the need to have a group of kids up as early as is needed now especially on Friday, since we know the scouts are going to have a late enough night as is.

Also, last year, and possibly years before, there was a second entrance into the Dome/Center that was immediately across from Starbucks. Out of sheer dumb luck (or an appropriately timed breakfast craving) another mentor and I happened to walk through this door as it opened, and into the pits with a much, much calmer pace than if we'd gone through the main doors.

One last thing, as someone that carries a backpack more often than not during events, I can assure you that I was asked to open mine each time I walked into the Dome/Center complex. The bag check is a necessary process, especially considering the timing of last years CMP, but I think it might benefit everyone if during morning opening, anyone with a bag/box/tote/etc were to go through a separate door than those without. That might help to cut down a bit on the stop and go as people are getting through the doors initially. (Not to mention that it should benefit those who are bringing in carts and things of that nature on Thursday morning.)