Why can there be adult coaches on the drive team?

[adlasa]

I am the student coach for our drive team and have always wondered why adults are also allowed to fill the position.

In my opinion when an adult is on the drive team he or she is taking away from a student's opportunity to have a tremendously fun and rewarding experience.

Also, during strategy meetings with alliance members I see students routinely yield to the adult and not participate as actively in the conversation. The adult often seem to dominate the discussion because they are an authority figure.

What is the reasoning behind allowing adults to be coaches?

[pfreivald]

What is the reasoning behind allowing adults to be coaches?

Because FIRST is about collaboration between students and adults.

We almost always have student drive coaches on our team, but have no issue with teams that have adult drive coaches.

My suggestion is to do what works for your team, whatever you're trying to get out of it, and don't worry so much about what other teams are doing.

[Justin Montois]

This topic has already been discussed at length....

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105371

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93881

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77390

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91144

[Lil' Lavery]

Here are some prior discussions on this topic.

From 2012: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105371
From 2011: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93881
From 2009: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77390
From 2008: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67426
From 2006: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45367

Probably many more that I'm missing.

I'm not saying this is a topic that's not worthy of bringing up again. Plenty of opinions change over time. But it's probably worth getting some of the wisdom of these past posts.


e; Beaten to it while searching, heh.

[MechEng83]

Relevant link from the FRC blog: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-rookie-registration-and-on-field-coaches

[nuggetsyl]

OMG this topic again. Those who stir the pot should lick the spoon.

[adlasa]

Here are some prior discussions on this topic.

From 2012: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105371
From 2011: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93881
From 2009: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77390
From 2008: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67426
From 2006: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45367


Thank you for the links of the previous discussion, I should have done a better job searching for those.

Their are clearly some merits to having adults on the drive team and also downsides, there will probably never be a right answer.

But, one interesting argument I saw was: If adults can be coaches why cant they also drive the robot? Can anyone expand on that question?

[LeelandS]

Okay, guys. I know the Chief Delphi reflex is to dog pile on the person who starts the thread. Here's the thing: Most of these threads turn in to heated wars about whether or not mentor coaches should be allowed. I think this is a genuine question as to why? Personally, I think a mentor or student coach fits fine into the scope of FIRST.

If it's a student; well, FIRST is about the students. Students taking control and driving their own future. So yes, a student coach fits perfectly for FIRST. The students drive, the students strategize, the students compete.

Conversely, a mentor coach is a good fit as well. Because, yes, FIRST is about the students driving their own future; though they are under the direction of professional, experienced mentors. A drive team with a mentor coach has the student driving, competing, being part of the action, while the mentor (who is absolutely forbidden from touching controls) is hanging back, supervising, providing insight and instruction.

As to why adults can't drive, well, I don't feel like that is a good fit in FIRST. As I've said and we should all know, FIRST is an organization centered around students. It doesn't seem right then for adults to take control of the teams creation if we're trying to develop and inspire students.

[wilsonmw04]

If adults can be coaches why cant they also drive the robot? Can anyone expand on that question?

Because that would blur an already hazy line of what is the student's role and what is the mentor's role. IMHO, the mentor should be there to guide the student and not do it for them. The way each team inspires is entirely up to them. The role of driver is the only limitation that FIRST gives to a team about who does what. I think it should stay that way to allow each team the flexibility they need.

If you want a student only activity, there are many STEM programs that do that. None as well as FIRST does in my estimation.

[Andrew Schreiber]

If it's a student; well, FIRST is about the students.

Nope. FIRST is about culture change. It's about changing perceptions that STEM isn't "hip". It's not about education or students exactly. It's about showing them that STEM is as cool as playing in the NFL.

[EricDrost]

If adults can be coaches why cant they also drive the robot?

Why can't adults play high school sports?

The drivers/human players are equivalent to athletes and the coach is there to give them guidance. Would you say that since a high school football team is for high school students, they shouldn't have an adult be making plays for them?

11 uses student coaches because that is our preference, but we recognize that as long as a team's goal is roughly in the neighborhood of inspiring students/teaching engineering, it's up to them to decide how they want to achieve those goals.

[artdutra04]

But, one interesting argument I saw was: If adults can be coaches why cant they also drive the robot? Can anyone expand on that question?Think about the role of coaches in typical sports, whether its football, baseball, basketball, an Olympic sports team, etc.

Who are they? What role do they fulfill? What roles don't they fulfill? What do they bring to the position that makes them beneficial to the team? Why not have one of the current players be the coach?

[LeelandS]

Nope. FIRST is about culture change. It's about changing perceptions that STEM isn't "hip". It's not about education or students exactly. It's about showing them that STEM is as cool as playing in the NFL.

Not trying to start an argument or nitpick semantics here... But what exactly would the point of such a culture change be if not for students? The culture change is to encourage the next generation to pick up STEM. The next generation is the current students. If FIRST is about the culture change...

[delsaner]

Reasoning seems to change between different teams, depending on how education is passed down from mentors to students.

I know teams that have adults be the drive coach, so the students who are on the drive team are directly working with their mentors on the field.

I know teams (when I was on the drive team for my team) who have a student be the drive coach. After the match, the drive team sit down with the adults and discuss how the match went, pros/cons, etc.

Both of the reasons stated above have their benefits and their downfalls, it is just a matter of opinion. I am personally a fan of having a student be the drive coach for a few reasons.
1) It gives students an excellent opportunity to be on the field.
2) Important and on-the-spot decision making is a very handy ability to learn.
3) Adults can still be a part of the drive team, you just meet for 10 minutes outside the pits and discuss.

Once again, I would say it is up to how the team runs at competition. If you think an adult drive coach is a better way to teach students, go for it. If you think a student drive coach is better, go for it.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Not trying to start an argument or nitpick semantics here... But what exactly would the point of such a culture change be if not for students? The culture change is to encourage the next generation to pick up STEM. The next generation is the current students. If FIRST is about the culture change...

Ah, I started out nitpicking. Your assertion that students need to be a focus is accurate. I'm merely asserting that they aren't THE focus implication being that there are other things that also must be focused on as well if we are to attain our goals.

[FrankJ]

I am firmly in the the student coach camp. We also have a debrief after every match.

[Akash Rastogi]

Also, during strategy meetings with alliance members I see students routinely yield to the adult and not participate as actively in the conversation. The adult often seem to dominate the discussion because they are an authority figure.



Apart from parts of your post that people have already answered, I think this one is the most important.

It is important to select a coach, whether student or adult, who can be assertive in decision making situations. On the other hand, the coach also needs to be able to take orders and cooperate with alliance captains, or the team that is best at strategy. I've seen plenty of student coaches who can give out orders to adult coaches, and the exact opposite.

If teams have an issue in which their student or adult coach is not assertive during a match, it might be a good idea to set up some sort of training exercise with good coaches and various scenarios they might have to deal with. Most times, student and adult coaches will concede control in a match to a coach on another team that is more highly regarded on the field. This is usually a good call for most teams. Another scenario is that coaches will concede control to the team who is the best scorer. Kids may see adult coaches as authority figures, but that might mean you need to select a student coach that knows when to be quiet and learn, and when to speak up. They must be confident in themselves, but should not have a false sense of confidence if they are inexperienced.

I think both adult and student coaches are necessary in FRC so that kids learn how to communicate with people in the real world who they see as authority figures. This is extremely important in the workplace because you will always run into superiors with whom you disagree. If kids learn how to deal with a situation like this through FRC, then they'll be better off in the long run.

Just my opinion on the matter. In the end, do what you feel is the best option for your team.

[Mark Sheridan]

I have done both on my teams and I think it depends on your team's culture. Now, I think 766 went back to students but 3309 will continue to use an adult (um me). I was originally used to streamline the drive team process hence I was made the coach. I see my role as:

-to keep my students focused
-to calm my students
-to shield my students from blame
-to negotiate the match strategy on the behalf of my students

In the past, I had to comfort my students after a loss, I also had to tell some to cool off. Sometimes these tense moments its better for an adult to be there to help make it better so we can all move on happier.

The past two years, I have had made the previous year's drivers coach the new drivers at an off season event. The old drivers are now college mentors so they are still adults. I just coach a few matchs to make sure everything is ok. I hope this remains a tradition for 3309.

[Peter Matteson]

But, one interesting argument I saw was: If adults can be coaches why cant they also drive the robot? Can anyone expand on that question?

The same reasons that the coaches don't play football or baseball or basketball against the students. The competion isn't really for us. We are already inspired and part of the STEM professional world.

This is for the students students. They are the ones who need the experience. The adult mentors are there to guide them with experience as needed to try and prevent the competition from being an exercise in frustration.

[themccannman]

The same reasons that the coaches don't play football or baseball or basketball against the students. The competion isn't really for us. We are already inspired and part of the STEM professional world.

This is for the students students. They are the ones who need the experience. The adult mentors are there to guide them with experience as needed to try and prevent the competition from being an exercise in frustration.

I second this.

Why don't coaches drive the bots? The same reason why coaches don't play on their own baseball or football teams. The coaches are there to guide the students. The best way for a driver to learn to think on their feet is to have someone who has experience walking them through the process. You have to put a little faith in the mentors that they'll know where the line is and not be too overbearing. Keep in mind we trust mentors to know the line with every other aspect of FRC teams. If you can trust mentors to not build and design entire robots for the students, then I think you can trust them to know how to coach drivers.

[magnets]

The answer to this question really depends on the team. On our team, we never even think about having an adult coach. Ever. The students would kill the mentors. Our team works on the theory that student build the robot, and mentors provide engineering guidance. However, many teams are much different. For instance, 148's idea is to have mentors and students work with each other with equal roles. As a result, the students may not do as much work, but they still get as much inspiration, and get to work on and get exposed some of the more advanced and technical stuff on FRC robots. There are fantastic teams with adult coaches, and fantastic teams with student coaches.

[Deetman]

Not trying to start an argument or nitpick semantics here... But what exactly would the point of such a culture change be if not for students? The culture change is to encourage the next generation to pick up STEM. The next generation is the current students. If FIRST is about the culture change...

The same reasons that the coaches don't play football or baseball or basketball against the students. The competion isn't really for us. We are already inspired and part of the STEM professional world.

This is for the students students. They are the ones who need the experience. The adult mentors are there to guide them with experience as needed to try and prevent the competition from being an exercise in frustration.

I'd contend that the culture change can, should, and does include adults as well. Sure most of the adults already have experience or are already supporters/participants in STEM fields, but I have heard and witnessed many stories of adults being inspired by FIRST as well. Sure the students are the primary goal, but if there aren't any adults being inspired (in different ways than students) where would all the mentors and volunteers come from? I know that as a mentor and volunteer I get immense inspiration and satisfaction participating in FRC from the students and those around me.

[JVN]

For instance, 148's idea is to have mentors and students work with each other with equal roles. As a result, the students may not do as much work, but they still get as much inspiration, and get to work on and get exposed some of the more advanced and technical stuff on FRC robots.

I would not comment in this thread, except our team was specifically mentioned and perhaps misrepresented...

Our team emphasizes a partnership between students and mentors in all aspects of our program. Students and mentors work together on brainstorming.
Students and mentors work together on design.
Our team benefits from a sheet-metal sponsor, who helps fabricate our "bent" parts.
Students do almost all of the manufacturing of our "machined" parts.
Students do almost all of the robot assembly.
Students and mentors work together on programming.
Students and mentors work together on iteration and debugging.
Students and mentors share responsibility at competition.
Our driveteam contains 3 students and 1 mentor coach.

I will say...
To imply that our students "may not do as much work" is funny to me, and would cause a lot of eye-rolls from the students on our team.

[magnets]

I would not comment in this thread, except our team was specifically mentioned and perhaps misrepresented...

Our team emphasizes a partnership between students and mentors in all aspects of our program. Students and mentors work together on brainstorming.
Students and mentors work together on design.
Our team benefits from a sheet-metal sponsor, who helps fabricate our "bent" parts.
Students do almost all of the manufacturing of our "machined" parts.
Students do almost all of the robot assembly.
Students and mentors work together on programming.
Students and mentors work together on iteration and debugging.
Students and mentors share responsibility at competition.
Our driveteam contains 3 students and 1 mentor coach.

I will say...
To imply that our students "may not do as much work" is funny to me, and would cause a lot of eye-rolls from the students on our team.

I didn't mean it that way at all. In fact, I think that running things your way can be better and less frustrating. I know that the way your team runs is fantastic, and in no way was I trying to say that your students didn't work hard. They must work hard in order to make such great robots. What I was trying to say was that on a team like yours, the students and the mentors work together. As a result, the team is more efficient, and doesn't waste time/resources, because the adults make more rational and have more experience to back up their decisions.

[bachster]

One consideration I don't see mentioned much in these discussions is the value of the competition experience for the whole team, not just the drive team. All the team members who designed, built, programmed, marketed, videotaped, fundraised, scouted, etc. have a vested interest in seeing the fruits of their labor meet their full potential. Choice of drive team members, including coach, may have a huge impact on ensuring that the strategy chosen by the team is executed, that the scouting data is utilized, and that the robot performs to its technical capabilities during match play.

Imagine being a programmer who spent 6 weeks of her life perfecting autonomous code only to watch helplessly from the stands while the robot crashes into the wall because the drive team failed to set it up properly. Or being a scout who has been running around all weekend gathering data and analyzing alliance and opponent capabilities, only to watch that analysis become meaningless when a coach doesn’t assert him- or herself to execute the best strategy.

Depending on the team, having a mentor in the drive coach role may be the best way to provide the most students the inspiration that comes from seeing your “baby” succeed, in whatever way you define success.

To comment specifically on the (unfortunately commonly cited) concerns that an adult coach can be intimidating and overbearing to alliance members: I would sincerely hope that any mentors in the drive coach role would consider themselves mentors to all students in FIRST, not just those with the same team number. Whether it’s introducing new ways of thinking about strategy, modeling professional communication, or just staying grounded during tense situations, this can be a good opportunity for students on other teams to benefit from another type of mentoring relationship than what they normally experience. A drive coach who strays from Gracious Professional behavior, whether student or adult, may need to be reminded of FIRST’s priorities by his or her own teammates/mentors, the formal complaint system, a one on one conversation with the affected party, or whatever other mechanism is appropriate. It is difficult to change culture with rules – if mentor coaches were outlawed, the net effect could very well be that by trying to eliminate a few instances of negative experience, even more opportunities for positive experience are also eliminated.

For those long-standing mentor coaches: are you doing what you can to mentor all students you come into contact with? I hope that by getting a chance to interact with you, my students - both those on the drive team and those watching their robot execute a strategy alongside yours – are inspired by the experience.

[kuraikou]

For our team it is simple, our Mentors have 7ish years of first experience both as students and as mentors, so they simply keep their hands off and tell us what to do such as what discs to get or reminders on what to watch out for.

[Ashwin775]

I'll answer when you find a student football coach :)

(coming form a student driver, with a team which has an excellent adult coach)

[jijiglobe]

The reason the students are constantly yielding to the adults at strategy meetings isn't because the adults are older, its because the adults are the drive coaches. Having someone versed in strategy can help a team during matches so teams don't have to train someone new every year. Someone who's been in the game for a number of years is more likely to keep a level head in bad situation and make strategic plays. Having this option open allows some teams to take advantage of it to do better at competition while allowing students to fulfil the role if necessary. Also, having an adult drive coach does mean that drivers are more likely to listen to what their coaches are saying. In short, forcing teams to go one way or another is stupid because there are advantages to having a student drive coach and advantages to having an adult one.

[Coach Norm]

According to Wikipedia: In sports, a coach is a person involved in the direction, instruction and training of the operations of a sports team or of individual sportspeople. A coach may also be a teacher.

In addition Wikipedia says: Students at the University of Oxford in the early nineteenth-century used the word informally to refer to a private tutor who would "carry" a less able student through his examinations. Hence the meaning of the word was extended to encompass any instructor or trainer.

I am the drive coach for our team at our FRC regional contests. I have a background of coaching high school sports for 17+ years. I agree with many responders here that each team should do what is best for their team.
I know of several teams who were have partnered with at tournaments who use students as drive coaches and have had great success.
We as a team believe that each alliance should have say in the strategy but also that a higher ranked team should have large say in this strategy.

I can honestly say that coaching can be a tough position to be in. There are lots of things happening extremely fast out there and it is very important to be very knowledgeable of all six teams on the field at that current time. An effective coach needs to have a good scout team and awareness of the capabilities of the robots on the field. Strategy is something that should change not only from match to match but also during the match.

I also am believer that any coach on the field should be responsible to all three team members of the alliance. The coach should not intimidate any students on the alliance. It is very important for the coach to be positive and try to improve all team members of the alliance when he has the chance. This includes before match, in match as well as after the match is over.

FIRST is about causing change. We as individuals and teams should respect the decisions of each individual team to do what is best for them: student coach or adult coach. I do believe that the decisions of the coach has a huge impact on the success of the team and the alliance.

[Abhishek R]

I would not comment in this thread, except our team was specifically mentioned and perhaps misrepresented...

This is why I think CD users should stay away from making statements or assumptions about other teams without specific involvement or understanding of the team.

624 has always had a student coach, and that has worked well for us as the drive team can fully understand each other and have a common basis on which to build upon; that is they see each other every day at school and already have an existing and good relationship. We don't have to start from scratch. It also emphasizes more student-driven leadership.

However, there is nothing wrong with an adult coach, for the reasons others have already mentioned. Both sides can be argued for and rightly defended. It boils down to team philosophy and structure.

[Laaba 80]

Also, during strategy meetings with alliance members I see students routinely yield to the adult and not participate as actively in the conversation. The adult often seem to dominate the discussion because they are an authority figure.

If any coach, student or adult, yields to anything other than a superior strategy and a better chance to win, they are the wrong person for the job. Too many teammates worked too hard for their success to be limited by someone afraid to speak up.

[Abhishek R]

If any coach, student or adult, yields to anything other than a superior strategy and a better chance to win, they are the wrong person for the job. Too many teammates worked too hard for their success to be limited by someone afraid to speak up.

How do you determine superior strategy? What if both parties see their strategy as superior; then it gets more destructive than constructive.

[lnex1357]

So as many good people have noted, the discussions on this forum regarding this topic abound in plenty. I would like to offer up our perspective on team 2168 via the power point provided at the link below. Each year for the past 3 years, I have had the opportunity to speak on several FRC team topics at the CT FIRST University Day. For the past couple years one of the workshops that I work to provide is on the fundamentals for creating a competitive drive team. Note that these slides represent our expressed opinions based on experience, so glean from them as you so desire. The only further comment I would like to make to the author of this thread is that it is important to never underestimate the value of mature, consistent, experienced, leadership. Especially in a high stress, time constrained environment. It is my belief, that the best teams in the world are predicated on the quality, consistency, maturity, and experience of mentors that are devoted to the team year after year. This thought process for our team translates into the results we expect in preparation and execution by our drive team. Best of luck as you search for answers. Never stop trying to improve. :)

-Josh

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0AV68ezQuDZTUt2YzNQckdsWW8/edit?usp=sharing

(In case the google drive link somehow disappears an older version of these slides is available on our website www.team2168.org. The latest version of these slides will be posted once we are done re-configuring our website back-end.

[Qbot2640]

Many people are saying that this should be up to the team and what works best for them. That would be fine if the team competed alone.

Leave it up to the alliance if it is truly an "individual" decision - so a team that believes this role should be filled by a non-college student member does not have to endure the possibility of an alliance partner's adult coach trying to tell them what to do.

Yes - it's rare...but there are rude and aggressive adult coaches* out there, and in my opinion one is too many. Especially when the alternative is teaching a student to fill the leadership role. I have heard all the arguments for having adult coaches...and there are good ones...but none outweigh the negative effect of the dominating adult coach on a young driver.

*Yes, a student coach can be rude and aggressive too...but that is a different thing - not nearly as intimidating.

[Laaba 80]

How do you determine superior strategy? What if both parties see their strategy as superior; then it gets more destructive than constructive.

It can be tricky, but generally scouting data rules. After 3 years as a student and 3 years as an "adult" leading the strategy discussions for our team, I can't think of a single time where I felt we've went into a match with a sub-par plan. Obviously I can't speak for any of our partners, but I'd like to think they feel the same way. It is also important to realize the difference between wanting to show off your robot, and what is best for your alliance.

[Anupam Goli]

While
on the topic of student coaches yielding to adult coaches:

While this year we will have a mentor coach, last year our team used a student coach. Our student coach was not a pushover to other coaches, and would agree to work on the best strategy for the alliance, no matter whose it was. I partially like to attribute our student coach's ability to work with other student and adult coaches to our team culture. Our students and mentors not only work hand-in-hand, but the line separating student and mentor is very blurry, almost nonexistent. Most of us see each other as people we're working with (I've been on the end of many jokes, and have retorted with my own many a time). The blurring of this line makes our students not only assert themselves, but gives them the confidence to stick with their plan and respectfully engage in discussions with mentors and adults, something that really helps not only with student coaching, but also with talking to judges and professionals.

Student coaches and adult coaches are going to have to work with eachother, no matter what level of FRC they're at. The best way to quell fears of mentor coaches overpowering student coaches (It doesn't happen often, in fact i've never seen it happen, but i have less match experience than many) is to have the student coach not only be confident in his or her own strategies, but also see mentor coaches as equals on the field.

[Chris is me]

Many people are saying that this should be up to the team and what works best for them. That would be fine if the team competed alone.

Leave it up to the alliance if it is truly an "individual" decision - so a team that believes this role should be filled by a non-college student member does not have to endure the possibility of an alliance partner's adult coach trying to tell them what to do.

Yes - it's rare...but there are rude and aggressive adult coaches* out there, and in my opinion one is too many. Especially when the alternative is teaching a student to fill the leadership role. I have heard all the arguments for having adult coaches...and there are good ones...but none outweigh the negative effect of the dominating adult coach on a young driver.

I don't really follow this reasoning. One person of a group is a jerk, so no person of that group gets to do something. Of course jerks shouldn't be on drive teams, and no student should have to deal with one, but that's no reason to fundamentally change the way hundreds of teams operate. One could argue that this scenario is analogous to the real world. After high school, these students will have numerous opportunities to "work with" insufferable pricks who don't respect them and act superior based on semi-arbitrary characteristics like their age. The difference in FIRST is that you don't have to work with them for more than 15 minutes.

---

I have a few scattered thoughts that I want to mention in my dazed, sleep deprived, I-have-two-exams-in-24-hours state. For background, I was a student drive coach for my high school team, 1714, in 2009 (though certainly not a very good one). Since then I have done match strategy for 2791 for the past 4 years working under two great adult coaches, and I mentor coached for one off season event.

We talk a lot about a mentor coach depriving a student of opportunity on their team, but do we ever stop and think about the other 3/4 of the drive team? It's possible that picking a student coach when a mentor would be more qualified (not that this is always the case!) would be depriving those other 3 students of essential leadership and inspiration. What about the other 20 students on that team? They've worked their butts off and want nothing more than to leave everything on the field. Do we not owe it to them to enable our team to have the best possible chance of success we can manage?

The caveat I will add is that my opportunity to be a student coach on 1714 was a turning point in both my FRC career and my life as a whole and that I can't say for certain that I would be involved in FRC to the extent that I am without that opportunity.

On 2791, this debate is purely academic. In our six year history there has been one student whom was vocally interested in strategy and coaching. This student worked with me for several years doing match strategy. He also was on the drive team as an operator for two years as well as a coach for part of an off season event. I don't think we deprived him of anything, really, seeing as he was exposed to and worked in a lot of the aspects of coaching (forming a strategy, executing under pressure, behind the glass decision making).

For everyone else, our mentor coaches have served as role models and inspiration. The drive team works extensively with the drive coach throughout the year, and this mentorship opportunity has been phenomenal. I immediately think of a student who started out timid, a little awkward, and unsure of his place on 2791. He stepped up and tried driving in 2011 for an event... and he wasn't that great at it. This student worked HARD since then, seeing the drive team as a goal he wanted to reach more than anything on the team. His experience working under the direct mentorship of our drive coach for nearly two years now has clearly helped him grow as a person. He's more confident, more determined, more motivated in general. He's now the Vice President of the team and probably a shoe-in for a driver position again next year. I genuinely think that if he was to work with a series of student coaches, he would not have had the kind of inspiring, developing experience that a consistent, experienced, and mature mentor coach can help him achieve.

One last thought: As a student coach in 2009, I cannot think of a single time in which I was overruled by an older coach, ever. We competed at Champs and IRI that year so we had plenty of opportunity for this to happen. I always walked into strategy meetings with a firm game plan and a willingness to listen, and every single time I was taken seriously. If your student coach is smart, resourceful, analytical, and a good communicator, you should have no problems at all in your strategy meetings or on the field.

[mathking]

I am reminded of a music history professor's response to a student who said "Rap music is crap, it's not even real music." The response was "There is good music and bad music, but there is no such thing as a bad style of music." The decision about adult coach and student coach has to be made by the team. It's not a morality play and there is no one right answer.

We have generally had adults coaching at our in season FRC events (with a couple of exceptions) and students who had been drivers coaching at our off season events. One of the reasons we have been hesitant to have students as coaches has been because of some of the pushy adults. There have been a few jerks but by and large the pushier adults are just people who are used to students being deferential to them. It can be hard for students when an adult is telling them to do something they don't think is the best course of action. On the other hand, we have had more than a few student coaches on allied teams loose their cool and raise the possibility of serious arguments.

The mentor who has been our on field coach for most matches the past five years is an experienced FRC coach now, and has coached other sports as well. But as important as this experience is, what makes him a great FRC coach is the fact the he is amazingly level headed. He is able to keep our team (and often other teams) calm and manage all the ups and downs in an FRC match. I remember once when an adult mentor on another team was trying to "fix" our robot between two elimination matches. He came very close to breaking the robot because while he could see what was wrong, he didn't know our robot and didn't know the correct way to fix it. Our coach was able to address him adult to adult and get him to back off without making him angry. In a way that a student would have been hard pressed to do. We got the robot fixed and won the match and the round. (And then promptly broke in the semi-finals. Hey, it's FRC.)

So my view is like many other posters. Do what works for your team. As the mentor who has effectively been the head coach or co-head coach for the past decade, I view my job as choosing a drive team that will be the most likely to accomplish all of our goals. Doing well in the competition is a very important part of that. Being good role models is more important. But doing our best to provide a positive, rewarding experience for all of our team members is the most important goal.

[E Dawg]

As long as the mentor isn't taking on an over-dominant role I believe it's fine. Many of the adults have been in the shoes of current students and know what they are doing. However, in the end it should really be the student's decision on what to do.

Advice is what adult coaches will probably be giving. Everyone must remember that giving advice is not the same thing as giving orders.

[avanboekel]

This is the first year I feel we had a good, active coach, and was the first year we used a mentor coach. You have to put someone in at the position of coach that the drivers will listen to, and respect their strategies and opinions. I don't think we really achieved this until last year, and were able to compete at a higher level because of it.

Students weren't feeling left out, or excluded (at least none of them that I talked to). We put the best person in there to help the robot perform to it's full potential.

[KrazyCarl92]

There have been a lot of posts about jerk/rude/aggressive adult drive coaches, but I haven't seen any posts about jerk/rude/aggressive student drive coaches. The issue is the jerk/rude/aggressive drive coaches, irregardless of their age. If you think that those behaviors are exclusive to adults, you're kidding yourself. It has nothing to do with the rules about the age of who is eligible for the position.

Team 20 uses a student drive coach, but we understand and respect other teams' decisions to use mentors in this role. Let's face it, some of those mentors are phenomenal sources of inspiration. Those 9+ students on the field with that alliance all get to work closely with them. Would those students be more inspired if a student was on the field performing the same role as that inspirational mentor? Having students work closely with adult mentors who are role models in STEM is the way that FIRST aims to change culture and inspire young people to become leaders in STEM. Do not forget that the FIRST mission says "mentor" the exact same number of times it says "young people".

[AdamHeard]

There have been a lot of posts about jerk/rude/aggressive adult drive coaches, but I haven't seen any posts about jerk/rude/aggressive student drive coaches. The issue is the jerk/rude/aggressive drive coaches, irregardless of their age. If you think that those behaviors are exclusive to adults, you're kidding yourself. It has nothing to do with the rules about the age of who is eligible for the position.

Team 20 uses a student drive coach, but we understand and respect other teams' decisions to use mentors in this role. Let's face it, some of those mentors are phenomenal sources of inspiration. Those 9+ students on the field with that alliance all get to work closely with them. Would those students be more inspired if a student was on the field performing the same role as that inspirational mentor? Having students work closely with adult mentors who are role models in STEM is the way that FIRST aims to change culture and inspire young people to become leaders in STEM. Do not forget that the FIRST mission says "mentor" the exact same number of times it says "young people".

I'm not making this post to criticize students, but just following through some logic.

As a mentor, I run into rude student coaches about just as much as rude mentor coaches. The rude mentor coach is more likely to dominate a discussion, the rude mentor coach is more likely to go along with the discussion but then do their own plan anyway.

I would wager it's just far less likely that a mentor comes on chief after the fact to complain about team XYZs rude student coach than the opposite situation.

I agree with others that teams should put the best person out there.

It was important to me that I do not coach for the 2014 season, so we tried out some other coaches this fall. One was a sophomore in high school, one was a sophomore in college. Age wasn't a factor, we picked people.

[BrendanB]

How do you determine superior strategy? What if both parties see their strategy as superior; then it gets more destructive than constructive.

This is the hardest part about being the drive coach/lead strategists. I know many teams where they have a dedicated strategy team who runs the field operations/pre-match strategy and the drive coach is responsible for carrying out these instructions. Other teams the drive coach is responsible for both the strategy and execution. I have been a member on teams who have both approaches and my personal goal is that our team moves into having a match strategy team that branches out of our scouting team. At the moment we are still very young and small so a dedicated, committed group is slowly growing.

I have been our team's drive coach for the past three seasons. My personal goal while working with the other teams in our alliance during qualification rounds is that we all show our strengths and don't interfere with each other on the field. I have this over-sized whiteboard that we use to mark where each person wants to start in autonomous, where they want to feed from, where they want to travel on the field, and where they want to hang. At first glance people think the giant whiteboard is overkill and focused on winning but in reality it's so our we and our partners can better communicate how we play the game. When problems arise we try to work through them together weighing out the options. Typically everyone was best from the back of the pyramid and it came down to who could shoot from the corner and which side (L or R). Even though going into these pre-match meetings I have an idea of the strategy I want us to execute it all depends on what our partners want to do. We try to be accommodating because we want to treat our partners how we want to be treated. There have been matches where teams desperately wanted us to play defense or allow them to play the offensive role not really considering that we also needed to play our offensive game if we wanted to look good to scouts. No one wants to be bullied into playing a role because someone hands them a piece of paper showing their average point score is not useful. Scouting data is very important to communicating performance to partners and developing match strategy but you can't use it the wrong way.

During eliminations that attitude does change. The goal is to win and play your best which also requires working closely with your partners. Sometimes you need to have someone who can tell other teams what to do. I have worked with some teams who don't want to play the role they were picked for (defense) or consistently do something that hurts the alliance as a whole (penalties or interfering with partners). These moments are stressful and are hard to handle but again, someone on the alliance has to be able to fill this role to handle problems. If you aren't the alliance captain, your role is not the determine match strategy or drive the show unless the alliance captain gives you that permission.

Many times I feel this can be overlooked by many drive coaches (students and adults) in that its not just about your team looking good, its about all three teams on the field looking their best and performing well. Sometimes it requires a little bartering (an ubertube for a minibot pole, the coopertition bridge for the center spot on the key, the side of the pyramid for the back spot to hang*) but you have to work it out.

In one of the prior threads there was the discussion that the drive coach has to be the person that at the end of the day if a risky decision is made they have to be the person the team will both respect and entrust that decision to. This past year there were many decisions I made both before and during a match that either payed off or didn't work. Doing one cycle then playing defense in finals match 3 at our last regional is one of those decisions that was extremely risky and it was a last second decision made with just over a minute left to play. I saw a problem with heavy defense preventing us from cycling to the unprotected slot and could potentially keep us on the far side of the field away from the pyramid and our 30 point climb. Moving to the protected slot was causing massive interference with our partners 2648 slowing us both down. This also meant their defensive player was now following us and we were leading them to our main frisbee scorer 2648 allowing them to play double defense. We moved to defense after our first cycling hoping that 63 would follow us and help us slow down the heavy offense from our opponents 125 and 176. It worked in our favor and 2648 was able to shoot more frisbees compared to our two opponents and we were close to our pyramid to get the 30 point climb winning by a margin of 15 points.

Other decisions to attempt one more cycle, going to climb early, etc did not pay off. Some of them had large impacts on our rank or how we looked to scouts and others not so much but they are decisions that have to be made. During competitions you are representing the team, school, and your sponsors.

It's an extremely big role to fill and I try my best to make sure our students grow during the process by explaining decisions, asking how they would play a certain match, or helping to point out why certain strategies wouldn't work. I also try my best to learn from every student, parent, mentor, etc who has feedback on a match or our performance to become better in my role. I will admit I am not a perfect drive coach so every year and tournament I find areas to improve.

This is just my personal opinion and may not reflect the views of 3467 entirely.

*Trading a shooting spot for the back of the pyramid to do our climb was the biggest trade we made all season.

[Phyrxes]

I put myself firmly in the use what works for you group on this debate. Up until this year team 2068 had an adult drive coach, he has since changed school divisions and the student leadership asked the mentors if we were willing to try a student drive coach.

Our plan for the 2014 game is to have a student handle drive coach responsibilities but to have the student work closely with the strategy/scouting mentor so that and "adult" is present if that becomes an issue, while we don't expect this to be an issue we want to be prepared.

I also want to say my interactions with Shan, most recently from 612, convinced me that the certainly the right student can handle the duties if you let them try.

[thefro526]

There have been a lot of posts about jerk/rude/aggressive adult drive coaches, but I haven't seen any posts about jerk/rude/aggressive student drive coaches. The issue is the jerk/rude/aggressive drive coaches, irregardless of their age. If you think that those behaviors are exclusive to adults, you're kidding yourself. It has nothing to do with the rules about the age of who is eligible for the position.

Carl, this is a really interesting point. Having seen this from both the student and mentor side of things, I'd say that there's probably similar numbers of 'rude' student coaches as there are 'rude' mentor coaches out there - but their actions are interpreted much differently.

In the case of a rude student coach, more often than not, their actions seem to be due in part to a lack of 'wisdom' and/or 'maturity' in their position. More often than not, those who would fit into the 'rude' category are often teams that we can all empathize with - A team going into one of their final qualifying matches, with a number that you may or may not have heard before, their robot is 'awesome' - according to them, and they want to show their stuff before alliance selections with the hope of getting picked. More often than not, we seem to let these slide because in reality, we've probably all been there at least once and can empathize with a student that's pouring their heart and soul into their efforts and may come across as overly forceful or 'rude'.

Mentor Coaches can be a bit different, but can also come across in the same way as Student Coaches mentioned above. It seems like some of 'rude' mentor coaches fit a similar mold, where they're unreasonably forceful or just plain mean and have no real backing to be that way. When we encounter these people, it seems like they'll be rarely forgiven, and after being 'rude' enough times seem to end up on the collective 'do not pick' list.

I guess what I'm getting at here, is that there are two different kinds of 'rude' going on here - one is something that we can relate to, a by product of being in the heat of competition and having the dreams of an entire team riding on your shoulders with the other being something that we can't relate to, and that's just an unexplained attitude towards another team because of some random reason that isn't based in logic.


Team 20 uses a student drive coach, but we understand and respect other teams' decisions to use mentors in this role. Let's face it, some of those mentors are phenomenal sources of inspiration. Those 9+ students on the field with that alliance all get to work closely with them. Would those students be more inspired if a student was on the field performing the same role as that inspirational mentor? Having students work closely with adult mentors who are role models in STEM is the way that FIRST aims to change culture and inspire young people to become leaders in STEM. Do not forget that the FIRST mission says "mentor" the exact same number of times it says "young people".

That, all of that.

Some of the most inspirational people in my FRC Career have been Mentor Coaches. Sharing a booth for a single match with the right person can be just enough to change an entire teams outlook on their season, or their FIRST experience. I can think of all of the times when I was a driver as a student and I would receive a comment from some of the mentor coaches that we played with and against in our travels and I can honestly say that a lot of the lessons they taught me or reinforced in me still stick with me now that I'm an 'Adult.'

[Kyle A]

Ever since I have been Involved with CRT 306, the drive couch has been a student. For our team this person, is someone that know the rules front to back. It is someone who can watch every element of the game while playing a match, and know how to change the strategy if need be. It is also someone who knows the robot almost inside and out and knows its abilities. It is also someone the the drivers will listen to, and if the drives don't isn't afraid to give them a little head slap to get them to listen.
As it has been said every team is different, everyone operates a different way, what work for one may not work for another. This topic comes up every year, and every year it is the same thing. Do what works best for your team.

This past season I did get the chance to be behind the wall again for the first time since I was drive coach in 2007. Our couch because dreadfully ill, and the drive team wasn't comfortable with any of the other students, and voted me in. As cool as it was I remembered how stressful it is behind that wall, I will leave it to the students. This year we are making sure we have back ups for everything because you never know what can happen.

[Lil' Lavery]

I've been "behind the glass" as both a student coach and mentor coach during my time in FRC (as well as every other position during off-season events while I was a student). There's a lot I learned in both roles, and I hope I've managed to share a lot with others as both a student and mentor coach. I've bested 1114 every time I've faced them (and only once been aided by a broken Simbots tread ;) ), and I've also been humbled by a #8 alliance in the quarter-finals. There's a lot that goes on in coaching, and it really is up to each and every team to determine what best suits them.

For 116, we always had student coaches. That's the decision the team arrived at long before I was a member, and how it has continued to this day. I was the lead drive coach there for two years, with the same driver, operator, and human player both times. We developed chemistry together, and that time together was a large part of how we functioned as a "unit." Selections of every position were accomplished via try-outs judged by the mentors.

1712 viewed the role of the drive team very differently, especially when I first joined. There were no try-outs for drive positions, and they were almost more of a reward for particularly dedicated (and qualified) students. The coaching position was filled by a college mentor who was a former driver, and I became the back-up coach for him. We ran two drive crews, each of us coaching one of them.
Over the years the situation changed. Some years we ran one drive crew, others we ran two. In 2009, we used a student as drive coach (but I stayed involved in pre-match strategy planning). The general factor that remained the same was a pretty high drive crew turnover after 2008. It was relatively rare to keep more than one member of the previous years' crew on for the next year, mostly due to graduation. We rotated a lot of people thru those positions. Particularly during off-season events, where we lacked many key students and driving is almost an "open" position where lots of students get a chance.
As a result, the coach became a position of stability. Having a mentor coach to step in year after year to help train, educate, and guide new drivers is something invaluable to us. Without a practice robot (and usually way too little time to train our drivers), I help communicate many of the tricks I've picked up over the years to our new drivers.
I feel that the drive team owes a responsibility to the rest of the team and our alliance partners to get the most out of our robot in any given match. For Dawgma, having a seasoned, experience coach is a critical part of accomplishing that. It may not be so for all teams, as it certainly wasn't for my high school team. But given the reality of our situation, it's what works for us.

Is 1712's sytem the best system? Absolutely not. But it was originally the result of the team's philosophies (which paid dividends in many areas) and later a team in transition as a whole. Hopefully we can introduce more stability (both to the drive team and overall) in the coming years as we continue to find our way forward.

[mathking]

I've been "behind the glass" as both a student coach and mentor coach during my time in FRC (as well as every other position during off-season events while I was a student). There's a lot I learned in both roles, and I hope I've managed to share a lot with others as both a student and mentor coach. I've bested 1114 every time I've faced them (and only once been aided by a broken Simbots tread ;) ), and I've also been humbled by a #8 alliance in the quarter-finals. There's a lot that goes on in coaching, and it really is up to each and every team to determine what best suits them.

For 116, we always had student coaches. That's the decision the team arrived at long before I was a member, and how it has continued to this day. I was the lead drive coach there for two years, with the same driver, operator, and human player both times. We developed chemistry together, and that time together was a large part of how we functioned as a "unit." Selections of every position were accomplished via try-outs judged by the mentors.

1712 viewed the role of the drive team very differently, especially when I first joined. There were no try-outs for drive positions, and they were almost more of a reward for particularly dedicated (and qualified) students. The coaching position was filled by a college mentor who was a former driver, and I became the back-up coach for him. We ran two drive crews, each of us coaching one of them.
Over the years the situation changed. Some years we ran one drive crew, others we ran two. In 2009, we used a student as drive coach (but I stayed involved in pre-match strategy planning). The general factor that remained the same was a pretty high drive crew turnover after 2008. It was relatively rare to keep more than one member of the previous years' crew on for the next year, mostly due to graduation. We rotated a lot of people thru those positions. Particularly during off-season events, where we lacked many key students and driving is almost an "open" position where lots of students get a chance.
As a result, the coach became a position of stability. Having a mentor coach to step in year after year to help train, educate, and guide new drivers is something invaluable to us. Without a practice robot (and usually way too little time to train our drivers), I help communicate many of the tricks I've picked up over the years to our new drivers.
I feel that the drive team owes a responsibility to the rest of the team and our alliance partners to get the most out of our robot in any given match. For Dawgma, having a seasoned, experience coach is a critical part of accomplishing that. It may not be so for all teams, as it certainly wasn't for my high school team. But given the reality of our situation, it's what works for us.

Is 1712's sytem the best system? Absolutely not. But it was originally the result of the team's philosophies (which paid dividends in many areas) and later a team in transition as a whole. Hopefully we can introduce more stability (both to the drive team and overall) in the coming years as we continue to find our way forward.

Thank you Sean, this was a great post. The idea of continuity in the drive team is an oft-overlooked component of on field success in FRC. When Deetman was on 1014, he was our arm driver in First Frenzy and the main robot driver for Triple Play. That second year I saw the value of having someone experienced on the drive team. We try to get some underclassmen driving experience each year, but sometimes the best drivers are seniors who haven't driven before. So our mentor coach provides the voice of experience.