Back for more..VEXpro 2014 Product Unveiling

[Ricky Q.]

We're back.

On December 11th at 7:00 pm Central (https://www.facebook.com/events/198634690324643/), we'll be unveiling new additions and improvements to the VEXpro line of products - along with maybe a few special announcements....

This event will be via Google+ Hangouts on Air. Thirty minutes prior to the event, we'll have the link to the live broadcast on YouTube. The link will be posted on the Google+ Event Page, Twitter (@VEXrobotics) (https://twitter.com/vexrobotics) and our Facebook Page (https://www.facebook.com/vexrobotics). We'll also post the link in this thread.

Viewers will have the ability to ask questions live during the broadcast. If you have any questions or items you'd like us to cover, feel free to post them here and we'll do our best to include them.

We're excited for 2014 and can't wait to share what we've been working on!

[billbo911]

We're back.

On December 11th at 7:00 pm Central (https://www.facebook.com/events/198634690324643/), we'll be unveiling new additions and improvements to the VEXpro line of products - along with maybe a few special announcements....

This event will be via Google+ Hangouts on Air. Thirty minutes prior to the event, we'll have the link to the live broadcast on YouTube. The link will be posted on the Google+ Event Page, Twitter (@VEXrobotics) (https://twitter.com/vexrobotics) and our Facebook Page (https://www.facebook.com/vexrobotics). We'll also post the link in this thread.

Viewers will have the ability to ask questions live during the broadcast. If you have any questions or items you'd like us to cover, feel free to post them here and we'll do our best to include them.

We're excited for 2014 and can't wait to share what we've been working on!

Ahh, you're killin' me Ricky!!!
Dec. 11th is so far away!!

I'm excited as well. The experience 2073 had with your new products in 2013 was nothing less than PHENOMENAL!

We now have what we consider our "standard drivetrain". At it's core are two Ball Shifters and six Versa wheels. Through 4 competitions and several demonstrations, not to mention all the practicing, we never had a single failure.
In addition, as anyone who got in a shoving match with us can tell you, we never lost there either!

I am looking forward to what you have up your sleeve next!

[AllenGregoryIV]

Can't Wait.

In in case anyone missed the hint. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1302259&postcount=339)

[magnets]

Vex Pro became our main source for bearings, gears, shafts, and sprockets. Their stuff is really high quality. The sprockets put an end to us having to CNC our own, and their hex bearings/shafts made gearbox design much easier. They are the best supplier for FRC (even better than mcmaster!)

I'm hoping that they'll have-

Belts - hopefully the HTD or GT2 variety

Gearboxes - 3 CIM ball shifter would be epic, as would something with a power takeoff

Gears - an option to buy gears with a really small hole in the center, so that you could make your strange hole in the center if you wanted to

[MichaelBick]

Gears - an option to buy gears with a really small hole in the center, so that you could make your strange hole in the center if you wanted to

Not sure what you mean by this.

[magnets]

Not sure what you mean by this.

There's no way to use a vex pro gear with a 3/8" round shaft. This is annoying if you don't want to use a hex shaft on your robot. Also, we've used spline shafts in the past, and you can't really broach those holes in the gears after you have a 1/2" hex hole in them already.

[DampRobot]

Can't Wait.

In in case anyone missed the hint. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1302259&postcount=339)

I forgot to mention: it looks like the hubs in the picture are a lot thicker and longer, which seems like a good change. They'll probably press into holes for bearings.

My prediction for the release: all versa erything.

[Pault]

I'm really excited for the new releases. The versa planetaries are possibly the best gearbox ever introduced to FIRST (IMHO). I'm hoping to look into ball shifters for next year. And I really want them to release a 6in versa wheel (I have a good reason for not wanting to use 4in wheels, but I'm not going to bother explaining it here).

[runneals]

I can't wait to see what Aren has been engineering since he left us earlier this year :) Will sure be interesting!

[Andrew Lawrence]

Can't wait to bring some more VEX to the West Coast.

[Akash Rastogi]

Really stoked for this. With the combination of VEXpro and VEXIQ, I have a new found respect for the company as a whole.

Can't wait to see it all!

[BigJ]

Can't Wait.

In in case anyone missed the hint. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1302259&postcount=339)

The real question is who got Aren to touch a mecanum wheel.

[Oblarg]

How about cheap plastic HTD/GT2 pulleys of varying tooth counts with both round and hex bores and versa-hub attachments?

Pretty please?

Other thoughts: Flanged bearings where the center circle is raised higher than the flange (this really bugs me about the current ones), gears with bores other than 1/2'' hex (as mentioned earlier), traction wheels smaller than 4'' (Colsons can be a pain to mount to), spacer stock for hex and round shafts (the delrin washers are nice, but stock material we can cut to size would be nicer).

I'd also like to see someone selling something like a quick-disconnect bushing that works with a standard 1.875'' bolt-circle and clamps onto a shaft, rather than requiring keystock and set screws or shaft collars.

[MichaelBick]

I'd also like to see someone selling something like a quick-disconnect bushing that works with a standard 1.875'' bolt-circle and clamps onto a shaft, rather than requiring keystock and set screws or shaft collars.

What is the problem with hex stock?

[Oblarg]

What is the problem with hex stock?

It's a pain to sand down if it's too big (and it often is too big), it's more expensive, and not every team has access to a hex broach and arbor press.

Past that, you still need shaft collars or set-screws to hold a hex hub in place. You need nothing to hold a clamping bushing in place except for the bushing. In general, set-screws are terrible and failure-prone and I do not use them when I can use clamping hardware in their place.

[MichaelBick]

I personally prefer sanding down hex(knowing that later it will be an easy switch) over trying to make key fit. Even so, if you bey hex stock, bearings, gears, etc. all from one place they generally all fit together well.

I can see how a bushing would be easier to use for some teams. We are able to make spacers and shafts with retaining ring grooves so we don't run into those problems. I like your spacer stock idea though. I think that would be easier for vex and better for everybody else than quick disconnect bushings.

[tim-tim]

Hopefully we can see the return of the 2013 prices. It appears that quite a few of the items have recently increased in price.

Still great deals. Still can't wait to see the new lineup.

[geomapguy]

It appears that quite a few of the items have recently increased in price.


Speed controllers increased in price :(

[Paul Copioli]

Speed controllers increased in price :(

The speed controllers increased in price back in April, immediately following the 2013 FRC season. VEX has done reduced pricing during the FRC season the last two years.

[geomapguy]

The speed controllers increased in price back in April, immediately following the 2013 FRC season. VEX has done reduced pricing during the FRC season the last two years.

Thanks for the clarification. Is VEX still producing Jaguars?

[Redo91]

Thanks for the clarification. Is VEX still producing Jaguars?

Sure looks like it. (http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexpro/motor-controllers/217-3367.html)

[Ravage457]

Cant wait to see what is new, our team used the chassis and the vexpro ball shifters, and we absolutly loved it, yea we had that problem with the drive shaft coming out, but once we applied loctite never had problems, im looking forward to using vexpro again, and presenting the new items to the team for this new season:]

[AdamHeard]

The speed controllers increased in price back in April, immediately following the 2013 FRC season. VEX has done reduced pricing during the FRC season the last two years.

With that be done again for 2014?

[Paul Copioli]

Thanks for the clarification. Is VEX still producing Jaguars?

Yes.

With that be done again for 2014?

No promises, but VEXpro prices will remain competitive with the other products in the FRC market.

[Richard Wallace]

... competitive with the other products in the FRC market.Paul Copioli, competitive? Oh, yes, no doubt about that -- especially in the minds of anyone who he has stared at from behind the glass. ;)

In business, too. If other suppliers offer something that threatens to take business away from his company, he WILL respond competitively. No doubt about that one, either.

[Racer26]

See: Victor 888 pricing change immediately in the wake of the release of the Talon last year.

[DampRobot]

I'm pumped... one day until we get to see what VP has dreamed up!

[T^2]

I'm pumped... one day until we get to see what VP has dreamed up!

As am I. I'm sure the "special announcements" will be quite interesting.

[Steven Donow]

I'm glad that my Thursday morning finals are the two I need to study least for!

(Of course, I'm sure this and CD will prove to be the huge distractions/procrastination tools they were today)

[Andrew Lawrence]

As am I. I'm sure the "special announcements" will be quite interesting.

Maybe we'll be surprised and AndyMark will unveil even more new things as well.

[Gregor]

I was really disappointed. I had it in my head that the unveiling was today, but I was confused at around 7:10 CST when the internet didn't explode.

[Andrew Lawrence]

One hour until the unveil! I wonder what we're gonna see.

[Redo91]

One hour until the unveil! I wonder what we're gonna see.

This thread exploding in posts.

Edit: Also, from their facebook page, there are 'over 150 new VEXPro Products'.

[apples000]

, we'll be unveiling new additions and improvements to the VEXpro line of products - along with maybe a few special announcements....



I wonder what the "special announcement" is.

[geomapguy]

I wonder what the "special announcement" is.

Only time can tell....

[Ricky Q.]

We're live at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duNlM22LxGM

See you all soon!

[Foster]

All set to watch! I still have a few days before my letter to Santa is due at the North Pole!

[Ricky Q.]

We'll be looking for questions in this ChiefDelphi thread, in Facebook comments and on Twitter - use #VEXpro

[geomapguy]

Ah the joys of doing calculus homework and robotics at the same time :)

[DampRobot]

Ah the joys of doing calculus homework and robotics at the same time :)

Ha. Like that's going to happen...

[z_beeblebrox]

Live

[Steven Donow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MddQjSysfcA

Unveiling video.

[Ernst]

VEXpro 2014 LIVE Product Unveiling (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MddQjSysfcA)

Edit: Deven beat me to it

[Foster]

Hey, Switch the Video Feed!!! We are still watching the two of you!

[Ricky Q.]

Hey, Switch the Video Feed!!! We are still watching the two of you!

We've got it - sorry about that!

[ErvinI]

You had me at Versa Chassis.

[geomapguy]

Really impressed guys!

[z_beeblebrox]

Am now slightly disappointed we didn't opt out of the kitbot.

[Steven Donow]

Question: Is the 'order system' between the multiple sites the same; ie. if a team in California orders from VexPro, will their order be automatically 'rerouted'/transferred through the WCP 'system'?

[apples000]

I am amazed. the 3 cim gearbox is cheaper than the two cim

[z_beeblebrox]

VersaChassis pricing is INCREDIBLE!

[nlknauss]

Question: Wondering if they are going to do a "Drive in a Day" chassis for 2014. We loved this chassis last year. Seems like the VersaChassis may be the focus.

[cbale2000]

Is the stream over? And if not does anyone have the google+ link to it? Youtube isn't working for me. :(

[JB]

Is there anything being done to help minimize the inventory shock typical of the beginning of the season? More specifically hex bearings.

[DampRobot]

Ri3D reality show competition. I can't wait!

[Steven Donow]

"Build Blitz" competition, 72 hour 'reality show' type thing where "Team JVN" and "Team Copioli" compete with drafted VEX/IFI employees; inspired by Ri3D

http://www.buildblitz.com/

[Answer42]

The level of competition this season is going to be insane. I'm a bit disappointed I won't be attached to a team this season because of how easy it is to build a robot with vex pro now.

[Brandon_L]

"I like systems"
"I'm a nerd"
-JVN

"#ballshiftsohard"
-Karthik

Just some gems from the show.

[jman4747]

4" Mecanum. My life is complete.

[Akash Rastogi]

Build Blitz question -

Will Team JVN and Team Paul try to explicitly have two varying concepts during Build Blitz to ensure teams who watch the videos have a variety of ideas to build off of? 

[mman1506]

I wonder why there is a versa pattern on the versaChassis clamp?

[aldaeron]

Where are the CIM keys (2mm keys) at VEX (i.e. the easiest thing to lose)??!!??

-matto-

[zcohen]

Are you guys doing a 2014 kit bot alternative after the game comes out like you did in 2013 or does the VersaChassis take its place?

[sanddrag]

Disappointed to not see #25 hubbed sprockets with a smaller bore. Any chance you could have some just pulled from the production line. I'd be fine even with no bore. But 1/2" won't do it for me.

[geomapguy]

Are the versa planetary base models 1:1 ratios??

[s_forbes]

11 tooth pinion with the same pitch circle diameter as a 12 tooth pinion? Sounds like dark magic to me.

[orangemoore]

4" Mecanum. My life is complete.

This would be amazing for FTC. Too bad we already have our competition saturday

[DampRobot]

I wonder why there is a versa pattern on the versaChassis clamp?

Looks like you can mount a versa sprocket or something to it. Arms?

[Paul Copioli]

Build Blitz question -

Will Team JVN and Team Paul try to explicitly have two varying concepts during Build Blitz to ensure teams who watch the videos have a variety of ideas to build off of? 

I can't really speak for TeamJVN, but my team will definitely be trying to make sure there are at least two totally different robots.

[Paul Copioli]

11 tooth pinion with the same pitch circle diameter as a 12 tooth pinion? Sounds like dark magic to me.

Nope, just profile shift. Used to be called addendum modification. We also have a 13T pinion that fits in the same center distance as a 14T.

[thefro526]

This may be a question geared more at RC and WCP than VexPro, but will WCP's legacy gears (specifically those with a tooth count divisible by 5) no longer be available?

Also, are there any plans for a wider assortment of 32DP Gears? I see that the CIM-ile uses 32DP internals and a really, really trick output shaft/gear, but I don't see any others elsewhere in the line.

Otherwise, all of the new products are really, really cool. Kudos to the people at Vex and WCP, 2014 is going to be really fun.

[s_forbes]

Nope, just profile shift. Used to be called addendum modification. We also have a 13T pinion that fits in the same center distance as a 14T.

Very interesting, I haven't come across this concept before. I can't seem to locate a pinion gear section on the new site, but I will be buying some when they're up.

[DampRobot]

On some of the DS ratios, how come both the 6" and 4" wheel have the same loaded speed?

[Akash Rastogi]

I can't really speak for TeamJVN, but my team will definitely be trying to make sure there are at least two totally different robots.

Very cool.

Best of luck guys! Great new line of products from everyone involved!

[D.Allred]

Wow. Excellent new products. The only thing you are missing are bumper mounts for the new VersaFrame, especially mounts that can take an impact from a set of 3 CIM ballshifters!

David

[AlecS]

On some of the DS ratios, how come both the 6" and 4" wheel have the same loaded speed?

This is because "loaded" gear ratios were calculated over distance of 50ft, the longest a robot would typically have to accelerate in FRC. When geared extremely fast, the 6" wheel draws so much current it cant get up to speed in that distance, so we capped the speeds at 21.5 FPS.

On the speed charts on the WCP site there are some notes about this, and we hope to have a speed calculator up on our website shortly to help teams understand these speeds better.

[Madison]

When do y'all expect to have CAD models for the 4" mecanum wheels available? The page was updated, but there are no new models. :(

[AllenGregoryIV]

Versaframe is using #8 hardware and 5/32 rivets. Might be time for us to consider stepping down from #10 & 3/16" rivets.

We used a similar system in 2012 (http://blog.spectrum3847.org/2012/01/build-day-20-collectorelevator-is.html) but drilled each hole by hand on our drill press and cut every gusset on a bandsaw. This seems like a much easier option.

[Electronica1]

When do y'all expect to have CAD models for the 4" mecanum wheels available? The page was updated, but there are no new models.

You can find cad models here
http://www.wcproducts.net/mecanum-wheel/

[Madison]

You can find cad models here
http://www.wcproducts.net/mecanum-wheel/

I get a 404 (or similar) not found.

[tim-tim]

I get a 404 (or similar) not found.

Do a right click and "Save As"

[Ricky Q.]

When do y'all expect to have CAD models for the 4" mecanum wheels available? The page was updated, but there are no new models. :(

Up on this page now: http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexpro/wheels-and-hubs/mecanum-wheels.html

[AlecS]

Fixed on our site as well

[DampRobot]

Versaframe is using #8 hardware and 5/32 rivets. Might be time for us to consider stepping down from #10 & 3/16" rivets.

We used a similar system in 2012 (http://blog.spectrum3847.org/2012/01/build-day-20-collectorelevator-is.html) but drilled each hole by hand on our drill press and cut every gusset on a bandsaw. This seems like a much easier option.

I was planning on just having people drill the holes out. #10 screws and 3/16" rivets are a better size for FRC IMO, but I'm glad that VP is giving people choices. It's a ton easier to drill out than to figure out some way to use a smaller fastener for an application where it may not be the right choice.

[Madison]

Up on this page now: http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexpro/wheels-and-hubs/mecanum-wheels.html

Thanks! It's so cute.

[Oblarg]

I am pleased to see that pretty much everything I listed in my wish-list earlier in the thread is being sold.

The new HTD pulleys are a very welcome addition. That said, I do wish there were more VersaPulley sizes, and that there were cheaper (and lighter) plastic versions of the small hex-bore pulleys. Maybe in the future?

[Andrew Lawrence]

I am pleased to see that pretty much everything I listed in my wish-list earlier in the thread is being sold.

The new HTD pulleys are a very welcome addition. That said, I do wish there were more VersaPulley sizes, and that there were cheaper (and lighter) plastic versions of the small hex-bore pulleys. Maybe in the future?

When you use pulleys in your drivetrain, they need to be able to withstand constant usage and tension, so plastic wouldn't work too well with those.

[Oblarg]

When you use pulleys in your drivetrain, they need to be able to withstand constant usage and tension, so plastic wouldn't work too well with those.

Are you sure? The plastic AndyMark ones held up marvelously this past year.

[Ricky Q.]

Very interesting, I haven't come across this concept before. I can't seem to locate a pinion gear section on the new site, but I will be buying some when they're up.

Up now here: http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexpro/gears-and-gearboxes/cim-motor-gears.html

[sanddrag]

Nope, just profile shift. Used to be called addendum modification. We also have a 13T pinion that fits in the same center distance as a 14T.I don't understand this one bit, but I'd like to. Is there a more in depth or perhaps visual explanation?

[DampRobot]

I don't understand this one bit, but I'd like to. Is there a more in depth or perhaps visual explanation?

I spent a good amount of time researching this at one point, and as far as I could tell, to make a gear with less toothcount have the same pitch diameter as a larger gear, you take the gear with the toothcount you want and let the teeth extent all the way out until their involute profiles meet, instead of cutting them off at a given diameter (as you would to make it have it be the normal diameter).

Of course, I may be totally wrong, so someone else feel free to correct me on this.

[Clinton Bolinger]

If teams would like to compare shipping options between VEX (Greenville, TX) and The Robot Space (Lapeer, MI) feel free to check out http://ship.therobotspace.com

The Robot Space provides teams in the Midwest and on the East Coast with Next Day or Second Day shipping at Ground Rates on all VEXpro, VEX and VEX IQ product lines.

Also, be sure to check out all of the products at www.therobotspace.com (we will be working each day to add pictures and more information).

Thanks,
Clinton Bolinger
clinton[at]therobotspace.com

[Steven Donow]

I don't understand this one bit, but I'd like to. Is there a more in depth or perhaps visual explanation?

http://www.camnetics.com/geartrax/FlashHelp/images/addendummodification.gif

This is the best google image result I could find given the term "addendum modification". Pretty neat concept.

[Andrew Lawrence]

Are you sure? The plastic AndyMark ones held up marvelously this past year.

And look how big those are.

[Steven Donow]

And look how big those are.

I've seen quite a few plastic pulleys in drivetrains (I believe 207 are one example of this-they 3d printed wheels at least, not sure about pulleys). And even so, the only usage of pulleys isn't drivetrains...

[Oblarg]

And look how big those are.

Sure, but seeing as I didn't see anything even resembling wear on them, I'm not convinced you couldn't get quite a bit smaller with the same material and have it still work.

[Patrick Flynn]

http://www.camnetics.com/geartrax/FlashHelp/images/addendummodification.gif

This is the best google image result I could find given the term "addendum modification". Pretty neat concept.


My understanding of this is that you are going to shrink your tooth addendum, which in turn will allow you to shrink your tooth width. This allows you to maintain the same circular pitch. By still having the same tooth to tooth spacing.
The depth of mesh is the only measure that will change in this case, also know as the gears clearance.

[ttldomination]

Some of CADs are missing or broken, but otherwise, looks decent. We'll need to seriously assess some of these things and how they would fit into our structure.

Personally, the extended gearboxes are great, but the tubing and gussets don't necessarily work for our team. But then again, they're not really marketed for "us."

- Sunny G.

[MrRiedemanJACC]

Clinton,

Awesome job on The Robot Space. Looks like a great thing for the teams here in Michigan and across the midwest.

Here's the information on shipping when I put it into your calculator to Jackson, Michigan:

Ground: $6.90 vs $8.51
2nd Day $6.90 vs $30.22
Next Day $6.90 vs $81.66

Talk about a no brainer! Hope you have a big warehouse!

I will be sending you a PM on how to get you into our Purchase Ordering system, get you our tax exempt information, etc, etc, etc.... Because we will be buying parts!

John Riedeman

[Paul Copioli]

Profile Shift, or addendum modification, can be positive or negative. For a positive profile shift, the tooth looks longer and pointier. For a negative profile shift, the tooth looks short and stubby.

The primary use for profile shift in industry is to avoid undercut in small gears. If you want to see severe undercut then look at the 12 tooth CIM pinion. Undercut lowers the gear's max load carrying ability and is necessary so the mating gear's tooth tip does not interfere with the root of the smaller gear.

As a rule, every gear we design will have profile shift to avoid undercut except when the market conditions do not allow it. For example, the 14.5 pressure angle, 20 Diametral Pitch gears that have been used as a standard in FRC have always used 0 profile shift. Making a 12T pinion with 0 profile shift now would mean all of the center distances would be too close together.

This is very important for really small gears with small module (1 or .5). All of our VEX motors used in VRC have significant profile shift to increase the load carrying capability.

All of the Versaplanetary gears have addendum modification to minimize the
planetary backlash and increase the strength as much as possible.


You really are shifting the profile either out (+) or in (-). QTC gears has really great introductory information on their web site about gears. I make all my new engineers read that web site before I give them the more advanced information.

By the way, the 11T pinion is actually stronger in every way than the 12T gear due to the 12T gear's severe undercut. However, the 12T gear's strength is plenty sufficient for use with a CIM motor.

Paul

[JVN]

Profile Shift, or addendum modification, can be positive or negative. For a positive profile shift, the tooth looks longer and pointier. For a negative profile shift, the tooth looks short and stubby.

The primary use for profile shift in industry is to avoid undercut in small gears. If you want to see severe undercut then look at the 12 tooth CIM pinion. Undercut lowers the gear's max load carrying ability and is necessary so the mating gear's tooth tip does not interfere with the root of the smaller gear.

As a rule, every gear we design will have profile shift to avoid undercut except when the market conditions do not allow it. For example, the 14.5 pressure angle, 20 Diametral Pitch gears that have been used as a standard in FRC have always used 0 profile shift. Making a 12T pinion with 0 profile shift now would mean all of the center distances would be too close together.

This is very important for really small gears with small module (1 or .5). All of our VEX motors used in VRC have significant profile shift to increase the load carrying capability.

All of the Versaplanetary gears have addendum modification to minimize the
planetary backlash and increase the strength as much as possible.


You really are shifting the profile either out (+) or in (-). QTC gears has really great introductory information on their web site about gears. I make all my new engineers read that web site before I give them the more advanced information.

By the way, the 11T pinion is actually stronger in every way than the 12T gear due to the 12T gear's severe undercut. However, the 12T gear's strength is plenty sufficient for use with a CIM motor.

Paul

...and it's soooo awesome.

[BBray_T1296]

Are the versa planetary base models 1:1 ratios??

Yes, as they have no actual gears. The ring and planet gears only come with the ratio add-ons.

If teams would like to compare shipping options between VEX (Greenville, TX) and The Robot Space (Lapeer, MI) feel free to check out http://ship.therobotspace.com (http://ship.therobotspace.com/)

This is a great tool thanks. I am pretty sure we will never need to ship from Michigan, we will stick to driving 20 miles down I-30 and picking them up from VEX ourselves :P

[s_forbes]

The primary use for profile shift in industry is to avoid undercut in small gears. If you want to see severe undercut then look at the 12 tooth CIM pinion. Undercut lowers the gear's max load carrying ability and is necessary so the mating gear's tooth tip does not interfere with the root of the smaller gear.

This makes sense, but I don't think our applications are limited by the strength of these undercut gears. The ability to use different tooth counts with the same center-center distance looks like a huge advantage though, especially in the tooth range for pinions. (fun fact: you derailed a recent project of mine with this revelation)

All of the Versaplanetary gears have addendum modification to minimize the planetary backlash and increase the strength as much as possible.

Just making sure: is this something on the new models only? Any compatibility issues with combining stages from last year with stages from this year?


BTW, I appreciate the openness to questions and details from the vexpro guys; it gives me a strong urge to buy your stuff. Good business model.

[JB]

Will the standard 2 cim ball shifter be given the optional lower and 3rd stages seen on the 3 cim version? Also has the bearing blocks / chain tensioning device for the versa frame been placed on the website? I have not be able to locate them.

[AlecS]

Also has the bearing blocks / chain tensioning device for the versa frame been placed on the website? I have not be able to locate them.

Yes the Versa-Block and CAM can be found under /VEXpro/WCP/versachassis, here (http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexpro/west-coast-products/versachassis.html)

[DampRobot]

Will the standard 2 cim ball shifter be given the optional lower and 3rd stages seen on the 3 cim version? Also has the bearing blocks / chain tensioning device for the versa frame been placed on the website? I have not be able to locate them.

It looks like they're being called VersaBlocks. You can see a pic of them by mousing over them on the VP website (http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexpro/west-coast-products/versachassis.html) or on the WCP website (http://www.wcproducts.net/217-3432/).

EDIT: Oops, got beaten to it.

[RonnieS]

Does anyone know if the 4 "center" wheels will have a 1/8" inch drop in a 8 wheel drive configuration??

[AlecS]

Does anyone know if the 4 "center" wheels will have a 1/8" inch drop in a 8 wheel drive configuration??

Yes, each Versa-Block has a 1/16" offset built into it, which is consistent with the notch on the top of the block. By orienting the blocks, you can achieve a 1/8" drop in a 6wd, 8wd, or 10wd.

In a typical 8wd, you would position the 4 outer wheels with the notch down, and 4 inner wheels with the notch raised.

[RonnieS]

Yes, each Versa-Block has a 1/16" offset built into it, which is consistent with the notch on the top of the block. By orienting the blocks, you can achieve a 1/8" drop in a 6wd, 8wd, or 10wd.

In a typical 8wd, you would position the 4 outer wheels with the notch down, and 4 inner wheels with the notch raised.

Thank you for clearing that up.
Are there pre-drilled holes in the outer walls for the different drive train configurations like 6 wheel, 8 wheel, etc?

[geomapguy]

Are the versa planetary base models 1:1 ratios??

The $29.99 option
http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexpro/gears-and-gearboxes/versaplanetary.html

[AlecS]

Are there pre-drilled holes in the outer walls for the different drive train configurations like 6 wheel, 8 wheel, etc?

No, the VersaFrame 2"x1" tubing does not have pre-drilled holes in the sides, there were simply too many possible drivetrain configurations to account for all of them with one pre-drilled tube.

The assembly instructions, coming soon, will detail the specifics of creating the holes in the tube for wheels. The general idea though, is that the hole can be very rough, all it needs to do is provide clearance for the shaft.

At WCP we used a 1.25" hole-saw to make all of the holes, using a drill-press.

[RonnieS]

No, the VersaFrame 2"x1" tubing does not have pre-drilled holes in the sides, there were simply too many possible drivetrain configurations to account for all of them with one pre-drilled tube.

The assembly instructions, coming soon, will detail the specifics of creating the holes in the tube for wheels. The general idea though, is that the hole can be very rough, all it needs to do is provide clearance for the shaft.

At WCP we used a 1.25" hole-saw to make all of the holes, using a drill-press.

So all the stress is being put on those blocks which are attached to the 1x2 correct?

[AlecS]

So all the stress is being put on those blocks which are attached to the 1x2 correct?

Correct, the bearings are held entirely in the Versa-Block, so the wheel load is distributed evenly all along the top and bottom of the tube where it is clamped. The Versa-Block is by design, extremely robust, and the bearings are held .25" out from the tube, putting even less stress on the shaft/bearings then if the bearings were held inside the tube.

[Paul Copioli]

Are the versa planetary base models 1:1 ratios??

The $29.99 option
http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexpro/gears-and-gearboxes/versaplanetary.html


Yes. All of the base models have the input housing + output housing & shaft + motor mounting kit (with new clamping screw and plastic motor plates). This is what many teams used last year as their 1:1 gearboxes for shooters.

S_forbes,

The planetary gears have had the profile shift since the beginning. The gears from this year and last year are completely interchangeable. On the 10:1 gearbox, if there was no profile shift, then the rated load would be significantly reduced. The small pinion on the 10:1 gear stage has the most profile shift of any of our gears.

[RonnieS]

Correct, the bearings are held entirely in the Versa-Block, so the wheel load is distributed evenly all along the top and bottom of the tube where it is clamped. The Versa-Block is by design, extremely robust, and the bearings are held .25" out from the tube, putting even less stress on the shaft/bearings then if the bearings were held inside the tube.

Sweet! Idk if its just me but in the picture on the WCP website, the 3 cim shifter has a internal shaft but the 2 cim shifter is shown with the external shaft. How will this work with the alignment of the sprokets??

[Thad House]

Any reason why the 18 tooth gears are $9,999?

Everything looks awesome here. The only thing is that the WCP gearboxes are not going to ship until the 15th. Is there a specific part that is causing them to be delayed that late?

[AlecS]

Idk if its just me but in the picture on the WCP website, the 3 cim shifter has a internal shaft but the 2 cim shifter is shown with the external shaft. How will this work with the alignment of the sprokets??

What's actually going on is there are two different types to each WCP transmission. Standard, which the 2 CIM Shifter is shown as, is shorter and doesn't have sprockets or a bearing. Then there is the WCD, which is longer, and includes space for two sprockets and the bearing block. The overall shaft length for both is the same.

The image for the 2 CIM Shifter is currently a Standard, and the 3 CIM shows the WCD+PTO model, but both transmissions are available in either configuration. We are working on getting images of all different configurations up on our website.

Hopefully this is what you were refering too?

[RonnieS]

What's actually going on is there are two different types to each WCP transmission. Standard, which the 2 CIM Shifter is shown as, is shorter and doesn't have sprockets or a bearing. Then there is the WCD, which is longer, and includes two sprockets and the bearing block. The overall shaft length for both is the same.

The image for the 2 CIM Shifter is currently a Standard, and the 3 CIM shows the WCD+PTO model, but both transmissions are available in either configuration. We are working on getting images of all different configurations up on our website.

Hopefully this is what you were refering too?

Yes, thank you for clearing this up.

[Andrew Lawrence]

Alec, if I ordered the WCP 3 CIM DOG Shifter, would it still have the plates of the PTO transmission, or would it be the plates of the 3 CIM SS just with a shifting shaft in there as well?

[Paul Copioli]

Alec, if I ordered the WCP 3 CIM DOG Shifter, would it still have the plates of the PTO transmission, or would it be the plates of the 3 CIM SS just with a shifting shaft in there as well?

The plates for the WCP PTO transmission are the same plates as the WCP 3 CIM shifters. When you purchase a WCP 3 CIM Shifter, you get the plates necessary to do a PTO. Please note that only the WCD version of the 3 CIM shifter supports the PTO option.

[RonnieS]

The plates for the WCP PTO transmission are the same plates as the WCP 3 CIM shifters. When you purchase a WCP 3 CIM Shifter, you get the plates necessary to do a PTO. Please note that only the WCD version of the 3 CIM shifter supports the PTO option.

So there would be no PTO on the 2 cim shifter. That clears up a lot.

[Cory]

11 tooth pinion with the same pitch circle diameter as a 12 tooth pinion? Sounds like dark magic to me.

We discovered these three years ago and have been referring to them as the "tricky trickster" pinions ever since. They are fantastic for having multiple options for top speeds in a drive gearbox without having to modify anything.

[mman1506]

Will the versaDog be available on its own?

[Answer42]

A COTS 3 pound PTO gearbox. FRC certainly has come a long way.It used to be only the top 1% of teams could pull something like that off.

[RonnieS]

Does anyone know how they plan on mounting the transmissions to the versa chassis? Is it something they will have a mounting plate for or will we be responsible for however we want to mount them?

[Sparky3D]

Does anyone know how they plan on mounting the transmissions to the versa chassis? Is it something they will have a mounting plate for or will we be responsible for however we want to mount them?

I'm hoping that Vex/WCP will elaborate on this as well. After looking at the pictures and release video, it looks like they drilled holes in the sides of the frame rails and face mounted them, but I'm hoping there's more to it than that. Trying to get the mounting holes properly aligned with just "a saw and a drill" would be rather difficult. :confused:

[RonnieS]

I'm hoping that Vex/WCP will elaborate on this as well. After looking at the pictures and release video, it looks like they drilled holes in the sides of the frame rails and face mounted them, but I'm hoping there's more to it than that. Trying to get the mounting holes properly aligned with just "a saw and a drill" would be rather difficult. :confused:

That is where I was getting at. They said a drill and wrench so we might have to wait till the manual is published to see what they have planned. For a lot of teams that would be rather difficult but the good part is that hopefully as long as you can get it fairly square and the flush mount on the face of the shifters to the 1x2 face then the versa blocks will automatically put your sprockets in line and allow you to still have a decent drive line. That is if they designed them to be offset the same...I assume they did:)

[Akash Rastogi]

Does anyone know how they plan on mounting the transmissions to the versa chassis? Is it something they will have a mounting plate for or will we be responsible for however we want to mount them?

On a typical WCD, you use the bearing block to bolt and clamp the gearbox to the drive rail. Most teams also utilize the bottom standoffs to bolt though one face of the tubing and the gearbox. Not sure if those bolt hole dimensions have been standardized or not.

If those holes aren't provided, you could essentially mount the front plate of the gearbox to the tubing using the versablock, and then just drill through the standoff holes in the faceplate. Wouldn't be too difficult as long as the versablock keeps the plate aligned.

[Brian Selle]

Does anyone know how they plan on mounting the transmissions to the versa chassis? Is it something they will have a mounting plate for or will we be responsible for however we want to mount them?

It appears that they attach to the VersaBlock which is clamped securely over the tubing. The only hole you would have to drill is the clearance hole for the hex shaft. You could use a step drill to bore an oversized hole to allow for chain/belt tensioning on the end blocks.

[RonnieS]

It appears that they attach to the VersaBlock which is clamped securely over the tubing. The only hole you would have to drill is the clearance hole for the hex shaft. You could use a step drill to bore an oversized hole to allow for chain/belt tensioning on the end blocks.

They are planning to put the entire shifter on the versa block...? That doesn't seem like the best idea, not saying they are not strong enough but doesn't seem like a rock solid idea to me. Please share ideas on this.

[AdamHeard]

They are planning to put the entire shifter on the versa block...? That doesn't seem like the best idea, not saying they are not strong enough but doesn't seem like a rock solid idea to me. Please share ideas on this.

That would be plenty strong if bolted up right.

Adding two outer bolts by match drilling would beef it up, but that versablock clamping the frame is a serious joint.

[sdcantrell56]

Could you guys provide some of the information pertaining to HTD versus GT2 specifically in ratcheting performance? I tried finding data to back up the claim of HTD being better for rapid direction changes and can't find anything to substantiate this.

[Ben Martin]

Thank you everyone at Vex Robotics/IFI for introducing all of these new products, it is evident that you really listened to everyone's feedback and have produced a great suite of products to meet everyone's needs. 225 is already working on our pre-kickoff purchase list.

[Alpha Beta]

A COTS 3 pound PTO gearbox. FRC certainly has come a long way.It used to be only the top 1% of teams could pull something like that off.

We do not know the rules for 2014, so I'll ask this question in reference to last year. Would the PTO gear box from WCP have been legal in 2013? The gear box without pneumatic cylinders is around $350. With both cylinders it's $430-ish. You can purchase the gear box without them, but it won't function. Of course the same is true for motors and pinions. If you purchased the full assembly with pneumatics, motors and pinions for just over $525 would it have been legal?

4.1.3.2 R12
No individual item shall have a value that exceeds $400 USD. The total cost of COMPONENTS purchased in bulk may
exceed $400 as long as the cost of an individual COMPONENT does not exceed $400.

4.1.3.5 R15
If a COTS item is part of a modular system that can be assembled in several possible configurations, then each
individual module must fit within the price constraints defined in R12.
If the modules are designed to assemble into a single configuration, and the assembly is functional in only that
configuration, then the total cost of the complete assembly including all modules must fit within the price constraints
defined in R12.

In summary, if a VENDOR sells a system or a kit, a team must use the entire system/kit
Fair Market Value and not the value of its COMPONENT pieces.

Example1: VENDOR A sells a gearbox that can be used with a number of different gear sets, and can mate with two different motors they sell. A team purchases the gearbox, a
gear set, and a motor (which are not offered together as an assembly or kit), then
assembles them together. Each part is treated separately for the purpose of BOM
costing, since the purchased pieces can each be used in various configurations.

Example2: VENDOR B sells a robotic arm assembly that the team wants to use.
However, it costs $700, so they cannot use it. The Vendor sells the “hand”, “wrist” and
“arm” as separate assemblies, for $200 each. A team wishes to purchase the three
components separately, then reassemble them. This would not be legal, as they are
really buying and using the entire assembly, which has a Fair Market Value of $700

PS. If FIRST had a goal of more teams doing their own design work they could lower the $400 limit. If they wanted to lessen the amount of design work they could raise it instead.

[Racer26]

I agree it starts to get into a grey area on the legality. IMO, I would argue that the cylinders are a separate entity. You can use them on their own for other purposes. Presumably there is some way you could lock the transmission into one gear only, so I don't think the cylinders should count as part of the transmission's BOM cost.

[AdamHeard]

I can't seem to find a CAD file for the versablocks on either site, has anyone found this?

[AlecS]

I can't seem to find a CAD file for the versablocks on either site, has anyone found this?

Oops. It's up on our site now on the Versa-Block page, here (http://www.wcproducts.net/217-3432/)

[Cory]

We do not know the rules for 2014, so I'll ask this question in reference to last year. Would the PTO gear box from WCP have been legal in 2013? The gear box without pneumatic cylinders is around $350. With both cylinders it's $430-ish. You can purchase the gear box without them, but it won't function. Of course the same is true for motors and pinions. If you purchased the full assembly with pneumatics, motors and pinions for just over $525 would it have been legal?





PS. If FIRST had a goal of more teams doing their own design work they could lower the $400 limit. If they wanted to lessen the amount of design work they could raise it instead.

If VEX/WCP sold a $399 transmission with two CIM motors attached to it at a cost of $457, would you think that it violates the single component under $400 rule?

That's how I'd look at it. The piston is an externally attached COTS item that is being included for your convenience.

[Akash Rastogi]

Thank you everyone at Vex Robotics/IFI for introducing all of these new products

And West Coast Products :)

[Ben Martin]

And West Coast Products :)

West Coast Products too! I haven't purchased from you guys before, I might have to give some of your items a try this year.

[Jon Stratis]

We do not know the rules for 2014, so I'll ask this question in reference to last year. Would the PTO gear box from WCP have been legal in 2013? The gear box without pneumatic cylinders is around $350. With both cylinders it's $430-ish. You can purchase the gear box without them, but it won't function. Of course the same is true for motors and pinions. If you purchased the full assembly with pneumatics, motors and pinions for just over $525 would it have been legal?





PS. If FIRST had a goal of more teams doing their own design work they could lower the $400 limit. If they wanted to lessen the amount of design work they could raise it instead.

The part that makes it legal is that the PTO is an add-on to an already, independently functional part. The gearbox can be used without the PTO and be fully functional So can the pneumatic cylinders. 2 of the 3 modules we're talking about (pneumatics, PTO, and gearbox) are usable in multiple configurations, so I don't think it falls into the trap of "modules are designed to assemble into a single configuration, and the assembly is functional in only that configuration"

[JVN]

Could you guys provide some of the information pertaining to HTD versus GT2 specifically in ratcheting performance? I tried finding data to back up the claim of HTD being better for rapid direction changes and can't find anything to substantiate this.

Hi Sean,
Unfortunately, I don't have a data sheet to back this up. We spoke directly with a few belt manufacturers, off the record on this topic.

Of course those users who would prefer GT2 belts can purchase them from any number of suppliers. VEXpro has chosen HTD based on the feedback we received, and some simple preliminary testing.

If you have any concerns, feel free to email prosupport@vex.com to discuss further.

-John

[Andrew Lawrence]

Could you guys provide some of the information pertaining to HTD versus GT2 specifically in ratcheting performance? I tried finding data to back up the claim of HTD being better for rapid direction changes and can't find anything to substantiate this.

While I don't have numbers to back this up, 256 made a belt drive in the offseason and tried out both HTD and GT2 belts and pulleys, and while the GT2 ratcheted when we went full forward to full reverse, the HTD stayed strong and kept its hold on the drive. I would definitely go with HTD again.

[JVN]

We do not know the rules for 2014, so I'll ask this question in reference to last year. Would the PTO gear box from WCP have been legal in 2013? The gear box without pneumatic cylinders is around $350. With both cylinders it's $430-ish. You can purchase the gear box without them, but it won't function. Of course the same is true for motors and pinions. If you purchased the full assembly with pneumatics, motors and pinions for just over $525 would it have been legal?





PS. If FIRST had a goal of more teams doing their own design work they could lower the $400 limit. If they wanted to lessen the amount of design work they could raise it instead.

Alpha Beta,
Good question. Of course -- we cannot comment on 2014 legality, but I appreciate your question was asked in reference to the 2013 rules:

The PTO shaft and associated components (VersaDog, etc) are easy to use by themselves without purchase of the entire WCD Dual Speed Gearbox. These items are sold as part of the 217-3636 kit for $74.99:
http://www.wcproducts.net/wcp-shifter-components/

Based on our interpretation of the 2013 rules, we believe these would have been legal for use last season, if they were around then. :)

-John

[Akash Rastogi]

I thought the tiny new hex broached VersaWheel was pretty cool. What led you guys to making it 3.25" in diameter? I'm glad it is available!

[tim-tim]

I thought the tiny new hex broached VersaWheel was pretty cool. What led you guys to making it 3.25" in diameter? I'm glad it is available!

So they can continue to make their drive modules lighter and more compact?

[Chris is me]

While I don't have numbers to back this up, 256 made a belt drive in the offseason and tried out both HTD and GT2 belts and pulleys, and while the GT2 ratcheted when we went full forward to full reverse, the HTD stayed strong and kept its hold on the drive. I would definitely go with HTD again.

Could you post more information about your setup? Tooth count of both systems, pulley material, use of tensioners vs exact center, etc. We've had almost the exact opposite experience, but our experience is probably possibly user error rather than an accurate comparison.

[Jared Russell]

Given that HTD is at this point a de-facto standard while GT2 is a proprietary profile*, I don't think a lot of belt manufacturers would want to go on the record with an unbiased recommendation. Gates is going to say that GT2 is the way to go, while everyone else will say HTD.

In reality, a wise designer would probably want to have enough of a safety margin that either profile would not ratchet.

* A brief Google search couldn't confirm or deny this, but it is my recollection. I'm sure that CD will correct my statement if it is incorrect :)

[Akash Rastogi]

So they can continue to make their drive modules lighter and more compact?

I meant more like is it intended for drive systems, or can we expect a line of smaller wheels coming out soon to compete with Banebots wheels for grippers and intakes and such. If so, that would be very cool.

[lnex1357]

In reality, a wise designer would probably want to have enough of a safety margin that either profile would not ratchet.

Jared,

I would agree with your statement completely. We on 2168 used the GT2 extruded stock and machined our own press fit colson hubs to drive GT2 15mm belts. We designed our wheel spacing for exact C-C distances for belt lengths supplied by SDP-si.

After about 60 hours of vigours driver practice including pushing matches practicing defense before bag and 7 competitions (on and off season), we have been still using the same exact belts in practice all fall and under finger pressure the belts will stretch no more than a .5 inches. Also despite our best efforts we have never produced the "ratcheting" effect.

We also used HTD back in 2012 for our shooter, and again designed with the proper C-C distances for a specific belt size, and once again after many hours of use, never had an issue with ratcheting. That robot was in a fundraiser last week with same belt and still shoots like a charm. :-)

In short, based on our experience, I would agree with JVN that both will do the job, just fine. But of course if you have the option you should buy HTD ;-)

[AdamHeard]

I would wager they are actually making the claim that HTD is stronger than the traditional trapezoidal tooth, and not gt2. This is just conjecture though.

EDIT: I'm wrong, rewatched video. He was referring to gt2.

[Andrew Lawrence]

Could you post more information about your setup? Tooth count of both systems, pulley material, use of tensioners vs exact center, etc. We've had almost the exact opposite experience, but our experience is probably possibly user error rather than an accurate comparison.

We ran a 6wd WCD in the fall to test new ideas for the 2014 season, especially play around with belts. All pulleys had 24 teeth and were made of aluminum pulley stock. We had a tensioning system in place, but rarely had to tension after putting the belts on. It should be made to note that during these tests we added weight to our robot to reach 120 lbs so we could determine a factor of safety for each type of belt. During these weighted tests, we ran full forward, full backward, into walls, and rapid spin turns and reversing spin directions to test the belt reaction. While under lower weight and low risk driving both belts performed equally, however upon testing the heavier robot and heavier driving we found the GT2 belt start to ratchet, while the HTD belt stayed in place.

[Chris is me]

We ran a 6wd WCD in the fall to test new ideas for the 2014 season, especially play around with belts. All pulleys had 24 teeth and were made of aluminum pulley stock. We had a tensioning system in place, but rarely had to tension after putting the belts on. It should be made to note that during these tests we added weight to our robot to reach 120 lbs so we could determine a factor of safety for each type of belt. During these weighted tests, we ran full forward, full backward, into walls, and rapid spin turns and reversing spin directions to test the belt reaction. While under lower weight and low risk driving both belts performed equally, however upon testing the heavier robot and heavier driving we found the GT2 belt start to ratchet, while the HTD belt stayed in place.

Did you adjust tension between belt changes?

What width were the belts?

Did you use different pulleys or the same type? Which kind?

[Andrew Lawrence]

Did you adjust tension between belt changes?

What width were the belts?

Did you use different pulleys or the same type? Which kind?

The tension was the same on both HTD and GT2, and to compensate for any discrepancies we tried both belts multiple times, switching out between rounds.

The belts were 9mm wide, 5mm pitch.

All pulleys were the same aluminum 24 tooth cut from the same stock, all the same width.

[Chris is me]

All pulleys were the same aluminum 24 tooth cut from the same stock, all the same width.

GT2 pulley stock is different than HTD pulley stock, which is different than regular timing belt stock. I don't think it's fair to compare belt performance when at least one of the belts is running on a pulley it wasn't designed to run on.

[AdamHeard]

GT2 pulley stock is different than HTD pulley stock, which is different than regular timing belt stock. I don't think it's fair to compare belt performance when at least one of the belts is running on a pulley it wasn't designed to run on.

These two links help compare that a little bit;
http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=3117&location_id=3881
http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=3119&location_id=3881

[sdcantrell56]

The tension was the same on both HTD and GT2, and to compensate for any discrepancies we tried both belts multiple times, switching out between rounds.

The belts were 9mm wide, 5mm pitch.

All pulleys were the same aluminum 24 tooth cut from the same stock, all the same width.

I'm going to guess the pulley stock was HTD?

[Patrick Flynn]

Hi Sean,
Unfortunately, I don't have a data sheet to back this up. We spoke directly with a few belt manufacturers, off the record on this topic.

Of course those users who would prefer GT2 belts can purchase them from any number of suppliers. VEXpro has chosen HTD based on the feedback we received, and some simple preliminary testing.

If you have any concerns, feel free to email prosupport@vex.com to discuss further.

-John

I've done some searching on this claim and it seems difficult to directly find information to back it up, but using the information here, http://www.transdev.co.uk/catalogues/polyurethane/belt_pretension.pdf

And making the assuming that a lower required belt preload for the same transmitted power would mean that the belt would be less likely to ratchet.
This is a pretty safe assumption because the preload is the belt tension needed to maintain contact given a transmitted power so lower preload better the teeth are at self maintaining contact.

FP =[( P*k*10^5)/(n*d0)]+f0*b*(It/Lb)


Now assuiming that all factors are the same except k and f0, these are the properties derived from the belt tooth structure.

Looking on the website and at the offered belt profiles they do not offer exactly GT2 and HTD belts so i picked similar profiles, XL for GT2 and 5M for HTD.
Profiles can be seen here, http://www.transdev.co.uk/pages/belts/polychloroprene/polychloroprene_main.htm

P=10Kw
n=1000rpm
d0=10mm
b=5mm
It=29.4mm
Lb=1

[GT2~XL] Fp=1051.45
[HTD~5M] Fp=429.4



This would support the claim that a HTD profile would be much less likely to ratchet as it requires a lower preload to maintain tooth contact at a given transmitted load.

[apples000]

A few of the cad models are messed up. The color of the models was a nice addition, but the wrong parts are used sometimes, especially in the shafts for the gearboxes. Often times they are too long and go through a motor. See the 3 CIM PTO box.

I'm also confused by the wcp 3 cim pto design. It's much thicker than it needs to be. To begin with, the distance the shifting dog travels is about twice what it needs to be. A quick reconfigure of the design let me slim the gearbox down by 1.25". There's a ton of wasted space. Also, the outer plate needs to hold 3 bearings, 4 standoff mounts, and 4 cylinder mounts, yet it has spots for mounting the CIMS. Again, this could be make significantly smaller.

I'll post a picture of what i'm talking about in an hour or so.

[Steven Donow]

A few of the cad models are messed up. The color of the models was a nice addition, but the wrong parts are used sometimes, especially in the shafts for the gearboxes. Often times they are too long and go through a motor. See the 3 CIM PTO box.

I'm also confused by the wcp 3 cim pto design. It's much thicker than it needs to be. To begin with, the distance the shifting dog travels is about twice what it needs to be. A quick reconfigure of the design let me slim the gearbox down by 1.25". There's a ton of wasted space. Also, the outer plate needs to hold 3 bearings, 4 standoff mounts, and 4 cylinder mounts, yet it has spots for mounting the CIMS. Again, this could be make significantly smaller.

I'll post a picture of what i'm talking about in an hour or so.

If I'm not mistaken, the distance between the gear and the PTO is probably to allow versatility in adding Versahubs/Versapulleys; ie, you're not restricted to using pulleys of a certain thickness/can use multiple pulleys/sprockets.

[Akash Rastogi]

A few of the cad models are messed up. The color of the models was a nice addition, but the wrong parts are used sometimes, especially in the shafts for the gearboxes. Often times they are too long and go through a motor. See the 3 CIM PTO box.

I'm also confused by the wcp 3 cim pto design. It's much thicker than it needs to be. To begin with, the distance the shifting dog travels is about twice what it needs to be. A quick reconfigure of the design let me slim the gearbox down by 1.25". There's a ton of wasted space. Also, the outer plate needs to hold 3 bearings, 4 standoff mounts, and 4 cylinder mounts, yet it has spots for mounting the CIMS. Again, this could be make significantly smaller.

I'll post a picture of what i'm talking about in an hour or so.

Are you talking about the space that holds sprockets for chain or belts, or something else? Plus, what Steven said.

Parallel symmetrical plates allow for quicker and more efficient fabrication, I would imagine.

[apples000]

Here's what I'm talking about. I got the gearbox slimmer by 1" (3.5" to 2.5"), and switched the standoffs to screws in the CIM mounting holes. My design doesn't have bearings, but you get the idea.

[Akash Rastogi]

Here's what I'm talking about. I got the gearbox slimmer by 1" (3.5" to 2.5"), and switched the standoffs to screws in the CIM mounting holes. My design doesn't have bearings, but you get the idea.

lol

I think you ought to read the product description again. That configuration is intended for a typical WCD setup. That is why there is a space for your sprockets.

:)


.

[Aren_Hill]

A few of the cad models are messed up. The color of the models was a nice addition, but the wrong parts are used sometimes, especially in the shafts for the gearboxes. Often times they are too long and go through a motor. See the 3 CIM PTO box.

I'm also confused by the wcp 3 cim pto design. It's much thicker than it needs to be. To begin with, the distance the shifting dog travels is about twice what it needs to be. A quick reconfigure of the design let me slim the gearbox down by 1.25". There's a ton of wasted space. Also, the outer plate needs to hold 3 bearings, 4 standoff mounts, and 4 cylinder mounts, yet it has spots for mounting the CIMS. Again, this could be make significantly smaller.

I'll post a picture of what i'm talking about in an hour or so.

The PTO Kit reuses many existing parts, including the main output shaft, this would typically be cut off where it meets the opposite plate. Rather than creating slightly tweaked versions of a bunch of existing parts we chose to repurpose existing things.

Also space is required for the gear/sprocket/pulley attached to the Versadog, Hence why this kit is listed as an option to only work with the WCD version of the 3 CIM DS.

[apples000]

The PTO Kit reuses many existing parts, including the main output shaft, this would typically be cut off where it meets the opposite plate. Rather than creating slightly tweaked versions of a bunch of existing parts we chose to repurpose existing things.

Also space is required for the gear/sprocket/pulley attached to the Versadog, Hence why this kit is listed as an option to only work with the WCD version of the 3 CIM DS.

Yup, my bad. I see what you mean about space for the plate sprockets. That being said, if you used a little sprocket that had the dog pattern in it, you could probably get away with this.

[AdamHeard]

Yup, my bad. I see what you mean about space for the plate sprockets. That being said, if you used a little sprocket that had the dog pattern in it, you could probably get away with this.

That limits the versatility of it.

When selling a COTS part you have a different set of goals than a team.

It's not surprising that someone could make a 3 CIM w/ PTO gearbox smaller and lighter than vex, but it will likely only fit a few situations. Vex/WCP must sell a gearbox that will work for as many as possible. I feel they've done a great job o this.

[apples000]

That limits the versatility of it.

When selling a COTS part you have a different set of goals than a team.

It's not surprising that someone could make a 3 CIM w/ PTO gearbox smaller and lighter than vex, but it will likely only fit a few situations. Vex/WCP must sell a gearbox that will work for as many as possible. I feel they've done a great job o this.

You're right. I just came from designing a 3 CIM PTO gearbox with a 22 tooth pulley for the PTO, so I was comparing with that, but I'd be willing to bet that 90% of teams purchasing that gearbox will end up using some type of versa hub product with it.

[Boe]

So i was looking at the new wcp 3 cim (not the ball shifter) I saw that the two lower cims both drive one gear and then the third (top) cim drives the same gear but with a gear between, wouldnt this mean that the top cim is contributing less/more then the other two?

[AlecS]

So i was looking at the new wcp 3 cim (not the ball shifter) I saw that the two lower cims both drive one gear and then the third (top) cim drives the same gear but with a gear between, wouldnt this mean that the top cim is contributing less/more then the other two?

No, the presence of the 30t idler does not affect the reduction or the overall contribution of the top CIM. See below,

2 CIM input ratio,
42 / 14 = 3

3rd CIM input ratio.
(30/14)*(42/30) = 3

At the 42t input gear, all of the CIM's have gone through the same reduction.

Hopefully this clears things up.

[cadandcookies]

Will CAD models be released for the traction wheel traction tires? I know my team is looking at those as an alternative to tread.

[AlecS]

Will CAD models be released for the traction wheel traction tires? I know my team is looking at those as an alternative to tread.

Fixed, the CAD is now available here (http://www.wcproducts.net/traction-tire/).

[cadandcookies]

Fixed, the CAD is now available here (http://www.wcproducts.net/traction-tire/).

Thank you!

[Oblarg]

The VersaWheel page doesn't list a weight for either of the wheels; anyone know what the weight is?

[AlecS]

The VersaWheel page doesn't list a weight for either of the wheels; anyone know what the weight is?

The weights listed here (http://www.wcproducts.net/versawheel) , when you select a wheel, are accurate to the CAD models. We will add the weights to the specs list for easier viewing shortly.

[z_beeblebrox]

I' getting a 404 clicking the link in your post.

[AlecS]

I' getting a 404 clicking the link in your post.
Fixed.

[BBray_T1296]

Just a question specifically about the WCD gearbox with PTO offered a VexPro, from someone who has never used a PTO before.

What if you want to operate the PTO without running the wheels? I would think you would want to run the PTO while not moving in many more situations than you would want to while rolling.
Studying the CAD, I am fairly certain this is not possible.

[smistthegreat]

Just a question specifically about the WCD gearbox with PTO offered a VexPro, from someone who has never used a PTO before.

What if you want to operate the PTO without running the wheels? I would think you would want to run the PTO while not moving in many more situations than you would want to while rolling.
Studying the CAD, I am fairly certain this is not possible.

I'm not sure if this was intended with the design, but you should be able to find a 3-position cylinder to put on the bottom dog, letting you shift the drivetrain into a neutral gear (with the dog disengaged, between the two dog gears) when you want to engage the PTO.

[BBray_T1296]

I'm not sure if this was intended with the design, but you should be able to find a 3-position cylinder to put on the bottom dog, letting you shift the drivetrain into a neutral gear (with the dog disengaged, between the two dog gears) when you want to engage the PTO.

Oh yeah! I just remembered another thread wondering if there was a neutral for the ballshifter, and there was a link to the piston Im sure you are talking about. Thanks

[brianbond]

Killer products. Can wait to get my hands on some of them!

[s_forbes]

Some clarification if possible:

The difference between gears with versakey option and those without - does this refer to just the female versakey pattern in each gear? Do the non-versakey gears still come with the bolt pattern?

Also, I see two availability options: "In stock" and "Ships before kickoff". How long would it take each of these to ship if I ordered today?

http://i.imgur.com/9ajaKBp.png

[cadandcookies]

Do we have an ETA on documentation for the 3-CIM gearbox? I'm trying to figue our how to mount one to a piece of channel and as far as I can tell the logical thing (using the hexagonal home pattern) won't work with any standard screw cap size. Anyone know how this is supposed to work?

Note: I know I'm going to feel stupid after somebody points out that some specific holes are for mounting it in a way that I should have already thought of.

EDIT: Also, though that tire model works, it looks like it's more of a stand-in than an actual model for the 1/2" segments of Traction Tire that appear on the website. Will the actual traction tire models be released?

[AndreaV]

Will WCP continue to sell colsons in the future? Will Vex be stocking colson wheels at their distribution centers next season?

Apart from the new 3.25" versawheel, are there any plans to make wheels cheaper/easier to interface with 1/2 hex? right now the solution seems to be either two 1/2" hex versahub for @18/wheel, or a 1/2" versahub and a bearing for $14/wheel. 3.25" leaves you with little ground clearance, right now the best options seems to be 4" colsons, with 4" stealth wheels being the cheaper option.

[Travis Schuh]

Hi Sean,
Unfortunately, I don't have a data sheet to back this up. We spoke directly with a few belt manufacturers, off the record on this topic.

Of course those users who would prefer GT2 belts can purchase them from any number of suppliers. VEXpro has chosen HTD based on the feedback we received, and some simple preliminary testing.

If you have any concerns, feel free to email prosupport@vex.com to discuss further.

-John

Given that HTD is at this point a de-facto standard while GT2 is a proprietary profile*, I don't think a lot of belt manufacturers would want to go on the record with an unbiased recommendation. Gates is going to say that GT2 is the way to go, while everyone else will say HTD.

In reality, a wise designer would probably want to have enough of a safety margin that either profile would not ratchet.

* A brief Google search couldn't confirm or deny this, but it is my recollection. I'm sure that CD will correct my statement if it is incorrect :)

Everything I have seen in the Gates literature showes the GT2 profile ahead of HTD. Check out page 10 of the Gates Light Power and Precision manual (http://www.gates.com/catalogs/file_display.cfm?file=PT_GatesLPPdesignManual_2005 .pdf&thisPath=gates%5Ccatalogs). This shows the ratcheting torque of 5mm GT2 and HTD being evenly matched across a range of tensions tested at 2300 RPM (roughly 3X FRC drive train speeds), with GT2 being slightly better than HTD (<5% and decreases as tension increases).

The main advantage as I see it of GT2 over HTD is reduced backlash. In a light load test condition (as defined by Gates), the backlash on 3mm GT2 is 1/3 that of 3mm HTD (.012" vs .030"). This is because the GT2 profile is designed to have less clearance than the HTD profile.

Given the small performance difference as reported by Gates at the 5mm size, the FRC application, and the vendor feedback that Vex Pro got, HTD seems a reasonable choice. I look forward to having more timing belt and pulley sources. We will have to look into it more, but it looks like this offering may enable us to make our wheel modules using all Vex Pro products.

-Travis

[R.C.]

I'm not sure if this was intended with the design, but you should be able to find a 3-position cylinder to put on the bottom dog, letting you shift the drivetrain into a neutral gear (with the dog disengaged, between the two dog gears) when you want to engage the PTO.

Oh yeah! I just remembered another thread wondering if there was a neutral for the ballshifter, and there was a link to the piston Im sure you are talking about. Thanks

BBray,

The intent of the product was to allow for a neutral IF teams wanted it.

http://puu.sh/5L9Hb/b016fcbd71.jpg

The cylinder mount allows to teams to use the current SMC pancake cylinder along with the Bimba/Fabco 2 position OR 3 position cylinder.

http://puu.sh/5L9I5/005faa9138.jpg

-RC

[Paul Copioli]

Some clarification if possible:

The difference between gears with versakey option and those without - does this refer to just the female versakey pattern in each gear? Do the non-versakey gears still come with the bolt pattern?

Also, I see two availability options: "In stock" and "Ships before kickoff". How long would it take each of these to ship if I ordered today?

http://i.imgur.com/9ajaKBp.png



If you order the one that says, "in stock" then it will ship same day if ordered before 3pm Central time. The "Ships before Kickoff" items are in the plating process right now and they will ship before January 4th.

Yes, the gears without the Versakey pattern still have the FRC standard mounting hole pattern. We made non-Versakey gears to save teams that don't need the Versakeys some money.

[sdcantrell56]

Everything I have seen in the Gates literature showes the GT2 profile ahead of HTD. Check out page 10 of the Gates Light Power and Precision manual (http://www.gates.com/catalogs/file_display.cfm?file=PT_GatesLPPdesignManual_2005 .pdf&thisPath=gates%5Ccatalogs). This shows the ratcheting torque of 5mm GT2 and HTD being evenly matched across a range of tensions tested at 2300 RPM (roughly 3X FRC drive train speeds), with GT2 being slightly better than HTD (<5% and decreases as tension increases).



That's the literature I found as well. Seems like if backlash isn't a concern, HTD should be fairly interchangeable, but I wouldn't say it is ever better performing than HTD.

[Steven Donow]

Here's something neat that I'd love to see from VEX: JVN's mechanical calculator as some sort of web app.

[Akash Rastogi]

Here's something neat that I'd love to see from VEX: JVN's mechanical calculator as some sort of web app.

And for the sake of convenience: A belt C-C calculator to help select which VEXPro stocked belts and pulleys to buy, right on the VEXPro website. Not hard to find elsewhere, but it'd be great for people who are new to designing for belts.

[DampRobot]

And for the sake of convenience: A belt C-C calculator to help select which VEXPro stocked belts and pulleys to buy, right on the VEXPro website. Not hard to find elsewhere, but it'd be great for people who are new to designing for belts.

Seconded. This would be really, really helpful.

[cadandcookies]

Seconded. This would be really, really helpful.

Especially considering that the SDP/SI calculator doesn't actually have some of the belts that VexPro does.

[AlecS]

Center distance calc now available here (http://www.wcproducts.net/how-to-belts/) and will be on VEXpro's site soon.

Works for any size pulley, and gives out the two nearest VEXpro belt sizes, to the desired center distance. The pulley size also turns bold when you are using a VEXpro pulley. Any box that is white can be edited by the user, boxes that are gray are info from the calculator.

[Akash Rastogi]

Center distance calc now available here (http://www.wcproducts.net/how-to-belts/) and will be on VEXpro's site soon.

Works for any size pulley, and gives out the two nearest VEXpro belt sizes, to the desired center distance. The pulley size also turns bold when you are using a VEXpro pulley. Any box that is white can be edited by the user, boxes that are gray are info from the calculator.

#TeamAlec

Thanks WCP! :)

[DampRobot]

For all those who want to take a quick look at some of the new components without opeing the CAD, here are a few screenshots:

2 motor VersaPlanetary plates:
http://puu.sh/5LVHc.png

CIMile Cuttaway 1:
http://puu.sh/5LW60.png

CIMile Cuttaway 2 (with mega cool output shaft/gear!):
http://puu.sh/5LW8n.png

WCD 3 CIM Ball Shifter:
http://puu.sh/5LYSN.jpg

WCD 3 CIM Ball Shifter Cutaway:
http://puu.sh/5LYVS.png

[Nemo]

I've been playing around with VersaPlanetary CAD models today, and it has been a learning experience. They're really neat little boxes.

What holds a ring gear add-on stage to the new dual input gearbox? The STEP model shows a couple of 10-32 screws sticking out, but there is no threaded 10-32 hole to go into on the ring gear stage. The 10-32 screw would seem to go into the the cutout corners of the ring gear block. Does the ring gear's shoulder press fit into the plastic housing of the dual input?

This picture shows the 10-32 screws sticking out and not connecting to the ring gear. What have I missed?

http://www.nemoquiz.com/DualInput.jpg

I tried rotating the ring gear 90 degrees to use the other holes with 8-32 screws, but it looks like the distance between those 8-32 holes is less than 2", presumably to force people to assemble VersaPlanetary boxes correctly. This picture off the Vex Pro website shows the ring gear in the same orientation as I am trying to assemble it.

http://content.vexrobotics.com/vexpro/images/Tile_GearsNGearboxes.jpg

[Aren_Hill]

I've been playing around with VersaPlanetary CAD models today, and it has been a learning experience. They're really neat little boxes.

What holds a ring gear add-on stage to the new dual input gearbox? The STEP model shows a couple of 10-32 screws sticking out, but there is no threaded 10-32 hole to go into on the ring gear stage. The 10-32 screw would seem to go into the the cutout corners of the ring gear block. Does the ring gear's shoulder press fit into the plastic housing of the dual input?

This picture shows the 10-32 screws sticking out and not connecting to the ring gear. What have I missed?

http://www.nemoquiz.com/DualInput.jpg

Hey Dan,

The casing has a pin in it as well, to lock the ring gear stage from rotating.
This coupled with the 10-32's screwing into the output stage, and the ring piloting, hold the gearbox solidly together.

-Aren

[Nemo]

Hey Dan,

The casing has a pin in it as well, to lock the ring gear stage from rotating.
This coupled with the 10-32's screwing into the output stage, and the ring piloting, hold the gearbox solidly together.

-Aren

Ah. The 10-32 screws go past the ring gear and into the output block. I had myself subconsciously convinced that those were unavailable since those holes are also in use from the other size to mount the gearbox. Thanks.

[Aren_Hill]

The face holes are deep enough we're using them as dual purpose.

-Aren

[ttldomination]

I notice that the Traction Wheels are now available with tread.

Can you guys provide us some details about this tread (COF, etc.). I would also be interested to know why the tread was pulled last year and how this new tread fixes those issues...?

- SUnny G.

[Paul Copioli]

I notice that the Traction Wheels are now available with tread.

Can you guys provide us some details about this tread (COF, etc.). I would also be interested to know why the tread was pulled last year and how this new tread fixes those issues...?

- SUnny G.

The traction tires are 1/2" wide sections of the same rubber used on the VersaWheel DT only slightly softer. CoF with the FRC carpet will be put up on the website in the next few days, but it is similar to Colson Wheels.

The tread was pulled last year because it did not perform to our expectations. While the tires looked great and had very high CoF with the FRC carpet, the rubber was too soft and would peel off of the wheel during turning. Our main goal was to not have to use any sort of fastener to hold this tire on the wheel so after several attempts to fix the problem we decided to scrap the entire design.

This year's tread has an injection molded plastic support ring inside the rubber material to eliminate the possibility of peeling. This tire has great traction and allows you the flexibility to make pretty much any wheel width you want.

Paul

[Ricky Q.]

We've put together this collection of bloopers from the VEXpro Product Unveiling Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cub5oruWA7k

Enjoy!

[DampRobot]

Could someone comment on how much torque the belts components can take? I'm thinking of two applications in particular.

First, if I want to do a WCD with 4" (or even 6") wheels, what is the right toothcount pulley to use, given that I want a reasonable factor of safety? Let's just say that I want to be able to have the robot traction limited (instead of ratcheting limited) when it's reared up on two wheels.

Second, if I use a 60T pulley and a 15mm wide belt, could I use it to raise an arm? What about the shock loads that the arm would see when it changed directions? Would the belt ratchet under those conditions? What if I wanted to raise the robot up on the arm, a'la 1538?

Generally, could you publish some kind of torque ratings for these components?

[magnets]

We've put together this collection of bloopers from the VEXpro Product Unveiling Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cub5oruWA7k

Enjoy!

These are awesome!
"Is that soup port?"
"no, support, my bad."
:D

[MichaelBick]

Would you mind posting CAD of the 18T sprockets please

[Ricky Q.]

Would you mind posting CAD of the 18T sprockets please

Sorry for the delay, that CAD is now posted on the #25 Sprockets page.

Here's a link:

http://content.vexrobotics.com/cad/STEP/217-3488-STEP.zip

Best,
Ricky

[Gary Dillard]

Components for the Versachassis show that the frame won't be shipped until January 10th, and the motion components until January 15th.

http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexpro/structure/versachassis.html

What's up? Is this another Talon fiasco where I won't be able to get spare parts until April? I was pretty excited to add this option to our playlist, doesn't really look like a good choice now.

[ksafin]

Components for the Versachassis show that the frame won't be shipped until January 10th, and the motion components until January 15th.

http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexpro/structure/versachassis.html

What's up? Is this another Talon fiasco where I won't be able to get spare parts until April? I was pretty excited to add this option to our playlist, doesn't really look like a good choice now.

Likewise.

[Ricky Q.]

Components for the Versachassis show that the frame won't be shipped until January 10th, and the motion components until January 15th.

http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexpro/structure/versachassis.html

What's up? Is this another Talon fiasco where I won't be able to get spare parts until April? I was pretty excited to add this option to our playlist, doesn't really look like a good choice now.

We're working through a shipping issue on the frame components right now. They are shipping from our supplier tomorrow and January 10th is a worst-case shipping date from our warehouse.

The motion components have had a January 15th ship date since the product announcement. We're doing all we can to ship them sooner and will get them our ASAP.

We want this stuff in your guys' hands as badly as you do. Thanks for your patience and we apologize for any inconvenience.

Best,
Ricky

[Scoyle]

What is the difference other than price between the 3' 1/2" Hex Stock (217-2753) $11.99 and VersaChassis Hex Shaft (217-3437) other than the price ($9.99)?

[Aren_Hill]

What is the difference other than price between the 3' 1/2" Hex Stock (217-2753) $11.99 and VersaChassis Hex Shaft (217-3437) other than the price ($9.99)?

The VersaChassis HEX shaft is a ready made axle for the VersaChassis system.
If you have lathe capabilities it will be more cost effective to buy the Hex stock. But basic axle functionality is present with just the VersaChassis Hex shaft (snap ring groove, encoder hole, tapped shaft end).

Hope this helps,

-Aren

[Scoyle]

The VersaChassis HEX shaft is a ready made axle for the VersaChassis system.
If you have lathe capabilities it will be more cost effective to buy the Hex stock. But basic axle functionality is present with just the VersaChassis Hex shaft (snap ring groove, encoder hole, tapped shaft end).

Hope this helps,

-Aren

Thanks, that helps a lot.

[mrnoble]

We're working through a shipping issue on the frame components right now. They are shipping from our supplier tomorrow and January 10th is a worst-case shipping date from our warehouse.

The motion components have had a January 15th ship date since the product announcement. We're doing all we can to ship them sooner and will get them our ASAP.

We want this stuff in your guys' hands as badly as you do. Thanks for your patience and we apologize for any inconvenience.

Best,
Ricky

Thank you, Ricky. We know you guys are working hard to get the stuff out to us.

One question: we received a partial shipment, minus the frame components. Will I get a second shipping notification when the frame is shipped?

Thanks again!

[Ricky Q.]

Thank you, Ricky. We know you guys are working hard to get the stuff out to us.

One question: we received a partial shipment, minus the frame components. Will I get a second shipping notification when the frame is shipped?

Thanks again!

Yes, you will receive another notification once the rest of the order ships.

Best,
Ricky

[ksafin]

Our entire order said it shipped, but then if I check tracking it says its 1.00 lbs.

This order is definitely more like 50 lbs. Why does UPS show 1.00? xD

[42!]

Any idea on the current lead time for the 3 cim ball shifter? It says one week right now. Also will WCP be able to keep up with orders this year? The single speed 3 cim gearbox from them seems like a good WCD option to me, but I'm not sure when I'd be able to get it.

[mman1506]

Have you released any information for adapting the 2 CIM ballshifter to the VersaChassis?

[R.C.]

Any idea on the current lead time for the 3 cim ball shifter? It says one week right now. Also will WCP be able to keep up with orders this year? The single speed 3 cim gearbox from them seems like a good WCD option to me, but I'm not sure when I'd be able to get it.

Yes we will be able to. Should be shipping out all our VEXpro items today/tomorrow and you should be seeing all WCP related items shipping out next week.

[Paul Copioli]

Any idea on the current lead time for the 3 cim ball shifter? It says one week right now. Also will WCP be able to keep up with orders this year? The single speed 3 cim gearbox from them seems like a good WCD option to me, but I'm not sure when I'd be able to get it.

All of the components for the 3 CIM Ball shifter are in our assembly facility here in Greenville. They are currently being inspected and kitted. We are pushing to have these shipping this week.

We got started on the manufacturing of the WCP items a little later than we wanted. Both WCP and VEX are pretty particular about design details so we released the drawings to production later than we wanted. The dates on the VEXpro website for the WCP items are still our expected ship dates. Please note that this is an initial inventory problem only. Once the items arrive, WCP, The Robot Space, and VEX will have plenty of inventory for the entire 2014 season.

Have you released any information for adapting the 2 CIM ballshifter to the VersaChassis?

We are working on the application drawings for this and should have them by the weekend.

[Answer42]

All of the components for the 3 CIM Ball shifter are in our assembly facility here in Greenville. They are currently being inspected and kitted. We are pushing to have these shipping this week.

We got started on the manufacturing of the WCP items a little later than we wanted. Both WCP and VEX are pretty particular about design details so we released the drawings to production later than we wanted. The dates on the VEXpro website for the WCP items are still our expected ship dates. Please note that this is an initial inventory problem only. Once the items arrive, WCP, The Robot Space, and VEX will have plenty of inventory for the entire 2014 season.



We are working on the application drawings for this and should have them by the weekend.

Thanks. That's great to hear.

[AustinH]

Minor question on the .500 hex Versahubs... can they be press-fit into Vexpro wheels and other Versahubs designed to take bearings?

[Aren_Hill]

Minor question on the .500 hex Versahubs... can they be press-fit into Vexpro wheels and other Versahubs designed to take bearings?

Yup, the hub diameter of the VersaHub is 1.125", same as the bearings.

-Aren

[Answer42]

Are the wcp gearboxes compatible with any encoder mounts?

[zcohen]

You guys released a teaser to the 2014 drive in a day chassis on twitter earlier this week. Do you have an estimate on when it will be listed for sale?

[R.C.]

Are the wcp gearboxes compatible with any encoder mounts?

The single speed gearboxes accept a s4 encoder on the back.

The dual speeds do not have any encoder mounts. What we prefer in a WCD config is to put the encoder on the wheel shaft. Every VersaShaft for the WCD comes with a 1/4 hole that allows encoder mounting.

I know manuals aren't released ATM. We are trying to have them done this weekend so teams have more information/how tos available to them.

Let me know if you questions.

[Nemo]

You guys released a teaser to the 2014 drive in a day chassis on twitter earlier this week. Do you have an estimate on when it will be listed for sale?

+1

Definitely eager to see CAD, pricing, and estimated ship date on DiaD2014 as we make design decisions. We put together a 2013 DiaD in the off season, and we find it to be very nice.

[Answer42]

The single speed gearboxes accept a s4 encoder on the back.

The dual speeds do not have any encoder mounts. What we prefer in a WCD config is to put the encoder on the wheel shaft. Every VersaShaft for the WCD comes with a 1/4 hole that allows encoder mounting.

I know manuals aren't released ATM. We are trying to have them done this weekend so teams have more information/how tos available to them.

Let me know if you questions.

Thanks so much for your quick answers. It happens that I just did a design with the single speed speed gearbox. So that works just fine.

[mman1506]

All of the components for the 3 CIM Ball shifter are in our assembly facility here in Greenville. They are currently being inspected and kitted. We are pushing to have these shipping this week.

We got started on the manufacturing of the WCP items a little later than we wanted. Both WCP and VEX are pretty particular about design details so we released the drawings to production later than we wanted. The dates on the VEXpro website for the WCP items are still our expected ship dates. Please note that this is an initial inventory problem only. Once the items arrive, WCP, The Robot Space, and VEX will have plenty of inventory for the entire 2014 season.



We are working on the application drawings for this and should have them by the weekend.

Thanks for the prompt reply.

[DampRobot]

Paul, JVN, RC, do you have masses for the 3 CIM Ball Shifter WCD version?

[AlecS]

Paul, JVN, RC, do you have masses for the 3 CIM Ball Shifter WCD version?

3.05 lbs (http://www.wcproducts.net/3cim-ballshifter/)

*For most products on the WCP page, if you configure the product it will update the weight for you

[DampRobot]

Also, how do you use CIM style motors with VersaPlanetaries? I saw that you used them this way in Build Blitz, and that they could be essentially "officially unofficially" used like this in last year's version. Is there any special trick to doing it this year? How do the CIMs mount, etc?

[Nemo]

Also, how do you use CIM style motors with VersaPlanetaries? I saw that you used them this way in Build Blitz, and that they could be essentially "officially unofficially" used like this in last year's version. Is there any special trick to doing it this year? How do the CIMs mount, etc?

I had the same question. Check this out from last year.
http://blog.spectrum3847.org/2013/01/versaplanetary-cimminicim-mounting.html

[Thad House]

I remember hearing something about products beings shipped from WCP will have 2 day shipping to any California team. What do you guys think would be the standard time to ship from WCP to Portland? Is Portland close enough for that, or would we have to pay for 2 day shipping to get it in two days.

[Grant Cox]

You guys released a teaser to the 2014 drive in a day chassis on twitter earlier this week. Do you have an estimate on when it will be listed for sale?

We know that teams may wish to use it for this season, so we're working quickly to get it posted. Productization includes things like final design reviews, pricing, making a webpage, etc, all of which just take time.

Also, how do you use CIM style motors with VersaPlanetaries? I saw that you used them this way in Build Blitz, and that they could be essentially "officially unofficially" used like this in last year's version. Is there any special trick to doing it this year? How do the CIMs mount, etc?

Team JVN used a method similar to the Spectrum post linked above, and I assume Team Copioli did the same. The only difference is that this year's VersaPlanetaries include a few minor adjustments. One is that there are new motor mounting plates - for the CIM-style motor application, you can just ignore mounting plates and mount the input stage directly to the CIM. The other is that the input stage no longer has a bearing inside; the CIM shaft fits directly into where the collar would normally go. It pretty much "just works."

The necessary disclaimer is that VEX doesn't officially recommend or support this. Team JVN used a Mini CIM (stall torque ~1 ft-lb) through a 9:1 single stage, which is as high as they were comfortable going. The numbers technically work, but keep in mind that reversing or other shock loads can lead to torque transfer much higher than that 1 ft-lb at stall. It worked in this case because it's just an intake roller (low impact), not a rotating arm or something like that.

[ttldomination]

The necessary disclaimer is that VEX doesn't officially recommend or support this. Team JVN used a Mini CIM (stall torque ~1 ft-lb) through a 9:1 single stage, which is as high as they were comfortable going. The numbers technically work, but keep in mind that reversing or other shock loads can lead to torque transfer much higher than that 1 ft-lb at stall. It worked in this case because it's just an intake roller (low impact), not a rotating arm or something like that.

So, you're saying that Team JVN was "comfortable" going up to 9:1 Versaplanetary, but what is the general of "rule of thumb" stall torque maximum for the versaboxes?

We tried finding that value a little while ago, but couldn't really find it in the documentation.

- Sunny G.

[Gary.C]

I remember hearing something about products beings shipped from WCP will have 2 day shipping to any California team. What do you guys think would be the standard time to ship from WCP to Portland? Is Portland close enough for that, or would we have to pay for 2 day shipping to get it in two days.

Most if not all California orders ship in one day via FedEx ground. Surrounding areas such as Washington, Oregon, Nevada, etc.. ship in 2 days via FedEx ground. You can see the FedEx map here (http://www.wcproducts.net/shipping-returns/). We are just receiving our initial shipment of parts from VEXpro tomorrow and orders will start to be packaged and shipped the same day. We apologize for the delay of getting these orders out to customers as we know these orders are extremely time sensitive.

[Thad House]

Most if not all California orders ship in one day via FedEx ground. Surrounding areas such as Washington, Oregon, Nevada, etc.. ship in 2 days via FedEx ground. You can see the FedEx map here (http://www.wcproducts.net/shipping-returns/). We are just receiving our initial shipment of parts from VEXpro tomorrow and orders will start to be packaged and shipped the same day. We apologize for the delay of getting these orders out to customers as we know these orders are extremely time sensitive.

Thats great. The only thing we have ordered so far is the SS gearboxes, but will most likely have a very large order sometime next week. If its 2 day ground shipping, we will try and get it in either monday night or sometime tuesday, so hopefully it would be here for saturday assembly.

[martin417]

Is it possible to get the 2 stage ball shifter with a 4" long output shaft? The CAD model of the "long output shaft" 2-stage shows a 1.59" long shaft.

[Aren_Hill]

Is it possible to get the 2 stage ball shifter with a 4" long output shaft? The CAD model of the "long output shaft" 2-stage shows a 1.59" long shaft.

Martin,

The "long output shaft" is intended for sprocket/pulley drives to a final ratio, as such the max length is 1.59".

If you want to extend this shaft you may look at using one of the colson live hubs as a hex extension to another piece of axle (rather deep hex bore).

Or if you're up to it you can press out the axle and insert your own (heat will be required), this may be difficult but is doable. If you take that route please pay attention to internal features you must replicate.

[Jared]

I'm having issues with the CAD model for the Versa Planetary gearbox. When importing, the two halves of the case aren't lined up right (see picture), and I can't get them to line up right while having the hole for the bearing aligned.

[Aren_Hill]

I'm having issues with the CAD model for the Versa Planetary gearbox. When importing, the two halves of the case aren't lined up right (see picture), and I can't get them to line up right while having the hole for the bearing aligned.

I'm a little curious what's going on with your model, every model I have this is not an issue, have you tried re-mating it? I'll reupload the STEP file just to be sure.

Email
Prosupport "at" Vexrobotics.com if you need more help

-Aren

[Kevin Kolodziej]

The website now says WCP items will be shipping the week of the 20th, whereas the date that had been advertised was today, the 15th. Is the 20th for new orders at this point or for all orders? Simply: have all orders containing WCP items been delayed?

[Paul Copioli]

The website now says WCP items will be shipping the week of the 20th, whereas the date that had been advertised was today, the 15th. Is the 20th for new orders at this point or for all orders? Simply: have all orders containing WCP items been delayed?

Kevin,

All of the WCP gearboxes, Versachassis hex axle and Versablocks are shipping the week of 1/20. No one has received these items. However, the entire order is not held up. All products ship when available so if you had other items on the order and they were in stock they would ship immediately.

The Versatube (1x1 and 1x2) products shipped to all customers whose orders were placed January 8 or earlier. We sold about 2x what we thought we would sell of these products, but the remaining items are due to arrive either Friday or Monday morning and we will ship them out immediately. Currently, all remaining customer demand for the tubing will be fulfilled when the remaining items arrive.

With regards to the WCP gearboxes and other products delayed, the supplier found a quality issue common to all gearbox plates that needed to be fixed immediately. WCP and VEX currently have an engineer sitting at the manufacturing facility approving each part that comes out of manufacturing. We are shipping items daily and I am confident all the remaining WCP back ordered items will ship in time before next weekend. We at VEX and WCP believe that quality overruled schedule and made this judgment call. In the end, the customers who purchase the WCP gearboxes will be much happier with our decision even though they did not receive the product in the time frame any one of us would have preferred.

I guarantee you everyone at VEX, especially me, will learn from this and make sure all new items are in stock prior to kickoff.

I sincerely apologize for this delay. If you require more detailed assistance or want to change your order based on this new information, please contact vex customer service at sales<at>vexrobotics.com or 903-453-0802.

Paul

[Jared]

I'm a little curious what's going on with your model, every model I have this is not an issue, have you tried re-mating it? I'll reupload the STEP file just to be sure.

Email
Prosupport "at" Vexrobotics.com if you need more help

-Aren

Thanks, I got it. For some reason, Inventor loaded the top half at a 96% scale, so it didn't fit together right. It's working fine now.

[Thad House]

If we ordered from vex, but because of the delay we wanted to move our order to WCP, would there be enough stock at WCP where we could be guaranteed to get one? Or would we be pushed to the back, and potentially not even get one until even later. If thats the case, any way to get a discount on upgraded shipping, because another week delay with ground means the parts wont get here to OR until at least middle of week 4, which is WAY too late.

[Paul Copioli]

If we ordered from vex, but because of the delay we wanted to move our order to WCP, would there be enough stock at WCP where we could be guaranteed to get one? Or would we be pushed to the back, and potentially not even get one until even later. If thats the case, any way to get a discount on upgraded shipping, because another week delay with ground means the parts wont get here to OR until at least middle of week 4, which is WAY too late.

If you already ordered it from us, you WILL get it before next weekend no matter what shipping method you selected.

[Thad House]

If you already ordered it from us, you WILL get it before next weekend no matter what shipping method you selected.

Ah Cool. We ordered it mid December, so that helps.

Thanks for everything you guys do. Its very helpful.

[Thad House]

One more question about the WCP single speed gearboxes. Can we be sure that the CAD files are the correct dimensions for them? It says that the bearing block is 1.5 inch diameter, which the block holes spaced .9375 from the center, and the plate mounting holes 2.25 from the center. We wanted to wait until we have the gearboxes, but we cannot wait that long to weld, so if we can get confirmation that those are the correct numbers coming out of manufacturing that would be very helpful.

Thanks.

[R.C.]

One more question about the WCP single speed gearboxes. Can we be sure that the CAD files are the correct dimensions for them? It says that the bearing block is 1.5 inch diameter, which the block holes spaced .9375 from the center, and the plate mounting holes 2.25 from the center. We wanted to wait until we have the gearboxes, but we cannot wait that long to weld, so if we can get confirmation that those are the correct numbers coming out of manufacturing that would be very helpful.

Thanks.

Thad,

All WCP gearboxes have the shifter/bearing block mount holes spaced 1.875" apart (.9375"). All Plate mounting holes inline with the shifter/ holes are spaced 4.5" apart (2.25"). This allows for swapping of gearboxes in both SS/DS/3 CIM.

-RC

[thefro526]

If you already ordered it from us, you WILL get it before next weekend no matter what shipping method you selected.

Please excuse me if I'm reading into your post too much but, for those of us who haven't ordered yet, if we were to order WCP gearboxes sometime between now and the 20th (or on the 20th) when could we expect those items to ship out? I'm not sure if your post implies that you will ensure that all current orders are filled and to the purchaser by the weekend, or that there might be some sort of stocking issue? (I think it's the first.)

On a similar train of thought, but a different topic: For the items listed on the site that say 'ships before kick-off', are all of those items actively shipping out? I didn't want to assume this to be the case, but I'd imagine that by now, it must just be a minor delay in updating the website to 'in stock'.

[Paul Copioli]

Please excuse me if I'm reading into your post too much but, for those of us who haven't ordered yet, if we were to order WCP gearboxes sometime between now and the 20th (or on the 20th) when could we expect those items to ship out? I'm not sure if your post implies that you will ensure that all current orders are filled and to the purchaser by the weekend, or that there might be some sort of stocking issue? (I think it's the first.)

On a similar train of thought, but a different topic: For the items listed on the site that say 'ships before kick-off', are all of those items actively shipping out? I didn't want to assume this to be the case, but I'd imagine that by now, it must just be a minor delay in updating the website to 'in stock'.

What I meant is that some people ordered with ground shipping over a week ago. I am promising those customers that ordered within the ground timeframe that their stuff will arrive in time for next weekend even if I have to air ship it at our cost. We at VEX understand the FRC time frame and would rather have the stuff in stock so we will make sure teams don't miss another weekend during build season.

The ships before kickoff tag should be removed from all products, but I will have my web guys double check in the morning.