Vex Versachassis

[rwkling1]

I looked all through the thread about vex's new products, but I didn't really see anyone's opinions. I have talked with a few people on my team and I wanted to get some feedback from CD. Our team has used C Channel for 4 years now, I was wondering (from the teams who did a similar drive last year), do you think the versachassis will be easier to build? Will it be lighter (i looked at the specifications on their website but didn't see anything)? How much will the whole thing cost, for the gearboxes, wheels, frame, etc.? What are some of your first impressions?
Thanks!

[Andrew Lawrence]

In my humble opinion, the VersaChassis is going to revolutionize FRC. It's cheap, lightweight, reliable, and the best part, will save teams A BUNCH of time during the build season. I know RC and the crew behind this put a lot of thought into making it easy and quick to assemble, and because of this a single person can put it together in half a day, a small team of people could put one together in a few hours. I've spent a lot of my time researching powerful drivetrains the past 4 years, and I can honestly say this is up to par with every custom drive I've seen. So in summation, you get a powerful drivetrain that can compete at the level of the best drivetrains in California (because those are where the best drivetrains are from ;)), and you can save time during the build season by having it assembled extremely quickly. Looking at the capabilities of this chassis, I'd say any team, rookie or pro, who doesn't use the VersaChassis is going to be at a disadvantage in 2014 compared to everyone else, solely because of the time saved that can be used to work on scoring mechanisms.

[AdamHeard]

In the video last night VEX mentioned plans to release plans suggesting different configurations, I think a lot of your questions will be answered then.

I am also curious. I can tell it's good stuff, but it's a bit tedious now to figure out the price of one.

[BrendanB]

In my humble opinion, the VersaChassis is going to revolutionize FRC. It's cheap, lightweight, reliable, and the best part, will save teams A BUNCH of time during the build season. I know RC and the crew behind this put a lot of thought into making it easy and quick to assemble, and because of this a single person can put it together in half a day, a small team of people could put one together in a few hours. I've spent a lot of my time researching powerful drivetrains the past 4 years, and I can honestly say this is up to par with every custom drive I've seen. So in summation, you get a powerful drivetrain that can compete at the level of the best drivetrains in California (because those are where the best drivetrains are from ;)), and you can save time during the build season by having it assembled extremely quickly. Looking at the capabilities of this chassis, I'd say any team, rookie or pro, who doesn't use the VersaChassis is going to be at a disadvantage in 2014 compared to everyone else, solely because of the time saved that can be used to work on scoring mechanisms.

Does anyone know if the Versa Chassis has been used in a competition before or similar match play? I wouldn't be using the term "reliable" unless it has undergone a typical season that an FRC team would go through. I am a huge fan of off the shelf solutions but I would be cautious about running such a custom style drivebase in 2014 without "breaking it" so to speak.

[Andrew Lawrence]

Does anyone know if the Versa Chassis has been used in a competition before or similar match play? I wouldn't be using the term "reliable" unless it has undergone a typical season that an FRC team would go through. I am a huge fan of off the shelf solutions but I would be cautious about running such a custom style drivebase in 2014 without "breaking it" so to speak.

I know some of the VEXpro and WCP teams put the drives under serious testing and I believe there may have been some running at offseason competitions, and they all held up perfectly.

[R.C.]

Does anyone know if the Versa Chassis has been used in a competition before or similar match play? I wouldn't be using the term "reliable" unless it has undergone a typical season that an FRC team would go through. I am a huge fan of off the shelf solutions but I would be cautious about running such a custom style drivebase in 2014 without "breaking it" so to speak.

Brendan,

We had two robots at mttd off season that ran this configuration. The setup works really well. We will have documentation/step files/cad etc... Available as soon as we can.

-RC

[Chris is me]

Looking at the capabilities of this chassis, I'd say any team, rookie or pro, who doesn't use the VersaChassis is going to be at a disadvantage in 2014 compared to everyone else, solely because of the time saved that can be used to work on scoring mechanisms.

You can't possibly make such a huge blanket statement like this. I'm reasonably confident that at least one team in FRC can finish a drivetrain before the VersaChassis parts arrive in the mail, assuming they order on Kickoff. So that's time and money saved. Not to mention that man-hours aren't simply interchangeable like that.

It's a fantastic drivetrain, don't get me wrong, and it will be of tremendous help to many teams, but don't be ridiculous.

Anyhow, to answer the OP: Kitbot on Steroids is about 42 pounds with motors and without electronics; this chassis can cut that number down a lot (I've heard 30 pounds thrown around). It is worth noting the cost of this drivetrain though - it's going to be at least $120 in bearing block parts, $40 in frame, $20 in gussets, $40 in shafting, $120 in gearboxes (2 reduction single speed), $60 in bearings, and ~$60 in sprockets and chain. All assuming you still have CIMs and live axle wheels lying around.

So you're looking at a $460 drivetrain, compared to a free frame and gearboxes in the kit of parts. If you already opted out of the kit, then factoring in $450 of free AndyMark stuff which could replace some Vex components makes the drive a bit cheaper. It will take a little work to assemble, but it seems like you just need a drill, a saw, and a credit card to pull it off.

It's all about tradeoffs, really. Depends on your team and your situation, but it is certainly a really tempting drive that you should seriously consider. WCD has never been easier.

[rwkling1]

You can't possibly make such a huge blanket statement like this. I'm reasonably confident that at least one team in FRC can finish a drivetrain before the VersaChassis parts arrive in the mail, assuming they order on Kickoff. So that's time and money saved. Not to mention that man-hours aren't simply interchangeable like that.

It's a fantastic drivetrain, don't get me wrong, and it will be of tremendous help to many teams, but don't be ridiculous.

Anyhow, to answer the OP: Kitbot on Steroids is about 42 pounds with motors and without electronics; this chassis can cut that number down a lot (I've heard 30 pounds thrown around). It is worth noting the cost of this drivetrain though - it's going to be at least $120 in bearing block parts, $40 in frame, $20 in gussets, $40 in shafting, $120 in gearboxes (2 reduction single speed), $60 in bearings, and ~$60 in sprockets and chain. All assuming you still have CIMs and live axle wheels lying around.

So you're looking at a $460 drivetrain, compared to a free frame and gearboxes in the kit of parts. If you already opted out of the kit, then factoring in $450 of free AndyMark stuff which could replace some Vex components makes the drive a bit cheaper. It will take a little work to assemble, but it seems like you just need a drill, a saw, and a credit card to pull it off.

It's all about tradeoffs, really. Depends on your team and your situation, but it is certainly a really tempting drive that you should seriously consider. WCD has never been easier.

I can see where you're coming from, but until they come out with an official price, you can really start saying that it's going to be really expensive, because they did say that it's "affordable" but affordable in robotics terms is a little vague.

[Chris is me]

I can see where you're coming from, but until they come out with an official price, you can really start saying that it's going to be really expensive, because they did say that it's "affordable" but affordable in robotics terms is a little vague.

The prices I used are all available on the Vex and AndyMark websites. I assumed a 6WD west coast drive with 4 bearing blocks for Vex and something like the 2013 Kitbot for AndyMark.

[AllenGregoryIV]

I can see where you're coming from, but until they come out with an official price, you can really start saying that it's going to be really expensive, because they did say that it's "affordable" but affordable in robotics terms is a little vague.

Unless I'm mistaken they have come out with the official prices. All the parts are available and ready to be ordered. They just haven't released the documentation.

We still haven't seen the kit of parts drive train for this season. All we know is that it's adding a direct driven wheel and it's made out of sheet metal. I don't think we can start comparing things to it until it's been in the hands of teams, same goes for the new VersaChassis.

All of this innovation is going to great for FRC but it's a little to early to speculate which things will actually be game changing and give huge advantages to teams. We'll have to wait and see if the a full VersaChassis is that much better compared too a Kitbot on Steroids or VEXpro chassis in a day (both of which can also be put together in a very short period of time). It's not like the westcoast drive is the end all and be all of drive trains, there are plenty of great robots every year that don't use westcoast drives trains.

[Nemo]

For a WCD Versachassis, I get a cost of $310.

$40: 2x Versachassis Rail @ $20
$20: 1x Versachassis gusset 8 pack
$150: 6x Versablock kit @$25
$40: 8x 1/2" hex bearing @$5
$20: 4x Versablock Cam @$5
$40: 4x Versachassis hex shaft @$10

Here's what I come up with for a 3 CIM ball shifter, 6 CIM, WCD drive base with 4" traction wheels/tires:

$40: 2x Versachassis Rail @ $20
$20: 1x Versachassis gusset 8 pack
$150: 6x Versablock kit @$25
$40: 8x 1/2" hex bearing @$5
$20: 4x Versablock Cam @$5
$40: 4x Versachassis hex shaft @$10
$480: 2x 3 CIM Ball Shifter @$240 w/ cylinder @$240
$42: 3x 12T CIM Gear @$7
$56: 8x #18T sprocket @$7
$84: 6x 4" Traction Wheel @$14
$30: 6x 4" Traction Tire@$5 per 0.5" 2 pack
$10: #25 chain
$150: 6x CIM Motor @$25

Total: $1162

I view that as an expensive drive base. I'm trying to figure out if our team can stomach the cost of that drive base (x2 with practice robot). That's $2300 without even talking about the costs to build manipulators.

If I remember right, last year's kit bot was worth between $500 and $600 if you bought all of the components.

Going with a West Coast Products single speed West Coast Drive gearbox instead of a 3 speed ballshifter would reduce the cost by $260 (gearbox is $110 vs $240). If we can use last year's ball shifters (similar to what Adam Heard posted for their WCD setup last year) and then buy only one set of regular ball shifters this year, that would reduce the cost significantly while maintaining 2 speed capability.

The existence of this excellent, albeit somewhat expensive "kit" drive base is going to create some interesting discussions.

[Chris is me]

Literally half of the cost of that drive base is in the shifters though. When you compare a Vex single speed (double reduction gearbox is about $60) version of the West Coast drive to an AndyMark Kitbot (valued at ~$450) it's a much more even comparison.

[Nemo]

Literally half of the cost of that drive base is in the shifters though. When you compare a Vex single speed (double reduction gearbox is about $60) version of the West Coast drive to an AndyMark Kitbot (valued at ~$450) it's a much more even comparison.

True. Here's a list that's more tailored to be a comparison to the kitbot. This uses West Coast Products WCD single speed gearboxes (Vex single speed gearboxes aren't setup for WCD). It also uses Versawheels instead of traction wheels and omits CIM motors. That should put it on similar footing with a kit bot.

$40: 2x Versachassis Rail @ $20
$20: 1x Versachassis gusset 8 pack
$150: 6x Versablock kit @$25
$40: 8x 1/2" hex bearing @$5
$20: 4x Versablock Cam @$5
$40: 4x Versachassis hex shaft @$10
$220: 2x WCP SS WCD gearbox @$110
$28: 4x CIM gear @$7
$56: 8x #18T sprocket @$7
$36: 6x Versawheel DT @$6
$10: #25 chain

Total: $660

I agree with your premise that the shifters add a big portion of the cost. Wheels can jack up the cost, too, depending what you get.

[rwkling1]

I did the math for C Channel, and I got about $794 (our team uses C Channel) and this is for Mecanums (our team likes to use mecanums), corner links, the actual c channel, 4 toughbox minis, corner links, and wheels. I didn't include CIMs or belts because we don't know what belts we're going to use and the number of CIMs could vary.

[waialua359]

Looking at the capabilities of this chassis, I'd say any team, rookie or pro, who doesn't use the VersaChassis is going to be at a disadvantage in 2014 compared to everyone else, solely because of the time saved that can be used to work on scoring mechanisms.

I beg to differ.

If anything, the new VEXPro line with respect to the chassis, helps even the playing field and skies the limit for teams with much less capabilities.
VEXPro has continued to listen to teams as Paul has stated and continue to meet the needs of the majority of those with less resources.

But does that truly put a veteran team with capabilities at a disadvantage?

[cadandcookies]

I more see VersaChassis as a nice addition to a market filled with already excellent products. By no means to I think that teams that use VersaChassis are gaining any significant advantage over teams that use the kitbot, another COTS drive train assembly, or even build a custom drive train in a reasonable amount of time. The kitbot has only gotten better, and there will always be advantages to custom-designing a drive train that meets your exact needs. As Chris is Me said, it's all about tradeoffs, and I can bet there will be teams that don't use VersaChassis that beat teams that do.

As for price comparisons, with VexPro, basically any drive train is incredibly cheap. Using essentially the same drive train my team used last year, I'm calculating that it will be around $900 per drive train this year for my team. This is down from $1200 last year, which is incredible. It's possible as we optimize that it will get even cheaper.

Bottom line is, this is an excellent looking product, and I have no doubt that teams will put it to good use during 2014, but it is not the be-all end-all of COTS drive trains or drive trains in general. Seriously, people, calm yourselves down!

Also, note that the VersaChassis bearing blocks are currently listed as being available January 15th.

[rwkling1]

Another thing that I noticed is that the shipping for the 3 CIM gearbox, it says it will ship on the 15th of January.. that and another part.

[ajlapp]

I think VersaChassis looks like a compelling addition to the COTS drivetrain market. Definitely a unique solution to the placement and management of wheels on a tube.

We've been providing COTS and custom chassis solutions to teams since 2008 and we've yet to work with a team that didn't truly appreciate the time and effort saved by not re-engineering a stick with wheels every season.

Interestingly, a lot of FRC teams have plenty of cash but are extra tight on time and know-how. COTS chassis systems fit this niche really well.

The price point for VersaChassis is amazing as well...though the source of these components likely isn't domestic, for what it's worth.

Hopefully our SimpleTube Chassis (http://www.team221.com/viewproduct.php?id=130) will be an equally compelling option for teams looking for a COTS solution in 2014.

[Andrew Lawrence]

I beg to differ.

If anything, the new VEXPro line with respect to the chassis, helps even the playing field and skies the limit for teams with much less capabilities.
VEXPro has continued to listen to teams as Paul has stated and continue to meet the needs of the majority of those with less resources.

But does that truly put a veteran team with capabilities at a disadvantage?

I include veteran teams because of the time saved. You can assemble it in a few hours and never have to worry about your drivetrain again for the rest of the season. Even pro teams here in California spend a few days at minimum on their drivetrain for manufacturing, and that doesn't include maintenance throughout the season. I'd say a veteran team could definitely use the time gained to their advantage.

[BurkeHalderman]

Hopefully our SimpleTube Chassis (http://www.team221.com/viewproduct.php?id=130) will be an equally compelling option for teams looking for a COTS solution in 2014.

Is there an estimated cost yet for the SimpleTube Chassis we could use as a comparison to the multiple VersaChassis price options Nemo posted earlier? I know the page lists it as a custom order only but will it be available as a kit similiar to the kitbot, Vex Drive-in-a-day chassis, or VersaChassis? It looks like a great addition to the COTS drivetrain family, can't wait to learn more about it.

[BrendanB]

I beg to differ.

If anything, the new VEXPro line with respect to the chassis, helps even the playing field and skies the limit for teams with much less capabilities.
VEXPro has continued to listen to teams as Paul has stated and continue to meet the needs of the majority of those with less resources.

But does that truly put a veteran team with capabilities at a disadvantage?

I agree with Glenn on this. The past two seasons of WCP and Vexpro products have brought us parts that many elite teams have been using for years but low resources teams just can't get. We used a lot of Vex parts last year. Some we loved, some we didn't but we were able to weigh our options among a larger pool of parts compared to previous seasons.

I too don't think it puts veteran teams at a disadvantage if they choose not to use the Versa Chassis or Vexpro parts. I wouldn't say finishing your drivebase a few days earlier is a game changer either. We finished both of our drivebases by the end of week two and received a parts from Vexpro and AM a few days before. Never had we finished the drivebase that quickly but it didn't change our season.

The best thing teams can do is comprehend their resources and what they can accomplish. This starts before the build season when you analyze your resources and again in week 1-2 when you see the game, prototype, and understand the best fit for your team in the game, not what the championship robot will be.

Using the Versa Chassis can help some teams (so will the Kitbot as it takes the same amount of time to build and many will have it day 1) but its just a stepping stone to success. Teams need to find what works for them and build upon it. For some it may probably be the Versa Chassis but for others it just might be the 2014 kitbot, or the 2013, or a custom welded tube frame, or their own WCD, or a swerve drive, or mecanums, or.....

The new products look amazing and I can't wait for 2014. Thanks to everyone who worked on them!

[jsasaki]

I wouldn't say disadvantage
In my humble opinion, the VersaChassis is going to revolutionize FRC. It's cheap, lightweight, reliable, and the best part, will save teams A BUNCH of time during the build season. I know RC and the crew behind this put a lot of thought into making it easy and quick to assemble, and because of this a single person can put it together in half a day, a small team of people could put one together in a few hours. I've spent a lot of my time researching powerful drivetrains the past 4 years, and I can honestly say this is up to par with every custom drive I've seen. So in summation, you get a powerful drivetrain that can compete at the level of the best drivetrains in California (because those are where the best drivetrains are from ;)), and you can save time during the build season by having it assembled extremely quickly. Looking at the capabilities of this chassis, I'd say any team, rookie or pro, who doesn't use the VersaChassis is going to be at a disadvantage in 2014 compared to everyone else, solely because of the time saved that can be used to work on scoring mechanisms.

[rwkling1]

I still have a question, is the system still a good buy when the gearboxes won't ship until the 15th of January? That's a week and a half after build season starts

[Akash Rastogi]

I still have a question, is the system still a good buy when the gearboxes won't ship until the 15th of January? That's a week and a half after build season starts

That's really up to you to decide. You can wait and use CAD for anything else, or you can use one of the other COTS options, or obviously something custom. Both the VersaChassis and the Team221 drive look awesome. I'm excited to see what teams produce!

[DampRobot]

I still have a question, is the system still a good buy when the gearboxes won't ship until the 15th of January? That's a week and a half after build season starts

I don't know about you, but that's pretty much exactly when I'm going to start ordering parts for my team.

One thing that I really like about the VersaChassis system is that you can build inventory and still maintain a lot of versatility. You can basically order parts for the drive, and decide while they're in the mail how you're going to configure your drive. Before, there were always some long lead AM, BB or SDPSI products that you needed to order early, and once you ordered them, you really couldn't change what type of drive you wanted. Now, you could probably change your drive multiple times per season, without reordering anything!

I'm also excited about the idea of being able to buy one of these systems and testing out manipulator prototypes on it really quickly. If you're in the one day shipping zone, you can buy most of these parts on kickoff day, then spend all of week one working with prototypes on an actual drive base (which very well could end up being your final one). A lot of the things people miss in prototyping are stuff like driver alignment or precision issues that suddenly becomes apparent when the mechanism is being driven around on a robot instead of by humans. Getting a DT really early could help with finding a lot of these types of errors early in prototyping, when you can still change it, rather when the actual robot comes together in week 6.

[Anupam Goli]

My take on Versachassis and Versaframe:

At this point, our team is going to start transitioning towards more customizing in the future. However good of a transition to more customizable options(such as tubing and sheet metal) Versachassis and Versaframe are, it's still a large transition that relies a lot on experienced mentors who can think in the mindset, and we will need to build our CAD team and ensure they are able to handle the pressure they will be in.

Currently, our team uses 8020 for rapid iteration of prototypes and we keep those fine tuned components on top of an 8020 chassis that is designed around whatever driving constraints we set on the team. Yes, it would save us time in designing the drivetrain if we were to switch to versachassis, but in order to focus on manipulator prototyping, we use 8020. Having a uniform 8020 chassis and frame allows us to slide and test our prototypes in various positions and prototype more efficiently. In turn, our CAD team is not pressured as much to create exact components and prototypes can literally be stuck on top of the robot when we find them to be effective enough.

During the next offseason, we may purchase some Versaframe and VersaChassis components to play around with, but before we switch to a more customized option, we need to lay the foundations of iterative design and prototyping down and have the team be able to prototype effectively before we move on to fabricating custom parts and using something more custom such as VersaFrame. In order to ease the transition, our entire team needs to have this crucial prototyping knowledge and experience, have a solid CAD team that can handle the pressure, and our technical mentors need to be ready to make the transition in the academy of thought customizing brings to the table.

[rwkling1]

I don't know about you, but that's pretty much exactly when I'm going to start ordering parts for my team.

One thing that I really like about the VersaChassis system is that you can build inventory and still maintain a lot of versatility. You can basically order parts for the drive, and decide while they're in the mail how you're going to configure your drive. Before, there were always some long lead AM, BB or SDPSI products that you needed to order early, and once you ordered them, you really couldn't change what type of drive you wanted. Now, you could probably change your drive multiple times per season, without reordering anything!

I'm also excited about the idea of being able to buy one of these systems and testing out manipulator prototypes on it really quickly. If you're in the one day shipping zone, you can buy most of these parts on kickoff day, then spend all of week one working with prototypes on an actual drive base (which very well could end up being your final one). A lot of the things people miss in prototyping are stuff like driver alignment or precision issues that suddenly becomes apparent when the mechanism is being driven around on a robot instead of by humans. Getting a DT really early could help with finding a lot of these types of errors early in prototyping, when you can still change it, rather when the actual robot comes together in week 6.

That's a very good point. That is around the time that we'd be ordering gearboxes/parts for the game specific parts of the robot.

[runneals]

In my humble opinion, the VersaChassis is going to revolutionize FRC. It's cheap, lightweight, reliable, and the best part, will save teams A BUNCH of time during the build season. I know RC and the crew behind this put a lot of thought into making it easy and quick to assemble, and because of this a single person can put it together in half a day, a small team of people could put one together in a few hours. I've spent a lot of my time researching powerful drivetrains the past 4 years, and I can honestly say this is up to par with every custom drive I've seen. So in summation, you get a powerful drivetrain that can compete at the level of the best drivetrains in California (because those are where the best drivetrains are from ;)), and you can save time during the build season by having it assembled extremely quickly. Looking at the capabilities of this chassis, I'd say any team, rookie or pro, who doesn't use the VersaChassis is going to be at a disadvantage in 2014 compared to everyone else, solely because of the time saved that can be used to work on scoring mechanisms.

We made and used a chassis (http://www.teamneutrino.org/seasons/ultimate-ascent/robot/chassis/) related to the VersaChassis this past year (I'm kinda wondering if that's where some of the idea came from), and I'll just say I LOVED it. This is a great concept to allow you to modify your design as you build from a base chassis with or without a nice shop at your team's disposal. I've found it so valuable, that this is something that I'm bringing to the team I'm mentoring this year.

[AdamHeard]

We made and used a chassis (http://www.teamneutrino.org/seasons/ultimate-ascent/robot/chassis/) related to the VersaChassis this past year (I'm kinda wondering if that's where some of the idea came from), and I'll just say I LOVED it. This is a great concept to allow you to modify your design as you build from a base chassis with or without a nice shop at your team's disposal. I've found it so valuable, that this is something that I'm bringing to the team I'm mentoring this year.

The standard hole pattern idea has been around for years, we've done it forever and we stole it from 195 who was doing it back then.

It's awesome, it's so darn useful being to rivet/bolt on anything anywhere w/o drilling in place or custom layout.

[Travis Schuh]

I include veteran teams because of the time saved. You can assemble it in a few hours and never have to worry about your drivetrain again for the rest of the season. Even pro teams here in California spend a few days at minimum on their drivetrain for manufacturing, and that doesn't include maintenance throughout the season. I'd say a veteran team could definitely use the time gained to their advantage.

The main disadvantage of using a COTS drivetrain as I see it for a vetran team is tying up so much of their BOM budget before they even get to the parts that score points. Given a pro team with machining resources, I still see a custom drive train being the way to go because of the oportunities it creates for spending money elsewhere, where the real design time savings are. It will save designers more time if they have the BOM room to use more versa planataries at $65 a pop instead of having to design custom gearboxes everywhere. The design time in a WCD is trivial for those who have done it before and the assembly time is going to be the same because they all have the same basic components to assemble.

-Travis

[BBray_T1296]

I personally love all the addition of all these high end quality (but not high end prices) being added to the FRC market. It is really driving the sport and will help bring more teams up to a highly competitive level.

While our team will still keep our own frame building methods, last year, and very likely this year will buy our entire drivetrain from VexPro.

One thing that may be good or may be bad is this: Teams don't really need to make their own custom drivetrains anymore. Practically every option is available quicker and as cheap as a home-built machine. A custom drivetrain may only be marginally superior to a COTS one nowadays. Perhaps this tampers with innovation on our parts, but it sure helps out a lot of us.

You are arguing whether the slight time delay of ordering a drivetrain puts off the advantages of one, but consider the time and effort your team put into the offseason to develop these drivetrains. Now you can focus on other improvements, like spreading FIRST and helping the community; you can focus your attention to bigger and better things. You know for a fact that come build season, a drivetrain just as good as you could have devoted your effort to is just waiting in a box somewhere in Texas or Michigan.

I'm just waiting for the 2015 product release when they announce the Versa-Swerve drivetrain. :P

[Paul Copioli]

All,

Many points have been made in this thread so I will try to address these from VEX's point of view:

After evaluating the successes and failures with the sales of our products last season and sifting through all of the customer suggestions and comments it was clear to us that increasingly more teams are using the WCD style drive bases. Since our strategy since the original kitbot back in 2005 was a primarily sheet metal drive base, we saw that we needed a solution to offer the teams that prefer the live axle solution. We also noticed that some people prefer open plate designs for their gearboxes.

It seemed logical to approach WCP to see if there was a way that we could partner. RC and team were very receptive to our ideas and an agreement was made very quickly. During the process of reviewing what each company was planning for 2014, the VersaChassis was born. We were working on the 1x1 custom tubing and gusset plates and they were working on a flexible system to mount the WCD to a 2 x 1 framing system. The VersaChassis was born. We did not create it because we thought it was the least expensive option. We did not create it because we thought it was an FRC game changer. We created it because we needed a solution for teams that wanted to use this style of drive but didn't have the means to make CNC parts.

One thing to keep in mind with cost is that the VEXpro Single Speed and Ball Shifter Gearboxes all include the 12 tooth aluminum pinions and their respective mounting hardware. The WCP versions have so many possible options that they are broken out as a separate option.

Paul

[Nemo]

I'm not sure if I came across as whining about prices. In case I did, I think the 2014 Vex Pro prices are perfectly fair given the apparent high quality of the product line and the prices of products available elsewhere.

[Billfred]

...we saw that we needed a solution to offer the teams that prefer the live axle solution.

Who would ever be in that camp? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47117) ;)

This is definitely going to become an interesting year for teams that have the financial headroom to skip the kitbot. I look forward to seeing a few of these on the field.

[Andy Baker]

The main disadvantage of using a COTS drivetrain as I see it for a vetran team is tying up so much of their BOM budget before they even get to the parts that score points.

This is definitely going to become an interesting year for teams that have the financial headroom to skip the kitbot.

However, what if the KoP Chassis (let's call it the AM14U) is just as good as any COTS chassis, with regard to efficiency, ease of build, expandability, acceptability to optional add-ons, and weight?

Andy

[Andrew Schreiber]

However, what if the KoP Chassis (let's call it the AM14U) is just as good as any COTS chassis, with regard to efficiency, ease of build, expandability, acceptability to optional add-ons, and weight?

Andy

Then I'd be happy as a pig in mud. But what if information on it was released prior to kickoff so we could familiarize ourselves with the options ;)

(Or, really for those who run rookie quick builds so they weren't trying to figure it out as they go)

[Akash Rastogi]

However, what if the KoP Chassis (let's call it the AM14U) is just as good as any COTS chassis, with regard to efficiency, ease of build, expandability, acceptability to optional add-ons, and weight?

Andy

Then we would feel very silly about taking the AM Voucher option for 2495. :)

[Taylor]

Then I'd be happy as a pig in mud. But what if information on it was released prior to kickoff so we could familiarize ourselves with the options ;)

(Or, really for those who run rookie quick builds so they weren't trying to figure it out as they go)

I get the feeling that if they were allowed by FRC to release the 2014 KoP chassis, they would.

Silly Non-Disclosure Agreements.

[Andrew Schreiber]

I get the feeling that if they were allowed by FRC to release the 2014 KoP chassis, they would.

Silly Non-Disclosure Agreements.

I know, I'm really just trying to float that idea to someone who might be able to get it to the right people.

[Electronica1]

However, what if the KoP Chassis (let's call it the AM14U) is just as good as any COTS chassis, with regard to efficiency, ease of build, expandability, acceptability to optional add-ons, and weight?

Andy

That would explain the AM14U Chassis link on this page
http://www.andymark.com/AM14U-s/510.htm -they got rid of the links to the quick upgrade packages around 20 minutes after I put this up

I really like the idea of quick upgrade packages (giving it comparable abilities to the versachassis if I had to guess). The best part is it is sheet metal!

[Akash Rastogi]

I know, I'm really just trying to float that idea to someone who might be able to get it to the right people.

Wanna move to another thread? I had the same feeling about this when we had to make the voucher decision with barely any info. It would be good to talk about.

[mrnoble]

I know the people at Vex often visit here, so I have a concern I'd like to address and see if they have a response.

I love the VexPro products; we binge-bought gear boxes, motors, and parts last spring, and we're really looking forward to using them for this year's game. When VersaChassis was unveiled, it significantly changed our plans for the structure of our bot. Today, I bought about $700 of the chassis parts in anticipation of using them. My concern is the delivery date. The email I received simply said that it was on hold due to extended lead time. When I called, I was told that they were hoping to ship "sometime in January". While I understand that this may just be a way of avoiding broken promises, I am concerned that we have now invested our budget in materials that might not arrive in time for us to actually build a robot. If I can't get some assurance that we will be able to use the parts, we will probably have to look at other options and cancel the order.

Hoping to get some feedback. Thanks!

[Brandon_L]

Then we would feel very silly about taking the AM Voucher option for 2495. :)

We chose the voucher, but in retrospect we somewhat wish we did not. A huge part of that decision was just having no idea what the hell the kit was going to be.

To whoever is responsible for that, I feel like forcing teams to choose blindly was a horrible idea.

[Nemo]

We chose the voucher, but in retrospect we somewhat wish we did not. A huge part of that decision was just having no idea what the hell the kit was going to be.

To whoever is responsible for that, I feel like forcing teams to choose blindly was a horrible idea.

If you like having options, I think the voucher is still a good choice even if you ultimately build a near-exact copy of the kit bot. It just depends if there's any possibility that your team would choose different gearboxes (such as shifters) or a different frame. If that's a possibility, the flexibility of the voucher is very nice.

"Forcing us to choose blindly" is putting it a bit melodramatically; they needed to know our choice far enough ahead of time to allow the kits to be put together in sufficient quantities. I felt that we had enough information about the kit bot (sheet aluminum frame with Toughbox Mini gearboxes, likely with 4" wheels) that we could easily make the decision that fit our team's needs the best.

[BrendanB]

We chose the voucher, but in retrospect we somewhat wish we did not. A huge part of that decision was just having no idea what the hell the kit was going to be.

To whoever is responsible for that, I feel like forcing teams to choose blindly was a horrible idea.

I'll second you on that one! Last year it was easy as I believe they said the kit would remain near the same. We choose it last year because the $450 was worth more to us as the kit bot (and with the feature of belts was a nice touch). Our team is such a fan of the Kitbot on Steroids method that we signed up again, however with if it leaves us with less room for customization with the new style I will be put off considering the lack of information that was released to teams regarding exactly what we would be getting.

[Foster]

We chose the voucher, but in retrospect we somewhat wish we did not. A huge part of that decision was just having no idea what the hell the kit was going to be.

To whoever is responsible for that, I feel like forcing teams to choose blindly was a horrible idea.

And I'm thinking that it isn't / wasn't / not going to be. You are trying to pre-guess a game, line up parts, etc based on "current market conditions" Hey, welcome to the real world of engineering, we do this all the time. Pick a CPU, build an eco-system around it, and go for the market. Some people, say Raspberry-Pi, picked Broadcom SoC and had an epic win, but it could go easily the other way.

So you have an amazing lesson learned for your team. Market conditions shift. Who knows what AM will present in the next week? AM is another building full of smart guys working on cool robot stuff. And when they present their new product line are you going to swing the other way?

But I'll make a deal with you. As the Chief Roboteer of STEMRobotics, I'll buy your AM voucher, send me a PM and I'll send you a check to cover the cost. I'll work out a way to get it to a rookie team that wants it. But, in the case that you decide to go the AM frame, you buy two and send the second to a rookie.

Risk, reward, market conditions, etc. This is what FIRST is partially about. Real world engineering in real world conditions with real world demands on delivery to the market place. (In a nice ecosystem where they don't fire you and put you and your family on the street living in a minivan)

Just as an aside, I love the VEX guys, I'm presently sitting next to $2.3 million in VRC parts, I've been with them for awhile. But I have equal love for AM, their parts and amazing customer service (Andy delivered parts to our pits!) So being fickle after an advertising blitz is OK for CD, but in the real world you need to work with your suppliers.

[Paul Copioli]

I know the people at Vex often visit here, so I have a concern I'd like to address and see if they have a response.

I love the VexPro products; we binge-bought gear boxes, motors, and parts last spring, and we're really looking forward to using them for this year's game. When VersaChassis was unveiled, it significantly changed our plans for the structure of our bot. Today, I bought about $700 of the chassis parts in anticipation of using them. My concern is the delivery date. The email I received simply said that it was on hold due to extended lead time. When I called, I was told that they were hoping to ship "sometime in January". While I understand that this may just be a way of avoiding broken promises, I am concerned that we have now invested our budget in materials that might not arrive in time for us to actually build a robot. If I can't get some assurance that we will be able to use the parts, we will probably have to look at other options and cancel the order.

Hoping to get some feedback. Thanks!


Joel,

In looking at your order (#11081799), all of the sprockets and chain are in stock and can ship immediately. All of the gussets will definitely ship before kickoff (they are made in our Greenville, TX sheet metal shop). I just approved the production samples for the tubing (they look way better than I expected) so I am hoping they will ship by Kickoff, too. Worst case scenario, the tubing will ship by January 15th.

In my opinion, this is plenty of time to support your robot build. However, if you believe this does not support your schedule please either call, 903-453-0802, or e-mail us, support@vex.com, to cancel all, or part, of your order.

Paul

[mrnoble]

Paul,

I meant what I said about being wild about your products, and about the reveal of the VersaChassis being a major factor in changing our purchasing plans for the year. I also really appreciate your response. For now, it sounds like your production is on-target for making the materials work for our (and everyone else's) robot, and we will keep the order together in hopes that it works out. We may build our practice bot out of some local square tube with your gussets, if the tubing isn't ready before the 15th. Please keep us updated as we get closer to kickoff, as to any changes in ship-by dates. And again, you guys make and sell awesome products.

[Oblarg]

As cool as VersaChassis looks, I don't think either of the teams I work with will be using it for our main chassis this year; at 449 we've already purchased a very large quantity of 2x1 and have a fair number of 80/20 gussets lying around, which will suffice for our framing purposes. At 4464, we're going with the kitbot chassis, since that worked wonderfully for us last year; might consider it for superstructure, though.

That said, I can't wait to experiment with it for drive bases in the offseason and in future years. Looks like it'll save a significant amount of time from the match-drilled gusset plate construction we've been using on both teams.