FIRST Choice Sunday redux

[MooreteP]

So...., lets see how today goes.

The Practice round was meh minus +.

I'm bright-eyed and bushy-tailed for 3:00.

Let's hope that the product is improved.

[Andy Baker]

We are loading up the site, as a test at 11am Eastern today. This starts in 8 minutes.

If you have a minute or two, go here (https://www.firstchoicebyandymark.com/en/) and click around.

Thanks,
Andy

[Joe G.]

At the moment, noticeably slower than it was earlier this morning, but still perfectly usable.

So far so good.

[ttldomination]

At the moment, noticeably slower than it was earlier this morning, but still perfectly usable.

Aye.

Latency seems to be between 3-10 seconds for loading items/home page.

Noticeable, but manageable.

- Sunny G.

[JB987]

Ok, I was at least able to log into site today...but still took about 8 seconds as opposed to 1-2 seconds usual log-in speed for my set up. Couldn't add to check out cart (no psudo points?). I wonder how fast log in will be when 1-2,000 try to log in for real later instead of the few doing so currently?

[MechEng83]

I was logged in prior to 11pm, and then all of a sudden at 11, it logged me out and told me my credentials were incorrect for about 2 minutes. Got logged in again, and seems to be working ok.

[mrnoble]

Agreed. Slowish but useable. Thanks!!!

[ttldomination]

Hm, it's 11:08 on my PC, and it appears that the site has hit the floor again. Can't navigate to the home page.

- Sunny G.

[MechEng83]

...aaaaand now it's broken....

[Nemo]

Me too. I was getting delays of 2-3 seconds up until a couple of minutes ago, but now things aren't loading for me.

[devodl]

Yep, not responding for me. No login, no pages.

[tim-tim]

Took about 24-25 seconds for initial page load. Once in the site I was able to click through pretty easily - not blazing fast, but not slow enough to do anything else during the wait period.

It has also stopped working for me.

[MrBasse]

And, for me at least, it is completely frozen again. I've been staring at an 3/8" OLDHAM COUPLING HUB (FC14-085) for four minutes watching the little status bar spin in circles...

[sanddrag]

Not that you need any more confirmation, but it seemed fine just before 11AM Eastern, and now is just like yesterday. Not loading.

EDIT: Kind of hit or miss. Seems to be loading after a couple minutes delay.

[mklinker]

Bummer......I feel really bad for Andy and his staff. I am certain that they have spent the whole weekend working on this.

[Nemo]

I wouldn't mind waiting another week if that's what it takes to let people figure out what the issues are.

[MrBasse]

But by next week you are getting into travel times for the holidays. I don't want to think of how much complaining that could start...

[Bochek]

Is anyone else having problems loading pages already? my average page load is 2-3 mins.

- Adam

[ttldomination]

Update: The page is loading now, but the latency is ridiculous, on the order of minutes.

- Sunny G.

[sanddrag]

It just now got a lot better. Just opened 10 product tabs and they loaded as fast as I could open them.

[Mr. Rip]

Seems normal again.

Mr. Rip

[tim-tim]

I am now able to get on the website, again. Still taking over 20secs to load homepage. Loading individual product pages is taking anywhere from 2-4secs.

I wouldn't mind postponing another week, but we are no tthe ones making that call.

[Nemo]

My load times are more like they were before yesterday now. But who knows how many people are in there at the moment. People should go in and click away to get the load back up.

[Ian Curtis]

It appears to be working now. I was getting the 5+ minute waits to load a page as well, and around 8:25 (Pacific) the load times went down to around 5 seconds.

[Phyrxes]

Update: I went from the page not loading at all to it appearing to function normally with minimal latency in the span of about 3 minutes.

[MechEng83]

Either it's fixed now, or the majority of users have dropped out, so it's able to function again.

[David Brinza]

The site was reasonably responsive at 11:00 am (a few seconds lag), then became sluggish (almost a dead stop) by 11:15 am. Now the site responds quickly. I wonder how many tried this exercise and how it compared to the load on the site from yesterday.

[Andy Baker]

Thank you all for helping with this test.

Sincerely,
Andy

[Coach Norm]

Here's hoping that the reopening will be successful this afternoon. My was slow at first but seem reasonable during the test period.

Thanks to all the AndyMark staff for providing this to teams.

[Whippet]

As of 2:19 Eastern, FIRST Choice appears to be down again.

EDIT: Finally got the page to load. Hopefully the load times will be at least a little bit longer than the shopping cart timer this time.

[ttldomination]

I just did a refresh, and it seems to be fine. There's noticeable latency, which doesn't bode well for 3 PM, but it's up.

- Sunny G.

[HeyLookABurrito]

So who is ready for round 2? Us vs Bandwith

[1306scouting]

Did the SSL certificate just change for anyone else? Chrome just popped up and gave me the "invalid certificate" warning page, and it appears it's now authenticating with a self-signed certificate.

Is this something on my end or are other people seeing it as well?

[DonRotolo]

"Ths webpage is not available" after submitting my password...:mad:

Edit: Now nothing is working. sigh.

[magnets]

I too got an SSL error, and now, no website. They could be taking it down 30 minutes before to prepare.

[team222badbrad]

I have the same issue. I was just browsing a few moments ago finalizing my list and I got this:

"You have asked Firefox to connect securely to www.firstchoicebyandymark.com, but we can't confirm that your connection is secure.

Normally, when you try to connect securely, sites will present trusted identification to prove that you are going to the right place. However, this site's identity can't be verified."

[Andy Baker]

Folks,

After this morning's test, we are verifying some upgrades. This included an SSL switch. These tweaks are being finalized now. The site will be up intermittently as these changes are still taking place.

Sincerely,
Andy

[DonRotolo]

THANK YOU, clearly we can have patience when we know it's being tweaked. Andy, you are the best!

[1306scouting]

Folks,

After this morning's test, we are verifying some upgrades. This included an SSL switch. These tweaks are being finalized now. The site will be up intermittently as these changes are still taking place.

Sincerely,
Andy

With all due respect to everything you and AndyMark do for FIRST, switching to a self-signed SSL certificate and then asking thousands of people to enter their credit card numbers is not acceptable.

Thanks for keeping us up to date.

[DonRotolo]

OK, things seem to be working well at t -15:00

[Bryce Paputa]

With all due respect to everything you and AndyMark do for FIRST, switching to a self-signed SSL certificate and then asking thousands of people to enter their credit card numbers is not acceptable.

Thanks for keeping us up to date.

You aren't entering credit card numbers, you're using the FIRST Choice credits, although I guess it is the same idea.

[JohnFogarty]

I'm getting a little lag, but that may be the connection that I have to be on today.

[DonRotolo]

You aren't entering credit card numbers, you're using the FIRST Choice credits, although I guess it is the same idea.
You need a credit card to pay for the shipping...

[MysterE]

Everything seems a OK for us here in Baton Rouge.

[DonRotolo]

If you have not yet logged in to First Choice, do so now and enter at least the contact info and shipping address in "My Account", This will save you a lot of grief later...

[magnets]

With all due respect to everything you and AndyMark do for FIRST, switching to a self-signed SSL certificate and then asking thousands of people to enter their credit card numbers is not acceptable.

Thanks for keeping us up to date.

I don't see that it's self-signed. However, the certificate does not match the name of the site.
EDIT: yup, it's self-signed. Chrome didn't catch that. Weird.

[geomapguy]

Same in Alexandria

[Whippet]

The site is getting really laggy again...

[Joe Ross]

With all due respect to everything you and AndyMark do for FIRST, switching to a self-signed SSL certificate and then asking thousands of people to enter their credit card numbers is not acceptable.

Are you expecting that someone will spoof or MITM first choice in the next 3 hours? Otherwise, I'm not sure what the objection is to a self signed certificate. The data is still encrypted.

I'm not seeing a self-signed certificate anyway. Back to the AlphaSSL certificate it was using yesterday.

[itsjustmrb]

I wonder if all the teams that are trying to get 3D printers should log onto a separate website.

[Christopher149]

uh oh, here we go again.

[ttldomination]

5 minutes to go and looks like the website is back on its knees.

- Sunny G.

[DonRotolo]

I wonder if all the teams that are trying to get 3D printers should log onto a separate website.They can do this tomorrow, there is no advantage to being "first" for the lottery

[sanddrag]

Aaaaaand, it looks like we're back to yesterday's grand opening performance.

[magnets]

Are you expecting that someone will spoof or MITM first choice in the next 3 hours? Otherwise, I'm not sure what the objection is to a self signed certificate. The data is still encrypted.

I'm not seeing a self-signed certificate anyway. Back to the AlphaSSL certificate it was using yesterday.

In chrome, I see the alpha SSL like you. However, firefox/internet explorer gives me a scary error saying the certificate is both self signed, and not for this site.

Can somebody else confirm that it's bad in firefox?

[peronis]

sooo laggy

[DonRotolo]

It is laggy but functioning from here.

[jspatz1]

Pages are loading fairly promptly for me.

[joelg236]

Works here.

[Cecil]

I'm stuck trying to log in… Nothing seems to load for me

[DonRotolo]

OK, count to 30 and...GO!STOP!

[sanddrag]

From @FRCTeams 1 minute agoThe #FIRSTChoice site is still under construction and will not be ready for traffic today.and thenWe will post the new #FIRSTChoice opening time & date with at least 24 hours notice. We sincerely apologize for this massive inconvenience.

[rberglund]

I'm not seeing any pictures

[Ken Streeter]

Just saw the following text come up on the "FIRST Choice" link graphic on the AndyMark site:

"The FIRST Choice site is still under construction and will not be ready
for traffic today. We will post the new opening time with 24 hours notice."

It's definitely a new announcement, as I was just on the same page three minutes ago, and a different message was present in the same place. Looks like a second postponement is the decision of the day...

-----

I just want to express my thanks to all those at AndyMark and FIRST who are working on this issue. I'm a real big fan of having FIRST Choice instead of the old way the kit only included items for which there was enough for all teams, just to have most teams end up with a lot of items that weren't specifically useful to them. The FIRST Choice approach is highly preferred, from my perspective, to the old approach.

We'll be patient while AndyMark and FIRST resolve the issue causing the problems with the web site. We know they'll succeed, as like the teams they inspire, they don't give up!

[JohnFogarty]

Things are getting slow.

[Brandon_L]

Is it just me, or is there nowhere on the individual pages where I can see how many credits I have remaining? I don't see it. (as of right now, 2:59, I was expecting to see a 'you have 0 credits' somewhere on the ordering pages)

[magnets]

new tweet
We will post the new #FIRSTChoice opening time & date with at least 24 hours notice. We sincerely apologize for this massive inconvenience.

:(

[Bob Steele]

The FIRST Choice site is still under construction and will not be ready
for traffic today. We will post the new opening time with 24 hours notice.


Is this a change to the opening credits on the Andy Mark site?
R

[MooreteP]

And were off!

[MysterE]

Just got this Twitter from FRC Teams:

The #FIRSTChoice site is still under construction and will not be ready for traffic today.
We will post the new #FIRSTChoice opening time & date with at least 24 hours notice. We sincerely apologize for this massive inconvenience.

[HeyLookABurrito]

Tried to log on 10 min ago still spinning wheel of death......

[Andy Baker]

All,

The web site is not right yet. We are postponing again. Sorry for this news and our lack of readiness. We would rather make it correct and hold the release than open it up poorly.

We are not sure at this minute when it will open, but there will be a 24 hour notification before that opening happens.

Sincerely,
Andy

[jspatz1]

"We will post the new #FIRSTChoice opening time & date with at least 24 hours notice. We sincerely apologize for this massive inconvenience."

[MooreteP]

Or not, said we didn't have credits.
Will login, AGAIN!!!

[Bob Steele]

Incredible. Another fail
I am speechless

[MrBasse]

So much for not having to do this during the work day. Looks like I'll have to find out when this is so I can plan a day long project for students so we can get what we need this year. Saturday seemed like such a great idea...

[peronis]

delayed again..... i rushed home just for this..:rolleyes: I hope they will take the data from right now, and purchase the server and/or isp that can handle it.

[Abrakadabra]

And... we're done...

Move along folks ... nothing to see here.

[1306scouting]

Are you expecting that someone will spoof or MITM first choice in the next 3 hours? Otherwise, I'm not sure what the objection is to a self signed certificate. The data is still encrypted.

I'm not seeing a self-signed certificate anyway. Back to the AlphaSSL certificate it was using yesterday.

It's bad security practice, and calls into question how well the data is safeguarded. I'm okay with using self-signed for my personal projects where I'm just encrypting a stream; I expect better from a commercial site with real use and real consequences for a data breach.

Looks like it doesn't matter anyway. I applaud AndyMark for being willing to make this call instead of the website having issues while live.

[MysterE]

If you like your 3d printer, you can keep your 3d printer. . .

Ok, never-mind. Have a good Sunday everyone. Keep on truckin away Andy. I can't imagine how frustrating this is for you and your team.

[Kevin Ray]

At 3:01 it keeps saying that I don't have enough points (for my first selection)!

arrggggghhhhh

[DonRotolo]

Ta ta everyone, as we all know the 3rd time's the charm.

[sanddrag]

Are we going to have a "FIRST Choice Report" following the investigation to determine the root cause?

[cbale2000]

If you like your 3d printer, you can keep your 3d printer. . .

This situation does call to mind a certain other website doesn't it? :rolleyes:

Well, hopefully 3rd time will be the charm.

[Clem1640]

Crash and burn...

[adlasa]

In my opinion this is unacceptable, Andymark is just wasting everyone's time. I postponed my Sunday plans on the understanding that the site would be fixed!

They should have allowed more time to fix the problem and not subject everyone to this time waster :| . I understand that it is hard to troubleshoot a large site but they could have at least given themselves more time to fix the problem, rather than give false promises.

[FrankJ]

Thanks Andymark for making a prompt decision to delay. I know this is as frustrating to you as to us.

[cgmv123]

To reiterate: postponed indefinitely. >=24-hours notice before it gets reopened.

They need to switch the initial opening to a lottery based system. Give your top ~10 choices within a 2 week window and let an algorithm sort out who gets what.

[marccenter]

No points provided for FRC Team 3548...

[blackwood]

if I ever get in I think I'll order some health care

[magnets]

All,

The web site is not right yet. We are postponing again. Sorry for this news and our lack of readiness. We would rather make it correct and hold the release than open it up poorly.

We are not sure at this minute when it will open, but there will be a 24 hour notification before that opening happens.

Sincerely,
Andy

While this isn't great, I'm really glad you guys made the right call. Before we all get super frustrated, remember that the other option would be what happened last year, and nobody wants that. I'm in favor of delaying and giving all teams a 24 hour notice so that its fair.

[marccenter]

I like the lottery system idea (groups of 100 teams).

Let the rookies all get first crack at it. One hour per group of 100 teams.
Server should not crash and burn this way.

So, it takes a couple of days to get all 5000 teams...

Thoughts?

[Wayne C.]

To reiterate: postponed indefinitely. >=24-hours notice before it gets reopened.

They need to switch the initial opening to a lottery based system. Give your top ~10 choices within a 2 week window and let an algorithm sort out who gets what.

agreed This is ridiculous. why do we keep repeating the same mistakes in FIRST?

[DonRotolo]

I like the lottery system idea (groups of 100 teams).

Let the rookies all get first crack at it. One hour per group of 100 teams.
Server should not crash and burn this way.

So, it takes a couple of days to get all 5000 teams...

Thoughts?

No, any lottery needs to be open to all, and some kind of algorithm determines what you get

[Brian C]

At 3:01 it keeps saying that I don't have enough points (for my first selection)!

arrggggghhhhh


Kevin

Save the frustration for build season. :p

[Cory]

I like the lottery system idea (groups of 100 teams).

Let the rookies all get first crack at it. One hour per group of 100 teams.
Server should not crash and burn this way.

So, it takes a couple of days to get all 5000 teams...

Thoughts?

Or just put the website on a server that can handle 3000 people all trying to place orders at once.

How many people do you think are purchasing something right now from any major company's website? Over 3000, for sure. They don't have any issues.

This really shouldn't be very hard, but FIRST's history is littered with cases of not being able to handle the volume of web traffic that can be predicted fairly easily.

[JohnFogarty]

I like the lottery system idea (groups of 100 teams).

Let the rookies all get first crack at it. One hour per group of 100 teams.
Server should not crash and burn this way.

So, it takes a couple of days to get all 5000 teams...

Thoughts?

There are plenty of websites in the world than handle a volume of 5000 simultaneous users. They will solve the problem and then things will move on. There is no need for that kind of inefficient system unless the website problem cannot be resolved.

[Nirvash]

While this isn't great, I'm really glad you guys made the right call. Before we all get super frustrated, remember that the other option would be what happened last year, and nobody wants that. I'm in favor of delaying and giving all teams a 24 hour notice so that its fair.

Agreed, delaying isn't fun, but it is the better choice in the end.

Are we going to have a "FIRST Choice Report" following the investigation to determine the root cause?

I would actually find that really interesting to read. (Though I don't expect one to really be made)

[seg9585]

If you like your 3d printer, you can keep your 3d printer. . .

Ok, never-mind. Have a good Sunday everyone. Keep on truckin away Andy. I can't imagine how frustrating this is for you and your team.

Haha good one. Although so far, the Obamacare website has had way more success than FIRST Choice's site.

[mr_yes]

I'm all for AM delaying FC until it is good enough. I'm just worried that, even with 24 hours notice, I'll miss the opening. What are the most reliable communication channels for updates?

[cgmv123]

Or just put the website on a server that can handle 3000 people all trying to place orders at once.

How many people do you think are purchasing something right now from any major company's website? Over 3000, for sure. They don't have any issues.

This really shouldn't be very hard, but FIRST's history is littered with cases of not being able to handle the volume of web traffic that can be predicted fairly easily.

It's not worth it for FIRST/AndyMark to invest in a web server that can handle 2000+ connections for 30 minutes when it only needs to handle at most* 10 connections for the rest of the season.

A 2 week lottery window would spread out the connections.

*Except maybe kickoff.

[cgmv123]

I'm all for AM delaying FC until it is good enough. I'm just worried that, even with 24 hours notice, I'll miss the opening. What are the most reliable communication channels for updates?

@FRCTeams (http://www.twitter.com/frcteams) on Twitter

[Cory]

It's not worth it for FIRST/AndyMark to invest in a web server that can handle 2000+ connections for 30 minutes when it only needs to handle at most* 10 connections for the rest of the year.

A 2 week lottery window would spread out the connections.

*Except maybe kickoff.

I'm no expert in webhosting, but I'm pretty sure you can pay someone who does this for a living to host your website for a short duration.

[Akash Rastogi]

So much for not having to do this during the work day. Looks like I'll have to find out when this is so I can plan a day long project for students so we can get what we need this year. Saturday seemed like such a great idea...

Who knows, they might be able to open it on the 21st. Plus, a full week would be ample time to find the issues and solve them.

[thefro526]

In my opinion this is unacceptable, Andymark is just wasting everyone's time. I postponed my Sunday plans on the understanding that the site would be fixed!

They should have allowed more time to fix the problem and not subject everyone to this time waster :| . I understand that it is hard to troubleshoot a large site but they could have at least given themselves more time to fix the problem, rather than give false promises.

Andymark isn't 'Just wasting everyone's time'.

Yesterday, it took about 2-2.5hrs for someone to conclusively delay FIRST Choice's Opening after people had wasted that time trying to log in and check out.

Today, it took less than 10 minutes (from 3pm) for AM to come out, admit fault and delay the opening. They're being extremely sensitive of other people's time here.

Yes, the situation sucks, but we'll get through it.

If anything, this is more of a reason for someone at HQ to look into a system that can handle 3000+ users at once. The FIRST site usually goes down after kick-off, and as we've seen, FC is susceptible to the same problem.

[Kevin Ray]

cgmv123:NO WAY should we have a lotto for parts!!! Then it's back to luck for who gets equipped as they would like to be. This is the very reason FIRSTchoice was revamped to the way it is now. It provides a platform (or will) wherein everyone has equal footing. AndyMark is working like mad, I'm sure, to remedy the situation. I only think they should not rush it. So it takes until Wednesday to get sorted out. At least people will have plenty of time to plan their day.

[JohnFogarty]

It's not worth it for FIRST/AndyMark to invest in a web server that can handle 2000+ connections for 30 minutes when it only needs to handle at most* 10 connections for the rest of the season.

A 2 week lottery window would spread out the connections.

*Except maybe kickoff.

Considering that hosting like this can be purchased for a month by month basis, I don't see why not.

[Steven Donow]

I'm all for a lottery system to determine getting into FIRST Choice(at this point), but I'm sure FIRST sees that as an almost last-resort in terms of fairness; I think we can agree that the way FIRST Choice is now (without server overload issues) is the most fair way, and FIRST is always a proponent of fairness.

Anyway, I'm confident that everything will be fine in the end and we'll all move on with the rest of the season. FIRST or Andymark are trying their hardest and not doing anything wrong, and in the grand scheme of FIRST, this is such a minor thing for the world of FIRST to remain hung up on.

[Jon Stratis]

I understand that people are frustrated, I am to. It's a frustrating situation for all of us, including those at FIRST and AndyMark, I'm sure. But honestly, I think they're doing the right thing, for the right reasons here. The site isn't working correctly yet. If they went ahead and opened it up, what would we have? Getting logged in and getting your stuff ordered would be a question of luck, like last year. People would feel like they got cheated out of what they wanted, like they did last year. In the end, everyone would be here complaining just like they did last year.

Instead, FIRST and AndyMark has made the decision that the process should be fair and as smooth as possible for everyone. In order to do that, they've had to postpone the opening twice. And what do they get for trying to do the right thing for all of us? People coming on here and complaining about what they're doing. Lets all take a deep breath, think things through, and publicly THANK those doing the work for trying to give us a great experience when it's finally open.

[Whippet]

Andymark isn't 'Just wasting everyone's time'.

Yesterday, it took about 2-2.5hrs for someone to conclusively delay FIRST Choice's Opening after people had wasted that time trying to log in and check out.

Today, it took less than 10 minutes (from 3pm) for AM to come out, admit fault and delay the opening. They're being extremely sensitive of other people's time here.

Yes, the situation sucks, but we'll get through it.

I concur. AndyMark is handling this very professionally, and I believe that they are giving the appropriate response given the circumstances.

[Carolyn_Grace]

Haha good one. Although so far, the Obamacare website has had way more success than FIRST Choice's site.

I haven't had any success with Obamacare website! Trying that again in a few hours...

...Meanwhile, I want to express gratitude towards the AndyMark crew. I am absolutely certain that they are all more frustrated about this situation than any of us.

Their customer service has ALWAYS been impeccable. Their business ethics top-notch, and their employees are *all* hardworking and wonderful people. I have no doubt that they are working non-stop to figure this out.

Sure, some of us came home early to try and log-on, others had to rearrange plans unexpectedly, but I'm sure that some AndyMark employees have given up their entire weekend over this, and that they probably aren't going to get much sleep until it's fixed. They had plans too, they have families, holiday parties, Christmas shopping, football to watch...but all of that is on hold while they try and get this fixed.

They are working their butts off.
And I am grateful for it.

[seg9585]

I'm not an expert on web traffic or sysadmin/IT, but I feel like 3000 connections is not a very large number to tax a single server with. If all the images were hosted externally and the only page generation processes were text-based (or even pre-generated with the only page generation and database calls during the actual ordering), I don't see why an 8-core Xeon couldn't handle it.

Even small websites on Black Friday get taxed orders of magnitude larger, and have a lot more products to navigate (more database entries and parameters).

Maybe this is a case of needing to go simpler. As in, html-based until carts are generated and CCs are taken.

[Nirvash]

Considering that hosting like this can be purchased for a month by month basis, I don't see why not.

While I can't say what type of server they run, looking at the tracert information, I would say they are doing exactly that.

[mrnoble]

I will play Pollyanna.

This unpleasant exercise, while frustrating, is one of many illustrations of the success (and therefore growth) of FRC and of STEM education in general. More people "get it" and want in. Another personal example: two years ago, registering for our regional was no rush, as we could get in a week or two after it began. Last year, we were graciously informed that we needed to hurry. This year, it filled up within an hour, and I was glad we jumped when we did.

I'd also say that we are lucky to be working with people like Andy who are honest and forthright, and who are sincerely trying to make FRC successful by adding new options and trying new ideas. FRC and the companies that provide us with new and innovative products every year have taken this event to a place where I'm very comfortable saying it's the best thing I've been involved in in 13 years as a teacher, and that I see an even better future for it.

Chin up, Andy. Most of us really are very grateful for your work, and feel for you as you deal with website problems.

[rees2001]

I think George W. Bush said it...Best?

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." —


It is frustrating to have re-arranged both my Saturday and Sunday for this.

[magnets]

I'm no expert in webhosting, but I'm pretty sure you can pay someone who does this for a living to host your website for a short duration.

That's what chief delphi does (or at least used to do). When build season starts, the number of users gets close to 1,000 on at a time, so the server is improved/more servers are added to keep the site running well.

I have a hard time believing that FIRST and AndyMark aren't able to predict the number of people who will be using the website, and that the site crashes because of the sheer number of people on it. I think it's some type of software issue where the web server has a memory leak or becomes unresponsive if a certain series of actions are performed.

That being said, the site has been in development for a while now, and I think the goal of making it work before kickoff may be a little bit unrealistic, so I'm curious to see how FIRST will respond with a new solution to get the parts out.

[computer411]

Andy,

Thank you and your team for all of your hard work on the FIRST Choice website.

I would like to also offer any assistance I can to help get the site into a finished state. The FIRST Community has a lot of talented people that I think would be willing to pick of the challenge of getting the site into its finalized state, if you need help.

Once again thank you for all for your hard work, and we eagerly await the announcement of the grand opening of FIRST Choice 2014!

[Ed Sparks]

I'm of an age and FIRST experience level (18 years now) that I can remember what it was like before AndyMark helped us with convenient offerings of needed parts. I'm gratefull for all they do for us and I'll cut these guys some slack ......

If you think this is frustrating, just wait until you get the game rules :eek:

[mman1506]

I know vex's product release stream had 3000+ viewers and just as many or more probably went to vex's site. Vex had no problem handling the traffic without any slowdowns even while continually updating the site.

While it can't be easy to handle that traffic I can't imagine it would be that difficult to handle a known number of visitors.

[rees2001]

I'm of an age and FIRST experience level (18 years now) that I can remember what it was like before AndyMark helped us with convenient offerings of needed parts. I'm gratefull for all they do for us and I'll cut these guys some slack ......

If you think this is frustrating, just wait until you get the game rules :eek:

No doubt Ed. I remember when your team number had a few less digits. This really is a minor inconvenience. I would rather forget the days that the only real way to get your KOP was to go to NH, a "Kit Frame" consisted of a couple of 2x4 tube extrusions, a bevel gear set, and a couple of drill motors with plastic mounts, and tape measures were legal/illegal/legal/illegal. Can't wait for those rules

Andy you take as long as you need. We still love.

[coalhot]

I know vex's product release stream had 3000+ viewers and just as many or more probably went to vex's site. Vex had no problem handling the traffic without any slowdowns even while continually updating the site.

VEX did use youtube for their stream, they didn't use any sort of private hosting/custom site.

I am wondering why Andymark didn't purchase 3 months of hosting from a place like Amazon. They charge by usage, and there wouldn't be that much of an issue (I'm sure at any given moment, there are more than 3,000 users on Amazon).

Kudos to Andy and crew for trying to get it right though. It's better for them to cancel and reschedule then for a select few people getting in. I'm looking forward to using the system when rescheduled.

[mman1506]

VEX did use youtube for their stream, they didn't use any sort of private hosting/custom site.

.

Oh, I know that. I was just using the youtube stream viewer count to estimate the traffic on their site.

[Andy Baker]

Folks,

We are putting together a report for FIRST tonight, and we have a meeting with them tomorrow. As soon as a decision for a re-release is made, I am sure that FIRST and our staff here at AndyMark will work hard to communicate this new info through our respective channels.

I personally appreciate your support and patience, but I also know that your time and passion about FIRST are very important. You are right in saying that this delay and waste of time is unacceptable. For that, I am sorry. Also, I do appreciate the time our staff has made to get this process working and I do promise that we will have a sound FIRST Choice service soon.

Sincerely,
Andy Baker

[MooreteP]

Folks,

We are putting together a report for FIRST tonight, and we have a meeting with them tomorrow. As soon as a decision for a re-release is made, I am sure that FIRST and our staff here at AndyMark will work hard to communicate this new info through our respective channels.

I personally appreciate your support and patience, but I also know that your time and passion about FIRST are very important. You are right in saying that this delay and waste of time is unacceptable. For that, I am sorry. Also, I do appreciate the time our staff has made to get this process working and I do promise that we will have a sound FIRST Choice service soon.

Sincerely,
Andy Baker

Thanks Andy.

Just like our robots, if they worked well the first time we turned them on, we would be suspicious.:D

BTW, where are the waterproof cameras?:confused:

How about making the relaunch in the evening,(if it is during this week) when most of us (sorry, West Coast) are available?
The 3:00 time was better for Hawaii, of that I am sure.

I would be cool with next Saturday. Multi-tasking with wrapping gifts and cooking dinner and watching football worked for me yesterday and today.

[Foster]

"xyzTeam9876" Wow, I could do a much better job in doing a website. Just buy some cloud service, some HTML, really it isn't hard"

/sigh

There is more to e-commerce than just the 7 minutes you need to interact. Ton's of suppliers sent product. Need to get inventoried, put into pick sites, included into the inventory, priced by "points". Track all the teams and how many points they have. Web site. Credit card to pay for shipping. Order sheets. Pick orders. Pack. Ship. Track. Deal with problem orders (wrong order, wrong items, shipping issues). Customer service.

This is all a hard task.

And while AndyMark is making a 2000% markup on free parts (do the math), this isn't their core business. Amazing robot parts for a price that you can't get from a China distributor, Sunday shipping, tech and customer support that understand that you are on a 50 day deadline (that you've blown 45 days of) with two guys Mark and Andy that lay awake at night because they have been where you are now.

Free parts to you, a bonus.

But, I see people out there with their hands up going "Hey FIRST pick me for FIRST Choice. I want to be the site for that next year!". Go for it, I'm your first fan! You are a rock star!

The rest of you need to shut up. Sorry that that sounded harsh. You spent $6000 to be part of FIRST. Suppliers spent thousands in donations of parts. AM is trying their best to glue you together. FIRST isn't a business model, it's a donation model. Mark and Andy are smart guys, and I'm sure they did this with the best intentions (or has Mom says "The Road to Hell is Paved with the Best Intentions" )

It's not part of your $6000 birthright. It's free stuff as a bonus.

FIRST is partially duplicating an engineering lifecycle. Parts shortages, parts price changes, parts (insert verb) are part of the real world.

But, on a more personal level, I'm more disappointed in the mentors that have whined in this thread. Is the pressure that bad that 23 days before kickoff you are in a full meltdown? Really? Can I get a build site address so I can come Presidents Week in February to watch your team?

Mentors, we are leaders. Life is full of adversity. If this is the worst problem that you face in the next 10 weeks, I'll come kiss you on Einstein. Lead, don't teach people to whine. We have too many Lawyers that do that :rolleyes:

[Jon K.]

Folks,

We are putting together a report for FIRST tonight, and we have a meeting with them tomorrow. As soon as a decision for a re-release is made, I am sure that FIRST and our staff here at AndyMark will work hard to communicate this new info through our respective channels.

I personally appreciate your support and patience, but I also know that your time and passion about FIRST are very important. You are right in saying that this delay and waste of time is unacceptable. For that, I am sorry. Also, I do appreciate the time our staff has made to get this process working and I do promise that we will have a sound FIRST Choice service soon.

Sincerely,
Andy Baker

I posted the following message to my Facebook earlier, but I feel would better serve people here on Delphi.

"Dear AndyMark, Inc.,
I know a lot of people are angry right now, but they clearly are the ones who don't get GP. Being a long time FIRSTer, I remember when the KoP was the KoP, and you were grateful to just get that. The fact that we have this awesome new service with FIRST Choice is fantastic. I was a beta tester for FIRST choice this year, and there were no major issues. The fact that you have been open about everything has been fantastic. While you may only hear a lot of the negative today, please remember that there are still a ton of us in the FIRST community that appreciate the service you are offering us. I for one would rather continue to have the opening be postponed then to have massive issues dealing with it later. You can't please everyone, but at least you try.

Thanks again for all the hard work you do for us in FIRST.

Jon"

Also, I would just like to remind everyone of a time, not too long ago, where FIRST itself couldn't handle registration. It was something that was dealt with, and was something they had to learn and grow from. I know many of the people who work at AndyMark personally, and know that they all take this very seriously. They are some of the most dedicated people in the FIRST community.

I would like to once again applaud Andy, and the entire AndyMark team for all their work on this!

[Gdeaver]

Wow, My wife rolled out 2 major cloud software projects in 2013. They just worked on roll out. Minor revisions in a month later update. With OB care and the nightmares allot of my friends are having with software roll outs and now the First Choice melt down, I'm going to walk upstairs and bow before HER MAGNIFICENCE.

[Andrew Schreiber]

It's not worth it for FIRST/AndyMark to invest in a web server that can handle 2000+ connections for 30 minutes when it only needs to handle at most* 10 connections for the rest of the season.

A 2 week lottery window would spread out the connections.

*Except maybe kickoff.

Not to knock Andy/FC crew, merely as an interest party - really, I'm just curious what exactly is happening here. Perhaps, after all of this is happening the developers would be kind enough to give the community a lessons learned document such that we can use this as a teachable moment on the difficulties of developing this type of system.

[itsjustmrb]

In my opinion this is unacceptable, Andymark is just wasting everyone's time. I postponed my Sunday plans on the understanding that the site would be fixed!

They should have allowed more time to fix the problem and not subject everyone to this time waster :| . I understand that it is hard to troubleshoot a large site but they could have at least given themselves more time to fix the problem, rather than give false promises.

There seem to be quite a few people upset about getting free parts. If people keep complaining, Andy and FIRST might just decide we don't need to spend 600 credits and can just use the cash in our pockets. We all need to relax and let them fix the bugs and be the Gracious Professionals that we are and receive the free parts when they become available.

Mr. B

[Coach Norm]

The rest of you need to shut up. Sorry that that sounded harsh. You spent $6000 to be part of FIRST. Suppliers spent thousands in donations of parts. AM is trying their best to glue you together. FIRST isn't a business model, it's a donation model. Mark and Andy are smart guys, and I'm sure they did this with the best intentions (or has Mom says "The Road to Hell is Paved with the Best Intentions" )

It's not part of your $6000 birthright. It's free stuff as a bonus.

FIRST is partially duplicating an engineering lifecycle. Parts shortages, parts price changes, parts (insert verb) are part of the real world.

But, on a more personal level, I'm more disappointed in the mentors that have whined in this thread. Is the pressure that bad that 23 days before kickoff you are in a full meltdown? Really? Can I get a build site address so I can come Presidents Week in February to watch your team?

Mentors, we are leaders. Life is full of adversity. If this is the worst problem that you face in the next 10 weeks, I'll come kiss you on Einstein. Lead, don't teach people to whine. We have too many Lawyers that do that :rolleyes:



Well said.

I completely agree that mentors should not only be setting the example but should also be more diligent in making sure their team understands that this complaining is not helping.

[MrBasse]

I don't blame anyone for complaining about this, it is frustrating. I changed my plans today after rushing home in a white out snowstorm yesterday to make it for the opening both times and found both efforts to be for not. Attacking AndyMark for this is unfortunate, as they are doing a great job of handling a very unfortunate situation. But when the man we look to as the face of the company comes out and says it is unacceptable...

I also don't get the whole free parts thing. According to FIRST: "FIRST Choice is a menu of items available to registered 2013 FRC teams, for free, as part of their Kit of Parts." Yes, it costs you nothing. However, FC is a part of the KOP which, unless I'm mistaken, is a part of your very costly registration fee. Coming from a team that has never had the money to pay that registration fee with more that a few hours of comfort in three years, we depend on the parts that are in FIRST Choice. A lot of what we want is what used to be given out every year to everyone. Without those "free" parts, we don't expose our students to pneumatics, perform to our expectations, test new ideas we couldn't otherwise afford, or have these "spare parts" I keep hearing other teams talk about.

That being said, it is out of our hands. I got to avoid what I was going to do today and spent the day with my daughter, so I am happy. If I have to do this during class, I'll adapt and make do. If we miss out on most of what we want/need like last year, we'll adapt and make do. We're still going to build a robot, and we will still have a great time, but we will also probably still remember the time FIRST Choice took a dump. I don't think anyone should be mad, or for that matter I don't think anyone really is mad. However, I think this might be the best place to vent if venting is needed. After all, nobody else in the world is going to understand why this website is so important to those of us on Chief Delphi.

[Gregor]

There seem to be quite a few people upset about getting free parts. If people keep complaining, Andy and FIRST might just decide we don't need to spend 600 credits and can just use the cash in our pockets. We all need to relax and let them fix the bugs and be the Gracious Professionals that we are and receive the free parts when they become available.

Mr. B

They're not free parts. FIRST Choice is part of the KOP. Since there are so many teams now, suppliers can't offer one of everything to every team, for example compressors. Everyone used to get a compressor, but now they're in FIRST Choice, and only the teams who want a compressor try and get one. It's still part of FRC that we pay for, they're not just free toys that we can play with that might be useful.

[DonRotolo]

It's a frustrating situation for all of us, including those at FIRST and AndyMark, I'm sure.It takes a lot of guts to come out and tell folks that your website has failed, for the second time. I admire the folks behind all this, and having been in a similar situation, do not envy them one bit. I mean, do you think Andy was happy to have to write that message?

Believe me, this 'problem' was not due to a lack of effort or planning or testing. Sometimes, things happen. I for one am cutting them all the slack they want, even if this doesn't fly until next year.

(On the other hand: We are all problem solvers, we love to learn from problems others encounter, and so releasing that report Andy mentioned would be fascinating, for me at least.)If this is the worst problem that you face in the next 10 weeks, I'll come kiss you on Einstein. Honest, you have to believe me, this is definitely not the worst, please just don't kiss me! :p

[itsjustmrb]

They're not free parts. FIRST Choice is part of the KOP. Since there are so many teams now, suppliers can't offer one of everything to every team, for example compressors. Everyone used to get a compressor, but now they're in FIRST Choice, and only the teams who want a compressor try and get one. It's still part of FRC that we pay for, they're not just free toys that we can play with that might be useful.

I respectfully disagree. I am pretty sure few, if any, paid their entry fee in order to get FIRST choice parts and are totally depending on them to build their robot. My point was that if we keep complaining about the unfortunate circumstances that are taking place, we might as well just pay for the compressors, because people are doing their best to get the parts to you free of charge. And yes, i am aware that we pay shipping charges, which we should...unless that is part of the registration fees also. I still consider them free or bonus parts. I did not pay $13,000 in registration fees to depend on FIRST choice parts, but I do appreciate the effort that is taking place to make them available.

It is not my intent to start a flame war here. If you would like to discuss this in more detail, please feel free to send me a pm.

Tia,

Mr. B

[jsasaki]

There seem to be quite a few people upset about getting free parts. If people keep complaining, Andy and FIRST might just decide we don't need to spend 600 credits and can just use the cash in our pockets. We all need to relax and let them fix the bugs and be the Gracious Professionals that we are and receive the free parts when they become available.

Mr. B

you're getting them for free? :confused: we're paying thousands of dollars for these parts :confused:

[mrnoble]

Registration fees have been, for at least the 10 years I can recall, at least as high as they are now. KOP is part of that, sure, but personally I wouldn't have ever paid 5 or 6K for a box of metal and plastic and a controller. I've always thought of the entry fee as providing my team with a professionally designed game, a large, professionally designed and built playing field, rental of a top-notch facility and equipment for competition, and training for all of the important people who make the competitions run smoothly. I know there are often glitches, but I've participated in enough other events (such as non-FIRST robotics, STEM clubs, and pumpkin-tossing catapults) to greatly appreciate the high bar FRC sets each year.

[JB987]

you're getting them for free? :confused: we're paying thousands of dollars for these parts :confused:

I respectfully disagree with the premise. Even though the ability to take part in the process requires a registration status for the season it doesn't automatically follow that your registration payment is paying for any part of the items you receive from FC. In years prior to FC the registration fee was the same amount and you only got the same KOP that every other team of the same status got, with no options to order various components for just the cost of shipping as we have today with FC.

[Steven Donow]

To add to the "registration paying for FIRST Choice discussion", I don't know about this year (because it's closed currently), but in past years, many of the items in FIRST Choice had, in the description, "Donated by _______". So no, FIRST is not buying all of this stuff to give out to us.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, isn't a good portion of the kit donated parts?

[seg9585]

Registration fees have been, for at least the 10 years I can recall, at least as high as they are now. KOP is part of that, sure, but personally I wouldn't have ever paid 5 or 6K for a box of metal and plastic and a controller. I've always thought of the entry fee as providing my team with a professionally designed game, a large, professionally designed and built playing field, rental of a top-notch facility and equipment for competition, and training for all of the important people who make the competitions run smoothly. I know there are often glitches, but I've participated in enough other events (such as non-FIRST robotics, STEM clubs, and pumpkin-tossing catapults) to greatly appreciate the high bar FRC sets each year.

Who here has attempted to run events of this scale? I've organized and ran several aerospace conferences with much fewer people in attendance and a relatively trivial amount of preparation, subcontractor hiring, etc compared to FRC Regionals that themselves reach 100k or more in expenses.

$5000/team barely scratches the surface to covering the cost of this endeavor. Assuming 55 teams at a regional that equates to $275k income. I'm willing to bet simply renting out the entire venue for 5 days (with a day for setup/cleanup) costs more than that alone, not to mention the network, electrical, safety, A/V, FIRST staffing, field construction, and all other infrastructure. And on top of that we get the kit of parts (value $1500-2k?) and an entire year of folks dedicated to designing a quality game with specific requirements, getting workable hardware and software solutions out to teams, and still providing logistical and financial support to practically every team including those internationally. I am personally impressed at how cheap these regionals are to participate in..

[Steven Donow]

Who here has attempted to run events of this scale? I've organized and ran several aerospace conferences with much fewer people in attendance and a relatively trivial amount of preparation, subcontractor hiring, etc compared to FRC Regionals that themselves reach 100k or more in expenses.

$5000/team barely scratches the surface to covering the cost of this endeavor. Assuming 55 teams at a regional that equates to $275k income. I'm willing to bet simply renting out the entire venue for 5 days (with a day for setup/cleanup) costs more than that alone, not to mention the network, electrical, safety, A/V, FIRST staffing, field construction, and all other infrastructure. And on top of that we get the kit of parts (value $1500-2k?) and an entire year of folks dedicated to designing a quality game with specific requirements, getting workable hardware and software solutions out to teams, and still providing logistical and financial support to practically every team including those internationally. I am personally impressed at how cheap these regionals are to participate in..

From what I recall in past discussions, regionals don't see a dime of registration costs. Regionals are incredibly costly; even cost was one of the major factors in MAR switching over to the district model

[AdamHeard]

Who here has attempted to run events of this scale? I've organized and ran several aerospace conferences with much fewer people in attendance and a relatively trivial amount of preparation, subcontractor hiring, etc compared to FRC Regionals that themselves reach 100k or more in expenses.

$5000/team barely scratches the surface to covering the cost of this endeavor. Assuming 55 teams at a regional that equates to $275k income. I'm willing to bet simply renting out the entire venue for 5 days (with a day for setup/cleanup) costs more than that alone, not to mention the network, electrical, safety, A/V, FIRST staffing, field construction, and all other infrastructure. And on top of that we get the kit of parts (value $1500-2k?) and an entire year of folks dedicated to designing a quality game with specific requirements, getting workable hardware and software solutions out to teams, and still providing logistical and financial support to practically every team including those internationally. I am personally impressed at how cheap these regionals are to participate in..

You'd be less impressed if you knew that your registration fee doesn't go to that regional at all.

[geomapguy]

You'd be less impressed if you knew that your registration fee doesn't go to that regional at all.

But more impressed with the fundraising endeavors of Regional Directors

[seg9585]

You'd be less impressed if you knew that your registration fee doesn't go to that regional at all.

Are you sure? If this is the case, why is there a $4000 fee for a second regional? Teams don't get anything in return and competitions are merely filling their capacities.

[mrnoble]

You'd be less impressed if you knew that your registration fee doesn't go to that regional at all.

Would I be? If FIRST has figured out how to run every aspect of FLLjr, FLL, FTC, and FRC internationally, and network these thousands of kids from grade school to college scholarship with the best companies and institutions in the world, and somehow keep both their core organization and the various local and regional groups not only afloat, but expanding, then I couldn't care less.

[MechEng83]

Are you sure? If this is the case, why is there a $4000 fee for a second regional? Teams don't get anything in return and competitions are merely filling their capacities.

Talking with people who run regionals, none of the money from registration goes to paying for the costs of running a regional. The regional directors have to find sponsorship to pay for the regionals.

[geomapguy]

Talking with people who run regionals, none of the money from registration goes to paying for the costs of running a regional. The regional directors have to find sponsorship to pay for the regionals.

What about FiM, MAR, NE, and MAR. Seems like they would need it

[EricH]

What about FiM, MAR, NE, and MAR. Seems like they would need it

Part of the district system is that the event costs are cut pretty solidly. Instead of renting an arena for 4 days, setting up full A/V equipment, etc, you rent a school gym for 3 days (which is cheaper, or tends to be) and use what happens to be there already for A/V, maybe bring in a projector or two with screens. That savings doesn't necessarily get passed on to the teams, but it sure helps the RDs out when fundraising--lower target per event (though there are more events...)

[JimBowey]

Did anyone else notice that no one from FIRST stepped in and laid out how the 501c3 uses fees and donations?

[geomapguy]

Part of the district system is that the event costs are cut pretty solidly. Instead of renting an arena for 4 days, setting up full A/V equipment, etc, you rent a school gym for 3 days (which is cheaper, or tends to be) and use what happens to be there already for A/V, maybe bring in a projector or two with screens. That savings doesn't necessarily get passed on to the teams, but it sure helps the RDs out when fundraising--lower target per event (though there are more events...)

Is this why 3rd and 4th event registration is only $500/$1000

[ttakashima]

Or just put the website on a server that can handle 3000 people all trying to place orders at once.

How many people do you think are purchasing something right now from any major company's website? Over 3000, for sure. They don't have any issues.

This really shouldn't be very hard, but FIRST's history is littered with cases of not being able to handle the volume of web traffic that can be predicted fairly easily.

I wonder if FIRST has approached any of these major companies. They may need to in the future though if this keeps happening.

[Banderoonies]

Talking with people who run regionals, none of the money from registration goes to paying for the costs of running a regional. The regional directors have to find sponsorship to pay for the regionals.


This is correct. None of the regional registrations go to pay for the events. It all goes to FIRST for other expenses (which are legitimate expenses I might add) Regional directors DO raise all the funds to run the regional. That is why teams should be very appreciative of the sponsors of the events. They paid for it.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Did anyone else notice that no one from FIRST stepped in and laid out how the 501c3 uses fees and donations?

http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/annual-report-and-financials

[AdamHeard]

Did anyone else notice that no one from FIRST stepped in and laid out how the 501c3 uses fees and donations?

I wouldn't expect FIRST to come on chief to defend themselves, and them not doing so doesn't prove anything.

[Mr. Van]

cgmv123:NO WAY should we have a lotto for parts!!! Then it's back to luck for who gets equipped as they would like to be. This is the very reason FIRSTchoice was revamped to the way it is now. It provides a platform (or will) wherein everyone has equal footing.

Please, in the future, let's go to a lottery system for both limited FIRSTChoice KOP parts AND for Regional Registration. The current system is NOT "fair". If you have a good internet connection, fast fingers, and most importantly, no other pressing demands on your time at the particular moment that the thing goes "live" then you are on the "same" playing field with others. If, however, you are traveling, using a slow connection, or - gasp - have a job where you are not in control of your schedule, you are at a distinct disadvantage.

FIRSTChoice was not created to allow teams to "be equipped as they would like to be". It is a relatively good system to distribute items that are donated (THAN YOU VERY MUCH SUPPLIERS!) in quantities fewer than the total team number. It also helps to reduce the amount of stuff that is sent to teams in the KOP that they don't need or use.

A lottery for registration for regionals and FIRSTChoice KOP parts would be much better and more respectful of people's time.

Having said all of that, I very much hope that FIRSTChoice goes live when I am actually able to place an order. Considering the holidays and travel, that in itself is looking like a lottery...

- Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox

[DonRotolo]

I wouldn't expect FIRST to come on chief to defend themselves, and them not doing so doesn't prove anything.
For what it is worth, it is my understanding that FIRST employees are prohibited from posting on ChiefDelphi. I was told that by a high-ranking FIRST employee 2 years ago.

In my opinion, FIRST is generally in favor of ChiefDelphi but needs to have corporate control over their communications paths, a concept I greatly support.

[AdamHeard]

Having said all of that, I very much hope that FIRSTChoice goes live when I am actually able to place an order. Considering the holidays and travel, that in itself is looking like a lottery...


I'd really like to believe (on the basis that Andymark and FIRST itself are likely shut down) that it won't happen on the days immediately surrounding the holidays. Obviously this doesn't help people who are traveling a few days in advance, or taking long trips.

I know FIRST and AndyMark are smart enough to not announce on the 24th (or the 31st) that it's open in 24 hours....

[coalhot]

For what it is worth, it is my understanding that FIRST employees are prohibited from posting on ChiefDelphi. I was told that by a high-ranking FIRST employee 2 years ago.

In my opinion, FIRST is generally in favor of ChiefDelphi but needs to have corporate control over their communications paths, a concept I greatly support.

It's probably for the better. The FRC blog, twitter, and facebook pages are easier to control and get the correct information out when necessary. Employees with CD accounts would probably add an air of confusion here.

It's why it works when Andy Baker posts about AM. It just works.

[rsisk]

For what it is worth, it is my understanding that FIRST employees are prohibited from posting on ChiefDelphi. I was told that by a high-ranking FIRST employee 2 years ago.

In my opinion, FIRST is generally in favor of ChiefDelphi but needs to have corporate control over their communications paths, a concept I greatly support.

Haven't heard that myself... a FIRST employee as a FIRST Senior Mentor.

Might be different for folks at HQ.

[DonRotolo]

Haven't heard that myself... a FIRST employee as a FIRST Senior Mentor.

Might be different for folks at HQ.
Um, yeah, I was thinking of HQ folks, not field organization. :o

And, I may be wrong. I frequently am. :eek:

[geomapguy]

Um, yeah, I was thinking of HQ folks, not field organization. :o

And, I may be wrong. I frequently am. :eek:

Is Frank at HQ, because I'm pretty sure he's posted on CD before

[FrankJ]

Frank has referenced Chief Delphi in his blogs. I have not seen any of his posts on Chief Delphi though.

[Taylor]

Is Frank at HQ, because I'm pretty sure he's posted on CD before

Bill Miller posted on CD once, after he was no longer working for FIRST.
Any direct post from Frank here would be a parody account at best.

[David Brinza]

Did anyone else notice that no one from FIRST stepped in and laid out how the 501c3 uses fees and donations?

FIRST is required to submit Form 990 to the IRS annually. It is a public record. You can view the "US FOUNDATION FOR THE INSPIRATION & RECOGNITION SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY" IRS Form 990 for 2012 and earlier through sites such as guidestar.org

As you might expect, all teams receive "fair market value" for the "Kit of parts and program participation" for the program fees paid.

[nixiebunny]

The current system is NOT "fair". If you have a good internet connection, fast fingers, and most importantly, no other pressing demands on your time at the particular moment that the thing goes "live" then you are on the "same" playing field with others. If, however, you are traveling, using a slow connection, or - gasp - have a job where you are not in control of your schedule, you are at a distinct disadvantage.

I can see that this would be a problem for some people, but not for everyone. Perhaps I'm spoiled by being on a team with half a dozen mentors. Do you not have any other adults on your team capable of placing an order in your absence?

[Oblarg]

A lottery for registration for regionals and FIRSTChoice KOP parts would be much better and more respectful of people's time.

Put me firmly in this camp. Claims that the current system is more "fair" than a lottery are using a very skewed definition of "fair," as far as I can tell.

That said, there's nothing to be gained sitting here and griping about the fact that the website doesn't work (except for stress and unhappiness), so I think this'll be my first and last post in this thread. Hope it comes up soon.