Water games

[Magnetorb]

It seems to me that every year, someone speculates that this year's game will be a water game (thanks to jijiglobe for confirming this). Superficially, when I think of water games, I think of games that are played in a pool filled with water. Like standard, liquid-phase dihydrogen monoxide.

Such a game would be impractical for several reasons:

Robots can't swim in water without proper shielding, because water conducts electricity and you would have a monumental safety hazard. The robots we build all have electronics at least partially exposed, and shielding would be expensive.
Pools are expensive to build. How are they going to set up a pool 27' by 54' by 4' deep in every FRC stadium on Planet Earth? And especially in developing countries, where are they going to get 165 metric tons (according to Google) of clean water to fill each pool with?


We can't rule out water games entirely - water comes in three phases, including the much easier to handle solid phase (ice). Besides, imitation water and imitation ice could be used. Based on the various interpretations of the game hint we've seen this year, a game based on a winter sport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_sport) such as ice hockey or snowboarding seems probable. Maybe they'll put in slopes and hills. Regolith would be a nice approximation of an icy surface, but why not spice it up with artificial snow.

Extending this idea, a possibility would be a game that simulates sea ice, like in the polar regions. Most of the floor would be "ocean" with wheeled "ice floes" that robots have to climb on. The robots are like polar bears trying to survive. Aside from being the water game we've been anticipating for years, this would be sure to raise environmental awareness.

Image source (http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/SeaIce/)

[Jacob Bendicksen]

I mostly agree. While a (liquid) water game would be really cool, logistically it just won't happen. The one way I could see that happening is perhaps something like a kiddie pool that minibots have to swim in (a real nightmare, I know). I think the return of regolith as ice is probable at some point in the near future, though I think the whole 'polar bear iceberg' idea is more FLL than FRC.

[GaryVoshol]

... though I think the whole 'polar bear iceberg' idea is more FLL than FRC.

You're right, a polar bear made an appearance in two previous FLL games, Arctic Impact and Climate Connections.

(Steering this into new territory - the "water game" has been extensively discussed before.)

[cgmv123]

water conducts electricity

Pure water does not conduct electricity. Most fresh water contains minerals which conduct electricity.

[MrForbes]

Water games with robots are fun. I doubt it's something that FIRST would ever do....

We've been playing with underwater robots for several years. If you want to join the fun, enter NURC (in Phoenix). The 2014 game will be announced Jan 1st.

https://sites.google.com/site/nationalunderwaterrobotics/

....and keep an eye out for the movie, La Vida Robot (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3233418/), next fall.

[Pendulum^-1]

SeaPerch is sponsored by the Office of Naval Research and managed by the Association for Unmanned Vehicle Systems International, AUVSI.

If anyone wants to know more about the SeaPerch program, I recommend that you go to their website:

http://www.seaperch.org/index

[yash101]

I really think that by "water game", we really mean a liquid game. Some sort of non-conductive fluid like mineral oil could be a possibility (though probably not because it would be very messy).
Water is a possibility, though, because you can get some anti-conductive agents (with anti-corrosives built in). A couple drops of these inside a pool will make sure the water is non-conductive. These are the types of liquids that you would use if you were water cooling your PC (not regular liquid cooling). However, these liquids can get quite pricey, and if the cheaper ones are used, a safety hazard.

Your claim that it would be hard to build a pool in every stadium is partially true. FIRST would actually use some sort of a pop-up setup, kind of like those folding pools you get. These fields are foldable. FIRST only makes a certain number of these fields, which they transport around to the events. Remember that not every event happens at the same time.
For the 2013 game, Ultimate Ascent (as all of you know it by), the volunteer team set up the field before you arrived and dismantled it after you left. The field is modular, so it easily comes apart and folds up, making the transportation a no-brainer.

The water could be transported around with the field. An oil-tanker like truck could haul the water between the competitions.

However, it would be very impractical to do a water game because of all the problems the teams would face getting the setup complete. For those interested in water games, try the NURC (National Underwater Robotics Competition) (https://sites.google.com/site/nationalunderwaterrobotics/).

By the way, Mr Forbes, or anyone from 1726 or 842, where can I watch the kickoff (or whatever their opening ceremony is called)? I want to see what the game is! ;)

[Hallry]

For the 2013 game, Ultimate Ascent (as all of you know it by), the volunteer team set up the field before you arrived and dismantled it after you left. The field is modular, so it easily comes apart and folds up, making the transportation a no-brainer.

I wouldn't exactly call it easy or a no-brainer. It takes a lot of planing, and a lot of help. Do you know how many volunteers it takes, and how long each one works for?

FIRST would actually use some sort of a pop-up setup, kind of like those folding pools you get. These fields are foldable. FIRST only makes a certain number of these fields, which they transport around.

And when this pops after being punctured by a robot...?

The water could be transported around with the field. An oil-tanker like truck could haul the water between the competitions.

Okay, FIRST does not have an infinite money source...Just think about how much extra this would cost...purchasing 20 or so tanker trucks, paying drivers and assistants, paying for gas for each of the trucks to travel great distances over the course of 9 weeks...This would never happen. I promise.

[MrForbes]

By the way, Mr Forbes, or anyone from 1726 or 842, where can I watch the kickoff (or whatever their opening ceremony is called)? I want to see what the game is! ;)

You have the URL, just keep refreshing it...that's all there is :)

[yash101]

I wouldn't exactly call it easy or a no-brainer. It takes a lot of planing, and a lot of help. Do you know how many volunteers it takes, and how long each one works for?

I don't. However, the volunteers are amazing, efficient and know how to set up the field. They probably know how to set up the field already, so that it is just a jigsaw for them.

And when this pops after being punctured by a robot...?

That was an example. These fields would be made much stronger than that. Maybe some sort of plexiglas or acrylic, etc. could be used. A rubber gasket could seal the walls together.

Okay, FIRST does not have an infinite money source...Just think about how much extra this would cost...purchasing 20 or so tanker trucks, paying drivers and assistants, paying for gas for each of the trucks to travel great distances over the course of 9 weeks...This would never happen. I promise.

That is true. That was just an idea. However, they don't need to purchase these tanks. They could possibly rent them. However, I don't know how much that would cost. It would probably be expensive, but not as expensive as buying twenty trucks. By the way, how easy is it to get access to distilled water? I barely see more than gallon-bottles in grocery stores, and their price tags are not so tasty!

You have the URL, just keep refreshing it...that's all there is :)

Cool :). Is this your first year doing NURC?

[z_beeblebrox]

Cool :). Is this your first year doing NURC?

No. He's been participating for several years. Are you guys going to participate?

[yash101]

Currently, no. Our team first needs to get it together and actually get work done in the offseason. However, if I become the team captain next year, I will assess the efficiency of the team getting work done, and if it is good enough, give the idea of this. BTW, is 4183 doing NURC? If you are, we are probably one of the only ones in AZ not doing it. Is 2403 doing it?

[EricH]

I don't. However, the volunteers are amazing, efficient and know how to set up the field. They probably know how to set up the field already, so that it is just a jigsaw for them.
Yes and no. Some of the field is pretty standard--the siderails could go together in about half an hour for the pair with a novice crew and one experienced person, faster if everybody had experience. The problem comes when you start attaching stuff to them. That's when life gets absolutely miserable. The game-specific stuff, you probably have 2-4 people who know how to set that up, and they're leading the operation.

If the AZ volunteer coordinator is reading this, I think someone just volunteered for setup or teardown or both...



That was an example. These fields would be made much stronger than that. Maybe some sort of plexiglas or acrylic, etc. could be used. A rubber gasket could seal the walls together. And how do you expect the fields to be easily portable then? If you've ever been to an aquarium, their tank walls, particularly on the deeper ones, are on the order of a foot thick, with a glue-type seal around them. I could do the math on how much pressure the wall has to take for a given depth--that's not too hard--and then how thick it would need to be for an adequate safety factor--again, not too terribly difficult--but then figuring out assembly is going to be tough.


As far as distilled water goes, I'm thinking maybe de-ionized water may also be an alternative, and a more practical one at that--but that does involve getting the proper equipment to each venue, and then draining the water every now and again to get some more de-ionized water in.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Robots can't swim in water without proper shielding, because water conducts electricity and you would have a monumental safety hazard. The robots we build all have electronics at least partially exposed, and shielding would be expensive.Point of order: Pure water is, in fact, a terrible conductor of electricity. Really pure deionized water has resistances up to 20 megaOhms-cm. You could douse your robot in it and it'd be perfectly happy. Until it started leaching leaching ions from the steel, copper, etc. But up until then, it'd be just fine.

It'd be terribly expensive to fill a pool with water that pure, and even more so to keep it that pure... But still, it could totally happen if it meant there was a water game.

[Christopher149]

Rug Rage (1993) had water-filled balls. So, we have had a water game, but only 25 teams got to experience it.

Anyway, "water game" is such an ingrained running gag that it will likely never die, and I'm not sure we would ever actually want a water game.

[Jeffy]

I've been hoping that a kiddie pool filled with water and wiffle balls will be part of a game someday.
This seems much more likely than the entire field being a pool. (and easier to spectate)

[BBray_T1296]

Such a game would be impractical for several reasons:

Robots can't swim in water without proper shielding, because water conducts electricity and you would have a monumental safety hazard. The robots we build all have electronics at least partially exposed, and shielding would be expensive.
Pools are expensive to build. How are they going to set up a pool 27' by 54' by 4' deep in every FRC stadium on Planet Earth? And especially in developing countries, where are they going to get 165 metric tons (according to Google) of clean water to fill each pool with?



Exactly. Think about this in detail. Look at the robot you have sitting there in your shop from 2013, how it was made, and how it works. You have gearboxes, smothered in grease (or not), small filings laying around (not in the electronics [anymore]). Imagine how much of that junk will remain in a pool after your robot was tossed in, ran at %200, and fished out 3 minutes later. Once the pool was filled, an expensive task, and deionized, a more expensive task, it also must be maintained, an oppressively expensive task.

Also look at the logistics. How will FIRST convince a convention center (much less a high school) to allow "165 metric tons" of water in the building? Of course it would be designed not to spill or break (another road bump [or mountain] see posts above), but there would have to be safety implementations to prevent a swamping tidal wave from sweeping the pits and rest of the building. If the field does break (have you seen some people's robots!?! It is gonna break at least once) How are you going to drain 44 thousand gallons in an instant?

[themccannman]

Woooooosh

Guys it's a joke, it always has been, and probably always will be do to the many safety issues, and the wastefulness having an entire field made of water. I doubt anyone who has predicted a water game has actually been serious

[BBray_T1296]

Of course it is a joke, but it will never be anything but that

[themccannman]

Of course it is a joke, but it will never be anything but that

Apparently most of the people in this thread missed that.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Apparently most of the people in this thread missed that.Poe's law applies here. Sometimes it's impossible to tell whether a poster believes there will be a water game or is just playing along for fun. Similarly hard to tell whether someone explaining why it's impossible knows the supporters are joking, or is taking them seriously.

But we all know deep down inside that THIS year will be the one true water game.

[BBray_T1296]

But we all know deep down inside that THIS year will be the one true water game.

"One [water game] to rule them all!"