2014 Encrypted Competition Manual

[Rick Wagner]

I've noticed that the 2014 encrypted competition manual is not yet up at http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/. I know it's probably a bit early to look a full 10 days before kickoff, but when is the encrypted manual expected to appear?

Thanks,

Rick
FRC 3008 mentor

[Joe Ross]

The last three years (at least), it's been posted on the Wednesday before kickoff. Since the Wednesday is a holiday this year, I would expect it sometime that week, probably no earlier then Monday the 30th and no later then Thursday the 2nd.

[Rick Wagner]

The last two years (at least), it's been posted on the Wednesday before kickoff.

Thank you! There's a lot of anticipation this year in Hawaii with my new team. I'll look for it then.

[yash101]

I think they might release it tomorrow, as a Christmas Present :D

[cgmv123]

Something tells me they're still making changes to the manual.

[PayneTrain]

Something tells me they're still making changes to the manual.

They've had to adjust for everyone in the game hint thread figuring everything out... :rolleyes:

[skimoose]

I've noticed that the 2014 encrypted competition manual is not yet up at http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/. I know it's probably a bit early to look a full 10 days before kickoff, but when is the encrypted manual expected to appear?

Thanks,

Rick
FRC 3008 mentor

Usually, when the GDC is confident that the password can't be brute forced within the remaining time until kickoff. :cool:

[Ernst]

They've had to adjust for everyone in the game hint thread figuring everything out... :rolleyes:

I thought the consensus was that they released a random hint and built a game around the funniest proposals in the game hint thread. :rolleyes:

[yash101]

I can't wait till they give the manual and then the password on kickoff so I can unlock the file and find out about the game (on kickoff). By the way, is the file a locked PDF or a locked ZIP folder containing the files, or a zip folder containing the PDFs, each locked, maybe with their own passwords?!?

[Chris is me]

The file has always been one big PDF encrypted with a single password. This lets you put the PDF on a tablet, iPad, etc. in advance of Kickoff and punch in the password when you get there.

Expect it next week, not today.

[magnets]

I can't wait till they give the manual and then the password on kickoff so I can unlock the file and find out about the game (on kickoff). By the way, is the file a locked PDF or a locked ZIP folder containing the files, or a zip folder containing the PDFs, each locked, maybe with their own passwords?!?

In previous years they gave out an encrypted PDF file. I always wonder why they bother with the test file before. It seems to me that most FRC people have a computer with adobe acrobat, and that the FIRST people are good enough to encrypt a PDF file.

[Chris is me]

In previous years they gave out an encrypted PDF file. I always wonder why they bother with the test file before. It seems to me that most FRC people have a computer with adobe acrobat, and that the FIRST people are good enough to encrypt a PDF file.

There are way, way more devices and programs that read PDFs than computers running Windows with Adobe Acrobat installed. The decryption test lets you verify that your Linux or Mac computer, your Android tablet, your iPhone or iPad, or whatever you'll be using on Kickoff day definitely works. At least for me it's very much appreciated.

[magnets]

There are way, way more devices and programs that read PDFs than computers running Windows with Adobe Acrobat installed. The decryption test lets you verify that your Linux or Mac computer, your Android tablet, your iPhone or iPad, or whatever you'll be using on Kickoff day definitely works. At least for me it's very much appreciated.

As a linux user without an iPhone/iPad/Android tablet, I never thought about it that way, and I now see how it's useful.

[yash101]

Lol:Here (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-2013-manual-decryption-test)

[EricH]

Lol:Here (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-2013-manual-decryption-test)

Sorry, but you're a year off, and that manual happens to be available without encryption, and with a full set of updates and Q&A here (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/2013-competition-manual-and-related-documents). You'll just have to wait another week or so for the 2014 one.

[EricH]

Yeah. I know, but they probably will use a similar encryption technology. It doesn't seem impossible to brute-force it either. I wouldn't do that because it would be against the game, and bad sportsmanship. However, with an i7 extreme, dual GPUs, aiding the CPU and other stuff, it shouldn't be too hard.
Actually, it's against forum rules.

I will simply say this: 128-bit encryption, or something like it--and the password's a 20-30 character string. NOT crackable by brute force in the time we've got. The general consensus the last few times this was brought up is that if you actually succeed, go straight to the CIA with the successful crack and apply for a job.

[yash101]

True. Also, I don't have the materials to do so either! Intel's lowest i3, 2367 is what I work on. I deleted that last post because I don't want to encourage anyone to try that ;). But, since this can reside on an HDD, just use an SSD and state-of-the-are tech and you could possibly get it.


in short:
DONT WASTE YOUR TIME, BEING THE ONE DECRYPTING THE MANUAL, UNLESS YOU WANT TO SHELL OUT A TON OF MONEY AND RUIN THE 2014 KICKOFF FOR YOURSELF!!!
(I think that needed Caps :D)

[EricH]

Also, it probably only has the alphanumeric characters, mostly out of the dictionary.

Nice try. ANY character that can be typed is fair game. 2008's password had not one but 4 punctuation marks. Nobody got it and the letters had already been given (though not all were in the right capitalization, and none were in the right order). And the password might just be a random sequence of letters and numbers--they've done that before, too.

[JesseK]

True. Also, I don't have the materials to do so either! Intel's lowest i3, 2367 is what I work on. I deleted that last post because I don't want to encourage anyone to try that ;). But, since this can reside on an HDD, just use an SSD and state-of-the-are tech and you could possibly get it

One does not brute force using 'Intel', at least not for another several years.

The rainbow table (fastest way to brute-force something) for a typical FIRST-generated password is potentially (96^20) entries long. (96 types of characters, roughly 20 characters in length). Divide that by 2,800,000,000 and you'll get how many seconds even the fastest ASIC processors can do it in.

You have much to read and learn, grasshoppa.

[Anupam Goli]

One does not brute force using 'Intel', at least not for another several years.

The rainbow table (fastest way to brute-force something) for a typical FIRST-generated password is potentially (96^20) entries long. (96 types of characters, roughly 20 characters in length). Divide that by 2,800,000,000 and you'll get how many seconds even the fastest ASIC processors can do it in.

You have much to read and learn, grasshoppa.

That's not assuming it's AES encrypted, which wouldn't surprise me if they did. Brute force is never an efficient way of breaking any modern encryption.

[DonRotolo]

No, brute force is never efficient, but in some situations it can be useful.

Not in this case though. This is world-class encryption, with a key sufficiently long and diverse to preclude any brute force attack, or dictionary attack, or (really) any attack at all.

Frankly, you'd have a better chance of kidnapping Frank* and "torturing" it from him, or breaking into FIRST and rifling through their filing cabinets** to find a copy.

In other words: Yes, it is a convenience to have the manual, but it is as worthless as snow in Juneau*** until Kickoff.

* I bet he doesn't even know the decryption password anyway, so leave him alone please.
** I also bet they didn't leave any hard copies anywhere, anyway, so leave FIRST alone please.
*** Juneau what I mean?

[yash101]

Who cares anyways! It would be best to just wait for Kickoff. That way, you could build up your anticipation, until you are mount vesuvius, ready to explode. When KickOff comes around, you'll have a magnitude of times greater fun.

[alectronic]

Hey mods, any chance we could get this thread locked or title changed? I think the discussion is getting a little borderline (with forum rules) and the title is misleading. Thx.

[Aur0r4]

I don't usually post on Chief Delphi, but when I do its on discussions about encryption...

Unless I'm missing something, I don't see how a discussion reiterating the complete uselessness of trying to break AES encryption in a few days (or centuries) with modern computers would be a rules violation? Given the length and complexity of FIRST passwords, you start to approach "eons" in actual time to brute force an AES crack with typical computers.

I guess I think its a bit unsporting to post on a thread JUST to ask the mods to eliminate it because you don't think its useful? Just my opinion.

That being said, AES can be broken instantly, and the resources to do that are out there, but lets just say that you would have to be a "former friend of Eddie" to have those abilities at your fingertips. I'm not one, btw. But I do know how they do it.

[BBray_T1296]

Assuming 3.4GHz and 4 cores, (though this use of clock speed is entirely incorrect)
Let's just pretend we can sail along at 13.6 billion attempts per second
96^20 = 4.42 E39 possible combinations
There are 31557600 seconds in a year.
The universe is ~13.8 Billion years old

4.42 E39
(~3.16E7 * 1.36E10 * ~1.38E10)
Let's just say it would take a while.

So long, in fact, the entire lifetime of the universe from the Big Bang up until today, would be able to occur 750 Billion times before every combination was tried.

[Foster]

As a security professional, and having seen the keys they used the last years, breaking into the document in a short time isn't possible. (unless FIRST/AndyMark lends you the 2.3 million node cluster they built to run FIRST Choice :rolleyes:)

When I teach about encryption I talk about how long the message needs to be a secret. "Attack at Dawn" only needs to be safe for less than 24 hours. After dawn, the message is worthless.

So FIRST posts it on the 31'st, it only needs to hold up for 4 days. Even a short phrase "I believe that Robots ROCK!" or mangled into -> "1 b3l1eve th4t R0b0ts R0CK!" would be safe for a few weeks.

Frankly, you'd have a better chance of kidnapping Frank and "torturing" it from him.

That made me laugh. In the Industrial Intellectual Property Theft Prevention World, bribing someone is the most common case of what happens. I doubt anyone will have much success with that either.

But, as an exercise to the casual password maven, fire up your GPU clusters and have a go AFTER kickoff. I'm willing to bet lunch that it will still be working on it when the next season is coming around.

Or maybe work on CAD of the new robot .....

[IndySam]

No, brute force is never efficient, but in some situations it can be useful.

Not in this case though. This is world-class encryption, with a key sufficiently long and diverse to preclude any brute force attack, or dictionary attack, or (really) any attack at all.

Frankly, you'd have a better chance of kidnapping Frank* and "torturing" it from him, or breaking into FIRST and rifling through their filing cabinets** to find a copy.

In other words: Yes, it is a convenience to have the manual, but it is as worthless as snow in Juneau*** until Kickoff.

* I bet he doesn't even know the decryption password anyway, so leave him alone please.
** I also bet they didn't leave any hard copies anywhere, anyway, so leave FIRST alone please.
*** Juneau what I mean?

Juneau is a bad example. It is in a temperate zone and really doesn't get that cold.

[DavisC]

Frankly, you'd have a better chance of kidnapping Frank* and "torturing" it from him, or breaking into FIRST and rifling through their filing cabinets** to find a copy.


My idea was to just fly over to Russia and ask Snowden for the manual, and if they already worked up drawings for the next year's games then you can go ahead and get a peak at that ;)

[runneals]

I can't wait till they give the manual and then the password on kickoff so I can unlock the file and find out about the game (on kickoff). By the way, is the file a locked PDF or a locked ZIP folder containing the files, or a zip folder containing the PDFs, each locked, maybe with their own passwords?!?

It would be nice if they had the 'unlocked' pdfs in a locked zip folder, so teams (and people like me) don't have to enter in the password when they reopen the doc... just a thought though (although maybe zips are less secure than locked pdfs)

[runneals]

As a security professional, and having seen the keys they used the last years, breaking into the document in a short time isn't possible. (unless FIRST/AndyMark lends you the 2.3 million node cluster they built to run FIRST Choice :rolleyes:)

I've done my fair share of Cyber Defense Competitions at ISU (on blue, green, and red teams) and I would say that the easiest way would be to social engineer it out of one of people who holds the key to the fortress through an online login, just chatting on the phone, or sneaking into FIRST HQ (although they are probably smarter than you). If you are really that bored right now, you could be doing some other things, such as learning about social engineering on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=def+con+social+engineering&sm=3).

[Chris is me]

It would be nice if they had the 'unlocked' pdfs in a locked zip folder, so teams (and people like me) don't have to enter in the password when they reopen the doc... just a thought though (although maybe zips are less secure than locked pdfs)

If you need a workaround just for the day of Kickoff before you can download the unencrypted version, try going to Print and Saving to PDF at that point.

[MikeE]

Juneau is a bad example. It is in a temperate zone and really doesn't get that cold.

Try Thompson Pass just outside Valdez. Average yearly snowfall ~550" or about 46 feet!

[IndySam]

Try Thompson Pass just outside Valdez. Average yearly snowfall ~550" or about 46 feet!

Wow that's how glaciers are made which would still be a faster process than trying to use brute force to decrypt the manual.

[DonRotolo]

So are you saying that we should try brute force to make a glacier?

OK, so my Left Coast geography isn't what it should be.:o I was going to use Bemidji or Kapuskasing, but these didn't have the name recognition I needed.

I guess the point is that almost everyone reading this thread just has to wait until January 4 to learn what problem will consume their lives for the first part of 2014. You do have your game clue, isn't that enough??

[Oblarg]

You do have your game clue, isn't that enough??

What is this "enough" of which you speak? ;)

[Brandon Ha]

So if we get to the main topic. Is it out yet?

[EricH]

So if we get to the main topic. Is it out yet?

Has it been announced as being out yet? If it has not been announced, then it's probably (almost certainly) not out yet.

[Anupam Goli]

So if we get to the main topic. Is it out yet?

There's always a blog post and announcement when it's out. They always inform us of when the encrypted manual is out, so people actually download and use it on kickoff day.

[Troger]

They have apps to go along with the encrypted files. Find the app on your app store. Its called FRC Manual. I have a couple links below.

Link to FRC Manual app for Android (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.usfirst.manual.frc&hl=en)
Link to FRC Manual app for Apple (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/frc-manual/id488793605?mt=8)

[roboryan]

I would guess the 2nd of January hoping

[MikeE]

The encrypted 2014 game manual is available now.

See Frank's blog (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-information-for-2014-the-what-when-where-and-how) for details or the associated thread here on Chief Delphi (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=123897)