Aerial Assist Discussion Thread

[Canon reeves]

From what I've read you can go anywhere in white or your goalie. Anybody got and other strategies other than my zone one?

[mandy8candy]

No end game. Interesting.

I think they might add one later?

[mandy8candy]

I think the game sounds interesting. I read the manual, and I have one question. Can a "dead" robot possess a ball?

[Annemarie433]

Our team heard that at 4pm we would be able to order the balls from FIRST Choice but when we go on their website, the balls arent there. Anyone have an answer or the same problem?

Thanks and good luck teams!!! :] :]


Andy Mark sells them! There is a link floating around here somewhere.

[jax1198]

The defense against such a two ball auto mode is to park a tall defensive bot in their shot line before the match. Rather than being useless, that appendage now becomes worth 35 points. (Unless the shooter has the ability to sense the blocker and rotate to shoot around the appendage.)

I feel like there might be teams that place a goalie in front of one robot to block them during auto. In response, the scoring team moves their robot out of the way. Then, the goalie gets moved back into the way, and so on.

[alectronic]

Does anyone happen to know where the robots can start the match? Is there a line or something similar in the white zone they must start on, or do they start anywhere within the white zone? Same question applies to starting in the goalie zone.

Please make sure to read the rules :] G4 outlines this one pretty clearly.


When placed on the FIELD, each ROBOT must be:
A. in compliance with all ROBOT rules (i.e. have passed Inspection),
B. confined to its STARTING CONFIGURATION,
C. entirely within their GOALIE ZONE, or
entirely within the white ZONE and between the TRUSS and their GOALS, and
D. fully supported by the floor.

[themccannman]

I think the game sounds interesting. I read the manual, and I have one question. Can a "dead" robot possess a ball?

As the rules are currently written this is in fact an issue as a dead robot holding a ball would shut down their entire alliance. The official Q&A will answer this question so we'll be getting some clarification soon.

[nickb705]

I would think the maximum is 60. 30 for the 3 assist, 10 for going over the truss, 10 more for a catch, and then 10 for scoring the goal. Am I wrong on this math?

I think the max is 70. 10 for one assist, 10 over the truss, 10 for a catch, 30 for the third assist, and then 10 for scoring. Although it'll be uncommon thats what I think a perfect run could get you.

[pntbll1313]

I think the max is 70. 10 for one assist, 10 over the truss, 10 for a catch, 30 for the third assist, and then 10 for scoring. Although it'll be uncommon thats what I think a perfect run could get you.

You don't get 30 more points for the 3rd assist. Just 30 total assist points for 3 assists. That means 60 is the max. 10 truss pass, 10 catch, 10 high goal, 30 assist.

[JohnSchneider]

I think the game sounds interesting. I read the manual, and I have one question. Can a "dead" robot possess a ball?

By definition, yes. Although I'm begging for an amendment to that.

[Phenning470]

This may have already been answered but does anyone know the mass of the ball? preferably in Kg?

also the I.D. and wall thickness of the latex surgical tubing in KOP?

Thanks

[AndrewPospeshil]

One thing that I think a lot of people are confusing is calling the game easy vs basic (or any other related synonyms). Easy implies that the game is not difficult, which is definitely false. It is still a challenge to pick up and launch such a large object with only 20" of space to work with outside the robot, so this year's game is definitely not easy nor should teams take it lightly. However, no FRC game is ever really easy. I don't necessarily think this game is as hard as past years but it is still a challenge and just because it might be a bit easier doesn't mean that it's worse in that sense. Furthermore, this game requires robots to cooperate with their alliance partners. This is the real strategic part of the game, using heavy defense while not neglecting your own ball/team. Assists, passing, all of these elements provide the challenge of the game that is hard to prepare for off-field. I think this game presents a new challenge; instead of figuring out clever ways for the robot to pick up/carry/launch game elements, it requires teams to be smart drivers. They need to be where they're needed when they're needed, and have to work with both their partners.

However, I think most of us can agree that this game is more basic. There's a whopping one field element that can be manipulated by robots and it's recycled from previous years, just smaller. The goals are pretty much the same as last year's. The only mystery is the truss, which nobody seems to know if it's cost effective or not, or if that's even a priority. The hot goal is new I guess, but provides only a five point difference and is pretty negligible if you ask me. Assisting is this year's real focus if you ask me, but let's be honest doesn't make for the most exciting game at a first glance. The balls don't accelerate to super high speeds, or go long distances when passing. Most passes will be rolled or lightly launched and the only thing that changes is what robot is possessing it. Now I understand that many people will argue that this is still exciting to watch, and I agree to an extent. This will be a fun game for FIRSTers (is that a thing?) to watch. People who understand the game, and know how hard it is to build a robot, can relate to all the different game strategies, etc. But to an outsider who hasn't gone through the struggle of actually having to play the game, it's a boring game. The shooting is cool, sure, and I guess the ball moves a lot, but it just pales in comparison to previous years. Ultimate Ascent comes to mind as a year that was thrilling to watch. Of course FIRST can't always make a more and more thrilling game every year, but this game just seems leaps and bounds behind.

Overall I don't think this game is a bad one, it's just more exciting "under the surface" when you get into strategy, defense, etc compared to the admittedly lackluster appeal to casual viewers. Until the game is played we really won't know how much better/worse it is than previous years.

[Darth Drew]

I'm curious, if people wouldn't mind sharing, what type of drive trains are you looking at? I thought a 4 wheel tank drive (with wheels near the corners) would be good, but I've been told that turning with this system can really shake your robot's frame and wouldn't be a good idea, does that make sense?

[Shockwave527]

-It forces you to depend on your alliance more. FIRST's notion of "cooperatition" is a very good thing, but I feel like this may be taking it a step too far. I also feel like it's putting more pressure on rookie teams to build and compete at an unrealistic level.

This game definitely reminds me of the kinds you might play as a kid in order to get everyone included. "You must pass the basketball to every player before you can shoot." I'm sure people have done things like this. While I'm all in favor of being inclusive and I know that's a good thing especially after last year's game was so difficult, it seems that this is, as you say, taking things a bit too far. While this does help the rookie teams to get to do something, the higher teams who have worked hard to become really good are hampered by the fact that they can't handle the whole thing if necessary. I foresee a lot of problems in the first few rounds of regionals if 2 bots are dead in one alliance.

Oh well, it should still be very fun an interesting.

[Team3844]

I have seen several posts about ball weight. I know this matters, but we need to know the pressure inside the bladder so we can collect data on how much the ball will compress. The data in 2014 BALL Inflation and Maintenance Guide is not very exacting.
6. Inflate the BALL so that the zipper appears as in the “Properly Inflated” figure below. The BALL
on the left is under-inflated, while the BALL on the right is over-inflated. When properly inflated,
the zipper will be able to be pulled and closed, not too hard, not too easy.

[DRH2o]

The ROBOT must satisfy the following size constraints:

the total length of the FRAME PERIMETER sides may not exceed 112 in. (see Figure 4-1 for examples),
a ROBOT may not extend more than 20 in. beyond the FRAME PERIMETER (see Figure 4-2 for examples) (see G24), and ...

Does everyone agree that this means 20 in. in multiple directions at the same time?? Looks like that to me. --- sorry if already discussed, searched and no find.

[cmrnpizzo14]

This may have already been answered but does anyone know the mass of the ball? preferably in Kg?

also the I.D. and wall thickness of the latex surgical tubing in KOP?

Thanks

It has already been answered somewhere but teams are getting between 2.5 and 2.75 lbs for an inflated ball. That works out to be roughly 1.1 to 1.2 kg.

I'm not sure what the specs are for the surgical tubing but I'm sure if you look at the KoP checklist and find what the type of surgical tubing it is then you can do some quick research on it.

[ErvinI]

I'm hoping I am terribly wrong, but it looks like this year will be even worse than 2012 when it comes to teams sabotaging alliance members to reduce their rankings. All you need is one team holding onto their ball after autonomous, and the whole alliance is relegated to a maximum of 50 points, even if the other two teams are the best teams in the world. If nothing is gained in auto but driving points, then the maximum becomes 30 points.

Of course, you could force the team to drop the ball, but things will still end up being a bit ugly.

Very un-GP? Yes, but what can you do at this moment without a rule change?

[cbudrecki]

I have seen several posts about ball weight. I know this matters, but we need to know the pressure inside the bladder so we can collect data on how much the ball will compress. The data in 2014 BALL Inflation and Maintenance Guide is not very exacting.
6. Inflate the BALL so that the zipper appears as in the “Properly Inflated” figure below. The BALL
on the left is under-inflated, while the BALL on the right is over-inflated. When properly inflated,
the zipper will be able to be pulled and closed, not too hard, not too easy.

They define it vaguely because there is no definite psi that the balls are inflated to. They are filled by eye/feel of the event crew and field staff. You will experience variances during competition, and should plan for these variances. I would suggest using your own judgement; fill the ball to the point where it's somewhat difficult to close the zipper - this is your high end, then deflate to where it almost seems too loose - this would be your low end. Then expect to see anything in-between at competition.

You want specifics? Too bad. I became an expert trackball inflator at the Championship in 2008, and there is really no science to it. Basically, just going by the zipper.

[Bill_B]

Think it is worth making a speculation topic for? All the teams I have talked to are suspecting similar, that truss is just too beefy to be simply a rope. The video itself even shows people climbing it, along with the fact that the interior struts (the angler things) are separated much more wide then in a normal truss.

The truss is quite likely a COTs of its own in the entertainment industry. I'm not a roadie and I only play one on tournament days. These truss items are used to carry the lighting for a show up near the rafters and lower them to stage level so that things can be adjusted or fixed without extreme alpine skills involved.

Speculation about how sturdy they are for the job they're doing should die out once you realize that anything placed on the field is subject to climbing. I think the GDC and FIRST got a certifiable scare last year due to all that protoplasm crawling all over those skeletal pyramids. A rope? No way GDC wanted to see an FRC version of the Wallendas' act.

[Bill_B]

This game definitely reminds me of the kinds you might play as a kid in order to get everyone included. "You must pass the basketball to every player before you can shoot." I'm sure people have done things like this. While I'm all in favor of being inclusive and I know that's a good thing especially after last year's game was so difficult, it seems that this is, as you say, taking things a bit too far. While this does help the rookie teams to get to do something, the higher teams who have worked hard to become really good are hampered by the fact that they can't handle the whole thing if necessary. I foresee a lot of problems in the first few rounds of regionals if 2 bots are dead in one alliance.

Oh well, it should still be very fun an interesting.
The "higher" teams as you say may be too accustomed to handling the whole game. Fortunately, the highest teams already know that handling the "whole game" means being ready to descend into their alliance partners' pits and fix things so those guys can participate in the game too. I will be really surprised if there are fewer than five teams in each of our regional events that patrol the pits is search of teams to help play this game better. I hate the term coopertition, but great teams this year (and previously) will practice it fervently and the tournaments cannot help but be better for it.

[Laaba 80]

This game definitely reminds me of the kinds you might play as a kid in order to get everyone included. "You must pass the basketball to every player before you can shoot." I'm sure people have done things like this.

Although it is bonus points instead of a hard requirement, I really like this comparison.

I'll admit that I really did not like the game when I first saw the animation; after reading the manual and letting it sink in a bit I think this will prove to have phenomenal game play, and quite possibly the best I've ever seen.

[Racer26]

I'm hoping I am terribly wrong, but it looks like this year will be even worse than 2012 when it comes to teams sabotaging alliance members to reduce their rankings. All you need is one team holding onto their ball after autonomous, and the whole alliance is relegated to a maximum of 50 points, even if the other two teams are the best teams in the world. If nothing is gained in auto but driving points, then the maximum becomes 30 points.

Of course, you could force the team to drop the ball, but things will still end up being a bit ugly.

Very un-GP? Yes, but what can you do at this moment without a rule change?

Oh man... I hadn't even considered this possibility.

I would agree that intentionally throwing matches is so far down the un-GP road that nobody should be considering it.

This game seems particularly vulnerable to a rogue alliance member trying to sabotage an elite's standing by throwing the match, though. Most games, if the elite team member is good enough, it doesn't much matter what any of the other 5 robots on the field do. This game, if a rogue alliance partner just bogarts the ball and refuses to score it, the elite team is left high and dry with no way to score points on their own.

[themccannman]

Oh man... I hadn't even considered this possibility.

I would agree that intentionally throwing matches is so far down the un-GP road that nobody should be considering it.

And yet it still happens. Despite it being poor sportsmanship some people decide it's worth the strategic advantage. I agree it shouldn't happen, but it does, and it will this season too.

[Dragonking]

After a couple days I realized that this game most closely resembles volleyball. You aren't required to pass to your teammates but you gain an advantage when you do. A maximum of 3 players can gain possession- the last player is the one scoring. The truss is similar to the net in volleyball.

[Wildcats1378]

After a couple days I realized that this game most closely resembles volleyball. You aren't required to pass to your teammates but you gain an advantage when you do. A maximum of 3 players can gain possession- the last player is the one scoring. The truss is similar to the net in volleyball.

Yeah! That's why I think a net is a better option than a huge truss. It'd make the game a little more cohesive to watch and understand if there was a net. I guess you don't want robots getting tangled in it or ripping it though, so that makes sense.

[taschneide]

I'm hoping I am terribly wrong, but it looks like this year will be even worse than 2012 when it comes to teams sabotaging alliance members to reduce their rankings. All you need is one team holding onto their ball after autonomous, and the whole alliance is relegated to a maximum of 50 points, even if the other two teams are the best teams in the world. If nothing is gained in auto but driving points, then the maximum becomes 30 points.

Of course, you could force the team to drop the ball, but things will still end up being a bit ugly.

Very un-GP? Yes, but what can you do at this moment without a rule change?

Well, the Game Manual update on Jan. 7th cleared up... absolutely nothing.

http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/Updates/0



We've received questions about how a MATCH will proceed if a BALL gets stuck on or in a ROBOT or on the TRUSS. We are in the process of refining the process and are incorporating feedback from Chief volunteers to identify the cleanest solution.

[ErvinI]

Well, the Game Manual update on Jan. 7th cleared up... absolutely nothing.

http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/Updates/0

Seems to have been rectified (depending on who has to signal): http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=124428

[YonkeDonk3277]

I have a question regarding rule " 4.1.3 R3 Letter B) a robot may not extend more than 20in. beyond the FRAME PERIMETER( Fig. 4-2) " with this description and the diagram shown it appears that you can have multiple apendages extending from your bot in different directions, each extending 20in.. Is this a correct intrepretation?::rtm::

[markmcgary]

I have a question regarding rule " 4.1.3 R3 Letter B) a robot may not extend more than 20in. beyond the FRAME PERIMETER( Fig. 4-2) " with this description and the diagram shown it appears that you can have multiple apendages extending from your bot in different directions, each extending 20in.. Is this a correct intrepretation?::rtm::

Yes. See Q1 (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/1/can-you-have-more-than-one-appendage-of-20-inches-each) and Q11 (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/11/how-many-directions-can-you-extend-20-in-horizontally-at-one-time).

[YonkeDonk3277]

Yes. See Q1 (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/1/can-you-have-more-than-one-appendage-of-20-inches-each) and Q11 (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/11/how-many-directions-can-you-extend-20-in-horizontally-at-one-time).

Thanks, That clears up my questions!