Aerial Assist Discussion Thread

[Hallry]

So, whatcha think?!?

[cgmv123]

No end game. Interesting.

[Bryce Paputa]

What's the manual password?

[Steven Donow]

So far, I give it a 6/10. It'll probably drop when I read the manual, then rise when I actually see the game

What's the manual password?

3Zones2Goals1Alliance!

[Coin3]

I love this game to the end of the Earth!

Teamwork FTW! :D

[WeJohnFriedIt]

I like it.

[Siri]

Password: 3Zones2Goals1Alliance!

[Dustin Shadbolt]

Interesting that there is no end game. Seems like a quick straight forward sport game.

[WeJohnFriedIt]

Yeah I was also surprised that there's no cooperative task to finish with. Go figure.

[sanddrag]

Where do we get more of the game balls?

[Christian751]

I don't really know what to think... Right now I'm not really liking this game, but that's my opinion, I feel its like a 5/10 right now... Interesting idea, just seems kinda bland. Once again, just my opinion.

[MagiChau]

Its interesting how cumulative assist points are the 2nd sort (after qualification score) making it really critical for seeding high. Section 5.3.4 has the sorting information.

[MysterE]

Ok - since the stream completely sucked for UStream, does anyone know when the YouTube videos will be up?

[MetalJacket]

Looks pretty awesome. I was hoping for max capacity but large game objects are cool too :).

[shades23]

Wait so what is the max amount of points you can score in a single run?

[cgmv123]

Wait so what is the max amount of points you can score in a single run?

3 assists in the high goal is 40 points.

[indubitably]

Ok - since the stream completely sucked for UStream, does anyone know when the YouTube videos will be up?

The game video is already uploaded:
http://youtu.be/oxp4dkMQ1Vo

The others should soon follow, but I think those will be on FIRST's page.

[PVCpirate]

Wait so what is the max amount of points you can score in a single run?

Haven't loaded the manual yet, but it sounds like 30 for 3 assists, 10 for throwing the ball over the truss, and 10 for a 10 pt goal for a total of 50. I think.

EDIT: there's also a 10 point bonus for catching the ball from over the truss, for 60 possible points per cycle.

[WeJohnFriedIt]

Wait so what is the max amount of points you can score in a single run?
40 for a triple-assisted high goal + 10 for passing over truss + 10 for a partner catching it after the truss throw makes 60 max points, right?

[maxwellt]

Wait so what is the max amount of points you can score in a single run?

I think 40 because if you get 3 assist it is 30points and then 10 for the high goal

[Steven Donow]

Yessssss you can plug in whatever laptop you want into the driver station(ie. outlet wise)

[lakstick]

I would think the maximum is 60. 30 for the 3 assist, 10 for going over the truss, 10 more for a catch, and then 10 for scoring the goal. Am I wrong on this math?

[jwallace15]

Shortened Autonomous... Lengthened match... No end game... Interesting...

[yash101]

what is the password for the documents? I want to open those too.

[Mike Marandola]

Most likely Andy Mark like most years.

[maxwellt]

does anyone know if they are creating a Simulation Game this year the past 2 years they have worked with Diamond Bullet Studios to create the Simulation

[shades23]

But then cant you get 10 for the hot goal 5 for passing it over

[cgmv123]

Once a ball is on the field, you don't get another one until the the ball on the field is scored.

[Refresh]

Wow, 5 points for just driving forward in autonomous. nice!

[shades23]

I would think the maximum is 60. 30 for the 3 assist, 10 for going over the truss, 10 more for a catch, and then 10 for scoring the goal. Am I wrong on this math?

But what about scoring in the hot goal

[Refresh]

But what about scoring in the hot goal

Hot Goal is only in autonomous.

[Steven Donow]

But what about scoring in the hot goal

HOT goal is only for autonomous

[shades23]

So how long do you guys thinknit will take for a 3 assist run

[Sean Raia]

So how long do you guys thinknit will take for a 3 assist run

Week 1.

A toss and catch will be very rare but I suspect it will be pulled off.

This game is going to be a lot of fun to watch.

[Crubotics]

So what did the hint have to do with the game?

[Refresh]

So what did the hint have to do with the game?

The name and the art of the assist

[Steven Donow]

Four team alliances at Championships. Choose any 3 of the 4 teams to be in your LINEUP for each match

[shades23]

Hot Goal is only in autonomous.

Okay thanks

[maxwellt]

So what did the hint have to do with the game?

Assists

[Justin Shelley]

Pretty simple game. I love it!!! Catching seems extremely hard though, but if it can be done it will be amazing to watch!!

[thursam]

Week 1.

A toss and catch will be very rare but I suspect it will be pulled off.

This game is going to be a lot of fun to watch.

A toss/catch will be uncommon, but bkt incredibly rare. Hitting the chain box on top of the pyramid was difficult last year, but there were a lot more successes than originally predicted.

I think it would be harder to make a goal in the uppee goal posts on the alliance walls.

[Refresh]

Did many teams try to catch the trackballs from overdrive? granted those balls were a lot bigger but I feel like that's the easiest comparison to this game.

[mollyjane14]

So, whatcha think?!?

The assist situation is interesting... I'm wondering if a pass still counts as an assist if it were bounced or rolled? Didn't see anything in the manual about that :confused:

[PVCpirate]

The assist situation is interesting... I'm wondering if a pass still counts as an assist if it were bounced or rolled? Didn't see anything in the manual about that :confused:

Since the assists are based on posession, It sounds like you can pass it however you want.

[Brian C]

Did many teams try to catch the trackballs from overdrive? granted those balls were a lot bigger but I feel like that's the easiest comparison to this game.

Some teams did.....but not on purpose ;)

[Joshua25801]

So, whatcha think?!?

Do you know the weight of the game ball this year?

[Steven Donow]

The assist situation is interesting... I'm wondering if a pass still counts as an assist if it were bounced or rolled? Didn't see anything in the manual about that :confused:

Assists are defined as possessing the ball, and possession is defined as, per G12:

An ALLIANCE may not POSSESS their opponent’s BALLS. The following criteria define POSSESSION :
A) “carrying” (moving while supporting BALLS in or on the ROBOT),
B) “herding” (repeated pushing or bumping),
C) “launching” (impelling BALLS to a desired location or direction), and
D) “trapping” (overt isolation or holding one or more BALLS against a FIELD element or ROBOT in an attempt to shield them).

[kk_4849]

What is the weight of the game ball? I can't find it in the manual.

[The Trooper]

About 4 of us have asked now, for those of you quoting the rule book, could you please help us out with a password? :)

[Joshua25801]

About 4 of us have asked now, for those of you quoting the rule book, could you please help us out with a password? :)

3Zone2Goals1Alliance!

[The Trooper]

3Zone2Goals1Alliance!
Much appreciated Joshua! Thank you!

[Joshua25801]

Much appreciated Joshua! Thank you!

no problem

[rkoripalli]

If an alliance were to have 3 assists and then a robot from the opposing alliance were to block the shot, and then the offensive robot picked up the ball and made it does the offensive alliance still get the assist points?

[StatusAnalysis]

So basically Overdrive+Breakaway+Ultimate Ascent= Aerial Assist?::rtm::

[ElfMaster]

So... can you get the points for the truss + catch without getting it into the goal?

[maths222]

AndyMark is selling the balls: red (http://www.andymark.com/FRC-2014-p/am-2720.htm) and blue (http://www.andymark.com/FRC-2014-p/am-2721.htm)

[Bryan Herbst]

So... can you get the points for the truss + catch without getting it into the goal?

Yes. The scoring table on page 1 shows catch and truss points as being distinct from the goal points, whereas assists are dependent on getting the ball into the goal.

EDIT: Perhaps not. Depends on your interpretation of 3.1.4:

Points are awarded once per CYCLE for BALLS SCORED by ROBOTS in the GOALS, BALLS SCORED by ROBOTS over the TRUSS, and for each ROBOT CATCH. Additional points are credited to an ALLIANCE upon each GOAL based on the number of ASSISTS earned by the ALLIANCE for that CYCLE.

Good QA question.

[cgmv123]

AndyMark is selling the balls: http://www.andymark.com/FRC-2014-p/am-2720.htm

They do not appear to be available in FIRST Choice at this time.

[jp1247]

Neat game, interesting there's no endgame...

Though, it may just be me, it seems that there is no point to the lower goals. Every team (assumption, though a fairly good one I'd say) is going to at least AIM for getting the high goals. Since there can only be one ball in play (correct me) the alliance wants full assist points, and the top points. I feel like this puts pressure onto teams to build something capable of getting the top goal. I could be missing some element here, but I think this takes away the specialized robot. Every robot has to be able to do everything because who knows what teams are on your alliance.

My $.02. I really hope someone can prove me wrong here. (In a professional manner of course :D )

[thegem811]

If a ball is thrown out of play after collecting assists, when the ball is brought back into play, are the assists reset, or do you just have to score the ball?

[mdiradoorian]

I might have missed it but, can you push the goalie around as a counter defense?

[npalm2849]

What happens if a ball is stuck inside a robot during autonomous. Then you cannot score until you get that stuck ball out it seems. Hope FIRST fixes this issue.

[Eagleeyedan]

So basically Overdrive+Breakaway+Ultimate Ascent= Aerial Assist?::rtm::

Those minus safe zones and endgames.

[mdiradoorian]

What happens if a ball is stuck inside a robot during autonomous. Then you cannot score until you get that stuck ball out it seems. Hope FIRST fixes this issue.

They probably will not fix that because it not an issue. It is your fault if it gets stuck, so design accordingly.

[TheCrayButton]

Here is an "Assist Rule" diagram that might help some people out.

[Dad1279]

Pretty simple game. I love it!!! Catching seems extremely hard though, but if it can be done it will be amazing to watch!!

A toss/catch will be uncommon, but bkt incredibly rare. Hitting the chain box on top of the pyramid was difficult last year, but there were a lot more successes than originally predicted.

I think it would be harder to make a goal in the uppee goal posts on the alliance walls.

Did many teams try to catch the trackballs from overdrive? granted those balls were a lot bigger but I feel like that's the easiest comparison to this game.

Perhaps catches will be more common than you think?.... ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JElxKBOT958

[AmoryG]

Maybe I'm underestimating how difficult auton will be, but I feel in elimination rounds and at more competitive competitions the max amount of points will be achieved most rounds on both alliances making it a complete wash and losing most of its excitement.

Also, besides the toss and catch over the bar it seems like defending will be extremely difficult. If a robot can shoot into the upper goals they are too wide for any robot to defend. I can see this game turning into which alliance can hand the ball off the fastest with almost no interaction between alliances. Maybe they should call this game Assembly Line because that's what I'm afraid it will look like to a lot of people watching the game.

[prachinawathe15]

What would happen if an alliance completed a number of assists but missed their shot into the upper goal? If the robot were to pick up the dropped ball and shoot it into the upper goal, would they still get the assist points?

[Kabir Manghnani]

Can you buy just the bladder for the game piece? I know that game pieces are normally expensive but $52 seems a bit ridiculous...

[CliffordStChuck]

Here is an "Assist Rule" diagram that might help some people out.
So to be clear, an assist is only counted if the robots are in different zones?

[Kabir Manghnani]

What would happen if an alliance completed a number of assists but missed their shot into the upper goal? If the robot were to pick up the dropped ball and shoot it into the upper goal, would they still get the assist points?

Assists only get reset at the end of a cycle (when a ball is scored) so you would still get the assist points.

[Kabir Manghnani]

So to be clear, an assist is only counted if the robots are in different zones?

yes

[rhinobot]

Does anybody know the ball weight?

[Kabir Manghnani]

Does anybody know the ball weight?

Exactly 5lbs without air (air wont add much weight though).

[sastoller]

Does anybody know the ball weight?
2.5 pounds.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1320236#post1320236

[Kabir Manghnani]

Wait so what is the max amount of points you can score in a single run?

60pts
Max cycle: 3 assist, truss-catch, high goal (60 points).
Different strategies: 2 assist, truss-catch, low (51 points);
2 assist, high (40 points);
2 assist, low (31 points)

[andrewia]

It seems to me that "assisting" is the act of another robot possessing the ball in another zone; assistance is not defined by passing. That would mean one alliance robot could get the ball from outside (+10 pts.), pass it to a human player, and then the human passes the ball to another robot in another zone (+10 pts.). This means that robots with poor passing ability can use the human players. Human players can pass much quicker than robots (unless you have really good drivers and programs) so this might be a more efficient method of passing.

[bs7280]

I have a question about getting 30 assist points AND the over the truss + catching bonus:

After watching some of the field tour videos about assists, I learned that, in order to get all the assist points, you have to pass between color zones, and to the opposite sides of those color zones (different row and column if you will). And for the Over the truss + catch maneuver my first thought was to have a robot with an arm/elevator that lifts the ball over, and only a few feet away is a catching robot with a large bucket.

So, in order to get 30 assist points AND the over the truss with a catch, do you have to make some huge 20 foot pass across the field from one zone to the next in order to get all the points? or can you do a short pass like I said, then have the other robot drive into the different zone to get the same number of points?

[mechanical_robot]

What happens if a ball is stuck inside a robot during autonomous. Then you cannot score until you get that stuck ball out it seems. Hope FIRST fixes this issue.

That's a you & your team's problem not a FIRST problem. Find a way to combat this. Be innovative.

[bs7280]

Do the supershifter gearboxes work with the new 2014 frame?

[Coin3]

So, in order to get 30 assist points AND the over the truss with a catch, do you have to make some huge 20 foot pass across the field from one zone to the next in order to get all the points? or can you do a short pass like I said, then have the other robot drive into the different zone to get the same number of points?

I believe doing so would only net you 2 assists. Assists are defined as "when a unique ALLIANCE ROBOT POSSESSES the ALLIANCE’S BALL in a unique ZONE (i.e. red, white, or blue ZONE) during a CYCLE." So passing the ball across the field from one robot to the other and then scoring would only count as 2 unique alliance robots possessing the ball in 2 unique zones, and therefore 2 assists. The "correct" way to get 3 assists with an over the truss catch would be for the furthest back robot (opposite alliance zone) to launch the ball over the truss, the second robot (white zone) catches it and passes it over to the third robot (alliance zone) who then scores it.

[4AngryNutjobs]

By removing the end game they've reduced the number of different things a robot can do and given us more opportunity to increase the complexity of a single mechanism.

[Jibri Wright]

Anybody know how much the balls weigh?

[MOOcow]

Anybody know how much the balls weigh?

Someone mentioned earlier that the balls were 5 lbs exactly without air.

[prachinawathe15]

I can't seem to find where to buy just the bladder, but that may not be the best idea because rubber and cloth will act differently when you try to pick them up. For example, a suction method may work for just the inflated rubber bladder, but it will not work if the cloth cover is on.

[Jibri Wright]

Someone mentioned earlier that the balls were 5 lbs exactly without air.

ok thanks. Any guess as to how much with air?

[Ankit S.]

Exactly 5lbs without air (air wont add much weight though).

AndyMark says 2.75 pounds.

http://www.andymark.com/FRC-2014-p/am-2720.htm

[MOOcow]

AndyMark says 2.75 pounds.

http://www.andymark.com/FRC-2014-p/am-2720.htm

Ah. I just saw someone said 5 lbs earlier, I should have done some research.

ok thanks. Any guess as to how much with air?

Air shouldn't add much.

The volume of the ball is about 4.19 ft^3
According to Wolfram Alpha, 4.19 ft^3 of air weighs .334 lbs.
2.75+.334 = 3.084

The ball with air will weigh approximately 3.084 lbs

[Jibri Wright]

AndyMark says 2.75 pounds.

http://www.andymark.com/FRC-2014-p/am-2720.htm

Oh wow! Any verification on this?

[4AngryNutjobs]

Couple questions. Do assists other than the truss pass/catch count if the goal is not scored? Also if you missed and made a couple more assists and managed to score this time, could you get over 3 assists for a cycle?

[4AngryNutjobs]

oh and what are the thoughts on the definition of losing possession and what you have to do after losing possession?

[bhrobot]

I have a question, if you were in the opposing zone and throw a ball over the truss and made it in your goal, would you also get the truss points?

[Coin3]

Couple questions. Do assists other than the truss pass/catch count if the goal is not scored? Also if you missed and made a couple more assists and managed to score this time, could you get over 3 assists for a cycle?

1. Assists only count as a bonus to the base point value for scoring a ball. The scoring chart Table 3-2 shows this.

2. In Section 3.1.4 it says "the maximum number of ASSISTS in a single CYCLE is three (3)." So no, since that your alliance is still in the same cycle and still has the assists from earlier in the cycle.

[GaryVoshol]

I have a question, if you were in the opposing zone and throw a ball over the truss and made it in your goal, would you also get the truss points?

Truss points, but check the rules on scoring goals - you're limited where you can shoot from.

[GaryVoshol]

oh and what are the thoughts on the definition of losing possession and what you have to do after losing possession?

The words "lose" and "losing" are in the manual one time each, and have nothing to do with POSSESSION.

That said, if you do lose possession of the ball, you'd better try hard to regain it because you're not going to score any points without it.

[marcusb258]

Our team heard that at 4pm we would be able to order the balls from FIRST Choice but when we go on their website, the balls arent there. Anyone have an answer or the same problem?

Thanks and good luck teams!!! :] :]

[Jhultink]

So, let's say all 6 robots miss their auto points and the balls all stay on the field. How will the refs keep track of all the balls and assists?

Or will assists not count until all the auto balls have been scored? If this is the case, wouldn't it be better to have some of your alliance partners not even do auto so that you can get assist point in Tele-op quicker?

[GaryVoshol]

So, let's say all 6 robots miss their auto points and the balls all stay on the field. How will the refs keep track of all the balls and assists?

Or will assists not count until all the auto balls have been scored? If this is the case, wouldn't it be better to have some of your alliance partners not even do auto so that you can get assist point in Tele-op quicker?

ASSISTS count as part of a CYCLE. A CYCLE begins when the the PEDESTAL lights up.

3.1.2
Although an ALLIANCE may start a MATCH with up to three (3) BALLS, the PEDESTAL will only be illuminated when the last BALL that started the MATCH is SCORED, effectively reducing the number of BALLS in play per ALLIANCE to one (1).

[Snapshot]

Has anyone been able to identify anything that causes the number of assists to reset other than scoring a goal? It seems like you can just pass back and forth and never have it reset until you score.

[Chi Meson]

Follow up to that,
Can the balls that begin in auto be used to score truss points before they score a goal?

[Snapshot]

Follow up to that,
Can the balls that begin in auto be used to score truss points before they score a goal?

Based off the scoring diagram on page 18, it seems like it might.

[Jhultink]

ASSISTS count as part of a CYCLE. A CYCLE begins when the the PEDESTAL lights up.

3.1.2

And the pedestal doesn't light up until all 3 balls are off the field right? So if you can's score autonomous you get to become a goalie...

[magnets]

So, what happens if a robot doesn't work, and it's got a ball in it (from beginning of auto let's say), no points for the alliance?

[Chi Meson]

And the pedestal doesn't light up until all 3 balls are off the field right? So if you can's score autonomous you get to become a goalie...
All 3 or however many an alliance chooses to start with, including, zero.

[Snapshot]

What if a team cannot loose possession of a ball though? Does that mean the alliance can never start a cycle?

EDIT: Nevermind, someone just beat me to asking this.

[cbudrecki]

Neat game, interesting there's no endgame...

Though, it may just be me, it seems that there is no point to the lower goals. Every team (assumption, though a fairly good one I'd say) is going to at least AIM for getting the high goals.

With assists, the low goals can still be valuable. The 10 & 30 point bonuses also apply to the low goals.

[taschneide]

If you get a ball from your team stuck inside your robot, then tough luck, I guess. You can't use the ball, and you can't get another ball into play until your ball has been scored, which isn't going to happen, 'cause you can't use the ball.

If you get your opponents' ball stuck inside your robot, though... that's a technical foul, right? But is it just one technical foul, or do they add more on over time? The rules say "technical foul per instance"... I assume this is one thing they're going to change over the coming weeks, otherwise it might be worth it to steal your opponents' ball and sit on it for the whole match.

[Snapshot]

Has anyone seen anything that says it's okay to block passes by intentionally driving between two opponent robots or even pushing a ball out from in front of a robot that's pushing the ball along the field?

[Steve Horn]

So if you can's score autonomous you get to become a goalie...

If you can't score in one of the goals in autonomous mode, you can also drive into your zone and get five points. If you can cross into your zone and score in the "hot" goal, you can get 25 points in autonomous mode.

[GaryVoshol]

Follow up to that,
Can the balls that begin in auto be used to score truss points before they score a goal?

I'm guessing not, based on 3.1.4:
Points are awarded once per CYCLE for BALLS SCORED by ROBOTS in the GOALS, BALLS SCORED by ROBOTS over the TRUSS, and for each ROBOT CATCH. Additional points are credited to an ALLIANCE upon each GOAL based on the number of ASSISTS earned by the ALLIANCE for that CYCLE.

The CYCLE doesn't start until after all the BALLS from AUTO have been SCORED. (3.1.2)

[Chi Meson]

I'm guessing not, based on 3.1.4:


The CYCLE doesn't start until after all the BALLS from AUTO have been SCORED. (3.1.2)

But that logic would make the autonomous goals not count as well. I read that rule to limit the number of truss/catch points per cycle.

In 3.1.4 it says specifically for assist points:
"ASSISTS are earned when a unique ALLIANCE ROBOT POSSESSES the ALLIANCE’S BALL in a unique ZONE (i.e. red, white, or blue ZONE) during a CYCLE."

It does not say specifically that truss points "only count within a cycle."

[Yalib]

What do you guys say about G4, G5?

Auto setup - does setting up a robot in "thier goalie zone" mean he is placed on the opposite alliance's side and can block in auto? or does it mean he starts in the goalie zone of his color?

[GaryVoshol]

But that logic would make the autonomous goals not count as well. I read that rule to limit the number of truss/catch points per cycle.

It does create a Catch-22 situation if BALLS are SCORED only during AUTO or in a CYCLE. A CYCLE doesn't start until all the BALLS from AUTO have been SCORED. But they can't actually SCORE after AUTO ends.

And the following text in 3.1.4 that tells when BALLS are SCORED says nothing about being inside a CYCLE.

Something for the GDC to clarify.

[The_ShamWOW88]

Question regarding auto if anybody has any ideas. The robot is allowed to drive up to the 10pt goal and shoot/roll/layup the ball or does it have to be done from the white zone before the robot enters the red/blue zone?

[heisenburger]

I'm new to first and by looking quickly through the manual i didn't find any programming rules. so are there any programing rules?

[Chi Meson]

It does create a Catch-22 situation if BALLS are SCORED only during AUTO or in a CYCLE. A CYCLE doesn't start until all the BALLS from AUTO have been SCORED. But they can't actually SCORE after AUTO ends.

And the following text in 3.1.4 that tells when BALLS are SCORED says nothing about being inside a CYCLE.

Something for the GDC to clarify.
That line you quote where the cycle doesn't begin until all auto balls are "scored"...
They obviously do not mean "truss" scored, but "goal" scored. A clarification is needed, although I do take it to mean that all balls must be scored in goals before a cycle begins. I still see it so far that truss/catch scores are valid using balls that begin in autonomous.

I would very much like to get that clarified.

[DaveFrederick]

What is the password for the encrypted data?

[Snapshot]

I'm new to first and by looking quickly through the manual i didn't find any programming rules. so are there any programing rules?

FIRST is pretty lenient with the programming rules. You can choose between Labview, C++ (Winriver), or Java (Netbeans). When programming, you must make sure to implement watchdog, which is a function that automatically shuts down the robot to prevent safety hazards if it isn't "fed" within a certain amount of time. Of course, you also must be sure your code doesn't allow control while disabled or autonomous, of course.

I'm sure there's other rules, but those are the big ones.

[Snapshot]

What is the password for the encrypted data?

3Zones2Goals1Alliance!

[ohrly?]

I'm really confused about the role of the human players, specifically these ones: http://min.us/i/bpK5KsFVN1YvK

G38 prevents player C from passing the ball to player A, and G39 prevents player A from getting the ball himself. Furthermore, player A is forbidden from inbounding a ball by G36. So what exactly do player A and B do?

[Timeroot]

I believe the field staff members have the duty to bring balls to "the nearest team member"?

Edit: It says A CYCLE is the series of events that recur regularly, and each CYCLE begins with an ALLIANCE member retrieving their BALL from their lit PEDESTAL and ends when the BALL is SCORED in a GOAL.

[ohrly?]

I believe the field staff members have the duty to bring balls to "the nearest team member"?

Oops, yeah. But if the ball is scored, don't the staff members put the ball on the pedestal all the way on the other end of the field?

[Timeroot]

Players A and B serve two rules -- a robot can pass a ball to one of those two players, and then the human can pass it back in [given certain slight restrictions, e.g. the human barrier, no interfering with the other team]; AND if a ball goes out of bounds, then players A and B might very well be given the ball and then they have the opportunity to pass it back in. They cannot leave the area for the whole of the game period.


Player C can move about freely within that U-shaped region, and can retrieve the ball from the pedestal and pass it into play.

[ohrly?]

Ok, that makes sense now. And there's no rule against having all three players behind the alliance wall?

[Timeroot]

Our team has been looking. We can't find any.

[cbudrecki]

What do you guys say about G4, G5?

Auto setup - does setting up a robot in "thier goalie zone" mean he is placed on the opposite alliance's side and can block in auto? or does it mean he starts in the goalie zone of his color?

I was wondering the same thing... Definitely need clarification on this rule.

[Robbin847]

So what if my ball gets stuck on top of the truss? How would I continue my cycle and move on to the next. And is the number of cycles you have only limited by how quickly you can score your ball. And how many balls is there after autonomous. You start off with 3 but after that is the next cycle just 1 ball.

[cgmv123]

i really agree, i don't like the fact that they almost completely eliminated defense, like when you pin someone you have to be 6 feet away from them in 5 seconds, that's ridiculous.

The pinning rule has been like that for at least 3 years.

[blitzenkid]

Now that I'm reading the manual (skimmed earlier) and I've spent the past four hours in a conference room with my team discussing this beautiful monster of a game, I think my initial impression stands: "So this is what Lunacy felt like. Great."

I think it'll be way more fun when we actually get to playing it, but right now, I'd say 5 or 6 out of 10.

I'd be interested to know why they decided to eliminate the end game, other than flabbergasting everybody in some way. That, and cutting autonomous so short.

[Grim Tuesday]

So what if my ball gets stuck on top of the truss? How would I continue my cycle and move on to the next. And is the number of cycles you have only limited by how quickly you can score your ball. And how many balls is there after autonomous. You start off with 3 but after that is the next cycle just 1 ball.

You are stuck, sorry. Currently there are no rules for getting a new ball for a CYCLE if the ball is inaccessible (on top of the truss or in a robot).


Also, the balls not SCORED in AUTO must all be SCORED before the first CYCLE can begin.

[bduddy]

i really agree, i don't like the fact that they almost completely eliminated defense, like when you pin someone you have to be 6 feet away from them in 5 seconds, that's ridiculous.This rule has been exactly the same for many years. This game has more possibilities for defense than many before it... I'm guessing you weren't around for Logomotion?

[mandrews281]

i really agree, i don't like the fact that they almost completely eliminated defense, like when you pin someone you have to be 6 feet away from them in 5 seconds, that's ridiculous.

I'm not so sure. With no "safe zone" for shooting this year, there might be more defense than you think.

Also, what was the deal in the kickoff about "things changing during the season"? You don't suppose the end game will be announched with Team Update #2 or something like that do you?

[Rypsnort]

Yeah I was also surprised that there's no cooperative task to finish with. Go figure.

The cooperation is withing your own team and throughout the game this year.

[UnTrustedTruss]

I have only read seven pages of this, is someone already pointed this out, forgive me. Until then get out your tinfoil hats.

I really think we are all missing out on a major clue, a clue that is going to be vital to the game. Watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWb248RSafo#t=112) video from about two minutes in and on. You may have missed this line but it is so important.

"We are doing this a bit differently this year, making changes from kickoff to championships this year"

What changes have been made this year thus far? This game is exactly the same as every other year, with no organizational differences championship wise. We also don't have an endgame this year, and for such an easy challenge, this seems odd.

Think about it, the only challenge is team coordination, everything else is just pure driver twitch skills. Now go back your pictures of the truss from kickoff, I know you took them, that thing is hefty. We had two or three people hanging from it at the Upper Darby Kickoff, no sag.

Why would they bother to build such a hefty truss that could be replaced with a taught rope? We believe the reason is because there is an endgame we don't know about yet. Now, look at the extremely detailed rules about height requirements for the goalie, these are super detailed, yet so horrible.

No one is going to be able to play affective defense with 6 inch diameter pole that cannot be articulated. Having a dedicated goalie will be a drag on the rest of the team (missing out on tri-assists). I believe, personally, the lack of a height limit will be extended to the incoming endgame in which you must attempt a hang.

A hang? We had a hang last year? We did, but it sucked, those pyramids were $@#$ near impossible to climb to the top, everyone just did level one holds. They were a major disappointment. Why not give us a chance to retry it.

A Mid-season added endgame challenge seems so plausible right now.

sets aside tinfoil hat

[Stark4Prez23]

I have a question regarding human players. If they can pass the ball back into the game, they can only pass it to their designated color zone, right? So that eliminates passing from a robot to a human player? (Effectively) Is the human player's job only to introduce balls into the field? Oh wait,that's more than one question. Oh well :rolleyes:

[cjl2625]

Watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWb248RSafo#t=112) video from about two minutes in and on. You may have missed this line but it is so important.

"We are doing this a bit differently this year, making changes from kickoff to championships this year"


That's pretty interesting... Woody says they're making changes throughout the season to "keep things fresh"

I think you might actually be on to something...

[Jack_O]

Sorry if this has already been asked. Do assists have to go in sequential order? For example: Normally the passing would be done blue zone to white zone to red zone. Can this be bypassed by doing a long shot from the blue zone to the red zone?

[MetalJacket]

Sorry if this has already been asked. Do assists have to go in sequential order? For example: Normally the passing would be done blue zone to white zone to red zone. Can this be bypassed by doing a long shot from the blue zone to the red zone?
From the Manual ...

ASSIST: an event worth bonus points that occurs when a unique ALLIANCE ROBOT POSSESSES the ALLIANCE’S BALL in a unique ZONE (i.e. red, white, or blue ZONE) during a CYCLE.

So theoretically yes, shooting from blue to red would be an assist as the ball is in a unique zone provided the robot that picks it up is not the same one that shot it (it too must be unique). That would only be your second assist however (with the first being the introduction of the ball by the human player) so you would need to pass to a different player in white to get the third assist. At least that is my interpretation of the rule's wording

[WakingTheFallen]

...Might it be legal to shoot the ball over the truss and catch it YOURSELF for the 20 points?

[MetalJacket]

...Might it be legal to shoot the ball over the truss and catch it YOURSELF for the 20 points?

This was discussed a little earlier - the ball must have been thrown over the truss by an alliance partner to get the catch bonus

[Jack_O]

The manual states that you have to pass to a partner. I only asked my question for cases where the third robot is disabled. Thanks for confirming my suspicions,

[WakingTheFallen]

Thanks for the clarification.

[UnTrustedTruss]

That's pretty interesting... Woody says they're making changes throughout the season to "keep things fresh"

I think you might actually be on to something...

Think it is worth making a speculation topic for? All the teams I have talked to are suspecting similar, that truss is just too beefy to be simply a rope. The video itself even shows people climbing it, along with the fact that the interior struts (the angler things) are separated much more wide then in a normal truss.

[cjl2625]

Yeah, make a topic. This actually seems pretty plausible

[mcchev]

Wait so what is the max amount of points you can score in a single run?

You can get 3 robots with possession, throw it over the middle bar, have a robot catch it, and score for 60 points.

[chrisfl]

Yeah I was also surprised that there's no cooperative task to finish with. Go figure.

The whole game is a cooperative task

[Bryce Paputa]

A Mid-season added endgame challenge seems so plausible right now.


This. We're saving 20 pounds in our design for it.

[Coin3]

The whole game is a cooperative task

He may have meant a coopertitive (coopertition-based) task.

[AWB]

What if i'm in the red zone and shoot the ball over the truss to a robot in the white zone? 30 points or foul?

[petrokid96]

We had a hang last year? We did, but it sucked, those pyramids were $@#$ near impossible to climb to the top, everyone just did level one holds. They were a major disappointment.

[SIZE="1"]sets aside tinfoil hat

This I find as Extremely false because my team, Greater Rochester Robotics (G.R.R.) 340, on practice day at Finger Lakes Regional we showed a full 30 point climb and we preformed that almost every match after that including at the Buckeye Regional ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyq0w7H76IU ). We also saw at least 2 other teams do a 30 point climb at Buckeye.

[MetalJacket]

What if i'm in the red zone and shoot the ball over the truss to a robot in the white zone? 30 points or foul?

Blue Robot in Red Zone (loading area) shoots over the Truss to a Robot in the White Zone = assist #2 = +10pts if scored

[Chris_Ely]

I have only read seven pages of this, is someone already pointed this out, forgive me. Until then get out your tinfoil hats.

I really think we are all missing out on a major clue, a clue that is going to be vital to the game. Watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWb248RSafo#t=112) video from about two minutes in and on. You may have missed this line but it is so important.

"We are doing this a bit differently this year, making changes from kickoff to championships this year"

What changes have been made this year thus far? This game is exactly the same as every other year, with no organizational differences championship wise. We also don't have an endgame this year, and for such an easy challenge, this seems odd.

Think about it, the only challenge is team coordination, everything else is just pure driver twitch skills. Now go back your pictures of the truss from kickoff, I know you took them, that thing is hefty. We had two or three people hanging from it at the Upper Darby Kickoff, no sag.

Why would they bother to build such a hefty truss that could be replaced with a taught rope? We believe the reason is because there is an endgame we don't know about yet. Now, look at the extremely detailed rules about height requirements for the goalie, these are super detailed, yet so horrible.

No one is going to be able to play affective defense with 6 inch diameter pole that cannot be articulated. Having a dedicated goalie will be a drag on the rest of the team (missing out on tri-assists). I believe, personally, the lack of a height limit will be extended to the incoming endgame in which you must attempt a hang.

A hang? We had a hang last year? We did, but it sucked, those pyramids were $@#$ near impossible to climb to the top, everyone just did level one holds. They were a major disappointment. Why not give us a chance to retry it.

A Mid-season added endgame challenge seems so plausible right now.

sets aside tinfoil hat

^^this
Here (http://jthomaseng.com/pdffiles/GP%2012x12-00.pdf) is the truss spec sheet. This thing is a heavy duty lighting truss. A 30' span can support 1726 lbs evenly distributed. Saving weight for a later endgame addition might be a very good idea.

[AWB]

so we get 10 pts for assist, 10 for going over the truss, 10 for a robot catching it (assuming it does) and 10 for score on the high goal, right?

edit: and another 10 if we pass it to a robot our the scoring zone

[UnTrustedTruss]

^^this
Here (http://jthomaseng.com/pdffiles/GP%2012x12-00.pdf) is the truss spec sheet. This thing is a heavy duty lighting truss. A 30' span can support 1726 lbs evenly distributed. Saving weight for a later endgame addition might be a very good idea.

Just added this fact to this (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=124038) speculation thread. I think it is best we move this over there to clear the room for questions here. :)

[MetalJacket]

so we get 10 pts for assist, 10 for going over the truss, 10 for a robot catching it (assuming it does) and 10 for score on the high goal, right?

edit: and another 10 if we pass it to a robot our the scoring zone

Wow, can't believe I forgot the truss and catch bonuses :o ... yes, your analysis appears to be correct

[UnTrustedTruss]

This I find as Extremely false because my team, Greater Rochester Robotics (G.R.R.) 340, on practice day at Finger Lakes Regional we showed a full 30 point climb and we preformed that almost every match after that including at the Buckeye Regional ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyq0w7H76IU ). We also saw at least 2 other teams do a 30 point climb at Buckeye.
That is an awesome climb! Although many did succeed, a much great number didn't even attempt more then one. I feel like that was very much outside of the spirit of FRC, and I see no reason for them not to attempt to get us to try again.

[pfreivald]

I'm not sure if shooting into the high goal will be more difficult than it at first seems, but this game almost seems...too easy. (Drat, jinxed my whole team there, didn't I?)

That means that the challenge is in taking this "too easy" challenge and doing it better than everyone else--which is never easy.

Still, it's as or more challenging than designing a robot for Lunacy, and should be well more fun to play/watch.

[mcchev]

Has anyone started thinking about drive train yet? I personally have more experience with mechanum, but I'm not sure what my team is thinking about drive train. Any ideas?

[Charles Boehm]

By my count, 60.

[Alyssa3044]

Has anyone started thinking about drive train yet? I personally have more experience with mechanum, but I'm not sure what my team is thinking about drive train. Any ideas?
I'm wondering the same thing. I generally design the drive system for our team, but this year so far we feel like agility is above being defensive (not my personal though, I feel like good wheels with nice grip are a great thing to have on the chance that everything else in our robot decides to fail and we can't fix it before the next match). I've personally never done mechanum, we tend to stay more towards tank drive. But there has already been talk of swerve drive and butterfly drive. However we are leaning more towards mechanum because I am moving on to the more complicated subsystems in mechanical, as is my co-captain. So we will see what happens. Any help with mechanum would be appreciated though!

[Darth Drew]

Okay, I've read the rules pretty thoroughly, and there's something I can't figure out, if my ball starts in the driver zone, and I can't cross between zones, and I can't pass between zones (driver and human player) and the ball must be entered from the side of the field, how do I get the ball onto the field?

[kelseysea]

I've noticed users talking about how this challenge is a blend of multiple past challenges. One of our college mentors referenced Breakaway (2010) often during brainstorming as a similar game principal.

The past challenge I haven't seen mentioned yet that may be helpful in design ideas (ball transport!) and such is Overdrive (2008) due to the large playing pieces.

Edit: I noticed this thread after posting: 2008 actuated forklifts (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=124050)

[Mike9966]

We weighed our inflated ball this afternoon, and it was 2.75 lbs. Now, my question is, how much variance is there in the weight of the balls?

Could make a big difference in shooting it.

Mike

[gchen694]

What is the weight of the game ball? I can't find it in the manual.
The ball weighs 2.75 lbs.

[iPenguin]

Okay, I've read the rules pretty thoroughly, and there's something I can't figure out, if my ball starts in the driver zone, and I can't cross between zones, and I can't pass between zones (driver and human player) and the ball must be entered from the side of the field, how do I get the ball onto the field?

I'm guessing you're referring to the autonomous period. Before the match begins, you are allowed to preload a ball onto your robot following the specifications in G5:
For ROBOTS starting in the white ZONE, the TEAM may preload one (1) of their ALLIANCE’s BALLS such that the BALL is touching their ROBOT.

For ROBOTS starting in their GOALIE ZONE the TEAM may decide if the BALL is: staged between the TRUSS and the ZONE LINE and not contacting an ALLIANCE partner, or removed from the FIELD for the MATCH.

If a ROBOT does not report to a MATCH, its ALLIANCE may decide if the BALL is: staged between the TRUSS and the ZONE LINE and not contacting an ALLIANCE partner, or removed from the FIELD for the MATCH.

Violation: If the situation is not corrected before the start of the MATCH, TECHNICAL FOUL per BALL improperly staged.

[Caleb Sykes]

That is an awesome climb! Although many did succeed, a much great number didn't even attempt more then one. I feel like that was very much outside of the spirit of FRC, and I see no reason for them not to attempt to get us to try again.

Really, you think that analyzing the game and deciding that one aspect of it is not worth the effort for your team is not in the spirit of FRC? I have to be misunderstanding you, because that is frankly ridiculous.

Did your team attempt to 30 point climb? And shoot frisbees? And pick up frisbees off of the ground? And dump colored discs into pyramid goal? And full court shoot? And score 7 discs in autonomous? And build your robot under 30 inches? And put a tall 84" blocker on your robot?

You don't need to attempt everything to succeed or to be "in the spirit of FRC", you only need to do a small handful of things well.

[Darth Drew]

I'm guessing you're referring to the autonomous period…
Sorry, I'll be more specific, I was refering to teleop, how does the human player get the ball to the robot while following all of these rules:

3.2.7.5 G35
BALLS may only be retrieved from the PEDESTAL and only if the PEDESTAL is lit in the ALLIANCE’s color.
3.2.7.7 G37
A BALL inbounded after retrieval from the PEDESTAL must be entered on to the FIELD from the side of the FIELD (i.e. over the GUARDRAIL).
3.2.7.8 G38
HUMAN PLAYERS may not pass the BALL to a HUMAN PLAYER in another HUMAN PLAYER AREA (passing the BALL within an ALLIANCE STATION or HUMAN PLAYER AREA is permitted).
3.2.7.9 G39
During the MATCH, TEAMS must remain in contact with the area of the FIELD (ALLIANCE STATION or HUMAN PLAYER AREA) in which they started the MATCH. Exceptions will be granted for inadvertent, momentary, and inconsequential infractions and in cases concerning safety.

Unless by "passing the BALL within an ALLIANCE STATION or HUMAN PLAYER AREA is permitted" they mean that you can pass the ball between those two zones?

[petrokid96]

I feel like that was very much outside of the spirit of FRC.

I did not mean it to be jerky so sorry if you read it as I was. I was just stating my opinion on the climbing.

[Coin3]

Darth Drew, it appears that the only legal way to introduce a new ball to the field is to take the ball that is on the pedestal(once it's lit up) and toss it onto the field from the side of the alliance station.

Since you can't pass between human players from the alliance station to the human player area, there is no way for somebody in the human player area to introduce any new balls. They can only catch and pass balls that are passed to them by a robot on the field.

[mrnoble]

I've noticed users talking about how this challenge is a blend of multiple past challenges. One of our college mentors referenced Breakaway (2010) often during brainstorming as a similar game principal.

The past challenge I haven't seen mentioned yet that may be helpful in design ideas (ball transport!) and such is Overdrive (2008) due to the large playing pieces.
[/URL]

There were a number of teams in 2008 that built successful designs that, for the most part, can transfer over to this year's game. 1625 and 1114 quickly come to mind.

[iPenguin]

Sorry, I'll be more specific, I was refering to teleop, how does the human player get the ball to the robot while following all of these rules:

3.2.7.5 G35
BALLS may only be retrieved from the PEDESTAL and only if the PEDESTAL is lit in the ALLIANCE’s color.
3.2.7.7 G37
A BALL inbounded after retrieval from the PEDESTAL must be entered on to the FIELD from the side of the FIELD (i.e. over the GUARDRAIL).
3.2.7.8 G38
HUMAN PLAYERS may not pass the BALL to a HUMAN PLAYER in another HUMAN PLAYER AREA (passing the BALL within an ALLIANCE STATION or HUMAN PLAYER AREA is permitted).
3.2.7.9 G39
During the MATCH, TEAMS must remain in contact with the area of the FIELD (ALLIANCE STATION or HUMAN PLAYER AREA) in which they started the MATCH. Exceptions will be granted for inadvertent, momentary, and inconsequential infractions and in cases concerning safety.

Unless by "passing the BALL within an ALLIANCE STATION or HUMAN PLAYER AREA is permitted" they mean that you can pass the ball between those two zones?

Say for example you are on the Red Alliance. Based on the image from section 2.2.7, it seems the only place to inbound a ball is at the indicated markings I have drawn.
http://i.imgur.com/ONDkitv.jpg (http://imgur.com/ONDkitv)

As for the second part of your question, the keyword there is within, as in if there are 2 Human Players in the Alliance Station or 2 Human Players in THE SAME Human Player Area, then they can pass the ball between them. Note again rule G38 where a Human Player in 1 Human Player Area cannot pass a ball to the other Human Player who is in the opposite Human Player Area.


EDIT: Does anyone know how I can shrink that photo to fit within the normal width of the thread?

[Darth Drew]

Oh, okay, I was confused because when I saw the video I assumed the people on the sides would be introducing the ball, and I didn't realize that the driver zone extended around the corner, thanks.

[E_puello]

Are the balls form auto removed from play at the start of teleop if they were not scored. If they are not are they considered field debris or are is one of them chosen to be played?

[Coin3]

Are the balls form auto removed from play at the start of teleop if they were not scored. If they are not are they considered field debris or are is one of them chosen to be played?

The remaining balls from auto must be scored before the first cycle can begin. Since the cycle hasn't begun yet any assists, truss throws, or catches that you get with those balls won't count as bonus points.

[m1506m]

What is the weight of the game ball? I can't find it in the manual.

Just a hair under 5 pounds

[z_beeblebrox]

Just a hair under 5 pounds

Where are you getting that? We weighed ours and it's about 2.75 pounds.

[Justin Shelley]

Where are you getting that? We weighed ours and it's about 2.75 pounds.

And when we weighed ours it was about 2.5lbs. I am inclined to think weight variances like this will effect how the robot shoots :(

[Alesha_webb]

What's with all the crazy height requirements? Has anyone fully figured it out?

[Justin Shelley]

What's with all the crazy height requirements? Has anyone fully figured it out?

Unless your in your goal zone your robot is restricted to a 5' height. Inside your goal zone something that will fit inside a 6" cylinder can extend upwards.

[Oblarg]

Unless your in your goal zone your robot is restricted to a 5' height. Inside your goal zone something that will fit inside a 6" cylinder can extend upwards.

Honestly, does FIRST expect anyone at all to do this? It sounds completely non-viable.

[Justin Shelley]

Honestly, does FIRST expect anyone at all to do this? It sounds completely non-viable.

Unless that pointless extra height has something to do with a yet to be mentioned part of the game :ahh:

[Oblarg]

Unless that pointless extra height has something to do with a yet to be mentioned part of the game :ahh:

Color me skeptical.

As a mildly humorous aside, does anyone see any rule against building a 5'-tall, 50''-long wall-on-wheels which extends 20'' on either side, with the aim of parking it in front of the opposing driver station to obstruct vision? While I clearly don't expect anyone to actually do this (it'd be obnoxious and decidedly un-sportsmanlike), I can't find anything disallowing it.

[Timeroot]

Well, most people could see over a 5' wall? I think. :P

[ToddF]

It has come up that this year's equivalent to last year's 5 disk auto mode is the two ball auto mode. If one of your two alliance partners can't shoot high goals, take their ball and place it in front of your shooter. First shoot your ball, then pick up and shoot theirs. This gets you 35 total auto points instead of 20, if it had just sat on the ground.

The defense against such a two ball auto mode is to park a tall defensive bot in their shot line before the match. Rather than being useless, that appendage now becomes worth 35 points. (Unless the shooter has the ability to sense the blocker and rotate to shoot around the appendage.)

[ToddF]

As a mildly humorous aside, does anyone see any rule against building a 5'-tall, 50''-long wall-on-wheels which extends 20'' on either side, with the aim of parking it in front of the opposing driver station to obstruct vision?

4.2.1 R8
ROBOT parts shall not be made from hazardous materials, be unsafe, cause an unsafe condition, or interfere with the
operation of other ROBOTS.
Examples of items that will violate R8include (but are not limited to):
A. Shields, curtains, or any other devices or materials designed or used to obstruct or
limit the vision of any DRIVERS and/or COACHES and/or interfere with their ability to
safely control their ROBOT
B. Speakers, sirens, air horns, or other audio devices that generate sound at a level
sufficient to be a distraction
C. Any devices or decorations specifically intended to jam or interfere with the remote
sensing capabilities of another ROBOT, including vision systems, acoustic range finders,
sonars, infrared proximity detectors, etc. (e.g. including imagery on your ROBOT that, to
a reasonably astute observer, mimics the VISION TARGET)
D. Exposed lasers other than Class I.
page

[Oblarg]

4.2.1 R8
ROBOT parts shall not be made from hazardous materials, be unsafe, cause an unsafe condition, or interfere with the
operation of other ROBOTS.
Examples of items that will violate R8include (but are not limited to):
A. Shields, curtains, or any other devices or materials designed or used to obstruct or
limit the vision of any DRIVERS and/or COACHES and/or interfere with their ability to
safely control their ROBOT
B. Speakers, sirens, air horns, or other audio devices that generate sound at a level
sufficient to be a distraction
C. Any devices or decorations specifically intended to jam or interfere with the remote
sensing capabilities of another ROBOT, including vision systems, acoustic range finders,
sonars, infrared proximity detectors, etc. (e.g. including imagery on your ROBOT that, to
a reasonably astute observer, mimics the VISION TARGET)
D. Exposed lasers other than Class I.
page

Well, there we have it. That settles that!

[*Rachelle*]

Just a hair under 5 pounds
Andymark's specs say the ball weighs 2.75 lbs. (but does not state if that is the inflated weight or not). Maybe your scale is off?
I have seen multiple people say the ball weighs 5 lbs. Where are you getting this information from?

[mman1506]

Who puts the ball on the pedestal?

[cbudrecki]

Who puts the ball on the pedestal?

Field crew. They are in charge of chasing balls and loading the pedestals.

[mechlectrician7]

I feel like there is a bigger purpose for the truss...i mean why would they put all the time and money into something that a rope, a rod, or something of the sort could replace.

But besides that i'm interested to see how teams are going to shoot the balls...should be a fairly interesting year

[sony3756]

Is it at all possible to get points for an assist if the opposite alliance accidentally gains possession of your game piece? Or is that completely ridiculous?

[Oblarg]

Is it at all possible to get points for an assist if the opposite alliance accidentally gains possession of your game piece? Or is that completely ridiculous?

If the opposing alliance possesses your alliance's game piece, then they incur a technical foul and you receive 50 points.

[JohnSchneider]

Is it at all possible to get points for an assist if the opposite alliance accidentally gains possession of your game piece? Or is that completely ridiculous?

Your assists do not reset. You would gain no further assists from an opponents robot contacting your game piece in a yet uncontacted zone.

[BBray_T1296]

So there is no goalie zone height restriction. If your robot pokes the ceiling can you complain that they lied?

[GearMan98]

Well, it has its advantages and disadvantages.
THE GOOD STUFF
-Provides for a lot more design possibilities. It's always seemed like, in the past, we had a few certain best ways to do the task. One that won the most competitions, got the most points.
-It forces you to depend on your alliance more. People need to cooperate at a really deep level to win.
-Gets rid of robot specialization. For example, last year, our team was the "designated climber", which got us far. This year, that won't fly. Every robot needs to be able to perform every task well if the team wants to mesh well with the alliance.
THE BAD STUFF
-Seems very unoriginal. I can't really put it into words, but Aerial Assist seems to be "missing" something. This could be just me getting used to it, as it's very, very different from every other challenge.
-It forces you to depend on your alliance more. FIRST's notion of "cooperatition" is a very good thing, but I feel like this may be taking it a step too far. I also feel like it's putting more pressure on rookie teams to build and compete at an unrealistic level.
-NO ENDGAME. But why? The endgame was amazing, it made every challenge seem like two different games in one. It's very possible they cut it out because of the impossibility of robot specialization, which would make sense, as the one game is complicated enough already.
(Please note all of this is just a collection of my very early opinions, as the season goes on, I will probably change my views on most, if not all, of this.)
I think it's going to be a very interesting year, regardless of anything. This is a totally new type of challenge, and, although I'm not sure how it will go, I get the feeling it's going to be remembered for a long time to come. Also, I think it's very important that we make use of this forum this year. We should all make sure each team knows as much about as many other robots as possible so we can work together more effectively.

[Aur0r4]

I have to respectfully disagree that this game is "bland".

As we dug into the possible gameplay strategies, it became very apparent that this game will play out similar to a football game...only with two balls :D . Complete with a (probable) line of scrimmage in the white zone where the two opposing alliances are simultaneously playing defense against the advancing opponents while trying to move up with their ball. If the NFL is interesting...this could be twice the fun.

Many, many different "plays" started to emerge, including some that illustrated how genius the middle human player really can be.

Make no mistake....this could be one of the most interesting games we've ever seen (and I'm a game cynic). There are some crazy strategy possibilities that can can change by the second in each match.

I'm actually quite excited.....secret end game or not!

[BBray_T1296]

With all this talk about 1O 2D Alliances being as points-capable as a 2O 1D or 3O alliance (at least in many regionals) I would like to point out this EXTREMELY important fact:


5.3.4 Qualification Seeding

All Teams participating in the Tournament are seeded during the Qualification MATCHES. If the number of Teams in attendance is 'n', they are seeded '1' through 'n', with '1' being the highest seeded Team and 'n' being the lowest seeded Team.

The FMS ranks all Teams in decreasing order, using the following sorting criteria:

Table 5-1: Qualification MATCH Ranking Criteria
1st order sort Qualification Score
2nd order sort Cumulative Sum of ASSIST Points
...


This means that winning matches is the most important (obviously)
but if all you do is play by yourself, you are crippling yourself if other teams have the same win-loss score as you, if they got their points using assists.

[Aur0r4]

With all this talk about 1O 2D Alliances being as points-capable as a 2O 1D or 3O alliance (at least in many regionals) I would like to point out this EXTREMELY important fact:




This means that winning matches is the most important (obviously)
but if all you do is play by yourself, you are crippling yourself if other teams have the same win-loss score as you, if they got their points using assists.

Correct!

Teams must also remember that this game is unlike ANY game we've played in a very long time. The critical difference is that there is only one game piece in play for your alliance at one time.

You don't really have the option of being "just a great scorer" in this game. You simply don't have the pieces to score if you can't get it up the field. You can't get it up the field if the opposing "linebackers" try to stop you. You can't get out of that without tossing or "punting". That's not terribly effective if you (or your partners) can't catch. Then there's the human player in the mix. And the truss. And the other team trying to do the same thing in the same space.

As they say....specialization is for insects. This game is a great example of this! The key design concept for 2014 is "Multi-Role Robots".

[bduddy]

Unless that pointless extra height has something to do with a yet to be mentioned part of the game :ahh:Umm... pointless? You mean, other than blocking the high goal, like they showed in the video?

Did everyone here even watch the game animation, let alone read the rulebook? I mean, seriously, some of the things I've been reading....

[pfreivald]

Umm... pointless? You mean, other than blocking the high goal, like they showed in the video?

Did everyone here even watch the game animation, let alone read the rulebook? I mean, seriously, some of the things I've been reading....

I think the argument is that a 6" wide blocker trying to defend 22 feet of goal is pointless. There's no way your robot can drive 12 feet in the time it takes the shooter to rotate thirty degrees.

A defense bot would be best served by ignoring the 6" extension and building an excellent drive train.

[Rohawk1]

I think the argument is that a 6" wide blocker trying to defend 22 feet of goal is pointless. There's no way your robot can drive 12 feet in the time it takes the shooter to rotate thirty degrees.

A defense bot would be best served by ignoring the 6" extension and building an excellent drive train.

Exactly, in order to have a competitive defense bot this year, the drive train has to be fast, strong and agile. Drivers will have to be extremely good this year.

[ninjosh97]

I have to respectfully disagree that this game is "bland".

As we dug into the possible gameplay strategies, it became very apparent that this game will play out similar to a football game...only with two balls :D . Complete with a (probable) line of scrimmage in the white zone where the two opposing alliances are simultaneously playing defense against the advancing opponents while trying to move up with their ball. If the NFL is interesting...this could be twice the fun.

Many, many different "plays" started to emerge, including some that illustrated how genius the middle human player really can be.

Make no mistake....this could be one of the most interesting games we've ever seen (and I'm a game cynic). There are some crazy strategy possibilities that can can change by the second in each match.

I'm actually quite excited.....secret end game or not!

What kind of things were you thinking about for the human player?
I'm curious! :D

[heisenburger]

Where do you start at when programming?

[alexander.h]

Just to get things straight, how many balls per alliance are on the field at a time?

[cbudrecki]

Just to get things straight, how many balls per alliance are on the field at a time?

during autonomous, up to 3. After the autonomous balls are put in goals (still unclear whether or not these would actually be SCORED), only 1 ball per alliance.

[dubiousSwain]

Color me skeptical.

As a mildly humorous aside, does anyone see any rule against building a 5'-tall, 50''-long wall-on-wheels which extends 20'' on either side, with the aim of parking it in front of the opposing driver station to obstruct vision? While I clearly don't expect anyone to actually do this (it'd be obnoxious and decidedly un-sportsmanlike), I can't find anything disallowing it.

first example in R8


A. Shields, curtains, or any other devices or materials designed or used to obstruct or limit the vision of any DRIVERS and/or COACHES and/or interfere with their ability to safely control their
ROBOT

[sandman730]

Just to jump on the speculation train... That Truss looks awfully sturdy. Anyone know if it could support 720 lbs?

[GearMan98]

It's rated for 1726. There's another thread going on about that right now.

[Racer26]

With all this talk about 1O 2D Alliances being as points-capable as a 2O 1D or 3O alliance (at least in many regionals) I would like to point out this EXTREMELY important fact:

This means that winning matches is the most important (obviously)
but if all you do is play by yourself, you are crippling yourself if other teams have the same win-loss score as you, if they got their points using assists.

Yes. Number one sort is W-L-T (QS) though. Winning the match is more important than scoring assist points. As I've said elsewhere on here, when paired with capable teams that won't slow them down, the elites will do assists. When their 2 alliance partners assisting would result in less total points scored? They won't hesitate to go solo.

This is much like 1114s conscious decision to forego auto points in 2013 in favour of a 30pt climber.

[iPenguin]

The defense against such a two ball auto mode is to park a tall defensive bot in their shot line before the match. Rather than being useless, that appendage now becomes worth 35 points. (Unless the shooter has the ability to sense the blocker and rotate to shoot around the appendage.)

I think you're forgetting a pretty important rule in the form of G4:
When placed on the FIELD, each ROBOT must be:
A. in compliance with all ROBOT rules (i.e. have passed Inspection),
B. confined to its STARTING CONFIGURATION,
C. entirely within their GOALIE ZONE, or
entirely within the white ZONE and between the TRUSS and their GOALS, and
D. fully supported by the floor.


(emphasis mine on C)

[themccannman]

It's rated for 1726. There's another thread going on about that right now.

Chances are it was meant for the end game, but I'm guessing the GDC didn't want to bring back climbing/hanging 2 years in a row so they tossed it out. It does bother me though that they would spend the extra money for a truss that holds nearly a ton when they could have bought a much cheaper, much less sturdy truss.

[Wraithe]

I like this years game, but I wish there was an end game to it. All the games I've been apart of have had an endgame.

[Tem1514 Mentor]

I like this years game, but I wish there was an end game to it. All the games I've been apart of have had an endgame.

The entire teleop is an end game as all your partners have to work together to get those extra points. Just like the bridge in the past. now it's the whole game, love it.

[GearMan98]

Chances are it was meant for the end game, but I'm guessing the GDC didn't want to bring back climbing/hanging 2 years in a row so they tossed it out. It does bother me though that they would spend the extra money for a truss that holds nearly a ton when they could have bought a much cheaper, much less sturdy truss.

Exactly what I was thinking. I can't imagine why they would keep it around. Guess we'll find out!

[ninjosh97]

I don't quite understand the ranking system...
5.3.4 Qualification Seeding
All Teams participating in the Tournament are seeded during the Qualification MATCHES. If the number of Teams in attendance is 'n', they are seeded '1' through 'n', with '1' being the highest seeded Team and 'n' being the lowest seeded Team.
The FMS ranks all Teams in decreasing order, using the following sorting criteria:
Table 5-1: Qualification MATCH Ranking Criteria
1st order sort Qualification Score
2nd order sort Cumulative Sum of ASSIST Points
3rd order sort Cumulative Sum of AUTO points
4th order sort Cumulative sum of TRUSS and CATCH points
5th order sort Cumulative sum of TELEOP GOAL points and FOUL points
6th order sort Random sorting by the FMS

So... does "Second order sort" mean, if two teams have the same Qualification Score, or do they all contribute to your rank?

[alectronic]

I don't quite understand the ranking system...
(...)
So... does "Second order sort" mean, if two teams have the same Qualification Score, or do they all contribute to your rank?

If the first sort is tied, they go to the second. Etc.
But QP is tied a lot, since it is common for teams to have the same number of wins, etc.

[Bryan Herbst]

Chances are it was meant for the end game, but I'm guessing the GDC didn't want to bring back climbing/hanging 2 years in a row so they tossed it out. It does bother me though that they would spend the extra money for a truss that holds nearly a ton when they could have bought a much cheaper, much less sturdy truss.

I wouldn't assume that FIRST spend an inordinate amount of money on the truss materials.

The material looks identical to what the event staff put up for A/V equipment at every regional. I wouldn't be surprised if FIRST struck a good deal with Show Ready Events to rent them out for a season, or if FIRST actually owned some of the equipment already.

[alectronic]

The material looks identical to what the event staff put up for A/V equipment at every regional. I wouldn't be surprised if FIRST struck a good deal with Show Ready Events to rent them out for a season, or if FIRST actually owned some of the equipment already.

You're correct that it is similar to that the event staff use. But there is a couple reasons they wouldn't use a rented one, the primary being that it will get damage from the robots, and a rental company wouldn't want that. We also have 4 districts this year, and they don't have production companies, so the truss is purchased and sent over by FIRST. Plus, I think that is reusable enough that there's no reason not to purchase it, they can have it for later.

Also, the manual specifically says what and where they got it:

The middle of the FIELD is spanned by the TRUSS. It is a General Purpose 1 ft. x 1 ft. square TRUSS made by James Thomas Engineering

[ninjosh97]

If the first sort is tied, they go to the second. Etc.
But QP is tied a lot, since it is common for teams to have the same number of wins, etc.

Ah ok.

Thanks for the clarification.

[alectronic]

Ah ok.

Thanks for the clarification.

At the events, be sure to check out the pit display. It will show all the teams in rank order, and show you each of those items it uses for sorting (QP, Assist Points, etc) by team.

[kathrynmariel]

Wait so what is the max amount of points you can score in a single run?

3 assists+ over the truss + catch + high goal= 60
(30) (10) (10) (10)
atleast that is what I see as the most amount of points possible

[Sean Raia]

I have to respectfully disagree that this game is "bland".

As we dug into the possible gameplay strategies, it became very apparent that this game will play out similar to a football game...only with two balls :D . Complete with a (probable) line of scrimmage in the white zone where the two opposing alliances are simultaneously playing defense against the advancing opponents while trying to move up with their ball. If the NFL is interesting...this could be twice the fun.

Many, many different "plays" started to emerge, including some that illustrated how genius the middle human player really can be.

Make no mistake....this could be one of the most interesting games we've ever seen (and I'm a game cynic). There are some crazy strategy possibilities that can can change by the second in each match.

I'm actually quite excited.....secret end game or not!

Thank you. Emphasizing this

[Woolly]

I'm just going to throw out an idea here: Maybe the community of FRC should come up with a standard retro-reflective target that can be placed on robots that intend to catch the ball. I don't see any rules against having retro-reflective tape on the robot, and I see no technical problems as long as it wouldn't confuse any targeting programs as to what a goal is and what a potential catching robot is. Something as simple as a vertical line of retro reflective tape would meet this requirement, as the only time a robot would confuse a goal and a robot is when it's tipped over and probably not going to shoot anyway.

[4AngryNutjobs]

this game is called aerial assist... what's the aerial part? :yikes:

[alexander.h]

this game is called aerial assist... what's the aerial part? :yikes:

The "aerial" part is when the robots pass the ball through the air (e.g., over the truss).

[Sean Raia]

this game is called aerial assist... what's the aerial part? :yikes:

The part where throwing the ball in the AIR is awarded extra points?

I don't know, call it a hunch.

[alexander.h]

The part where throwing the ball in the AIR is awarded extra points?

I don't know, call it a hunch.

I think it's when you throw the ball over the truss ; there, you get 10 bonus points (if you score, of course).

[AndrewPospeshil]

I think it's when you throw the ball over the truss ; there, you get 10 bonus points (if you score, of course).

But it seems to me no focus was placed on this. It was mentioned once briefly and then never again.

Maybe it's called Aerial Assault simply because, technically, it is an aerial game seeing as balls will be airborne and it alliterates (is that a verb?) but that seems a bit sketchy to me.

[brandon.cottrell]

I actually really like this game.

[Libby K]

But it seems to me no focus was placed on this. It was mentioned once briefly and then never again.

Maybe it's called Aerial Assault simply because, technically, it is an aerial game seeing as balls will be airborne and it alliterates (is that a verb?) but that seems a bit sketchy to me.

Aerial Assist combines the throwing and catching of balls with cooperative alliance play. During a match, you're going to see balls popping up over the truss and into the goals pretty frequently. It'll be the main focus for spectators.

[EastswatG2E9]

Anybody got any good ideas for offensive strategies.

[brandon.cottrell]

Anybody got any good ideas for offensive strategies.

I feel like a lot of people are going to use strategies from 2008, except with an additional overpass at the end of the field.

[dubiousSwain]

I feel like a lot of people are going to use strategies from 2008, except with an additional overpass at the end of the field.

except with more passing

[Incognito]

Does anyone know or see in the manual anywhere that says specifically when the lights on the pedestal will turn on, allowing the ball to be taken from the pedestal and put into play? I see no indication of when this light comes on, only that the human player can only take the ball off the pedestal when it does light up.

[AndrewPospeshil]

Aerial Assist combines the throwing and catching of balls with cooperative alliance play. During a match, you're going to see balls popping up over the truss and into the goals pretty frequently. It'll be the main focus for spectators.

I understand the assist part; that seems to be the main focus of the game and I think it's a good one. It teaches teams to work together and communicate, brings elite teams a bit lower because they now rely on their teammates who could potentially be rookies. But at the same time it doesn't seem that aerial. Yeah balls are flying into goals, but how is that different from Rebound Rumble, Ultimate Ascent, etc. At least those challenges has some exciting game elements; UA has super fast flying frisbees launching across the court,RR was super action packed as well. But the main focus of this game, the assists, seems pretty boring imo. Assuming the average team will push balls, we get to see a lot of bashing and not much else. Because this is a more defense-oriented game, it leaves a lot to be desired in the "thrill" department; if you don't understand the game/aren't on a team, it seems pretty boring.

just my two cents but this game is pretty vanilla

[Libby K]

Does anyone know or see in the manual anywhere that says specifically when the lights on the pedestal will turn on, allowing the ball to be taken from the pedestal and put into play? I see no indication of when this light comes on, only that the human player can only take the ball off the pedestal when it does light up.

When the alliance's ball is scored, then the pedestal will light up and the next ball is available for play.

Source: Talking to Frank at the kickoff in Manchester. I am not in front of the manual at the moment, so please feel free to seek out a non-hearsay official answer.

But at the same time it doesn't seem that aerial. Yeah balls are flying into goals, but how is that different from Rebound Rumble, Ultimate Ascent, etc. At least those challenges has some exciting game elements; UA has super fast flying frisbees launching across the court,RR was super action packed as well. But the main focus of this game, the assists, seems pretty boring imo. Assuming the average team will push balls, we get to see a lot of bashing and not much else. Because this is a more defense-oriented game, it leaves a lot to be desired in the "thrill" department; if you don't understand the game/aren't on a team, it seems pretty boring.

just my two cents but this game is pretty vanilla

It's just a fun, clever name. I think you might be taking it a little bit too seriously.

[dubiousSwain]

It's just a fun, clever name. I think you might be taking it a little bit too seriously.
Straight from the source.

[mrnoble]

How are shooting prototypes going? If Ri3D and our own experience is anything to go by, there are plenty of people struggling to get the ball to go very far.

[Canon reeves]

I believe the prevailing strategy will be one that has a general lay out but has a million inner works. Lets say I'm on the blue alliance, I would score in auto then I would stay in the blue zone, one of my members would go to the white (someone that can catch) and then the last go to red. I would get the ball, shoot it over the truss to my partner in the white, and then play defense, then he will pass it to partner in red and play defense, then the cycle starts over. This could be adapted but basically if the ball is not in the area before yours, or in your area you would play defense. I don't believe the robot will be the complicated part of this game, its the team work.

[Canon reeves]

Our shooter will most likely be a catapult with a hexagon at the end to hold the ball, since we want a long frame we will have our feeders on the side and they will pull it on the catapult, then the feed mech will stand up to aid in catching, I want to have bars around the catapult that also aid in catching. One thing to watch for in designing is that some teams (including my own) will have 6 motor drive trains, and if you have an extension that is rigid, it is very likely we will see some feeder shearing.

[Canon reeves]

there is the possible strategy of the midfield bot passing scoring bot then playing anti defense against any bots trying to interfere. I don't think it will be this organized though, it will be a big rush and coaches will have big role this year because the driver can't watch its alliance partners when it is defending? And what would be the strategy if say I am in the blue alliance and the my ball is in the red zone or white and my partners are trying to score and I have stopped the opponents ball and are playing good D on them and my alliance scores, would it be better to retrieve and assist? or continue to stop the ball?
These kinds of situations need to be thought out by drivers and discussed with alliance partners!

[Canon reeves]

I understand the assist part; that seems to be the main focus of the game and I think it's a good one. It teaches teams to work together and communicate, brings elite teams a bit lower because they now rely on their teammates who could potentially be rookies. But at the same time it doesn't seem that aerial. Yeah balls are flying into goals, but how is that different from Rebound Rumble, Ultimate Ascent, etc. At least those challenges has some exciting game elements; UA has super fast flying frisbees launching across the court,RR was super action packed as well. But the main focus of this game, the assists, seems pretty boring imo. Assuming the average team will push balls, we get to see a lot of bashing and not much else. Because this is a more defense-oriented game, it leaves a lot to be desired in the "thrill" department; if you don't understand the game/aren't on a team, it seems pretty boring.

just my two cents but this game is pretty vanilla
I believe this will a super exciting game? The game is simple enough to were one bot can do it all, (except goalie), but it can't score high without assists? It means 3 decent bots can outscore one great bot. It will be a very complex simple game, allot of high speed collisions and driving, it will be so much more action packed than past games where each robot does their own thing and just score, this is a great game. just my opinion, no offense implied.

[jtaffy]

Andymark's specs say the ball weighs 2.75 lbs. (but does not state if that is the inflated weight or not). Maybe your scale is off?
I have seen multiple people say the ball weighs 5 lbs. Where are you getting this information from?

I'm not sure how people think its supposed to be 5 lbs. Our uninflated ball is 2.75ish and inflated its like 2.8ish. We weighed on our scale just to make sure.

[Canon reeves]

can we start out in autonomous with our parts extended past bumper frame because we are loaded with a ball?

[themccannman]

can we start out in autonomous with our parts extended past bumper frame because we are loaded with a ball?

Read the manual.

[cmrnpizzo14]

can we start out in autonomous with our parts extended past bumper frame because we are loaded with a ball?

According to G4B it sounds like a no.


G4 When placed on the FIELD, each ROBOT must be:
A. in compliance with all ROBOT rules (i.e. have passed Inspection),
B. confined to its STARTING CONFIGURATION,
C. entirely within their GOALIE ZONE, or entirely within the white ZONE and between the TRUSS and their GOALS, and
D. fully supported by the floor.

[Gog]

I like it!
I like how FIRST is incorporating more and more of team work rather than three robots just having the same colour.

[chiefwebmaster]

Another possible use of the height extension while in the goalie zone could be to actually launch the ball. Like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3WWfiUkTc0) except with a smaller arm. Just because you are in the goalie zone doesn't necessarily mean you have to be on defense. You could use it for you scoring mechanism.

[GaryVoshol]

Another possible use of the height extension while in the goalie zone could be to actually launch the ball. Like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3WWfiUkTc0) except with a smaller arm. Just because you are in the goalie zone doesn't necessarily mean you have to be on defense. You could use it for you scoring mechanism.

Except you're in the GOALIE ZONE at the wrong end of the FIELD.

[CreativeName55]

Does anyone happen to know where the robots can start the match? Is there a line or something similar in the white zone they must start on, or do they start anywhere within the white zone? Same question applies to starting in the goalie zone.