View Full Version : Assist System explained
TheDrillKeeper
04-01-2014, 12:23
Hey Chief Delphi forums! I was a little confused by all the different plays and how exactly the assists are counted, so I decided to try and figure out for myself a set of rules for the assist system.
As said in the video detailing the assist plays, the system will count assists/possessions in the way that gives the play the most points. A robot is given an assist point when it is able to be assigned its own unique zone with no other robots. In order to do this, the system will find a robot/robots that has its own unique zone and nullify the other possessions by that robot in order to give other robots their own unique zone.
In addition, balls from the autonomous period cannot gain assist points, even during teleop. This is because assists are scored during a cycle, and the balls from autonomous are not part of a cycle due to not starting on the pedestal. Try to score them during autonomous so you aren't occupied with a dead ball during teleop. (thanks MasterEric)
http://i42.tinypic.com/2d9tpqs.png
This seems to match exactly with the manual's "ASSISTS are earned when a unique ALLIANCE ROBOT POSSESSES the ALLIANCE’S BALL in a unique ZONE (i.e. red, white, or blue ZONE) during a CYCLE." My conclusion from this quote is that the Rule of Thumb is: count the number of unique robot-zone pairs. That's the number of assists.
This seems to match exactly with the manual's "ASSISTS are earned when a unique ALLIANCE ROBOT POSSESSES the ALLIANCE’S BALL in a unique ZONE (i.e. red, white, or blue ZONE) during a CYCLE." My conclusion from this quote is that the Rule of Thumb is: count the number of unique robot-zone pairs. That's the number of assists.
TheDrillKeeper
04-01-2014, 13:51
This seems to match exactly with the manual's "ASSISTS are earned when a unique ALLIANCE ROBOT POSSESSES the ALLIANCE’S BALL in a unique ZONE (i.e. red, white, or blue ZONE) during a CYCLE." My conclusion from this quote is that the Rule of Thumb is: count the number of unique robot-zone pairs. That's the number of assists.
Thank you! This really helps clarify the rule system. The main thing I was confused about was how a robot could get an assist point when other robots also had a possession in that zone.
MasterEric
04-01-2014, 14:14
One thing you should make note of in your post:
As mentioned in the post Autonomous Assist (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123985), since the balls that the bots were given during auto were never on the pedestal, they never completed a full cycle. Thus:
a) You cannot score assist points with autonomous balls.
b) You should try to score those non-assistible autonomous balls during autonomous so you can spend as much time during teleop as possible getting assists.
TheDrillKeeper
04-01-2014, 14:25
One thing you should make note of in your post:
As mentioned in the post Autonomous Assist (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123985), since the balls that the bots were given during auto were never on the pedestal, they never completed a full cycle. Thus:
a) You cannot score assist points with autonomous balls.
b) You should try to score those non-assistible autonomous balls during autonomous so you can spend as much time during teleop as possible getting assists.
Done! Thank you very much.
I'm just commenting to come back
Bob Steele
04-01-2014, 18:25
The game should have been called Aerial "Possession"
They are using the term assist in a new way and not like it is used in sports
It is best to think of possession rather than assist.
For a team to get one assist one team has to have possession of the ball in one of the zones...
For two assists, 2 teams need to have had possession in two separate zones
For three assists 3 teams need to have had possessions in three separate zones.
It is pretty simple if you look at it this way...
One team can only get credit for a single possession and you have to have separate teams possess the ball in separate zones..
The assisting that will be done will be by robots that help other alliance robots to possess the ball in a zone that does not have an alliance robot possessing the ball already.
I think it will be played like this:
ball starts in end zone... hopefully a robot possesses it there...
it moves forward either by being carried or not... the ball is passed to another robot in either of the other two zones... and now two robots have had possession in two zones... now the only thing left to do is to recognize which robot has not possessed the ball and what zone needs that possession for the bonus... then the ball is scored...bam and you get 31 or 40 points..
I believe the alliance will rely on the monitor to see when the referees have indicated possession and then go back and fill in to get the bonuses...if necessary...the indication of possession should be real time but you must not rely on your OWN idea of what possession is but rather when the referee has seen it and recorded it.
If all three teams possess in all three zones you will get the big bonus... if a single separate team possesses in each of the zones you get the big bonus...
I think the monitor will have to be watched closely to determine when to go in for a score.
It is really nice that the GDC thought to put this monitor in a place where the alliance can really use it...
Ive come to the same conclusion, and agree that assist would be better explained as possession. I believe the confusion with my team was with the video explanation (I wasnt watching, rather looking at the rules i had just decrypted). I hope this can be fully explained in the Q and A.
cbudrecki
05-01-2014, 10:39
my big assist question:
Robot 1 in Red passes to Robot 2 in white. Robot 2, still in white, then passes back to Robot 1, now in blue. Robot 1 has no possession while in white. Would this count for the 3 assist rule? :confused:
cbudrecki
05-01-2014, 10:43
as far as the confusion with the term 'assist', I just think that instead of saying 1,2,3 assists, it should be labeled as 0,1,2 assists, as one bot going for the goal does not involve any 'assistance.' Handing off to a 2nd bot is then 1 'assist,' and a 3rd bot is then a 2nd 'assist.' ... yeah, confusing term to use...
Ok...a question from my students yesterday still "sticks in my craw"....
"If we're playing for max points in combination and assists, how are individual teams ranked for finals at the regional?" My question is how many refs will be needed to work three different teams, three areas, marking assists, calculating points in the hot zones as they come up hot, etc.? I'm just an AP teacher but I see a lot of Swiss Cheese holes and massaging of the rules. But...that's just one prole's opinion.
Qbot2640
05-01-2014, 10:51
my big assist question:
Robot 1 in Red passes to Robot 2 in white. Robot 2, still in white, then passes back to Robot 1, now in blue. Robot 1 has no possession while in white. Would this count for the 3 assist rule? :confused:
Please correct me if I am wrong as this is the core of my confusion:
This would not constitute the 3 assist, because robot 1 initiated the first assist and is thus no longer eligible for additional assist participation (no longer "unique robot/zone pair")
RufflesRidge
05-01-2014, 10:56
I believe the alliance will rely on the monitor to see when the referees have indicated possession and then go back and fill in to get the bonuses...if necessary...the indication of possession should be real time but you must not rely on your OWN idea of what possession is but rather when the referee has seen it and recorded it.
The possession information is also shown using the light strings right in front of that robots driver's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc-a7-sxs4Q. But I agree that it will be important to make sure to not give the ball up until the light's you expect turn on.
cbudrecki
05-01-2014, 11:05
my big assist question:
Robot 1 in Red passes to Robot 2 in white. Robot 2, still in white, then passes back to Robot 1, now in blue. Robot 1 has no possession while in white. Would this count for the 3 assist rule? :confused:
Well, to answer myself... after watching the Assist Analysis video over, and over again... this would NOT be a 3 assist, only 2. "Assists will never be granted for possessions that share either a row, or a column." Since the 2 Robot 1 possessions share a column, this would not count as an assist.
My question is how many refs will be needed to work three different teams, three areas, marking assists,
As far as tracking assists goes, the answer is three (or even two, since there are only two balls in play at any one time which matter for assists). One ref watches each zone and taps a screen to note when a robot takes possession of a ball in that zone. The computer keeps track of the accounting.
If one ref is assigned to each ball, they have to not only note when a robot gains possession, but which color zone this happens in.
I expect there will actually be two refs that track assists on the ref touchscreens, and the user interface will look much like the 3x3 matrix in figure 3-4, except with team numbers across the top instead of 1,2 and 3. They just need to tap one of nine squares whenever a new robot gains possession of the ball. Not really that hard, when there are so few other fouls for refs to look out for.
TheOtherGuy
05-01-2014, 11:16
The simplest way to explain the assist rule is to literally use their definition:
ASSIST: an event worth bonus points that occurs when a unique ALLIANCE ROBOT POSSESSES the ALLIANCE’S BALL in a unique ZONE (i.e. red, white, or blue ZONE) during a CYCLE.
In order to have one assist, you need one robot to posses the ball in one unique zone. To have two assists, you need two unique robots possessing the ball in two unique zones. For three assists, three unique robots possessing the ball in three unique zones.
Bob Steele
06-01-2014, 16:30
my big assist question:
Robot 1 in Red passes to Robot 2 in white. Robot 2, still in white, then passes back to Robot 1, now in blue. Robot 1 has no possession while in white. Would this count for the 3 assist rule? :confused:
No because robot 3 never possessed the ball in a unique zone.
simple as that.
You cannot get a triple assist without ALL of the robots possessing in unique zones.
engunneer
06-01-2014, 18:42
I saw elsewhere another way to think of the word assist that makes easy sense. You are assistingthe ball to be scored. Betw een one and three robots can assist the ball in it's goal of being scored. One assist is needed in each zone.
It is also important to remember that you need to be completely is a zone to get credit for the possession. It is possible for all three robots to posses the ball on zone borders and still only get no assist bonus.
Ok...a question from my students yesterday still "sticks in my craw"....
"If we're playing for max points in combination and assists, how are individual teams ranked for finals at the regional?" My question is how many refs will be needed to work three different teams, three areas, marking assists, calculating points in the hot zones as they come up hot, etc.? I'm just an AP teacher but I see a lot of Swiss Cheese holes and massaging of the rules. But...that's just one prole's opinion.Assists are tracked per alliance, not per team. You get all assist points scored by your alliance in each game.
bobbyball
09-01-2014, 18:13
It is my understanding that in order to get the 30 assist points, the unique zone pairs has to be a diagonal across the field. Please tell me if I'm wrong no one is perfect, and every one makes mistakes. I want this rule clarified.
GaryVoshol
09-01-2014, 19:11
It is my understanding that in order to get the 30 assist points, the unique zone pairs has to be a diagonal across the field. Please tell me if I'm wrong no one is perfect, and every one makes mistakes. I want this rule clarified.
I have seen no such requirement.
Perhaps people are confused by the discussion of "rows" and "columns" for assists. These are on the display that's above the driver station. The rows are the color zones, the columns are the individual robots. Someone (I presume referees) will mark that "Robot 1 has possession in the White Zone". This will transfer to the display above the drivers, and then FMS will compile all the inputs to determine how many assists (unique zone/robot combinations) happened.
Please correct me if I am wrong as this is the core of my confusion:
This would not constitute the 3 assist, because robot 1 initiated the first assist and is thus no longer eligible for additional assist participation (no longer "unique robot/zone pair")
Robot 1 would still be "eligible" (1 could then pass to 3 in blue and you have 3 assists). You are still thinking like sports assist where the actual pass matters.
you can score the 3 assists without any alliance members intentionally "passing" at all:
the human player retrieves the ball from the pedestal. they are excitedly running around to the guardrail and trip and the ball rolls into the blue zone. robot 1 drives over and picks up the ball in the blue zone. a defender crashes into robot 1 and the ball comes loose and rolls to the white zone where robot 2 possesses the ball. The defender crashes into robot 2 and the ball comes loose again and rolls to the red zone where robot 3 possesses the ball by herding into the low goal. 31 points. no passes.
Read Bob Steele's post again; POSSESSION IS THE KEY WORD! the definition of assist never says anything about passing.
I have to admit that when watching the kickoff video and then reading the rules I was still confused. After talking it through with a few people the idea of thinking only of possession and not passing made things more clear.
I don't know how carefully this will be watched by the referees, but possession in a zone is technically limited to the definition of being in a zone. A robot straddling the line between zones is not *in* either zone. Unless it travels so that it no longer touches one zone or the other, possession has not happened for that robot.
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