Balls left over from Autonomous Mode

[thegem811]

If one or more of the three balls used in autonomous mode are still in the field of play when the drivers can start driving, can those balls be used to gain points by tossing them over the truss? And can they be used for assists, or does that not count, since they are not technically from a cycle?

[GaryVoshol]

You're right, ASSISTS only count during CYCLES.

3.1.2 says when the first CYCLE starts:
Although an ALLIANCE may start a MATCH with up to three (3) BALLS, the PEDESTAL will only be illuminated when the last BALL that started the MATCH is SCORED, effectively reducing the number of BALLS in play per ALLIANCE to one (1).

[Chi Meson]

You're right, ASSISTS only count during CYCLES.

3.1.2 says when the first CYCLE starts:

And so currently I'm reading that Truss/Catch points CAN be earned with balls left over from autonomous, but I expect a rule change/clarification on this points.

The problem is that truss/catch points are limited to 1 each (20 points total) per cycle. But the balls in play at the end of Autonomous are not part of a cycle, so by a lteral reading of rules, you could re-lauch/catch with a post-autonomous ball any number of times.

I expect a rule modifaction that either limits a post-auto ball to 1 set of truss points, or to set truss points as being part of a cycle (as assist points currently are). This clarification would significantly impact an alliance strategy.

[Timeroot]

If you read it literally, then there are no TRUSS or CATCH points scored, because they're not part of a cycle at all. Those points only exist during a cycle.

[Chi Meson]

That's been the argument, but where is the rule that says truss/catch points are "only during a cycle"? I agree that this is probably the intent, but after reading every line twice, I can't find that rule. Please do tell me where it is.

[Brandon_L]

Game 3.1.4

Points are awarded once per CYCLE for BALLS SCORED by ROBOTS in the GOALS, BALLS SCORED by ROBOTS over the TRUSS, and for each ROBOT CATCH. Additional points are credited to an ALLIANCE upon each GOAL based on the number of ASSISTS earned by the ALLIANCE for that CYCLE.

A CYCLE is the series of events that recur regularly, and each CYCLE begins with an ALLIANCE member retrieving their BALL from their lit PEDESTAL and ends when the BALL is SCORED in a GOAL. Major events in a CYCLE are depicted in Figure 3-1.

Points are awarded once per cycle, and according to the definition of a cycle the ~3 auton balls left in play are not a part of a cycle.

Although, by this definition, points are not awarded at all for clearing out the ~3 auton balls after auton has ended because balls scored by robots in goals are counted once per cycle, and these balls are not part of a cycle.

Seems like this could be intentional, as it makes sense. Or maybe I'm misreading something.

[theCADguy]

Probably not. If this were actually legal, then there would be no logical reason to even have an autonomous, as more points could be scored by keeping the balls until teleop and gaining assist points instantly. Even if this were legal, it defeats the point (pun intended) of one the most important aspects of the game. Anyway, I predict that FIRST will clarify this some time soon.

[GaryVoshol]

Although, by this definition, points are not awarded at all for clearing out the ~3 auton balls after auton has ended because balls scored by robots in goals are counted once per cycle, and these balls are not part of a cycle.
Not only that, if they went through the goal without being SCORED, they'd be returned to the HP to reenter into the field. (3.1.2 second paragraph) Lather, rinse, repeat.

[Brandon_L]

Not only that, if they went through the goal without being SCORED, they'd be returned to the HP to reenter into the field. (3.1.2 second paragraph) Lather, rinse, repeat.

We've got to be missing something somewhere.

[JohnSchneider]

So we have to score pieces for no points?

I don't understand why the field crew cant just pause the match to take all of the balls remaining out of play... a lot less headache...

[Connerd]

Me ( and my team) think that the three (3) maximum allowed balls at the start of the match in auto would stay on the robots that they started in, with balls being recycled into play only after the last ball from auto mode was put through a goal. Whether this means that they will be scored, or if assists are possible, remains to be seen. A possible Q/A maybe?

[cbudrecki]

This includes BALLS that go in GOALS but don’t meet the criteria to be considered SCORED.

This makes me think that balls left over from autonomous are not part of a cycle, and therefore "don't meet the criteria to be considered SCORED." However all autonomous balls must pass through a GOAL before any balls may re-enter the field.

[Ido_Wolf]

This makes me think that balls left over from autonomous are not part of a cycle, and therefore "don't meet the criteria to be considered SCORED." However all autonomous balls must pass through a GOAL before any balls may re-enter the field.

Exactly, so what happens if a robot holding a ball loses communication or something during the game? The alliance would be doomed because of it, unable to score any points.

[cbudrecki]

Exactly, so what happens if a robot holding a ball loses communication or something during the game? The alliance would be doomed because of it, unable to score any points.

From what I can tell, with the rules as currently written, Yes. The exception would be if an alliance robot could possibly dislodge the POSSESSED ball.;)

[Tuba4]

Under 3.1.2 MATCH Logistics it says: "Although an ALLIANCE may start a MATCH with up to three (3) BALLS, the PEDESTAL will only be illuminated when the last BALL that started the MATCH is SCORED, effectively reducing the number of BALLS in play per ALLIANCE to one (1)." Since the Pedestal only lights when the last ball is scored, I must believe that autonomous balls can only and must be be score into goals.

[Shu]

Under 3.1.2 MATCH Logistics it says: "Although an ALLIANCE may start a MATCH with up to three (3) BALLS, the PEDESTAL will only be illuminated when the last BALL that started the MATCH is SCORED, effectively reducing the number of BALLS in play per ALLIANCE to one (1)." Since the Pedestal only lights when the last ball is scored, I must believe that autonomous balls can only and must be be score into goals.

Based on that, I believe the left over balls will be counted as scored in either the low or high goal but not given any bonus points.

[cbudrecki]

Under 3.1.2 MATCH Logistics it says: "Although an ALLIANCE may start a MATCH with up to three (3) BALLS, the PEDESTAL will only be illuminated when the last BALL that started the MATCH is SCORED, effectively reducing the number of BALLS in play per ALLIANCE to one (1)." Since the Pedestal only lights when the last ball is scored, I must believe that autonomous balls can only and must be be score into goals.

This is where I think an update will clarify things. It makes sense that since the autonomous balls are not part of a CYCLE, they cannot be SCORED during tele-op. I tend to think that this statement should read:
"Although an ALLIANCE may start a MATCH with up to three (3) BALLS, the PEDESTAL will only be illuminated when the last BALL that started the MATCH passes through a GOAL, effectively reducing the number of BALLS in play per ALLIANCE to one (1).

[Helpless Mentor]

Per G11, passing a ball to a human player is OK, but if a cycle has to start with a lighted pillar even outbounding and inbounding won't start a new cycle.

Perhaps the point is that the team just has to clear away all the unused balls before they can start scoring.

[alectronic]

Perhaps the point is that the team just has to clear away all the unused balls before they can start scoring.

That is correct. Per the manual, a CYCLE cannot start until a BALL comes off the PEDESTAL

A CYCLE is the series of events that recur regularly, and each CYCLE begins with an ALLIANCE member retrieving their BALL from their lit PEDESTAL and ends when the BALL is SCORED in a GOAL

[Jared Russell]

This is where I think an update will clarify things. It makes sense that since the autonomous balls are not part of a CYCLE, they cannot be SCORED during tele-op. I tend to think that this statement should read:
"Although an ALLIANCE may start a MATCH with up to three (3) BALLS, the PEDESTAL will only be illuminated when the last BALL that started the MATCH passes through a GOAL, effectively reducing the number of BALLS in play per ALLIANCE to one (1).

I hope this is not the case, as it strongly disincentivizes trying in auto mode.

Shoot and miss? Well now you need to corral a bouncing/rolling ball and score it - for no points - before your alliance can score a single teleop point.

[Brandon_L]

This makes me think that balls left over from autonomous are not part of a cycle, and therefore "don't meet the criteria to be considered SCORED." However all autonomous balls must pass through a GOAL before any balls may re-enter the field.

I believe the actual terminology they used in the manual was SCORED not passed through a GOAL.

3.1.2 MATCH Logistics
Although an ALLIANCE may start a MATCH with up to three (3) BALLS, the PEDESTAL will only be illuminated when the last BALL that started the MATCH is SCORED, effectively reducing the number of BALLS in play per ALLIANCE to one (1).

By the above definitions that assume we do not receive points for the balls put into the goals before the cycles start, the remaining balls are not SCORED. (SCORED defined later in the manual as giving an alliance points).

I'm 99% positive it was just an overlook when writing the manual, its pretty clear they intended us to clean out all the balls before new ones are introduced. Its just a question of if we get points for it. The entire path of the ball after it scores is vague, though.

EDIT:
this rule I think is worth quoting here.
BALLS that are ejected from gameplay during a MATCH will be delivered to the closest HUMAN PLAYER of that BALL’S ALLIANCE by event staff at the next safe opportunity. This includes BALLS that go in GOALS but don’t meet the criteria to be considered SCORED.

[PVCpirate]

I think the left over autonomous BALLS will count for 1 or 10 points based on which GOAL they are SCORED in, because as Jared said, the risk of autonomous just becomes too high if they don't count for points.

[DavisC]

Yea my interpretation is that since a cycle only begins with the removing of the ball from a pedestal, the cycle never began therefore Truss points can't be earned yet.

This also makes weak teams that can't score in Autonomous have to realize that they should NOT start with balls, otherwise it could mean less points (unless your alliance is absolutely horrible with assists).

I WISH they did White balls for Autonomous, so they may remain in play for regular match points (without assists/truss) while the blue/red balls enter play for assist scores.