Pass to Human Player

[ninjosh97]

Hey guys,
I don't quite understand something...
Rule G11:
3.2.3.3 G11
BALLS may not be intentionally or repeatedly ejected from gameplay.
Violation: FOUL per instance.
Passing a BALL to a HUMAN PLAYER is within gameplay and not considered a violation of G11.

Why would you want to pass a ball to the Human Player?

Thanks.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Maybe they load it into a different alliance robot that doesn't have a floor pickup but can still shoot/dump into a goal? Then you could still get the ASSIST for that robot and get extra points.

[ninjosh97]

Hmm, didn't think about that.
The robot would have to chuck the ball out of the field though... the Human player couldn't reach in and grab it... could they?

Pretty sure there is a rule against that.

[Kevin Sevcik]

G40
TEAMS may not extend any body part into the FIELD during the MATCH.
Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL.

If not actively engaged with receiving or releasing a BALL, we strongly recommend that TEAMS stay fully behind the HUMAN PLAYER BARRIER during the MATCH.

G41
TEAMS may not contact any ROBOT or any BALL in contact with a ROBOT at any time during the MATCH.
Violation: TECHNICAL FOULRobot would definitely have to lightly launch the ball out of the field.

[engunneer]

I also found this interesting:

G38 HUMAN PLAYERS may not pass the BALL to a HUMAN PLAYER in another HUMAN PLAYER AREA (passing the
BALL within an ALLIANCE STATION or HUMAN PLAYER AREA is permitted).
Violation: FOUL
Does this imply there can be two humans in the same station?

Also, for human loading, be sure to look at G41 TEAMS may not contact any ROBOT or any BALL in contact with a ROBOT at any time during the MATCH.
Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL
So be sure the loading action is more of a toss, lob, or roll, so you aren't touching the ball at the same time the robot touches it.

EDIT: didn't see you had G41 already

[ninjosh97]

Got it. Makes sense. :)
Thanks guys! :D

[Alesha_webb]

My team is in brainstorming right now and we took a loooong time going over the rules!

[ninjosh97]

Yeah, our team usually spends the whole kickoff just reading the rules & thinking of basic strategies.
The rules are definitely more complicated than the last two years... :eek:

[bentjeans]

As I read it, you MAY have human players in any of the 3 boxes on the fields (one on each side, one at endwall), but I didn't see anything saying you MUST have a human in each position. So you might chose to retain two humans at the endwall, one could remove the ball from the pedestal and head right, a defending bot moves right (it's left) to try to block the receiver from getting near the wall, so human passes the ball to the other human within the same zone, and they inbound the ball on the left.

But no, you can't have your bot pass the ball to your human and then back on to the field. That would be ejecting the ball from the field. They have not defined very well the purpose of the "human player barrier", but given the name, and picturing balls flying over the truss for truss and catch points, and the resulting bouncing ball from missing catches or poorly tossed throws, I take it the humans along the side can redirect an errant ball back on to the field, so long as they do not cross the plane of the field wall, contact ball while robot is in contact with it, move yourself completely out of your box etc. to do it.

G39 During the MATCH, TEAMS must remain *in contact* with the area of the FIELD (ALLIANCE STATION or HUMAN PLAYER AREA) *in which they started* the MATCH. Exceptions will be granted for inadvertent, momentary, and inconsequential infractions and in cases concerning safety.

So your human can help get the ball back on to the field, but only to the extent that they can get the ball and return it to the field while keeping at least one foot inside the box. If the ball goes beyond the human's reach, it will be up to the field staff to handle the ejected ball.

3.1.2 MATCH Logistics
...
BALLS that are ejected from gameplay during a MATCH will be delivered to the closest HUMAN PLAYER of that BALL’S ALLIANCE by event staff at the next safe opportunity. This includes BALLS that go in GOALS but don’t meet the criteria to be considered SCORED.

So, if you do NOT place a human player in a field sideline box, and the field staff is looking for the closest human player to return the ball to... you get the opportunity to start again from the endwall.

[MikeE]

But no, you can't have your bot pass the ball to your human and then back on to the field. That would be ejecting the ball from the field.

The blue box in rule G11 contradicts your claim that passing to a human player is ejecting the ball from the field.
Passing a BALL to a HUMAN PLAYER is within gameplay and not considered a violation of G11.

The Human Player Barrier provides separation between the robots and humans - think of it as a shelf in front of the human players. Note that robots may not extend any part beyond 20" from the frame and the barrier is 20" deep.

[ninjosh97]

I got the impression that the Human Player Barrier was just a safety precaution.

[PAR_WIG1350]

The Human Player Barrier provides separation between the robots and humans - think of it as a shelf in front of the human players. Note that robots may not extend any part beyond 20" from the frame and the barrier is 20" deep.

Just be aware of this rule:
G21 ROBOTS may not extend outside the FIELD.
FIELD: a 24 ft. 8 in. x 54 ft. carpeted area, bounded by and including the GUARDRAILS, ALLIANCE WALLS, and rear faces of the LOW GOALS.

[Racer26]

I'm failing to understand how passing to a human player is an expected part of gameplay. Can I do that for ASSIST points, since my humans are in a particular zone? I don't think so, but I'm not seeing a reason I would WANT to pass to my human players. Seems like it would be wasting time I could be spending scoring or defending.

[Zuelu562]

I'm failing to understand how passing to a human player is an expected part of gameplay. Can I do that for ASSIST points, since my humans are in a particular zone? I don't think so, but I'm not seeing a reason I would WANT to pass to my human players. Seems like it would be wasting time I could be spending scoring or defending.

The reasoning may involve each individual robot's design. Lets say you build a robot that can pickup off the floor and shoot decently. Another team has a decent shooter, but can't pick up off the floor. To get it up the field, you might pass it to your human player so they can lightly toss it into the other robot's shooter.

[alectronic]

Can I do that for ASSIST points, since my humans are in a particular zone? I don't think so, but I'm not seeing a reason I would WANT to pass to my human players. Seems like it would be wasting time I could be spending scoring or defending.

You couldn't get ASSIST points because that would require a unique robot-zone pair, so a HUMAN PLAYER would not satisfy that requirement. Presumably, you could use a pass to a HUMAN PLAYER for something like getting around a defending robot from the opposite alliance, since it is easier for a human over a robot, in many cases, to maneuver the ball.

[dubiousSwain]

You couldn't get ASSIST points because that would require a unique robot-zone pair, so a HUMAN PLAYER would not satisfy that requirement. Presumably, you could use a pass to a HUMAN PLAYER for something like getting around a defending robot from the opposite alliance, since it is easier for a human over a robot, in many cases, to maneuver the ball.

Assists are not based on passes, but possession. if a human player loads another bot, and that bot moves to another zone, the "assist" counts

[alectronic]

Assists are not based on passes, but possession. if a human player loads another bot, and that bot moves to another zone, the "assist" counts

Right, I believe the original question though was if the HUMAN PLAYER received ASSIST points for being in a particular zone, which would be a no. But if they pass to a ROBOT, the ASSIST points are because of the ROBOT not the HUMAN PLAYER.

[jimwick]

It seems to us that a human play may be a good way to facilitate transfer between two bots. Maybe a "sending bot" can't send very accurately. Maybe a "receiving bot" isn't a very good fielder. A human player could get a sort of wild throw from the sender and carefully feed it toward the receiver.
Seems like a good strategy to us.

We see this as the real reason to have human players.

[Kevin Selavko]

Can the human player score the ball?
The only rule I see possibly against it is

G36 A BALL inbounded after retrieval from the PEDESTAL must first contact a ROBOT or the carpet on its DRIVERS’ end of the FIELD before crossing beyond the TRUSS.
Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL

But that only is right after you take it off the pedestal, so you have to have a robot toss it to you first.

[alectronic]

Can the human player score the ball?
The only rule I see possibly against it is

But that only is right after you take it off the pedestal, so you have to have a robot toss it to you first.

The rules state that the points are awarded for robot actions, which indicates a human could not score.

Points are awarded once per CYCLE for BALLS SCORED by ROBOTS in the GOALS, BALLS SCORED by ROBOTS over the TRUSS, and for each ROBOT CATCH. Additional points are credited to an ALLIANCE upon each GOAL based on the number of ASSISTS earned by the ALLIANCE for that CYCLE. (emphasis mine)

[RallyJeff]

The rules state that the points are awarded for robot actions, which indicates a human could not score.

(emphasis mine)

3.14.A makes this especially clear:

A BALL is considered SCORED in an ALLIANCE’S GOAL if

A. a ROBOT causes one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S BALLS to cross completely through the opening(s) of one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S GOALS without intervening human contact,

[brycen66]

One good reason to pass to a human player is to gain the truss bonus, that is if you shoot over the truss.

[chmorroni]

One good reason to pass to a human player is to gain the truss bonus, that is if you shoot over the truss.

Just looking at the field diagrams, that would be an interesting angle across the field. It would also involve moving backwards as far as field progress goes.

Personally, I agree that it may just be a way to make more teams' designs compatible with each other by having the human player as a go-between for the ball between 2 robots, so there can be more assists involved.

[Qcom]

Yeah, our team usually spends the whole kickoff just reading the rules & thinking of basic strategies.
The rules are definitely more complicated than the last two years... :eek:

Honestly, as team rule guru I have found very little that is "specialized" to this year. The field has less interactive elements, and a very small amount of ways to score points. Carrying out team maneuvers such as assists, however, will probably be difficult to do in practice.

[Marc S.]

If a human player throws the ball to a robot, would that count as a catch (assuming the ball does not touch the ground)?

Does 3.1.4 imply that up to 3 catches per cycle can count (1 per robot) or that every catch (regardless of robot or number) counts?

3.1.4
Points are awarded once per CYCLE for BALLS SCORED by ROBOTS in the GOALS, BALLS SCORED by ROBOTS over the TRUSS, and for each ROBOT CATCH. Additional points are credited to an ALLIANCE upon each GOAL based on the number of ASSISTS earned by the ALLIANCE for that CYCLE.

We're planning on asking Q&A about this but I wanted to see what others take on these were.

[Dragonking]

If a human player throws the ball to a robot, would that count as a catch (assuming the ball does not touch the ground)?



No. A catch is when the ball possesses the ball after a truss shot, before the ball contacts the ground or a HP.

A CATCH occurs when a BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting the carpet or HUMAN PLAYER.


An ALLIANCE receives CATCH points only if the CATCH is directly preceded by a TRUSS SCORE. This means that an ALLIANCE can only receive CATCH points once per CYCLE and will not receive CATCH points if the TRUSS SCORE criteria are not met.