Is throwing worth it ?

[mitchklong]

Im trying to decide if adding a throw ability really buys that much.

Throwing can get you
Truss points (10)
Possibly catch points (10)
high goal points (9 more)

But throwing also:
causes the ball to bounce. That makes it more difficult to control than rolling.
risks ejecting the ball from the field.
can easily miss high goal and have to reshoot
relatively challenging technically


So..to throw or not to throw. That is my question.

[who716]

How about having a thrower that is also your shooter

[Zuelu562]

Throwing in a cycle can generate 20 points more than what just roll passes do just by the truss and catch bonuses. Add on the additional 9 from scoring high, and you have compelling enough reason for me. Also, a bouncing ball isn't really that hard to manage if you have some imagination. Get it to the wall or have a guide system to control it.

[engunneer]

I consider the truss pass (without catch) to be worth +20, since it comes with an assist (almost certainly). With the catch, it is worth 10 or 20 more than a normal assist.

Accurate throwing is going to be key for catching.

[RRLedford]

It all boils down to what the the level of impact is on increasing the cycle times when completing over truss shots & high goal scoring shots.

This then must be compared to the minimum cycle times that an efficient 31 point basic 3-assist with low goal score can give.

I can easily see the efficiently done 31 point cycles being completed almost twice as fast as an average 50 point cycle with both over truss done (no catch) and high goal scored.

Even assuming 100% success rate on over truss shooting, relinquishing ball possession with significant energy imparted to balls, and then perhaps having to contend with better positioned, more nimble than you defender blocking your effort to retrieve and reload the balls for the high goal shot seems like an especially risky time waster.

Then there is the issue of what percent of what goal shots can actually be successful on 1st try? Even at 90% accuracy this means you only gain ~8 points over the low goal (assuming 100% for them), and so in a five cycle match this would average out at only ~40 extra points, but if the the extra time investment needed, compared to low goal scoring, to reach that level of accuracy on the high goal, is only about 5 seconds per cycle, then the competition might nearly complete one more 31 point cycle and almost nullify the high goal scoring advantage.

So, if you seek to accomplish both the over truss shot and the high goal shot as your ideal strategy for each cycle, I conclude that that combination will ultimately prove more detrimental than advantageous for your final score.
This will be more the case with even an average amount of basic defense against you.

My advice would be to only attempt one or the other. and if high goal accuracy is good, that would be the one to do. The truss shot is just too big of a cycle time waster without having a consistent catch to add 10 more points and eliminate the ball chasing time waste. So, with the difficulty of executing the ball catch, the over truss shot seems like a bad idea.

Our team will only attempt high goal shots in both auto & tele of we can reach the 90+% accuracy level. We are also looking at how also to have an even more certain alternate option for low goal scoring, so we can go either way in matches where there is too much high goal shooting defense happening.

-Dick Ledford

[geomapguy]

Throwing can get you
Truss points (10)
Possibly catch points (10)
high goal points (9 more)



Might want to read the rules. High goal scores are clearly 10 points.

Base point values are as follows:
LOW GOAL 1
HIGH GOAL 10
CATCH 10
TRUSS 10

[EricH]

Might want to read the rules. High goal scores are clearly 10 points.

He said 9 more. The implication is that if you can get the low goals (and if you can't get those, you need a new robot, and quick!), throwing only nets an additional 9 on top of the 1 for the low goal that anybody can get.


In other words, the box-on-wheels can get assist and low-goal points. A throwing robot can add in the truss points, the high-goal points, and possibly the catch points, as well as picking up assists and low goals.

[Racer26]

Might want to read the rules. High goal scores are clearly 10 points.

Yes... And scoring the BALL in the high goal instead of the low goal is a net gain of +9 points.

[Kevin Sevcik]

The high goals are a lot more difficult to defend than the low goals. Low goals could be fairly locked down by two defense bots. So a high, defense, defense alliance could probably take down a low, low, low alliance.

[DonRotolo]

So..to throw or not to throw. That is my question.
First, consider if the winners on Einstein in 4 months will be able to throw or not.

Second, realistically, consider whether your team can build a mechanism to do that or not.

Your answers determine the answer to the OP

[redsox11]

Another thing to take into consideration is that scoring in the low goals isn't as simple as just pushing it in, there are 7 inches between the bottom of the low goal opening and the field.

[Team3266Spencer]

Another thing to take into consideration is that scoring in the low goals isn't as simple as just pushing it in, there are 7 inches between the bottom of the low goal opening and the field.

But the ball has a 12 inch radius, so I imagine it wouldn't be that difficult to push in.

[thinker&planner]

We discussed this as a team and I believe came to the conclusion that even if we had a reliable shooter, we would only use it for autonomous and truss points, unless someone is blocking both of the low goals.

The only advantages:
Autonomous points
If a team can successfully block the low goals for an entire match and
nobody on your team has the capability to shoot high, it comes down to the
autonomous points.

The disadvantages:
Loss of control, time wasted trying to recover the ball
Missed shots, leading to ^^
Yet another system to be designed (although what else would we spend our
time on?)

Overall, we resolved to prototype a shooter/thrower, and if our prototypes were semi-successful, we would keep it as an option.

[Sean Raia]

If you have the resources you should certainly attempt to throw.

If not, try being the best catcher you can be. Are you a lineman, a wide reciever, or the quarterback? That mostly depends on how youre built. And I mean that about the robot as much as I do the team.

I love the positional designs this game requires.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

Something not explicitly stated in the rules, but I feel like it works against the spirit of the game (and expect a Q&A regarding it) is whether a robot can throw a ball over the Truss and catch it themselves.

Effectively kills a "Teamwork" element of this game, but if you get some space, I feel like it could be an easier 20pt bonus than trying to coordinate throwing and catching with 2 different robots.

If it ultimately IS legal, than throwing is definitely worth it. If not, unless you plan to shoot for 10's, I'd say NO.

[mitchklong]

Does anyone know what the rule is if the ball leaves the arena ? I assume that if one of the human players catches or stops it they can throw it back in and nothing is lost but time, but what if the blue ball goes into the red player area ? I assume they dont have to throw it back in. Or what if it leaves the arena and isnt playable ?

In particular I am wondering if all of the assist and truss points still stand.

[Zuelu562]

Section 3.1.2 of the Manual: BALLS that are ejected from gameplay during a MATCH will be delivered to the closest HUMAN PLAYER of that BALL’S ALLIANCE by event staff at the next safe opportunity. This includes BALLS that go in GOALS but don’t meet the criteria to be considered SCORED.

[Whippet]

Something not explicitly stated in the rules, but I feel like it works against the spirit of the game (and expect a Q&A regarding it) is whether a robot can throw a ball over the Truss and catch it themselves.

Effectively kills a "Teamwork" element of this game, but if you get some space, I feel like it could be an easier 20pt bonus than trying to coordinate throwing and catching with 2 different robots.

If it ultimately IS legal, than throwing is definitely worth it. If not, unless you plan to shoot for 10's, I'd say NO.

A CATCH occurs when a BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting the carpet or HUMAN PLAYER.

(Emphasis mine.)

I.e. Not the same robot.

[RRLedford]

Something not explicitly stated in the rules, but I feel like it works against the spirit of the game (and expect a Q&A regarding it) is whether a robot can throw a ball over the Truss and catch it themselves.

Effectively kills a "Teamwork" element of this game, but if you get some space, I feel like it could be an easier 20pt bonus than trying to coordinate throwing and catching with 2 different robots.

If it ultimately IS legal, than throwing is definitely worth it. If not, unless you plan to shoot for 10's, I'd say NO.

That approach is legal, but only gives 10 points, since by definition a "catch" requires that the thrower and catcher be DIFFERENT partners on an alliance.

So only 10 points, but possession maintained, which has its own value.

-Dick Ledford

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

Thanks for the quick answer. I read that rule at least twice and somehow never got that interpretation.

[roush14r]

I'm fairly new with FIRST but I feel like if it is worth for one robot to be throwing per alliance. Beyond that, I think that it become a little excessive and not necessarily worth it.

[Racer26]

But the ball has a 12 inch radius, so I imagine it wouldn't be that difficult to push in.

There is at least one video on YouTube already of a basic box bot being easily able to just shove the ball over that edge with very little in the way of trouble.

[TheMadCADer]

I'm fairly new with FIRST but I feel like if it is worth for one robot to be throwing per alliance. Beyond that, I think that it become a little excessive and not necessarily worth it.

If you want "full" 60 point cycles, you will need to throw over the truss and shoot into the high goal. To be the most time-efficient you can be, each robot should ideally only possess the ball in one zone. This would make an "ideal" match flow as follows:

Robot A receives ball from human player in Red Zone.
Robot A launches ball over truss to catching Robot B in White Zone.
Robot B somehow gets ball to Robot C.
Robot C launches ball through High Goal while in Blue Zone.

However, if you replace the High Goal with a Low Goal in that last step, you only lose out on 9 points per cycle.

[CalTran]

If you want "full" 60 point cycles, you will need to throw over the truss and shoot into the high goal. To be the most time-efficient you can be, each robot should ideally only possess the ball in one zone. This would make an "ideal" match flow as follows:

Robot A receives ball from human player in Red Zone.
Robot A launches ball over truss to catching Robot B in White Zone.
Robot B somehow gets ball to Robot C.
Robot C launches ball through High Goal while in Blue Zone.

However, if you replace the High Goal with a Low Goal in that last step, you only lose out on 9 points per cycle.

If you already have a method of launching over the truss, why would you not shoot for the high goal anyways? Just have Robot A launch, then go down to the other end of the field for a pass from C to launch into the goal?

[TheMadCADer]

If you already have a method of launching over the truss, why would you not shoot for the high goal anyways? Just have Robot A launch, then go down to the other end of the field for a pass from C to launch into the goal?

It simply takes too long.

Robot C then needs to possess the ball and deliver it back to Robot A. Robot A also has to wait around for the B --> C exchange and can't play defense in the Red Zone, which means they also aren't there to pick up the new ball as soon as it comes into play.

Instead, you could keep Robot A in the Red Zone playing defense while Robot C brings the ball to the Low Goal (instead of to Robot A). Robot A plays defense instead of driving back and forth, picking up the ball, and lining up for a shot.

The only time I'd say the high goal is better is if there is heavy defense on both Low Goals.

[marissa1215]

I think that even though it may be harder the ball into the higher goal, it still is worth it considering the amount of points you can get, with a ratio of 1:10, when there is a good amount of time on the clock it is better to just risk the higher shot and make more points, but rolling the ball into the lower goal is ideal for when the score are neck and neck and you only need 2 or 3 points to win.

[Koko Ed]

The best teams never ask "Is it worth doing?"
They ask "What's worth the most points and how can we do it?"
That's why they are always playing deep into Saturday @ Champs all the time.

[loyal]

Throwing the ball is way faster. Forget the 3 assist. Take the 2 assist, over the truss, catch if you can, if not no worries. Gain control and sink the high goal. That when done correctly will be the quickest and most efficient scoring. Imo

[Alan2338]

If you want "full" 60 point cycles, you will need to throw over the truss and shoot into the high goal. To be the most time-efficient you can be, each robot should ideally only possess the ball in one zone. This would make an "ideal" match flow as follows:

Robot A receives ball from human player in Red Zone.
Robot A launches ball over truss to catching Robot B in White Zone.
Robot B somehow gets ball to Robot C.
Robot C launches ball through High Goal while in Blue Zone.

However, if you replace the High Goal with a Low Goal in that last step, you only lose out on 9 points per cycle.

The way i see it, the fastest and highest scoring way is to do this:

Robot A receives ball from human player in Red Zone.
Robot A passes ball to waiting Robot B in White Zone (before the truss).
Robot B throws/lobs the ball over the truss
Robot C reacquires thrown ball
Robot C shoots/throws ball into high goal.

I just think maybe a thrower should be in the white, and not the red. Just my thoughts...
P.S. I might think this just because I don't believe catching is going to be a big deal...

[Celia]

The best teams never ask "Is it worth doing?"
They ask "What's worth the most points and how can we do it?"
That's why they are always playing deep into Saturday @ Champs all the time.
This ^^^

When we start brainstorming, we make a prioritized list of what we want our robot to do. High goal/truss shooting is worth ten points. Having a shooter means getting nine - or nineteen - more points per cycle rather than going for the low goal with no truss pass. Even if only one or two assists are managed, the shooting robot comes out on top. A well-designed robot should be able to efficiently harvest and shoot the game piece in nearly the same amount of time it takes another to herd the ball into the low goal. In autonomous, the point values speak for themselves.

Another positive to throwing: Let's say your alliance partners are unable to assist (broken down, goalie, etc.). Theoretically, couldn't one throwing robot cycle the field on its own, throwing over the truss and score in the high goal by itself? Earning twenty points per cycle with one robot doesn't seem half bad.

[MrForbes]

I think the important question here is, when will the High Rollers break a wall clock this year?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raZdkGxq5Ig

[TheMadCADer]

P.S. I might think this just because I don't believe catching is going to be a big deal...

Catch points aren't going to change many matches by themselves. However, it actually saves you time in the long run. Tossing the ball over the truss will send it bouncing the rest of the way across the field for the next robot to chase down if you don't catch it. If you do catch it then you can go right ahead and spit it out for that final assist or shoot quickly if you're the last robot in the line.

I see catching as a way to make what is essentially a really, really good pickup that also scores you bonus points.

[Donut]

Catch points aren't going to change many matches by themselves. However, it actually saves you time in the long run. Tossing the ball over the truss will send it bouncing the rest of the way across the field for the next robot to chase down if you don't catch it. If you do catch it then you can go right ahead and spit it out for that final assist or shoot quickly if you're the last robot in the line.

I see catching as a way to make what is essentially a really, really good pickup that also scores you bonus points.

I have the same thoughts. I don't think catches will be common, but if a pair of robots can successfully pull off a truss throw/catch move, it gets a +30 point bonus in a single move (truss points, catch points, and at least a 2 assist) and is very hard to defend against. If the ball is high in the air traveling between the two robots there is no chance to block the ball during travel, and if you can't knock either robot out of position during the throw there's no way to defend it.

[G-Hence]

Well time is an issue, but how much time is another thing. The rules don't really specify possession in time but rather control so theoretically, you could control the ball for lets say 2 seconds and you have the ball stopped and ready to assist given that you intake stops the ball quickly.

[RRLedford]

Reality check time. In another thread on defense it has been pointed out how easily a defensive bot can position adjacent to the low goal from either open side, and by placing a simple appendage into the low goal, they can prevent the ball from being scored there, from the front, the side, or the top openings.

Unless you can push them away from the low goal (not easy with them tucked in a corner) & score while holding them away, then you have only two options:

1) Win the race with them to the other low goal (assuming no other 2nd bot defender there already)
2) Score in the the high goal.

So, at least until there is rule clarification on whether this way of defending the low goal will be considered legal, it becomes a priority for every match alliance to have at least one member that is a fairly accurate high goal scorer.

-Dick Ledford

[MrForbes]

Unless you can push them away from the low goal (not easy with them tucked in a corner) & score while holding them away, then you have only two options:

1) Win the race with them to the other low goal (assuming no other 2nd bot defender there already)
2) Score in the the high goal.

3) lob the ball into the top of the low goal, over the defending robot

[Whippet]

3) lob the ball into the top of the low goal, over the defending robot

Unless that robot is sitting INSIDE the goal, as has been questioned in other threads.

[BrendanB]

Its only worth doing if you can go out and do it consistently.

This game is going to be all about execution in a match. Pretty much every team will design and build a robot that can pickup a ball and throw it into a goal. Things like catching the ball or throwing in the truss might not be carried throughout every robot but are easy to implement. The biggest game changer will be the teams who allow time for drive practice so they can go out and actually perform in a match.

[Jay O'Donnell]

Its only worth doing if you can go out and do it consistently.

This game is going to be all about execution in a match. Pretty much every team will design and build a robot that can pickup a ball and throw it into a goal. Things like catching the ball or throwing in the truss might not be carried throughout every robot but are easy to implement. The biggest game changer will be the teams who allow time for drive practice so they can go out and actually perform in a match.

Completely agree with this. I don't think design/manufacturing of robots this year is all too difficult as we've seen a game similar to this and there is no endgame. The skill of your drivers and the effectiveness of your strategies match to match will be the deciding factor of your success. Throwing will be a common trait among robots (IMO) and therefore your alliance should pick the best thrower to be the one scoring even if all of you can do it.

[JB987]

I think the important question here is, when will the High Rollers break a wall clock this year?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raZdkGxq5Ig

What makes you think we haven't already, Jim? We almost did worse...launched ball so hard it knocked off control boards from shelf at driver station wall in our shop. Turns out the joysticks are pretty durable.;)

[ToddF]

The biggest game changer will be the teams who allow time for drive practice so they can go out and actually perform in a match.

Amen.

[MrForbes]

What makes you think we haven't already, Jim? We almost did worse...launched ball so hard it knocked off control boards from shelf at driver station wall in our shop. Turns out the joysticks are pretty durable.;)

Video or it didn't happen, Joe! you know the rules ;)

[DonRotolo]

Having a shooter means getting nine - or nineteen - more points per cycle rather than going for the low goal with no truss pass.Beware the No Truss-Passing signs! :p

[zsm150]

But the ball has a 12 inch radius, so I imagine it wouldn't be that difficult to push in.

This is a assuming that you have a solid driving team that is prepared to control a ball of this size. Speaking from our teams decisions, our chassis is only 27in wide meaning there is only 1.5 inches of play on each side of the ball if it is centered. Just bumping the ball down the field could possible result in unreliability in terms of accuracy of your passing as well as another team can hit your ball out of your possession and push your bot around as much as they want. I would recommend a system that could keep control of the ball while you are moving

[Keegbot]

I think throwing is worth it because scoring in the low goal is relatively easy to do and defend and being able to shoot in the high goal will add diversity to your attack and make you harder to defend. Also, truss points are added to the score as soon as it is thrown (or caught) so if you are at the other end of the field at the end of a match than you could quickly score 10 and a possible 20 points and save the time of having to drive to the other end or pass it to other robots for them to score. I definitely think it is worth it to at least be able to throw.

[Qcom]

Does anyone know what the rule is if the ball leaves the arena ? I assume that if one of the human players catches or stops it they can throw it back in and nothing is lost but time, but what if the blue ball goes into the red player area ? I assume they dont have to throw it back in. Or what if it leaves the arena and isnt playable ?

In particular I am wondering if all of the assist and truss points still stand.

I am going to quote Rule G11:
BALLS may not be intentionally or repeatedly ejected from gameplay.

Violation: FOUL per instance.

Passing a BALL to a HUMAN PLAYER is within gameplay and not considered a violation of G11.

The violation of this rule is a foul per instance a ball is ejected from the field. Nothing is stated about nullification of previous points, so I think we can safely conclude that truss and catch points are still valid (although effectively negated as 20 points would be awarded to the opposing alliance).

[JesseK]

Beware the No Truss-Passing signs! :p

I may just have to make a sign to slap on any defending robot :D

[Mulcahy]

I think the important question here is, when will the High Rollers break a wall clock this year?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raZdkGxq5Ig

We broke a driver station on Sunday. Does that count? :)

[mitchklong]

I am going to quote Rule G11

Yes but i would think G11 refers to intentional ejection. Here is how I see an ejection happening...

Human player feeds to bot 1 who does a truss throw. They do this close to the arena edge because thats where the human feed occurs. The ball in flight bounces off a moving bot and out of the arena, past the human players.

Is this always a penalty ? What if the bot that hit it was just in the wrong place at the wrong time ? And what does a red human player do with a blue ball that lands in their player area ?

[wilhitern1]

Reality check time. In another thread on defense it has been pointed out how easily a defensive bot can position adjacent to the low goal from either open side, and by placing a simple appendage into the low goal, they can prevent the ball from being scored there, from the front, the side, or the top openings.

Unless you can push them away from the low goal (not easy with them tucked in a corner) & score while holding them away, then you have only two options:

1) Win the race with them to the other low goal (assuming no other 2nd bot defender there already)
2) Score in the the high goal.

So, at least until there is rule clarification on whether this way of defending the low goal will be considered legal, it becomes a priority for every match alliance to have at least one member that is a fairly accurate high goal scorer.

-Dick Ledford

Robot B and C come down to the low goal that this defender chooses to defend. B parks in the goaley lane by the defender. C proceeds to score any way it wants at the other goal.

Neal

[Birdie048]

Robot B and C come down to the low goal that this defender chooses to defend. B parks in the goaley lane by the defender. C proceeds to score any way it wants at the other goal.

Neal

Rules were updated to reflect Blocking Low Goals are not allowed.


G26-1 ROBOTS may not break the planes of the openings of the opponent’s LOW GOALS.
Violation: FOUL. If extended, strategic, or repeated, TECHNICAL FOUL.

[EricH]

Rules were updated to reflect Blocking Low Goals are not allowed.


G26-1 ROBOTS may not break the planes of the openings of the opponent’s LOW GOALS.
Violation: FOUL. If extended, strategic, or repeated, TECHNICAL FOUL.

You can block the low goals all you like. You just can't enter the cube (break the plane) to do it. Just means you have to play smart defense.

[Dr.Bot]

The way to by successful is to help your alliance outscore the opponent alliance regardless of the capabilities of allies or partners. The most successful team will be versatile. How boring will a three vs three defensive bot match be? 15/15 ties are not the best way to earn distinction.

I add the most value to my alliance by being the best offensive robot I can field. In this game, the way to be most versatile is to throw and pickup a ball from the field. (Catching and be able to score both high and low adds versatility.)

There will be plenty of good 'defensive and offensive' robots to pick from when you select your elimination partners. But here's the thing, if you are running defense, while it is true, if you are limiting your opponents scoring, you are also lowering your own scoring by at least 30% because in the best case scenario you have removed a 10 point assist per cycle(21 instead of 31). This assumes your defense is effective. Meanwhile, even you are effective at slowing a high scoring alliance, They are still putting in 30 or 40 point cycles and cleaning your clock.

Autonomous defense - this is ridiculous. Why would I want to block a low goal to deny my opponent 2 points, when I can get 5 points by driving forward? I just gave away 3 points.

Tele-op high goal defense - seems impractical - too easy to turn and shoot to avoid defender, to easy to get a foul. One 50 pt technical and your toast.


Defense in general. IMHO the foul points are so high because the game designers intent was to make offense and co-operation between alliance on the offensive game the emphasis. A game that is a race to score the most points by deliberate passing and shooting neck and neck, is more interesting then a big scrum where nothing changes on the scoreboard.

[Popmaster288]

Throwing is definitely worth it. It allows you to do so much. Its even better if you can switch between throwing and rolling. With throwing you can play "monkey in the middle" with a defending opposing robot. You can throw over the truss and give the catch points to your alliance, although I don't recommend it. Unless your team can catch the first try and get into position amazingly fast, its just a waste of precious time. If you play your cards right, then throwing is just as fast, if not faster, than rolling into the low goal. Even though its just a 9 point bonus compared to the low goal, its those 9 points that add up and make the difference in matches.

[Caleb Sykes]

Do you want to be an alliance selector or do you just want to compete in elimination matches?
Alliance selector (top 8):
You will probably need to be able to score high goal and/or truss points. There is no other realistic way to assure that your alliance has a solid shot at winning a majority of matches. If you are paired up with two plowies, it will be on you to score most/all of the points while they play defense and maybe get an assist here and there.
Compete in eliminations (top 24):
You absolutely do not need to score high goal to be selected in eliminations. Have a solid drive train, smart drivers who have practiced and a coach who has analyzed the game well, and you have a good chance of making it. Score in AUTO, have an excellent ball-control mechanism, and maybe throw on a giant net to catch balls, and you will absolutely be in the eliminations.