defense tackle or offensive guard?

[wireties]

The title seems appropriate as I watch Manning and Brady go at it...

Our team is starting to prepare a "playbook" for 2 and 3 assist plays for what (we hope) are common capabilities of likely alliance team members in the eliminations and selected qualifying rounds (where all 3 robots move well). Are many other teams doing this? And is it a worthy discussion topic?

So robots 1 and 2 on alliance A are attempting an assist - what is the most productive activity of the 3rd robot on the alliance? Some choices are to play classic defense against alliance B or guard the alliance A assist or play goalie. Often the capabilities of robot A-3 will dictate an answer but what if robot A-3 could execute any of the 3 activities.

Comments, suggestions?

[Jay O'Donnell]

I think it depends on your opponents. If you're up against a fast cycling alliance with a good scorer, you probably want to play defense. If you're up against a defensive powerhouse, you might need to help by blocking for your partners. Also 1058 has been using football terms for our robot functions and plays.

[Ikillee]

And just like football they'd be caught off guard if you have different plays at your disposal. If the third bot has a skilled enough drive team behind it they but don't have any capabilities, they can switch between offensive blocking and defensive blocking depending on what part of the cycle the opponent is at. It'd be tricky to master though.

[wireties]

I'm thinking basketball is a better analogy - something like bringing the ball down against a full court press. :)

[toddhans]

We've used a white board with markers and magnets in the past for the tournaments to show our teammates what we are thinking. It may be a good idea to have some set plays ready if other alliance partners are able to understand them, and their driver is good enough to execute them. That last part would be the biggest thing that could really make it work or gum it up. However, a good scout team would be able to pick them up pretty quickly, so probably would only want to bring the best ones out when it really is needed. It would really be helpful in eliminations as you are always with the same partners, one would think.

When looking at this game, I always though of it in basketball terms. As a child/teenager of the 1980s and 1990s, I think of a blocking machine that looks to outlet pass (Manute Bol), an assist bot who can pinpoint it over the truss after getting a rolling pass (John Stockton), and the scorer who can catch it quickly and find a way through the defense to score or shoot over it when needed (Michael Jordan).

[JamesCH95]

I'm thinking basketball is a better analogy - something like bringing the ball down against a full court press. :)

Who says it has to be a full-court press? :)

I like the basketball analogy because the fiercest defense will probably be played near the goals.

And good defense to control where an in-bounder is able to put the ball into play will also be valuable.

[cir3]

The rules state in order to get max points the three robots just have to control the ball in individual zones, so if robot one stays in the goalie zone, but when the ball in cycled in the ball goes to robot one first who then hands it off to robot two who moves the ball through zones one and two while robot three plays a sort of forward defense and then receives the ball from robot two and scores then both offense and defense are maximized.... right?

[JamesCH95]

The rules state in order to get max points the three robots just have to control the ball in individual zones, so if robot one stays in the goalie zone, but when the ball in cycled in the ball goes to robot one first who then hands it off to robot two who moves the ball through zones one and two while robot three plays a sort of forward defense and then receives the ball from robot two and scores then both offense and defense are maximized.... right?

Is defense 'maximized' with one robot always in the goalie zone? Or is defense maximized when two robots on an alliance are always interfering with the ball/robot with the ball of the oppoising alliance?

[blaze8902]

Well you can't directly interfere with the opposing alliance's ball, but you can "Offensively Defend". Whether a goalie is effective really comes down to the effectiveness of the opposing robot's shooter. A successful deflection can drastically extend the cycle time of the opposing alliance. However I suspect that in later weeks of the competition this is going to become less and less effective as we begin to see powerful shooters. The problem, I believe, with trying to have two defensive robots is turn-around time. Can you spend any meaningful amount of time defending if you're also trying to multi-task and make sure that you're in position when it is your turn to possess your alliance's ball during your cycle? The robot that possess the ball during the beginning of your cycle has plenty of time to get into the goalie zone, but while the ball is in position of the zone 1 and zone 2 robots, the third robot has the most time to defend through disruption.

[JamesCH95]

I'll phrase my question another way: what good is a goalie that sits in the goalie zone even when the other alliance is nowhere near scoring position?

Coordinating changes from offense to defense and back again is the hardest part of this game. I think that good alliances will transition quickly, the best alliances will do both at the same time.

[Damiaen_Florian]

I think with the "defensive tackle" position you're much more likely to incur penalties than the "offensive guard" position. However I think it really comes down to what Jay O'Donnell said about it depending upon your opponents. Whichever you go with the team defending will either have to be really maneuverable or have one heck of a drive train to push through others.

[Joseph1825]

I think chief delphi should come up with standard names for common "plays" that will happen a lot in competitions so they can be quickly comunicated to your alliance partners.
ie. "How about we run two robot passing with one goalie?"
"Ok, we'll run the blue and white zones so you can play zone defence in the red zone while you don't have the ball."

[JohnSchneider]

I think chief delphi should come up with standard names for common "plays" that will happen a lot in competitions so they can be quickly comunicated to your alliance partners.
ie. "How about we run two robot passing with one goalie?"
"Ok, we'll run the blue and white zones so you can play zone defence in the red zone while you don't have the ball."

Then we can audible. "OMAHA" :rolleyes:

[pfreivald]

Well you can't directly interfere with the opposing alliance's ball

Yes, you can. A single hit is a deflection, not possession. See https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/174/can-a-robot-get-in-the-way-of-two-opposing-robots-and-block-their-pass and https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/160/the-1-17-change-on-possessing-seems-to-say-that-a-bot-may-intentionally-hit-the-opposing-teams-ball-using-only-bots-floor-motion-a-single-time-to-change-its-trajectory-as-this-is-not-possession

[BBray_T1296]

We can have people in the stands holding up these signs:

http://msn.foxsports.com/content/dam/fsdigital/fscom/shows/crowdgoeswild/2013/12/03/PI-CGW-PLAY-CALL-SIGNS-120313.vresize.330.186.high.34.JPG