important skills

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Posted by shaun at 2/4/2001 10:21 PM EST


Other on team #25, nbths robotics team , from nbths and bms.



Besides being able to pick up the big ball. What do you think will be important skills to have this year

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Posted by EJ at 2/4/2001 10:37 PM EST


Student on team #254, Cheesy Poofs, from Bellarmine.


In Reply to: important skills
Posted by shaun on 2/4/2001 10:21 PM EST:



: Besides being able to pick up the big ball. What do you think will be important skills to have this year

i think it will be important to be able to balance the bridge (alone w/ 1 or 2 goals), and to be able to get a strecher to the end zone, release it, and then go and atempt another task...do u have ne ideas? or objections?

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Posted by shaun at 2/5/2001 12:35 AM EST


Other on team #25, nbths robotics team , from nbths and bms.


In Reply to: Re: important skills
Posted by EJ on 2/4/2001 10:37 PM EST:



i think you also need to be able to get to the other side without using the ramp. I beleave, That skill is going to be the most important thing for a final allince. that way you are not waisting time waiting for the bridge.

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Posted by Jessica Boucher at 2/5/2001 6:58 AM EST


Student on team #237, Sie-H2O-Bots, from Watertown High School and Eastern Awning Systems & The Siemon Company.


In Reply to: Re: important skills
Posted by shaun on 2/5/2001 12:35 AM EST:



With a bit of choreography, I think that the ramp can be utilized efficiently ;)

-Jessica B, #237

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Posted by Josh at 2/5/2001 5:13 PM EST


Engineer on team #419, Rambots, from Wentworth Institute of Technology.


In Reply to: I disagree...
Posted by Jessica Boucher on 2/5/2001 6:58 AM EST:



: With a bit of choreography, I think that the ramp can be utilized efficiently ;)

: -Jessica B, #237

What happens when you are on an alliance with three other teams all trying to get their jobs done...

Do you honestly think the bridge will be able to be utilized as efficiently as possible with 4 teams rushing to get over it?

Some teams don't work together within their own team, what is to say they will all work together with 3 other teams?

Josh
Team 419
"Murphy's Laws: Nature is a mother."

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Posted by Erin at 2/5/2001 7:13 AM EST


Other on team #65, Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.


In Reply to: Re: important skills
Posted by shaun on 2/5/2001 12:35 AM EST:



I believe that being able to go over or under the pole will take just as much time if not more time than the bridge. And if your robot busts a motor on the pole, dies under it, or just plain gets stuck, then who is getting you out of that mess? if you are dead on the ramp, at least there is still good ol' fashioned PUSHING. And I also believe it with limbo bots and rail jumpers that it would take just as much time to get all 4 to the other side of the field. Imagine how much your robot is going to have to put up with by going over or under? I believe it may prove useful some of the time, and it will be real flashy and whatever, but I agree with most of the rest of the engineers on my team when i say that this is a skill that may prove inefficient and will not necessarily be the key to winning a game. Hotbot used the ramp last year instead of the limbo, and they were still totally awesome :)

lets put bets now- the national champions won't win because of their ability to go over or under the bar :)

erin

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Posted by Joe Johnson at 2/5/2001 8:33 AM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: ooo, i strongly disagree
Posted by Erin on 2/5/2001 7:13 AM EST:



Erin,

Even odds. The National Championship Alliance will have at least one robot on the field that will go under or over the rail during their high score.

How many cans of Dew can I mark you down for?

Joe J.

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Posted by Erin at 2/5/2001 11:02 AM EST


Other on team #65, Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.


In Reply to: I'll take some of that action...
Posted by Joe Johnson on 2/5/2001 8:33 AM EST:



First off, no dew. I hate Dew!!!!

Second off, I wasn't saying that the alliance wouldn't have at least one or two rail jumpers (I bet it will) I am just saying that they won't be winning because of that robots ability to do it.

Third and lastly, if you still want to bet, let's think of something besides Dew!

-Erin

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Posted by Joe Johnson at 2/5/2001 12:09 PM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: Re: I'll take some of that action...
Posted by Erin on 2/5/2001 11:02 AM EST:



First off, Dew Haters are weird! ;-)

Second off, The wording of my bet remains "the National Championship Alliance will score their highest score in a match that at least one robot goes over or under the bar." If they didn't need it to win, why did they do it -- to show off?

Third off, make me a proposal if you want to bet something else. How about pizza?

Fourth and lastly, if you don't like pizza I can't help you ;-)

Joe J.

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Posted by Erin at 2/5/2001 2:25 PM EST


Other on team #65, Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.


In Reply to: Make an offer
Posted by Joe Johnson on 2/5/2001 12:09 PM EST:



Pizza is good- How about enough pizzas for me and my PNHS Huskies? If you win, I feed the PCHS Chiefs. As long as mine has pinapple and ham, YOU'RE ON. I won't forget this one Dr. Joe.

Remember the terms- The winning alliance will not win based upon the usage of a robot's "rail-jumping" or "limbo" capabilities.

Agree?

-Erin
"Get ready to get ran over by Dog Tracks"

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Posted by Joe Johnson at 2/5/2001 3:11 PM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: Re: Make an offer
Posted by Erin on 2/5/2001 2:25 PM EST:



The stake is fine, as most folks know, I love pizza and so do the Mighty Chiefs.

But...

The bet you describe is too vague and not the wager I am willing to make.

Here is the bet I will make:

The National Championship Alliance will score their highest score in a match in which at least one robot goes over or under the bar.

Accept or reject the bet as you like, but the above statement is what I am willing to wager on.

Joe J.

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Posted by Ken Leung at 2/5/2001 5:05 PM EST


Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M. Gunn Senior High School.


In Reply to: No Deal...
Posted by Joe Johnson on 2/5/2001 3:11 PM EST:



Talk about OT from discussion about robot going over the bar to a long thread about betting in the game and Dews and Pizza! I will tell you my problem at the end of this message.

Well... while I am ON topic about the bet, is this bet open to outsiders? I want in! But I am going to support Erin's side:

The National Championship Alliance will score their highest score in a match in which NONE of the robots goes over or under the bar.

Now, one more thing, you may not modify the design of your robot so that you will now win the National Championship AND goes over/under the bar if you never design your robot as such before this bet started.

As for payment, it will be unfair for you to supply two teams' pizza, so all you have to do is to supply Erin's team pizza, and a case of Dew for me. And the other way goes- Erin will supply your team's pizza while a case of Dew for you from me.

Sigh... I will really take on this bet if I can afford to go to Florida... Hope this bet works out. But if I actually show up over there, the bet is on, right?

-Ken Leung

(I am serious. I have a problem. As of now I do not have any money for me to even get close to Florida. I am just a student helping out my team, so I am not going to ask them to reduce my price. Maybe I can start a part-time job right now... I shall see what happens. But chances are that I won't be able to show up at Florida, and even if I can I won't have any money for hotel or food.)

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Posted by Josh at 2/5/2001 5:16 PM EST


Engineer on team #419, Rambots, from Wentworth Institute of Technology.


In Reply to: I have a problem.
Posted by Ken Leung on 2/5/2001 5:05 PM EST:




: Now, one more thing, you may not modify the design of your robot so that you will now win the National Championship AND goes over/under the bar if you never design your robot as such before this bet started.

We have 2 weeks left till regionals...

Who in their right mind would change their entire design just for pizza?

Pardon my ignorance, but wouldn't that be...umm....kinda...idiotic?

Josh
Team 419
Yes, i am a tad bit bitter today, "...pardon me while i burst into the flames..."

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Posted by Erin at 2/5/2001 5:51 PM EST


Other on team #65, Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.


In Reply to: I have a problem.
Posted by Ken Leung on 2/5/2001 5:05 PM EST:



no no no ken!!! hehe

Read the message posted directly above this one, ok? I must speak in a manner which confuses everyone unintentionally, and I apologize for doing so...

But hey, can we bet on something else??

I WANT PIZZA, and I think Joe wants his Dew.

-Erin

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Posted by Joe Johnson at 2/5/2001 8:34 PM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: I have a problem.
Posted by Ken Leung on 2/5/2001 5:05 PM EST:



Ken,

Are you serious? You have GOT to be going to FL!

Something is seriously wrong with the world if you put
in all the time I image you put in on this thing and
you don't get to go to the big show.

Get out your hat and start beggin' man!

Keep us in the loop.

Joe J.

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Posted by Josh at 2/5/2001 11:05 PM EST


Engineer on team #419, Rambots, from Wentworth Institute of Technology.


In Reply to: ZOUNDS!
Posted by Joe Johnson on 2/5/2001 8:34 PM EST:



: Ken,

: Are you serious? You have GOT to be going to FL!

: Something is seriously wrong with the world if you put
: in all the time I image you put in on this thing and
: you don't get to go to the big show.

: Get out your hat and start beggin' man!

: Keep us in the loop.

: Joe J.

Hey anton, this gives me an idea...

For a fund raiser, we add a few extra temporary functions on our robot and show it off at Quincy Market or down in the T station...
We can have a bucket for change and we can drive the robot around helping people put luggage on trains...:)

Josh
Team 419
"Murphy's Laws: A Smith & Wesson beats four aces"

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Posted by Josh at 2/5/2001 11:05 PM EST


Engineer on team #419, Rambots, from Wentworth Institute of Technology.


In Reply to: ZOUNDS!
Posted by Joe Johnson on 2/5/2001 8:34 PM EST:



: Ken,

: Are you serious? You have GOT to be going to FL!

: Something is seriously wrong with the world if you put
: in all the time I image you put in on this thing and
: you don't get to go to the big show.

: Get out your hat and start beggin' man!

: Keep us in the loop.

: Joe J.

Hey anton, this gives me an idea...

For a fund raiser, we add a few extra temporary functions on our robot and show it off at Quincy Market or down in the T station...
We can have a bucket for change and we can drive the robot around helping people put luggage on trains...:)

Josh
Team 419
"Murphy's Laws: A Smith & Wesson beats four aces"

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Posted by Matt Leese at 2/5/2001 8:54 PM EST


Other on team #73, Tigerbolt, from Edison Technical HS and Alstom & Rochester Institute of Technology.


In Reply to: I have a problem.
Posted by Ken Leung on 2/5/2001 5:05 PM EST:



Well, if you're really desperate to go to Nationals, do what I'm doing. I'm not sure if 73 can make the trip (we're tracking down another possible sponsor where we might JUST get enough money to go to nationals -- anyone interested in helping us out, feel free to contact me ;). Basically, I told my parents they're going and they're going to take me if the team doesn't go and otherwise they're gonna watch my team compete. ;) The funness of being in college and trying to bum a way to nationals.....

Matt who really, really, really hopes his team can go

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Posted by Erin at 2/5/2001 5:47 PM EST


Other on team #65, Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.


In Reply to: No Deal...
Posted by Joe Johnson on 2/5/2001 3:11 PM EST:



::::Second off, I wasn't saying that the alliance wouldn't have at least one or two rail jumpers or limbo bots (I bet it will) I am just saying that they won't be winning because of that robots ability to do it::::

I already agreed with you on that one.. I just said that they aren't there necessarily because of their ability jump or duck :)

So instead of arguing, we are agreeing! Maybe I will buy pizza for you anyways.

-Erin

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Posted by Bill Beatty at 2/8/2001 4:18 PM EST


Other on team #71, Team Hammond, from Team Hammond.


In Reply to: Re: No Deal...
Posted by Erin on 2/5/2001 5:47 PM EST:



Joe

I have got to go with Erin on this one. I don't know if the winning alliance will have a rail jumper/limboer or not, but as more alliances discover that two robots can easily go over the bridge together it starts to negate any time savings such machines can offer.

Mr. Bill

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Posted by Michael Betts at 2/8/2001 4:33 PM EST


Engineer on team #177, Bobcat Robotics, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells.


In Reply to: Re: No Deal...
Posted by Bill Beatty on 2/8/2001 4:18 PM EST:



Bill,

I'm still siding with Dr. J.

As I said in my earlier post, I'll elaborate (as to why) on Sunday.

Mike

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Posted by Stephen Riley at 2/6/2001 8:41 PM EST


Engineer on team #419, RAMBOTS, from Wentworth Institute of Technology and Umass/BCHigh and Mathsoft, Solidworks, and NASA.


In Reply to: No Deal...
Posted by Joe Johnson on 2/5/2001 3:11 PM EST:



hey can i get in on this action? i want in on Joes side, i think limbo bots will help get the highest score possible, i'll do what Ken is doing, but i don't want Dew i want a case of Coke :) is this ok with Joe and Erin? afterall it is their bet originally, but i am having same problems as Ken so if i do manage to make it to Nationals then i'm in if i can't make it, well i don't know how i would ever send the dew or pizza that i would need to :)

Steve

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Posted by Jason Wolf at 2/6/2001 10:54 PM EST


Student on team #375, Robotic Plague, from Staten Island Technical HS and Verizon.


In Reply to: No Deal...
Posted by Joe Johnson on 2/5/2001 3:11 PM EST:



Ok I want in, if this is how it looks I am with Erin, also anyone who wants to bet with me on anything feel free to tell me, I am a betting man and got some preliminary thoughts on who will win.
Jason
jw1003@aol.com
feel free to contact me

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Posted by Justin Ridley at 2/6/2001 12:57 PM EST


Engineer on team #221, MI Roboworks, from Michigan Technological University.


In Reply to: ooo, i strongly disagree
Posted by Erin on 2/5/2001 7:13 AM EST:



Maybe I'm a bit prejudice, but I think going under the bar will be an important skill. I agree that going over may take some more time than just going over the ramp, but I think driving under can be much faster. I just recall who I thought the best puck driving teams were from 99. The best climbers seemed to be able to just drive up, without extra mechanisms, and 3.5 inches is much easier than the 6 inches those bots were climbing.

Does going under the bar totally limit your abilities? I will admit, there isn't a whole lot of room to package everything, but I think it looks a lot shorter that it really is, and I know we'll be suprised to see what teams can do and still go under the bar.

Basically it boils down to if the ramp is blocked and you want to get to the other side, are you screwed, or can you get there another way?

Will they be a factor in the finals? Of course. . . there are five teams, four on the field. Won't you want one of those to have the ability to simply get to the other side of the field as quickly as possible, w/o dealing with the ramp?

Justin Ridley - MI Roboworks

PS - Expect to see pics of our bot up soon

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Posted by Geli Donut at 2/5/2001 9:56 AM EST


Student on team #141, WO-Bot, from West Ottawa High School and Johnson Controls Inc..


In Reply to: Re: important skills
Posted by shaun on 2/5/2001 12:35 AM EST:



: i think you also need to be able to get to the other side without using the ramp. I beleave, That skill is going to be the most important thing for a final allince. that way you are not waisting time waiting for the bridge.

Over the bar? Are you a rookie team? It just isn't a good idea. I don't see that happening often, if not at all. The abuse, and complication of doing so is enourmous.

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Posted by Chris Orimoto at 2/5/2001 2:37 PM EST


Student on team #368, Kika Mana, from McKinley High School and Nasa Ames/Hawaiian Electric/Weinberg Foundation.


In Reply to: Are you rookies?
Posted by Geli Donut on 2/5/2001 9:56 AM EST:



Number one, I don't think you should be discriminating against the rookies. We were all rookies at one point and even as "non-rookies" we have all made rookie mistakes.

Number two, I think that you will be quite surprised to see exactly HOW effective going under the bar can be, especially because this year's competition is a "race" against time.

And finally, I am up for that bet that the National Champions WILL have at least one robot that can and will go under/over the bar." I think that it shall be a very good skill to have and that any team that is able to do it effectively shall add another dimension to their strategy.

Just my personal thoughts...

Chris, #368
"Just because you've never seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist..."

PS: Dew, pizza...it's all the same for me. You'll just have to ship it out to Hawaii. ;)

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Posted by shaun at 2/5/2001 2:39 PM EST


Other on team #25, nbths robotics team , from nbths and bms.


In Reply to: Are you rookies?
Posted by Geli Donut on 2/5/2001 9:56 AM EST:



not only can we go over the bar, we can do it as quick as any robot going over the ramp. And about being a rookie team we have been around about 5 years.

p.s. if you want to see our robot just look at our we page

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Posted by Joe Ross at 2/5/2001 3:29 PM EST


Engineer on team #330, Beach Bot, from Hope Chapel Academy and NASA/JPL , J&F Machine, and Raytheon.


In Reply to: Re: Are you rookies?
Posted by shaun on 2/5/2001 2:39 PM EST:



Not only are they not rookies, they are the defending national champions.

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Posted by Ken Leung at 2/4/2001 10:50 PM EST


Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M. Gunn Senior High School.


In Reply to: important skills
Posted by shaun on 2/4/2001 10:21 PM EST:



: Besides being able to pick up the big ball. What do you think will be important skills to have this year

There are lots of important skills in this game... The three always come up: big ball picking, tower controlling, bridge balancing. Beside those threes are the other skills that's consider "important" only in some situation: Gate keeping, stretcher controlling, small ball controling.

But to me, there are two most important skills that robot should always have in order to get a good score in a match: able to touchdown with whatever mean, and doing everything REALLY REALLY QUICKLY. It is one thing that robot can specialize in certain task, but it is another thing when the robot specialize in certain task within 30 sec. or 1 min.

And don't take touchdown for granted... from time to time, it is hard to get a touchdown when there are only a few seconds left in the time-multiplier period.

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Posted by ChrisH at 2/5/2001 12:16 AM EST


Engineer on team #330, Beach 'Bots, from Hope Chapel Academy and NASA JPL, J & F Machine, Raytheon, et al.


In Reply to: important skills
Posted by shaun on 2/4/2001 10:21 PM EST:



: Besides being able to pick up the big ball. What do you think will be important skills to have this year

I think the most important skill your team can have this year is the ability to communicate quickly and efficiently just what your robot and drivers are capable of doing (and sometimes not capable of doing).

The information must be accurate and easily understood by the teams you are playing with. Don't say you can pick up the big balls if you can only do it 50% of the time and then it takes 1:30 to do that and get it on the goal.

I'd much rather play with a barely functional robot whose team is honest about their capabilities than one that has a team who is "a legend in their own mind"

Just my $0.02

Chris Husmann, PE
Team 330 the Beach'Bots

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Posted by Chris Orimoto at 2/5/2001 12:38 AM EST


Student on team #368, Kika Mana, from McKinley High School and Nasa Ames/Hawaiian Electric/Weinberg Foundation.


In Reply to: important skills
Posted by shaun on 2/4/2001 10:21 PM EST:



Actually, I don't think that picking up the big ball is going to be an "essential" skill. I think that it is important to focus on a couple or a few skills and be able to do them very well. This gives you a good chance at being picked for an alliance in the elimination rounds, or, in fact, being the one picking alliances.

In my humble opinion, I think that MANY teams are working on balancing the bridge. I haven't heard much toward picking up small balls as of yet. A surprising amount of robots shall be able to cross to the other side of the field via means other than the bridge.

So, besides all this rambling, what do I think is the most important skill? Well, although it may not be much of a "skill" but I think that a robot absolutely NEEDS to be able to get into the endzone. It does sound simple, but it's pretty much the easiest 10 points you can get.

Just my personal thoughts...

Chris, #368

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Posted by Joe Ross at 2/5/2001 1:32 AM EST


Engineer on team #330, Beach Bot, from Hope Chapel Academy and NASA/JPL , J&F Machine, and Raytheon.


In Reply to: important skills
Posted by shaun on 2/4/2001 10:21 PM EST:



It doesn't really matter what you do, IMO, as long as you can do it consistantly.

Besides that, for the qualifying rounds, the most important thing a robot can do is balance two goals, since that is what gets you the most points.

For the elimination rounds, as long as you have a specialty, you will be a valuable partner.

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Posted by Ken Leung at 2/5/2001 3:30 AM EST


Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M. Gunn Senior High School.


In Reply to: consistancy
Posted by Joe Ross on 2/5/2001 1:32 AM EST:



: For the elimination rounds, as long as you have a specialty, you will be a valuable partner.

I am not so sure about that. Besides being a special robot, you will ALWAYS need to work well along with other robots to be part of an alliance. Say you can put small balls in a goal by tipping it over, then that's a special robot. But when you are tipping the goal over and it gets in the way of other robot all the time, chances are, other teams are not going to pick you.

Well, this is just an example anyway... I am sure teams are going to design their robot so they won't be "in the way" of other robot. But since teams don't know what kind of robot other people will be building, it's pretty hard to design robots to work together perfectly.

That's why top seed teams are going to pick partners when going into finals... they will just have to rely on chances that there is this robot somewhere out, and that robot will be perfect together in an alliance.

-Ken Leung

I am all for prefect alliance and not perfect individual robots.

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Posted by Erin at 2/5/2001 6:59 AM EST


Other on team #65, Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.


In Reply to: important skills
Posted by shaun on 2/4/2001 10:21 PM EST:



I don't think that being able to pick up the big ball will be part of having a consistent high score. If you are always with an alliance that gets 2 big balls (no matter what team), gets both goals up, and at least 3 robots in the end zone, 15 seconds before the match is over, and you can do it AGAIN AND AGAIN (i know this is a long sentence hold your beath) then I think that they will be the ones who win.

"Simplicity is the Key"

-Erin

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Posted by bill whitley at 2/5/2001 6:54 PM EST


Student on team #70, Auto City Bandits, from Powers Catholic High School and Kettering University.


In Reply to: consistency is not the only key...
Posted by Erin on 2/5/2001 6:59 AM EST:



This is my teams 4th year, and we have been extremely consistent over the previous three years. Anyone who knows of my team can vouch for that. We have been consistently BAD. More important than being consistent, you have to have a decent robot.

Bill
Team 70

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Posted by Erin at 2/6/2001 7:56 AM EST


Other on team #65, Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.


In Reply to: consistency is DEFINATELY NOT the key
Posted by bill whitley on 2/5/2001 6:54 PM EST:



Bill,

Your my friend and everything, but what I was talking about was GOOD CONSISTENCY. I meant the consistency to get a high score. if you read my post again, you might get it that way. im not talking about consistency in a bad way, of couse i knew that doesn't get you anywhere...

-erin
"i smile because i have no idea what's going on....sometimes"

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Posted by Tom at 2/5/2001 5:11 PM EST


Student on team #25, Raider Robotix, from North Brunswick Township High School and Bristol Myers-Squib.


In Reply to: important skills
Posted by shaun on 2/4/2001 10:21 PM EST:



Going over the bar probably the best strategy this year, mostly because:

a)It leaves room for building upward, unlike going under the bar where you are cramped for space.

b) In the long run it saves the time for reseting the bridge for another robot to go over.

c)having the abiliy to be taller and not use the bridge makes it easier to balance the bridge. You have more control of the bridge with a taller & wider robot drawing the goals further in to the center of the bridge, and bringing the center of gravity down.

With all of that I predit that the final alliance will have 2 robots that go over the bar (one that can balance & one that can place a big ball) and two that need the bridge to cross and pick up little balls.

[archiver]

Posted by Joe Johnson at 2/5/2001 8:49 PM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: Re: important skills
Posted by Tom on 2/5/2001 5:11 PM EST:



"Taller" and "bringing the center of gravity down" do
not belong in the same paragraph.

Think about it.

Joe J.

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Posted by PAUL GIANNOSA at 2/5/2001 10:23 PM EST


Engineer on team #27, TEAM RUSH, from OSMTECH and TEXTRON AUTOMOTIVE CO..


In Reply to: Thnk man think!
Posted by Joe Johnson on 2/5/2001 8:49 PM EST:



: "Taller" and "bringing the center of gravity down" do
: not belong in the same paragraph.

: Think about it.

: Joe J.
HEY. GIVE THE GUY A BREAK. THIS TIME OF THE SEASON WE ALL SAY THINGS WHICH WE WOULDN'T SAY UNDER NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES. FOR INSTANCE MILITARY INTELLIGENCE. BUSH-LOWER TAXES-READ MY LIPS, VOTE COUNTERS IN FLORIDA REALLY CAN COUNT ONCE. CLINTON-I DID/DIDNOT /WELL MAYBE/WELL DEFINE SAX? PMGRACER