A Coach for the Alliance - The Supercoach

[ttldomination]

In the past couple of years, I've often wondered if an alliance wide coach, a person I've deemed as the supercoach, would be a beneficial role. More specifically, the supercoach is the person who would control the alliance as a whole and direct teams with respect to a predetermined strategy.

Considering this year's game, I think the supercoach is more relevant than ever. With robots having quite a few possible positions, tasks, and goals (each of which can change as quickly as a ball changes possession) alliances are going to need to coordinate on an unprecedented level to ensure that each robot is exactly where it's needed.

Two minutes go by fast, so more than likely, the supercoach would be behind all three drive teams either yelling out movements or hurrying over to a coach/team to give them specific instructions.

There are some questions that arise from this:
Where does the supercoach fit into a drive teams?
Well, this year's game only requires two human players (one in the far zone and one delivering balls from the pedestal to the field). The supercoach's team would have to use their human player as their acting-coach.

Is this viable during qualifications?
Perhaps not. In qualifications you have to contend with (a) explaining the concept to other teams, (b) trusting that a good supercoach is picked, (c) trusting that the teams on your alliance are willing to orders from a supercoach, or (d) teams not having a human player capable of coaching. Any combination of these four issues could mean that the alliance isn't a good fit for a supercoach. However, qualifications would be a good test run/proof of concept for supercoaching.

Just a thought,
- Sunny G.

[ghostmachine360]

Agreed that a supercoach would be something beneficial with this year's game. I would say another thing to consider if taking this concept to qualifications would be if the other teams can understand & follow-though expediently and correctly on audibles that the supercoach calls. Also, depending on how you set up these alliances with the supercoach, you may have to change up how plays are relayed from match-to-match. In the case where you are allied with one team 1 match, and then meet them again during quals/elims on the other side of the glass, you have to make sure that the element of surprise is still on your side when play-calling.

[gpetilli]

I like the concept. Minor clarification - there are three human player locations - one at the pedestal, and one on either side of the far field to receive ejected balls to inbound. There is no human player available to "super coach"

that said, during qualifiers the teams will need to negotiate which team's coach will act as super coach. During eliminations it is simpler; it would be the highest seeded team's coach as the recognized team captain.

[M.O'Reilly]

An alliance would benefit from a "supercoach" only if they were the only coach in the alliance. 1 ball, 1 coach makes a little sense. Theoretically though, a supercoach should exist already: the top seed of the alliance would command or defer to another coach with more experience and/or more scouting data on hand. Any alliance with three coaches with three strategies is doomed.

[XaulZan11]

I like the concept. Minor clarification - there are three human player locations - one at the pedestal, and one on either side of the far field to receive ejected balls to inbound. There is no human player available to "super coach"

Is there anything that says you are required to place human players at each location?

[ttldomination]

Is there anything that says you are required to place human players at each location?

I like the concept. Minor clarification - there are three human player locations - one at the pedestal, and one on either side of the far field to receive ejected balls to inbound. There is no human player available to "super coach" ...

G8 states that human players can start in the zones or behind the white line. If an alliance is opting to run the supercoach, one of their human player zones would be empty.

- Sunny G.

[gpetilli]

G8 states that human players can start in the zones or behind the white line. If an alliance is opting to run the supercoach, one of their human player zones would be empty.

- Sunny G.

leaving a HP zone empty could delay putting a ball back in play if the ref has to go back to the drivers station. Rule G9 allows for 1 coach, 2 drivers and 1 human player per team. Why would you allocate a human player to be a supercoach when you have three coaches doing nothing?

[bkahl]

I think you will see a lot of this "supercoach" strategy during Elims at CMP. With the new rule regarding 4 alliances, the fourth alliance can have a representative behind the glass, giving the alliance a fourth coach.

[ttldomination]

leaving a HP zone empty could delay putting a ball back in play if the ref has to go back to the drivers station. Rule G9 allows for 1 coach, 2 drivers and 1 human player per team. Why would you allocate a human player to be a supercoach when you have three coaches doing nothing?

Great teams rely on great drive teams, which rely on great coaches. If you are under the opinion that the three coaches are 'doing nothing', then perhaps you do not fully understand the importance of coaches.

The intent is not to necessarily make the human player the supercoach, but rather pull a human player to fill a missing coach position.

As far as "delaying putting a ball back into play," it's a valid concern. I personally don't think that balls will go out of play all too often (maybe once every handful of matches), but if it becomes a common occurrence, the alliance would have to carefully consider how/whether to assign a supercoach.

- Sunny G.

[WaterClaw]

in reference to the OP;

My only concern with super coaches is teams fighting over who would have ultimate control. During the heat of the moment, everyone has very jacked up opinions of their abilities and often are far less capable than they think they are.

Also, with one of the coaches being the super coach you run the risk of your drive team being forced to handle the environments of the game all on they're own and hence taxing their focus on their specified tasks. You would need to have a highly competent drive team and an even more competent commander to coordinate all three teams in the alliance at once.

[WaterClaw]

I like the concept. Minor clarification - there are three human player locations - one at the pedestal, and one on either side of the far field to receive ejected balls to inbound. There is no human player available to "super coach"

that said, during qualifiers the teams will need to negotiate which team's coach will act as super coach. During eliminations it is simpler; it would be the highest seeded team's coach as the recognized team captain.

I think one of the coaches would have to manage all three in coordinating which puts an alarming amount of pressure on the drivers of the team short the coach.

[Caleb Sykes]

It will be interesting to see if any teams use their secondary driver as a "temporary human player". Many robot designs will probably allow for single-driver control when not dealing with the ball. This will leave some secondary drivers inactive for long periods of time. If an alliance really wanted both a "supercoach" and a human player in each of the far zones, it would not be unrealistic for them to use a driver who is not doing anything at the moment to inbound the ball. This would free up the human player in the alliance station to be the supercoach for the whole match.

EDIT: After re-reading the relevant sections of the manual, I think that the "driver becomes temporary human player" is probably just a loophole. Then again, maybe not since G34 addresses only coaches and not drivers. In any case, I am going to make sure that my team's secondary driver has at least a little experience passing the ball to our robot.

[gpetilli]

It will be interesting to see if any teams use their secondary driver as a "temporary human player". Many robot designs will probably allow for single-driver control when not dealing with the ball. This will leave some secondary drivers inactive for long periods of time. If an alliance really wanted both a "supercoach" and a human player in each of the far zones, it would not be unrealistic for them to use a driver who is not doing anything at the moment to inbound the ball. This would free up the human player in the alliance station to be the supercoach for the whole match.

EDIT: After re-reading the relevant sections of the manual, I think that the "driver becomes temporary human player" is probably just a loophole. Then again, maybe not since G34 addresses only coaches and not drivers. In any case, I am going to make sure that my team's secondary driver has at least a little experience passing the ball to our robot.

I have not scoured the rules other than i remember them disallowing the couch from touching the ball, but each team member has a button he wears saying his role. they usually keep them very specialized. The coach is usually the only team member that is allowed to not be a student, which is probably why he/she can not touch the ball.

[Dan.Tyler]

Coaches on veteran alliances at regionals usually define one of the coaches to run the alliance in addition to their own drivers.

It's tough, but not unattainable. The key there is having a solid strategic base to build from. Set your strategy ahead of the match, and you only need alliance communications if something goes wrong.

[GaryVoshol]

I have not scoured the rules other than i remember them disallowing the couch from touching the ball, but each team member has a button he wears saying his role. they usually keep them very specialized. The coach is usually the only team member that is allowed to not be a student, which is probably why he/she can not touch the ball.

As I recall, only the Coach's button is different (usually it has a sticker on it).

Not even when we had the Robo-Coach (if you don't know, don't ask) for Overdrive did we have distinct buttons. I remember because I don't know how many times I saw the Robo-Coach coming to the field wearing the Coach's button.

[ttldomination]

in reference to the OP;

My only concern with super coaches is teams fighting over who would have ultimate control. During the heat of the moment, everyone has very jacked up opinions of their abilities and often are far less capable than they think they are.

Also, with one of the coaches being the super coach you run the risk of your drive team being forced to handle the environments of the game all on they're own and hence taxing their focus on their specified tasks. You would need to have a highly competent drive team and an even more competent commander to coordinate all three teams in the alliance at once.

Your first point is perfectly valid and in my original post, it's listed as reason (c) as to why the supercoach position may fall apart during qualifications.

As far as the coach-less drivers are concerned, I've touched on this once before, but my intention is that one of the human players can transition into the coaching position. I understand that some folks are not comfortable with this, but there are quite a few options here. Perhaps the pedestal human player can alternate between coach and human player. Perhaps the operator can transition into the coach since he/she usually isn't as intense into the robot as the main driver.

Another question that may come up:
What is your team doing to support the supercoach position?
We're doing a small number of things that will not only help us support the supercoach position, but also make our driveteam better.
1) The drive team coach understands, and fully accepts, the concept of a supercoach. Our drive team coach is prepared to not only become the supercoach, but take instructions from a supercoach from a different team.
2) Usually, our human player is someone who compliment's the drive team's personality. This year, the human player will also be someone who can replace the coach during the match.

- Sunny G.

[JesseK]

I don't know that I'd call the position 'super-coach', but having someone announce numbers & assists from the screen is HIGHLY valuable. The logistics would really come down to how much autonomy the 3 drive teams can handle.

[PayneTrain]

Here's a question to throw out for fun that's also on this topic: how many third picks at championship will be picked up primarily because of known drive coach pedigree to be the 13th representative at the alliance station? Would a veteran team with a mediocre robot but good strategy brains be considered a pickup over a stronger robot with an unexperienced drive team?

[Abhishek R]

Here's a question to throw out for fun that's also on this topic: how many third picks at championship will be picked up primarily because of known drive coach pedigree to be the 13th representative at the alliance station? Would a veteran team with a mediocre robot but good strategy brains be considered a pickup over a stronger robot with an unexperienced drive team?

If there's a year for that, this would be it. Though I feel that teams with a known strong strategist will be on teams that are performing well enough to be a 1st or 2nd pick, it may be a factor when trying to distinguish between two robots of equal capability for the first/second pick.

[Chris is me]

I think this is definitely a job that can be done by one of the three existing coaches. Many teams, especially at the elite level, do not need their drivers to be constantly advised by a mentor coach. The side effect here is that the most well practiced team gets to assist the rest of the alliance strategically.

Fun side note: In 2011, the game actually had an analyst position for one of the human players. It was very rarely useful, but in some situations it worked okay. In a match at IRI, the team I was working with used an analyst to announce which tubes the scoring teams should attempt to go for and starve off the field. The only reason this was necessary was because all three drive teams needed more active coaching.

[ThunderousPrime]

I think the Supercoach strategy utilized to its fullest potential eliminations much more than qualification matches. It will be too much for some teams (esp. rookies) while explaining match strategy to throw the additional curveball of Supercoach strategy. Unless many teams understand the idea of the Supercoach and no explanation is necessary then it will likely be a bother to try to explain the process in the limited qualification prematch time. It wouldn't be impossible to explain but it is not yet proven that explaining the Supercoach strategy during prematch may be more effective than normal prematch strategy plus an undesignated "free-floating coach" during the match. Now the Supercoach strategy becomes much easier with strategy-savvy veterans on the alliance who understand the concept of a "free-floating coach" from prior years. The "Supercoach" as Sunny defines the term simply formalizes the that one coach to lead the alliance and allows HP to transition into the position of that team's drivers' coach. In eliminations when strategies are often set it will become much easier for the alliance captain or designated Supercoach to take leadership because of more planning time.

Definition: "Free-Floating Coach" - An undesignated coach that leaves his drivers to move within the alliance station and communicate key pieces of information with other coaches and HPs. This is essentially the predecessor of the "Supercoach."

Also as others have said there is no rules prohibiting having multiple HPs in the alliance station. I would recommend having 2 in the alliance station and 1 in one of the far HP zones for the super coach strategy and here is why: Have one HP be at the pedestal to take the ball of the pedestal and pass it to the second HP who temporarily leaves his drive team to inbound the ball. The pass decreases the inbound time and likely has a minimal impact on the unattended and ball-less drivers who likely are waiting for said ball.

Final Opinion: I think the Supercoach strategy will be effective as long as ALL alliance members are on board with the plan. This means choosing and following the selected Supercoach's audibles without delay or questioning. If the other two teams are willing to be selfless and let a Supercoach call the shots then I believe that this coordination alone can take an alliance deep into Saturday as a result of the emphasis placed on 30pt Assists.

Sorry if this post seems long, but this is a great thread and I had a lot to say. As a coach I'm looking forward to trying this out in matches.

[Mr. Rip]

As long as our drive team was not having issues last year, I would hover behind the other driver stations to make sure our entire alliance was working together well. If someone suddenly deviated from a strategy that we had discussed, I would "encourage" them to get back to the zone they were defending or back away from the pyramid as our opponents started climbing.

The coach of our alliance captain at Champs, Mr. T, was really good at this, watching what was happening on the field and letting the other two teams know what needed to get done. It was a great experience working with our alliance partners this way.

I agree with the earlier post that this is what many top teams already do. I have learned so much from other drive coaches during these times when we have been lucky enough to be partnered with a team like the Killer Bees and Jim Zondag.

Mr. Rip

[Erobot]

There are a few qualities necessary to be a super_coach.

Good Scouting data.(that have an analytic side, graphs)
Preferably A upper ranked robot (but not always)
An awareness of who their allied with and the opponents(EVERY MATCH)
Experience as driver, humanplayer, etc.

Our team is special to have a robotics student design and program a scouting system that tracks all the teams.
This covers robots from being disabled to "do they have an autonomous" every match. All can be analyzed on a computer to note trends of robots for recent matches. Also see the percentage of chance to winning a match.

A Super_coach has to have the data or the numbers to show his alliance members. And, prove the credentials to compose the statement. This is what we have recorded you doing on the field. Scout data is crucial for that reason. This helps clears the emotions, feelings or pride of teams when discussing who takes leadership with your allies.

Its handy for a super_coach to be aware of who their against. They can refer back to their scouting data to see what the teams are effective at and pursue strategies for winning the match. A playbook is very HELPFUL in communicating to allies the task a super_coach wants them to perform. That takes guts and confidence for a person to do but is easy when you have the data to show.

Frank was the ideal super_coach for team 701 last year which in return brought back our first blue banners.:rolleyes:
Profile name: BedHead

[Ben Martin]

I first got to experience a little bit of this play style when we played with Jared of 341 at Chestnut Hill last year. We started employing more of it when we were lucky enough to be an alliance captain several times at different off-season events. Strategically, I think it really is the stronger way to go, as it kind of drives everyone to compete toward the same overall strategy and facilitates communication throughout the alliance. In this game, in the majority of cases, I would defer to whoever has the dominant robot to determine the overall strategy, regardless of whether or not they want to pass the "supercoach" role onto one of the other coaches.

In past games, if you want to execute this during qualification rounds, you really risk labeling yourself as a bossy team if the strategy goes sour or you don't give a team a chance to shine, and negative reputations are hard things to overcome in FIRST sometimes. With a game that requires so much interaction, though, it may be expected for strategies like this to be employed, making it less of a risk. We'll watch the week 1 and 2 events to see how everyone is playing this game and adjust accordingly.