Abilities of the top teams at a regional?

[Ginger Power]

It may be a little early to accurately be able to predict this with any accuracy, but I was wondering what the general consensus of the top robots at a regional will be. What will the alliance captains look like/be capable of. What will 1st and 2nd round picks be capable of (obviously dependent upon what the alliance captain can do)? What will the robots be able to do? Will they specialize in assisting, shooting, catching etc.?

In my opinion the top 8 robots will mostly be composed of the robots that are the most proficient at putting the ball in the 10pt goal. However, I think a few of the top assisters will sneak in if they are able to overcome weaker alliance members in quals (assist points are the top tiebreaker after all) .

The top picks will most likely be a robots that are the fastest at transitioning the ball to the next robot. The top pick for an alliance captain that isn't a great shooter will likely be the best shooter available. Depending on what strategy the top teams want to go with the second pick will be the best remaining assister or best defensive robot that can still pass.

Just my ideas but I want to hear everybody else's opinion:D

[Abhishek R]

Applies for every year but I definitely think it will be more prevalent this year:

Teams will have to make up for their own weaknesses through their picks to create the best alliance, which is not necessarily the best 3 offensive bots at the regional.

[AllenGregoryIV]

I think this game more than any other can play out very differently than a lot of teams seem to be expecting.

There have been numerous shooters shown over the past three weeks. We all know it's possible to be accurate into the high goal and a lot of teams will build robots to do this. What we haven't seen is a robot to robot pass and catch over the truss. That extra 10 points could easily be what separates great alliances.

[MooreteP]

I think the 10 point goal may become an orphan this year.

The completion of a cycle with three assists, and the potential time cost of a missed 10 point goal with "Doggie Go Fetch", will make the 1 point goals very popular this year.

[dellagd]

I think the 10 point goal may become an orphan this year.

The completion of a cycle with three assists, and the potential time cost of a missed 10 point goal with "Doggie Go Fetch", will make the 1 point goals very popular this year.

That is, if you are actually concerned about missing your 10 point shot. From what I've seen, a confident 10 point shot is not something only the elites will be doing. If its just as quick to shoot it into the 10 points as it is to... push it into the 1, why not?

[DampRobot]

Top seeded teams will likely have three major qualities: an awesome intake, the ability to decently shoot for 10 and the truss, and luck with alliance pairings.

The teams that will be picked very early in alliance selection will have the ability to catch or pass over the truss.

All successful teams need to have a high level of strategic, alliance orientated play.

[MooreteP]

That is, if you are actually concerned about missing your 10 point shot. From what I've seen, a confident 10 point shot is not something only the elites will be doing. If its just as quick to shoot it into the 10 points as it is to... push it into the 1, why not?

Because, if you miss, you have to waste time retrieving the bouncing ball.

A goalie bot can create all sorts of trouble for the 10 point goal.
Most balls will be launched from a low height, so any robot in front of your shooter becomes a time vampire. No assist points until a goal is scored. No new cycle until that goal is scored.

[dellagd]

Because, if you miss, you have to waste time retrieving the bouncing ball.

A goalie bot can create all sorts of trouble for the 10 point goal.
Most balls will be launched from a low height, so any robot in front of your shooter becomes a time vampire. No assist points until a goal is scored. No new cycle until that goal is scored.

Well that's the point, don't shoot if you're know you'll miss. Same goes for the low goal. Defense can be played for any goal, so you better get around it if you'd like those assist points. I might even argue that the low goal may be easier to defend to since they are a very specific spot where the ball must enter as opposed to a whole wall of goal area that a defender would have to stop you from alining with, possibly within a quite large range of distances from the goal too.

Shooting from a large distance into the low goal seems more difficult than shooting large distance to the high goal, so you would probably be driving up to it. The defender knows where you're going (one you choose a goal), so they just have to plain get in your way.

Bottom line, defense will be there for any goal. Get around it if you want to score.


On another note, I think the coach will be much more critical this year too. This year as apposed to last year, just an OK match would be hard without good communication throughout the alliances (pre-match too).

[bEdhEd]

I think the best teams are the ones who not only can assist well during a match, but has a coach that communicates with the other coaches and drivers on their alliance so assists are done efficiently, so there is no time wasted chasing the ball on the field. The best teams will pre-plan their strategies clearly, either verbally or by drawings, and will stick to that strategy the entire match.

A team that can consistently rack up points by accurately scoring in the top goal and can do assists will do very well in the competition. A team that regularly scores in the bottom goal can do just as well, but they should make sure that as many assists possible were made before scoring, in order to compete with a team that does lots of assists AND high goal scoring.

Unless an alliance works really well together, I can't see catching being done too often, just like scoring the pyramid goal in 2013. It's a difficult bonus that isn't really worth the difficulty, especially when there are other things to do in a match that yield more points reliably and in less time.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Unless an alliance works really well together, I can't see catching being done too often, just like scoring the pyramid goal in 2013. It's a difficult bonus that isn't really worth the difficulty, especially when there are other things to do in a match that yield more points reliably and in less time.

I disagree, you already have to truss, how does catching waste time. The best alliances will without a doubt be catching the ball this year and it will be much less rare then the pyramid goal. It's too big of advantage to both save time and get points.

[JohnSchneider]

Unless an alliance works really well together, I can't see catching being done too often, just like scoring the pyramid goal in 2013. It's a difficult bonus that isn't really worth the difficulty, especially when there are other things to do in a match that yield more points reliably and in less time.

You have to retrieve the ball in some way after a truss shot anyways, so catching doesn't really add time if your partner and you are in sync. What have you discovered in the game that gives you more than 10 points in 0 seconds?

[MooreteP]

You have to retrieve the ball in some way after a truss shot anyways, so catching doesn't really add time if your partner and you are in sync. What have you discovered in the game that gives you more than 10 points in 0 seconds?

0 seconds? I don't quite follow. Maybe 1 second, and again, a missed catch could cost time, though the ball should bounce toward your goal.

[MooreteP]

Well that's the point, don't shoot if you're know you'll miss.

Uhhh, who would?

Well that's the point, don't shoot if you're know you'll miss.

On another note, I think the coach will be much more critical this year too. This year as apposed to last year, just an OK match would be hard without good communication throughout the alliances (pre-match too).

Agree on this, but until a pecking order is established through the rankings, I don't think you will find this working well. Too many chiefs, not enough Indians.

[magnets]

The top teams will be the ones who accurately know their strengths and weaknesses. If you think that you're great at picking up, then you waste an alliances time because your pickup doesn't work very well, then you won't be successful. If you do everything that you do very well, (maybe just catching from human player, herding into one point goal) you'll be picked, because your alliance partners know that they won't have to wait for you during an assist cycle.

[Abhishek R]

0 seconds? I don't quite follow. Maybe 1 second, and again, a missed catch could cost time, though the ball should bounce toward your goal.

If you truss the ball and don't catch it, you have to spend time chasing it down. The alternative is to catch the ball, as a result, you save time. Basically he means 0 seconds relative to the time you spend chasing down the ball (i.e if you spend 5 seconds trying to regather the ball when you could've just plucked it out of he air, effectively in net "0" seconds).

[mrnoble]

I count four times in a cycle when a ball is loose, starting with the inbound from the human player, and ending with a score shot. Even having a quick, close pass will only happen when there is little to no defense in a game with no protected zones. This doesn't count possible missed passes, missed shots, balls jostled free, and truss shots that aren't immediately caught or picked up.

I think the top teams will be the ones the ones that plan for loose balls and can quickly react with the fastest and most secure pickup.

[dchartley]

Almost all the shooters I've seen are very built low and could be blocked by a 5 ' tall robot. Our team decided to concentrate on maneuverability, ball handling and catching. With a 5' tall "glove" blocking short shooters should be easy.

Doug

[XaulZan11]

I disagree, you already have to truss, how does catching waste time. The best alliances will without a doubt be catching the ball this year and it will be much less rare then the pyramid goal. It's too big of advantage to both save time and get points.

Did I miss it in the rule book that says you MUST truss pass to complete a cycle? ;)

The fastest, safest way to complete is cycle is still forgoing the truss completely.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Did I miss it in the rule book that says you MUST truss pass to complete a cycle? ;)

The fastest, safest way to complete is cycle is still forgoing the truss completely.

When an alliance wins a regional without consistently trussing during cycles, I'll happily admit I was wrong. Nothing in the rules said you had to hang at the end of last years game, but there wasn't a single winning alliance that didn't have at least one robot consistently on the pyramid at the end of the match last year.

[TheMadCADer]

Almost all the shooters I've seen are very built low and could be blocked by a 5 ' tall robot. Our team decided to concentrate on maneuverability, ball handling and catching. With a 5' tall "glove" blocking short shooters should be easy.

Doug

This sort of plan on defense works well to a point. A well organized alliance will realize that they only get points once that ball is scored. The other two robots won't be just sitting around, they'll be playing counter-defense. I see each alliance at any one point in time having one robot with the ball, one robot playing counter-defense, and one robot on defense (switching to counter-defense at a moment's notice). This means that defenders will almost always be 1v2 or worse.

The part that will separate the good alliances from the bad will be how well they handle trading off these roles. Whoever is playing defense might need to go and possess the ball for an assist, leaving the other alliance with a free path to score. Good teams will minimize how much movement between zones they need to do.

This is the concern I have with a catcher/shot blocker. Those tasks would take place in different zones. Instead, I could see there being more value in blocking truss shots, since you wouldn't need to move zones and it still prevents a lot of points (at least delaying the 10 points from the Truss Score as well as delaying the whole cycle).

Still, I think the ideal catcher is the robot that also scores the ball after catching it, being the last assist in the cycle. Having an exchange in your scoring zone will probably be more dangerous than on the other side of the Truss since for most teams the scoring zone is the 'obvious' place to play defense.

[Bryce2471]

I Know this is a little off topic, but it's highly related. My team, like many, wants to be a powerful offensive bot and choose our alliance at our first district competition. So I've been speculating on what I think the best offensive powerhouses will be able to do.
I think it can be generalized into two factors:
1. The ability to maximize point output and work done for the the alliance by there partners.(Plays well with others)
2. The ability to score well for themselves in case of bad luck.

I think that most of the attributes that will help the best teams accomplish those things will be summarized by one scouting data point. Their autonomous.
In other words, I think there will be a strong correlation between offensive abilities, and autonomous score.

Curious what other people think of this idea.

[Jibri Wright]

I think its really easy to get an accurate shot in the high goal. The thing that's gonna really excel top tier teams is if they can still shoot accurately while having defense on them. This isn't just blocking a shot. An easy way to stop a team from scoring in the high goal is to simply RAM into them while they're shooting! Tank drives can easily be pushed sideways and mecanums are even worse! Not only this, but if a shooter only has one spot or one distance they can shoot from, a good defensive bot won't even let the shooter get near this spot! That's why I'm so skeptical as to how many shots an accurate shooter can in fact shoot. Heck, if you have a good defense bot on your alliance that completely shuts down a shooter that 'needs' a sweet spot, all you need to do is decimate in autonomous and you've won.

[Whippet]

Tank drives can easily be pushed sideways

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=125224

I would be very surprised to see this "easily" pushed around.

[Arpan]

Tank drives can easily be pushed sideways

Who's tank drives have you been dealing with lately? We've always had rather pushy robots but never been able to push other tank robots sideways.

[Woolly]

Who's tank drives have you been dealing with lately? We've always had rather pushy robots but never been able to push other tank robots sideways.

Pushing a tank drive robot sideways is possible, but it is much easier to turn a tank robot, considering most teams modify their tank drives to make them turn easier.

[DMike]

I think durability will play a bigger role this year. No safe zones or field obstructions, sounds like demolition derby. Are there any rules for un- sportsman like hits?

[Abhishek R]

I think durability will play a bigger role this year. No safe zones or field obstructions, sounds like demolition derby. Are there any rules for un- sportsman like hits?

As long as it's just bumper to bumper contact, there isn't anything like an unsportsmanlike hit. As a result, if there's a defender coming at you from downfield at 15 fps and they're headed your way...you best move to the side or build your robot sturdily. Shouldn't be too big of a problem.

[indubitably]

When an alliance wins a regional without consistently trussing during cycles, I'll happily admit I was wrong. Nothing in the rules said you had to hang at the end of last years game, but there wasn't a single winning alliance that didn't have at least one robot consistently on the pyramid at the end of the match last year.

Truss scoring has a much different strategic impact to the game than pyramid climbing did, no matter how high you chose to do it. It isn't a 5-10 sec way to add points at the end of a cycle, it is an easy to perform way to gain points during a cycle that has the potential to significantly reduce cycle time. We also don't know how defense is going to play out, if the offense doesn't have a catcher on the team, a defensive bot could bounce it right off themselves and across the field. I wouldn't chalk the truss shot up as being a given for any good alliance just yet, even though I personally think it will be very common.

[waialua359]

I think its really easy to get an accurate shot in the high goal. The thing that's gonna really excel top tier teams is if they can still shoot accurately while having defense on them.

This pretty much sums it up for us.
Everybody with all of the resource videos, CAD files, and shooter ideas provided, vendors that sell parts with lots to choose (more than any other year), and the relatively big target relative to the ball size........should be able to score or hurl shots over the truss with great success.

Can teams do it effectively with defense.

2014 reminds me of elements of 2006 (defense), 2008 (track ball) and 2010 (2 goals, 1 defender).
I say the best driver/coach/drivetrain combo will be highly successful.

We stumbled onto a lucky feature that 2 of our students experimented with.
The idea doesnt make our robot any better than what we are trying to achieve offensively. But it does help against the defense that will be there when we try to score.

[Jibri Wright]

Who's tank drives have you been dealing with lately? We've always had rather pushy robots but never been able to push other tank robots sideways.

I meant push as in turn. Tank drive can be turned sideways.

[Jibri Wright]

We stumbled onto a lucky feature that 2 of our students experimented with.
The idea doesnt make our robot any better than what we are trying to achieve offensively. But it does help against the defense that will be there when we try to score.

I think our team has the same idea as yours or at least a variation.:D

[apples000]

We stumbled onto a lucky feature that 2 of our students experimented with.
The idea doesnt make our robot any better than what we are trying to achieve offensively. But it does help against the defense that will be there when we try to score.

A "lucky feature" to help prevent defense when trying to score.... That sounds familiar :D

[who716]

One thing that is important every year but much more so this year is a great drive team. With only one ball in play efficiency is key and to be efficient and good drive team Is needed at points you will have an alliance in qualification that is of equal strength so everyone is getting the same amount of cycles and points.therfore the one that is going to win the round is the team that gets in the way of the other team without losing efficiency of your own cycle Therfore at the end of the game ou may sneak out another cycle while they can't

[pandamonium]

The Perfect Alliance.
Robot 1: Variable shot capable of accurately scoring 10, truss and a full court truss pass.
Robot 2: can expand to the full volume and catch shots off of the alliance wall.
Robot 3: Defense / Protect Robot 1 and 2/ trap the ball as Robot 1 acquires it to maximize assist points.

[Ginger Power]

The Perfect Alliance.
Robot 1: Variable shot capable of accurately scoring 10, truss and a full court truss pass.
Robot 2: can expand to the full volume and catch shots off of the alliance wall.
Robot 3: Defense / Protect Robot 1 and 2/ trap the ball as Robot 1 acquires it to maximize assist points.

I could see some variation of this setup winning Einstein. My only question is how common will full court Assisting robots be?

[z_beeblebrox]

My only question is how common will full court Assisting robots be?

Almost any robot with a long range high goal shooter, which I've been seeing a lot of on CD, could perform a full court pass.

[dodar]

The Perfect Alliance.
Robot 1: Variable shot capable of accurately scoring 10, truss and a full court truss pass.
Robot 2: can expand to the full volume and catch shots off of the alliance wall.
Robot 3: Defense / Protect Robot 1 and 2/ trap the ball as Robot 1 acquires it to maximize assist points.

I'd say a slight change to this will win Einstein:

Robots 1 and 2: They will be your robot 1
Robot 3: A combination of your robots 2 and 3.

The 1st touch robot and the 2nd/3rd touch robot will be the same style robot.(Would be 2nd touch if only 2 bots touch ball before shooting)

The 3rd alliance robot will be a defense/2nd assist bot.(Primarily defense unless otherwise needed)

[cglrcng]

I count four times in a cycle when a ball is loose, starting with the inbound from the human player, and ending with a score shot. Even having a quick, close pass will only happen when there is little to no defense in a game with no protected zones. This doesn't count possible missed passes, missed shots, balls jostled free, and truss shots that aren't immediately caught or picked up.

I think the top teams will be the ones the ones that plan for loose balls and can quickly react with the fastest and most secure pickup.


You might count inbounding from the human player as a loose ball...But, if one can catch, it won't be....That completely depends on individual robot designs, as does passing, catching, shooting, etc.. Those designed to catch, pass, pickup in emergencies, & shoot without the ball ever touching the floor could easily gang up and be a killer alliance team this year. I predict truss tossing/catching will get very interesting.

And before the season is out I'd bet a 3 ball feed to a single white zone hotshot robot in Auto will be completed and all 3 are scored High & Hot. Then to add insult to injury (or ease to perfection),...all three bots in the BORG Cooperative will take a spinning dance into the scoring zone to add another 15points to the mix.

[mrnoble]

You might count inbounding from the human player as a loose ball...But, if one can catch, it won't be.... .

"Loose", by which I meant, not firmly in the possession of any robot, or transitioning between robots, or transitioning from a robot's possession into a scoring target. These transitions could go smoothly... Or, they could not. I think many teams will take for granted that the techniques they attempted for pickup and delivery while prototyping or testing in an ideal environment won't work nearly so well when done while being defended against.

[cglrcng]

Almost any robot with a long range high goal shooter, which I've been seeing a lot of on CD, could perform a full court pass.

Full court shots...If only 2 bots play on an alliance, while the 3rd only plays a defensive role in the game and never is involved in an assist at all, 33% more cycles and completed scores, need to be acheived to tie the 3 bot team working fully together on complete scoring cycles.

2=40 Points Max and includes Truss 10, Catch 10, High Goal 10 + 2 Assists 10 X 6 Cycles=240 plus Auto / X3 Cycles=120 plus auto points.

3=60 Points Max / Truss 10, Catch 10, high Goal 10 + 3 Assists 30. X 4 Cycles=240 plus Auto / X 2 Cycles=180 plus auto points. (I'll take this 1 please!)

Penalty possibilities can be huge too though.

I'd personally go w/: Zone offense and zone defense while actually doing your specific job without fail will be key as agreed to ahead of time. Full court assisting (not full court shooting ala multi-game pcs points like frisbees), though will be rewarded big. And a reasoned rotation of zones, if all alliance members are capable in each zone, will help big keeping the alliance ready to receive the inbound immediately for the next cycle ASAP. I think there will be a lot of Patriotic Alliances....We are RED or BLUE...You play Red, I play White, You play Blue and we all work together in connected zones, nobody hogs the ball. And every cycle we complete all possible points per cycle. We play 1/3 less hard and a lot smarter....And Win Big -Together!

2:20 can seem like forever on the cycle end, though a short time in Auto.

My 2 cents is all. It will not be as boring a game as many seem to think. The wide open field helps.

[Chris is me]

I expect at least one regional winning alliance to feature just one scorer. One robot that just runs 20 point cycles quickly and repeatedly while the other two play defense. This will only happen at "weak" regionals.

This is the game for the 8th seed. An incredible advantage to form your alliance all at once. Lots of 8th seed alliances will feature three simple machines doing triple assist cycles with good teamwork. I'd say as many as a half dozen #8 seed winners.

Full court shots are going to be tried by many but result in more than a few early exits as miscues result in precious lost seconds. These aren't frisbees - 40 foot shots over the truss repeatably and quickly aren't happening.

Catching isn't quite suspension, but lots of teams will waste their time catching when it's faster to just truss, pickup, score.

Low goal will be seen a lot more than you think, particularly in low seeds going for fast triples.

Because of all of the team dynamics, I don't think the "best teams" at a regional will have consistent features. Good pickup, good drivers, good strategy is pretty much all they will have in common.

[gpetilli]

Full court shots are going to be tried by many but result in more than a few early exits as miscues result in precious lost seconds. These aren't frisbees - 40 foot shots over the truss repeatably and quickly aren't happening.



There will be NO full court scoring. Game section 3.1.4B says that to score:

"the ALLIANCE ROBOT last in contact with the BALL was entirely between the TRUSS and their ALLIANCE’S HIGH GOALS, and"

[Ginger Power]

There will be NO full court scoring. Game section 3.1.4B says that to score:

"the ALLIANCE ROBOT last in contact with the BALL was entirely between the TRUSS and their ALLIANCE’S HIGH GOALS, and"

We don't mean full court scoring in a sense that you put the ball in the goal from full court. We are saying full court assisting meaning that a robot launches the ball full court and another robot picks it up and scores.

[Whippet]

There will be NO full court scoring. Game section 3.1.4B says that to score:

"the ALLIANCE ROBOT last in contact with the BALL was entirely between the TRUSS and their ALLIANCE’S HIGH GOALS, and"

I'm pretty sure he was referring to full-court assisting, which is legal.

[Chris is me]

There will be NO full court scoring. Game section 3.1.4B says that to score:

"the ALLIANCE ROBOT last in contact with the BALL was entirely between the TRUSS and their ALLIANCE’S HIGH GOALS, and"

I said full court shooting, not full court scoring. I meant a shot from the inbounder, over the truss, into a catcher that is in it's own scoring range. I think this shot is a lot less likely to happen than some expect.

[Ginger Power]

I said full court shooting, not full court scoring. I meant a shot from the inbounder, over the truss, into a catcher that is in it's own scoring range. I think this shot is a lot less likely to happen than some expect.

There are ways to increase the likelihood of a catch :p

[Chris is me]

There are ways to increase the likelihood of a catch :p

Of course, but unlike 2013 neither the "roomba" nor the full court shooter is protected from contact defense. When you are shooting 40 feet, a short displacement from a hit can result in several feet of difference in trajectory.

[pandamonium]

Catching off of the wall is huge here. Get your dimensions as big as possible then sit about two feet from the wall. If the ball lands in front of you trap it for possession. Bouncing it off of the wall slows it down and often places it in a catchable position.

[gpetilli]

I said full court shooting, not full court scoring. I meant a shot from the inbounder, over the truss, into a catcher that is in it's own scoring range. I think this shot is a lot less likely to happen than some expect.

I agree a full court catch and assist is not going to be common. There are so many variables to manage for teams that have had very little practice time together. Not to mention, a ball launched with enough force to achieve full court is more likely to break things when it lands.

[Justin Shelley]

I really like playing defense no matter the game and this year makes me giggle with excitement over all the defense possibilities. I say a great strategy is win Auto and then just overwhelm your opponents with defense.

[Jibri Wright]

I really like playing defense no matter the game and this year makes me giggle with excitement over all the defense possibilities. I say a great strategy is win Auto and then just overwhelm your opponents with defense.

This is probably the best strategy to use to win all your elimination matches. I keep saying this and I'll keep saying it until we test it out and fail.

[bduddy]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that, at more than one regional, the very best teams will be mainly defensive robots. It's so much easier to stop an entire alliance from scoring in this game than it ever has been before, and any "powerhouse" teams that devote themselves to defense could get really, really good at it.

[cadandcookies]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that, at more than one regional, the very best teams will be mainly defensive robots. It's so much easier to stop an entire alliance from scoring in this game than it ever has been before, and any "powerhouse" teams that devote themselves to defense could get really, really good at it.

It depends on what your considerations for "best" are.

While I have no doubt that some very good teams will be playing solid defense this year, I sincerely doubt that they will have designed a robot specifically for that purpose.

Being successful in competition is a large deal about control-- during a match, over your robot, of the game piece, during elimination matches. Fairly consistently, very good teams are those that maximize control-- and defense is, by its very nature, something that the value cannot be controlled by-- your value to alliance is contingent on your opponents being good.

I can't wait to see what teams have come up with this year-- the strategic depth is almost as good as Ultimate Ascent, in my opinion.

I think the game on the field will be significantly different than the game people are planning their robots around.

[bduddy]

It depends on what your considerations for "best" are.

While I have no doubt that some very good teams will be playing solid defense this year, I sincerely doubt that they will have designed a robot specifically for that purpose.

Being successful in competition is a large deal about control-- during a match, over your robot, of the game piece, during elimination matches. Fairly consistently, very good teams are those that maximize control-- and defense is, by its very nature, something that the value cannot be controlled by-- your value to alliance is contingent on your opponents being good.

I can't wait to see what teams have come up with this year-- the strategic depth is almost as good as Ultimate Ascent, in my opinion.

I think the game on the field will be significantly different than the game people are planning their robots around.I disagree. I believe that, this year, the absolute best possible robot to have, in qualification and eliminations, is designed, built, and programmed to play excellent defense, with strategies developed to match. I'm not sure how many of those we will see, if any, because too many people and teams seem to think that defense is only a fallback solution; I hope we will, though.

[RonnieS]

I disagree. I believe that, this year, the absolute best possible robot to have, in qualification and eliminations, is designed, built, and programmed to play excellent defense, with strategies developed to match. I'm not sure how many of those we will see, if any, because too many people and teams seem to think that defense is only a fallback solution; I hope we will, though.

What is your definition of "excellent" defense? Yes, we will see some very good defensive robots that will have success but I can guarantee you that 1 V 1 the offense will always beat the good defense this year as long as there trajectory is above 5 feet and they can launch is half court...all's you have to do is sit at feeder station and throw it over truss. If the other robot is pure defense and cant score...well good luck trying to win. This is just my opinion and party theory.

[pfreivald]

Catching off of the wall is huge here. Get your dimensions as big as possible then sit about two feet from the wall. If the ball lands in front of you trap it for possession. Bouncing it off of the wall slows it down and often places it in a catchable position.

So, suppose a team was insightful enough to make sure that they've got something tall and easily damaged but also easy to replace on each corner of their robot, to push it right up to the 60" mark.

Say that same robot decides to bump bumpers with you while you're trying to catch a ball (off the wall or anywhere else) while expanded to full volume....

20" outside your frame perimeter -7" of bumpers = 13" inside their frame perimeter, in contact and causing damage = technical foul.

(Of course, the real place to play defense on a catch is on the robot doing the shooting.)

[AllenGregoryIV]

Even without worrying about damage. The defending robot has the advantage in nearly any rebounding situation since their goal isn't to get the ball just prevent you from getting it. That should be a far easier task.

[pandamonium]

Defense can win matches but I think it will create low assist points for both teams. For this reason defense robots will not have as good qualification rankings. It comes down to will defense bots get picked above another strong scorer?

[Justin Shelley]

Defense can win matches but I think it will create low assist points for both teams. For this reason defense robots will not have as good qualification rankings. It comes down to will defense bots get picked above another strong scorer?

Look at last year. Team 3284 was one of my defensive robots. 4wd with 4 cim 2 speed gearbox. They could score but not that great. In the Galileo divison they ranked 63 yet they were still picked by team 2169, 3rd ranked team, and went to finals, only loosing to the alliance who would win worlds. So yes i would say defense will get you picked :)

Also 3284 had a net integrated into their robot to block FCS so i would say a massive part of their design was pure defense which worked out great for them!

[Justin Shelley]

But this thread is wayyy of track.

To answer the op question I think that the abilities of the top teams at a regional (defining top teams at those seeded highest) will be scoring and pickup. If you are built just as a catching, assisting, or defending robot you will not be a high seed. In order to do good you have to have good alliance partners which is unlikely in Qualifications. So the picking robots will be able to score in high goal and pickup from floor.

Now the robots they will pick will be the catching, assisting, and defending robots.

I imagine that a common winning alliance will look like this.

Captain) High Goal Shot, Intake, and sometimes catching mechanism
First Pick) Intake, Truss Shot
Second Pick) Strong drivetrain/driveteam, intake, maybe shoots but better at Defense

Scouting is everything this year. Scouting has always been what wins championships but this year it is double as important!

just my 2cents

[JamesCH95]

I think the best defensive robots will have a catching mechanism, so that they don't have to let up on defense to drive over and get a ball from the inbounder. All they would have to do is catch the ball and spit it out towards the mid-field zone for their alliance partner to pick up.

I think this sort of robot will be a good pick for a strong ground loading and shooting robot, who will likely be an alliance captain.

[Edxu]

I personally think that if a robot is able to constantly interfere with the enemy alliance's ability to run cycles, they would be a great choice.

If you can delay cycles by 6 seconds every cycle, over 5 cycles the enemy alliance is doing 30 seconds of nothing.

In my opinion, a top-tier defensive robot at a regional would be able to get between their alliance zone and the enemy's goal zone within the timeframe that it takes for an alliance to pass, and then block the shot. This would also let the defending robot be part of the Assist, giving their alliance points.

in terms of offense, I think that a top-tier offensive robot should be able to score in high goal with high accuracy, as well as be able to work independently, should their alliance require it. Catching would also be nice for an offensive robot, because that would let them catch other robot's balls for additional points per cycle.

[waialua359]

I stand corrected. Blocking shots will be very very difficult.
Based on personal experience from recent testing.:)

[Ginger Power]

You don't have to block it. Just alter the flight of the ball enough to prevent it from scoring. Also would you mind posting pictures/videos of your blocking attempts?

[z_beeblebrox]

I stand corrected. Blocking shots will be very very difficult.
Based on personal experience from recent testing.:)

By blocking, I'm assuming you mean putting something in the path of the ball. Have you found ramming or pushing a shooting robot to be more effective?

[JohnSchneider]

I personally think that if a robot is able to constantly interfere with the enemy alliance's ability to run cycles, they would be a great choice.

If you can delay cycles by 6 seconds every cycle, over 5 cycles the enemy alliance is doing 30 seconds of nothing.

In my opinion, a top-tier defensive robot at a regional would be able to get between their alliance zone and the enemy's goal zone within the timeframe that it takes for an alliance to pass, and then block the shot. This would also let the defending robot be part of the Assist, giving their alliance points.

in terms of offense, I think that a top-tier offensive robot should be able to score in high goal with high accuracy, as well as be able to work independently, should their alliance require it. Catching would also be nice for an offensive robot, because that would let them catch other robot's balls for additional points per cycle.

Ditto.

[Racer26]

By blocking, I'm assuming you mean putting something in the path of the ball. Have you found ramming or pushing a shooting robot to be more effective?

From intuitive knowledge of many years in FRC?

Blocking a 24-25" diameter ball, aimed at a 25' wide by 37" high goal, using a pole of 6" maximum diameter is unlikely to be able to alter its trajectory enough to stop scoring. Unless you catch the ball dead center of its diameter, it will tend to roll off to one side or the other at approximately its original height, and still go through the goal. Additionally, the shooting robot (think TeamJVN sweet spot capable) simply rotates their drivebase a few degrees ~10-15 ft out from where you're at, and the ball misses you entirely.

Ramming or pushing a shooter is almost assured to be FAR more effective (though I'm still unconvinced of the ability to effectively detain a well designed shooter with a big sweet spot).

In my estimation, defense is going to be focussed on preventing the ball from GETTING to the shooter. Preventing the shooter from scoring is going to be hard.

[JohnFogarty]

From intuitive knowledge of many years in FRC?

Blocking a 24-25" diameter ball, aimed at a 25' wide by 37" high goal, using a pole of 6" maximum diameter is unlikely to be able to alter its trajectory enough to stop scoring. Unless you catch the ball dead center of its diameter, it will tend to roll off to one side or the other at approximately its original height, and still go through the goal. Additionally, the shooting robot (think TeamJVN sweet spot capable) simply rotates their drivebase a few degrees ~10-15 ft out from where you're at, and the ball misses you entirely.

Ramming or pushing a shooter is almost assured to be FAR more effective (though I'm still unconvinced of the ability to effectively detain a well designed shooter with a big sweet spot).

In my estimation, defense is going to be focussed on preventing the ball from GETTING to the shooter. Preventing the shooter from scoring is going to be hard.

I haven't tested all of my defensive driving strategies on all FRC drive bases, but I can assure you. You hit the right corner of a robot before they shoot. You will effectively knock their shot off course.

[pandamonium]

Remember stingers? I wonder if teams will drop a piece of metal with a hard to move surface when shooting.

[JohnFogarty]

I've never experienced a team that used one of those.

[JamesCH95]

Remember stingers? I wonder if teams will drop a piece of metal with a hard to move surface when shooting.

I've never experienced a team that used one of those.

Hrm....

http://i.imgur.com/kUhWapP.jpg

Not that we're shooting mind you...

[Jhultink]

World Champion alliances won't have the ball touch the ground

[pfreivald]

World Champion alliances won't have the ball touch the ground

QFT--or at least, touch the ground very little.

[Racer26]

I haven't tested all of my defensive driving strategies on all FRC drive bases, but I can assure you. You hit the right corner of a robot before they shoot. You will effectively knock their shot off course.

Off its intended course, sure, but for robots with ~10ft+ long sweet spots? A few degrees will not make their shot miss. You're going to need to spin them 30+ degrees I would estimate in order to make a shot miss. Additionally, you're assuming they have to do any fancy lining up to make the shot in the first place.

I can assure you that many robots will have such generous shooting areas that they need not even stop moving to make their shot. Can you hit a moving target at the exact moment they're going to try to release the ball? Maybe, but more often than not they'll outmanoeuvre you, get free of you for a second or two and get the shot off. Since you can only react to them after you've observed their movement, you're going to be slower.

In FRC, especially in recent times, the best defense is a really good offence.

[Abhishek R]

I keep seeing similarities to soccer in this year's game. You're less likely to stop a forward from scoring onces he's in the box (i.e zone closest to goal) unless you have a goalie, but you're much more likely to stop the ball as the team tries to advance it up the pitch. In FRC, this relates to the movement of the ball up the field - the center white zone is the spot for defense, and especially as balls come down from truss shots.

Another thing to note - if an alliance opts to shut an opposing team down by playing man to man defense, you again play it like soccer: you draw the defender to follow you wherever you go. What does this go? Well if the defender is doing their job right, he should be stuck to the offensive threat, meaning there is now open space SOMEWHERE ELSE on the field. You can either play the ball into the space for your offensive bot to breakaway from the defender in a '2nd gear sprint' or one of the other bots can rush in and score. You would only get two assists max in case of the second option, but at least your cycles aren't getting bogged down and you're still scoring.

[JohnFogarty]

I keep seeing similarities to soccer in this year's game.

Except you can't really play defense on the ball itself outside of the goalie zone.

[Abhishek R]

Except you can't really play defense on the ball itself outside of the goalie zone.

Why not?

Until alliances become proficient enough to keep the ball off the ground, I don't see why any opposing bot can't just ram the ball in some random direction.

[JohnFogarty]

An ALLIANCE may not POSSESS their opponent’s BALLS. The following criteria define POSSESSION :

“carrying” (moving while supporting BALLS in or on the ROBOT),
“herding” (repeated pushing or bumping),
“launching” (impelling BALLS to a desired location or direction via a MECHANISM in motion relative to the ROBOT), or
“trapping” (overt isolation or holding one or more BALLS against a FIELD element or ROBOT in an attempt to shield them).

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL per instance. If extended, another TECHNICAL FOUL. If strategic, RED CARD for the ALLIANCE.


Examples of BALL interaction that are not POSSESSION are

A. “bulldozing” (inadvertently coming in contact with BALLS that happen to be in the path of the ROBOT as it moves about the FIELD) and

B. “deflecting” (a single hit to or being hit by a BALL that bounces or rolls off the ROBOT).

A BALL that becomes unintentionally lodged on a ROBOT will be considered POSSESSED by the ROBOT. It is important to design your ROBOT so that it is impossible to inadvertently or intentionally POSSESS an opponent’s BALL.

That wouldn't be inadvertent bulldozing would it.

[bduddy]

In FRC, especially in recent times, the best defense is a really good offence.But this game is not like "recent times" - not at all. In most FRC games, even if you completely shut down one robot on an alliance, the other two can still collect tons of game pieces and outscore you. In 2014, there is only one game piece. Knock it away, or stop the robot holding it, and the other alliance is not scoring, at all. If you can play effective defense with 1 robot, or even with 2 robots, you have the advantage.

[Abhishek R]

That wouldn't be inadvertent bulldozing would it.

It would be intentional bulldozing, but I don't think that counts as posession of the opposing alliance ball. Just ramming it as you drive along the field is not 'carrying' , not 'herding' becauses it's not repeated, not 'launching' because it's not via mechanism in relation to robot, and not 'trapping' because once you hit it you're gone, you're not shielding it.

[wireties]

I think is better to play defense against the bot than the ball and not take chances on a penalty. If you think about it preventing a robot from passing or receiving in the intended direction accomplishes much the same purpose as deflecting the ball.

I think this year will emphasis the role of a "guard" more so than previous years. The 3rd robot can play a role "guarding" a pass between robots 1 & 2 and so on. And then robots 1 & 2 guarding robot 3 while is shoots/scores. It is possible to productively play total offense.

It will be interesting to watch how different strategies evolve in the early weeks.

[bduddy]

That wouldn't be inadvertent bulldozing would it.

“launching” (impelling BALLS to a desired location or direction via a MECHANISM in motion relative to the ROBOT), Note the italicized part, which was added in a team update. You can launch opposing balls in any desire direction as long as you don't use a moving part to do it.

[JohnFogarty]

The entire robot could be considered a moving "part" to some interpreters.

[wireties]

Or make the mistake of hitting the ball a couple times in quick succession and having a referee interpret (incorrectly or not) the actions as herding. That is a big ball and there are possibly several robots in close proximity.

I'm not saying this is so - just that playing the robot, as a rule, might keep drivers from inadvertent penalties.

[waialua359]

Remember stingers? I wonder if teams will drop a piece of metal with a hard to move surface when shooting.

If a team has to do this in order to ensure a clean shot.............well honestly, that's taking too long to make a shot.

[Pault]

The entire robot could be considered a moving "part" to some interpreters.

Unless these interpreters managed to break the laws of physics, I think they might have a tough time arguing that the robot is in motion relative to the robot.

[bduddy]

^ That would be taking relativity to a whole new level...

[Abhishek R]

This probably falls under the category of deflecting, since it's a single hit to the ball.

[gpetilli]

The entire robot could be considered a moving "part" to some interpreters.

While the robot is indeed a moving part, it is not moving with respect to itself. I personally think a single clean hit would be legal "deflecting" but I would be concerned about G11 - "intentionally ejecting" the ball from game-play.