View Full Version : Week 1 Analysis
Are there any pictures of your robot anywhere?
I don't think there are pictures online yet, but you can watch us play at palmetto! Youtube channel: FIRST3824
I'll talk to our business team and we should be getting pictures up soon on our website!
Ian, I'd LOVE to see this data run on the Centerline eliminations. I can't say for 100% certainty, but I'm not sure if the winning alliance beat their opponents on straight score even once. Can someone point me in the direction of the centerline elim data with penalties showing?
The winning alliance won 3 of their 6 matches on "straight score" (both SF matches and one finals match).
Here's the data you're looking for: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/frcspy.php?events=MICEN
Ian, I'd LOVE to see this data run on the Centerline eliminations.
Here's the Twitter data. As usual though, it's incomplete.
PayneTrain
02-03-2014, 16:39
From the wiki on 6061 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6061_aluminium_alloy) aluminum:
"6061 is highly weldable, for example using tungsten inert gas welding (TIG) or metal inert gas welding (MIG). Typically, after welding, the properties near the weld are those of 6061-O, a loss of strength of around 80%. The material can be re-heat-treated to restore -T4 or -T6 temper for the whole piece. After welding, the material can naturally age and restore some of its strength as well. Nevertheless, the Alcoa Structural Handbook recommends the design strength of the material adjacent to the weld to be taken as 11,000 psi without proper heat treatment after the weld."
That compares to 35ksi yield strength of properly heat treated 6061-T6.
Teams that use welded aluminum construction need to realize that your welded joints are now incredibly weak. And that's if the welding has been done with perfect technique (certified welder with years of experience). High school grade workmanship will be way worse.
I believe the welds were on 6063 aluminum alloy which I believe gives us a loss of around 30%. Regardless, that's the least of our worries on drive base. No worries though, we'll be back in Virginia.
Tom Line
02-03-2014, 16:39
Here's the Twitter data. As usual though, it's incomplete.
Thank you ether. Am I reading this correctly? Are rfpts and bfpts foul points, rhpts and bhpts hybrid (auto), and rtpts and btpts teleop?
If so, 25% of the points scored in the elims were fouls.
Brandon_L
02-03-2014, 16:43
At the MAR events it looks like refs are pausing matches in the middle of teleop to discuss and assess penalties and assists...?
Yes, that is the case. Its a mix of that, and balls rolling out of the field and volunteers not knowing what to do with them, wasting valuable match time asking a ref what to do/just standing there.
At least at Hatboro, matches were being paused quite a bit. With a game like this, I think its a good thing to get it right instead of just letting the alliance go, unable to score.
Again though, Why can't we just insert the balls where they left the field?? Its much simpler then having to track down the nearest HP and run halfway across the field.
BALLS that are ejected from gameplay during a MATCH will be delivered to the closest HUMAN PLAYER of that BALL’S ALLIANCE by event staff at the next safe opportunity. This includes BALLS that go in GOALS but don’t meet the criteria to be considered SCORED.
This is silly and wastes time leaving an entire alliance with no way of advancing their score.
jlmcmchl
02-03-2014, 16:48
Thank you ether. Am I reading this correctly? Are rfpts and bfpts foul points, rhpts and bhpts hybrid (auto), and rtpts and btpts teleop?
If so, 25% of the points scored in the elims were fouls.
Also according to the data, only 3 match outcomes were decided by foul points.
#1, 7, 8. So, QF 1-1, 3-2 and 4-2.
Another note: .25 of red alliance's points were penalties (260 pts), while .29 of blue alliance's points were penalties (370 pts), almost 50% more penalty points than red recieved.
Additionally, the proportion of blue's penalty points to red's teleop/hybrid points is .47, and for the other alliance is .29. Higher-numbered alliances seem to have played much cleaner this week.
Yes, that is the case. Its a mix of that, and balls rolling out of the field and volunteers not knowing what to do with them, wasting valuable match time asking a ref what to do/just standing there.
At least at Hatboro, matches were being paused quite a bit. With a game like this, I think its a good thing to get it right instead of just letting the alliance go, unable to score.
Again though, Why can't we just insert the balls where they left the field?? Its much simpler then having to track down the nearest HP and run halfway across the field.
This is silly and wastes time leaving an entire alliance with no way of advancing their score.It is possible that some robots may not be able to pick balls off the floor; the rules as written make that an entirely viable strategy.
Also according to the data, only 3 match outcomes were decided by foul points.
#1, 7, 8. So, QF 1-1, 3-2 and 4-2.
Another note: .25 of red alliance's points were penalties (260 pts), while .29 of blue alliance's points were penalties (370 pts), almost 50% more penalty points than red. I'll let you all make your own judgement from that.
Qf1-1 qf 1-2 qf 3-2 qf 4-2 and finals match 2 were won by penalities.
Also according to the data, only 3 match outcomes were decided by foul points.
According to the Twitter data as of today at 3:54pmET (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1351772&postcount=2), foul points affected the outcome of 87 of 693 Qual matches, and 13 of 127 Elim matches so far for all Events in Week1.
PayneTrain
02-03-2014, 17:11
It is possible that some robots may not be able to pick balls off the floor; the rules as written make that an entirely viable strategy.
Other entirely viable strategies may include:
-Assists being attributed within the same century they occur
-The pedestals lighting up prior to the heat death of the universe
-Dead Ball cards being enforced better than county ordinances in the Old West
-Real time scoring functioning better than square wheels
At what point would FIRST decide to make changes to rules that may affect strategies of a very select few in order to better administer the game they designed? I can't answer that question.
Brandon_L
02-03-2014, 17:15
It is possible that some robots may not be able to pick balls off the floor; the rules as written make that an entirely viable strategy.
What are the chances of having 3/3 robots that can't pick up from the floor?
And even then, you can still push it into the 1pt goal.
JohnFogarty
02-03-2014, 17:45
I'm actually somewhat confused about all these HP fouls....that never happened in the matches that 4901 played in at Palmetto.
apples000
02-03-2014, 17:52
Other entirely viable strategies may include:
-Assists being attributed within the same century they occur
-The pedestals lighting up prior to the heat death of the universe
-Dead Ball cards being enforced better than an anti-robbery police unit in the Old West
-Real time scoring functioning better than square wheels
At what point would FIRST decide to make changes to rules that may affect strategies of a very select few in order to better administer the game they designed? I can't answer that question.
This is the best post I've read all week.
The game is, IMO, broken because of the overused penalties, delayed scoring, incorrect scoring, lack of rule knowledge by referees, 2003-style defense gameplay and obscure field issues. Anything they can do to make the game "less broken" is good.
There's weird field stuff happening too. I've watched goofy timing display stuff on the webcasts, as well as delays between when a ball is scored and the assist lights go off and pedestal lights go on. Also, I've seen a few more timing issues with the hot goals (8 seconds left, 2 seconds right). Does anybody know how they're scoring these?
At Central Illinois, the refs are not calling G3 when teams lose their bumpers. Considering it should be a foul and disabling the robot, this is a pretty big deal.
Losing a bumper falls under the following.
G20
ROBOTS must be in compliance with Section 4.6: BUMPER Rules throughout the MATCH.
Violation: DISABLED
Hopefully FIRST fixes the bug that does not allow the head ref to disable from his scoring tablet as currently he has to run to the driver station to e-stop (disable) the robot.
piersklein
02-03-2014, 17:59
All this hype over aggressive defense this year is astounding. How did so many teams not anticipate this aspect of the game? This is especially important when some teams build weighted chassis battering rams as robots. I know my team wont have a problem, our entire robot is double extrusion and welded steel ::ouch:: ;)
orangemoore
02-03-2014, 18:03
All this hype over aggressive defense this year is astounding. How did so many teams not anticipate this aspect of the game? This is especially important when some teams build weighted chassis battering rams as robots. I know my team wont have a problem, our entire robot is double extrusion and welded steel ::ouch:: ;)
I know that my team took a look at the game and saw that defense was going to be important but, the amount of defense and harshness was completely unexpected. I did not foresee many robot running almost full speed at each other as the main form of defense that there would be.
Abhishek R
02-03-2014, 18:22
Other entirely viable strategies may include:
-Assists being attributed within the same century they occur
-The pedestals lighting up prior to the heat death of the universe
-Dead Ball cards being enforced better than an anti-robbery police unit in the Old West
-Real time scoring functioning better than square wheels
Pretty accurate summary. I would add autonomous hot goals.
Also, I've heard the referee data input stations are time consuming to navigate thereby causing massive delays in attributing assist, fouls, and scores.
Steven Donow
02-03-2014, 18:23
At the MAR events it looks like refs are pausing matches in the middle of teleop to discuss and assess penalties and assists...?
Jared-
Assuming you're talking about Mt. Olive, the incident involved a match stopped out of safety concerns (I'm almost certain based off the timestamp of a picture I have of why-it'll be posted to CD-media soon). For a short period of time, the match was going to be resumed, hence why the fouls that would be incurred were being discussed. Assists were never a question in the event I believe you're talking of. Eventually, it was determined the match would be reset.
Overall, it was a hectic game for week one. Being that the last 4 games have had some form of a protected zone, teams did not expect the defense that happened.
The biggest issue to me is that field crew/reset is a position this year that doesn't require any sort of game knowledge or training. I have more of an issue with that than Refs having to keep track of posessions* and usual ref stuff; it's just too much to add on ensuring field reset does the right thing.
*I'm differentiating posessions from assists.
Canon reeves
02-03-2014, 18:30
I didn't attend a week 1 regional, and I have read quite a bit about the damage caused and rough defense, but with this in mind, how did this years kitbot hold up? The frame is definitely weaker than last years so I wasn't sure how it would do.
pfreivald
02-03-2014, 18:30
I know that my team took a look at the game and saw that defense was going to be important but, the amount of defense and harshness was completely unexpected.
Not by anybody I talked to. Maybe this is a matter of experience, but wide open field + no safe zones = insane collisions.
Pretty accurate summary. I would add autonomous hot goals.
Also, I've heard the referee data input stations are time consuming to navigate thereby causing massive delays in attributing assist, fouls, and scores.Although I haven't actually used one, they have different modes for scorekeeping and penalties, which could certainly cause some delays.
Caleb Sykes
02-03-2014, 18:35
I think that an appreciable portion (but certainly not all) of the "missed assists" that teams are complaining about is due to the very definition of ASSIST. In the heat of the match, it is easy to forget that robots must be in unique zones to get the ASSIST. This distinction never has an effect on single assists and rarely (if ever) has any effect on double assists. However, it takes a conscious effort by the alliance to achieve the triple assist.
Remember everyone POSSESSION =/= ASSIST.
Sparky3D
02-03-2014, 18:41
All this hype over aggressive defense this year is astounding. How did so many teams not anticipate this aspect of the game? This is especially important when some teams build weighted chassis battering rams as robots. I know my team wont have a problem, our entire robot is double extrusion and welded steel ::ouch:: ;)
I was expecting a ton of defense, but I was expecting "typical" FRC defense: getting rammed by an opponent's bumpers, an opponent getting in the way/pushing you around, opponents using arms to block/deflect shots. What I wasn't expecting was teams using their intakes as battering rams and hitting an opponent at high speed with them to try to dislodge a ball (without fouls being called), or 5 robots being tipped over during 3 finals matches. There is a difference between rough and violent, and some of the matches are really starting to push that line.
I didn't see any robots tipped at GTRW, despite 1310 coming close a couple of times. I would guess that this is an artifact of the game generating mostly low-CG designs.
I don't have a problem with whats being called a foul or a tech foul, but I do a have a problem when refs are calling such a small amount of them.
I feel as though there should be a ref watching each individual robot for fouls.
JohnSchneider
02-03-2014, 18:58
I don't have a problem with whats being called a foul or a tech foul, but I do a have a problem when refs are calling such a small amount of them.
I feel as though there should be a ref watching each individual robot for fouls.
How would you avoid mutual cause fouls being double called?
Where would you get the volunteers?
jeremylee
02-03-2014, 19:03
I didn't attend a week 1 regional, and I have read quite a bit about the damage caused and rough defense, but with this in mind, how did this years kitbot hold up? The frame is definitely weaker than last years so I wasn't sure how it would do.
Ours appears to have held up really well in the first regional with light re-reinforcements such as L plates connecting the inner/outer rails similar to am-2794 and some diagonal supports in the inner 4 corners. We have a 6 cim 2 speed installed and played a lot of defense, no major issues seen so far. Our biggest struggle with kit bot has been mounting bumpers. I'd keep some spare parts around just in case though.
How would you avoid mutual cause fouls being double called?
Where would you get the volunteers?
I realize that that getting volunteers is an issue. The refs right now are trying their best to stay on top of all the fouls along with other aspects of the game.
But with that said, I would rather a foul be double called and cleared up by a coach who was keeping track of fouls, than the foul never getting called.
PayneTrain
02-03-2014, 19:23
I realize that that getting volunteers is an issue. The refs right now are trying their best to stay on top of all the fouls along with other aspects of the game.
But with that said, I would rather a foul be double called and cleared up by a coach who was keeping track of fouls, than the foul never getting called.
As a coach, I have probably 3,000,000 more things to do than look out for multiple simultaneous flag waving while managing my team and alliance. I don't have 7 sets of eyes to watch all of the referees you want to add. There hasn't been a problem with foul tracking in the 5 referee system. When you add in score management to penalty oversight, it's been getting hairy.
Abhishek R
02-03-2014, 19:24
This has already been said, but I'll say it again from first-hand experience: scoring in autonomous is of extremely high importance. Especially if you face a good/heavy defensive team, if you miss your auto shots it will take you half the match to get the auto balls in the goals before you can start cycling.
Also...make sure your autonomous balls don't collide midair...
Akash Shah
02-03-2014, 19:32
I was expecting a ton of defense, but I was expecting "typical" FRC defense: getting rammed by an opponent's bumpers, an opponent getting in the way/pushing you around, opponents using arms to block/deflect shots. What I wasn't expecting was teams using their intakes as battering rams and hitting an opponent at high speed with them to try to dislodge a ball (without fouls being called), or 5 robots being tipped over during 3 finals matches. There is a difference between rough and violent, and some of the matches are really starting to push that line.
I was thinking the same way. I did not expect it to be like battle bots. Even though we did make it to the semi finals at Hatboro-Horsham District Event, we had a terrible experience with violent defense with our Robot breaking every match and fowls not being called when it should be. The qualification matches were all just ramming but the eliminations did calm down.
Akash Shah
02-03-2014, 19:35
During our time at our first competition, we broke several things such as very expensive pneumatic cylinders, pickup system, and bearings from other robots ramming into us and using there pickup as an attack
During our time at our first competition, we broke several things such as very expensive pneumatic cylinders, pickup system, and bearings from other robots ramming into us and using there pickup as an attack
Watched you carrying your bot, like a Greek Hero fallen on the field of battle. It was inspiring. Congrats on your awards today, by the way!
We made a weird choice this year, and decided that minimal weight, rather than the 120 lbs, was ideal. We not only felt like moving quickly (to get away from defense and collisions) was the way to go, but that having more mass would make it more likely that we would absorb collisions, rather than bounce away from them.
Even so, we might be replacing some of our frame tubing with thicker stuff, depending on how early rounds go in Utah. Here's hoping that things smooth out before then...
I can't be the only one that hearkens from the olden days of FRC (my rookie year was 2003). I like this return to the violent defense of yesteryear. Intentionally breaking robots should still be a no-no.
I took one look at this years game and immediately knew violent defense was going to be a thing, and consequently ROBOTs (and especially MECHANISMs that extend beyond the FRAME PERIMETER) would need to be built to withstand a beating. With BUMPERs nowadays though, you don't see nearly as much in the way of bent frames like you used to back in 03/04.
4343 ran an AM14U kit chassis with some added stiffening measures through 14 matches of rough play this weekend at GTRW and it seems to have held up just fine.
I suspect many of the elites tested the robustness of their intakes by crashing their Ultimate Ascent bot (or another past robot) into it at full speed. I haven't seen any of the stronger teams have an intake I would consider 'fragile'.
pfreivald
02-03-2014, 20:01
With BUMPERs nowadays though, you don't see nearly as much in the way of bent frames like you used to back in 03/04.
In 2001/2002, we (now-defunct 827) had a welded box steel frame, because you'd have been crazy not to!
Blackphantom91
02-03-2014, 20:11
Week 1 analysis from a CSA
1. This game is the roughest game I have ever been apart of. (The carnage that is imposed on robots is quite different than recent years of FRC).
2. Lots and lots of CRIO reboots due to impact. (check all your connections on Thursday and make sure they have slack,slack and are tightly in.) Tons of teams lost comms after a hit by one, two, or even three robots. Flakey connections will not cut it this year. It can be the difference between a loss or win quite literally because you are rebooting for at least 30 secs of the match.
3. If you get into a pushing match with 6 cims behind you may trip a breaker so be weary of that.
Robot/Game analysis.
1. Penalties need to be lessened and rules hopefully should be uniform from tournament to tournament.(Matches decided by penalties always taste bad.) The amount of discrepancy between tournaments is staggering this year, but fixable in the long run of weeks.
2. The refs have the hardest job in FRC this year. They have to take care of at least three different actions while trying to make sure that robots are not committing fouls. This is just too much on them this year. I hope to see this changed so that they can make the right calls. (aka more personnel to help)
3. I for the first time do not envy anyone playing in districts or 3 regionals this year. The amount of punishment I thought the robots took last year was incredible. At this point in the game the amount of hard hits and robots falling apart is way more than I would have ever imaged for only the first week of competition. Many teams play at least 2 or more events before championships I saw great teams fall apart in the final rounds of eliminations due to the nature of the game. If this state of play keeps up they may not have much left by State or even world championships.
4. The game forces even the best scorers to actively play defence between each transfer of the ball. This allows for an almost seamless transfer of control and play. That being said, this is where the majority of the problems start between congestion, guarding, penalties, and just straight up hard defence. After watching the shut down D that was played when 188 had a chance to to win by 610 was smart. It's easy to get stuck in the mode of score, score, score.
Something I love about this game when teams work together to pull a plan off. That takes a ton of moxie and coordination.
Question: how do your think they fix the pedistool problem? That one makes me the most uneasy.
TL:DR
All in all teams be safe out there. Do what you can to ensure your robot will survive this current game.
In 2001/2002, we (now-defunct 827) had a welded box steel frame, because you'd have been crazy not to!
In 03, 1075s frame was 1.5" 80/20 type extrusion. We had 4" pool noodles covering 3 sides.
In 04, it was a TIG welded 1" box tube with 1/8" walls. In 04 at the Wonderland invitational, which we won (thanks 1241, 1114), we took a full speed frame to frame collision in auto that bent the frame by about 2" until it touched our wheel. A few minutes with a sawzall to remove the offending piece of frame (it happened to be part of our ball herder and not a necessary structural piece) and we were back in business.
Zuelu562
02-03-2014, 20:54
As a queuer, I didn't get to see ALL of the carnage and craziness that was going on, but boy did I sure hear about it. Talking to the GSDE refs at Lunch on Saturday, even they were saying they NEED 8 Refs (there are 6 including Head Ref), the additional 2 refs solely watching for penalties or scores, with the current team handling the other.
This game has so much potential when played at high levels if some things are just cleared up, like G40, the bar (whether fixed or left as is), among others.
Wenbin Li
02-03-2014, 20:57
Week One competitions was fun but I have a couple questions on rule?
Are G28 and G29 going to be enforce better at Week two competitions?
Is there anyway to challenge any calls right after a match?
Are refs going to step up their fouls?
Battle-bots?
Comments; FRC 4954 have broke 2 pistons, a pick up system, and multiple barring. We were a shooter and multiple Week One robots that had fast drivetrains and the uncompleted scorers play very physical defense on us. This feels like battle-bots.
During our time at our first competition, we broke several things such as very expensive pneumatic cylinders, pickup system, and bearings from other robots ramming into us and using there pickup as an attack
Thanks for choosing us as part of your alliance today. Our threesome put up a great fight and we were lucky to not suffer the kind of damages you guys did. Did it seem like our alliance was playing in the most physical elimination matches of the day? The semi-finals against 341 and 2590 were rough!
I know our team's not located too close to yours, but next time we're at a competition together and you need a hand, definitely let us know! I hope you can get that stuff repaired in the next few weeks. Your team and 5113 are going to have great rookie seasons! Best of luck at Clifton!
Week One competitions was fun but I have a couple questions on rule?
Is there anyway to challenge any calls right after a match?
There is a question box for any calls that coaches only can contest. The coach usually has to go there right after a match though. Knowing the rules is incredibly important.
Wenbin Li
02-03-2014, 21:32
Doing our competitions at Hatboro-Horsham, all defensive robots violated rules G28 and G29. Are the refs going to call that during the next competition. G29 says that robot alliances can not pin any robots for more than 5 seconds and "a robot is considered pinned until the ROBOTS have separated by at lest six feet". Also the pinning robot has to wait 3 seconds to pin again. A lot of scorers was pinned over 5 seconds and the pinner did not get out of the 6 six radius. G28 explains even though there is a part that a robot can bring out to 20 inches but that "thing" cannot damage a robot part that is inside the frame.
Richard Wallace
02-03-2014, 21:33
There is a question box for any calls that coaches only can contest. The coach usually has to go there right after a match though. Knowing the rules is incredibly important.
Knowing rule T13 is important. The person in the question box must be a pre-college student, wearing a drive team badge -- not necessarily the coach. Definitely not the coach, if that person is not a pre-college student.
PayneTrain
02-03-2014, 21:34
There is a question box for any calls that coaches only can contest. The coach usually has to go there right after a match though. Knowing the rules is incredibly important.
Just to be clear, it has to be a pre-college student member of the team, not just any coach. However, the question box is there for a reason: referees want to make sure everyone has an understanding on the rules. I know the community is hoping for a sweeping update this week, but regardless, remember to work with game officials this season even moreso than in the past to make sure the game is being administered as cleanly and effectively as possible.
Steven Donow
02-03-2014, 21:40
There is a question box for any calls that coaches only can contest. The coach usually has to go there right after a match though. Knowing the rules is incredibly important.
This is incorrect. It does not have to be the coach, but it can be any PRE-COLLEGE/STUDENT team member, as long as they have a coach or driver badge
team222badbrad
02-03-2014, 21:48
At the MAR events it looks like refs are pausing matches in the middle of teleop to discuss and assess penalties and assists...?
I can't speak to the specifics of how it happened since I didn't see it happen, but 1403 (our alliance partner) became entangled with 1676 and 1279 (our opponents) about halfway into the match.
The match was stopped mysteriously and the ref's grouped together for quite some time near the entangled robots.
Once the discussion was over it was decided that the match would resume.
I have never once heard or seen a match being stopped for any reason the refs decide or resumed. If it was a safety issue a G3 probably should have been called on all participating robots.
We then proceeded to question the resuming of the stopped match.
It was then debated for sometime of what should be done and it was eventually decided that it would be restarted and not resumed...
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3824/12894810443_869a834be1_c.jpg
Another interesting item was that on Saturday drivers were told at the drivers meeting that gloves were required and fouls would be given for NOT using them during field robot loading/unloading. I still haven't found that rule. I do not know if any were assessed, but we didn't attempt to find out. We normally use them anyway.
Lil' Lavery
02-03-2014, 21:52
The head ref at Hatboro would frequently pause matches to fix podium issues, then resume them. It happened about every two or three matches.
Christopher149
02-03-2014, 21:54
Another interesting item was that on Saturday drivers were told at the drivers meeting that gloves were required and fouls would be given for NOT using them during field robot loading/unloading. I still haven't found that rule. I do not know if any were assessed, but we didn't attempt to find out. We normally use them anyway.
Looking at the manual, the only instance of "glove" is in the Admin section:
At events, the pure anticipation and excitement can sometimes overshadow common sense and safety fundamentals. One safety area teams sometimes overlook is the need to wear appropriate clothing when working or being around the robots. In addition to the ANSI-approved, UL-listed, or CSA rated safety glasses required for eye protection, FIRST highly recommends that team members and mentors:
Refrain from wearing dangling jewelry or loose, baggy clothing near the robots;
Tie back long hair so that it will not get caught in the robot or other machinery; and
Wear gloves to protect hands and fingers when handling the robot or the robot crate; finger injuries are one of the most common injuries at events!
Noting that "recommends" =/= "requires"
Craig Roys
02-03-2014, 21:55
All this hype over aggressive defense this year is astounding. How did so many teams not anticipate this aspect of the game? This is especially important when some teams build weighted chassis battering rams as robots. I know my team wont have a problem, our entire robot is double extrusion and welded steel ::ouch:: ;)
It's not the defense that's the problem. We built our intake arms to be flexible to withstand being hit and we brought lots of spares and built them so they are a relatively easy swap. The problem is the way the game is being called. We expected to get hit and have our intake broken...we did not expect that if we were sitting still to shoot a ball and another team rams into us and breaks our intake (they initiated and caused the contact) that WE would be assessed a 50 pt technical foul for contact in the bumper zone. That's only one of a number of examples of fouls being called on the team being hit (not just our team). I'm not sure why G14 is not being enforced...many penalties I saw were the result of a defending team forcing the offensive team into a penalty.
Just to be clear...I'm not blaming the refs. I agree with the sentiments of many others in that they have WAY too much to try to do to possibly watch everything that's happening. I appreciate the job the refs have to do and I know that they are trying the best they can in a very difficult job this year. Separate scorers would help which would allow the refs to focus more on what the robots are doing. I do think that technical fouls are much too large for the amount they are being called.
team222badbrad
02-03-2014, 21:55
The head ref at Hatboro would frequently pause matches to fix podium issues, then resume them. It happened about every two or three matches.
Do you mean the pedestal?
What were the reasons for fixing it? Did they have to change the light bulb? :-)
Jay O'Donnell
02-03-2014, 21:56
The head ref at Hatboro would frequently pause matches to fix podium issues, then resume them. It happened about every two or three matches.
I didn't even know that was able to happen....that's absolutely ridiculous.
Mr. B 2851
02-03-2014, 22:04
Way too many teams who do not have an auton will start with a ball.
Refs have way too much to watch to be able to call matches cleanly.
Penalties and scoring is way out of balance.
So many teams don't know the rules.
So many alliances did not have a human player in every zone which resulted in confusion and lost time whenever a ball left the field and the volunteer had to figure out where to take the ball.
So many teams don't know how to scout.
If your robot relies on a loose ball sitting in the right position to be scored you are going to have a very bad day.
ThunderousPrime
02-03-2014, 22:06
There is a question box for any calls that coaches only can contest. The coach usually has to go there right after a match though. Knowing the rules is incredibly important.
This is untrue in two respects:
Only a Pre-College Student can enter the question box. In many case it will be the student coach but an adult coach would have to send a student to ask a question.
Also, rulings are final so unless you can convince the ref that a field fault or ref fault that influenced the outcome of the match you're most likely out of luck. (A match will be replayed if such a fault is found.)
The Rule referenced in point 1 is T13.
Richard Wallace
02-03-2014, 22:22
Looking at the manual, the only instance of "glove" is in the Admin section:Look a little further. The section you quoted above (4.2 FIRST Safety) begins with a reference (hhttp://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Resources/2014%20FRC%20Team%20Safety%20Manual%201.31.14.pdf) to the FRC Team Safety Manual. Starting on page 10 of that manual there is a detailed description of procedures teams should use when lifting, handling, and transporting the robot. The first bullet point there: ensure that all lifters are wearing PPE (safety glasses, gloves, etc.)
I agree recommendations are not the same thing as requirements. Teams should work safely because it is the smart way to play.
SargeUSMC
02-03-2014, 23:06
Didn't go thru all the posts, so I donno if this was mentioned already, but I viewed multiple matches online at different regionals where there there were multiple alliance balls in play (once all left over balls from auto were cleared.) That is to say, new balls were being put into play before existing cycles were completed.
And there were times that I saw robots waiting an inordinate amount of time for a new ball to be put into play as well.....
Lil' Lavery
02-03-2014, 23:24
Do you mean the pedestal?
What were the reasons for fixing it? Did they have to change the light bulb? :-)
Yes, the pedestal. Sorry for the mix-up.
By "fixing," I meant making sure it was lit when it was supposed to be. Often, it should have been lit after the completion of a cycle, but it wasn't. Teams would shout and bang the glass, then the head ref would fog horn the match, consult with refs/volunteers to ensure the proper pedestals were lit, and resume the match.
This happened less frequently on Sunday than Saturday, and less frequently still in the eliminations (only once that I noticed, but I didn't get the chance to watch every elim match). The pedestals were also lit quicker in the eliminations, in general (but some assists were still missed).
This might be unpopular, but I don't think the bar behind the goal should be changed. When I first saw people posting about it, I pulled up the official drawings and found the part. If I was on a team, there's a decent chance I would have wanted to see exactly how the goal would look at competition, and at least try to adjust my shots accordingly. The rules also state that the ball must go through the goal and stay there to be scored. It's the same bar for everyone, and it was never a secret.
You are correct IMHO....If all did their full homework (or adjusted their shooters to fix the problem now...at least work out a solution to apply to their bot in the future as soon as they legally can), they would have forseen that those bars over the drivers heads in the low part of the upper goals, could potentially be a future problem for those w/ a flat shot, or one going through even w/ or after the center of their shot arc...(We did forsee a possible issue very early, so we shoot up through the goal early on our arc and will be missing those bars altogether). OK, so we are not shooting from the white zone to do so, but the sweet spot is nice that way, and can be done easily in auto & on the run too in teleop, so that much harder to defend against also)....It is a problem that should not be fixed any more than the lower chain fix in the upper frisbee goals was last year, (when the fix actually caused more problems w/ missed goals), than the original issue causing the chains to tangle up did.
Deal w/ that issue by changing how you shoot, as it really isn't that hard to do.
______________
-The lack of actually made Auto Shots (and the actual # of attempted truss shots flat missed), overall this weekend, was unbelieveable and actually very sad. (The game is Pick up, pass, shoot, catch, pass, shoot.....Design a robot to the game. Code to the Auto. Drive your hearts out. Train your HP's to avoid the G20 penalties at all cost. (Or it will cost you bigtime! and when it counts).
-Watching HP's inbounding or on the sidelines flat hang onto a ball off the field too long just looking for a robot to inbound to (many I saw did this, over & over again, on the many multi stream matches I watched this weekend), for from a full 30 seconds to even a full minute or more, instead of just throwing that ball over those 2 defenders sitting right in front of them, to their bot clear across the field...Had me actually yelling at my computer screen constantly.
HP's, they can't score "anything", if you are holding on to that ball in your hands. (Though I did see a few inbounders that were tossing them much too quickly and very inacurately too (most ended up in the opposing alliances low goal), and then running off like they had something they had to do really fast too...Like send or read a text on their phone maybe?) Take your time going back to that ball on the not yet lighted tube inbounders....It will be a few seconds at least before it lights up again sending you on another important mission to deliver it to your alliance.
-Those that can make those high goals and rarely ever miss, should never 1 point it unless you are sitting w/ 3 assists already.
-Last but not least...The Ri3D overhead wheel type / lean out P.U. is actually easy to defeat by a well played defender. (And I'm glad our team didn't go that way now). Holding that ball tightly is a must while travelling the field and while being defended.
_________________________
I am just so glad (after watching all those week 1 matches that I did),....that our team personally took the "back to basics approach" and made the bot simply to "play the game" this year, and left out all the bells, whistles, and pretty lights and other fancy stuff.
I cannot wait to see it play in week #4 (if what I know that bagged 1 does already, and I know what I see them practicing daily now w/ the Practice Bot is building to....Yes, the last few days we were making sure our HP's know where that "no man's land" is (as when they lost 10" of HP play area, we just knew that would make things that much tougher on them), and they are to stay away from it always. (It isn't natural for them though, trying to toss or roll that ball inbounds by pushing from behind it, instead of throwing it w/ hands on the sides of the ball). That, and trying to break the "human player auto error correction habit" they all will naturally have, by leaning over & reaching into the field to "get it where they actually meant it to go." (Let it go HP's...Leave it alone! Let your bot get your error drops...they can P.U. that ball up too as it was designed to do rather quickly). Coaching from the sidelines will lead to many G50 technicals w/ those arms waving & pointing all done while in "No Man's Land"...HP's, Do not do it PERIOD!
-Oh, and some of the actually scoring was totally erroneous...But they are just volunteers, and it is a tough game....let us all remember that please and be courteous in our statements OK. That will get much better as time goes on & before the Championships....that we can be sure of.
Book over...whew.
Speaking as a ref, on a 6-person crew, at a Week 1 regional:
The crew I was on was in agreement that we had way too much to do. And that the panels for input need an update.
1) The refs are keeping track of possessions, scores (truss, catch, and goal--and miss), cycles, AND fouls by both robots and human players. Odds are, something is going to get overlooked unless it's blatant.
2) Lag, lag, wait for it... lag. On some screens, the panels are fairly quick... but on others, it's a good solid 3-4 seconds. And when ending a cycle, on top of the potential wait for a ball to be good or bad for sure, there's whatever lag is in the system to get the signal to the pedestal to light up.
And... my personal hope is that G40 gets revised to a Foul. Particularly given the severe effects a T-Foul has on the score.
team222badbrad
02-03-2014, 23:43
By "fixing," I meant making sure it was lit when it was supposed to be. Often, it should have been lit after the completion of a cycle, but it wasn't.
There were several complaints with this at Mt. Olive as well which is why I jokingly mentioned changing the light bulb. There was never any paused matches that I was aware of though. There were a several replays some of which I believe were due to unlit pedestals.
I'd like to know what the issue typically is for causing the unlit pedestal? I assume it's just human error which is the cause of way too many matches being lost for teams who should have won. This is something we figured out on kickoff and unfortunately I think it will continue to happen for the remainder of the season. Hopefully it will be reduced significantly by week 2.
Abhishek R
02-03-2014, 23:45
You are correct IMHO....If all did their full homework (or adjusted their shooters to fix the problem now...at least work out a solution to apply to their bot in the future as soon as they legally can), they would have forseen that those bars over the drivers heads in the low part of the upper goals, could potentially be a future problem...Deal w/ that issue by changing how you shoot, as it really isn't that hard to do.
Does this mean teams should have foreseen the 30 second wait time from scoring to the lit pedestal as the refs wait to see if the ball bounces back into the field?
They've made changes to the field because of these issues before, it's not a huge stretch to do that here. All you have to do is put a plate over the bars so it's flat or inclined backwards.
team222badbrad
02-03-2014, 23:49
Does this mean teams should have foreseen the 30 second wait time from scoring to the lit pedestal as the refs wait to see if the ball bounces back into the field?
They've made changes to the field because of these issues before, it's not a huge stretch to do that here. All you have to do is put a plate over the bars so it's flat or inclined backwards.
We missed a few shots due to those bars.
We also had an autonomous ball in the finals get stuck on the bars.
The volunteer had a rough time removing it from those bars and almost knocked it back onto the field. What would have happened then?
It is definitely something FIRST needs to consider.
TheMadCADer
03-03-2014, 00:09
Field Reset volunteers don't know who to give balls back to. Human Players should be given a distinct Red or Blue vest to wear during matches so that they are easy to pick out in the crowd of people around the field. 6 vests is a cheap and easy solution, and the only training it requires is telling the volunteers to look for a vest matching the ball in their hands.
PVCpirate
03-03-2014, 00:10
Scoring Panel lag aside, I just thought of something with regards to the referees, assuming a 6 person crew:
2 refs are assigned as "Ball Refs". Each one picks an alliance and follows their ball. They rule on assists, trusses, catches, ball posession fouls, dead balls and goals. Autonomous shouldn't be too much of an issue since there are no trusses, catches or assists.
2 refs are assigned as "Robot Refs." They could divide the field in half somehow and watch the robots on one side. They rule on Robot-Robot interaction fouls, single robot issues.
5th and maybe 6th refs could watch human players, I'm not sure of the exact role of the Head Ref currently, he may have other, more important roles.
What do the refs think?
Some roller intakes are terrible. Generally roller intake>non roller intake, but some teams I'm sure have made the pinch work (I'm interested to see how 4334 and 842 do).
I would disagree with this. We used the pincher method quite effectively. It also held onto the ball well at Alamo. Our major issue came when the arms were hit hard multiple times during eliminations. Redesigning before Bayou is already underway.
I also think that first should put something over the bar so that the ball can't bounce back out of the goal. However, I think my reason is a bit different from what everyone else is saying.
A huge problem right now is the multitasking that the referees are having to do. Because the balls are not guaranteed to stay in the goals right now the referees must hold off on lighting up the "can" and starting a new cycle.
Fixing the goals so the balls never bounce back out will allow the referees to push the button right when they see the ball pass through the goal. This would result in:
1. Less strain on the referees. The less time they spend looking at the ball bouncing in the goal the more time they can spend watching the match and doing the rest of what they do.
2. Faster gameplay. This should mostly fix the big delay between scoring a ball and waiting for the "can" to light up. The more of the match the balls are on the field, the more exciting this game will be to watch.
3. The side benefit is it becomes easier for teams to score because the goal bar is no longer de-scoring shots. More teams scoring high goals makes the game more exciting which in turn reflects well on the FIRST organization.
Food for thought
Cheers, Bryan
Ouch....I meant G40 at least twice in my post above. Sry all.
ThunderousPrime
03-03-2014, 00:24
You are correct IMHO....If all did their full homework (or adjusted their shooters to fix the problem now...at least work out a solution to apply to their bot in the future as soon as they legally can), they would have forseen that those bars over the drivers heads in the low part of the upper goals, could potentially be a future problem for those w/ a flat shot, or one going through even w/ or after the center of their shot arc...(We did forsee a possible issue very early, so we shoot up through the goal early on our arc and will be missing those bars altogether). OK, so we are not shooting from the white zone to do so, but the sweet spot is nice that way, and can be done easily in auto & on the run too in teleop, so that much harder to defend against also)....It is a problem that should not be fixed any more than the lower chain fix in the upper frisbee goals was last year, (when the fix actually caused more problems w/ missed goals), than the original issue causing the chains to tangle up did.
Deal w/ that issue by changing how you shoot, as it really isn't that hard to do.
What most irks me about the bouncing out issue is the element of randomness and uncertainty it bring to a match because of the varied frequency of the bounce-back. You never know when the Invisible Goalie will strike. One high goal, esp. with 3 assists attached, can certainly swing a match and hurt teams that "score" the high goal but hit the bar.
Teams with both flatter and more curved arcs have had shots bounce out.
(Neither you nor I have attending an event yet so we are probably not the best judges of the situation.)
Reposting a relevant quote made by Sunny in another thread.
Ultimately, it'll come down to the intent of the rails and how FIRST had intended for the goals to perform.
As per the rules (3.1.4.A), FIRST has no obligation to fix this. They are fine by how the rule is defined and how the field was built.
However, currently, it seems that the rail is there to protect drivers, and not to kick the ball back out. If this is correct, and FIRST wants to keep it that way, they ought to implement a change.
- Sunny G.
Scoring Panel lag aside, I just thought of something with regards to the referees, assuming a 6 person crew:
2 refs are assigned as "Ball Refs". Each one picks an alliance and follows their ball. They rule on assists, trusses, catches, ball posession fouls, dead balls and goals. Autonomous shouldn't be too much of an issue since there are no trusses, catches or assists.
2 refs are assigned as "Robot Refs." They could divide the field in half somehow and watch the robots on one side. They rule on Robot-Robot interaction fouls, single robot issues.
5th and maybe 6th refs could watch human players, I'm not sure of the exact role of the Head Ref currently, he may have other, more important roles.
What do the refs think?There's a particular way the ref panels are set up that partly precludes that exact strategy. But, IE, where I reffed, used a similar one.
First, there are only 5 refs on the field, counting the Head Ref. We had 6, so the 6th was off taking a break for a few matches. Two scored the goals and possessions they could see clearly--in auto, they scored the goals and hot bonus--and in teleop, they were the ONLY refs who could score goals and end the cycles. Two more, across the field from them, scored possessions and flagged all the fouls--in auto, they scored mobility. Refs without flags could call for a penalty via radio.
The Head Ref? Pinning, seeing stuff the other 4 missed, human players, dealing with questions, dead balls, disabling robots...
PayneTrain
03-03-2014, 00:32
What most irks me about the bouncing out issue is the element of randomness and uncertainty it bring to a match because of the varied frequency of the bounce-back. You never know when the Invisible Goalie will strike. One high goal, esp. with 3 assists attached, can certainly swing a match and hurt teams that "score" the high goal but hit the bar.
Teams with both flatter and more curved arcs have had shots bounce out.
(Neither you nor I have attending an event yet so we are probably not the best judges of the situation.)
Reposting a relevant quote made by Sunny in another thread.
Regardless over design of robots, the field has a glaring fault on it in that a ball can, in some instances, fully pass throguh the goal but still bounce on the field. Everyone followed their own given rules; the team scored the ball, the referees closed the cycle and relit the can, and physics answers to (almost) no man. The field and the rules are simply incompatible in this instance. They (the GDC) can either leave the issue or fix at least one end of it.
JTEarley
03-03-2014, 00:42
I also think that first should put something over the bar so that the ball can't bounce back out of the goal. However, I think my reason is a bit different from what everyone else is saying.
A huge problem right now is the multitasking that the referees are having to do. Because the balls are not guaranteed to stay in the goals right now the referees must hold off on lighting up the "can" and starting a new cycle.
Fixing the goals so the balls never bounce back out will allow the referees to push the button right when they see the ball pass through the goal. This would result in:
1. Less strain on the referees. The less time they spend looking at the ball bouncing in the goal the more time they can spend watching the match and doing the rest of what they do.
2. Faster gameplay. This should mostly fix the big delay between scoring a ball and waiting for the "can" to light up. The more of the match the balls are on the field, the more exciting this game will be to watch.
3. The side benefit is it becomes easier for teams to score because the goal bar is no longer de-scoring shots. More teams scoring high goals makes the game more exciting which in turn reflects well on the FIRST organization.
Food for thought
Cheers, Bryan
My opinion exactly
BBray_T1296
03-03-2014, 00:48
For Alamo regional Finals 2, you can watch this video (http://youtu.be/ZZr7iFbq7E0?t=1m42s) and clearly see the live score tied 85-85, an then 624 gets a truss toss, which is never counted on the live score, hence the post match score change to 95-85
JohnSchneider
03-03-2014, 00:56
For Alamo regional Finals 2, you can watch this video (http://youtu.be/ZZr7iFbq7E0?t=1m42s) and clearly see the live score tied 85-85, an then 624 gets a truss toss, which is never counted on the live score, hence the post match score change to 95-85
You can also see 118s human player fall out of the box and not get a foul...
PayneTrain
03-03-2014, 01:00
You can also see 118s human player fall out of the box and not get a foul...
G39: During the MATCH, TEAMS must remain in contact with the area of the FIELD (ALLIANCE STATION or HUMAN PLAYER AREA) in which they started the MATCH. Exceptions will be granted for inadvertent, momentary, and inconsequential infractions and in cases concerning safety.
Emphasis mine.
What part of 118's human player falling out of the zone was intnetional, prolonged, or consequential? I worked with their human player, Nick (?). He was probably one of the 4 best human players at Alamo, narrowly beating out 190's.
Abhishek R
03-03-2014, 01:03
Literally bumper cars. All 6 of robots clustered in the middle of the field in an all out fight over both the blue and red balls. 16462
Someone may have already linked this...haven't read through all 16 pages. Here's the video:
http://youtu.be/iUi8ZEie7uw
Quick cycles are the key. The third team on this alliance was dead...imagine what would have been possible with an auto contribution and some defensive play from 346. They were a capable bot - played into semi finals if memory serves.
And 1772 was a prime example of an upper goal shooter that does NOT hit the pipes at the bottom of the upper goal and bounce back onto the field. (It can be done....Fix your bot, do not expect FIRST to fix the field) The arc can be your FRIEND. So, MAKE IT YOUR FRIEND...not your enemy.:D
AllenGregoryIV
03-03-2014, 01:06
You can also see 118s human player fall out of the box and not get a foul...
G39
During the MATCH, TEAMS must remain in contact with the area of the FIELD (ALLIANCE STATION or HUMAN PLAYER AREA) in which they started the MATCH. Exceptions will be granted for inadvertent, momentary, and inconsequential infractions and in cases concerning safety.
Violation: FOUL
It's a referee decision if the infraction was inadvertent, momentary, inconsequential or for safety reasons. They deemed that it was not a foul, I don't know which category they ruled under I just know they ruled it not a foul.
MrForbes
03-03-2014, 01:07
The arc can be your FRIEND. So, MAKE IT YOUR FRIEND...not your enemy.
...like, get close to the goal before shooting?
team222badbrad
03-03-2014, 01:13
And 1772 was a prime example of an upper goal shooter that does NOT hit the pipes at the bottom of the upper goal and bounce back onto the field. (It can be done....Fix your bot, do not expect FIRST to fix the field) The arc can be your FRIEND. So, MAKE IT YOUR FRIEND...not your enemy.:D
Seems it actually DOES hit the pipes... http://youtu.be/iUi8ZEie7uw?t=53s
This shot is also predicable if that's the only one you can shoot from which can make it your enemy.
PayneTrain
03-03-2014, 01:18
...like, get close to the goal before shooting?
Are you a wizard or mage or something
Anupam Goli
03-03-2014, 01:32
And 1772 was a prime example of an upper goal shooter that does NOT hit the pipes at the bottom of the upper goal and bounce back onto the field. (It can be done....Fix your bot, do not expect FIRST to fix the field) The arc can be your FRIEND. So, MAKE IT YOUR FRIEND...not your enemy.:D
I'm not sure why you wouldn't expect FIRST to fix the field... they've fixed the field in the past when the field elements were causing issues that weren't a part of the intent of the field design. In 2012, they redid the pieces under the bridge so the balls would roll out more easily. In 2013, they added a piece to connect the chains so frisbees bounced out less. This tuesday's team update will be huge, and I'm looking forward to what FIRST has to say about what went right and what went wrong.
Emphasis mine.
What part of 118's human player falling out of the zone was intnetional, prolonged, or consequential? I worked with their human player, Nick (?). He was probably one of the 4 best human players at Alamo, narrowly beating out 190's.You could argue that it was "consequential" because he fell out while diving to deflect his alliance's ball back into the field, so he gained an advantage while performing the action that caused him to end up out of the zone.
From the wiki on 6061 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6061_aluminium_alloy) aluminum:
"6061 is highly weldable, for example using tungsten inert gas welding (TIG) or metal inert gas welding (MIG). Typically, after welding, the properties near the weld are those of 6061-O, a loss of strength of around 80%. The material can be re-heat-treated to restore -T4 or -T6 temper for the whole piece. After welding, the material can naturally age and restore some of its strength as well. Nevertheless, the Alcoa Structural Handbook recommends the design strength of the material adjacent to the weld to be taken as 11,000 psi without proper heat treatment after the weld."
That compares to 35ksi yield strength of properly heat treated 6061-T6.
Teams that use welded aluminum construction need to realize that your welded joints are now incredibly weak. And that's if the welding has been done with perfect technique (certified welder with years of experience). High school grade workmanship will be way worse.
__________________
Been there, seen that a million times (after welding of that particular frame joint in your pic...It certainly appears to me that much more than 50% of the weld was then quite overly ground away, seeing that the appearance of the lack of any weld bead is also present). It is a ton of work I know, and the same issues happened to our team during Rebound Rumble (we played in the finals, lost, then rebagged a known very injured bot after our first regional, and it saw us stripping our bot completely down in the pits, to a very custom and powder coated dual side intake frame, at our second regional in Las Vegas, because every single weld broke that there was to break, between (many slightly over ground welds), a lot of very active defense, and that nasty floor beam we crossed much too often. That of course, led to many other bugs after the welding was done too, and that robot reassembled in a short period of time. That bot just wasn't quite right until Q time was nearly finished (it was by then, but we had not shown the necessary reliability to that point that another team would/could trust)....Wasn't a good year for us needless to say. I hope you fare much better in your case.
Not a weld on this years bot BTW, as we knew it was going to be a very defensive hard hitting game. Though last years bot was for us.....It lasted. (And that one incident caused us to learn to go much more modular in the future).
You have one thing going for you...At least the carry in has luckily been increased to 45 lbs....That 50% increase should get you there. (Well that and a good pit crew I certainly hope!)
Good Luck! (Weld clean, and leave the beads please).
...like, get close to the goal before shooting?
Ummm...Yeah Jim...Just a little closer:D ...That could be the easy solution. Almost every shot I saw bounce back in, was much longer than it actually needed to be. And those not willing to change can always push it into the low goal.
Ok, for the ref's I might think a change is necessary (but still, to every bot choosing to be shooting the high goal). We are supposed to design to the field. Not the GDC changing the field to our design choices.
See you in just a couple of weeks...Can't wait after watching all this exciting week 1 action. Tough game for all!
martin417
03-03-2014, 10:05
Are there any pictures of your robot anywhere?
I too would like to see pictures. That robot looks a little familiar.....
SoccerTaco
03-03-2014, 13:20
I too would like to see pictures. That robot looks a little familiar.....
Do you remember team 1771's bot from 2008? We found their bot inspiring!
http://frcdesigns.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/2008_1771.jpg
Rynocorn
03-03-2014, 13:23
Do you remember team 1771's bot from 2008? We found their bot inspiring!
http://frcdesigns.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/2008_1771.jpg
I would hope that he remembers 1771's robot from 2008 seeing that he was a mentor for the team that year :D
SoccerTaco
03-03-2014, 13:26
I too would like to see pictures. That robot looks a little familiar.....
Here is a picture of this year's bot at Palmetto:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=658765087492247&set=a.658764900825599.1073741838.320809081287851&type=1&theater
martin417
03-03-2014, 13:28
Do you remember team 1771's bot from 2008? We found their bot inspiring!
http://frcdesigns.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/2008_1771.jpg
Hence the reason the bot looked familiar ;)
SoccerTaco
03-03-2014, 13:33
I would hope that he remembers 1771's robot from 2008 seeing that he was a mentor for the team that year :D
Ahhh - cool!
Martin - we love your robot from 2008!. It was certainly a major inspiration to our bot!!! :)
Another picture:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=658765220825567&set=a.658764900825599.1073741838.320809081287851&type=1&theater
sammyjalex
03-03-2014, 13:41
I saw a lot of defense on the opponent's in the in-bounding zone. Several times, BLUEBALL got trapped between the REDBOT and the REDLOWGOAL while the BLUEBOT is hoping to get the first ASSIST.
More than a few times, REDBOT pushed the BLUEBALL into REDLOWGOAL or BLUEBOT pushed REDBOT into BLUEBALL and the BALL inadvertently traveled into REDLOWGOAL as a result.
It took a fair amount of time to return BLUEBALL to Blue HUMAN PLAYER and then to the FIELD.
I wonder: Will we see this called as a G11 or G12?
I haven't read through this whole thread yet since I am on mobile but I was thinking to myseld. If you have a 1 ball auton and neither of your partners has one, would it be worth it to still put all 3 balls on the field? You score your one and IF you have a decently fast pickup and scoring device then to me it makes sense to keep them out to get those quick 20 points before start the cycle. Mainly thought this because if your partners don't have an auto at all, you might be running and gunning by yourself and those points will be key as proven so far. :ahh:
EricLeifermann
03-03-2014, 13:49
I haven't read through this whole thread yet since I am on mobile but I was thinking to myseld. If you have a 1 ball auton and neither of your partners has one, would it be worth it to still put all 3 balls on the field? You score your one and IF you have a decently fast pickup and scoring device then to me it makes sense to keep them out to get those quick 20 points before start the cycle. Mainly thought this because if your partners don't have an auto at all, you might be running and gunning by yourself and those points will be key as proven so far. :ahh:
Its not worth it because you have to get those 2 balls and, if i'm on the other alliance, im going to do my best to send at least 1 bot at you and stop you from getting those 2 in so you can't get any assist, truss, or catch points...
Its not worth it because you have to get those 2 balls and, if i'm on the other alliance, im going to do my best to send at least 1 bot at you and stop you from getting those 2 in so you can't get any assist, truss, or catch points...
For later on I agree but after watching the level of some of these drivers...I wouldn't be confident they could honestly stop a decent bot. Not speaking for just our team. I believe that will be the case for almost all events after week 3 but prior to that I think it might be a viable strategy
Citrus Dad
03-03-2014, 14:14
-
- Web streaming technology sucks.
Do you have an opinion about webstreaming at Inland Empire? Our team ran that one, and we're hoping to run it at UCD.
EricLeifermann
03-03-2014, 14:15
For later on I agree but after watching the level of some of these drivers...I wouldn't be confident they could honestly stop a decent bot. Not speaking for just our team. I believe that will be the case for almost all events after week 3 but prior to that I think it might be a viable strategy
The longer it takes you to get rid of your auto balls the less time you have to score assist/truss/catch points, no matter how much I slow you down that is a win every time in my book.
Citrus Dad
03-03-2014, 14:16
We learned today people don't read the rules and have no clue how to score.
I would agree this is the fundamental issue this year. One alliance lost in the quarters because they weren't aware that they had never gotten the last auto ball off the field and played like they were in a cycle.
Do you have an opinion about webstreaming at Inland Empire? Our team ran that one, and we're hoping to run it at UCD.
Well I can personally comment on that.
It was a great webcast. I liked having the full field view separate from the production company, but still having the timer, scores, etc. I know doing that independent of the FMS must not have been easy, but it was great!
Keep up the good work!
If you have a 1 ball auton and neither of your partners has one, would it be worth it to still put all 3 balls on the field? You score your one and IF you have a decently fast pickup and scoring device then to me it makes sense to keep them out to get those quick 20 points before start the cycle.
No. Even if only one robot has to score all the points (which should never be the case) you lose points by taking the time to finish off the auto balls. If your robot can score in the high goal, you can do a truss shot & get 20 per cycle; that's more than the 10 you get with each auto ball. All a robot has to do to get a possession is trap it against the wall; that's reasonably quick.
Obviously, having to chase down a truss ball takes time, but it also scores immediately. ymmv, but I think what we saw in CIR says don't put auto balls on the field unless you can make them reliably.
Citrus Dad
03-03-2014, 14:20
I've seen 2 catches in around 30 matches watched. Whether or not this is a true indicator of what is happening I don't know.
We had two catches in our last finals match. I think there was one other catch at Inland Empire.
Do you have an opinion about webstreaming at Inland Empire? Our team ran that one, and we're hoping to run it at UCD.
I only watched for an hour or so yesterday, and it was mostly superb. If you are looking for small improvements, sometimes there seemed to be music from the venue and possibly music from your streaming computer playing at the same time.
nlknauss
03-03-2014, 14:29
I saw a lot of defense on the opponent's in the in-bounding zone. Several times, BLUEBALL got trapped between the REDBOT and the REDLOWGOAL while the BLUEBOT is hoping to get the first ASSIST.
I'd like to see that called as a G12. We had this happen to us in a scoring zone yesterday where 2 red robots had our alliance's blue ball cornered behind them next to our low goal. You'll see in the video below that it stopped our cycle for 30s. I don't blame the red alliance for employing this strategy because they weren't controlling the ball, they were just stopping us from getting to it. Definitely smart but I don't think it's a strategy that we'd want to see in this game and the rules should protect this from happening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYMrERSLR70&feature=share&t=4h56m44s
Nate
Citrus Dad
03-03-2014, 14:30
Something I've noticed is many teams inbound the ball to robot A, A passes to B, then B does a truss pass, but B never completely crossed into the white zone before passing so no assist is scored. The team took 20 points off the board for no reason.
Not trying to tell you what you saw, but I thought the same thing for a while until I noticed this. I've actually been pretty ok with the assist scoring so far, the slow cycle restarts are a different story though
Our driver was very deliberate about being sure to pick up those points during eliminations. Took me a moment to figure out what he was doing.
Citrus Dad
03-03-2014, 14:35
-
- I hope elims has filtered us down to the competent, so that a match might be a bit more exciting/high scoring..
Turned out to not always be the case.
Truss points are vital to the success of an alliance
Strong Defense can completely win a match for you if there is no response
Autonomous can make or break an alliance's match
Scouting the defensive capabilities of a robot are incredible for alliance selection, because of the two above points
running 21 point cycles is incredibly fast if you're able to have a robot that can truss shot.
markmcgary
03-03-2014, 15:08
I'd like to see that called as a G12. We had this happen to us in a scoring zone yesterday where 2 red robots had our alliance's blue ball cornered behind them next to our low goal. You'll see in the video below that it stopped our cycle for 30s. I don't blame the red alliance for employing this strategy because they weren't controlling the ball, they were just stopping us from getting to it. Definitely smart but I don't think it's a strategy that we'd want to see in this game and the rules should protect this from happening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYMrERSLR70&feature=share&t=4h56m44s
Nate
I'd call it a G25 Blockade. It looks like RED ROBOTS stopped the flow of the match for 30 seconds. At least the BLUE alliance flow. I do not know the history of G25, so I may be way off.
3.2.5.8 G25
ROBOTS on the same ALLIANCE may not blockade the FIELD in an attempt to stop the flow of the MATCH. This rule has no effect on individual ROBOT-ROBOT interaction.
Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL
Josh Fritsch
03-03-2014, 15:19
I'd call it a G25 Blockade. It looks like RED ROBOTS stopped the flow of the match for 30 seconds. At least the BLUE alliance flow. I do not know the history of G25, so I may be way off.
I disagree. Q&A has said that 2 robots playing defense is not "blockading".
However, it would be awfully close if not "possession" by the opponent according to G12:
G12
An ALLIANCE may not POSSESS their opponent’s BALLS. The following criteria define POSSESSION:
D. “trapping” (overt isolation or holding one or more BALLS against a FIELD element or ROBOT in an attempt to shield them).
PayneTrain
03-03-2014, 15:27
Do you have an opinion about webstreaming at Inland Empire? Our team ran that one, and we're hoping to run it at UCD.
Are you all going to publish anything on how you ran yours? I really liked it in the offseason and now, and I can't be the only one curious to try it out myself.
Citrus Dad
03-03-2014, 15:28
Because they'd be so busy scoring they wouldn't have time to get back into position!
...but yes, the less-than-perfect alliance will have to deal with the vagaries of life in robot-land.
We were very busy scoring (191 teleop in one match) but still played a lot of defense while our shooter was scoring, and our initiator was repositioning.
markmcgary
03-03-2014, 15:32
I disagree. Q&A has said that 2 robots playing defense is not "blockading".
However, it would be awfully close if not "possession" by the opponent according to G12:
I found Q189 stating: "Generally, ALLIANCE ROBOTS successfully trapping the entire opponent ALLIANCE into one area of the FIELD is considered "stopping the flow of the MATCH" and an example of a "blockade"."
So, it appears that a blockade does not apply.
But, I agree. I was also thinking G12-D. There are lots of subjective calls in this game.
-Scout to see if bots "play nice with others"
-Edxu is right, truss shots can easily sway a match
-Human Players can really screw up a match
-Alliance selection will decide (most of the time) if you win, so scouting programs have to be excellent this year.
-quick two assist cycles with one defense bot worked well.
markmcgary
03-03-2014, 15:47
I only watched for an hour or so yesterday, and it was mostly superb. If you are looking for small improvements, sometimes there seemed to be music from the venue and possibly music from your streaming computer playing at the same time.
I was real happy with the Citrus Circuits streaming video also. The only tiny issue I noticed was the fade to black during camera angle changes. Sometimes they happened at just the wrong time. Maybe a cross-fade instead?
Thanks to 1678 for hosting the IE streaming video!
PVCpirate
03-03-2014, 15:48
Do you have an opinion about webstreaming at Inland Empire? Our team ran that one, and we're hoping to run it at UCD.
Great stream, the full-field view is the best for webcasts because I feel like I'm up in the stands, and I'm not going to miss anything. My only complaint was that the score on your in-match overlay was often different from the one on the projector screen. I'd like to see the official score. Other than that, you guys did a great job with it and I'd love to see it for more events.
BBray_T1296
03-03-2014, 15:58
I was real happy with the Citrus Circuits streaming video also. The only tiny issue I noticed was the fade to black during camera angle changes. Sometimes they happened at just the wrong time. Maybe a cross-fade instead?
I am fine with hard switches in sporting events personally. Cross fades are better than fade to black, but cross fades are generally unintelligible while both feeds are shown at once.
One thing to note (didn't watch any regional but Alamo). When the MC is announcing the teams should be the only time the alliance station cam should be used. Showing the drivers during a match is annoying, and useless. We want to see the robots. Generally speaking I also hate to see the view of one robot mega close to a camera, it is cool seeing them up close, but again, I want to see the match.
Citrus Dad
03-03-2014, 16:23
Well I can personally comment on that.
It was a great webcast. I liked having the full field view separate from the production company, but still having the timer, scores, etc. I know doing that independent of the FMS must not have been easy, but it was great!
Keep up the good work!
Thanks!:)
Citrus Dad
03-03-2014, 16:25
I only watched for an hour or so yesterday, and it was mostly superb. If you are looking for small improvements, sometimes there seemed to be music from the venue and possibly music from your streaming computer playing at the same time.
Thanks. Yes we're aware of the audio issue. We actually used Skype to send audio to avoid hardwires, but it had some reliability problems.
Citrus Dad
03-03-2014, 16:28
Are you all going to publish anything on how you ran yours? I really liked it in the offseason and now, and I can't be the only one curious to try it out myself.
Yes, I've asked the students to prepare a write up (in part because they are seniors!) and we'll share it on Chief Delphi.
cmrnpizzo14
03-03-2014, 17:40
Do you have an opinion about webstreaming at Inland Empire? Our team ran that one, and we're hoping to run it at UCD.
Loved the full field with the score overlay. It took my favorite part of the Michigan webcasts, the full field view, and improved it by putting the score up and removing the awkward fish-eye view.
In the Southfield final 1 video -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPlx4MOkVck -- it looks as if the robots are disabled a second or two before the buzzer sounds the end of the match.
Any ideas why? Did the clock hit zero when the robot were disabled or when the buzzer sounded?
AdamHeard
03-03-2014, 17:45
Loved the full field with the score overlay. It took my favorite part of the Michigan webcasts, the full field view, and improved it by putting the score up and removing the awkward fish-eye view.
I prefer the fish eye view to the stood back midfield view.
In the Southfield final 1 video -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPlx4MOkVck -- it looks as if the robots are disabled a second or two before the buzzer sounds the end of the match.
Any ideas why? Did the clock hit zero when the robot were disabled or when the buzzer sounded?
I noticed the same thing in some (but not all) matches at GTRW.
Abhishek R
03-03-2014, 18:21
In the Southfield final 1 video -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPlx4MOkVck -- it looks as if the robots are disabled a second or two before the buzzer sounds the end of the match.
Any ideas why? Did the clock hit zero when the robot were disabled or when the buzzer sounded?
This occurred in several matches at Alamo too. The robot would suddenly stop moving and the buzzer was always delayed.
Since the autonomous lights and goals were sometimes delayed, and possibly the computation of assists, I think this may be connected to the other issues we have been seeing with the field systems.
FearMyRush
03-03-2014, 19:45
From what I have seen in the streams that I have watched fouls are huge in determining the outcome of the game, however defense is also important. There is no sense in sitting there after your alliance has shot or passed the ball when you could be obstructing another alliance from scoring. Beware G40 for it is always watching...
PayneTrain
03-03-2014, 19:52
This occurred in several matches at Alamo too. The robot would suddenly stop moving and the buzzer was always delayed.
Since the autonomous lights and goals were sometimes delayed, and possibly the computation of assists, I think this may be connected to the other issues we have been seeing with the field systems.
There were oddities I dont remember from previous years. Sometimes at Alamo, the clock would hit zero, the lights would go out, the robots would stop, and the buzzer would sound. Those events drug out over the course of at least 2-3 seconds. Odd...
Anthony Galea
03-03-2014, 21:16
This is probably going to come off as long, whiny, and un-GP, but bear with me. I would like the referees to LEARN the rules, or at least be consistent. I am only posting this now because I fact checked beforehand.
First, during eliminations, whenever someone from our team would go up to the question box, we would be told, "You need the alliance captain in the question box"
I will simply quote the Game Manual for this:
T13
If a TEAM needs clarification on a ruling or score, one (1) pre-college student from that TEAM should address the Head Referee after the ARENA reset signal (i.e. PLAYER STATION LED strings turn green). A TEAM member signals their desire to speak with the Head Referee by standing in a Red or Blue Question Box, which are located on the floor near each end of the scoring table. Depending on timing, the Head Referee may postpone any requested discussion until the end of the subsequent MATCH.
Second, in Q-24, 3667 (This is in NO way putting them down) got disabled with the ball between them and the opposing low goal. We ended up losing the match, due to that reason. Afterwards, we sent a team member to the question box to inquire if, during that match, we were allowed to hold up the dead ball sign to render the ball dead. The referee told us yes, that we could. Later, when we were at the practice field, a referee came up to our drive team, and told us they were wrong, and that what they told us was incorrect. Our drive team was okay with that, because we had not tried using it since then, and they had delivered the correct rule.
Fast forward to Finals Match 1 (we are blue). After autonomous, a missed ball is on the red side of the field, and it goes in front of the red low goal, and there is chaos (as usual) around the ball, and 453 (red, once again, NOT putting them down) gets disabled with the blue ball between them and the wall, and the red low goal behind them. Because of what we were told earlier, we did not hold up the dead ball sign (which is also reinforced by the Q&A here (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/426/a-few-questions-1-is-the-alliance-coach-allowed-to-hold-up-the-dead-ball-card-2-if-a-ball-is-not-inside-a-disabled-robot-but-the-robot-prevents-the-ball-from-being-accessed-can-a-dead-ball-be-a)), yet no possession call was made on 453, which should have been a G12:D, a 50 point technical foul. After the match, the referees said that we needed to hold up the dead ball sign. This lost us F-1.
So, to add on to everyone's complaints about missed calls, G26 (sodizzle, Joseph, and Tom, I agree with you on those miscalls, I mean come on, BLUE BOX) and G40 (which actually isn't too hard to not get called on as long as you're careful and take a tad more time), if you are a referee, PLEASE read the rulebook.
xmaskid96
03-03-2014, 23:26
I want to make sure I have this information correct to present to my team this week. I noticed teams were passing the ball over the truss to the human player to catch. If the human player catches it, does that count for a catch bonus? The rules hint at it, but are vague in a way and during the webcasts, it was kind of hard to notice the points being added due to the fast pace of the game.
cmwilson13
03-03-2014, 23:28
I want to make sure I have this information correct to present to my team this week. I noticed teams were passing the ball over the truss to the human player to catch. If the human player catches it, does that count for a catch bonus? The rules hint at it, but are vague in a way and during the webcasts, it was kind of hard to notice the points being added due to the fast pace of the game.
no must be a robot
Under the definition of CATCH, no, the human does not contribute any catch points.
"A CATCH occurs when a BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting the carpet, the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS, or HUMAN PLAYER."
However, having the ball go to the human player does help ensure that the ball stays in the alliance's control.
mateoland
03-03-2014, 23:33
We had two catches in our last finals match. I think there was one other catch at Inland Empire.
399 newbie mentor here:
I am pretty sure what you saw was 399 catching their own ball. Sometime in the qual matches, we lobbed it over the truss and went under to recover our own by catching it.
This was my first chance to ever see a regional competition, and I was so glad we were matched up. Our strengths complemented each other. your repeatable throwing skill made it easy for our driver to recover the ball quickly. The two catches in a row was amazing! Our driver is really good and I figured it would happen at some point, but wasn't too sure if we could catch the line drive throws. The fact that both were "on the run" blew me away!
Anteprefix
04-03-2014, 03:19
Great stream, the full-field view is the best for webcasts because I feel like I'm up in the stands, and I'm not going to miss anything. My only complaint was that the score on your in-match overlay was often different from the one on the projector screen. I'd like to see the official score. Other than that, you guys did a great job with it and I'd love to see it for more events.
About the difference in scores: Our system is separate from the FMS, so we have to enter in data manually, so sometime we make mistakes. This was especially true when we were entering data for elimination matches, since we were forced to view the matches from a location where we couldn't even see the blue alliance assist/hot goal indicator LEDs or low goal! :eek:
Nick.kremer
04-03-2014, 05:03
399 newbie mentor here:
I am pretty sure what you saw was 399 catching their own ball. Sometime in the qual matches, we lobbed it over the truss and went under to recover our own by catching it.
I'm 100% sure he's talking about 1678's over the truss pass to 399 in the finals (forget which match), there were two of them, and they were very exciting!
Anteprefix
04-03-2014, 05:09
I'm 100% sure he's talking about 1678's over the truss pass to 399 in the finals (forget which match), there were two of them, and they were very exciting!
Actually, he is talking about one of the qualification matches where one team trussed to another and the receiving team activated their catapult just as the ball was about to enter their robot, causing the ball to exit the robot vertically and slowly bounce its way into the low goal. Since the receiving team actively manipulated the ball into being scored, the refs counted it as a catch.
Navid Shafa
04-03-2014, 05:49
I'm 100% sure he's talking about 1678's over the truss pass to 399 in the finals (forget which match), there were two of them, and they were very exciting!
It was Final 2 at Inland Empire. This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhY_p3qhSkY&feature=youtu.be&t=1m24s) video starts right before the two catches happen. I was amazed.
Zuelu562
04-03-2014, 07:07
I wanted to bring this up because it became a weird situation on Friday at GSDE. Early in Friday, a good portion of the teams (10+) had still not finished inspection. The queueing staff (including myself) were under the impression that a human player could be sent, even if the robot had not been inspected, to avoid the team getting a red card and therefore, 0 points. We were told by Robot Inspection that this was not the case, as per T6:
T6
A Team is only permitted to participate in a Qualification or Elimination MATCH and receive Qualification Points if their ROBOT has passed Inspection. If it is discovered after the start of the MATCH that a ROBOT did not pass Inspection and the Team participated in the MATCH, the entire ALLIANCE receives a RED CARD for that MATCH.
Some more wish-wash later, and we were under the correct rule, and then everyone finished inspection :D.
Just remember! ASK YOUR ALLIANCE PARTNERS IF THEY HAVE NOT BEEN INSPECTED!!!!
Greg McKaskle
04-03-2014, 08:38
I was at the Alamo regional helping the CSAs out. I will describe the common issues I saw, not to pick on the robots, but so that mentors and students can better prepare and recover when/if they occur.
As mentioned, it is a rough game and will uncover loose connections on a robot. I saw Anderson connectors disconnect, crimps to battery fail, ethernet cables pulled out, and digital ribbon cables come loose. Friction fits can only resist so much force. Fasteners, zip ties, and velcro are highly recommended to keep heavy components stationary and to keep connectors firmly attached.
Please trace radio power wires and check that it is wired as shown in R43 of the Robot manual. Late on Saturday, I was still seeing inventive ways of powering the radio. Most reboots I saw were not the cRIO, but the radio or entire robot. The log messages will indicate which devices rebooted during a match.
I saw more joystick issues than I expected. The DS doesn't know how many joysticks are supposed to be plugged in, so the LED on the left indicates zero or nonzero. The diagnostics screen and setup screens show individual joysticks. If your team connects a joystick during a match, they do not need to restart the DS, reboot the laptop, or reboot the robot. The procedure is to take hands off the joysticks, press F1, and resume play. If you press F1 with a joystick or gamepad off center, you are affecting the zero-calibration and may find that the robot is biased or spinning in circles. If this happens, follow the F1 procedure. Please make sure drivers are aware of this.
Please test your code using the practice mode of the DS. This sends the same commands to the robot as the field during a match. Some teams test auto and tele very well, but only in isolation. The transition between auto to tele happens once per match. It is important, so please test it.
Robot bumper rules, including color, are being enforced quite strictly. I understand that robots may be bypassed or estopped if the bumpers are sagging, broken, or molting.
I believe all of the fog-horns at Alamo were because a ball was reintroduced into the field improperly. They do not necessarily mean that the field is having technical difficulties.
Finally, if your robot stops moving on the field, there are a number of things to make note of to help identify and resolve the issue quickly.
* On the robot, observe the RSL and radio LEDs. You can often determine whether the entire robot lost power, can see the radio reboot, and can even see Anderson connectors with nothing connected to them.
* On the DS, observe the LEDs on the left side. Flip to the Diagnostics screen and observe the ping status LEDs and diagnostic messages. On the charts tab, you can see the realtime traces of CPU usage, battery level, and communications -- at least you can see the data for the time when the robot was connected.
* After the match you can review the charts data and messages using the Log File Viewer. It can be launched on the Charts tab, scroll to the latest match, typically at the bottom.
* Observe any dashboard or LCD message that the programmers may have put into the code -- a broken encoder, an impossible limit switch combo, a spinning gyro, etc.
* Remember what was taking place on the field when the issue happened. Were you pushing? Were you hit? Did the robot behave normally before the issue?
Once off the field, discuss the symptoms and observations. Determine some likely points of failure. Safely restore power to the robot, look at LEDs and cables. If a particular device lost power, tap/wiggle/tug the device and both ends of the power cable to see if you can cause it to happen again. Look for bare wire than may have shorted to the frame or another wire. Look for melted or pinched wiring insulation. Be sure to test sensors and actuators for damage. Most FRC code doesn't behave well with sensor failures. If you don't find the issue, ask for assistance.
When something happens to the robot, things can get intense. People may have lots of questions or theories. They may remind you again and again to hurry up and fix it. This doesn't only happen in FIRST. I hate to see robot failures like these happen, but watching a team effectively debug and correct issues is one of my favorite elements of FIRST. I hope this info helps.
Greg McKaskle
MrForbes
04-03-2014, 09:53
I was at the Alamo regional helping the CSAs out. I will describe the common issues I saw, not to pick on the robots, but so that mentors and students can better prepare and recover when/if they occur.
Thanks Greg....I printed your post, to share with our team!
falconmaster
04-03-2014, 10:37
Thanks Greg....I printed your post, to share with our team!
Ditto Jim! Thanks Greg!
Citrus Dad
04-03-2014, 12:14
I prefer the fish eye view to the stood back midfield view.
Adam, you must have a stronger stomach than me! ;) I usually get woozy with those fisheye views.
Citrus Dad
04-03-2014, 12:24
399 newbie mentor here:
I am pretty sure what you saw was 399 catching their own ball. Sometime in the qual matches, we lobbed it over the truss and went under to recover our own by catching it.
This was my first chance to ever see a regional competition, and I was so glad we were matched up. Our strengths complemented each other. your repeatable throwing skill made it easy for our driver to recover the ball quickly. The two catches in a row was amazing! Our driver is really good and I figured it would happen at some point, but wasn't too sure if we could catch the line drive throws. The fact that both were "on the run" blew me away!
399's catches in the finals match in traffic were amazing. I hadn't realized the opposing alliance scored only 1 teleop point and was playing 100% defense until I saw the replay, and 399 still caught 2 balls and we scored 2 60 point cycles. Thanks for being such a great alliance partner!
More generally, this game is very exciting when an alliance gets rolling like we did in the final few matches. With the truss shot, catch and long shot, the ball starts flying and you are watching more than one robot at a time. After watching the qualifying, we could see how really difficult it is to pull off complete teamwork. It must be what the GDC was envisioning.
gabrielau23
04-03-2014, 12:24
Doesn't the Human Player count for catch points? It says:
"A CATCH occurs when a BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting the carpet, the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS, or HUMAN PLAYER."
So a CATCH occurs when, after the ball is scored over the truss, the ball is either:
1. Caught by the same robot that threw it
2. Caught by a different robot on the same alliance
3. Caught by the Human Player.
Am I missing something here?
audietron
04-03-2014, 12:25
Great post Greg. This will help us out when we have another problem with connecting and get back in the game much quicker.
gabrielau23
04-03-2014, 12:28
Doesn't the Human Player count for catch points? It says:
"A CATCH occurs when a BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting the carpet, the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS, or HUMAN PLAYER."
So a CATCH occurs when, after the ball is scored over the truss, the ball is either:
1. Caught by the same robot that threw it
2. Caught by a different robot on the same alliance
3. Caught by the Human Player.
Am I missing something here?
And then later in the Game Manual:
https://www.diigo.com/item/p/qoaqsprzcabredcrrzbdacapcs
It says a CATCH is worth 10 points. Again, the definition is above. Therefore, if any of the above three happens, Catch points should be awarded, since if those are defined as catches, they should be worth 10 points once per cycle.
Doesn't the Human Player count for catch points? It says:
"A CATCH occurs when a BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting the carpet, the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS, or HUMAN PLAYER."
So a CATCH occurs when, after the ball is scored over the truss, the ball is either:
1. Caught by the same robot that threw it
2. Caught by a different robot on the same alliance
3. Caught by the Human Player.
Am I missing something here?
You're parsing it incorrectly. Correct parsing is:
A CATCH occurs when a BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting:
1. the carpet,
2. the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS,
3. or HUMAN PLAYER.
Doesn't the Human Player count for catch points? It says:
"A CATCH occurs when a BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting the carpet, the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS, or HUMAN PLAYER."
So a CATCH occurs when, after the ball is scored over the truss, the ball is either:
1. Caught by the same robot that threw it
2. Caught by a different robot on the same alliance
3. Caught by the Human Player.
Am I missing something here?
I think you're misinterpreting the rule which, admittedly, isn't the clearest (due in part, I think, to a team update that rewrote it).
"A CATCH occurs when a BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting the carpet, the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS, or HUMAN PLAYER."
The 'before contacting' bit is applied to the carpet and the robot that scored the truss and a human player. So a catch only occurs when the ball is caught by another robot before contacting the carpet or the tossing robot or a human player.
Suggest reading your post very carefully again. Catch is by a ROBOT possessing a ball scored over the truss by it's alliance partner BEFORE touching the carpet, the robot which scored the truss or the human player. Self catch and human catch do not score the catching points
jeser#1772
04-03-2014, 12:39
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUi8ZEie7uw&feature=youtube_gdata_player I just missed this match. Will there be VODs?
gabrielau23
04-03-2014, 12:42
You're parsing it incorrectly. Correct parsing is:
A CATCH occurs when a BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting:
1. the carpet,
2. the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS,
3. or HUMAN PLAYER.
Ahhhhhhhhhh okay.
Wow. FIRST needs to work on their syntax XD. I was reading it as:
A catch occurs when A, B, and C were met rather than
A catch occurs when if it is caught by a robot before A, B, and C.
FearMyRush
04-03-2014, 18:51
I may be wrong, but i don't think a robot to human player pass earns catch points. I have seen some teams throw the ball over the truss and have a human player catch it but that is primarily to have a reliable way to maintain control of the ball after a truss toss. It also greatly reduces the amount of time it would take to retrieve the ball after a truss toss if a human player were to catch it.
I may be wrong, but i don't think a robot to human player pass earns catch points. I have seen some teams throw the ball over the truss and have a human player catch it but that is primarily to have a reliable way to maintain control of the ball after a truss toss. It also greatly reduces the amount of time it would take to retrieve the ball after a truss toss if a human player were to catch it.
Our team was doing the over the truss to the human player shot (we're shooting from the loading area), and I can confirm it doesn't get us catch points. We do it because it's a quick and hard to defend way to get the ball across the field while still keeping control of it(like you said). Plus, the truss points are a nice bonus :) .
FearMyRush
04-03-2014, 19:05
Our team was doing the over the truss to the human player shot, and I can confirm it doesn't get us catch points. We do it because it's a quick and hard to defend way to get the ball across the field while still keeping control of it(like you said). Plus, the truss points are a nice bonus :) .
Yeah it is a solid strategy, and if you are being body blocked from moving it is a very effective way to earn a few points and move the ball down field at the same time. 2 birds 1 stone...
This is great advice that I want to share with my team... Thanks for your time and wisdom!
I was at the Alamo regional helping the CSAs out. I will describe the common issues I saw, not to pick on the robots, but so that mentors and students can better prepare and recover when/if they occur.
As mentioned, it is a rough game and will uncover loose connections on a robot. I saw Anderson connectors disconnect, crimps to battery fail, ethernet cables pulled out, and digital ribbon cables come loose. Friction fits can only resist so much force. Fasteners, zip ties, and velcro are highly recommended to keep heavy components stationary and to keep connectors firmly attached.
Please trace radio power wires and check that it is wired as shown in R43 of the Robot manual. Late on Saturday, I was still seeing inventive ways of powering the radio. Most reboots I saw were not the cRIO, but the radio or entire robot. The log messages will indicate which devices rebooted during a match.
I saw more joystick issues than I expected. The DS doesn't know how many joysticks are supposed to be plugged in, so the LED on the left indicates zero or nonzero. The diagnostics screen and setup screens show individual joysticks. If your team connects a joystick during a match, they do not need to restart the DS, reboot the laptop, or reboot the robot. The procedure is to take hands off the joysticks, press F1, and resume play. If you press F1 with a joystick or gamepad off center, you are affecting the zero-calibration and may find that the robot is biased or spinning in circles. If this happens, follow the F1 procedure. Please make sure drivers are aware of this.
Please test your code using the practice mode of the DS. This sends the same commands to the robot as the field during a match. Some teams test auto and tele very well, but only in isolation. The transition between auto to tele happens once per match. It is important, so please test it.
Robot bumper rules, including color, are being enforced quite strictly. I understand that robots may be bypassed or estopped if the bumpers are sagging, broken, or molting.
I believe all of the fog-horns at Alamo were because a ball was reintroduced into the field improperly. They do not necessarily mean that the field is having technical difficulties.
Finally, if your robot stops moving on the field, there are a number of things to make note of to help identify and resolve the issue quickly.
* On the robot, observe the RSL and radio LEDs. You can often determine whether the entire robot lost power, can see the radio reboot, and can even see Anderson connectors with nothing connected to them.
* On the DS, observe the LEDs on the left side. Flip to the Diagnostics screen and observe the ping status LEDs and diagnostic messages. On the charts tab, you can see the realtime traces of CPU usage, battery level, and communications -- at least you can see the data for the time when the robot was connected.
* After the match you can review the charts data and messages using the Log File Viewer. It can be launched on the Charts tab, scroll to the latest match, typically at the bottom.
* Observe any dashboard or LCD message that the programmers may have put into the code -- a broken encoder, an impossible limit switch combo, a spinning gyro, etc.
* Remember what was taking place on the field when the issue happened. Were you pushing? Were you hit? Did the robot behave normally before the issue?
Once off the field, discuss the symptoms and observations. Determine some likely points of failure. Safely restore power to the robot, look at LEDs and cables. If a particular device lost power, tap/wiggle/tug the device and both ends of the power cable to see if you can cause it to happen again. Look for bare wire than may have shorted to the frame or another wire. Look for melted or pinched wiring insulation. Be sure to test sensors and actuators for damage. Most FRC code doesn't behave well with sensor failures. If you don't find the issue, ask for assistance.
When something happens to the robot, things can get intense. People may have lots of questions or theories. They may remind you again and again to hurry up and fix it. This doesn't only happen in FIRST. I hate to see robot failures like these happen, but watching a team effectively debug and correct issues is one of my favorite elements of FIRST. I hope this info helps.
Greg McKaskle
If you read the catch rule, there are three interpretations that are (according to the english language) completely valid.
The text "CATCH: the event when a BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting the carpet, the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS, or a HUMAN PLAYER."
can mean two things
1.) a catch is when a "BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT'S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by"
a.) "that ROBOT before contacting the carpet"
b.) "the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS"
c.) "or a HUMAN PLAYER"
---------------------------
2.) a catch is when a "BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting the"
a.) "carpet"
b.)"the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS"
c.) "or a HUMAN PLAYER"
3.) (somebody else came up with this one) a catch is when a "BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT'S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting"
-a.) "the carpet"
-b.) "the ROBOT which SCORED"
---i.) "the TRUSS or"
---ii.) "a HUMAN PLAYER"
I'm not sure how to score the truss or a human player though.:rolleyes:
pntbll1313
04-03-2014, 19:26
If you read the catch rule, there are three interpretations that are (according to the english language) completely valid.
The text "CATCH: the event when a BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting the carpet, the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS, or a HUMAN PLAYER."
can mean two things
1.) a catch is when a "BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT'S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by"
a.) "that ROBOT before contacting the carpet"
b.) "the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS"
c.) "or a HUMAN PLAYER"
---------------------------
2.) a catch is when a "BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting the"
a.) "carpet"
b.)"the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS"
c.) "or a HUMAN PLAYER"
3.) (somebody else came up with this one) a catch is when a "BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT'S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting"
-a.) "the carpet"
-b.) "the ROBOT which SCORED"
---i.) "the TRUSS or"
---ii.) "a HUMAN PLAYER"
I'm not sure how to score the truss or a human player though.:rolleyes:
That's probably why they had to clarify it in a Q & A, too many interpretations ...
Q134 Q. "A CATCH occurs when a BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting the carpet, the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS, or HUMAN PLAYER." is confusing: Should we read "... is POSSESSED by 1 2 or 3", or "...before contacting 1 2 or 3"?
A. Before contacting 1, 2, or 3.
BBray_T1296
04-03-2014, 19:55
Under the definition of CATCH, no, the human does not contribute any catch points.
"A CATCH occurs when a BALL SCORED over the TRUSS by a ROBOT’S ALLIANCE partner is POSSESSED by that ROBOT before contacting the carpet, the ROBOT which SCORED the TRUSS, or HUMAN PLAYER."
However, having the ball go to the human player does help ensure that the ball stays in the alliance's control.
Am I reading this correct? Is it stating that a robot cannot catch its own ball (for catch points?)
Of course, regardless, catching your own ball has its benefits in the form of maintaining possession
Do you have an opinion about webstreaming at Inland Empire? Our team ran that one, and we're hoping to run it at UCD.
Unfortunately, no, because that was one of the ones that I couldn't watch. I was watching on theblueallaince. Only two of the streams worked (Central Illinois, Granite State), and one of those kept pausing at the worst times. I did eventually give up on the bluealliance feeds and just watched in two separate browser windows.
Guidelines for teams setting up streaming:
- Get the scoreboard in the frame somewhere, and be sure the scores are not washed out from overexposure. Especially this year, you can't tell what is happening unless you can see the scoreboard with the green assist bullets.
- If you can, get the audio feed from the announcer. If not, at least have some sort of audio pickup. Video with no audio is very confusing.
- A stationary camera located center field, with a nondistorted view of the entire field is best. Those courtside gopro videos are pretty much useless because they are so distorted you can't tell what's going on.
- Stream in letterboxed HD video (at least 720p, 1080p is better). The viewer should be able to read the bumper numbers of the robots, and everything on the scoreboard.
- Test your setup on Thursday to make sure things are working BEFORE the qualification matches start. Periodically check the stream to be sure it doesn't get messed up during the course of the day. I highly suggest that you have someone who isn't onsite checking the stream quality remotely and texting in QC checks at least every hour.
- Post links to your streams in a thread titled "Week XX streams" on CD, so people can find your stream to watch it.
Am I reading this correct? Is it stating that a robot cannot catch its own ball (for catch points?)
Yes, you are, and yes, it is. 399 displayed that ability at IE, I want to say during practice or very early quals, but points were never credited.
hammerhead_399
04-03-2014, 22:42
Yes, you are, and yes, it is. 399 displayed that ability at IE, I want to say during practice or very early quals, but points were never credited.
Yup, I think we got 2 in that match. The only benefit is the time saved from not chasing down the bouncing ball.
tavar321
13-03-2014, 20:04
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DPxUn4DB7DAv-uR1Qhl9A3LsnTMhq6tAbvc_ekZaS7U/edit
^ This document compiles content from many people’s posts on key subjects from http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127313 and http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127665&highlight=Week+Analysis
(Week 1 Analysis up till the beginning of page 28, and Week 2 Analysis up till pg 5). Team 1389 made this compilation to learn from others' opinions, observations and questions about tournament play so far. We are happy to share this document with other FIRST teams in the spirit of gracious professionalism.
LASlugger11
15-03-2014, 14:43
A good thing to have is a very fast robot with great pushing power.
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