2014 MAR Standings [Archive]

scottandme

03-03-2014, 15:25

Went through the doc really quickly and didn't see anything out of the ordinary.

I was really surprised to see how 'age bonus' points work out... There are some teams that have played at one event, and are ranked behind a 1st year rookie team that hasn't played at all. That'll make things interesting.

Also worth considering the 8 point bonus for winning RAS and the 5 point bonus for Rookie Inspiration. There are 5 rookie teams in MAR this season. Team 5113 is guaranteed to win RAS at Lenape, since they are the only rookie team attending. Not sure if they'll get Rookie Inspiration also. The 4 other rookie teams will divide the remaining 3 RAS and Rookie Inspiration awards (SCH, BR, CLI). No rookies attended MO.

So the rookie impact is much stronger in MAR than in other regions due to our low count.

All told, it'll be 10 points for everyone plus their share of the 52 points from rookie awards, so in effect it's more like a 20 point rookie bonus.

Team 5113 has essentially already qualified for MAR champs with their guaranteed haul of 52 points - they're a great little inbound bot and were great to work with in our match at Horsham.

ENeyman

03-03-2014, 17:38

Yay, we are last! :P

Hallry

03-03-2014, 18:17

Team 5113 is guaranteed to win RAS at Lenape, since they are the only rookie team attending.

But, they can't. You can only get Chairman's, EI, and RAS once per district system, and they won it already at Hatboro.

Based on my quick analysis of the 5 rookies and the events they're competing at, it seems like only 3 or 4 of the teams will be possible to win it logistically at the districts depending on who wins it where, meaning either 2 or 1 won't qualify to compete for it at Lehigh.

nlknauss

03-03-2014, 19:00

But, they can't. You can only get Chairman's, EI, and RAS once per district system, and they won it already at Hatboro.

Based on my quick analysis of the 5 rookies and the events they're competing at, it seems like only 3 or 4 of the teams will be possible to win it logistically at the districts depending on who wins it where, meaning either 2 or 1 won't qualify to compete for it at Lehigh.

I believe Scott is correct unless the supplemental rules state otherwise. Events with one rookie traditionally give only the RAS award out so 5113 should be lined up to win that award at Lenape...spoiler alert!

I'm glad to see 5113's success. I've been working with them since last spring and they've done a lot of work to ensure a successful rookie season.

Nate

Hallry

03-03-2014, 19:07

I believe Scott is correct unless the supplemental rules state otherwise. Events with one rookie traditionally give only the RAS award out so 5113 should be lined up to win that award at Lenape...spoiler alert!

As per the new District Standard Points Ranking System (http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Resources/FRC_District_Standard_Points_Ranking_System_r1.pdf ), "District Teams will only be able to win FRC’s most prestigious awards – Chairman’s Award, Engineering Inspiration Award, and Rookie All Star Award – once per season at the District level. This supports the broader distribution of those awards."

nlknauss

03-03-2014, 19:10

As per the new District Standard Points Ranking System (http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Resources/FRC_District_Standard_Points_Ranking_System_r1.pdf ), "District Teams will only be able to win FRC’s most prestigious awards – Chairman’s Award, Engineering Inspiration Award, and Rookie All Star Award – once per season at the District level. This supports the broader distribution of those awards."

Thanks for the clarification!

Joe Ross

04-03-2014, 16:01

Let me know if you spot anything incorrect.

Your rankings match what I calculated here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1353419#post1353419

quad

08-03-2014, 00:48

Just as a FYI for those curious,

The MAR rankings have been posted on the MAR website (http://www.midatlanticrobotics.com/).

There is also a blog post (http://www.midatlanticrobotics.com/blog/week-1-rankings-posted/) outlining the number or District Championship slots, 55, and the number of MAR slots at St. Louis, 18.

The winning alliance members at the MAR CMP are guaranteed slots to the FIRST CMP, like last year. PNW and NE do not guarantee the winning alliance members FIRST CMP slots. Don't know about FiM for this year. Last year the FiM champs were awarded slots automatically.

For 2014 MAR has 5 Rookie teams, 9 2nd year teams, and 9 3rd year teams.

Team Distribution for the MAR events:

HH MO SCH CLI LS BR
40 38 15 14 3 0 1st event
0 0 19 19 35 37 2nd event
0 0 0 0 2 8 3rd event

In 2013 the last team to be invited to the MAR CMP, after declines, was ranked 69th with 39 ranking points and after the MAR CMP the last team invited to the FIRST CMP by ranking was ranked 12th with 182 ranking points (the 1st ranked team had 337 points).

Hallry

08-03-2014, 11:34

after the MAR CMP the last team invited to the FIRST CMP by ranking was ranked 12th with 182 ranking points (the 1st ranked team had 337 points).

But remember, more teams will qualify based on points this year from MAR Champs to World Champs. In fact, it's double the previous amount.

scottandme

08-03-2014, 11:58

But remember, more teams will qualify based on points this year from MAR Champs to World Champs. In fact, it's double the previous amount.

Double the 2012 amount, not the 2013 amount. Also, worth considering that we will now lose slots for outside regional qualifications. 11 and 2016 would have pulled slots last year, and 2590 and possibly 341 would have pulled slots in 2012. Based on the teams travelling in 2014, I wouldn't expect that trend to end. We'll know by week 5, with only 2234 competing week 6.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqCax1FanfCIdGpEeGV1eW1QOGZxSXdFQ19FSk56a VE&usp=drive_web#gid=22

2012: 12 Slots
3 Winners
2 CA
1 EI
1 RAS
5 Points

2013: 14 Slots
3 Winners
2 CA
2 EI
1 RAS
6 Points

2014: 18 Slots
3 Winners
2 CA
2 EI
1 RAS
10 Points

Hallry

08-03-2014, 12:13

Double the 2012 amount, not the 2013 amount.

Thanks, I forgot that our increased World Champs allotment allowed an additional team attend via points last year.

Jscout11

08-03-2014, 12:24

Just noticed 2607 is registered for the Virginia regional. That brings the total number of MAR regional teams up to eleven

rocpe

09-03-2014, 15:23

1626 from Metuchen will be competing for the first time this season this weekend at Clifton. We are looking to have an after school "out-of-bag" experience with a fairly local team with a full practice field so we can try to dial in our shooter and practice assists with another robot.We saved about two hours.

dellagd

09-03-2014, 15:59

Double the 2012 amount, not the 2013 amount. Also, worth considering that we will now lose slots for outside regional qualifications. 11 and 2016 would have pulled slots last year, and 2590 and possibly 341 would have pulled slots in 2012. Based on the teams travelling in 2014, I wouldn't expect that trend to end. We'll know by week 5, with only 2234 competing week 6.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqCax1FanfCIdGpEeGV1eW1QOGZxSXdFQ19FSk56a VE&usp=drive_web#gid=22

~snip~

So theoretically it is possible that, say, 6 of those 11 teams could win their other regional they are attending and MAR would be left with only 4 teams getting World spots off of points?

scottandme

09-03-2014, 16:04

So theoretically it is possible that, say, 6 of those 11 teams could win their other regional they are attending and MAR would be left with only 4 teams getting World spots off of points?

Yes, any method of qualifying would remove a slot (Win, CA, EI, RAS).

Hallry

09-03-2014, 16:11

scottandme

09-03-2014, 16:16

Scott, I have a question. Let's say fictitious MAR team 000 wins the (now) fictitious Brazil Regional, and qualifies for World Champs. However, they don't win on the field at MAR Champs, nor Chairman's, EI, RAS, nor are in the next top 10 ranked. Since they only qualified for World Champs outside of MAR, does MAR still lose a slot allotted for World Champs?

Yup, that's how I read the rules. MAR would essentially just pretend that they finished in the points.

I think the only exception would be if a HoF team (103, 341, 365) qualified outside, since they're already exempted from counting against the MAR total.

Edit:

Here's the rule listed below. It doesn't say what slot gets removed, but I would assume a "points" slot.

District Teams do not earn points for their actions at any Regionals they may attend, but are still eligible for Team
awards at those events, and any benefits that may go along with winning those awards, such as earning their way to the
FIRST Championship. However, if a District Team does earn a slot at the FIRST Championship while attending a Regional
event, that slot does count against the total Championship allocation the District is receiving for the season.

Hallry

09-03-2014, 16:20

Edit:

Here's the rule listed below. It doesn't say what slot gets removed, but I would assume a "points" slot.

District Teams do not earn points for their actions at any Regionals they may attend, but are still eligible for Team
awards at those events, and any benefits that may go along with winning those awards, such as earning their way to the
FIRST Championship. However, if a District Team does earn a slot at the FIRST Championship while attending a Regional
event, that slot does count against the total Championship allocation the District is receiving for the season.

I was just gonna get to this :p. Yeah, as far as I can tell, there is no mention of what slot is removed. It could be one of the two Chairman's or EI slots for all it says.

thefro526

11-03-2014, 15:34

Yup, that's how I read the rules. MAR would essentially just pretend that they finished in the points.

I think the only exception would be if a HoF team (103, 341, 365) qualified outside, since they're already exempted from counting against the MAR total.

Edit:

Here's the rule listed below. It doesn't say what slot gets removed, but I would assume a "points" slot.

Scott, I'm still not entirely sure what happens in the case of HOF teams, there was a lot of discussion about this during the later part of 2013 and early 2014, but I can't remember if we conclusively had an answer. If we apply the wildcard rules/logic to this instance, an HOF team would remove a slot from their district assuming their regional slot was their first qualification of 2014. That being said - the slot may also be passed down, since HOF teams are not 'supposed' to count towards a region's slot allotment.

Regarding which slots are removed, yes, in the case of an outside qualification one of the 'points' slots are removed since they're essentially 'open' slots for qualification.

DonRotolo

17-03-2014, 19:03

Scott, I'm still not entirely sure what happens in the case of HOF teams, there was a lot of discussion about this during the later part of 2013 and early 2014, but I can't remember if we conclusively had an answer. If we apply the wildcard rules/logic to this instance, an HOF team would remove a slot from their district assuming their regional slot was their first qualification of 2014. HoF teams will not consume a slot even if they win (at) a regional, that's what I was told by Ed Petrillo.

scottandme

17-03-2014, 20:43

HoF teams will not consume a slot even if they win (at) a regional, that's what I was told by Ed Petrillo.

Thanks for the clarification Don. It may be a stopgap, but the intent of that rule is still lost on me, and sets the stage for some problematic scenarios. I think "reverse-wildcard" is the best name for it.

As of now we have at least 7 teams with a legitimate shots at some flavor of a blue banner. I'm sure some of those teams will/would qualify via MAR points too, but the possibility of walking into MAR CMP with only 3 slots open to teams via points is pretty drastic. Obviously unlikely that all 7 teams come back with banners, but stranger things have happened. Something to watch as weeks 4 & 5 creep up on us.

On an unrelated note: sheet is updated, 38 teams have played both of their district events. Looking like the cutoff for MARCMP will be somewhere in the 50's depending on the number of teams that decline the invitation.

As for World CMP, there are 121 teams registered (one more day for week 3 qualifiers to register). There are 284 more slots to be gained, so we're trending towards the 400 number again depending on declines, double qualifiers, and wild cards.

Hallry

17-03-2014, 21:15

On an unrelated note: sheet is updated, 38 teams have played both of their district events. Looking like the cutoff for MARCMP will be somewhere in the 50's depending on the number of teams that decline the invitation.

As for World CMP, there are 121 teams registered (one more day for week 3 qualifiers to register). There are 284 more slots to be gained, so we're trending towards the 400 number again depending on declines, double qualifiers, and wild cards.

Just for sources, according to this FRC Blog post (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-Standard-District-Points-Ranking-System%E2%80%93More-Info), there will again be 400 teams at the World Championships in St. Louis, and according to this MAR Blog post (http://www.midatlanticrobotics.com/blog/week-1-rankings-posted/), 55 teams will be invited to the MAR District Championships at Lehigh University.

scottandme

17-03-2014, 21:33

Just for sources, according to this FRC Blog post (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-Standard-District-Points-Ranking-System%E2%80%93More-Info), there will again be 400 teams at St. Louis. Somewhere I saw that 55 teams will be invited to Lehigh this year, but I can't seem to find it right now.

Yup, mostly a reference to expect a very short waitlist (if any) for WCMP this year.

Here's the MAR blog referencing 55 teams.

http://www.midatlanticrobotics.com/blog/category/mar/

For comparison: we went down the rankings list to the 65th ranked team to get 49 teams at MAR CMP last year (16 declines), and we went down to the 64th ranked team to get 53 teams at MAR CMP in 2012 (11 declines). Hopefully the extra week gap between district and DCMP will help fix this a bit, but I think it might be a struggle to add even more teams to the event since we have actually shrunk as a district compared to 2013.

Lil' Lavery

17-03-2014, 23:56

On an unrelated note: sheet is updated, 38 teams have played both of their district events. Looking like the cutoff for MARCMP will be somewhere in the 50's depending on the number of teams that decline the invitation.

Last year, the 50th placed team had 47 points. The last team to accept an invite, I believe, had 39 points. With five more invite spots and no growth in the region, how are you determining your "somewhere in the 50s" number? Are the first and second year bonus points really that much of a factor?

AGPapa

18-03-2014, 06:56

Are the first and second year bonus points really that much of a factor?

Also remember that this year the third team on an alliance is getting more elims points and that all of those 2 point awards are now 5 points.

I don't expect the cutoff to be above 50 after all of the declines, but it seems like a reasonable guess for where the 55th rank team will be.

scottandme

18-03-2014, 08:12

Last year, the 50th placed team had 47 points. The last team to accept an invite, I believe, had 39 points. With five more invite spots and no growth in the region, how are you determining your "somewhere in the 50s" number? Are the first and second year bonus points really that much of a factor?

That would be the cutoff for the 55th ranked team, and I would guess it would be in the low 50's - thought I didn't type that for some reason. No idea how many declines we'll have this year - hopefully fewer with the MAR grant system better developed and more time to get registered and paid. Though we do have more 3rd event teams this year, haven't looked in depth at how those teams are doing/how many points they'll pull from the system through elims/awards.

The overall point system has inflated by more than just rookie points. I'm assuming we have 108 teams this year (136 & 896 no show at Clifton?), we had 109 last year with a few only doing 1 event.

Qual Points - same structure, roughly same # teams
Elim Selection - the old system (10/8 pts per round) yielded 196 points per event, the new model yields 210.
Awards - old system gave 49 pts max, new system gives 86 points max
Rookies - 95 points total

So last year we had 5336 points across 109 teams. ~49/team if we're looking at an average - which roughly works for a lazy calculation of a 55 team cutoff. Real cutoff at #55 was 45 points. So a little inflated, but not too bad.

This year we should have 5891 points across 108 teams. Doesn't count any points lost to 3rd event teams in elims or awards. Gives us ~54.5 points/team as an average. So we're looking at increase of roughly 5pts/team from the changes to the point system.

From the 38 teams who have finished both events, the middle of the pack (#19) has 57 points. That grouping of teams looks better than average though.

Lil' Lavery

18-03-2014, 11:23

Forgot about the changes to the elimination scoring and award points. Thanks for the clarification!

quad

18-03-2014, 15:42

The 11 teams registered for a Regional and their current District Points/Rank/# Events District
Team Regional Week Points Rank Events
56 Greater DC w5 103 1 2
1218 Greater Pittsburgh w5 93 4 2
11 Hawaii w5 79 6 2
225 Greater DC w5 65 15 1
303 Buckeye w4 63 20 2
341 Finger Lakes w5 62 21 1
2016 Queen City w5 56 29 2
2607 Virginia w4 48 37 1
2234 Lone Star w6 45 44 2
555 Windsor Essex
Great Lakes w6 42 48 2
204 SBPLI Long Island w5 12 83 1

Wenbin Li

19-03-2014, 21:48

So, if 7 team goes to an outside regional and they all win, that means that the spots will go from 10 to 3 at MAR on teams who go to worlds just on ranking?

scottandme

19-03-2014, 21:57

So, if 7 team goes to an outside regional and they all win, that means that the spots will go from 10 to 3 at MAR on teams who go to worlds just on ranking?

Yes.

Jscout11

22-03-2014, 16:33

Congratulations to Team 2607 on winning the Virginia Regional.

This means that 2607 will consume the first "points" spot from MAR, leaving 9 spots left.

Hallry

22-03-2014, 17:22

scottandme

22-03-2014, 22:39

Another question. Let's say the three teams that win at Lehigh also qualify for STL outside of MAR. Are the three winning spots converted to become additional ranking-point spots for the next top ranked teams?

Based on the old MAR/FiM rules (2012+2013), the MARCMP winner (and other "award") slots couldn't be passed down or inherited. So when 341 won in 2012, that slot was lost (qualified via HoF and via winning Boston Regional). Same applied to the CA/EI/RAS awards, though we never saw a team double qualify that way (or decline). Only the points based slots would pass over a team that was already qualified.

So assuming that stays the same, the question would be if winning an award slot at MAR CMP would trump a slot earned at a previous outside regional, and move the team from eating a "points" slot to the corresponding "award" slot. I would hope the answer is yes - "point" slots are awarded from top to bottom skipping over the MARCMP winners and award winners as they trickle down.

AGPapa

23-03-2014, 19:47

I just updated everything for Lenape, once again, let me know if you spot anything incorrect.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AizgHBYEeVnwdDJVeFBzWTduazNLV3I2Skw5dlh4a FE&usp=drive_web#gid=1

The median number of points for team who have competed two events is 55.5. Expect the cutoff to be slightly lower than this. Declines and a large number of 3rd event teams at BR should decrease the cutoff.

I'm not sure if the new points model did a good job sorting out the teams. Good teams like 2729, 2495, 708 and 1712 are under this 55 point cutoff. Hopefully they'll still qualify for MAR champs because they have good robots that deserve to be there. I'm not sure if the old points model would have done a better job; once BR ends I'll recalculate the rankings with last year's point systems to see the difference in who qualifies.

Wayne C.

24-03-2014, 13:40

Not that it matters overall but team 25 did win their first QF match so should have 5 more pts.

Just happy if we qualify....

Wc

scottandme

24-03-2014, 14:09

Not that it matters overall but team 25 did win their first QF match so should have 5 more pts.

Just happy if we qualify....

Wc

http://www3.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Resources/FRC_District_Standard_Points_Ranking_System.pdf

"5 points for every match won in which a Team’s robot participated,
only for the Alliance that wins the series"

That rule exists to account for replacement robots in elims.

BandChick

24-03-2014, 14:28

AGPapa

24-03-2014, 15:09

Thanks for keeping up with this, Scott! It's nice to check and see how things are going.

I noticed that 1089's QPs are wrong -- we won 6 qualifying matches yesterday, and should have 12 qualifying points, and 27 total. We're marked right now with having 18 QPs, and 33 total.

Thanks, sorry. I manually entered the data for the three teams who went to Lenape for their first event. I must have taken the overall record instead of their qualification record for those three teams. I'll fix it now.

EDIT: Actually your team was the only one with the issue. The other two teams didn't win any elimination matches so it didn't affect them.

Wayne C.

24-03-2014, 16:56

http://www3.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Resources/FRC_District_Standard_Points_Ranking_System.pdf

"5 points for every match won in which a Team’s robot participated,
only for the Alliance that wins the series"

That rule exists to account for replacement robots in elims.

My bad. Saw the points but not the win being necessary

Sorry

Brandon_L

25-03-2014, 15:36

Scott, is there a significance to the teams highlighted in green? MAR CMP mathematical lock or something?

AGPapa

25-03-2014, 16:53

Scott, is there a significance to the teams highlighted in green? MAR CMP mathematical lock or something?

The teams highlighted in light green are predicted to be over the cutoff, not a mathematical lock.

After reading you comment I implemented a way to find out if a team is a lock. It's based off of Brian Lucas's paper (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2805?) from last year. The teams who are a lock are now highlighted in dark green.

scottandme

25-03-2014, 17:52

Scott, is there a significance to the teams highlighted in green? MAR CMP mathematical lock or something?

Antonio covered it - but keep in mind that I haven't (nor has Antonio to my knowledge) been keeping track of tiebreakers, so tied teams may or may not be in the right order. The MAR site has the tiebreakers as they currently stand. We'll likely be updating the sheet as the event progresses this weekend, should have a very good idea of the cutoff after alliance selections, since ~70% of the points will have been allocated by then.

Bridgewater is also the largest event, and will only yield and average of ~24 pts/team (not sure if 136 is going to show up or not). Clifton gave away 29.16 pts/team - which is basically a 2nd year team bonus for everyone who attended.

Looking at point accumulations for the 8 teams attending Bridgewater as a 3rd event - I would expect 6 of them to be eating up elimination points. That means the cutoff at #55 is probably going to be a good bit lower than the current median of ~55 points. Did 5 minutes of lazy point modeling, came out with 49 points for the #55 team.

After that - it's all up to declines and where the CA winner from Bridgewater is sitting in the standings (433 is probably barely going to make the cut via points once we see a few declines).

If anybody has information about teams planning to skip MAR CMP, I can add that to the sheet so we have a good projection. As of now all I've seen is that 103 is planning on skipping.

rrossbach

25-03-2014, 23:18

If anybody has information about teams planning to skip MAR CMP, I can add that to the sheet so we have a good projection. As of now all I've seen is that 103 is planning on skipping.

2607 plans to skip MAR CMP this year as well, since we're attending St. Louis

- Ron
Team #2607 controls mentor

Johnbot

29-03-2014, 17:29

Congratulations to team 225, TechFire, on their Greater DC Regional win!

Akash Rastogi

29-03-2014, 17:30

Great win for 225! Congratulations folks!

AGPapa

29-03-2014, 18:39

Congratulations to 2016 for winning the Engineering Inspiration award at Queen City.

Currently MAR has lost three point slots to
2607- Virginia Winner
225- DC Winner
2016- Queen City Engineering Inspiration

Teams who can still remove points slots are
11-Hawaii (This week, but a 6 hour delay)
555-Windsor-Essex (Week 6)
2234-Lone Star (Week 6)

Dad1279

29-03-2014, 18:59

scottandme

29-03-2014, 20:41

So if 5 'MAR' spots are given out at regional events, and at the MAR District Championship Chairman's, Engineering Inspiration and Rookie All-Star Award winners take the first 3 spots, the winning alliance don't all get to go to St. Louis??

I would think MAR teams will be more motivated to go to regional events next year than the MAR Championship.

Not sure exactly sure what you're asking, but the current system means that teams that don't go out of district are at risk of losing a slot to teams that do, and MAR as a district is punished for having teams travel and win bids to champs. As of now we'll have 15 (down from 18) slots to give out at MAR Champs, only 7 of which will be "points" based slots (down from 10).

Seems to be another rule made by FIRST that was only halfway thought through. Makes the region championship watered down in quality as teams are able to bypass it, removes the ability of the point system and the award system to properly choose teams to represent the district at World Champs, and punishes teams that choose not to travel.

Either get rid of the "reverse-wildcard" punishment for districts, or don't allow district teams to qualify at outside regionals.

scottandme

29-03-2014, 20:58

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AizgHBYEeVnwdDJVeFBzWTduazNLV3I2Skw5dlh4a FE&usp=sharing

Standings updated after Day 1 at Bridgewater, looks like everyone with 56 points or above should be a mathematical lock for MARCMP. We may have a few more slots depending on what 225 and 2016 decide (225 is rank 3 with 105 points, 2016 is right on the cutoff at rank 43 with 56 points).

Dad1279

29-03-2014, 21:42

Not sure exactly sure what you're asking, but the current system means that teams that don't go out of district are at risk of losing a slot to teams that do, and MAR as a district is punished for having teams travel and win bids to champs. As of now we'll have 15 (down from 18) slots to give out at MAR Champs, only 7 of which will be "points" based slots (down from 10).
......

So I was confused [wrong;) ].... 7 'points slots', Chairman's, Engineering Inspiration and Rookie All-Star Award(3 slots), what are the other 5 slots?

nlknauss

29-03-2014, 22:00

So I was confused [wrong;) ].... 7 'points slots', Chairman's, Engineering Inspiration and Rookie All-Star Award(3 slots), what are the other 5 slots?

Not a problem. Here's what the 18 WC qualification spots in MAR look like now:

3 Slots claimed by teams at outside regions (2607, 225, 2016)
3 MAR Region Winners
2 MAR Region Chairman's Award Winners
2 MAR Engineering Inspiration
1 MAR Rookie Allstar
7 District Point Qualifiers (was 10)

It is rather disappointing to see spots disappear at outside regionals. I agree with what Scott seems to be saying in that it does take away from the competition within our region by earning points and at the region championship. Hopefully this is addressed one way or another before next year.

Akash Rastogi

29-03-2014, 23:07

11 just got Chairman's at Hawaii. One more MAR spot!

nlknauss

30-03-2014, 08:12

11 just got Chairman's at Hawaii. One more MAR spot!

Congrats 11! Well deserved for your world-class program!

Here's the list of remaining world championships qualification spots:

4 Slots claimed by teams at outside regions (2607, 225, 2016, 11)
3 MAR Region Winners
2 MAR Region Chairman's Award Winners
2 MAR Engineering Inspiration
1 MAR Rookie Allstar
6 District Point Qualifiers (was 10)

AGPapa

30-03-2014, 09:00

looks like everyone with 56 points or above should be a mathematical lock for MARCMP.

Unfortunately it seems like the mathematically highest cutoff is actually 59 points. I didn't make the Mathematical Cutoff sheet the most user-friendly and the top section has to be manually updated.

quad

30-03-2014, 15:21

AGPapa

30-03-2014, 15:29

FYI,for the future.
Noticed this on the previous clinching calculation also, but is the BR DCA team and any DCA teams ranked below the current team the clinch calculation is being calculated for being taken into account? They would take up slots and the cutoff would be less than 55.

The "teams needed to tie" right now is 55-(current rank). I assumed that the BR DCA team will be ranked above the cutoff. So far in MAR every DCA winner has been above the point cutoff so this seems like a fair assumption to make. I suppose that I could(should) skip over the DCA teams when calculating the points needed to tie.

Currently the 55th rank team has 48 points. I'm expecting a few teams to jump them (293, 1089 and 4361) and bring the cutoff up to about 50 points.

orthoravioli

30-03-2014, 15:53

TechFire 225 is planning on and looking forward to MAR champs! See you all there!!

scottandme

30-03-2014, 17:53

Ok, everything should be updated - did most of the tiebreakers for the bubble down to the ~70's ranked teams.

Everyone with 51 points or more is currently qualified, along with team 433 (48 points, CA qualifier).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AizgHBYEeVnwdDJVeFBzWTduazNLV3I2Skw5dlh4a FE&usp=sharing

I'll update the sheet as teams are registered for MAR CMP. Feel free to post here and/or PM me if you know a team that will/won't be attending MAR CMP, and I can update the cutoff/sheet as appropriate.

For fun: points in MAR from 2012-2014, teams ranked 1-55.

http://i.imgur.com/BOF4XSh.png

maxweberh

30-03-2014, 19:11

Hey,

I am a little upset after reading that teams that qualified for spots outside the district model take away spots from teams who only compete inside the district model. What is the point of the district model if the MAR Championship rewards teams to travel outside of the district, and punishes those teams that only compete inside the district?

To me, albeit I will be competing for those now depleted 6 or so seats, this is ridiculous. Why should we as a third year team, who reached the MAR Championship after winning a district event, should be punished and forced to do even better to win less slots. To add to that, teams who have already "clinched" are also competing in this event. Why should we stay in the district model at all? When we could instead travel to the Pittsburgh Regional and compete in Regional events instead of playing in the district model.

The district model IMO is great, however when teams are rewarded for bypassing the district and punish teams who competed in district matches alone, why even hold the MAR Champs when most of the teams awarded spots will not even need their robot to compete. For example Chairman's, Rookie, & Ei now occupy about the same amount of non-winning alliance spots left. I know the idea of scrapping the MAR Champs itself is beyond ridiculous. However to me this feels like an unjust dilution of the reward for even attending MAR Champs.

Add to that many of the spots clinched were clinched through awards, not winning an event. Why should a team at the MAR Champs be punished if a team wins an award outside the district?

My rough solution to this problem (or at least causation) would be to let those teams who qualified outside the district, compete in the MAR Champs, but if they are to win any other seats, skip them and keep the same amount of open slots to Worlds open to other teams.

This is not to discredit anyones hard work or achievements just to point out a flaw in the way MAR distributes it's seats to Worlds

Disclaimer: My opinions do not reflect in anyway the opinion of my team or sponsors, nor am I claiming all facts 100% true.

Steven Donow

30-03-2014, 19:25

The logic (I believe/IIRC) in 'taking away' spots for outside qualifications stems from the idea that once district systems become more and more widespread, the amount of qualifying spots (ie. excluding O&S, HoF, Championship Winners, Championship EIs, etc...) should remain proportional to the number of robots at Championships and that district system's population vs all of FIRST.

Foster

30-03-2014, 19:37

This is not to discredit anyones hard work or achievements just to point out a flaw in the way MAR distributes it's seats to Worlds.

Three things:

1 - FIRST decides how the distribution works. Don't whine at MAR, call Frank at FIRST. While you are on the phone talking to Frank discuss how much money they take from the regional organizations. (*)

2 - If a team has the desire, support and money to attend another regional and the skills to win it, YAY THEM. We have a MAR team that traveled to Hawaii and flat out won. We should be impressed, try to learn from them and loudly applaud their accomplishment. Oh wait three other teams traveled away and also proved that MAR isn't a group of little toddlers, we build and compete with AMAZING robots. YAY THEM!!!

3- MAR and the others have done a huge amount to improve the robot cost per match. Regional teams get far more plays for their dollars than any other teams. In the future with the growth of FIRST (yes! more teams) everyone will be in regions. It will take some time, but the balance will occur. We are doing competition robotics, more competition and more inspiration is what we are working towards.

(*) No disrespect intended. I'm a huge Frank fan, he seems to be the guy that would finally be willing to talk to you if you have issues.

maxweberh

30-03-2014, 19:46

If a team has the desire, support and money to attend another regional and the skills to win it, YAY THEM. We have a MAR team that traveled to Hawaii and flat out won. We should be impressed, try to learn from them and loudly applaud their accomplishment. Oh wait three other teams traveled away and also proved that MAR isn't a group of little toddlers, we build and compete with AMAZING robots. YAY THEM!!!

I don't believe I ever said MAR doesn't produce world class robots, I think its great that teams are able to travel to other regionals and more power to them. What I AM saying is that to me, It doesn't make any sense that teams who cannot afford to travel to multiple districts and regionals have less seats at the District Championship to win, based on the performance of teams who can afford to travel outside of the district.

DonRotolo

30-03-2014, 19:48

Brandon_L

30-03-2014, 19:49

2495 & 2729 are flipped, we have more alliance selection points (tiebreaker) and should be in 55th (as reflected in the official rankings)

Three things:
2 - If a team has the desire, support and money to attend another regional and the skills to win it, YAY THEM. We have a MAR team that traveled to Hawaii and flat out won. We should be impressed, try to learn from them and loudly applaud their accomplishment. Oh wait three other teams traveled away and also proved that MAR isn't a group of little toddlers, we build and compete with AMAZING robots. YAY THEM!!!

I think it is fair that teams can travel and win, I'm not complaining. I think they should be looked up to as an example. Especially the folks over on 11. However, I do not think that at this point in time this rule should be in place. It makes sense when we move more into the district system. But someone was going to win chairmans in HI anyway, what difference does it make who it is? It just takes a slot away from someone else that earned it, and creates less 'earned' spots at CMP

Jscout11

30-03-2014, 19:57

11 and 193 do intend on attending the MAR championships at this time.

scottandme

30-03-2014, 20:40

As a preface, this is probably most relevant to MAR (as opposed to FiM, NE, PNW) as we have a few unique characteristics that exacerbate the problem.

1. We have a good number of teams that continue to travel to outside events, and qualify via those outside events.
2. We have a comparatively small number of slots to award, being the smallest district (though in the same rough proportion as FiM, NE, PNW).
3. We have the largest % of slots devoted to "awards" at our region championship, and losing any number of slots has a bigger impact on remaining "point" slots. I haven't been able to find the distribution for FiM/NE/PNW for this year - if anyone has those, it would be helpful.

The logic (I believe/IIRC) in 'taking away' spots for outside qualifications stems from the idea that once district systems become more and more widespread, the amount of qualifying spots (ie. excluding O&S, HoF, Championship Winners, Championship EIs, etc...) should remain proportional to the number of robots at Championships and that district system's population vs all of FIRST.

That was the rough explanation I remember as well...

It doesn't hold up to scrutiny too well though.

1. As districts become more widespread, there will be fewer regionals to attend/earn slots at, reducing the significance of the problem. The Regional to District transition is a long way off for many regions, if it ever happens at all. Doesn't really make sense to be solving a problem that doesn't exist yet, unless it doesn't cause any unwanted side-effects.

1a. That explanation only "fixes" the problem for the district region. The outside Regional is not compensated in any way for an "outside" team coming in and winning a bid - same as it ever was. So that undermines that particular explanation.

2. FIRST hasn't (to my knowledge) made an effort to make CMP slots proportional to any particular locale/community. No value judgement there - depends what you think the purpose of WCMP is. If it's to give every region a fair shot at attending, the slots should be proportional. If it's to showcase the best robots - we should have way more slots for Michigan and Ontario teams. This has previously caused teams to flee highly competitive regions for less competitive ones, and who can blame them. Ontario is to thank for the current wildcard system, which is a pretty good band-aid to make Regionals more "District-like".

3. It reduces the efficacy of the point system in awarding the District Champion and Point slots. One of the main benefits (IMO) of the district point model is that it allows high-performing but unlucky teams to advance, and reduces the number of low-performing but lucky teams that advance. As far as I remember, that was a primary focus of the Michigan teams & mentors who designed the system. Worst case, a district championship will give a "winning" bid to the 24th best team in the region (out of 110 to 200+ teams). Much better than the 24th best team at a 30+ team regional.

3b. It distorts the balance of slots awarded by the district. Slots can be lost by any method, but they are only removed from the "points" slots. Fewer of those high performing but unlucky teams get to attend WCMP. MAR will effectively award 3 slots via Chairman's award, 3 slots via Engineering Inspiration, and another 2 slots via winning events. So instead of 5/18 slots being awarded for RAS/CA/EI, we're now at 7/18 slots (39%). Pretty big jump. For reference, Michigan gave 5/27 slots for those awards last year (19%). See point 3 from the top.

Again, this is all through the lens of my personal preference for the district model to reward more of those high performing but unlucky teams, instead of giving out an excessive % of culture awards. I think I'm in line with the initial FiM perspective on that point. Our team has been honored to win DCA awards the last 3 years running - before eventually losing to other very worthy programs at our Region Championship. Would I turn down a bid to CMP if we ended up winning RCA at an outside regional? No, but it makes sense to let the District sort out the most competitive applicants and send those teams to WCMP on their relative merits.

As for solutions? If the intent is truly to evenly distribute slots to WCMP - then don't allow District teams to qualify via outside Regionals. Exclude them from the CA/EI/RAS judging process, as they will still have the ability to compete for those within district (don't even need the robot at DCMP to win those). If they win the event, open up a wildcard slot for a Regional system team. The only disadvantage that remains is the lateness of qualifying for Worlds, but I don't think there's a good solution for that with the current District structure. Gives all district teams an equal bite at the apple, with the ability to still travel out of region.

scottandme

30-03-2014, 20:47

2495 & 2729 are flipped, we have more alliance selection points (tiebreaker) and should be in 55th (as reflected in the official rankings)

Fixed, I didn't bother sorting you guys initially since you were above the cutoff.

Akash Rastogi

30-03-2014, 20:51

I don't believe I ever said MAR doesn't produce world class robots, I think its great that teams are able to travel to other regionals and more power to them. What I AM saying is that to me, It doesn't make any sense that teams who cannot afford to travel to multiple districts and regionals have less seats at the District Championship to win, based on the performance of teams who can afford to travel outside of the district.

No need to jump on Max's back here. He's a former student of mine and knows very well what hard work and dedication are and what it takes to be able to travel outside the system and still win awards and banners.

Edit: Scott has a good summary of things. Thanks!

Brandon_L

30-03-2014, 21:04

Foster

30-03-2014, 21:15

I don't believe I ever said MAR doesn't produce world class robots, I think its great that teams are able to travel to other regionals and more power to them. What I AM saying is that to me, It doesn't make any sense that teams who cannot afford to travel to multiple districts and regionals have less seats at the District Championship to win, based on the performance of teams who can afford to travel outside of the district.

That is part of the inspire. Do well in MAR, then the next year, fly outside your zone and do well. New reports in that the upstart Miss Daisy 341, flew to the NY Tundra, trimmed Ice Kings of GRR, but failed to capture the giant snowball.

Wenbin Li

30-03-2014, 21:19

How many points does a team gets for winning a match at MARs?:confused:

scottandme

30-03-2014, 21:20

I don't see it mentioned anywhere in the district rules, but I'm assuming if a team that already is qualified for worlds (say 225) were to rank high enough to take one of the remaining points slots they would be passed over instead of the slot vanishing correct?

That was the case in 2012 and 2013. We were skipped over in 2012, and 11 was skipped over in 2013. Points slots were/are? the only ones that "trickle down". In this instance 225 wouldn't eat another slot, but you can essentially assign 11,225,2016,2607 point slots #1 through #4 right now.

I have no idea what will happen if one of those teams ends up winning MAR Championship as well. The document is lacking in a number of very important details, and seems to be only half-complete in current form. You would think that whoever made the document would have taken the time to think through and address all possible scenarios...

maxweberh

30-03-2014, 21:28

That is part of the inspire. Do well in MAR, then the next year, fly outside your zone and do well. New reports in that the upstart Miss Daisy 341, flew to the NY Tundra, trimmed Ice Kings of GRR, but failed to capture the giant snowball.

I am not even sure what that last part meant, but the first part I think my point isn't being grasped. I am not complaining about our lack of funding or the unfairness of that. I am saying that if slots at MAR are being secured through awards and wins outside of the district, it is not fair to anyone. We have a situation where "slots to CMP" given at regionals are awarded by Regionals but the actual slots come from MAR's "slot pool" thereby destroying more slots to CMP in total. Not only does this destroy another team's chance to get to CMP at whatever Regional they came from, but it also makes it harder for me (as a competitor at MAR champs) to get to CMP.

Brandon_L

30-03-2014, 21:31

I have no idea what will happen if one of those teams ends up winning MAR Championship as well. The document is lacking in a number of very important details, and seems to be only half-complete in current form. You would think that whoever made the document would have taken the time to think through and address all possible scenarios...

My assumption was that it would eat up the winners slot, but that would be based off the old rules I believe.

quad

31-03-2014, 00:15

The week 5 ranks have been posted to the MAR website (http://www.midatlanticrobotics.com),

All 6 event summaries as well as the cumulative ranking points are available.

If you believe there are errors, please let MAR know asap (you can post here or PM)

=====

All of the following has been stated before in previous posts in this thread but by re-stating it all here hopefully it will clarify things wrt qualification to FIRST CMP:

This year MAR has 18 FIRST World CMP slots allocated.
MAR has 3 pre-qualified teams, all are HOF teams.

Of the 18 District slots, 8 are for "Designated Awards": 2 CA, 2 EI, 1 RAS, 3 MAR CMP winners. (There can be one additional slot taken if the Winning Alliance had a substitute team included.) These slots cannot got to any other team, in particular, the winning alliance slots are not "passed down" to the ranking slot pool if a member of the winning alliance has qualified for the Worlds in another way.

Of the 10/9 "Ranking Slots", they are reduced by the number of non-pre-qualified teams that have qualified at a Regional competition. After recalculating the Rankings to include the MAR CMP results (3x weighting), remaining "Ranking Slots" are offered to teams in rank order, skipping over teams that have already qualified in ANY manner, until all the remaining slots are filled.

Eg. If a MAR team wins an Regional, there will be one less "Ranking Slot". If that same team also wins CA and is on the winning alliance at the MAR CMP, then MAR can send a max of 16 teams instead of 18 (+ the 3 prequalified teams)

Lil' Lavery

31-03-2014, 13:38

Teams currently registered for MAR CMP
https://my.usfirst.org/myarea/index.lasso?page=teamlist&event_type=FRC&sort_teams=number&year=2014&event=mrcmp

Brandon_L

31-03-2014, 16:59

As the first team on the "waitlist", we haven't received an invite yet so I think its safe to assume no one has officially declined as of now.

Johnbot

31-03-2014, 17:27

As the first team on the "waitlist", we haven't received an invite yet so I think its safe to assume no one has officially declined as of now.

While I don't know if we have "officially" declined yet, I can guarantee you that 2607 will not be attending the MAR Championship (we are crating our robot tonight), so it is safe to assume that you will receive an invite at some point.

Hallry

31-03-2014, 18:26

While I don't know if we have "officially" declined yet, I can guarantee you that 2607 will not be attending the MAR Championship (we are crating our robot tonight), so it is safe to assume that you will receive an invite at some point.

Gracious Professionalism right there - huge props to 2607 for letting other teams play at MAR Champs.

Link07

31-03-2014, 20:49

Of the 55 teams qualified for MAR Champs at this time (not including spots that will most likely be passed down due to declines):

34 teams attended MAR Champs in 2013 (2 of these teams have stated intentions to decline their 2014 MAR Champs Spot)

8 teams Qualified for MAR Champs in 2013 but declined their spot (4 of these teams are already registered for MAR Champs 2014)

2 teams are rookies

11 teams did not qualify for MAR Champs in 2013

Lil' Lavery

01-04-2014, 13:27

For other bubble watchers, 103 is one of the 50 teams currently listed as registered for the event.

scottandme

01-04-2014, 13:27

We're up to 50 teams registered for MARCMP. No teams have been pulled from the "waitlist" yet. All 3 HoF teams (103, 341, 365) are registered, as well as 3 of the 4 teams that qualified for World Champs via an outside Regional (11, 225, 2016).

Teams that have yet to register:
#17 - 2607 (qualified for worlds, stated that they don't plan on attending)
#23 - 4954
#35 - 303
#38 - 4361
#41 - 1495

Teams on the "waitlist"
#55 - 2495
#56 - 2729
#57 - 708
#58 - 1712

The point system did a pretty poor job this year if those 4 might not make it to DCMP. They all had the unfortunate fate of registering for 3 of the deeper events in Hatboro, Lenape, and SCH.

Brandon_L

01-04-2014, 13:39

The point system did a pretty poor job this year if those 4 might not make it to DCMP. They all had the unfortunate fate of registering for 3 of the deeper events in Hatboro, Lenape, and SCH.

This wait is wrecking my nerves. On the bright side, not as many declines as last season. Especially bright because of the game this year. Should be pretty competitive, hopefully nearly every qualification match is as exciting as elims.

Steven Donow

01-04-2014, 13:48

The point system did a pretty poor job this year if those 4 might not make it to DCMP. They all had the unfortunate fate of registering for 3 of the deeper events in Hatboro, Lenape, and SCH.

I wouldn't say that it's an issue with the point system so much as an issue with imbalance in regards to event difficulty.

quad

01-04-2014, 13:50

In 2013 there were 8 declines, 4 were already qualified for FIRST CMP, the other 4 were between rank 35-50. Went 15 deep into the rankings to fill the 8 slots. Perhaps a large factor was that there were only 3-4 days between the last event and the start of MAR CMP, teams replacing the declines had even less time.

scottandme

01-04-2014, 14:04

I wouldn't say that it's an issue with the point system so much as an issue with imbalance in regards to event difficulty.

No doubt - hence the comment about HH, LEN, SCH. But I also think the changes to the point system were detrimental to sorting by robot quality. More points for 3rd round selections means that many teams ranked above the cutoff earned half or more of their total points from winning an event as one of the last picks. The changes to the award points were also detrimental (except for awarding points for EI & DCA). I wouldn't say that winning Quality/Industrial Design/Engineering Excellence is the equivalent of winning the Spirit/GP Award.

AGPapa

01-04-2014, 15:00

I'm not sure if the new points model did a good job sorting out the teams. Good teams like 2729, 2495, 708 and 1712 are under this 55 point cutoff. Hopefully they'll still qualify for MAR champs because they have good robots that deserve to be there. I'm not sure if the old points model would have done a better job; once BR ends I'll recalculate the rankings with last year's point systems to see the difference in who qualifies.

I recalculated the rankings with the old points system. With the old system teams 2495, 2729 and 708 would qualify for MAR champs while 2577, 3142 and 5113 would not. Additionally, 1712 would be the first team on the "waitlist".

ezygmont708

01-04-2014, 15:16

Brandon_L

01-04-2014, 16:17

Just received the Invite email.

nlknauss

01-04-2014, 16:19

Unfortunately for 708... We don't have a choice not to compete week 1 at Hatboro-Horsham as the event host. Fingers crossed for us and our friends who are on the edge of the bubble!

2495 | 2729 | 1712

Thanks Eric, keeping our fingers crossed for you too.

I just received an invite from HQ (https://twitter.com/stormroboticsnj/status/451089402593542144/photo/1/large?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=fb&utm_campaign=stormroboticsnj&utm_content=451089402593542144), so we're in. Not sure who is officially out, but we're in.

I recalculated the rankings with the old points system. With the old system teams 2495, 2729 and 708 would qualify for MAR champs while 2577, 3142 and 5113 would not. Additionally, 1712 would be the first team on the "waitlist".

The point ranking system is interesting this year to say the least. I wonder what last year's results would look like with this year's match outcomes? Neither ranking system accounts for strength of schedule but I'm just wondering if the nature of this year's game has a lot to do with it in how some of the role player type robots have found a niche and a part of this year's game.

Nate

ezygmont708

01-04-2014, 16:25

We just received an invite email from FIRST HQ... Looking into it now... Not sure where the declines came from...

Here's to hoping for 1712, I really do hope that one more slot opens up!

PayneTrain

01-04-2014, 16:27

Lil' Lavery

01-04-2014, 16:41

Thanks for all the friendly support for our team here. But it shouldn't extend only to 1712. I'm rooting for 4373, who's right behind us in line, to make it as well. They were a terrific alliance captain at SCH and there's no way we upset the #1 alliance without them.

scottandme

01-04-2014, 16:54

Registration just shuffled around a minute ago, with 2016 and 3340 dropping off the list of registered teams. We have 49 officially, with 3 teams saying they got invites who aren't on the list yet (2495, 2729, 708). So that makes 52.

Teams about the cut still missing:
4954 (#23)
303 (#35)
4361 (#38)

So if all those teams register, we're all full. If any of those decline, the order is:

1712 (#58)
4373 (#60)
4653 (#61)

Everyone below #61 is out of the running unless any currently registered teams drop out. Surprised to see 303 still missing, since they have been eligible to register since Clifton ended (week 3). Anybody have an idea about them?

AGPapa

01-04-2014, 16:58

The point ranking system is interesting this year to say the least. I wonder what last year's results would look like with this year's match outcomes? Neither ranking system accounts for strength of schedule but I'm just wondering if the nature of this year's game has a lot to do with it in how some of the role player type robots have found a niche and a part of this year's game.

I ran the new system with last year's results. If we have a 55 team MAR championship like this year then teams 4460, 203 and 4653 would be in with the new system while teams 357, 1647 and 223 would not be. Due to teams declining their invitation to MAR champs 4460 and 203 were invited last year anyway. 203 did not attend the region championship.

Steven Donow

01-04-2014, 16:58

Hallry

01-04-2014, 18:20

The main question is would they still be allowed to submit for Chairmans at DCMP without registering robot wise?

I don't see why not. 321 won EI at the MAR DCMP last year without competing robot wise (they didn't make the point cut-off).

Ken Best

01-04-2014, 20:15

Of the 18 District slots, 8 are for "Designated Awards": 2 CA, 2 EI, 1 RAS, 3 MAR CMP winners. (There can be one additional slot taken if the Winning Alliance had a substitute team included.) These slots cannot got to any other team, in particular, the winning alliance slots are not "passed down" to the ranking slot pool if a member of the winning alliance has qualified for the Worlds in another way.

If the MARCMP CA, EI are the 1st designated award teams, how are the two second teams decided?

Lil' Lavery

01-04-2014, 20:40

If the MARCMP CA, EI are the 1st designated award teams, how are the two second teams decided?

Two Chairman's Awards and two EI awards are given out at the event.

Ken Best

01-04-2014, 20:49

Missed that one, Thanks.

nlknauss

01-04-2014, 21:33

I ran the new system with last year's results. If we have a 55 team MAR championship like this year then teams 4460, 203 and 4653 would be in with the new system while teams 357, 1647 and 223 would not be. Due to teams declining their invitation to MAR champs 4460 and 203 were invited last year anyway. 203 did not attend the region championship.

Thanks for posting this Antonio, there doesn't seem to be a huge difference in the point distribution and rankings. As as mentioned in earlier posts in this thread, it's tough to factor strength of schedule/event into the scoring system. Hopefully the points ranking committee is going to reconvene after seeing the system in action after a year and talk over some of the pros and cons. Strength of events is something that is larger than just what we see here in MAR, you see it are regionals and probably other Districts too. Maybe it will even out a little if District swapping comes to us in the future? Will certainly be tough to balance.

BeardyMentor

02-04-2014, 08:30

I'm just wondering if the nature of this year's game has a lot to do with it in how some of the role player type robots have found a niche and a part of this year's game.

Nate

I think that this years game is a great change. It rewards alliance teamwork as well as individual team achievement. It really emphasizes alliance robot interaction and prevents one amazing robot on the field from running away with the game.

quad

02-04-2014, 10:39

one spot left:

invited - 4954

next in line - 1712

Link07

02-04-2014, 12:26

4954 has accepted their spot.

And with that, all 55 slots to MAR Champs 2014 have been filled. Looks to be another awesome event!

quad

02-04-2014, 12:40

As was noted the field is set.

2/5 Rookie teams qualified
1/9 Sophomore teams qualified
4/9 Third year teams qualified
4/5 District EI winners qualified w/ their robots
2/4 District RAS winners qualified w/ their robots

38 of this year's top 55 by rank were also in last years top 55
34/50 teams in the 2013 MAR CMP are returning to the 2014 MAR CMP

scottandme

02-04-2014, 13:49

Steven Donow

02-04-2014, 14:47

Back down to 54 teams - 486 dropped off the list sometime today.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AizgHBYEeVnwdDJVeFBzWTduazNLV3I2Skw5dlh4a FE&usp=drive_web#gid=4

Still a much higher acceptance % than in previous years - maybe a result of increased MAR grants?

I also think it has to do with the additional week between the last district and MAR Champs. I remember last year the last spot being given pretty far down the line due to teams who rejected because they simply couldn't plan the trip in <1 week. And we still ended up one team short of being full.

Do you have the stats/data on rejections for 2012?

quad

02-04-2014, 15:11

Mentioned it in a post in this thread back here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1367913&postcount=89) for last year, 2013

Here's details if you want:
Rank Team # Points Reg Reg
MAR FIRST
CMP CMP
1 341 135 Y
2 2590 130 Y
3 1676 121 Y
4 225 120 Y
5 316 118 Y
6 11 114 Y Y
7 3974 105 Y
8 103 103 Y Y
9 293 101 Y
10 2729 100 Y
11 56 97 Y
12 3314 97 Y Y
13 365 94 Y
14 2607 91 Y
15 222 88 Y
16 303 86 Y
17 1640 80 Y
18 193 77 Y
19 4575 77 Y
20 816 75 Y
21 2016 74 Y
22 272 72 Y
23 1218 69 Y
24 1089 68 Y
25 1403 66 Y
26 486 66 Y
27 714 65 Y
28 2539 65 Y
29 4285 63 Y
30 25 62 Y
31 75 62 Y
32 1367 60 Y
33 869 60 Y
34 1391 58 Y
35 219 57
36 1228 57 Y
37 224 53 Y
38 433 53 Y
39 1495 52
40 1143 52 Y
41 1881 52 Y
42 4361 51
43 1279 51 Y
44 1370 51 Y
45 2559 51 Y
46 1626 51 Y
47 3340 50 Y
48 4475 49 Y
49 4342 48 Y
50 3123 47
51 136 47
52 357 47 Y
53 223 46 Y
54 1647 46
55 2495 45 Y
56 1672 43 Y
57 1302 42 Y
58 1807 42
59 555 42
60 4460 42 Y
61 1923 41 Y
62 3151 41
63 1168 41
64 203 40
65 484 39 Y

don't have the 2012 data off hand

scottandme

02-04-2014, 17:47

I also think it has to do with the additional week between the last district and MAR Champs. I remember last year the last spot being given pretty far down the line due to teams who rejected because they simply couldn't plan the trip in <1 week. And we still ended up one team short of being full.

Do you have the stats/data on rejections for 2012?

MAR 2012 here, green team number for teams @ MARCMP. Not as neatly organized, and I only filled data for some of the teams to determine WCMP bids.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqCax1FanfCIdEtYalQyUkVNVlpMY3Y1YVpMQURnY 0E&usp=sharing

nlknauss

02-04-2014, 18:30

I also think it's a sign of the District model maturing in our region. Teams seem to be doing a better job preparing for and planning to attend the region championship as a part of their season. I also don't want to diminish the work MAR has done to make grants available to teams to attend too. They've really done an excellent job of making Districts work well for all teams.

Foster

02-04-2014, 18:41

So is 1712 on the list for this weekend?

Lil' Lavery

02-04-2014, 23:16

So is 1712 on the list for this weekend?

As of 5:00, we had not yet received an invitation.

scottandme

03-04-2014, 09:33

We're down to 53 teams now - with 103 dropping off the list of registered teams. So it would seem that 1712 and 4373 are the two teams next in the queue. Pretty odd to have so many teams showing as registered and then dropping off the list.

Lil' Lavery

03-04-2014, 10:10

We just received our invitation email. Seeing as they listed us as registered before we could even respond, I think that lends some clues as to why teams were appearing on the registered list and then being removed. We are planning to attend, and our excited that 4373 will have an opportunity to as well!

ThunderPorpoise

03-04-2014, 10:51

4373 here. We have yet to receive our email but we're excited to have the opportunity to attend.

ThunderPorpoise

03-04-2014, 22:00

Quick update: we received our email and are registered to attend! Which I believe is the last spot filled if no one else drops. Good luck to everyone, see you there.

Link07

15-04-2014, 17:13

According to this list (https://my.usfirst.org/frc/scoring/index.lasso?page=event_teamlist&ID_event=10747) team 56 is the only qualified team not currently registered to Champs. Does anybody know if they plan on attending?

The next team in would be Team 869.

Edit* Just saw 357 is registered. Does anybody know how they got in?

Domenic Rodriguez

15-04-2014, 17:17

According to this list (https://my.usfirst.org/frc/scoring/index.lasso?page=event_teamlist&ID_event=10747) team 56 is the only qualified team not currently registered to Champs. Does anybody know if they plan on attending?

The next team in would be Team 869.

Team 869 tweeted this morning that they have been invited to Champs: https://twitter.com/869powercord/status/455779668344729601

Link07

15-04-2014, 17:21

Team 869 tweeted this morning that they have been invited to Champs: https://twitter.com/869powercord/status/455779668344729601

Oh yes I completely forgot to check if 869 was registered :rolleyes:

AGPapa

15-04-2014, 17:37

So all teams announced at MAR Champs are registered for St. Louis except for 56. Two new teams have registered, 869 and 357. If 56 declined their invitation then it would make sense for 869 to be invited. I'm not sure why 357 was invited, but I have two ideas.

1. Waitlist- Their's only room for a handful of teams on the waitlist this year, so the chances that 357 got in on this are pretty slim.

2. The wording of the "reverse wildcard" clause in the Standardized points system is "if a District Team does earn a slot at the FIRST Championship while attending a Regional event, that slot does count against the total Championship allocation the District is receiving for the season." This can be interpreted as allowing another points slot to be created if a HoF teams wins the Region Championship (which 341 did) and a team qualified outside of the region (which also happened). Their could actually be 8 point slots this year. The wording of this clause is very confusing and I hope FIRST publishes supplemental rules for the districts next year to prevent this confusion.

Link07

15-04-2014, 17:39

Their could actually be 8 point slots this year. The wording of this clause is very confusing and I hope FIRST publishes supplemental rules for the districts next year to prevent this confusion.

For this explanation, team 75 would have had to decline their invite

Steven Donow

15-04-2014, 17:41

For this explanation, team 75 would have had to decline their invite

I was told (unofficially) that 75 would have likely ended up declining their spot had they eventually gained one.

AGPapa

16-04-2014, 09:45

I was told (unofficially) that 75 would have likely ended up declining their spot had they eventually gained one.

Team 75 is now registered to attend the FIRST Championship.

I don't understand what's going on anymore. We are now sending two more teams than were announced at MAR Champs.

Link07

16-04-2014, 09:55

I was told 357 got in by waitlist.

Kevin Phan

16-04-2014, 10:07

I can say that we got in by waitlist, I am not sure of enough teams declining their invitation after champs. We were 3 slots away from qualifying on points though.

Hallry

16-04-2014, 10:12

I don't understand what's going on anymore.... We are now sending two more teams than were announced at MAR Champs.

Phew, glad I'm not the only one :yikes:

Team 75 is now registered to attend the FIRST Championship.

But, huge congrats to the RoboRaiders! I couldn't think of a more deserving team; I was shocked that they didn't win E.I. or Chairman's at MAR Champs after being eligible for both. Best of luck in St. Louis! I always admire you guys.

Hallry

16-04-2014, 14:40

Sorry for the double-post, but to clear some things up:

1. According to this FRC Blog post, (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-standard-district-points-ranking-system%E2%80%93more-info), "These allocated slots are guaranteed to the Districts. These slots will be made up of qualifying award winners from the District Championship (for example, the Chairman’s Award winners), along with any qualifying award winners among district teams who traveled to Regionals, plus the teams on the final District ranking list, as deep in the ranking list as the district needs to go to fill their allocation." So, no matter what, it sounds like MAR will send 21 teams. 3 Hall of Fame Teams + 18 unique other teams.

2. The blog post also says "Pre-qualified teams from a District do not count against their slot allocation. Districts are able to send to the FIRST Championship the number of unique teams allocated to them using the proportional representation model, plus their unique pre-qualified teams." Thus, since 341, a pre-qualified HoF team won MAR Champs, MAR was able to send another unique team via points.

3. It also says "As noted in the summary document, District teams earning FIRST Championship slots at Regionals do count against the District allocation. Even though a District team may earn their FIRST Championship slot at a Regional, they are still from the District and can be considered part of the District contingent to the Championship." Since 11 also won MAR Champs, I guess they took a Winner slot instread of taking a point slot. This means that the total point slot allocations, after 225, 2016, and 2067 took three away from the original 10, but 341 gave back one by winning Lehigh, is 8.

4. 1089, 222, 2180, 193, 56, 1640, and 484 were the next top 7th ranked teams in MAR. It was announced after MAR Champs that they would all get all get an invitation to St. Louis. Although many people expected there to only by 6 slots, the 7th slot was because MORT blackholed a winner spot instead of a points slot.

3. However, unrealized by most, since 341 also won MAR Champs, there were actually 8 point slots, as I mentioned in #2. 869 was the 8th next highest ranked team, so although it wasn't said at MAR Champs, they got the St. Louis slot that was revived by 341 winning, which they accepted.

4. 56 unfortunately declined their point slot to St. Louis, so it was passed onto the next top ranked team (ranked 9th), Team 75, who accepted it.

5. 357 seems to have registered for St. Louis via an official waitlist slot. Interestingly, I can't find any other teams that have done the same, though. It just so seems to have happened that they were the next top ranked team in MAR after 75.

But, I could be wrong. :)