Were to store practice bot at regional?

[nixiebunny]

We have a practice bot in the back of the pickup truck. It's a spare-parts machine at the regional. I probably don't want to leave it in the back of the truck, but it might be hard to put it inside the cab on the seat. The hotel is a mile away.

Hmmm... where?

[notmattlythgoe]

Remember, you can only bring 45 lbs of manufactured non COTS items into the arena. So having an entire robot of spare parts is not really legal.

[Christopher149]

I might be a little wary of Q416 (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/416/can-we-bring-an-old-robot-to-the-competition-for-the-purposes-of-using-it-to-supplement-our-chairmans-award-presentation-and-not-have-the-weight-count-against-our-teams-45-lb-withholding-allowance), where a bot for a Chairman's presentation was ruled to count toward the 45 lb allowance.

How much does the bot weigh?

[protoserge]

You will want to have your 45lbs selected and removed prior to going to competition. The rules state that you cannot work on the robot mechanical components outside of the pit or outside of the pit operating hours (no in-hotel work).

If you are bringing the entire robot, it would be best to leave it in the hotel. Thefts from parking lots are unfortunately, not uncommon.

[Doc Wu]

Store it at your school, your shop, your sponsor's facility, wherever you normally keep it. Don't bring it to a regional.

While you can use a used, unmodified, COTS part that was on an old robot, as a spare, you cannot store it on the robot until you need it. It's not a parts rack.

A manufactured part, even if it's identical to one on your competition robot, can be a spare part, but it counts under your weight allowance and must be brought into the pits as a part, not as a part of a robot.

Think about what you are asking. If every team brought a spare or practice robot to a competition, where would they put up to 60 extra robots?

[mrnoble]

We have a practice bot in the back of the pickup truck. It's a spare-parts machine at the regional.

Dude, if what I read here is accurate, you need to understand that that's not ok. My team has a practice bot too, which we've used for drive practice and R&D. We will take our spare parts and improvements off of it and take them to competition, leaving the rest behind. 45 pounds only, excluding the bumpers, batteries, and COTS straight from the box. That is a generous rule and it's very clear.

[Sparky3D]

Remember, you can only bring 45 lbs of manufactured non COTS items into the arena. So having an entire robot of spare parts is not really legal.

Sorry to say it OP, but I'm going to have to agree that this isn't legal (unless your practice bot is under 45 pounds). Also, if you declare your practice bot as part of your withholding, you can't do anything to it in the parking lot (rule T11), or after hours (rule R15).

If you think you're going to need some of the parts off that bot, you should really go talk to the officials at the event, explain the situation, and (if they allow it) strip the needed parts off the practice bot and bring them into the venue as your withholding allowance. The rest of the bot can then be left back at the hotel.

[s_forbes]

Take the top half off and bring it in (it's definitely under 45 lbs). Leave the drivetrain; as a KOP drivetrain there are bound to be folks with spare parts.

[BBray_T1296]

Take the top half off and bring it in (it's definitely under 45 lbs). Leave the drivetrain; as a KOP drivetrain there are bound to be folks with spare parts.

Is the KOP drivetrain not a COTS device? Granted, it is assembled, but dismantled anything unmodified will not count to the 45lbs.

What I see teams do is keep the practice bots in their trailers and send a few kids out to the parking lot to recover parts as needed, so only weight you actually need is ever brought in.

I your situation, just dismantle the systems and bring in what you expect to break (hard stops on catapult, out-of-frame ball intakes etc, and as much COTS parts you can otherwise) and perhaps leave the robot in someone's hotel room (we built our 2012 practice robot again in the hotel during an offseason event, there is definitely room)

[B2E175]

...

[wilsonmw04]

The regional is in the building, if you keep the robot out of the building you should be ok as long as you don't bring it more than 45 pounds of it into the arena/school. Can those of you who are saying that this is illegal, can you please point to the rule that says what defines an event and what defines the 45 pound allowance that backs you up?

[notmattlythgoe]

What I see teams do is keep the practice bots in their trailers and send a few kids out to the parking lot to recover parts as needed, so only weight you actually need is ever brought in.

This in my opinion is against the rules and is definitely against the intention of the rule.

[BigJ]

The whole "practice bot in a trailer" thing may be why they added the word "static" to the definition of the withholding allowance. I don't remember that word being there before.

[mrnoble]

Is the KOP drivetrain not a COTS device? Granted, it is assembled, but dismantled anything unmodified will not count to the 45lbs.



Is there anything left truly unmodified in the KOP drivetrain? Enlarge a hole, or make it a widebot, or a longbot, and it is modified. Stripping a wire on a CIM for crimping is modification, as has been pointed out in past threads many times.

It is not cool to have Frankenstein's Monster in your hotel room or trailer, to pull parts from as necessary. I have already said that I think the 45 pounds rule is very clear, and that it is extremely generous. It was raised from 30 to accommodate the folks whose build schedule was ruined by the weather this year. Unless you can get your practice bot down to 45 pounds or less, bringing it to competition with the intent of using it for spares is CHEATING.

[colin340]

Welcome folks, welcome to the dumbest rule in first.

[mrnoble]

I dont see anything wrong with keeping a second bot in the parking lot. Our team is planing on doing this and removing assemblys as needed in the lot then bringing them into the competition. As long as no more than 45 lbs in spare parts is brought in to the arena there is nothing wrong with this. It is legal.

You are dead wrong. The rule is intended to prevent us from doing exactly what you suggest, and to encourage us to be proactive thinkers. We need to make choices as to what we will bring, or manufacture, or buy, based on our best understanding of the game and what our robots' weaknesses are. What you are planning on doing is (I repeat) CHEATING. Don't do it.

[BigJ]

You are dead wrong. The rule is intended to prevent us from doing exactly what you suggest, and to encourage us to be proactive thinkers. We need to make choices as to what we will bring, or manufacture, or buy, based on our best understanding of the game and what our robots' weaknesses are. What you are planning on doing is (I repeat) CHEATING. Don't do it.

Not disagreeing with you but you don't get to define the intent of the rule. The GDC (rule updates, Q&A) and their delegates (LRI, Head Ref, etc.) do.

If anything, the problem with the "practice bot in trailer" might be the addition of "static" to the rule.

2014:

At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

2013:

Teams may bring a maximum of 30 lbs of FABRICATED ITEMS to each event to be used to repair and/or upgrade
their ROBOT

[shades23]

...

[notmattlythgoe]

Not disagreeing with you but you don't get to define the intent of the rule. The GDC (rule updates, Q&A) and their delegates (LRI, Head Ref, etc.) do.

If anything, the problem with the "practice bot in trailer" might be the addition of "static" to the rule.

2014:



2013:

I agree with this, by bringing in the parts one at a time when needed your 45 lbs is no longer static, its dynamic. I believe by adding the term static this strategy is now illegal.

[B2E175]

...

[pntbll1313]

How can you argue that having access to 120lbs of fabricated items is not against the rule below?

At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

[ToddF]

Why doesn't someone just post a question to QA, rather than arguing about it?

Edit: Someone already submitted one that would seem to apply: Q416.

Q. Can we bring an old robot to the competition for the purposes of using it to supplement our Chairman's Award presentation and not have the weight count against our team's 45 lb withholding allowance?
FRC0340 on 2014-02-25 | 1 Followers
A. These items would count towards the 45 lb limit in R18.

At least by implication, ALL robot parts brought to the competition, even if they never enter the arena, count towards the 45 pounds, even if they were made in a previous year and couldn't be legally installed on your robot.

[BBray_T1296]

I had actually not noticed that particular rule before.


I will say though it is a very popular strategy which I doubt will be ceased this year by teams I see doing this year after year.

[JamesCH95]

How can you argue that having access to 120lbs of fabricated items is not against the rule below?

At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

This is the core of why bringing a practice bot and stripping off parts is illegal.

The rule says: At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

Emphasis mine.

If you can go to your trailer and get a part from a practice bot, that's access. If you have access, or potential access, to more than 45lbs worth of parts you are in violation of the rule.

[Steve W]

First of all the rules state 1 robot is allowed at an event. Having another robot onsite is not legal. If the issue is if the parking lot is onsite then I would say if at the venue then it is on site.

The next issue is that you are not allowed to work on the robot or parts outside of the pit area during an event. If you are taking taking parts off a spare robot then in my opinion you are working on them outside of the pits.

In my opinion and not the final say from FIRST (as suggested, ask in Q&A) and as an Inspector and LRI I would not allow it.

[FrankJ]

The rules really don't address where you keep your practice bot other than not at the competition. You can go & harvest COTS parts off of it to your hearts delight. Just as long as they still meet the definition of COTs when they come into the competition.

Aside from the static 45 lb allowance, the manufactured parts on the robot are off limits just the same as anything manufactured in your hotel room, Build site whatever. Which means any manufactured items should be pulled before the competition, not selected from a larger set of parts during the competition. As with many things in First you are on your honor to follow the rules.

[Qbot2640]

Guys - while some may not like it, it is clearly against the rules to use a practice robot for spare parts in this manner. In Palmetto our LRI instructed us to weigh any team's withholding allowance that we deemed to appear potentially exceeding the 45# limit...kind of hard to verify if it is in the trailer or the hotel.

Going to "practicality" now, however - it is obviously difficult to verify what goes in and out of the venue (unless it is particularly large) so this requires teams to employ the honor system...and with the degree of misinterpretation shown in this thread I fear there will be a lot of violation going on.

Follow the rules - plan a STATIC set of fabricated/modified/altered/assembled parts that is less than 45# and bring that set of parts in with you at registration to show inspectors (and be weighed by inspectors if requested). Anything COTS from the practice robot that you want to use have disassembled before the event and bring it with your extras. Leave everything else at home.

I'd love to hear Al comment....

[Anupam Goli]

This is the core of why bringing a practice bot and stripping off parts is illegal.

The rule says: At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

Emphasis mine.

If you can go to your trailer and get a part from a practice bot, that's access. If you have access, or potential access, to more than 45lbs worth of parts you are in violation of the rule.

This brings up an interesting question:

Our 2nd event is 2-3 miles away from our working facility. Does that mean every single part in our facility counts to the 45 lb limit, since we have access to it during the competition?

[Justin Montois]

Normally, I despise rules that cannot be enforced consistently. Where I make exceptions are Bagging the Robot, and the withholding allowance. While both are nearly impossible to enforce, they are in place to ensure that all teams at the event are playing by the same rules.

All teams get 1 robot and 45 pounds of fabricated spare parts for each event.

Other rules are in place to encourage fair play. For example
T11
At events, Teams may only produce FABRICATED ITEMS in the pit areas or provided machine shops, as defined in the Administrative Manual, Section 4.8: The Pit.

This means that if your team has access to machine shop within driving distance that other teams do not have then T11 eliminates that advantage.

A practice robot in the trailer in the parking lot is access to more than 45 pounds of parts and therefor illegal. No need for the Q & A here.

[JamesCH95]

This brings up an interesting question:

Our 2nd event is 2-3 miles away from our working facility. Does that mean every single part in our facility counts to the 45 lb limit, since we have access to it during the competition?

Yes.

Do all of your competitors have the same ability? Otherwise it gives you an exceedingly unfair advantage. This is also why the rules prohibit working on any robot parts outside of the pit area.

[ToddF]

I will say though it is a very popular strategy which I doubt will be ceased this year by teams I see doing this year after year.

FIRST could make this issue go away if they just issued a rule clarification that the 45 pounds of withholding allowance must be located within the pit at the time a team opens their bagged robot.

There will always be a point in your FIRST experience when you realize you can get away with something that is against the rules. It is at that point when you have a choice to make about your own personal ethics, and what sort of example you will set for your students.

Now, if you are convinced that teams at the regionals you attend are knowingly flaunting the withholding rules, you do have several options.
- What should work: Talk to the coach of the team personally. Explain that you noticed that they seem to be violating a rule. Show them a printout of the rule and the QA response. In a perfect world, just knowing that someone is watching will motivate them to change their behavior.
- The theoretically correct way: Report them to the head referee before competition starts and hope the situation is corrected.
- The nasty way: Video record them removing fabricated robot parts from their trailer and bringing them into the arena. After their next match, send a student with a laptop to the question box. Play the video for the referee and request that the team be cited for breaking the withholding rule. Because they used an illegal part, their robot technically hasn't passed inspection. Since they played without passing inspection, their entire alliance gets a red card.
- The non-confrontational way: Do nothing. Hope that eventually karma will catch up to them.
- The way that sets the worst possible example for your students: Do the same thing, because, "Everybody does it, and if they can do it, we can too."

Looking at it from the other side, the violators may truly not know they are doing anything wrong. A few couple years ago, we took a shaft back to our hotel. During a team meeting in the lobby, we used a needle file to fit a key to the shaft keyway. I know we were observed doing this by other teams walking past, but no one said anything. A couple weeks later, I came across the rule that said all work must be performed in the pits. I was mortified, and won't let anything like that happen ever again. But I wish someone had let us know that we were breaking a rule. It's easy to assume other people are willingly doing something wrong when that might not be the case.

[Chris is me]

Keep the practice robot offsite (in a trailer, at the shop, whatever). If you need things from it AND you have the weight to spare, go get your parts off of it, bring them in, make a note of how much they weighed and how much weight you have left, and don't go over.

I don't see this as violating any rules, spirit or otherwise. You still have the same limits as everyone else. Teams have done this for years. You only get access to 45 pounds of stuff, you jut choose what stuff to use when you need it.

[notmattlythgoe]

Keep the practice robot offsite (in a trailer, at the shop, whatever). If you need things from it AND you have the weight to spare, go get your parts off of it, bring them in, make a note of how much they weighed and how much weight you have left, and don't go over.

I don't see this as violating any rules, spirit or otherwise. You still have the same limits as everyone else. Teams have done this for years. You only get access to 45 pounds of stuff, you jut choose what stuff to use when you need it.

Like I said before, I don't think this falls under the "static" definition. While at the competition, your 45 lb witholding allowance is now changing dynamically each time you bring in a new part. With that said, my word is in no way official, and I would ask the inspector at the competition if what you are doing falls under the rules.

[wilsonmw04]

I guess the questions is what defines the event? If it's in the building it counts. Does in the parking lot count? how about 3 blocks away? 4 miles? 250 miles?

If we sent someone to our shop to make a part for our team or another team that is against the rules as well? The definition is vague and causes problems.

[Chris is me]

Like I said before, I don't think this falls under the "static" definition. While at the competition, your 45 lb witholding allowance is now changing dynamically each time you bring in a new part. With that said, my word is in no way official, and I would ask the inspector at the competition if what you are doing falls under the rules.

The set is static, you just don't define the set at unbag time. Ie if 45 pounds got me 4 assemblies, once we bring these in we cannot exchange them for other parts wherever we get them.

[Steve W]

Like I said before, I don't think this falls under the "static" definition. While at the competition, your 45 lb witholding allowance is now changing dynamically each time you bring in a new part. With that said, my word is in no way official, and I would ask the inspector at the competition if what you are doing falls under the rules.

...and if you want to use the don't ask, don't tell logic about asking then you know it is wrong.

....which it is.

[AdamHeard]

Like I said before, I don't think this falls under the "static" definition. While at the competition, your 45 lb witholding allowance is now changing dynamically each time you bring in a new part. With that said, my word is in no way official, and I would ask the inspector at the competition if what you are doing falls under the rules.

What about COTS items.

It's a whole lot of work to remove all the COTS items from a practice bots for spares ahead of time.

[BigJ]

I can see both ways satisfying the definition if "static". "Access" is another word that might swing the argument. Q&A it!

[notmattlythgoe]

The set is static, you just don't define the set at unbag time. Ie if 45 pounds got me 4 assemblies, once we bring these in we cannot exchange them for other parts wherever we get them.

static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs

That set exceeds 45 lbs though and by your description would be illegal. And by not defining them at unbag time you are creating a dynamic set that can change.

[mrnoble]

This is ridiculous. If you intend to bring a whole robot's worth of spare parts to the competition, and keep them offsite, thus bypassing a clear rule in both letter and spirit, then go ahead and go all the way: don't bag your bot. Keep working on it after Bag & Tag day! Fix it until it's perfect. Modify it (or better yet, rebuild it entirely) based on what you see in the reveal videos and early rounds of competition. Then bag it the night before you leave for your regional, and backdate the robot lockout form. You and your team will be the only ones that know...

If that's how you play.

The purpose of Bag & Tag and the withholding allowance are to emphasize that this is a competition in which the honesty and honor of the teams are on public display. The winners of the competition are those that worked the hardest, pushed themselves the most, and had some good luck. The rest of us can go home proud of our best efforts, or wowed by the levels that are possible to reach, ready to try harder next year.

I am discouraged to know that there are so many who don't intend to play this way. Not for the my sake, or the sake of my team. We will do our best within the rules, and win or lose will be proud. I'm worried and upset for those of you who don't see the damage that you are doing to the students under your guidance and care.

[Sparky3D]

Keep the practice robot offsite (in a trailer, at the shop, whatever). If you need things from it AND you have the weight to spare, go get your parts off of it, bring them in, make a note of how much they weighed and how much weight you have left, and don't go over.

I don't see this as violating any rules, spirit or otherwise. You still have the same limits as everyone else. Teams have done this for years. You only get access to 45 pounds of stuff, you jut choose what stuff to use when you need it.

By this logic, if there was a team with unlimited budget, they could build a dozen robots in different configurations and load them all in a semi-trailer and bring them to the event. Once they see how the game is being played, they can go out to the trailer and select the best mechanisms for the game and bring them inside and put them on their robot? Somehow I don't think this is what FIRST had in mind with the withholding rule.

[Electronica1]

The set is static, you just don't define the set at unbag time. Ie if 45 pounds got me 4 assemblies, once we bring these in we cannot exchange them for other parts wherever we get them.

This is how I read it also. But just in case I think my team are just going to take the high risk parts (intakes) off the proto and bring them in.

[BigJ]

This is ridiculous. If you intend to bring a whole robot's worth of spare parts to the competition, and keep them offsite, thus bypassing a clear rule in both letter and spirit, then go ahead and go all the way: don't bag your bot. Keep working on it after Bag & Tag day! Fix it until it's perfect. Modify it (or better yet, rebuild it entirely) based on what you see in the reveal videos and early rounds of competition. Then bag it the night before you leave for your regional, and backdate the robot lockout form. You and your team will be the only ones that know...

If that's how you play.

The purpose of Bag & Tag and the withholding allowance are to emphasize that this is a competition in which the honesty and honor of the teams are on public display. The winners of the competition are those that worked the hardest, pushed themselves the most, and had some good luck. The rest of us can go home proud of our best efforts, or wowed by the levels that are possible to reach, ready to try harder next year.

I am discouraged to know that there are so many who don't intend to play this way. Not for the my sake, or the sake of my team. We will do our best within the rules, and win or lose will be proud. I'm worried and upset for those of you who don't see the damage that you are doing to the students under your guidance and care.

Your hyperbole and continued assumption of the "spirit" of this rule aren't really helping the conversation.

You are free to operate in your own frame of reference, but not to judge others operating outside of yours. The truth is none of us will know the real answer to the question until a specific Q&A question is asked and answered.

[XaulZan11]

Teams have done this for years. You only get access to 45 pounds of stuff, you jut choose what stuff to use when you need it.

Chris, you've been around enough to know that just because things were legal in prior years, doesn't mean they are legal this year.

In my opinion, the addition of 'access to' and 'static' in this year's rules makes it pretty clear that bringing your entire practice robot to the parking lot and picking and choosing your 45 pounds based on what you need (or what breaks), is illegal.

[Andrew Schreiber]

This is the core of why bringing a practice bot and stripping off parts is illegal.

The rule says: At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

Emphasis mine.

If you can go to your trailer and get a part from a practice bot, that's access. If you have access, or potential access, to more than 45lbs worth of parts you are in violation of the rule.

So you're telling me that 125 needs to make sure we only have 45 lbs of spare parts in our lab for Northeastern because our lab is AT the venue? Yeah lemme get right on NOT doing that.

Of course, I've always felt the 45 lbs is upgrade parts. 1 to 1 replacement parts shouldn't count since they are functionally equivalent to parts you bagged. (This isn't how the rule is, it's just how I think it should be)

[Chris is me]

That set exceeds 45 lbs though and by your description would be illegal. And by not defining them at unbag time you are creating a dynamic set that can change.

My interpretation of "static set" is that you cannot go back and say "oh, this item we didn't need doesn't count anymore, so this other item counts". As in "once it's in, it's in." Your interpretation has a lot of consequences, such as teams never being able to bring in parts they forgot on Thursday, and requiring all of the items enter the venue at the exact same time.

But for the sake of argument let's use your interpretation - you must define this set of items once and it will remain that way. What if you bring in zero pounds of items and then define the set once you go to your trailer / shop / whatever in one fell swoop?

[notmattlythgoe]

Your hyperbole and continued assumption of the "spirit" of this rule aren't really helping the conversation.

You are free to operate in your own frame of reference, but not to judge others operating outside of yours. The truth is none of us will know the real answer to the question until a specific Q&A question is asked and answered.

True, there seems to be a misinterpretation on one side or the other and I'd be interested in knowing the intent of the rule.

[D_Price]

I have two words to add. Always remember "gracious professionalism" whether in FRC or wherever it carries over into the real world.

[JamesCH95]

So you're telling me that 125 needs to make sure we only have 45 lbs of spare parts in our lab for Northeastern because our lab is AT the venue? Yeah lemme get right on NOT doing that.

Of course, I've always felt the 45 lbs is upgrade parts. 1 to 1 replacement parts shouldn't count since they are functionally equivalent to parts you bagged. (This isn't how the rule is, it's just how I think it should be)

That's not what I'm saying. Please don't overreact until you understand what I mean.

I'm saying that you will be under the honor system that you've pre-selected your 45lbs of withholding and won't go to your shop to take advantage of resources and spare parts that other teams don't have access to.

[notmattlythgoe]

My interpretation of "static set" is that you cannot go back and say "oh, this item we didn't need doesn't count anymore, so this other item counts". As in "once it's in, it's in." Your interpretation has a lot of consequences, such as teams never being able to bring in parts they forgot on Thursday, and requiring all of the items enter the venue at the exact same time.

But for the sake of argument let's use your interpretation - you must define this set of items once and it will remain that way. What if you bring in zero pounds of items and then define the set once you go to your trailer / shop / whatever in one fell swoop?

We have always brought in our withholding allowance when we brought in our robot, so maybe that is skewing my interpretation of the rule. I would obviously use better judgement than "Oh you forgot a part you meant to bring, sucks to be you" but I could very well be wrong in my interpretation. In my opinion you have an intended set of parts that you plan on bringing to the competition and that set of parts should not exceed the 45 lb allowance. And I want to make sure to put it out there that I am in no way calling anybody a cheater, misinterpretations happen and rules are missed every year, I don't think anybody that is doing this is doing it knowing they are doing it illegally.

[Steve W]

This rule applies to manufactured parts. There is no limit on COTS items.

[Ian Curtis]

It all just seems a little bit silly. We have a 6 week build season because FIRST "likes us", but we have to build an entire second robot to have adequate practice time, and then to actually bring spares or upgrades to an event we need to fabricate another 1/3 of our robot or disassemble and reassemble our robot after every event?

That's not what I'm saying. Please don't overreact until you understand what I mean.

I'm saying that you will be under the honor system that you've pre-selected your 45lbs of withholding and won't go to your shop to take advantage of resources and spare parts that other teams don't have access to.

To clarify, its okay for any team to bring their practice robot, so long as they write out a list of which parts they are declaring as part of their withholding allowance?

[JamesCH95]

It all just seems a little bit silly. We have a 6 week build season because FIRST "likes us", but we have to build an entire second robot to have adequate practice time, and then to actually bring spares or upgrades to an event we need to fabricate another 1/3 of our robot or disassemble and reassemble our robot after every event?



To clarify, its okay for any team to bring their practice robot, so long as they write out a list of which parts they are declaring as part of their withholding allowance?

In my opinion that would be okay, provided that the team could prove that those parts weigh less than 45lbs.

The 45lbs of witholding allowance isn't allowing you to use up to 45lbs of any pre-fab stuff, it's that you can bring up to 45 of pre-fab stuff. So, conceivably, you have to plan that allowance out

Bringing a practice robot and stripping any <45lbs of stuff off it isn't the same as having to have brought <45lbs of stuff with you from the start. This is the core difference of interpretation that most people are having here. I think that FIRST intends for us to have pre-selected that 45lbs of stuff, but Q&A is the only way to clarify this. Again, everyone is under the honor system in this rule, especially teams based at (or near) event venues.

[Richard Wallace]

What about COTS items.

It's a whole lot of work to remove all the COTS items from a practice bots for spares ahead of time.
As I read the definition of a FABRICATED ITEM in the 2014 Manual:
FABRICATED ITEM: any COMPONENT or MECHANISM that has been altered, built, cast, constructed, concocted, created, cut, heat treated, machined, manufactured, modified, painted, produced, surface coated, or conjured partially or completely into the final form in which it will be used on the ROBOT.a MECHANISM built using a COTS item is a FABRICATED ITEM. R18 precludes access to more than 45 lb of FABRICATED ITEMS, so to be excluded from the 45 lb limit, a COTS item would need to be removed from any FABRICATED ITEM before the team has access to it during an event.

Yeah, it is a whole lot of work.

[tim-tim]

As I read the definition of a FABRICATED ITEM in the 2014 Manual:a MECHANISM built using a COTS item is a FABRICATED ITEM. R18 precludes access to more than 45 lb of FABRICATED ITEMS, so to be excluded from the 45 lb limit, a COTS item would need to be removed from any FABRICATED ITEM before the team has access to it during an event.

Yeah, it is a whole lot of work.

I think Adam was asking if during an event, he could remove a COTS item (call it a CIM motor) from a practice robot and then use said CIM motor with no questions asked, penalty, etc.

Adam, feel free to correct my interpretation...

[Anupam Goli]

So you're telling me that 125 needs to make sure we only have 45 lbs of spare parts in our lab for Northeastern because our lab is AT the venue? Yeah lemme get right on NOT doing that.

Of course, I've always felt the 45 lbs is upgrade parts. 1 to 1 replacement parts shouldn't count since they are functionally equivalent to parts you bagged. (This isn't how the rule is, it's just how I think it should be)

Our week 5 competition venue is only 2-3 miles from our workshop, so we have access to it. Does this mean we either have to A) offload every part except for the ones we withhold to a storage facility miles away, B) lock everything up and give the key to the lead inspector until the regional is over, or C) bag every part that isn't withholding and have a lockup form so we don't have access to it during competition weekend?

At what point do you say a team doesn't have potential access?

Yes.

Do all of your competitors have the same ability? Otherwise it gives you an exceedingly unfair advantage. This is also why the rules prohibit working on any robot parts outside of the pit area.

How is it unfair that our facility happens to be within walking/subway distance of the venue? I'm just pointing out a flaw in the wording of this rule.

[Steve W]

It all just seems a little bit silly. We have a 6 week build season because FIRST "likes us", but we have to build an entire second robot to have adequate practice time, and then to actually bring spares or upgrades to an event we need to fabricate another 1/3 of our robot or disassemble and reassemble our robot after every event?



To clarify, its okay for any team to bring their practice robot, so long as they write out a list of which parts they are declaring as part of their withholding allowance?

You are allowed only 1 robot at the event, period.

[wilsonmw04]

You are allowed only 1 robot at the event, period.

Please define the "event." This is the ultimate issue. I think the arena is the event not the parking lot.

[Michael Hill]

That's not what I'm saying. Please don't overreact until you understand what I mean.

I'm saying that you will be under the honor system that you've pre-selected your 45lbs of withholding and won't go to your shop to take advantage of resources and spare parts that other teams don't have access to.

If you're not going to say it, then I will.

Spare parts (including fabricated identicals) STILL count against your 45 pound allowance. If you have two robot arms that are identical, one of which is on the bagged robot and another you bring in, the arm you brought in counts against your 45 pounds. If you bring in (or have access to out in your trailer) more than 45 pounds of spare parts (not including things like COTS, raw materials, etc.), you are absolutely in violation of the witholding allowance. Otherwise, there would be no reason to have the witholding allowance rule in the first place. You don't get to have a whole practice robot in your trailer to farm parts from. You have brought ~120 pounds to the event. Even if you only select 45 pounds from it. You still brought your whole practice robot to the competition. You are in violation. Pick the parts that are most likely to break and bring spares of those. Yes, I know many teams violate the rules. So stop it.

[mrnoble]

The easy answer to the problem of having a venue close to or in your fabrication shop: don't use it. Bag and tag and withholding allowance are, until it becomes necessary to have an intervention, on the honor system. Our main venue is less than 2 miles away from our school. If we forgot a tool, we will drive back and get it (and we'll do the same for other teams that don't have this advantage). There is a hardware store nearby; if we need some screws, we'll go get them. But we won't go back to the shop and pull non-COTS parts out as necessary. I recommend everyone take this approach.

"Judging" and "spirit" are loaded words on CD. Usually, when "spirit" is invoked (and when people are criticized for invoking it), we are debating things like inspiration and mentor involvement. This is categorically different: it is the implication and application of a rule that has existed in some variant for many years, and which was reiterated for this year's competition. As such, pointing out that violating a rule is not the way FRC should be played is not the same as criticizing a team for having a culture that falls within the rainbow of styles that teams have.

And in this case, "judging" is not the personal feelings of me or anyone else on CD; it is the ruling of the GDC and the actual judges who, if they knew teams were allowing themselves free access to any part they wanted, would certainly "judge".

[JamesCH95]

How is it unfair that our facility happens to be within walking/subway distance of the venue? I'm just pointing out a flaw in the wording of this rule.

I'll give you a hypothetical with some hyperbole.

Team A and Team B build the same robot. Both robots have a critical flaw in them that breaks in their first match on Friday.

Team A is from a city 500 miles away and all of their people are at the event, so they have to build a replacement in the pits with material and spare parts they brought before pits close. They miss all of their matches that day fixing their robot.

Team B's workspace is 3 miles from the venue, so they drive to their shop, revise their CAD model, press go on their cnc machine, and have a spare part in 30 minutes and are able to attend all of their matches that day.

Team B had the coincidental advantage that their build shop was right next to the venue. This is not fair to Team A.

If you're not going to say it, then I will.

Spare parts (including fabricated identicals) STILL count against your 45 pound allowance. If you have two robot arms that are identical, one of which is on the bagged robot and another you bring in, the arm you brought in counts against your 45 pounds. If you bring in (or have access to out in your trailer) more than 45 pounds of spare parts (not including things like COTS, raw materials, etc.), you are absolutely in violation of the witholding allowance. Otherwise, there would be no reason to have the witholding allowance rule in the first place. You don't get to have a whole practice robot in your trailer to farm parts from. You have brought ~120 pounds to the event. Even if you only select 45 pounds from it. You still brought your whole practice robot to the competition. You are in violation. Pick the parts that are most likely to break and bring spares of those. Yes, I know many teams violate the rules. So stop it.

I agree entirely.

[Anupam Goli]

I'll give you a hypothetical with some hyperbole.

Team A and Team B build the same robot. Both robots have a critical flaw in them that breaks in their first match on Friday.

Team A is from a city 500 miles away and all of their people are at the event, so they have to build a replacement in the pits with material and spare parts they brought before pits close. They miss all of their matches that day fixing their robot.

Team B's workspace is 3 miles from the venue, so they drive to their shop, revise their CAD model, press go on their cnc machine, and have a spare part in 30 minutes and are able to attend all of their matches that day.

Team B had the coincidental advantage that their build shop was right next to the venue. This is not fair to Team A.

That makes sense. In fact. it's in the rules that you have to do all fabrication in the pits or machine shop during competition, and I'm not debating that. Just the wording of the rule is:

At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

So, being 2-3 miles from the venue means I have access to a static set of Fabricated items that exceeds probably 600lbs. Can we define "having access" to mean "in the venue and the surround parking lot"? Otherwise our team, several other teams, and all teams hosting district events are unintentionally breaking this rule.

[notmattlythgoe]

That makes sense. In fact. it's in the rules that you have to do all fabrication in the pits or machine shop during competition, and I'm not debating that. Just the wording of the rule is:

At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

So, being 2-3 miles from the venue means I have access to a static set of Fabricated items that exceeds probably 600lbs. Can we define "having access" to mean "in the venue and the surround parking lot"? Otherwise our team, several other teams, and all teams hosting district events are unintentionally breaking this rule.

I think a simpler change would just be that the withheld parts must be brought in with the robot barring extenuating circumstances of "Hey we forgot this part at our shop yesterday, can we bring it in with us today?" granted that part was intended to be brought with the robot initially.

[JamesCH95]

That makes sense. In fact. it's in the rules that you have to do all fabrication in the pits or machine shop during competition, and I'm not debating that. Just the wording of the rule is:

At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

So, being 2-3 miles from the venue means I have access to a static set of Fabricated items that exceeds probably 600lbs. Can we define "having access" to mean "in the venue and the surround parking lot"? Otherwise our team, several other teams, and all teams hosting district events are unintentionally breaking this rule.

In my opinion the spirit of the rule is to artificially limit (i.e. through the honor system) each team to 45lbs of pre-fab stuff that they have selected before they unbag their robot. I don't care if it's at the venue with you, in a trailer in the parking lot, or at your build space down the street. It must be 45lbs of stuff that was selected before you knew what actually broke on your robot.

[Rynocorn]

That makes sense. In fact. it's in the rules that you have to do all fabrication in the pits or machine shop during competition, and I'm not debating that. Just the wording of the rule is:

At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

So, being 2-3 miles from the venue means I have access to a static set of Fabricated items that exceeds probably 600lbs. Can we define "having access" to mean "in the venue and the surround parking lot"? Otherwise our team, several other teams, and all teams hosting district events are unintentionally breaking this rule.

In my opinion, if you do not use these parts and just bring your withholding allowance parts to the regional than you are following the rule. FIRST does not want you to pack up your lab a pnd move it away for the regional (though that's what it seems the rule entails) but as long as you make an effort to actually follow the rules, it's all good. Technically, you still have access to a large set of parts but if you do not go into your lab than it's all good. Just my opinion in what seems to be a huge discussion/debate

[JohnBoucher]

You are allowed only 1 robot at the event, period.

Where is the like button? Listen to what Steve is saying.

[Qbot2640]

At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

So, being 2-3 miles from the venue means I have access to a static set of Fabricated items that exceeds probably 600lbs. Can we define "having access" to mean "in the venue and the surround parking lot"? Otherwise our team, several other teams, and all teams hosting district events are unintentionally breaking this rule.

You can allow/disallow yourself access in a situation like this. We will be an hour and a half from our nearest venue, but could still travel back and forth if we allowed ourselves to do so...your shop could be in the next building - but if you honor the access pledge, you are not going to go in to grab parts.

[Monochron]

I think the intent of the rule is very clear. You have your robot, 45 pounds of pre-fabricated stuff, and then infinite raw materials. Drawing ANYTHING from a second robot is cheating.

Not to draw sweeping generalizations here, but teams who are trying to bend the rule to fit bringing extra parts outside the 45 pound limit are not upholding the spirit of FIRST. You are allowed to make a set amount of backup/alternate assemblies and that is it. You have to be intelligent with which assemblies you bring to competition. You can only do work to better your robot during pit hours and at the pits.

[Matt_Boehm_329]

If we sent someone to our shop to make a part for our team or another team that is against the rules as well? The definition is vague and causes problems.

I was under the impression that fabrication must take place at the events, during event hours to maintain balance for teams that have a full shop 5 minutes from the event with those across a country

That makes sense. In fact. it's in the rules that you have to do all fabrication in the pits or machine shop during competition, and I'm not debating that. Just the wording of the rule is:



Can we find a rule # for the above mentioned? And has anyone put this to Q&A yet?

Edit: In reference to the original question, i too defend the "static" side. having an unchanging set of prefab parts is very different than pulling up to 45lbs from a set of 120lbs of parts. I also agree with the previously mentioned idea that pulling a part off a practice bot for use on the competition bot outside the regional falls under fabricating/ modifying parts outside the event similar to what was posed by my first quote and is also against the rules

[Anupam Goli]

Can we find a rule # for the above mentioned? And has anyone put this to Q&A yet?

T11:
At events, Teams may only produce FABRICATED ITEMS in the pit areas or provided machine shops, as defined in the Administrative Manual, Section 4.8: The Pit.

[Oblarg]

Place me firmly in the group of people reading this rule as "you must select a set of pre-fabricated parts weighing at most 45lbs prior to competition, and that set cannot change while you are at competition."

If you could not, if asked, state at the beginning of the competition which parts on that practice robot are in your withholding budget and which are off-limits, and if the allowed parts don't weigh under 45 lbs, I'd say you're in violation of the rule.

[orangemoore]

Just to put this out there is to my understanding of the inclusion of the word "Static" was put in place so that teams cannot exchange parts they brought in first with other secondary parts later in the competition.

As for this entire discussion I find that there are a lot of opinions and the rule isn't very clear. If it hasn't been done already a question should to submitted to the Q & A for an official response.

[Andrew Schreiber]

That's not what I'm saying. Please don't overreact until you understand what I mean.

I'm saying that you will be under the honor system that you've pre-selected your 45lbs of withholding and won't go to your shop to take advantage of resources and spare parts that other teams don't have access to.

Except having stuff in a trailer vs in my shop vs in my pit (all of which are at the venue) is, under that interpretation, an irrelevant distinction. If I have 45 lbs of custom fabricated parts preselected does it matter if it is in a box in my trunk, on my practice bot sitting in my trailer, or in my shop on a table? I'd assert that it is a moot point in what state of assembly the parts are in.

So, as long as my parts are preselected (I provide a list and proof that the parts are under 45 lbs) I should be set?



Furthermore, what defines a robot? I can bring in a spare sidecar, PD board, CRIO, and radio and that's not a robot... If they happen to all be zip tied to a piece of lexan for easy carrying? Is that now a robot?

I admit, I'm just being difficult. I have every intention of following the spirit of the rule (don't bring in more than 45 lbs of custom made upgrade parts per event) but I don't see myself locking up parts in my shop to comply with the letter of the rule.

[Matt_Boehm_329]

T11:

Ahh that's what I was looking at too. Thanks.

[FrankJ]

Another way to think of this. The 2 day regional teams have access periods for their robot. They are also limited to the same static 45 lb fabricated parts limit even if they are accessing there robot in their build site that has their practice bots along with comp bots from the last ten games. Before they access their robot, they need to define the static 45 lb. No inspector is going to do that for them or check that they have done so.

[martin417]

You are allowed only 1 robot at the event, period.

In the past, we have brought lots of "stuff" and kept it in the trailer. Some of that stuff might have been past year's bots, this year's practice bot or parts of bots. There was no intention to use any of the fabricated items, but to have raw material and attached COTS items available, not just for our team, but for teams that came up and asked "have you guys got any (fill in the blank)". An old bot has motors, gearboxes, channel, angle, screws, nuts, etc. that could be useful to our team or any other team that needs parts or raw material.

If I take a piece of an arm off of last year's (or this year's) bot, cut it to length or dill a hole in it to make it a brace for the competition bot, I simply used some of the unlimited amount of raw materials I am allowed to bring.

You guys need to loosen up.

[Matt_Boehm_329]

The manual defines Robot in its glossary as:

ROBOT: an electromechanical assembly built by an FRC Team to perform specific tasks when competing in AERIAL ASSIST. It includes all of the basic systems required to be an active participant in the game: power, communications, control, mobility, and actuation. The implementation must obviously follow a design approach intended to play AERIAL ASSIST (e.g. a box of unassembled parts placed on the FIELD or a ROBOT designed to play a different game would not satisfy this definition).

[rlowe61]

T11:

I would suggest reading the reference 4.8 of the Admin Manual, as it is quite extensive on what all is covered.

Also read the following from the game manual.
4.4.3 R15

Many teams have local events, it's in the spirit of FIRST to be "Hands Off" during competitions' down periods (after pits close)
If you're trying to find a loop-hole, it's probably not in the spirit.

Many teams build practice bots, many teams build replacement pieces (part of their 45 pounds) that is all within the rules. Best to leave the practice bot at home and don't take the chance of violating a rule.

Good Luck to everyone this week and in following weeks.

[notmattlythgoe]

In the past, we have brought lots of "stuff" and kept it in the trailer. Some of that stuff might have been past year's bots, this year's practice bot or parts of bots. There was no intention to use any of the fabricated items, but to have raw material and attached COTS items available, not just for our team, but for teams that came up and asked "have you guys got any (fill in the blank)". An old bot has motors, gearboxes, channel, angle, screws, nuts, etc. that could be useful to our team or any other team that needs parts or raw material.

If I take a piece of an arm off of last year's (or this year's) bot, cut it to length or dill a hole in it to make it a brace for the competition bot, I simply used some of the unlimited amount of raw materials I am allowed to bring.

You guys need to loosen up.

That wouldn't be an issue to me. I'd see that as falling in the unlimited raw materials category.

[Tristan Lall]

Place me firmly in the group of people reading this rule as "you must select a set of pre-fabricated parts weighing at most 45lbs prior to competition, and that set cannot change while you are at competition."

If you could not, if asked, state at the beginning of the competition which parts on that practice robot are in your withholding budget and which are off-limits, and if the allowed parts don't weigh under 45 lbs, I'd say you're in violation of the rule.
That's exactly how I see it. Also, it's very nice that FIRST has finally updated this rule. For years, it was questionably enforceable due to ambiguity. While not ironclad, the word "static" goes a long way. However, this does imply that a lot of past practice is illegal, which may not go over well with the teams.


There is no standard process for providing documentation of that set of parts, and teams typically won't be asked about it—but if you are asked by an official, you will need to be able to put a list together and justify it. This isn't supposed to be like collapsing the waveform (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function_collapse), where the state is only determined when the information is collected—to comply with the requirement that it be static, that set has to be predetermined, even if it isn't documented.

If in the position to enforce the rule, I would interpret it leniently and say that the set can change between competitions. (The rule refers to "an" event, not to all events, so that interpretation is plausible, and certainly practical.)


As for the teams who could be in a position to access their shop (or other resource where more than 45 lb of fabricated parts exist) during a regional event, they need to be able to justify how some of those parts are in fact inaccessible. There's no required procedure, but whatever you come up with needs to effectively limit access. Again, you aren't typically asked, but if you are asked, your answer should have been predetermined.

[Nick.kremer]

What this really comes down to is what FIRST means by "static set".

Could a team hypothetically build 3 mechanism (mec1, mec2, mec3) all weighing 20lbs and keep them off-sight. And after playing a few matches choose that mec1 and mec3 are most appropriate to add to their robot?

I don't think so, this to me doesn't qualify as a static set, as it clearly changes based on need, which doesn't fit the definition of static.

my $0.02

[Jared Russell]

The rules as written are relatively unambiguous (other than perhaps the precise meaning of the word "static").

But I am not sure why functionally identical fabricated replacement parts are no longer allowed in unlimited quantities. Isn't letting each team field a fully functional robot for the entire event more inspirational and important than any of the possible reasons why this rule exists?

Space at the venue? Teams are allowed unlimited raw materials, so this cannot be the reason.

Difficulty of enforcing the "functionally identical" part? There is so much else in FIRST that is already based on the honor system...

Fairness? I argue that a weight limit for spare parts is more unfair. Many teams lack the ability to fabricate a mechanism that is both highly functional and lightweight, limiting their ability to fit spares within the weight limit.

Considering that this is both the most violent game of the bumper era, and extending outside the frame perimeter is essentially necessary to complete many basic game tasks, I hope that FIRST reconsiders this policy.

[JamesCH95]

Except having stuff in a trailer vs in my shop vs in my pit (all of which are at the venue) is, under that interpretation, an irrelevant distinction. If I have 45 lbs of custom fabricated parts preselected does it matter if it is in a box in my trunk, on my practice bot sitting in my trailer, or in my shop on a table? I'd assert that it is a moot point in what state of assembly the parts are in.

So, as long as my parts are preselected (I provide a list and proof that the parts are under 45 lbs) I should be set?



Furthermore, what defines a robot? I can bring in a spare sidecar, PD board, CRIO, and radio and that's not a robot... If they happen to all be zip tied to a piece of lexan for easy carrying? Is that now a robot?

I admit, I'm just being difficult. I have every intention of following the spirit of the rule (don't bring in more than 45 lbs of custom made upgrade parts per event) but I don't see myself locking up parts in my shop to comply with the letter of the rule.

I'd think so.

I know you are, but someone has to be the devil's advocate (just not the devil's lawyer). ;)

I wouldn't lock up parts in the shop, or lock up the shop. I think it should be an artificial constraint enforced by the honor code, anything more just gets out of hand really quickly.

[Jaxom]

There was no intention to use any of the fabricated items, but to have raw material and attached COTS items available...

If I take a piece of an arm off of last year's (or this year's) bot, cut it to length or dill a hole in it to make it a brace for the competition bot, I simply used some of the unlimited amount of raw materials I am allowed to bring.


From the glossary: FABRICATED ITEM: any COMPONENT or MECHANISM that has been altered, built, cast, constructed, concocted, created, cut, heat treated, machined, manufactured, modified, painted, produced, surface coated, or conjured partially or completely into the final form in which it will be used on the ROBOT.

I submit that when you have "attached COTS items" or you take a piece off an older robot you don't have raw materials. Even if your arm is nothing but a straight piece of 80/20 you probably cut it from a longer piece of stock, and the word "cut" is in the definition.

To me, the only nebulous part of this is T11's use of the word "produce". I think it's obvious that you're not allowed to have a drill press in your hotel room to make parts at night. What's not obvious to me is whether or not "removal from an existing <something>" is the same as "produce".

This definitely needs to be asked in the Q&A. I'm pretty sure I know what the answer will be -- "removal" = "produce", and therefore having a practice robot in the parking lot or hotel isn't a "static" set of fabricated items -- but it's worth asking.

[IronicDeadBird]

Two things cause I gotta run.

1. I feel like the limited amount of spare parts is something that actually forces more thought into designing a robot. When you design a robot all around performing well and you have done your job and you can win at any event if you sail smoothly. Yet taking the time to design something that can handle a few bumps in the road is a beneficial experience for students. Its a humbling experience to learn the hard way even when everything is done right, something can still go wrong.
2. It would be interesting to allow teams to bring as much as they wanted IF they donated anything that was "extra" was given to First to be available to all teams during a competition. This year I see a lot of similar robot designs and I imagine a fair number of fabricated parts could be tossed between teams and used.
Looking back though this idea can be exploited in so many ways.

Last little bit...
I genuinely feel sorry for a team who has to repair more then 45 pounds of damage to a robot. That is a lot of stress put onto students in a very short amount of time.

[Ian Curtis]

Since it looks like I was interpreting this rule differently than others, can someone explain to me what this means for District teams and the robot access period? Is not kosher to take assemblies off of a practice robot and put them on the competition robot? If we have a list of this part and this part and this part, does that make it okay?

We a team broke their robot practicing during an access period, are they not allowed to take a 15 pound component from their practice robot and replace it?

[Joseph1825]

Since it looks like I was interpreting this rule differently than others, can someone explain to me what this means for District teams and the robot access period? Is not kosher to take assemblies off of a practice robot and put them on the competition robot? If we have a list of this part and this part and this part, does that make it okay?

We a team broke their robot practicing during an access period, are they not allowed to take a 15 pound component from their practice robot and replace it?
How I would interpret this rule is before a competion (and by extension, before your robot access period). you must define (read, "choose") up to 45 pounds of spare items. Even if you never write the list down and show it to anyone, the important thing is that you have to choose what is going to be in your 45 pounds before the start of the competition (or access period).
By my interpretation it doesn't matter where the parts are located but they must be chosen before the event. (ie. "My spare parts for this event are a 30 pound device we brought with us and a 15 pound device that is sitting in my hotel room that I will get if I need to.)

[neshera]

So you're telling me that 125 needs to make sure we only have 45 lbs of spare parts in our lab for Northeastern because our lab is AT the venue? Yeah lemme get right on NOT doing that.

Of course, I've always felt the 45 lbs is upgrade parts. 1 to 1 replacement parts shouldn't count since they are functionally equivalent to parts you bagged. (This isn't how the rule is, it's just how I think it should be)

1) Seriously? You don't see having that immediate access to all/any of your team's spare parts, COTS or fabricated, constitutes an unfair advantage? What do you think a team competing against you from, say, Mexico would make of this? What about a team that can't afford a big trailer to park in the parking lot? This is EXACTLY why the "45 pound rule" exists. Even in years where lots of robot parts break. Especially in years where lots of robot parts break.

2) 1 to 1 replacement issue: I understand from your post you recognize this is just what you would like, not what the rules currently state. I trust you and your team are professional enough to abide by the rules as they are, not as you think they should be. ;)
But let me tell you why I think the rule should stand: teams with less resources to stockpile spare parts, teams that can't afford to build a second/practice robot, teams that have to travel and ship their parts from great distances - these teams want to compete with you based on your smarts and ingenuity, not on how much money you have or how close you happen to be to a regional venue.

When you explain FRC to someone new, and explain that everyone in the world finds out the game at the exact same time, and has the exact same six weeks to build their robot, and has to stay in the same budget for the robot, and has to repair their robots with what they have on hand at the venue - they get it. They get why FIRST if fair. And they are impressed that we do all of that on an honor system. It's one of the biggest concepts we impress on rookie students and parents. It's part of our culture - our team's culture, and our FIRST culture.

[neshera]

In the past, we have brought lots of "stuff" and kept it in the trailer. Some of that stuff might have been past year's bots, this year's practice bot or parts of bots. There was no intention to use any of the fabricated items, but to have raw material and attached COTS items available, not just for our team, but for teams that came up and asked "have you guys got any (fill in the blank)". An old bot has motors, gearboxes, channel, angle, screws, nuts, etc. that could be useful to our team or any other team that needs parts or raw material.

If I take a piece of an arm off of last year's (or this year's) bot, cut it to length or dill a hole in it to make it a brace for the competition bot, I simply used some of the unlimited amount of raw materials I am allowed to bring.


Emphasis mine.
Some hypothetical problems I could foresee:
- Do you publicize this in any way? If not, then only teams that happen to stumble upon your stash benefit.
- If you have better, more expensive materials on your last year's robot than I have on my current robots, can I simply replace it? Can I take off my cardboard and use your Lexan? Your gearbox that is better than mine?
- Can I replace burnt out motors/C-Rios etc. with your stuff? Can I just put burnt out motors on my robot before I even bag it, and then take all your spares?
- Do you access your trailer before/after the pits are open to grab stuff to work on in the pits during pit hours? If so, can you open up your trailer for me at 10pm on Thursday night for me to do a little browsing? How about at 2am? and can you bring some coffee?

I know I'm getting a bit ridiculous here, but you can see where things could go. Now if you don't mind, I'm going to do a little loosening up - it just looks like I'm taking a nap. ;)

[neshera]

This brings up an interesting question:

Our 2nd event is 2-3 miles away from our working facility. Does that mean every single part in our facility counts to the 45 lb limit, since we have access to it during the competition?

Only if you allow yourselves to access them.
A rule of thumb here might be:
Behave as if you had traveled to the Regional from a thousand miles away.
This is where gracious professionalism comes in to play.

[Richard Wallace]

I think Adam was asking if during an event, he could remove a COTS item (call it a CIM motor) from a practice robot and then use said CIM motor with no questions asked, penalty, etc.

Adam, feel free to correct my interpretation...I understood Adam's question the same way you did. My answer is that the practice robot is a FABRICATED ITEM, and that team access to such items is limited to 45 lb during an event as required by R18.

[martin417]

From the glossary:

I submit that when you have "attached COTS items" or you take a piece off an older robot you don't have raw materials. Even if your arm is nothing but a straight piece of 80/20 you probably cut it from a longer piece of stock, and the word "cut" is in the definition.


I think you are reading way too much into this. If I bought a 20' piece of 1" angle last year, and cut 1 foot of off of it to make a robot part, then by your definition, the other 19' would be off limits for this year.

Also by your definition, if I had a piece of 8020 that was 24" long on my last years robot, that I then disassembled and put in the parts bin, I couldn't cut a 9" piece off of it and use it this years bot.

Pardon my bluntness, but that is the most ridiculous interpretation of the rules I have yet seen.

Many of the components of every robot I have been associated with were made from scrap parts and pieces of material from the company where I work. They had been previously cut, drilled or otherwise modified to be a part of something else. After the team further cut, shaped and modified them, they became robot parts. In the following years, as long as the part is modified from its condition as used in the previous robot, it is legal for this years robot.

There is no rule that describes "raw material" as brand new, never cut or modified material. If I use a piece of 1" angle, and apply manufacturing processes to it to make it a part of my robot, its history has no bearing on its legality as a robot part. There is no magic that is imbued into the metal when it is made into a robot part. I get no advantage from using that part unless I use it in the same exact configuration as it was used in a previous robot.

[Andrew Schreiber]

1) Seriously? You don't see having that immediate access to all/any of your team's spare parts, COTS or fabricated, constitutes an unfair advantage? What do you think a team competing against you from, say, Mexico would make of this? What about a team that can't afford a big trailer to park in the parking lot? This is EXACTLY why the "45 pound rule" exists. Even in years where lots of robot parts break. Especially in years where lots of robot parts break.

2) 1 to 1 replacement issue: I understand from your post you recognize this is just what you would like, not what the rules currently state. I trust you and your team are professional enough to abide by the rules as they are, not as you think they should be. ;)
But let me tell you why I think the rule should stand: teams with less resources to stockpile spare parts, teams that can't afford to build a second/practice robot, teams that have to travel and ship their parts from great distances - these teams want to compete with you based on your smarts and ingenuity, not on how much money you have or how close you happen to be to a regional venue.

When you explain FRC to someone new, and explain that everyone in the world finds out the game at the exact same time, and has the exact same six weeks to build their robot, and has to stay in the same budget for the robot, and has to repair their robots with what they have on hand at the venue - they get it. They get why FIRST if fair. And they are impressed that we do all of that on an honor system. It's one of the biggest concepts we impress on rookie students and parents. It's part of our culture - our team's culture, and our FIRST culture.


Let me reiterate what I said and hope that you can read it this time.

Fact: We have a lab at Northeastern University
Fact: All of our stuff is there
Fact: There is an event at Northeastern University
Fact: We are competing at that event


Based on the logic presented earlier in this thread it would stand to reason that by the very virtue of these facts 125 is breaking the rules since we have > 45 lbs of fabricated parts at the venue (specifically all of our prototypes, test chassis, old robots, replacement parts, broken parts... heck, I think we have close to 15 lbs in prototype launcher forks alone).

The only solution I could see to this issue (because under that reading of the rules it is an issue and I would, of course, need to rectify it) would be to remove all of the offending parts from my lab. Do you understand why I have an issue with this notion?

This isn't even approaching the issue that our entire machine shop is available to us at the venue which I assume would also fall under your statement of unfair.

I'll leave the exercise of redoing this with our shop 5 minutes across the street from the venue (or 5 miles) as you will have the same issue with fairness. To which I will simply say, "So?". FIRST isn't fair and neither is life. Legal situation - I bring in 30 spare VP versaplanetaries of various configurations because I want to change my intake roller speed. That's likely over $1000 in parts. Nowhere is that on my BOM. But team 5905 that doesn't have a large budget and is 4 students out of a dad's garage can't do it. And the team from Mexico certainly can't, shipping would be silly on that. You gonna tell me I can't do that next? It's the EXACT same situation.



I'm going to ignore the thinly veiled assertion that I am planning on breaking rules.

[kevin.li.rit]

I bring in 30 spare VP versaplanetaries of various configurations because I want to change my intake roller speed.


Wouldn't the 30 spare gearboxes all count your total robot weight if you intended to use them in different configurations?

[martin417]

Wouldn't the 30 spare gearboxes all count your total robot weight if you intended to use them in different configurations?

No, they are COTS items.

[kevin.li.rit]

No, they are COTS items.

Even if you intended to use the different gearboxes to give your rollers different speeds? Wouldn't this count under the different configuration clause of the robot weight?

[martin417]

Even if you intended to use the different gearboxes to give your rollers different speeds?

What part of "unlimited raw materials and COTS items" is unclear?

[thefro526]

But I am not sure why functionally identical fabricated replacement parts are no longer allowed in unlimited quantities. Isn't letting each team field a fully functional robot for the entire event more inspirational and important than any of the possible reasons why this rule exists?

(removed stuff for length)

Considering that this is both the most violent game of the bumper era, and extending outside the frame perimeter is essentially necessary to complete many basic game tasks, I hope that FIRST reconsiders this policy.

As I was reading through the manual on Bag Day, I wondered why the 'identical replacement parts' clause had been removed as well. I guess looking at it one way, some may have argued that this essentially allowed teams to 'upgrade' their robot while still keeping the parts 'identical' (to most observers) - but then again, even that doesn't seem to make sense.

Regardless, the whole 'keeping the practice robot in the trailer' thing doesn't bother me one bit. Looking at the 120lbs of robot sitting in the parking lot, I'd be willing to bet that a minimum of 1/4th of it could be made into 'unmodified COTS' components, at which point, if the team were to use them, it'd really be no different than getting a replacement from spare parts. After that, assuming you've removed about 30lbs of COTS stuff, you've probably got 90lbs of robot left. How much of that 90lbs is actually stuff that can be transferred from one machine to the other? I'd be willing to wager not much more than half, if even that much... You've got to remember, the team in question would be disassembling their robot in the parking lot to get a spare off of it, so I highly doubt they're going to spend 2-3-4 hours taking the thing apart just to replace something on their comp bot, but who knows.

All of that being said, I understand why people are arguing it's illegality, and I'd have to say that depending on how exactly you phrase it, it's either illegal or at least 'questionable' - but I'm not sure if it's really the biggest problem here... There are teams out there that struggle to build competitive machines every year, and are tempted by 'stretching' the bagging rules - we've all heard about it, and probably have seen it happen first hand - these are the teams that we should be worried about, not the ones with the practice robots in the trailer. I'd be willing to argue that most teams with a practice machine in the trailer aren't going to be the ones that you have to worry about stretching the unbag rules...

One last note on the spare parts thing, I'm pretty sure that removing the 'identical part' clauses from the unbag/witholding limits only serves to hurt under resourced teams. Technically, according to the rules, I could in theory, use one of my unbag periods to turn some amount of raw materials into spare parts, throw them in the bag, and be perfectly fine. The only limiting factor here would be the resources the team has access to during the unbag period - which as we know, varies greatly from team to team...

[thefro526]

Even if you intended to use the different gearboxes to give your rollers different speeds? Wouldn't this count under the different configuration clause of the robot weight?

For the purpose of inspection, yes, these would count towards the robot's weight. The team in question would need to narrow the field of (30) transmissions down to some number that wouldn't increase their machine's weight outside of the 120lb limit.

Now, if they were to test before they were inspected, and narrow (30) gearboxes down to one, there are no problems here.

As far as getting in the door is concerned, since the (30) transmissions would be unmodified COTS components, they're a non-issue, at least when looking at the withholding allowance.

[Mark Sheridan]

So if I assemble a gearbox out of various COTS parts, its a fabricated item? If another team breaks a near identical gearbox and I want to given them mine; I have to dismantle mine to COTS parts and reassemble because my gearbox was not part of their original 45 pounds?

what about lending a spare intake? a custom wheel that fits 1/2 hex? What if I take a fabricated item, and remake it into something else at the competition with another team, can they use it then? in 2011 you could lend a minibot for coopertition points. A lot of cool blockers were made last year during the lunch break, how come those collaborations can't become more sophisticated? What if a team made a simple plug and play hot zone detection? Would they have to supply it to every team to be fair or could they give it only to their alliance members?

Seems like these rules work against efforts to help another. If I can't give a non-cots part because its not declared with the original 45 pounds, I feel that is against the spirit of FIRST.

[nixiebunny]

Well, I'm glad I asked. I had no idea that this was such a loaded topic.

Our intent in bringing the practice bot was to harvest COTS parts from it. We brought enough raw materials to fabricate repair parts in the pits, and have done so, rather than use fabricated parts of the practice bot.

Based on the responses here, it sounds like it's more sporting to do the harvesting at home. We'll do that for our next regional.

Thanks for all your input.

[kevin.li.rit]

What part of "unlimited raw materials and COTS items" is unclear?

None. The unclear part is part of the hypothetical of bringing 30 COTS gearboxes of different ratios to provide different speeds to intake rollers.

[martin417]

None. The unclear part is part of the hypothetical of bringing 30 COTS gearboxes of different ratios to provide different speeds to intake rollers.

If your different gear ratio caused the gearbox to have a different weight, then you should have the bot re-inspected (as you should do any time to make a modification if that modification makes a change to your weight, or adds a new component.) But it is perfectly legal to bring all those gearboxes, and they do not count as part of your weight. Obviously, you could not install all those gearboxes due to rules about number of motors, weight, etc. But you could certainly bring them in.

[shades23]

Why dont we ask first?

[bduddy]

If your different gear ratio caused the gearbox to have a different weight, then you should have the bot re-inspected (as you should do any time to make a modification if that modification makes a change to your weight, or adds a new component.) But it is perfectly legal to bring all those gearboxes, and they do not count as part of your weight. Obviously, you could not install all those gearboxes due to rules about number of motors, weight, etc. But you could certainly bring them in.You should have the robot re-inspected regardless of whether or not the weight was changed - nothing in the rule about re-inspections mentions weight.

T10

If a ROBOT is modified after it has passed Inspection, other than modifications described in T8 [interchangeable parts already inspected], that ROBOT must be re-Inspected. Also note that if you plan to repeatedly switch gearboxes, the inspectors may consider them "interchangeable parts" and add all of them to your robot's weight.

[kevin.li.rit]

Also note that if you plan to repeatedly switch gearboxes, the inspectors may consider them "interchangeable parts" and add all of them to your robot's weight.

That's what I was driving at but that's a conversation for a different thread. This one is intense enough.

[Andrew Schreiber]

None. The unclear part is part of the hypothetical of bringing 30 COTS gearboxes of different ratios to provide different speeds to intake rollers.

It was a scenario prior to inspection to go to the practice field and see what ratio worked best. It's contrived but well within the rules.

[Jaxom]

I think you are reading way too much into this. If I bought a 20' piece of 1" angle last year, and cut 1 foot of off of it to make a robot part, then by your definition, the other 19' would be off limits for this year.

I never said that; I was talking about the parts taken off of a robot. There's nothing wrong with using left-overs from whatever raw materials you had from wherever or whenever. Those aren't fabricated items, but the part you cut off to use on a robot is. I'm pretty sure I remember a Q&A or rule somewhere that says it's OK to cut raw materials in order to be able to transport them, but that may have been some previous year. I sure hope that still applies.

Also by your definition, if I had a piece of 8020 that was 24" long on my last years robot, that I then disassembled and put in the parts bin, I couldn't cut a 9" piece off of it and use it this years bot.

That's an interesting one. By definition, your 24" piece from last year is a fabricated part. Cutting 9" off of it doesn't seem to be an issue (you're using the old stock as a raw material that happens to be 24" long, I think), if that 9" is unmodified (although I could be wrong). But if, for example, it has mounting holes drilled in the 9" section, then it is a fabricated part (by definition) and isn't allowed on this year's robot. The first sentence in the blue box under R13: Please note that this means that FABRICATED ITEMS from ROBOTS entered in previous FIRST competitions may not be used on ROBOTS in the 2014 FRC. Also see the Q&A; Q102.

Pardon my bluntness, but that is the most ridiculous interpretation of the rules I have yet seen.

OK. You're entitled to your opinion, of course; obviously I disagree. Show me the rule that says I'm wrong. And I'm sure if you think a bit you can find that you've seen more ridiculous things in FRC; I know I have. :)

Many of the components of every robot I have been associated with were made from scrap parts and pieces of material from the company where I work. They had been previously cut, drilled or otherwise modified to be a part of something else. After the team further cut, shaped and modified them, they became robot parts. In the following years, as long as the part is modified from its condition as used in the previous robot, it is legal for this years robot.

I would hope that scrap pieces from somewhere besides a robot could be treated as raw materials, as long as the "scrap" isn't some kind of assembly used as a unit that isn't available as a COTS part for everyone else. Remember, I was specifically talking about parts taken off previous years' robots. I'm not sure that further modification from a fabrication makes something legal or not; sounds like a good Q&A. I think re-using mounting holes drilled last year might make it illegal. Likewise a shape (say you drilled new mounting holes in a cam you made last year) that was created in a previous year may not be legal.

There is no rule that describes "raw material" as brand new, never cut or modified material. If I use a piece of 1" angle, and apply manufacturing processes to it to make it a part of my robot, its history has no bearing on its legality as a robot part. There is no magic that is imbued into the metal when it is made into a robot part. I get no advantage from using that part unless I use it in the same exact configuration as it was used in a previous robot.

The history of a part *can* have bearing on its legality as a robot part; see my citations above. And yes you do get an advantage. You don't have to spend the time to fabricate the part, and because you built it in a previous year you violate the build season schedule.

[Mr. Van]

The whole problem here is the idea of a duplicate robot for the purposes of spare parts. Having one on site means that you have access to potentially 120 lbs of spare parts. Even if you only bring in one piece from the "backup bot", you have access to any part of that robot. Just because it is in your trailer, truck, shop or whatever instead of inside the venue, you still have access to 120 lbs of fabricated items.

I don't think anyone is contesting stockpiles of COTS or items that can be re-purposed as "raw stock" (reuse is better than recycling!). Bring all of that stuff you want - as COTS or raw stock. I find no issue with hacking off some material from a robot carcass for use as long as what was used was in the form of raw material when you began working on it in the pit.

The issue is that by having a "backup bot", you have brought and have access to more than the withholding allowance of 45 lbs of FABRICATED parts - even if it isn't inside the venue.

If the withholding allowance is only specific to what is in the actual building, it is essentially meaningless. Build any amount of replacement/upgrade parts and then select which ones you need based on how the event plays out... That's not what I think is the intent of the allowance in the first place.

- Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox

[neshera]

Mr. Schreiber:

1: "The only solution I could see to this issue (because under that reading of the rules it is an issue and I would, of course, need to rectify it) would be to remove all of the offending parts from my lab."

How about closing the door(s) to your lab and not accessing the fabricated parts in there during the competition? You could just bring 45 pounds into your pit area on Thursday.

2: "This isn't even approaching the issue that our entire machine shop is available to us at the venue which I assume would also fall under your statement of unfair. "

Only if you use it. Again, put yourself in the shoes of any other team at the Northeastern Regional. More importantly, however -
T11
At events, Teams may only produce FABRICATED ITEMS in the pit areas or provided machine shops, as defined in the Administrative Manual, Section 4.8: The Pit.
It's not a problem to have your shop/lab/parts at the same institution as the competition. The distance from the field to your CNC machine is not the issue.

3: "FIRST isn't fair and neither is life."

Both true statements. But recognize that part of the attraction of sports in general is that there are rules to try to "level the playing field." If the goal of FIRST is to change a culture, and to make it a mass movement, it is in all of our interest to try to make the competitions as fair as we can, and to attract as many students as we can.

4: "I'm going to ignore the thinly veiled assertion that I am planning on breaking rules."
That's what the emoticon was for! No assertion made.
Good luck at your competitions!

[s_forbes]

I'm surprised this thread blew up so much. 2/2 for Bit Buckets controversy threads. :)

I find it interesting that the term "intent of the rule" is used so frequently in this thread. As none of us are on the GDC, I doubt any of us have a thorough understanding of what the "intent of the rule" is. My take on the rules is that we have a limited weight worth of withholding parts so that a team cannot show up to a competition with a completely brand new robot to replace the bagged one. I do not think the intent of the rule is to limit how many spare duplicate parts can be brought to an event, although the 2014 wording acts as a limiter on this. Again, not on the GDC, so I am simply posting an opinion.

Also, I'm still waiting for a team to build three robots, bag two, and develop the third as a practice robot at home. That should lead to some fun discussion!

[Maldridge422]

There have been other threads on this topic. I like this one (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1344700) in particular.

[tStano]

R18
At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs. Items made at an Event do not count towards this weight limit.


The only unclear thing I see in this is the word 'static'. It could mean
A. You can't exchange parts throughout the event
B. You must decide what you will bring before you start the event

If the intention is A, then a practice robot in the parking lot is fine, and you can replace stuff as it breaks, as long as you don't rip more than 45 lbs of manufactured parts off it. As far as I'm concerned, if its COTS, then you can take whatever you like.

If the intention is B, a practice robot in the parking lot that you take stuff off as it breaks would be illegal unless perhaps you kept a list of what you could take off your practice robot,. Again, COTS doesn't count and you can go to your practice bot(or anywhere, for that matter) and rip as much COTS off as you like.

For the shop being in the venue or 5000 miles away, this seems entirely irrelevant. You can use a static(defined either in A or B) 45lb set of fabricated materials. I think its entirely fine even to go into your shop. Your chairman's presenters can practice, or you can work on or view CAD, or you can even fabricate stuff to bring in as witholding to your next event. In addition, you can grab as much COTS stuff as you like. You CANNOT manufacture items that you put on the competition robot at the competition its currently at.

As for the giving manufactured parts to other teams thing. We'll use the example of blockers, if the blocker were created at the event or bagged with a robot, you can do anything you want with it, (providing it passes inspection, modular parts, etc). If the blocker was brought in with witholding, I see it okay if the team that brought the blocker gives it to someone on their alliance, and then the team gives it back to the team who built it after their match. The team who built it can then redistribute it to someone on their alliance in a new match. I see this as okay as the team that gains the most from it is the team that used it as part of their witholding.

*I'm not trying to find manual passages that back me up, I'm just trying to look at the spirit of the rule

** Can someone do a QA for
"If I bring a practice robot to an event and leave it in a trailer, removing parts from it as they break on my competition robot, but I never remove more than 45lbs, would I be violating 'static' in R18?"

[cadandcookies]

Sorry, but my team can only afford so many Talons, and half of them are on our practice bot. Practice bot comes with, us, but it also doesn't actually have anything other than COTS parts for us to harvest this year.

You're free to your opinion and I'm free to mine, and until I hear from a definitive (and authoritative) source, such as Q&A, I'll play by our interpretation of the intent of the rules.

[mrnoble]

** Can someone do a QA for
"If I bring a practice robot to an event and leave it in a trailer, removing parts from it as they break on my competition robot, but I never remove more than 45lbs, would I be violating 'static' in R18?"

I'll do it. Forgive me, but I haven't ever posted a Q. I'm registered. How do I do it?

[EricH]

I'll do it. Forgive me, but I haven't ever posted a Q. I'm registered. How do I do it?

You have to be logged in using your team's account. (See TIMS for that.)

Then you have to search for a similar question.

Then you get the "submit a question" button. Click, and you get 300 characters, or something like that. I suggest doing a followup question off of Q416, asking if using an old or practice robot that weighed more than 45 lbs and was kept outside the arena as a parts supply would be legal, provided that less than 45 lbs were brought in total. It's a similar situation.

[Tristan Lall]

Sorry, but my team can only afford so many Talons, and half of them are on our practice bot. Practice bot comes with, us, but it also doesn't actually have anything other than COTS parts for us to harvest this year.
I don't get it. Are your Talons fabricated parts? Do you have more than 45 lb of them? (So many, indeed.)

Why would that justify bringing your whole practice bot, rather than just 45 lb of fabricated parts? (Or does your practice bot weigh less than 45 lb?)

[DampRobot]

Keep in mind that an outsider to FIRST just reading the manual would almost certainly consider using the 45lb withholding allowance to overhaul the robot on Thursday as against the "spirit" of the stop build rules. You're supposed to build a robot in 6 weeks, why should you be able to keep working on a large part of your robot far past ship date?

If you look at the rule in question, it appears like you're allowed to bring 45lbs of fabricated parts in to the event, and can't change what counts as that 45lbs as the event goes on. Does it really matter where those parts came from?

[Mr V]

Wouldn't the 30 spare gearboxes all count your total robot weight if you intended to use them in different configurations?

No, they are COTS items.

If they are versa planetaries for example they are only COTS items if they aren't assembled. If they had previously been assembled you can return them to being COTS parts by disassembling them to the state they are in when purchased. This applies to all items that are purchased un-assembled which applies to many transmissions.

[bduddy]

No, they are COTS items.That has nothing to do with them counting towards the weight of your robot. If they are intended as interchangeable parts (a concept which is not fully defined in the rules), they all count.

[martin417]

That has nothing to do with them counting towards the weight of your robot. If they are intended as interchangeable parts (a concept which is not fully defined in the rules), they all count.

So when you read the rule, what you see is "unlimited COTS items and raw material, unless you plan to use those items on your robot."?

[mrnoble]

My understanding of the hypothetical versaplanetary problem is as follows.

1) Are the gearboxes pre-assembled? If yes, they are modified, in a way that is intended to be for the robot in question, and should count towards the 45 pounds. If not, or if they are disassembled back to original condition, they are COTS. Even so, "modifying" a gearbox by putting it together isn't something I as your competitor would grouse about, unless...

2) they are intended to be swapped out interchangeably to modify the performance of the robot, especially from round to round, based on the desired function per each round's competitive requirements. If so, you are treating them the same way other teams might treat interchangeable appendages. In this case, they should all definitely count towards your 45, and I WOULD grouse about it.

[Jaxom]

1) ...
2) ...
1) I think you're pretty safe in your understanding, since this very example is used in the manual when discussing fabricated parts and COTS items. :)
2) And if this is the case, ALL of the interchangeable gearboxes need to be weighed with your robot and total 120 lbs or less. In which case you don't need to be re-inspected when you change them from round to round. This having nothing to do with them being COTS or not, of course.

[cgmv123]

My understanding of the hypothetical versaplanetary problem is as follows.

1) Are the gearboxes pre-assembled? If yes, they are modified, in a way that is intended to be for the robot in question, and should count towards the 45 pounds. If not, or if they are disassembled back to original condition, they are COTS. Even so, "modifying" a gearbox by putting it together isn't something I as your competitor would grouse about, unless...

2) they are intended to be swapped out interchangeably to modify the performance of the robot, especially from round to round, based on the desired function per each round's competitive requirements. If so, you are treating them the same way other teams might treat interchangeable appendages. In this case, they should all definitely count towards your 45, and I WOULD grouse about it.

Unless the gearboxes come from VexPro unassembled, and you assemble them, they should not count towards the 45 since they're COTS. If some or all of them are used interchangeably on your robot, then every gearbox that is used counts toward the 120 lb robot weight.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Mr. Schreiber:

1: "The only solution I could see to this issue (because under that reading of the rules it is an issue and I would, of course, need to rectify it) would be to remove all of the offending parts from my lab."

How about closing the door(s) to your lab and not accessing the fabricated parts in there during the competition? You could just bring 45 pounds into your pit area on Thursday.

2: "This isn't even approaching the issue that our entire machine shop is available to us at the venue which I assume would also fall under your statement of unfair. "

Only if you use it. Again, put yourself in the shoes of any other team at the Northeastern Regional. More importantly, however -
T11
At events, Teams may only produce FABRICATED ITEMS in the pit areas or provided machine shops, as defined in the Administrative Manual, Section 4.8: The Pit.
It's not a problem to have your shop/lab/parts at the same institution as the competition. The distance from the field to your CNC machine is not the issue.

3: "FIRST isn't fair and neither is life."

Both true statements. But recognize that part of the attraction of sports in general is that there are rules to try to "level the playing field." If the goal of FIRST is to change a culture, and to make it a mass movement, it is in all of our interest to try to make the competitions as fair as we can, and to attract as many students as we can.

4: "I'm going to ignore the thinly veiled assertion that I am planning on breaking rules."
That's what the emoticon was for! No assertion made.
Good luck at your competitions!



Wait, you mean like I could do if I merely had a list of parts off my practice bot that was sitting in the trailer?

Hmm...

[Anupam Goli]

FRC Q&A 396:

https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/396/some-clarification-is-needed-about-rules-r15-r18-between-feb-19-and-our-first-competition-can-we-continue-to-build-develop-using-our-45-pounds-of-static-set-of-fabricated-items-as-long-as-we-do

Q. Some clarification is needed about rules R15 & R18. Between Feb 19 and our first competition, can we continue to build/develop using our 45 pounds of "static set of FABRICATED ITEMS" as long as we don't interface with our bagged robot? Additionally, what does the word "static" mean in this case?
2014-02-19 by FRC4951
A. 1) Yes. 2) In the context of R18, "static" means "fixed" such that the set of parts withheld per R18 doesn't change between now and the end of the first Event (i.e. you can't withhold an arm assembly now and then swap it out for an intake assembly during a Robot Access Period). The set may be different for each Event (at the end of your first Event you could withhold the intake assembly and bag the arm assembly), including any associated Robot Access Periods.

Some food for thought. I think I'm even more confused by their definition of static in this case.

[notmattlythgoe]

FRC Q&A 396:

https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/396/some-clarification-is-needed-about-rules-r15-r18-between-feb-19-and-our-first-competition-can-we-continue-to-build-develop-using-our-45-pounds-of-static-set-of-fabricated-items-as-long-as-we-do



Some food for thought. I think I'm even more confused by their definition of static in this case.

Me too >.<

[cgmv123]

Some food for thought. I think I'm even more confused by their definition of static in this case.

All that they're saying is that the Robot Access Period is considered part of your event; since the period is intended to replace the first day of competition at 2-day events. Once you decide what your withholding allowance is for the event during the Robot Access period, you can't change it.

This is to keep teams with 2-day events from having an advantage by being able to add 45 lbs to the bag during their access period and bringing another 45 lbs to competition, giving them an effective 90 lbs of withholding.

[Anupam Goli]

So from what I'm gathering, according to the definition of "static", it's okay to have in mind what you need to pull from your practice bot by the event, but you can't decide to pull your arm beforehand, but then pull your intake during the middle of competition? Or is it just saying that the Robot Access period is a disjointed part of the event, and for teams going to a district competition, the withheld set of items can't change between the access period and the friday of competition?

[cgmv123]

So from what I'm gathering, according to the definition of "static", it's okay to have in mind what you need to pull from your practice bot by the event, but you can't decide to pull your arm beforehand, but then pull your intake during the middle of competition? Or is it just saying that the Robot Access period is a disjointed part of the event, and for teams going to a district competition, the withheld set of items can't change between the access period and the friday of competition?

The latter.

[Oblarg]

Again, the fact that they're mentioning "a set of withheld parts that cannot change during a competition" seems to clearly imply that you must know before the competition which parts are in that set. If you bring a whole practice bot, and only happen to take off 45lbs of parts but could not have, if asked, said what those parts would be at the outset, then you clearly weren't working with a "set of withheld parts" that weighed under 45lbs at the outset.

[Wayne Doenges]

Q. Can we bring an old robot to the competition for the purposes of using it to supplement our Chairman's Award presentation and not have the weight count against our team's 45 lb withholding allowance?
Follow FRC0340 on 2014-02-25 | 1 Followers
A. These items would count towards the 45 lb limit in R18.
I think this pretty much solves the problem.
If the GDC counts a old robot against the 45 pound with holding, they would consider a new robot the same way.
So now lets stop :deadhorse: and go play Aerial Assist :D

[Andrew Schreiber]

Q. Can we bring an old robot to the competition for the purposes of using it to supplement our Chairman's Award presentation and not have the weight count against our team's 45 lb withholding allowance?
Follow FRC0340 on 2014-02-25 | 1 Followers
A. These items would count towards the 45 lb limit in R18.
I think this pretty much solves the problem.
If the GDC counts a old robot against the 45 pound with holding, they would consider a new robot the same way.
So now lets stop :deadhorse: and go play Aerial Assist :D

Sure, can I just say that the GDC needs to pull it's collective head out of a certain part of their anatomy? That's possibly the second stupidest ruling I've seen recently from them (the dumbest being batteries counting against withholding which they did resolve).

By this logic any robot built for demo purposes that a host team may want to have outside to interact with students would count against their weight. What if for part of my RCA I want to bring my FTC team's robot for display in my pit?

[Electronica1]

Sure, can I just say that the GDC needs to pull it's collective head out of a certain part of their anatomy? That's possibly the second stupidest ruling I've seen recently from them (the dumbest being batteries counting against withholding which they did resolve).

By this logic any robot built for demo purposes that a host team may want to have outside to interact with students would count against their weight. What if for part of my RCA I want to bring my FTC team's robot for display in my pit?

I guess no t-shirt cannon robots allowed at competition anymore...

[Anupam Goli]

Sure, can I just say that the GDC needs to pull it's collective head out of a certain part of their anatomy? That's possibly the second stupidest ruling I've seen recently from them (the dumbest being batteries counting against withholding which they did resolve).

By this logic any robot built for demo purposes that a host team may want to have outside to interact with students would count against their weight. What if for part of my RCA I want to bring my FTC team's robot for display in my pit?

Not to mention, this ruling makes it illegal for any team to bring a t-shirt cannon or demo bot to parade during the break time before elims or awards.

[Matt_Boehm_329]

Not to mention, this ruling makes it illegal for any team to bring a t-shirt cannon or demo bot to parade during the break time before elims or awards.

But doesn't that make sense? If everyone could bring 3 robots, one for demo, one for t-shirts and one for the competition, wouldn't that become a space and then safety issue? How would we decide who gets to shoot t-shirts and when? Can everyone parade? I would think that if you get the event's permission beforehand and don't use the robot for competition related reasons (or award related reasons) you should be fine.

Edit: As for the ruling on the robot being used to supplement their chairman's video, I think that makes sense IF you define awards as part of the competition.

[neshera]

Wait, you mean like I could do if I merely had a list of parts off my practice bot that was sitting in the trailer?

Hmm...

Yeah, that actually sounds pretty reasonable to me.
Also sounds reasonable if the parts listed are on your practice bot in your nearby shop/lab, or sitting on the shelf in your nearby shop/lab. I don't even think the list needs to be written down - just commit yourself to using only those fabricated parts.
You've defined a set of fabricated parts (presumably less than 45 pounds total weight) that is static (i.e. on your list)) to which you have access at the event. In a sense, the rest of the practice bot is just a "carrier" for the listed fabricated parts (and for any COTS parts on the practice bot too, in my opinion).

[notmattlythgoe]

Yeah, that actually sounds pretty reasonable to me.
Also sounds reasonable if the parts listed are on your practice bot in your nearby shop/lab, or sitting on the shelf in your nearby shop/lab. I don't even think the list needs to be written down - just commit yourself to using only those fabricated parts.
You've defined a set of fabricated parts (presumably less than 45 pounds total weight) that is static (i.e. on your list)) to which you have access at the event. In a sense, the rest of the practice bot is just a "carrier" for the listed fabricated parts (and for any COTS parts on the practice bot too, in my opinion).

I agree with this. This meets, what in my opinion is, the intent of the rule.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Yeah, that actually sounds pretty reasonable to me.
Also sounds reasonable if the parts listed are on your practice bot in your nearby shop/lab, or sitting on the shelf in your nearby shop/lab. I don't even think the list needs to be written down - just commit yourself to using only those fabricated parts.
You've defined a set of fabricated parts (presumably less than 45 pounds total weight) that is static (i.e. on your list)) to which you have access at the event. In a sense, the rest of the practice bot is just a "carrier" for the listed fabricated parts (and for any COTS parts on the practice bot too, in my opinion).

Which is what I felt should have been the logic to begin with. :P


Buuuut, under this logic I can bring my demo bot with 0 parts "listed" and it shouldn't count? I can use it to shoot poof balls at young kids and get them interested in robots? A use, I might add, entirely within the goals of FIRST above and beyond the competition.

(Again, devil's advocate)

[Racer26]

That's possibly the second stupidest ruling I've seen recently from them (the dumbest being batteries counting against withholding which they did resolve).


It doesn't even make sense that an old ROBOT for a Chairman's Presentation (or any other reason, for that matter) should count against the 45lbs in R18, because it doesn't meet the definition of ROBOT in the glossary, which specifically requires that it be clearly designed to play Aerial Assist.

For the purposes of the 2014 rulebook, an Ultimate Ascent robot, or Rebound Rumble robot, or Logomotion robot, or Breakaway robot is not a ROBOT.

[Richard Wallace]

For the purposes of the 2014 rulebook, an Ultimate Ascent robot, or Rebound Rumble robot, or Logomotion robot, or Breakaway robot is not a ROBOT.
You're right, it is not a ROBOT. It is a FABRICATED ITEM.

[Taylor]

This is my favorite thread since this one (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89768) and this other one (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40736).

[bduddy]

I actually wouldn't mind if the GDC required or strongly encourage teams to, in future years' games, provide a list of all of the parts in their allowance. I mean, it's good practice anyway to have one...

[Qbot2640]

I am going to risk an onslaught of abuse here...but I want to propose that this is not a "gray area" rule at all, and the only "gray area" in play is each team's degree of compliance.

Static Set of 45 lbs: This can't be an "as you pull it" or a list...this is what you carry into the event with you...and nothing else (fabricated) comes in. Identical copies of parts count...anything assembled counts in its entirety...a COTS wheel with a COTS pulley attached is now a fabricated assembly and counts. A practice robot that weighs 46 pounds violates the rule if it is brought in - even if you only take one COTS screw off for use. A practice robot that weighs 46 pounds and is left outside violates two rules...this one, and the one citing where you can work.

Practice Robot in the Parking Lot: If it weighs less than 45 lbs (when added to any other items you withheld from bagging) you should have brought it into the pit area where you're allowed to work on it...otherwise it is an illegal assembly that you should have left in your shop. If it has 10 talons on it that you need, it is unfortunate that you did not remove them and bring them in with you...now you have to have one next-day aired from Andymark, borrow one from spare parts or from another team.

Can we avoid "lawyering" the rules here and take what is written at face value? Please stop forcing FIRST to make the rules more and more complex by pushing the limits of interpretation. Demonstrate by model our attempt to go above and beyond to comply to the rules...bring your withholding allowance in to the event, work on your items in the pit, and leave the spare robots (from whatever year they were made) in your shop. If you have some spare COTS items, like Talons or wheels or pulleys...pull them off your practice robot and bring them along.

[Chris is me]

Sure, can I just say that the GDC needs to pull it's collective head out of a certain part of their anatomy? That's possibly the second stupidest ruling I've seen recently from them (the dumbest being batteries counting against withholding which they did resolve).

By this logic any robot built for demo purposes that a host team may want to have outside to interact with students would count against their weight. What if for part of my RCA I want to bring my FTC team's robot for display in my pit?

This is kind of an aside, but I just want to emphasize how asinine this ruling is. According to the GDC, even if a robot does not meet the Manual definition of "robot" (specifically, designed to play Aerial Assist), you can't bring it. Numerous events have had teams bring old robots for the purposes of display, interacting with the public, whatever. A strict interpretation of this rule restricts even *non-FRC robots* from entering events. If this was enforced do they have any idea how much impact this would have on events? On the ability of the regional and teams to interact with the public?

I know at the Boston Regional last year, 125's old robots were on display and operating around the perimeter of the dome. At every WPI regional there are various WPI robots on display at the venue entrance. So many events have FTC demonstrations that are now illegal to do if one of those FTC robots is affiliated with an FRC team. This is incredibly shortsighted.

[thefro526]

Can we avoid "lawyering" the rules here and take what is written at face value? Please stop forcing FIRST to make the rules more and more complex by pushing the limits of interpretation. Demonstrate by model our attempt to go above and beyond to comply to the rules...bring your withholding allowance in to the event, work on your items in the pit, and leave the spare robots (from whatever year they were made) in your shop. If you have some spare COTS items, like Talons or wheels or pulleys...pull them off your practice robot and bring them along.

You bring up a lot of strong points in your post without a doubt, but I just want to talk on the other side of some of them for a moment, just to illustrate how poorly thought out and written some of the rules are as is.

Lawyering the rules, in my experience, usually stems from a rule set that is either too (or very) restrictive, and/or poorly written. If the rules were written more simply, rather than made complicated, I think the instances of lawyering would decrease significantly.

Take your wheel and pulley example - why is a wheel, with a pulley attached a 'fabricated component' or custom assembly - if all of the parts that it is made of COTS? Who really benefits from a restriction like this? Take my team for example, we wear through a set of (8) wheels once per event, and thankfully this year, we have enough extra parts floating around to be able to make an entire 'spare set' prepped with the gears, sprockets, etc required to swap a wheel. We're well enough within the withholding allowance that doing this doesn't bring us close to the 45lb limit, but if we were, we'd be forced to break all of these wheel assemblies down into their COTS base parts, specifically wheels, sprockets, screws, bearings and gears, and reassemble them on the Day Zero/Practice day of our event. In our specific instance, we're fortunate enough to have more than enough kids to do tasks like this without it being an issue, but not every team is like us. Who really gets hurt here? The teams that are well off, or those who are not?

Here's another way to look at this whole scenario: If I were to organize my spare parts in such a way, that they're essentially one unit for the purpose of bringing them in the door, and storing them in the pit, am I in violation of the rules? Say I took a piece of plywood, drilled a bunch of holes in it, ziptied 10 Speed Controllers, a cRio, a DSC, a PDB, and a bunch of motors to it, do they all become part of a fabricated assembly? Some would argue yes, because technically, they are treated as an assembly, but in reality, I never intend to use them as such... This is significantly different in implementation than bringing a practice bot to an event, but the purpose of the two items is essentially the same.

I guess the TLDR here is that it would be nice if FIRST either relaxed the rules regarding spare parts, or was more specific in how the withholding allowance is to be used. I can't get comfortable with the idea of not being allowed to build spare parts, or spare sub-assemblies, since that either limits how things can be made, and rewards teams that rely heavily on COTS solutions, or forces me to make sure that everything built is capable of withstanding an entire season's worth of abuse....

[techtiger1]

Can we stop lawyering the rules please. Do not bring more than 45 lbs of prefabricated items into the venue means exactly what it says. I think its that simple. Now there are many different ways to interpret it but that is not the participants job, their job is to follow the rules simply as written.

[Mark Sheridan]

Can we stop lawyering the rules please. Do not bring more than 45 lbs of prefabricated items into the venue means exactly what it says. I think its that simple. Now there are many different ways to interpret it but that is not the participants job, their job is to follow the rules simply as written.

There is not much lawyering going on here. Its more like complaining. I don't like these rules but I have understood since kickoff. That does not change the rule nor does my complaining affect my teams compliance with the rule. We made some extra fab parts during the season and bag them with the robot. we probably wont even need the original 30 pound limit.

What concerns me most, is that if you want to borrow one of my assembled versa gearboxes, I will have to dismantle it before I give it to you. If you have a wheel with riveted tread that can replace one of my broken wheels, I cannot accept it as a replacement even if you remove the tread and rivets. Its unfortunate but that's the reality of the rules. And yes there is no gray area. team cannot share fabricated items outside of the original withholding allowance.

[Jaxom]

Take your wheel and pulley example - why is a wheel, with a pulley attached a 'fabricated component' or custom assembly - if all of the parts that it is made of COTS? Who really benefits from a restriction like this?

It depends. If you bought the wheel/pulley combination, already assembled, from Wheels R Us, then it's a COTS item. If you bought the wheel from Wheels R Us, and the pulley from Pulleys R Us, then it's a FABRICATED ITEM (the definition of which includes "constructed", "manufactured", and "produced"). Like it or not, silly or not, that's what the rules say.

Say I took a piece of plywood, drilled a bunch of holes in it, ziptied 10 Speed Controllers, a cRio, a DSC, a PDB, and a bunch of motors to it, do they all become part of a fabricated assembly?

I'm going to say "no", with an evil grin. :D Since the bumper rules (somewhat) clearly define fasteners -- and say that "tie wraps" (which I'll translate to "zip tie") are not allowed to attach bumpers to the robot -- the whole thing isn't a FABRICATED ITEM. The plywood is, though -- you drilled holes.

Note that my tongue is firmly in my cheek on this, but wouldn't it be simpler to just put the parts in some kind of container? You may need the zip ties to make repairs on your ROBOT.

[pyroslev]

Based on the responses here, it sounds like it's more sporting to do the harvesting at home. We'll do that for our next regional.
Glad you made the right call.

Everyone else,
Forgetting the Robot and Tournament rules for a moment, keep this in mind:

Judges, volunteers and other persons involved in every regional read these threads. Key staff are asked to keep an eye open for actions and behaviour to share with the judges. This is usually in reference to great things and acts of kindness by a team to help another.
Bringing the entire robot and keeping it within a mile so you can use parts off of it, or practice at the hotel falls into the other category of something a volunteer would report to judges. In deliberations, such a piece of information can act as the losing coin toss that will swing an award to a teams that merely brought their allowed withholding rather than their whole practice robot. Such an award could be one that would qualify a team to go to St. Louis.

[Nirvash]

Just adding my 2 cents to this, the way I would read the rule is that the 45 pounds you bring into the venue must not change.
Meaning that, a team brings 30 pounds of assembly 'X' on thursday into the venue, then on friday they bring 10 more pounds of assemblies 'Y', they have now used a total of 40 pounds of their withholding allowance.
On saturday they realized they need another 10 pound assembly 'Z', they can not bring this in as is, even if they remove assemblies X and Y from the venue.

[Tristan Lall]

This is kind of an aside, but I just want to emphasize how asinine this ruling is. According to the GDC, even if a robot does not meet the Manual definition of "robot" (specifically, designed to play Aerial Assist), you can't bring it. Numerous events have had teams bring old robots for the purposes of display, interacting with the public, whatever. A strict interpretation of this rule restricts even *non-FRC robots* from entering events. If this was enforced do they have any idea how much impact this would have on events? On the ability of the regional and teams to interact with the public?
I would interpret that Q&A to mean if your pre-2013 robot meets the definition of a robot in 2014, then it's subject to the 2014 robot rules. (Unlikely, and in all but the most unusual cases, inherently illegal due to parts usage rules.) If it meets the definition of a fabricated part, and you wish to be able to use any part of it in the 2014 competition, it must meet those rules as well (part of the static 45 lb). That's uncontroversial.

If it's just a prop for your presentation, it's exactly like any other thing you made to impress the judges. You don't have to count your scrapbook as part of the 45 lb, because you're not going to use it on the field or otherwise incorporate it into the 2014 robot. Same thing here.

(This is based on the principle that the Q&A can't create a situation that isn't supported by the rules. The robot rules, from which the 45 lb is derived, don't apply to props you fabricated, tools you made, food you prepared, etc..)

[thefro526]

It depends. If you bought the wheel/pulley combination, already assembled, from Wheels R Us, then it's a COTS item. If you bought the wheel from Wheels R Us, and the pulley from Pulleys R Us, then it's a FABRICATED ITEM (the definition of which includes "constructed", "manufactured", and "produced"). Like it or not, silly or not, that's what the rules say.

You're absolutely right, that is what the rules say, I'm just illustrating some of the more frustrating bits of them.

Your expansion on the wheel and pulley example actually makes me think of another interesting COTS part case... We bought transmissions from a COTS vendor this year, as did many other teams. The transmissions came with all of the parts required to complete the transmission, including a pneumatic cylinder, motors, pinions, etc - but we were required to assemble the transmission.

Now, is the assembled transmission still considered a COTS item, since it was bought with all of these parts as a complete unit, although the vendor does not assemble the transmission? Does the assembly of the transmission make it a fabricated component?


I'm going to say "no", with an evil grin. :D Since the bumper rules (somewhat) clearly define fasteners -- and say that "tie wraps" (which I'll translate to "zip tie") are not allowed to attach bumpers to the robot -- the whole thing isn't a FABRICATED ITEM. The plywood is, though -- you drilled holes.

Note that my tongue is firmly in my cheek on this, but wouldn't it be simpler to just put the parts in some kind of container? You may need the zip ties to make repairs on your ROBOT.

I see what you did here... I guess I was trying to illustrate a different way to view the fabricated parts rules, but may have been stretching things a bit. The TLDR with this point is basically that if a practice robot is being used as a storage 'thing' for a series of COTS parts, is it any different than having them in a tote/box/etc? Not really, or at least I don't think so.... Thankfully, we keep our parts in boxes and bins, since they're significantly easier to move around... :D

[tim-tim]

...
Now, is the assembled transmission still considered a COTS item, since it was bought with all of these parts as a complete unit, although the vendor does not assemble the transmission? Does the assembly of the transmission make it a fabricated component?
...

Dustin, here is your answer (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/257/do-vexpro-3-cim-ball-shifter-gearboxes-that-our-team-purchased-and-assembled-count-toward-the-30-pound-limit-for-fabricated-items-as-detailed-by-r18).

[neshera]

Q416.
Q. Can we bring an old robot to the competition for the purposes of using it to supplement our Chairman's Award presentation and not have the weight count against our team's 45 lb withholding allowance?
FRC0340 on 2014-02-25 | 1 Followers
A. These items would count towards the 45 lb limit in R18.

A few years ago, in Atlanta, the Killer Bees (FIRST TEAM 33) plastered much of the Georgia Dome with little black and yellow bee antennae. These were clearly fabricated. Were they supposed to have weighed those and count them as part of their 30 lbs. of fabricated materials? How about signs? Mascot costumes?

The reply from the Q&A regarding bringing in a demo/old bot just to present to Chairman's is therefore illogical to me too. (And, as Chris and Andrew have stated, not really in the "spirit of FIRST".) Did they really think they couldn't trust the team to not cannibalize the demo bot for their competition bot? If that was their concern, why not just tell the team not to do so, i.e. that the demo bot can only be used for demonstration purposes, and nothing (not one bolt, not one zip tie)from that demo bot can end up on the playing field.

[sanddrag]

I've read this whole thread. What nobody has mentioned yet is that this whole thread is just more reinforcement for the idea that bagging is almost pointless and should just go away. Basically, to be both competitive and legal, you have to have a practice robot AND a separate set of spares. For many items this year, that's actually what we did. That gets expensive fast. We can't afford to sustain this kind of expense every year.

Do away with practice bots, either by specifically disallowing them or by ditching the bag. Problems solved. The build season hasn't truly been 6 weeks since over half a decade ago.

[Tristan Lall]

I've read this whole thread. What nobody has mentioned yet is that this whole thread is just more reinforcement for the idea that bagging is almost pointless and should just go away. Basically, to be both competitive and legal, you have to have a practice robot AND a separate set of spares. For many items this year, that's actually what we did. That gets expensive fast. We can't afford to sustain this kind of expense every year.

Do away with practice bots, either by specifically disallowing them or by ditching the bag. Problems solved. The build season hasn't truly been 6 weeks since over half a decade ago.
We ought to have a thread to discuss the details of those two options (compared to the status quo). Putting together an effective rule to ban practice robots would be a challenging exercise in balancing a lot of competing interests. By the same token, if they eliminate the bag, should FIRST impose any limits on fabrication and modification past the end of the 6 weeks—and if so, how and why?

[martin417]

At the risk of re-igniting a fire that was dying out, I have an observation. At GTR East, one team's robot was stuck in transit and didn't make it to the event. Another team graciously donated an entire kit-bot chassis. They and other teams donated enough parts to make a pretty good robot for the team with a missing bot.

Where did the generous team get that kit-bot chassis? was it brought into the venue in un-assembled form? Did they run back to the shop or trailer and pick it up? was it counted as part (most) of their 45 pound allowance? What about all the other items that were donated?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone should be penalized for helping out, and I don't think any of whatever happened should be against the rules. I am just putting it out there as food for thought.

Flame on.

[Michael Hill]

At the risk of re-igniting a fire that was dying out, I have an observation. At GTR East, one team's robot was stuck in transit and didn't make it to the event. Another team graciously donated an entire kit-bot chassis. They and other teams donated enough parts to make a pretty good robot for the team with a missing bot.

Where did the generous team get that kit-bot chassis? was it brought into the venue in un-assembled form? Did they run back to the shop or trailer and pick it up? was it counted as part (most) of their 45 pound allowance? What about all the other items that were donated?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone should be penalized for helping out, and I don't think any of whatever happened should be against the rules. I am just putting it out there as food for thought.

Flame on.

In that kind of situation, I assume it would be a local team that had the kitbot chassis at their shop. I would also guess that they asked the LRI if they could do it, and they allowed it. One of the primary goals of inspectors is to make sure all teams get out on the field. If that's the case, the LRI (who has the final say in that situation) may have allowed it.

[martin417]

In that kind of situation, I assume it would be a local team that had the kitbot chassis at their shop. I would also guess that they asked the LRI if they could do it, and they allowed it. One of the primary goals of inspectors is to make sure all teams get out on the field. If that's the case, the LRI (who has the final say in that situation) may have allowed it.

So you are saying that the LRI has the authority to waive the rules? I didn't realize that. I thought the LRI was there to enforce the rules.

[GearsOfFury]

So you are saying that the LRI has the authority to waive the rules? I didn't realize that. I thought the LRI was there to enforce the rules.

The LRI often (always?) has the hotline back to HQ and can consult with them on these issues. The LRI may also make judgment calls when a situation is not black and white. HQ and event officials can make exceptions to rules for exceptional cases... and they seem to do so only if in the pursuit of inspiration. The information provided in this case is incomplete so how can we judge?

[Michael Hill]

So you are saying that the LRI has the authority to waive the rules? I didn't realize that. I thought the LRI was there to enforce the rules.

If a team comes up to them and says their robot didn't make it to the competition, and another team wants to help out in that manner, then the LRIs will do anything in their power to get them out on the field. Is it strict by the rules? No. Is it in the spirit of FIRST? Absolutely. That's why most people are willing to turn a blind eye in this situation.

[nixiebunny]

I'd like to wrap up my part of this thread, being the OP and all that.

First, I had no idea that the presence of a practice bot in the vicinity of a regional was such a problem. I personally had/have no desire to take fabricated parts of that robot for use in competition. I also would not allow any member of my team to do so. My reason is that it's not fair to the other teams.

For instance, we had a functioning winch shaft on the practice bot, but I fabricated a new one for the real bot in the pits. Then it failed, so I had the NASA machine shop fabricate another using a used piece of shaft that we had brought into the pits with us as part of our 45 lbs. of "stuff". Thank you, NASA!

Also, if any other team lost a robot due to transportation issues, I'd be happy to supply our practice bot to them, whether or not they are playing against our team. That's what FIRST is about.

Have fun!

[Steve W]

From what I have heard another teams robot (not practice) who was not competing was offered. FIRST responded that even though extremely gracious it would not be allowed. I have no knowledge if kitbot was assembled.

[Tem1514 Mentor]

From what I have heard another teams robot (not practice) who was not competing was offered. FIRST responded that even though extremely gracious it would not be allowed. I have no knowledge if kitbot was assembled.

And Steve that would be team 2935 that would have allowed the team to use !

[I_AM_Clayton]

(unless your practice bot is under 45 pounds).

#cardboardFRCrobots
#woodFRCrobots

Which team is the one that makes wood robots every year? I can't seem find them

[jkelleyrtp]

Such a necro bump man...

[David Brinza]

Yes, this was quite the hot issue in 2014.

In 2015, teams were required to bring their withholding allowance items into the pits during robot load-in. Going to the trailer or build site after load-in was not permitted. Robot inspectors would ask teams with a significant amount of fabricated items declared as "withhold allowance" to weigh them at the inspection station. A lot of teams fabricated new items using COTS parts and raw materials in the pits or sanctioned on-site machine shops - all completely within the rules.

I suspect the rules will be similar in 2016, as it removes the ambiguity of what items are declared as withholding allowance.

Read the robot rules carefully and plan ahead!!

[Doc Wu]

I suspect the rules will be similar in 2016, as it removes the ambiguity of what items are declared as withholding allowance.

I suspect, that if word gets back to the GDC about this hot topic, the rules might get tighter!

[evanperryg]

This thread is the greatest clickbait thread I have ever seen.

[Stayskull]

#cardboardFRCrobots
#woodFRCrobots

Which team is the one that makes wood robots every year? I can't seem find them

Team 1899 makes wood robots every year, I don't know if this is the team that you're referring.

[orangemoore]

Team 1899 makes wood robots every year, I don't know if this is the team that you're referring.

4183 as well

[GeeTwo]

(Emphasis mine)
In 2015, teams were required to bring their withholding allowance items into the pits during robot load-in. Going to the trailer or build site after load-in was not permitted. Robot inspectors would ask teams with a significant amount of fabricated items declared as "withhold allowance" to weigh them at the inspection station.

Where was that, exactly? I've re-read the 2015 rules with specific emphasis on R12-R17 (Fabrication Schedule and Material Utilization),and T12 (during the event). Neither the word trailer nor the phrase build site appear anywhere in the game manual. I can't find any rules prohibiting access to a trailer or build site for the purposes of (for example) getting COTS parts, tools, non-robot items (such as costumes, buttons, and office supplies) , or excepted assemblies at the end of R17. The key rules regarding fabricated items at the tournament were:

At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS, not bagged per R14, known as the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE, that shall not exceed 30 lbs. to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT. The WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE may only be brought into the Venue when the Team initially loads in at the Event. Items made at an Event do not count towards this weight limit.
For Teams attending 2-Day Events, these FABRICATED ITEMS may be used during the Robot Access Period and/or brought to the Event, but the total weight may not exceed 30 lbs. FABRICATED ITEMS constructed during the Robot Access Period and bagged with the ROBOT are exempt from this limit.
Items exempt from this limit are:

A. the OPERATOR CONSOLE,
B. any ROBOT battery assemblies (as described in R4).

During the event, from load-in on the first day to load-out on the final day, Teams may only produce FABRICATED ITEMS in the pit areas or provided machine shops, as defined in the Administrative Manual, Section 4.8: The Pit, and per R17 in Section 4.6: Material Utilization.

Bottom line: During an event, you may not fabricate items for use on the robot except at the designated locations and times within the venue, nor bring fabricated items for use on the robot into the venue except at check-in, either in the robot bag or the withholding allowance.

An interesting subtlety I noticed on this search is that while "FABRICATED items consisting of one COTS electrical device (e.g. a motor or motor controller), connectors, and any materials used to secure and insulate those connectors" created before build season were permitted on the robot (or in the withholding) under R12, they were not exempt from being part of the withholding allowance under R17.

[David Brinza]

Originally Posted by David Brinza:
In 2015, teams were required to bring their withholding allowance items into the pits during robot load-in. Going to the trailer or build site after load-in was not permitted. Robot inspectors would ask teams with a significant amount of fabricated items declared as "withhold allowance" to weigh them at the inspection station.

(Emphasis mine)


Where was that, exactly? I've re-read the 2015 rules with specific emphasis on R12-R17 (Fabrication Schedule and Material Utilization),and T12 (during the event). Neither the word trailer nor the phrase build site appear anywhere in the game manual. I can't find any rules prohibiting access to a trailer or build site for the purposes of (for example) getting COTS parts, tools, non-robot items (such as costumes, buttons, and office supplies) , or excepted assemblies at the end of R17. The key rules regarding fabricated items at the tournament were:




Bottom line: During an event, you may not fabricate items for use on the robot except at the designated locations and times within the venue, nor bring fabricated items for use on the robot into the venue except at check-in, either in the robot bag or the withholding allowance.

An interesting subtlety I noticed on this search is that while "FABRICATED items consisting of one COTS electrical device (e.g. a motor or motor controller), connectors, and any materials used to secure and insulate those connectors" created before build season were permitted on the robot (or in the withholding) under R12, they were not exempt from being part of the withholding allowance under R17.

Sorry for not being more specific in my comment about not going to the trailer after load-in. Teams were not allowed to bring in FABRICATED items from a trailer (or other off-site location) after load-in. Teams can retrieve COTS items, raw materials, driver's stations, tools, etc. from outside the pits (i.e. trailer) at any time during the competition.

[martin417]

#cardboardFRCrobots
#woodFRCrobots

Which team is the one that makes wood robots every year? I can't seem find them

1771 made wood robot from 2009 through 2012. Here is post I made at that time about wood frames.