2014 Waterloo Regional [Archive]

Gregor

10-03-2014, 19:02

This may be a little early, but since no teams registered for Waterloo are competing at a week 3 event, we already know everything we're going to know about the Waterloo teams.

254-Central Valley Winners
771
781-GTRE Chairman's Award Winners
865
1114
1241-GTRW Chairman's Award Winners
1285-GTRE Winners
1305
1334
2056
2609
2702
3161-GTRE Engineering Inspiration Winners
3683
3756
4039
4069
4519
4525
4678
4732
4777
4907
4917
4943
4992
5032
5033
5039

What's interesting is that neither 1114 nor 2056 will create a wildcard if they win, due to 1114's semifinal exit at GTRE, and the fact that this is 2056's first regional. There's a very high chance that 1114 or 2056 (or both) will actually earn a wildcard at this regional, seeing the amount of other top tier robots that already can create wildcards.

I expect everyone from the finalist alliance to qualify for champs, just like last year.

Expect another insane Waterloo regional. I just mentioned the very top tier.

joelg236

10-03-2014, 19:18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQqwG_rQx7A

Agentarrow

10-03-2014, 20:12

I'm making the nearly 4 hour drive out to Waterloo to visit this regional, and I may or may not be bringing an alumnus of team 67 with me. Of the events outside of Michigan that I have visited, this is one of my favorites. I'm really looking forward to an awesome event.

Jonathan Norris

10-03-2014, 20:24

Gregor, of the teams you didn't mention, both 1334 and 4039 had some of the best robots in the WORLD last year, both incredibly talented teams. 3683 was selected first by 1114 at GTRE, 865 was a defensive beast at GTRW, 2609 and 2702 both have been good teams for years, and two of our awesome chairman's award winning teams in 771 and 1305. The alliances that are going to be created at this small regional are almost going to be of Championship quality. I'm sad i'll be missing Waterloo this year, looks like its going to be a blast.

Racer26

10-03-2014, 22:22

What else do we know?

3161 is the oldest team in attendance without a blue banner.

Blue Banners in Attendance:

1x 25-time Regional Winner (254) [16 since 2005]
1x 22-time Regional Winner (1114) [21 since 2005]
1x 17-time Regional Winner (2056)
1x 3-time Regional Winner (781) [2 since 2005]
3x 2-time Regional Winner (771, 865, 1305) [865 only has 1 since 2005]
7x 1-time Regional Winner (1241, 1285, 1334, 2609, 2702, 3756, 4069)
1x 4-time Championship Division Winner (254) [3 since 2005]
1x 3-time Championship Division Winner (1114)
1x 2-time Championship Division Winner (2056)
2x 1-time Championship Division Winner (781, 1241)
3x 1-time Championship Winner (254, 1114, 1241)
2x Championship Chairman's Award Winner (254, 1114) [254 was in 2004]
1x 6-time RCA Winner (1114)
1x 4-time RCA Winner (1305)
2x 3-time RCA Winner (771, 1241)
2x 2-time RCA Winner (254, 781) [0 for 254 since 2005]
1x 1-time RCA Winner (2056)

A total 117 Blue Banners, at a 30 team regional (101 since 2005).
Waterloo's BBQ (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=773426&postcount=27) = 3.9
Waterloo's SAUCE = 3.3667

Yipyapper

10-03-2014, 22:37

What else do we know?

3161 is the oldest team in attendance without a blue banner.

Blue Banners in Attendance:

1x 25-time Regional Winner (254) [16 since 2005]
1x 22-time Regional Winner (1114) [21 since 2005]
1x 17-time Regional Winner (2056)
1x 3-time Regional Winner (781) [2 since 2005]
3x 2-time Regional Winner (771, 865, 1305) [865 only has 1 since 2005]
7x 1-time Regional Winner (1241, 1285, 1334, 2609, 2702, 3756, 4069)
1x 4-time Championship Division Winner (254) [3 since 2005]
1x 2-time Championship Division Winner (2056)
2x 1-time Championship Division Winner (781, 1241)
3x 1-time Championship Winner (254, 1114, 1241)
2x Championship Chairman's Award Winner (254, 1114) [254 was in 2004]
1x 6-time RCA Winner (1114)
1x 4-time RCA Winner (1305)
2x 3-time RCA Winner (771, 1241)
2x 2-time RCA Winner (254, 781) [0 for 254 since 2005]
1x 1-time RCA Winner (2056)

A total 114 Blue Banners, at a 30 team regional (98 since 2005).
Waterloo's BBQ (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=773426&postcount=27) = 3.8
Waterloo's SAUCE = 3.2667

Those two would sound cooler if you said "since 2011" :p

Great stats.

Racer26

10-03-2014, 22:42

For what it's worth: I think this is the highest BBQ/SAUCE any event has ever had, primarily thanks to 254 bringing their collection to join 1114 and 2056's.

In all the BBQ/SAUCE threads in the past, I haven't noticed any BBQs >= 2.

Sebastian V

10-03-2014, 23:48

865 was a defensive beast at GTRW.

Well, when we had a robot running (Silly RSL light!) :rolleyes:
Thanks for the compliment! :)

Jash_J

10-03-2014, 23:51

What else do we know?

3161 is the oldest team in attendance without a blue banner.

Blue Banners in Attendance:

1x 25-time Regional Winner (254) [16 since 2005]
1x 22-time Regional Winner (1114) [21 since 2005]
1x 17-time Regional Winner (2056)
1x 3-time Regional Winner (781) [2 since 2005]
3x 2-time Regional Winner (771, 865, 1305) [865 only has 1 since 2005]
7x 1-time Regional Winner (1241, 1285, 1334, 2609, 2702, 3756, 4069)
1x 4-time Championship Division Winner (254) [3 since 2005]
1x 2-time Championship Division Winner (2056)
2x 1-time Championship Division Winner (781, 1241)
3x 1-time Championship Winner (254, 1114, 1241)
2x Championship Chairman's Award Winner (254, 1114) [254 was in 2004]
1x 6-time RCA Winner (1114)
1x 4-time RCA Winner (1305)
2x 3-time RCA Winner (771, 1241)
2x 2-time RCA Winner (254, 781) [0 for 254 since 2005]
1x 1-time RCA Winner (2056)

A total 114 Blue Banners, at a 30 team regional (98 since 2005).
Waterloo's BBQ (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=773426&postcount=27) = 3.8
Waterloo's SAUCE = 3.2667

Just a small correction, which I am sure you already know but just forgot to mention. 1114 Has won their championship division a total of 3 times ('08, '10, '12). I guess they are due in 2014 then huh? :D

JohnSchneider

11-03-2014, 02:16

Waterloo's BBQ (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=773426&postcount=27) = 3.8
Waterloo's SAUCE = 3.2667

I wish everyone would give BBQ analysis when they post things like this.

Racer26

11-03-2014, 08:19

Just a small correction, which I am sure you already know but just forgot to mention. 1114 Has won their championship division a total of 3 times ('08, '10, '12). I guess they are due in 2014 then huh? :D

Huh. It seems I did miss that. I wrote that post three times due to accidentally leaving the page while collecting the stats. One second while I fix it.

Jared Russell

11-03-2014, 10:58

A total 117 Blue Banners, at a 30 team regional (101 since 2005).
Waterloo's BBQ (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=773426&postcount=27) = 3.9
Waterloo's SAUCE = 3.3667

With this much BBQ/SAUCE, teams better bring their A-game

Here on Team 254, we have developed the Basic Robot Information, Strengths, and Kryptonite Evaluation Toolkit (BRISKET) to help scout a robot's capabilities and exploitable weaknesses among this distinguished field of teams. Because quantitative metrics aren't the be-all and end-all this year, we also utilize Polled Pool Of Robot Kids (Polled PORK) to combine all of our scouts' qualitative observations after all of the matches are finished.

As we all know, at the end of the day you need to come up with the strongest possible pick list in order to pull out the "W". This is where we turn to our patent-pending Typecasted Robots we Intend To Immediately Pick (TRITIP) list, where each class of robot is stack-ranked against all the others at the competition.

We firmly believe that our BRISKET, Polled PORK, and TRITIP will form an unbeatable combination. Top that all off with the awesome BBQ/SAUCE at this event, and I think we have the recipe for something special.

Racer26

11-03-2014, 11:16

ErvinI

11-03-2014, 11:52

For what its worth:

The formula for the BBQ and SAUCE of a fixed event with the same set of 1-regional teams is:

BBQ = (4*N)/T
SAUCE = (4*[N-Npre-2005])/T

Where N = the number of years the event has run and T = number of teams.

For Waterloo, this would result in a BBQ and SAUCE of 1.333 (as its a 30 team event, started in 2005).

In other words, there are roughly 3 times as many blue banners in attendance at Waterloo 2014 as Waterloo has ever generated.
Not the best place to discuss statistics, but since the intention of the SAUCE statistic is to gauge recent success of the teams at a regional using blue banners, shouldn't Npre-2005 actually be Npre-2011 or 2010 by now? We could call it the Regional Iota Banner, or RIB for short.

Just saying this to make 781 sound more awesome.

JohnFogarty

11-03-2014, 11:59

Billfred get in here and teach these boys about some sauce.

Edit: I'm excited to see my pre-season prediction come to fruition.

Racer26

11-03-2014, 12:53

Additionally, 86 of the 117 Banners coming to Waterloo are held by 3 teams (1114, 254, 2056). Together, the three of them account for 73.5% of Waterloo's BBQ.

Without them, the BBQ of the rest of the event is: 1.148

Pat Fairbank

11-03-2014, 13:09

We firmly believe that our BRISKET, Polled PORK, and TRITIP will form an unbeatable combination. Top that all off with the awesome BBQ/SAUCE at this event, and I think we have the recipe for something special.
Jared, stop making me hungry. Waterloo isn't exactly in a region known for delicious barbecue...

Racer26

11-03-2014, 13:17

Jared, stop making me hungry. Waterloo isn't exactly in a region known for delicious barbecue...

Would you prefer the Finalist Uniform Difficulty Gauging Evaluation (FUDGE)? I propose FUDGE gives 6pts to Championship Winner, 5pts to Championship Finalist, 4pts to Division Winner, 3pts to Division Finalist 2pts to Regional Winner, and 1pt to Regional Finalist, sum and divide by teams.

BigJ

11-03-2014, 13:24

I think the proper metric to use here would be Performance Of Upper-quartile in Tournament Intervals of Near Equality (POUTINE). Each team receives a point for each event they were in the #1 or #2 seeded alliances in eliminations.

mman1506

11-03-2014, 13:24

Jared, stop making me hungry. Waterloo isn't exactly in a region known for delicious barbecue...

Our machine shop actually got in trouble (deservedly) last year for barbecuing at Waterloo...

BASE

11-03-2014, 14:31

Jared, stop making me hungry. Waterloo isn't exactly in a region known for delicious barbecue...

Hey there, not all hope is lost. I would love to get a barbecue going the days of the Regional. There are a couple in residence that I know of.

tim-tim

11-03-2014, 14:37

Jared, stop making me hungry. Waterloo isn't exactly in a region known for delicious barbecue...

I thought Jared was letting us in on a little secret about the Waterloo region, I almost booked my flight just to get some Canadian BBQ; oh, and to watch robots of course.

Gregor

11-03-2014, 14:38

Hey there, not all hope is lost. I would love to get a barbecue going the days of the Regional. There are a couple in residence that I know of.

Sounds like fun. Can I come?

lynca

11-03-2014, 15:53

I'm not really into this number analysis stuff,

but I do know good BBQ. I would have to say the Dallas Regional (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125941) will have the best BBQ of Week 3. ::rtm::

EricLeifermann

11-03-2014, 16:22

Racer26

11-03-2014, 16:47

The BBQ/SAUCE stated is a little bit inflated. If you look at Billfred's original post he states he uses 2005 era as a starting point in 2008 because 2008 was the last year of high school members who were around in 2005. I say update the BBQ/SAUCE for this competition with 2011-2013 as seniors this year were freshmen in 2011.

Though the BBQ/SAUCE mentioned is incredibly amazing and definitely shows how hard this competition, and competition in Canada as a whole, is going to be this year.

BBQ is independent of the year.

SAUCE is the only one that would change.

Billfred's post defines SAUCE as starting from 2005, because that's the year we switched to 3v3, hence, Sextuple Advancement Uniform Counting Era. When he coined the term in 2008, it happened to coincide with being the year that Seniors (Gr12) would have been freshmen (Gr9).

I can see an argument though, that a four-year rolling version of SAUCE could be of value. Perhaps BRIQUETTE, the Banner Ratio Indexed to Quadrenniums of Unified Education Total Talent Estimation.

1x 25-time Regional Winner (254) [16 since 2005] [6 since 2011]
1x 22-time Regional Winner (1114) [21 since 2005] [8 since 2011]
1x 17-time Regional Winner (2056) [17 since 2005] [9 since 2011]
1x 3-time Regional Winner (781) [2 since 2005] [2 since 2011]
3x 2-time Regional Winner (771, 865, 1305) [865 only has 1 since 2005] [0 since 2011]
7x 1-time Regional Winner (1241, 1285, 1334, 2609, 2702, 3756, 4069) [1285, 1334, 2702, 3756, 4069 since 2011]
1x 4-time Championship Division Winner (254) [3 since 2005] [1 since 2011]
1x 3-time Championship Division Winner (1114) [3 since 2005] [1 since 2011]
1x 2-time Championship Division Winner (2056) [2 since 2005] [1 since 2011]
2x 1-time Championship Division Winner (781, 1241) [both since 2011]
3x 1-time Championship Winner (254, 1114, 1241) [254, 1241 since 2011]
2x Championship Chairman's Award Winner (254, 1114) [254 was in 2004] [1114 in 2012]
1x 6-time RCA Winner (1114) [6 since 2005] [2 since 2011]
1x 4-time RCA Winner (1305) [4 since 2005] [2 since 2011]
2x 3-time RCA Winner (771, 1241) [3 each since 2005] [2 each since 2011]
2x 2-time RCA Winner (254, 781) [254:0, 781:2 since 2005] [254:0, 781:2 since 2011]
1x 1-time RCA Winner (2056) [1 since 2005] [1 since 2011]

49 Blue Banners since 2011

BRIQUETTE = 1.6333

That means that in the last 4 years, the teams going to Waterloo have earned more than 3 times the Banners generated at Waterloo in that time.

Karthik

11-03-2014, 16:49

Our machine shop actually got in trouble (deservedly) last year for barbecuing at Waterloo...

Don't worry, according to some reports one team actually had a barbeque in their pits, and promised hot dogs to all visitors.

PayneTrain

11-03-2014, 17:17

You know I'm really surprised there isn't a lot of talk about using Potential Out-of-town Upset Threat and International vs Native Experience, or the POUTINE rating system to predict match outcomes.

cpeister

11-03-2014, 17:23

Jared, stop making me hungry. Waterloo isn't exactly in a region known for delicious barbecue...

Hogtails (http://www.hogtailsbbq.com/) at Erbsville and Laurelwood is really good (to my standards anyways).

Racer26

11-03-2014, 17:33

You know I'm really surprised there isn't a lot of talk about using Potential Out-of-town Upset Threat and International vs Native Experience, or the POUTINE rating system to predict match outcomes.

but how would you define that?

Is out-of-town defined by a radius? or a state/province? something else?

Additionally, how to quantify 'native' experience?

Kearse

11-03-2014, 17:35

Don't worry, according to some reports one team actually had a barbeque in their pits, and promised hot dogs to all visitors.

Mascot costumes in the form of pulled pork might be a little bit harder to find...

Mark Sheridan

11-03-2014, 17:39

You know I'm really surprised there isn't a lot of talk about using Potential Out-of-town Upset Threat and International vs Native Experience, or the POUTINE rating system to predict match outcomes.

Very hungry, and there is no real poutine in So Cal, so sad.

PayneTrain

11-03-2014, 17:45

but how would you define that?

Is out-of-town defined by a radius? or a state/province? something else?

Additionally, how to quantify 'native' experience?

Out of town: outside of a radius of 60 miles
International: Blue Banners won in the same province/state/country as the event
Native: Blue banners won within the province/state/country of the event.

RallyJeff

12-03-2014, 01:29

I thought Jared was letting us in on a little secret about the Waterloo region, I almost booked my flight just to get some Canadian BBQ; oh, and to watch robots of course.

Barbecue purists might say "that's not barbecue!" but there's a Mongolian "barbecue" place right next to UW that's very tasty:

http://www.mongoliangrill.ca/

I used to go there all the time when I was a student at Waterloo.

BTW: those of you joining us in Windsor for the Windsor Essex Great Lakes Regional in Week 6, we have real barbecue:

http://www.smokenspice.com/

A bit far from the University of Windsor, but worth the trip. :D

Duncan Macdonald

12-03-2014, 09:56

Barbecue purists might say "that's not barbecue!" but there's a Mongolian "barbecue" place right next to UW that's very tasty:

http://www.mongoliangrill.ca/

Went there as a 45 person team 2 years ago. We fit easily and at one point a cook was running laps of the grill to the space jam theme (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9FImc2LOr8) high-fiving everyone in the circle. This restaurant's Edible Affordable Theatre (EAT) stat has to be one of the highest in the region. Definitely not real barbecue though. (I went back to San Diego just to go to Phil's)

Navid Shafa

21-03-2014, 03:37

My Waterloo match schedule is color-coded Check it out here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YiTtHOGcviNus-_By17OfoSEHy5bH0__yeAPJz-CqU0/edit#gid=0).

Qualification matches are going to be really competitive tomorrow:

3 matches where 1114 & 2056 play against each other: [3,45,64]
2 matches where 254 plays against 2056: [25,60]
1 match where 254 plays with 1114: [17]
1 match where 254 plays with 2056: [53]
Match [25] looks like an elimination line-up with: 2056,1334,771 vs. 254,1241,3161

There are some really strong teams here and the pairing in qualification matches will make a huge difference in seeding. Of the titans, I think 254 has subjectively the best match schedule. With that being said, since there is so much interplay between the titans, there is a definite possibility other teams seed above them.

To make things even more interesting, The Blue Alliance Insights (http://www.thebluealliance.com/insights) page shows that 254 moved up to 33 total Blue Banners after CVR, which ties them for the most ever with 1114...

Since their rookie year in 2007, 2056 has yet to lose a Regional Event.

1114 and 2056 have 13 Regional wins and 1 World Division title together, they truly are:
"The greatest combination in the history of FIRST" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIQ85frlBzc)

Will 1114 and 2056 get to play together?
Will 254 overthrow 1114's Blue Banner Count?
Will 2056 keep their 17 Regional Win streak alive?

Waterloo 2014: The most hyped Regional Event in the history of FIRST

nrecino

21-03-2014, 08:46

That Wrecking ball Move by Karthik. Priceless.

Cullenwelch88

21-03-2014, 09:12

Where do you see the match schedule?

Thanks

Cullen

===========

Never mind found it!

Sorry!

Arefin Bari

21-03-2014, 10:09

Anyone knows if the webcast is viewable through an ipad?

Navid Shafa

21-03-2014, 10:15

The match schedule has been up since yesterday here (http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/events/ONWA/schedulequal.html), but it looks like twitter data is not getting sent out.

So the Results (http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/events/ONWA/matchresults.html) and Rankings (http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/events/ONWA/rankings.html) pages aren't working, anybody know when this will be fixed?

Duncan Macdonald

21-03-2014, 10:20

You need a flash enabled browser to watch on a mobile device.

FRCspy is working for match results (which I thought collected data from the twitter feed)

Navid Shafa

21-03-2014, 10:22

FRCspy is working for match results (which I thought collected data from the twitter feed)

Hmm, interesting. Wonder why the Waterloo Event pages aren't updating.

*Manual W/L Rankings are posted in my spreadsheet (No tiebreakers)*

Cory

21-03-2014, 10:29

Hmm, interesting. Wonder why the Waterloo Event pages aren't updating. Going to try parsing and manually post rankings in my spreadsheet.

As best as I can tell there are no event pages updating at any regional so far today.

Cullenwelch88

21-03-2014, 10:30

Hmm, interesting. Wonder why the Waterloo Event pages aren't updating. Going to try parsing and manually post rankings in my spreadsheet.

Thanks a lot Navid!

Anyone experience lag in the webcast or is it just me?

Thanks

Navid Shafa

21-03-2014, 10:31

Thanks a lot Navid!

Anyone experience lag in the webcast or is it just me?

Thanks

Webcast quality has been fine all morning for me.

Kpchem

21-03-2014, 10:47

It was originally laggy for me, but it has since cleared up. These matches are intense!

Racer26

21-03-2014, 11:01

As best as I can tell there are no event pages updating at any regional so far today.

Looks like Montreal (QCMO) and Buckeye (OHCL) are updating their event pages.

I'm getting push notifications from Spyder for Waterloo, Buckeye, and Montreal, but updating it to look for rankings + match results isn't working for Waterloo.

Bochek

21-03-2014, 11:16

Thanks a lot Navid!

Anyone experience lag in the webcast or is it just me?

Thanks

In the bottom right corner of the webcast you can change your quality. "source" is 720p @ 30fps

Try medium or low if you are having connection issues.

- Bochek

Michael Corsetto

21-03-2014, 11:17

G27 claims one of its first victims, 2056's alliance loses on 70pts worth of ramming penalties in Q16.

These are some great matches!

Navid Shafa

21-03-2014, 11:46

The announcer said that the rankings are up. I can see the rankings on the score overlay, but the Rankings page here (http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/events/ONWA/rankings.html) is still down.

Citrus Dad

21-03-2014, 11:51

You need a flash enabled browser to watch on a mobile device.

FRCspy is working for match results (which I thought collected data from the twitter feed)

FRC Spyder and BlueAlliance are not updating, and the feed at the bottom of the webcast doesn't have scores.

Navid Shafa

21-03-2014, 12:19

Rankings are now online:
http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/events/ONWA/rankings.html

Racer26

21-03-2014, 12:26

Rankings are now online:
http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/events/ONWA/rankings.html

Link 404s for me, and spyder/etc still not working.

Navid Shafa

21-03-2014, 12:34

Link 404s for me, and spyder/etc still not working.

Spyder and link are both working for me.

2056 is ranked 1st at 4-0, even though they lost a match. I bet they retroacticvely corrected the fouls on match 16. Can anyone verify?

Jared Russell

21-03-2014, 12:42

Spyder and link are both working for me.

2056 is ranked 1st at 4-0, even though they lost a match. I bet they retroacticvely corrected the fouls on match 16. Can anyone verify?

Looks like the 50 point technical foul against the red alliance in match 16 was removed. (3756 et. al.'s teleop score decreased by 50 pts)

Racer26

21-03-2014, 12:54

Looks like the 50 point technical foul against the red alliance in match 16 was removed. (3756 et. al.'s teleop score decreased by 50 pts)

...Weird. Q-16 is showing to me as a red alliance win, 148-101, but 2056 is showing as #1 seed with 4-0-0 (even though they were blue in that match, and have played only 4 matches [and were not a surrogate]).

Michael Corsetto

21-03-2014, 12:57

Looks like the 50 point technical foul against the red alliance in match 16 was removed. (3756 et. al.'s teleop score decreased by 50 pts)

Anyone know why/how the technical foul was removed? Would be interested in hearing the process for retroactively removing a technical foul.

philso

21-03-2014, 13:06

Navid Shafa

21-03-2014, 13:13

How is the video from The Blue Alliance for this Regional working for you all?

I get some scores across the bottom for Q22~Q28 and the message "Failed to load video." repeatedly. Rebooting didn't help. The Wisconsin Regional video works but keeps pausing. A few of the other ones work, many others don't. It could be the network here at work.

I've been having Wisconsin problems throughout the day. Waterloo went out a while, but it appears to be back online and back from lunch.

*This Karthik lag :P

Michael Hill

21-03-2014, 13:17

I'd be interested in the Bayesian Estimate of Average Net Score (BEANS) and CORrected Net Bayesian REduced Average Distribution (CORNBREAD).

Actually, BEANS/CORNBREAD would also be interesting.

Cullenwelch88

21-03-2014, 13:18

Webcast went out?

Navid Shafa

21-03-2014, 13:19

Webcast went out?

Yep, again.

Cullenwelch88

21-03-2014, 13:20

Yep, again.

Okay thanks!

Bochek

21-03-2014, 13:26

Try refreshing the page if the webcast is down, Justin.tv appears to have had a hiccup.

Cullenwelch88

21-03-2014, 13:26

Try refreshing the page if the webcast is down, Justin.tv appears to have had a hiccup.

It works now perfectly!

Thanks

plnyyanks

21-03-2014, 13:39

Would be interested in hearing the process for retroactively removing a technical foul.

The head ref will decide (for whatever reason) to remove the foul, he will go to the Scorekeeper and tell him to update Match x and to change the foul. The Scorekeeper can go back and edit previous results, so the foul can be removed there. Sometimes, this process takes a few matches to happen all the way through because of the workflow in the FMS software - you have to disrupt the matches to do this, you can't do this while another match is in process or prestarted.

Or at least that's how we handled it at my week 2 event.

Navid Shafa

21-03-2014, 13:54

Sometimes, this process takes a few matches to happen all the way through because of the workflow in the FMS software - you have to disrupt the matches to do this, you can't do this while another match is in process or prestarted.

They must be busy with FMS workflow. Match 16 hasn't been updated yet and the rankings haven't updated since lunch (match 22).

Thanks for the insight!

ATannahill

21-03-2014, 13:56

They must be busy with FMS workflow. Match 16 hasn't been updated yet and the rankings haven't updated since lunch (match 22).

Thanks for the insight!
The FMS should update the rankings automatically after each match. If not, the FTA should be informed.

Mike Soukup

21-03-2014, 14:03

Link 404s for me, and spyder/etc still not working.
I got word from Karthik that FMS is unable to FTP the results after each match. They plan to manually FTP during lunch and at the end of the day. I will withhold my snarky comment about the unreliability of the FMS data feed, this really isn't a hard problem to solve.

Navid Shafa

21-03-2014, 14:06

Anyone know why/how the technical foul was removed? Would be interested in hearing the process for retroactively removing a technical foul.

Karthik just clarified it on stream. Apparently the other alliance let the head ref now that the foul was incorrectly assessed and that they didn't deserve the foul . The head ref gave the OK to fix the score.

*GP at it's finest*

Michael Corsetto

21-03-2014, 14:21

Karthik just clarified it on stream. Apparently the other alliance let the head ref now that the foul was incorrectly assessed and that they didn't deserve the foul . The head ref gave the OK to fix the score.

*GP at it's finest*

Interesting precedence for the winning team contesting the referee's call.

Reminds me of our alliance getting DQed for knocking 1918 off the pyramid last year in the Curie finals, despite 67 and 1918 protesting the call, arguing that our alliance was not at fault.

Definitely GP, quality move by Team 781!

Racer26

21-03-2014, 14:27

781/4678/3683 just put up 265 Auto+Teleop Points. Nicely done.

Woolly

21-03-2014, 15:15

Match 37 looked a lot like a lunacy match.

Jared

21-03-2014, 15:20

In match 38 why wasn't one of the 3 assist goal counted?

E_puello

21-03-2014, 15:36

it was added after the match ended

JTEarley

21-03-2014, 15:57

does anybody know the current standings?

Navid Shafa

21-03-2014, 15:57

I got word from Karthik that FMS is unable to FTP the results after each match. They plan to manually FTP during lunch and at the end of the day. I will withhold my snarky comment about the unreliability of the FMS data feed, this really isn't a hard problem to solve.

Hopefully they can get this figured out for tomorrow.

Thanks to 1114 for posting this on Facebook (as of match 35):

https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/t1.0-9/p600x600/1463501_10152675803806124_1080959504_n.jpg

bduddy

21-03-2014, 16:18

I'm not sure that FIRST realizes exactly how much things like working Twitter feeds and live streams matter to making FRC an event people want to, and will, watch.

Yipyapper

21-03-2014, 16:32

781/4678/3683 just put up 265 Auto+Teleop Points. Nicely done.
Thanks.

In case anyone was wondering what happened to us after that match, a robot smashed into us and slipped out our left drive chain, beat up the left drive talon and disconnected a couple of spots on our welded shooter frame. For the next three matches, we only used the rollers and could not shoot/truss/etc with the shooter.

We hope that it will work a lot better tomorrow, but the damage was pretty bad. Rough game out there (the other alliance had 250 in foul points and a yellow card, in case you were curious). Really fun regional to watch, though, and teams like 3683, 4039, 4678, 1114, 254 amongst many, many others are all wonderful to interact with in the competition.

And if you wanted more clarification on the overturn, the call was initially made against a team on the other alliance for damaging our elephant ear, which won us the match along with a normal foul. We didn't feel it was right, so we mentioned it to the referee when the other alliance began protesting. Winning is great and all, but it felt pretty crappy to win like that.

Only thing I can think of right now, though, is the damage we took. It'll really hurt our scores, record and scouting data for other teams.

magnets

21-03-2014, 16:34

I'm not sure that FIRST realizes exactly how much things like working Twitter feeds and live streams matter to making FRC an event people want to, and will, watch.

They obviously don't care. Many people have commented that the current field system is way too complicated and poorly implemented. Streaming of events has been happening since 2003, and 11 years later, it hasn't got much better. There is very obviously internet access at this regional, but for some reason, it doesn't work with the FMS. The method of getting twitter data for matches is total nonsense. There's no reason why FIRST shouldn't make the data available in a way that actually makes sense.

The problem is that the FMS isn't set up in a way that lets FIRST modify it to fix problems easily. The field issues with inconsistent hot goal timing and pedestal delays are still causing multiple replays at each day at each competition for 5 weeks now. The fact that they can't figure out how to fix it in this amount of time is very telling.

Racer26

21-03-2014, 16:42

There is very obviously internet access at this regional, but for some reason, it doesn't work with the FMS.

This is the second Canadian regional that's had no trouble at all streaming 720p video from the venue, but can't seem to get FMS updating to the web.

Historically, Waterloo hasn't had any issues of this nature from what I can recall. I wonder if something changed in the FMS for 2014 that's broken updating at *some* events.

magnets

21-03-2014, 16:55

This is the second Canadian regional that's had no trouble at all streaming 720p video from the venue, but can't seem to get FMS updating to the web.

Historically, Waterloo hasn't had any issues of this nature from what I can recall. I wonder if something changed in the FMS for 2014 that's broken updating at *some* events.

Yes, the FMS this year has changes. Changes include new fonts for the score, rank near team numbers, a score bar that looks good in a 16:9 ratio. There is also a longer delay between teleop and auto, and I think the scoring tablets are set up a little differently. I just hope that the new FMS for the 2015 control system works better than this one.

Cory

21-03-2014, 17:06

Bochek

21-03-2014, 17:09

It has been stated at the event that this is a problem with the FIRST FTP server.

It must be the server side, because I am uploading match archives via FTP from the same network connection.

Akash Rastogi

21-03-2014, 17:12

4039 is dirty. Really nice driving.

Racer26

21-03-2014, 17:16

It has been stated at the event that this is a problem with the FIRST FTP server.

I don't debate that this may be the case, but other events are able to upload, so obviously *something* at HQ is working. Its strange.

Anybody know if the field in Waterloo is the same field that was at GTRW?

Perhaps there is a setting off on the field server?

Navid Shafa

21-03-2014, 17:19

4039 is dirty. Really nice driving.

4039 has been performing consistently well today. They definitely are a top 5 bot at Waterloo. Looking at their robot, I'm curious if they were inspired by past 2056 style design methods, or if they have any relation to OP.

Woolly

21-03-2014, 17:20

4039 is dirty. Really nice driving.

Their drive train is a bit weaker than I would like, but they've got shooting down.
They need to get with a team that has a strong drive train and good drivers that can run picks for them.

But if they hold on to that #1 spot in the rankings, that won't be a problem.

Racer26

21-03-2014, 17:22

4039 has been performing consistently well today. They definitely are a top 5 bot at Waterloo. Looking at their robot, I'm curious if they were inspired by past 2056 style design methods, or if they have any relation to OP.

I know 4039 has practiced at the facility that 1114/1503/2056/2852 share. I'm sure there is 2056 influence afoot.

They need to get with a team that has a strong drive train and good drivers that can run picks for them.

But if they hold on to that #1 spot in the rankings, that won't be a problem.

4039/254 v 1114/2056 could make for interesting finals.

George Nishimura

21-03-2014, 17:37

4039/254 v 1114/2056 could make for interesting finals.

That would be one tricky pick list. The possibility of having to choose to play any one of 254/1114, 2056/1114 or 254/2056 as a consequence, before even thinking about 1241/1285/3683/4678/etc.

With so few teams but so much depth, it's ambiguous as to whether it's a case of 'impossible to get wrong' or 'impossible to get right'.

Bochek

21-03-2014, 17:46

I don't debate that this may be the case, but other events are able to upload, so obviously *something* at HQ is working. Its strange.

Anybody know if the field in Waterloo is the same field that was at GTRW?

Perhaps there is a setting off on the field server?

Same field for all 3 Canadian events so far.

Racer26

21-03-2014, 17:50

I would say that the top 5 at the event, in order, are:

254
1114
4039
3683
2056

No matter who seeds #1, they're left with a REALLY tough choice. There is no clear choice as to who should be your first pick. If I'm 4039 and I'm #1 though? I'm picking 254.

The #2 captain's 1st pick is an even harder choice, and will likely dictate the finals matchup, but there is a serious possibility that the #1 and/or #2 seeds could get bit by the backside of the draft being fairly weak, allowing 3,4,5,6,7, or 8 to build a stronger alliance than 2 superstars and a weak 3rd, what with only 30 teams in attendance.

Racer26

21-03-2014, 17:51

Same field for all 3 Canadian events so far.

So the field in QCMO is the 2nd field in Canada and ONWA's field is the same one that was at ONTO2 and ONTO? Or is ONWA using a different field, and the ONTO2/ONTO field went to QCMO?

If this field has played all 3 Ontario regionals, did ONTO have any trouble pushing matches to web? I don't recall it did.

George Nishimura

21-03-2014, 18:08

If I'm 4039 and I'm #1 though? I'm picking 254.

This is like playing fantasy robots, but for some harmless fun, I'll stick my neck out and suggest 2056.

Strategically, 4039 excels at the front zone (ie scoring) and 2056 seems designed to play the back zone perfectly (great inbound, 5ft blocker, great truss throw).

Rather cynically, as alliance captain, if they made it to the finals and played 254/1114 (or 1285/others?), they are ensured at least a wildcard. With the serpentine and so little to separate the elite robots (and ultimately how good 2056/1114 are together), it's at least an important consideration.

plnyyanks

21-03-2014, 18:09

So the field in QCMO is the 2nd field in Canada and ONWA's field is the same one that was at ONTO2 and ONTO? Or is ONWA using a different field, and the ONTO2/ONTO field went to QCMO?

The ONWA field was also used at ONTO/ONTO2.

I don't think the QCMO field has been used before this week.

Racer26

21-03-2014, 18:14

This is like playing fantasy robots, but for some harmless fun, I'll stick my neck out and suggest 2056.

Strategically, 4039 excels at the front zone (ie scoring) and 2056 seems designed to play the back zone perfectly (great inbound, 5ft blocker, great truss throw).

Rather cynically, as alliance captain, if they made it to the finals and played 254/1114 (or 1285/others?), they are ensured at least a wildcard. With the serpentine and so little to separate the elite robots (and ultimately how good 2056/1114 are together), it's at least an important consideration.

That *is* true.

There is also the consideration that 1114 and 2056 share a practice facility, and 2056 is clearly designed to catch. I'd bet anything that there exists a well practiced Truss/Catch up their sleeve much like the ~4 sec 40pt Balance the Eh Team showed off in 2012 division elims at CMP.

Woolly

21-03-2014, 18:14

This is like playing fantasy robots, but for some harmless fun, I'll stick my neck out and say I suggest 2056.

Strategically, 4039 excels at the front zone (ie scoring) and 2056 seems designed to play the back zone perfectly (great inbound, 5ft blocker, great truss throw).

Rather cynically, as alliance captain, if they made it to the finals and played 254/1114 (or 1285/others?), they are ensured at least a wildcard. With the serpentine and so little to separate the elite robots (and ultimately how good 2056/1114 are together), it's an important consideration.

But if you pick 254 you get all of that but the blocker, a more consistent autonomous, and they'd be a suitable back-up scorer, or you could run a strategy where you alternate 4039 and 254 between scoring bot and truss bot. Not to mention, if I were 4039, I'd be worried about the reliability of 2056 who spent half a match dead today, and 1114 who's had multiple claw issues today.

Racer26

21-03-2014, 18:20

Another thought. If you're 254 and #2 seed, do you decline 4039? That's a tough call.

Mr. Lim

21-03-2014, 18:26

Fantasy pick-lists are fun.

Regardless of which teams get together in the top few alliances, the key will be the 3rd robot.

Whichever alliance can find a robot who can receive an inbound, outtake/pass a ball super cleanly, play smart defense (pushing, slowing down opponents, blocking shots), and not take penalties will win.

This is easier said than done, especially for the top few alliances because of the serpentine draft and the fact that there are only 30 teams here.

More than any regional I've seen, scouting will determine who wins this regional.

If teams do their homework, there shouldn't be any robots like this left for the #1 alliance, maybe not for the #2 or #3 ones either.

At GTRW which also fielded 30 teams, 188 worked tirelessly in the pits immediately after selections with their 3rd robot 3705 to make sure they could do this, and ended up storming through the elims, nearly winning the tournament.

IMHO, this tournament will be won tonight - at all the scouting meetings that will be taking place to find that gem of a 3rd robot.

George Nishimura

21-03-2014, 18:27

Another thought. If you're 254 and #2 seed, do you decline 4039? That's a tough call.

How the rest of the rankings will probably have just as much an effect. If 3rd seed is not 1114 or 2056, then I think they would accept.

And although I've watched most of the matches today, I haven't really figured out who might be the 18-24th picks, which could swing things.

There's huge potential for blue alliances, especially 3-6.

EDIT: Mr Lim beat me to it.

who716

21-03-2014, 19:40

Epsilon 5

21-03-2014, 20:11

George Nishimura

21-03-2014, 20:32

Sorry if this is hijacking the thread, but I want your opinion on a match played at waterloo at the end of the day (here (http://watchfirstnow.com/archives/89750047)) In your opinion, should the match have been replayed because of the cameraman hitting our ball at the 2:00 point in the video? When he hit it, the ball went back to our end of the field, costing us a cycle. If he had not hit it back in, our human player would have given it to us in the opponents end. Thanks in advance for your input.

For some reason, the video says the match was in virgina, but it was actually in waterloo.

I don't know if there are grounds for a replay in the rules based on 'accidental outside interference'.

However, I think the question you have to ask yourself is 'could we have gained an additional 16+pts'? It's a small margin, but it's still either an assist or another truss catch (in addition to scoring the high goal).

Based off the rest of the video, I don't believe, even with the additional time (which would be at best 7 seconds, based on realistic time to gather and human load the ball), there was enough time for another truss throw (and it didn't seem as if an alliance partner was ready to assist).

For reference, there was 15 seconds between the end of your first cycle and when your team possessed the ball, and more than 30 seconds (with the outside interference) the next cycle.

Plus the cameraman was clearly just trying to help.

Meiers23

21-03-2014, 21:03

4039 is dirty. Really nice driving.
Well they call me "Dirty Mike" for a reason...

Bochek

21-03-2014, 21:18

For some reason, the video says the match was in virgina, but it was actually in waterloo.

Fixed that. Sorry 'bout that.

Bongle

21-03-2014, 22:37

I'm thinking the #6, #7 or #8 alliance could have a really good combination. They'll have enough robots available to get specialists at each position (inbound, truss, goal), and might be able to disrupt the strong alliances they'll be facing early, since those robots will have a much weaker #3.

iVanDuzer

22-03-2014, 01:40

4039 has been performing consistently well today. They definitely are a top 5 bot at Waterloo. Looking at their robot, I'm curious if they were inspired by past 2056 style design methods, or if they have any relation to OP.

4039's drive coach is a 2056 alumni and was operator in 2011. I'm really excited to see how Makeshift does tomorrow.

Get'cha popcorn ready...

Richard Wallace

22-03-2014, 09:52

With 4039 playing quick turn matches in Q59 and Q61, and then 2056 against 1114 in Q64 -- well, this is going to be a fun morning in Waterloo. Wish I was there.

Hope the webcast is working well -- it was great yesterday. :)

Arefin Bari

22-03-2014, 09:54

Have they started yet?

The webcast isn't working...

Racer26

22-03-2014, 10:01

Webcast is working OK for me for the last half hour or so. (EDIT: But the FMS is still not posting results to the web in real-time. FRCSpy/Twitter seem to be working)

They're just about to replay Q59 for a cycle end issue. Of the 5 replays @ Waterloo, 4039 has been in 4 of them.

Richard Wallace

22-03-2014, 10:06

Echos ... echos .... echos.

And no FMS updates today. Nothing on FIRST site, nothing on Spyder.

And the webcast is down again, drat.

Jared Russell

22-03-2014, 10:24

Congrats to 4039, #1 seed at the 2014 Waterloo Regional.

Cast has been flawless for me all morning, but this whole FMS not uploading thing is getting old.

Mike Soukup

22-03-2014, 10:26

And no FMS updates today. Nothing on FIRST site, nothing on Spyder.

Nothing on FIRST site ==> nothing on Spyder. It's unfortunate that we have to rely on an unreliable data source. Every time we get an email from a user about Spyder not working, it ends up that FIRST isn't publishing properly for that event.

George Nishimura

22-03-2014, 10:28

Congrats to 4039, #1 seed at the 2014 Waterloo Regional.

Cast has been flawless for me all morning, but this whole FMS not uploading thing is getting old.

Ditto on all three fronts.

Hopefully someone posts the rankings (I think 254 are now second seed as it stands, 2056 3rd?)

Some great triple assists and clinical HG from 4039 today. Alliance selections will be fascinating.

NXTGeek

22-03-2014, 10:32

Congrats to 4039, #1 seed at the 2014 Waterloo Regional.

Cast has been flawless for me all morning, but this whole FMS not uploading thing is getting old.

watchfirstnow has scores and an updating vimeo feed of the matches (http://watchfirstnow.com/archives/89784590)

Racer26

22-03-2014, 10:34

watchfirstnow has scores and an updating vimeo feed of the matches (http://watchfirstnow.com/archives/89784590)

Yes, but that doesn't show the rankings, which is the biggest part the people at home want to see.

Match results are available on twitter, too.

mwmac

22-03-2014, 10:41

1114 vs 2056 now! predict 2056 wins.

Richard Wallace

22-03-2014, 10:45

Wow.

PriyankP

22-03-2014, 10:47

1114 lacks very little on their drive team already, and their HP takes them to a new level!

mwmac

22-03-2014, 10:48

Well 1114 schooled 2056 in that match. looking for a similar matchup in elims if 4039 gets either with first pick.

George Nishimura

22-03-2014, 10:48

I'm not sure there's much consequence of 2056 or 1114 finishing 3rd.

As far as I can tell, the top 5 is:

4039
254
1114
2056
4917

Justin Shelley

22-03-2014, 10:49

Dark magic is happening on The Blue Alliance, they already have uploaded all the picks for eliminations and who makes it to the semi finals and finals :ahh:

George Nishimura

22-03-2014, 10:53

Dark magic is happening on The Blue Alliance, they already have uploaded all the picks for eliminations and who makes it to the semi finals and finals :ahh:

That's GTR-E data. Probably a mistake with the database/scraper, or FIRST has accidentally updated ONTO instead of ONWA.

EDIT: Yeah, it's FIRST's issue. http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/events/ONWA/scheduleelim.html

Jared Russell

22-03-2014, 10:59

Final top 14 (first page of rankings):

4039
254
1114
2056
4917
3683
781
1285
2609
3161
1241
4678
5039
4069

Bochek

22-03-2014, 11:03

Just an update on the webcast and archiving.

Matches after Qualification 63 will have their archived copy posted after midnight tonight. We have run into our upload bandwidth limit.

We apologize for the inconvenience.

Jared Russell

22-03-2014, 11:07

Rankings are up:
http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/events/ONWA/rankings.html

PriyankP

22-03-2014, 11:41

2014 Waterloo Alliance selections:
4039 1114 4907
0254 2056 0865
4917 1285 4777
3683 1241 4992
0781 4678 5033
2609 1334 3756
3161 2702 4519
5039 4525 4069

No declines! :]

Bochek

22-03-2014, 12:58

George Nishimura

22-03-2014, 13:14

I wonder if 2056 and 254 will try and perfect the truss-catch strategy they attempted earlier today in a qualification match.

cmrnpizzo14

22-03-2014, 13:35

I wonder if 2056 and 254 will try and perfect the truss-catch strategy they attempted earlier today in a qualification match.

Seems like you're right. That looks deadly.

Jay O'Donnell

22-03-2014, 13:36

These eliminations are already insane. I can see why it's called the highest scoring regional in FIRST.

George Nishimura

22-03-2014, 14:54

JohnFogarty

22-03-2014, 14:56

I would love to hear clarification on that G12 call on 1114 in SF1-1. Was it called for trapping/overt isolation at the end?

If so, that would be an interesting new development of possession rules. I haven't seen it called before for that.

I've seen that called for that exact same thing, several times at both Orlando and Palmetto. It's trapping.

MrTechCenter

22-03-2014, 14:58

I would love to hear clarification on that G12 call on 1114 in SF1-1. Was it called for trapping/overt isolation at the end?

If so, that would be an interesting new development of possession rules. I haven't seen it called before for that.

We've been called for that at Sacramento, although the penalty was not assessed until after we moved away from the ball. There is a lot of inconsistency in these types of calls.

avanboekel

22-03-2014, 14:59

Jay O'Donnell

22-03-2014, 15:08

350 with no penalties....wow.

BlueShark

22-03-2014, 15:23

Please tell me that someone has videos of every match at the regional, or at least all of the elims, and will make them publicly available?

JohnSchneider

22-03-2014, 15:25

Please tell me that someone has videos of every match at the regional, or at least all of the elims, and will make them publicly available?

watchfirstnow.com archives the canadian events

Jack_poldon

22-03-2014, 15:25

Please tell me that someone has videos of every match at the regional, or at least all of the elims, and will make them publicly available?

They are all posted here.

http://watchfirstnow.com/

Not sure when they'll all be up but most of them are.

tylerobot

22-03-2014, 15:30

The 350 point match was SF2-1.
http://watchfirstnow.com/archives/89798269

Three 60 point cycles (inbound to 865, 254 shoots over truss, 2056 catches, 2056 shoots high goal)
Two 50 point cycle (inbound to 865, 254 shoots over truss, 2056 shoots high goal)

http://i.imgur.com/IlW7HY9.jpg

ErvinI

22-03-2014, 15:30

A lot is at stake for SF 1-3. This will decide who will move on to champs due to 254's wild card, either 4039 or 3683.

brandon.cottrell

22-03-2014, 15:51

A lot is at stake for SF 1-3. This will decide who will move on to champs due to 254's wild card, either 4039 or 3683.

Hall of fame teams don't generate Wildcards.

EDIT: Oh wait I get what you mean nevermind, I forgot about Central Valley.

Richard Wallace

22-03-2014, 15:51

I wonder if the head ref is reviewing video with Aidan right now?

Good call on the Chicken Dance with mascots and judges -- Waterloo rocks!

Jonathan Norris

22-03-2014, 15:52

Did that last blue low goal score go in or not??

Meredith Novak

22-03-2014, 15:52

And the band played on... and the judges do the chicken dance.

Bochek

22-03-2014, 15:55

Did that last blue low goal score go in or not??

Waiting for the Ref's to decide, It went in the front, then out the side after the buzzer.

Jay O'Donnell

22-03-2014, 15:55

Did that last blue low goal score go in or not??

I believe it went in through the front, and somehow went out the side. I think that and another penalty is what they are discussing.

George Nishimura

22-03-2014, 15:56

Did that last blue low goal score go in or not??

That's the debate.

By the rulebook, probably not. It says 'remain completely' in the goal, although it is unclear how long 'remain' means, as I believe the ball was fully in the goal at some point.

I presume the delay is someone calling FIRST HQ to make sure the intent of the rule is clear and the actual definition of 'remain completely'.

Pjohn1959

22-03-2014, 15:56

Did that last blue low goal score go in or not??

That's what the delay is for. Trying to decide that...

brandon.cottrell

22-03-2014, 15:58

Blue wins.

For the record, apparently the goal at the end of the game was not counted.

Cullenwelch88

22-03-2014, 16:00

What a match!! Good job to the ref for taking the time to review and reflect!

Cheers!!!

JohnFogarty

22-03-2014, 16:00

1114 is having the worst luck with fouls this year.

Lil' Lavery

22-03-2014, 16:00

Eeek. Tough way to go. Getting a 50 point foul from the actions of the other alliances, in which they only get a 20 point foul. By the letter of the law, the calls seem correct, though.

Racer26

22-03-2014, 16:01

Did that last blue low goal score go in or not??

What I saw? 3683 pushed the BALL into the LOW GOAL just as time expired. 1114 was defending this action. The BALL went in the front face of the LOW GOAL, and came out the left face of it, instead of out the back face through the ALLIANCE STATION.

According to the announcement at the event?

1241 initiated damaging contact with 1114 outside the FRAME PERIMETER (20 pts awarded to RED)

1114 was > 20" outside their FRAME PERIMETER (50 pts awarded to BLUE)

LOW GOAL at T=0 was NOT SCORED.

Jonathan Norris

22-03-2014, 16:01

Ty Tremblay

22-03-2014, 16:03

Goal didn't count.

But 1114 just lost because 1241 broke their 'antenna', I don't get it. Isn't there a rule that you can't cause the other team to get a penalty? you penalize 1241 for causing the damage, but ALSO give 1114 a 50 point penalty for being outside 20" frame perimeter... don't get it. ugh.

The rule prevents STRATEGIES causing the opposing alliance to get fouls.

G14:

Strategies aimed solely at forcing the opposing ALLIANCE to violate a rule are not in the spirit of FRC and are not allowed. Rule violations forced in this manner will not result in assessment of a penalty on the target ALLIANCE.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL

Lil' Lavery

22-03-2014, 16:04

Goal didn't count.

But 1114 just lost because 1241 broke their 'antenna', I don't get it. Isn't there a rule that you can't cause the other team to get a penalty? you penalize 1241 for causing the damage, but ALSO give 1114 a 50 point penalty for being outside 20" frame perimeter... don't get it. ugh.

Here is the rule:
G14
Strategies aimed solely at forcing the opposing ALLIANCE to violate a rule are not in the spirit of FRC and are not allowed. Rule violations forced in this manner will not result in assessment of a penalty on the target ALLIANCE.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL

I don't think 1241's actions can be classified as a "strategy aimed" towards causing 1114 to take a foul, and certainly "solely" aimed at that goal. Thus it didn't violate <G14>, and not triggering <G14> means the foul on 1114 counts.

JohnSchneider

22-03-2014, 16:04

Daniel_LaFleur

22-03-2014, 16:05

The rule prevents STRATEGIES causing the opposing alliance to get fouls.

This foul will be discussed all week.

ErvinI

22-03-2014, 16:05

Racer26

22-03-2014, 16:06

seriously hope that 1114 has better luck at the worlds.

1114 still has a chance to win ONWI in 2 weeks time.

Brutal luck though.

Richard Wallace

22-03-2014, 16:06

Why does 1114's G24 violation result in a 50 pt technical? Was it continuous or repeated?

Racer26

22-03-2014, 16:07

http://www.watchfirstnow.com/archives/89799948

At 1:15, you see the contact for a split second and 1114 losing their antenna. Not sure what you guys see, but it looked like 1241's intake hit the antenna from this angle.

That's exactly what it looks like to me. Looks like incidental contact from 1241's intake broke the antenna.

Daniel_LaFleur

22-03-2014, 16:08

Why does 1114's G24 violation result in a 50 pt technical? Was it continuous or repeated?

I started at ~1:15 in the match, so it was continuous.

Racer26

22-03-2014, 16:08

Why does 1114's G24 violation result in a 50 pt technical? Was it continuous or repeated?

Their broken antenna remained >20" outside the FRAME PERIMETER for the remainder of the match.

Jack_poldon

22-03-2014, 16:08

Should it maybe be this?

G28
Initiating deliberate or damaging contact with an opponent ROBOT on or inside the vertical extension of its FRAME PERIMETER is not allowed.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL

Jay O'Donnell

22-03-2014, 16:08

Why does 1114's G24 violation result in a 50 pt technical? Was it continuous or repeated?

It was continuous. One of their PVC antenna things fell backwards and went outside the 20 inches for a decent part of the match.

PriyankP

22-03-2014, 16:09

This foul will be discussed all week.

There's nothing to discuss though, 1241 didn't do that on purpose - I'm sure even Sims would agree. Tough loss nonetheless.

Link07

22-03-2014, 16:09

The rule prevents STRATEGIES causing the opposing alliance to get fouls.

+1

G14
Strategies aimed solely at forcing the opposing ALLIANCE to violate a rule are not in the spirit of FRC and are not allowed. Rule violations forced in this manner will not result in assessment of a penalty on the target ALLIANCE.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL

1241 was not strategically trying to make 1114 extend out of their frame perimeter.

brandon.cottrell

22-03-2014, 16:09

I'm pretty sure in good defense you want Incidental contact, but I'm absolutely sure it wasn't the intention of 1241 to break anything on 1114

Daniel_LaFleur

22-03-2014, 16:11

There's nothing to discuss though, 1241 didn't do that on purpose - I'm sure even Sims would agree. Tough loss nonetheless.

Oh, I agree. Nothing against 1241. It didn't look intentional at all.

But a 20 point foul caused a 50 point foul for the opponent. It will be discussed, even though I believe the refs got it right.

George Nishimura

22-03-2014, 16:13

I know this will be another stick to beat Aerial Assist with (which is a shame, because these semi-finals/Waterloo in general has been one of the best exhibitions of what AA is capable of), but before it is, hasn't a scenario like this been possible every year?

Either way, with the definition of SCORED, the result was going to be unfortunate towards one alliance.

EDIT: I expect an update to change the wording of G24.

Adam Freeman

22-03-2014, 16:17

Called correctly within the rules or not.... You should not be able to damage someone elses robot and cause them to get a penalty.

Especially if you only get a 20pt penalty and they end up with a 50pt penalty.

Common sense should come into play at some point.

45Auto

22-03-2014, 16:19

Am I watching the wrong video? Looks like 1114's red teammate, 4039, breaks off 1114's antenna with 69 seconds left in the match.

http://www.watchfirstnow.com/archives/89799948

Racer26

22-03-2014, 16:20

Oh, I agree. Nothing against 1241. It didn't look intentional at all.

But a 20 point foul caused a 50 point foul for the opponent. It will be discussed, even though I believe the refs got it right.

The rules in question, by my viewing:

A ROBOT’S horizontal dimensions may never exceed 20 in. beyond its FRAME PERIMETER (see illustration in Figure 3-6).

Violation: FOUL. If continuous or repeated violations, TECHNICAL FOUL.

Strategies aimed at and/or game play resulting in the damage, destruction or inhibition of opponent ROBOTS via actions such as high-speed or repeated, aggressive ramming, attachment, tipping, or entanglement of ROBOTS are not allowed.

Violation: FOUL. If strategic, TECHNICAL FOUL. Potential YELLOW CARD.

<BB>For example, use of a wedge-like MECHANISM to flip ROBOTS would be considered a violation of G27.

MECHANISMS outside the FRAME PERIMETER are particularly susceptible to causing such damage and drawing this penalty and/or penalties associated with violations of G28. Teams are encouraged to be cautious in their use of such appendages when engaging in ROBOT to ROBOT MATCH play.</BB>

Initiating deliberate or damaging contact with an opponent ROBOT on or inside the vertical extension of its FRAME PERIMETER is not allowed.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL

<BB>High speed accidental collisions may occur during the MATCH and are expected. Generally, ROBOTS extend elements outside of the FRAME PERIMETER at their own risk.

A ROBOT with an element outside its FRAME PERIMETER may be penalized under this rule if it appears they are using that element to purposefully contact another ROBOT inside its FRAME PERIMETER. Regardless of intent, a ROBOT with an element outside its FRAME PERIMETER that causes damage to another ROBOT inside of its FRAME PERIMETER will be penalized, unless the actions of the damaged ROBOT are the catalyst for the damage.</BB>

We all agree that G14 is not invoked, as the actions were not deliberate.

G24 certainly should be called on 1114. Their antenna was >20" outside their FRAME PERIMETER for a continuous time. TECHNICAL FOUL.

G27 should be invoked by the "gameplay resulting in damage to opponent ROBOTs" clause. FOUL.

G28 should ALSO be invoked by "Initiating... damaging contact with an opponent ROBOT... inside the vertical extension of the FRAME PERIMETER". TECHNICAL FOUL.

George Nishimura

22-03-2014, 16:23

EDIT: Was wrong

Racer26

22-03-2014, 16:24

With these finals though?

3683 is guaranteed their first seat at CMP (either they win, or 254's WILD CARD).
2056 is guaranteed their seat. (either they win, or 1241's WILD CARD)

Racer26

22-03-2014, 16:25

G27 is not called because the "via" clause is not enacted.

"via actions such as..." provides examples, not an exhaustive list.

Regardless, the TECHNICAL FOUL from G28 would have made the red alliance win.

PriyankP

22-03-2014, 16:27

"via actions such as..." provides examples, not an exhaustive list.

Regardless, the TECHNICAL FOUL from G28 would have made the red alliance win.

"unless the actions of the damaged ROBOT are the catalyst for the damage"

The refs may have deemed that 1114's action of playing defence while 1241 was picking up was a catalyst to the damage caused.

ErvinI

22-03-2014, 16:29

Am I watching the wrong video? Looks like 1114's red teammate, 4039, breaks off 1114's antenna with 69 seconds left in the match.

http://www.watchfirstnow.com/archives/89799948

The antenna was broken beforehand. You can see for a split second that when 1241 is trying to pick up their ball a couple of seconds before, 1114's antenna is falling.

What is the use of those antennae, anyway? They light up once in a while.

Racer26

22-03-2014, 16:31

"unless the actions of the damaged ROBOT are the catalyst for the damage"

The refs may have deemed that 1114's action of playing defence while 1241 was picking up was a catalyst to the damage caused.

Hard to tell with the way the video cuts right when it happens.

It looks like 1114 was trying to bump the ball away. I'd have a hard time making the call of whether or not their action was the catalyst for the damage, or simply that 1241 was racing to pick up the ball and happened to run into 1114 doing it.

George Nishimura

22-03-2014, 16:35

What rule was cited for the 20pt foul? I think I've confused myself.

It's hard to tell because the antenna is out of shot when that contact happens. You can only see it a second later in the reflection of the alliance station.

Ty Tremblay

22-03-2014, 16:35

The antenna was broken beforehand. You can see for a split second that when 1241 is trying to pick up their ball a couple of seconds before, 1114's antenna is falling.

What is the use of those antennae, anyway? They light up once in a while.

The left one lights up when their shooter wheel is at speed. The right one doesn't light up. They're used for catching.

PriyankP

22-03-2014, 16:37

Hard to tell with the way the video cuts right when it happens.

It looks like 1114 was trying to bump the ball away. I'd have a hard time making the call of whether or not their action was the catalyst for the damage, or simply that 1241 was racing to pick up the ball and happened to run into 1114 doing it.

1241 was trying to truss the blue ball.
1114 was playing defence.
1114 blocked the shot.
1241 tries to pick up the blocked blue ball.
1114 also heads towards the blue ball to play defence on 1241.
Both teams interact resulting in a broken antennae.

I'm sure there are many ways people will analyze this but I feel that both robots were part of the damage and that's why the refs did not call the technical foul on 1241.

pfreivald

22-03-2014, 16:40

Does anyone know the purpose of the antennae?

Racer26

22-03-2014, 16:40

1241 was trying to truss the blue ball.
1114 was playing defence.
1114 blocked the shot.
1241 tries to pick up the blocked blue ball.
1114 also heads towards the blue ball to play defence on 1241.
Both teams interact resulting in a broken antennae.

I'm sure there are many ways people will analyze this but I feel that both robots were part of the damage and that's why the refs did not call the technical foul on 1241.

I'm gonna guess that's how the refs have called it. If that's what they're calling it, the call is correct. Still seems kind of broken that I can cause my opponent to take a 50 pt penalty while only getting a 20 pt one myself, even if only by accident.

Richard Wallace

22-03-2014, 16:46

I'm gonna guess that's how the refs have called it. If that's what they're calling it, the call is correct. Still seems kind of broken that I can cause my opponent to take a 50 pt penalty while only getting a 20 pt one myself, even if only by accident.Paul said it best, while we were waiting for the result: hate the rules, not the refs. The refs called this one correctly by the rules.

Adam is right (see the previous page) -- common sense should come into this at some point.

------

Back to the event, still in progress. :)

Congratulations to the winners, 254/2056/865. Very well played! It is fun to watch this game being played with speed and skill.

Duncan Macdonald

22-03-2014, 16:49

I'm gonna guess that's how the refs have called it. If that's what they're calling it, the call is correct. Still seems kind of broken that I can cause my opponent to take a 50 pt penalty while only getting a 20 pt one myself, even if only by accident.

The way the refs ruled they didn't feel 1241 "caused" the collision. A collision "happened", thus the G27 for a result of gameplay.

Racer26

22-03-2014, 16:54

Paul said it best, while we were waiting for the result: hate the rules, not the refs. The refs called this one correctly by the rules.

Adam is right (see the previous page) -- common sense should come into this at some point.

Yeah, its situations like this that the G24-analog in various years has been among my least favourite rules. For years, I've thought its wording should be changed to have some wiggle room such as "intentional or consequential..." to allow refs to simply ignore minor damaged robot bits dragging on the floor without requiring them to call it. To me, the intent of the rule is to control robot design, not penalize broken bits.

Alternatively, design the game so that doing so can't be strategically advantageous.

Caleb Sykes

22-03-2014, 16:55

George Nishimura

22-03-2014, 17:06

I will just leave one question for discussion. If 1114's antennae had fallen completely off of their robot instead of bending down, how many penalty points would they have received? Why is this value different from the one which was assessed against them?

EDIT: Two questions. :)

This is why the rule needs to be amended. G19 (leaving parts on the field) is a TF only if intentional.

The inconsistency was a major oversight that was unfortunately brought to the spotlight.

EDIT: On a positive note, congratulations to 254/2056/865 for their victory!

Waterloo is consistently the best regional to watch, and that's a culmination of the collaboration of the quality of the teams, the great production (MC, GA, DJ, team behind the stream) and especially all the event organizers and volunteers who make it happen.

nuclearnerd

22-03-2014, 19:12

That was a tough loss, but in my opinion, team DAVE's alliance earned the close score. They played some pretty sweet defense, and were able to make all three assists each cycle. It would have been nice to cap off our performance yesterday with a wildcard to the worlds, but I'm really proud of 4039 for getting so far in their third year. Congrats to 254, 2056 and 865 for their ridiculously awesome point totals. Good luck in St Louis.

Bongle

22-03-2014, 19:16

Those eliminations were crazy fun to watch, and this was probably the hardest regional I've ever been at. Our robot was temperamental, the qualifying pace was _insane_ (about 30 minutes between matches. Thanks to a replay, we had 11 matches in a single day, and I think one of our alliance partners in our replay had 12 matches in a day), and the field was super-deep. With an average of 5 matches between each robot going up, it meant that most matches contained a veritable powerhouse (254/1114/2056), and due to the crazy depth at Waterloo, the rest of the matches contained a robot that'd be a thread to win any other regional on the planet. 3683, 4678, 781 pre-damage, 1241, 1285, 4917, and probably others I'm forgetting would all be big threats anywhere.

Outsider review: I had a friend come who had never heard of the game (or FIRST), and she thought the game was quite followable and was cheering at all the right spots. Granted these eliminations were among the best I've seen after 11 years going to competitions, so that may have played into it too. The (what felt like) 40-50-minute ref delay after the 4039/3683 semifinal was reviewed as pretty annoying, but overall she thought the game and event was pretty good. Looking at the match results it looks like it was only a 18-minute delay, but it felt _much_ longer.

Bongle

22-03-2014, 19:31

Also, a took a video of a particularly problematic sensor on the robot: we had a two 3d-printed gears that communicated position from our shooter frame to a potentiometer. The circular gear that was on the pot input kept shifting (when it was on setscrews) and breaking (when we fixed it very firmly) on Friday, which is why our shooter was out of commission all day.

After we were out, I had the drive team do a dry fire and taped it with my sony action cam's 120fps mode to see if we could find evidence for why that gear seemed to be taking so much abuse. The video is inconclusive, but still neat to watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEogRuD8lqU

Tungrus

22-03-2014, 19:55

Navid Shafa

22-03-2014, 20:06

Will 1114 and 2056 get to play together?
Will 254 overthrow 1114's Blue Banner Count?
Will 2056 keep their 17 Regional Win streak alive?

The Canadians Brothers were split.
254 moves up to 34 in the blue banner count and overtakes 1114's previous all-time record.
2056 is now at an 18 Regional Win streak, they are looking to add one more on the year at Windsor Essex in week 6.

TikiTech

22-03-2014, 20:47

@ 1:17 in video 1114 was driving to stop blue robot from picking the ball. Though blue robot was moving with extended appendage, it was 1114 who drove into them. From my couch it looks like refs made correct call.

I wonder how long the argument was trying to show that they were forced, by damaged caused by another robot, G14. to violate rule R3. Though G14 would not apply because the damage was not caused by "Strategies aimed solely at forcing the opposing ALLIANCE to violate a rule"

So much influence the new rules update... Some regionals there was little defense!

Still such a supreme round of matches. Well done to all competitors!

Aloha!

Reanna

22-03-2014, 20:54

Which teams received wild card slots? (If any)

ErvinI

22-03-2014, 20:56

Which teams received wild card slots? (If any)

3683 did, I believe that was it (due to 254 winning CVR).

Gregor

22-03-2014, 20:58

3683 did, I believe that was it (due to 254 winning CVR).

That's correct.

Abhishek R

22-03-2014, 22:47

3683 did, I believe that was it (due to 254 winning CVR).

Glad to see them going to Champs, they played great here and at GTR.

Ian Curtis

23-03-2014, 00:49

We’re seeing lots of penalties being called. We’ve modified G40 and G28 to hopefully reduce the frequency of these particular fouls being called, which were the most prevalent. We did not adjust the points associated with these penalties. With all game-play related penalties, we don’t want an alliance to perceive a potential strategic advantage to intentionally ‘taking the foul’. This is carefully considered when assigning point values. Also, regarding G40, the penalty is high because this is a potential safety issue.

Source (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-2014-Week-1-Review)

Bold for emphasis. Does the GDC assume broken bits don't count for the purposes of the 20" extension rule? Is there precedent for whether they do, or do not count?

Thad House

23-03-2014, 00:54

Anthony Galea

23-03-2014, 01:00

I was watching the videos of the finals, and I'm wondering why the 2 seed was blue? I always thought that the higher seed was the red alliance. Looking through the rules, I actually didnt see anything in the elimination rules saying what the rules about this are.

Also, these were some absolutely amazing matches. Such a great alliance and strategy.

The top alliance in the bracket is red, not seed. So because of that, this is the bumpers per round:

1: R R R
2: R R B
3: R B B
4: R B R
5: B B R
6: B B B
7: B R B
8: B R R

Bongle

23-03-2014, 07:44

I was watching the videos of the finals, and I'm wondering why the 2 seed was blue? I always thought that the higher seed was the red alliance. Looking through the rules, I actually didnt see anything in the elimination rules saying what the rules about this are.

Also, these were some absolutely amazing matches. Such a great alliance and strategy.

You can also think of it as the highest-seed alliance that each alliance has defeated to that point.

The winner of 3683 (winner of 4v5) vs 4039 (winner of 1v8) will either be or have defeated the #1 alliance, so they get the red bumpers to signify their fearsomeness.

john.hobbins

23-03-2014, 11:15

Not 100% sure about this, but I did take lengthy looks at 1114's antennae over the last two regionals and know that one purpose is to secure the shooting mechanism while manually transporting the robot on/off the field. Basically it stabilizes the shooting mechanism by clipping them on to the side of the claw shooter which keeps it steady while moving the robot when it is not in a match. They are also hinged at the bottom and perhaps the hinged portion released and dropped down (meaning it was not actually broken, but just in an undesirable position?) which resulted in the penalty. Too bad either way as no one wants to see matches determined this way. That 1114 robot is one heck of a beautiful machine...

Karthik

23-03-2014, 11:20

They are also hinged at the bottom and perhaps the hinged portion released and dropped down (meaning it was not actually broken, but just in an undesirable position?) which resulted in the penalty.

This is incorrect. It was definitely broken.

Too bad either way as no one wants to see matches determined this way.

You seemed pretty happy about it from your vantage point behind the scorers table.

Cullenwelch88

23-03-2014, 11:28

I personally don't think anyone would be happy with what has happened. ::safety::

Karthik

23-03-2014, 11:38

Aside from the nonsense during the semifinals, The Waterloo Regional was once again an amazing event. It was great to see our friends from Team 254 make the journey all the way from California, and even better watching their robot dominate on the field. Our team had a lot of fun hanging out with you guys and is looking forward to doing more of it in St. Louis.

Congratulations to Team 2056 on extending their regional win streak to 18. You guys kept improving throughout the weekend, and proved to everyone why doubting 2056 is never a good idea. It's easy to forget how impressive your streak actually is. We're now on eight seasons of 2056 never losing a regional, competing against the top teams in FIRST. Unreal. Also, congratulations to Team 865 on their 3rd ever regional win. It was great seeing you convert from a defensive robot in qualifying to an assisting robots in the eliminations.

A special shoutout goes to Team 3683, on earning their first ever trip champs with a Wildcard generated by Team 254. We love working with you guys both at our practice field and at competition. We're pumped to see you see you show off your robot on the big stage in St. Louis.

Thank you to our alliance partners Team 4039 and 4907. In case you haven't been paying attention, Team 4039 has been the most under the radar team in FIRST over the past two seasons. We really hope you qualify for Champs in NYC, because it would be a shame to see an elite robot as theirs miss out on chance to play with and against the best.

In terms of individuals, three people very close to our team took home some hardware this weekend. Tarjote Chaggar from 2056 won the Volunteer of the Year, Matt Alderson from 4039 won the WFFA and Krysta Peralto from 3161 won her second Dean's List Finalist Award. It was great to see such amazing people earn these prestigious honours.

Finally congratulations to Team 1334 for a long overdue Chairman's Award. I've thought you've deserved a CA for the past 5 years, but for whatever reason you kept getting passed over. It rather satisfying to see you finally get the recognition your program deserves.

BenB

23-03-2014, 12:20

There seems to be some confusion over the purpose of the wings on our robot, so I thought I would clarify.

They were originally designed to aid with catching. It was conveniently located to serve a dual purpose of supporting our claw in starting configuration while the robot is turned off.

The wings can be in three positions, actuated by a 3/4" bore pneumatic cylinder on each wing. When the cylinder is fully extended, the wings are open and extend ~18" outside our frame perimeter. Due to a compression spring on the cylinder rod, when the cylinders are "retracted", the wings extend ~3" outside our frame perimeter; just enough to allow the starting config hooks to move past them during match play. To put the robot in starting config, we pull the wings in further, compressing the springs around the cylinder rod and hook them onto the claw.

The damage we sustained in SF1-3 sheared the 1/4" steel cylinder rod on one of our wings, which is always completely inside our frame perimeter.

nuclearnerd

23-03-2014, 12:55

The damage we sustained in SF1-3 sheared the 1/4" steel cylinder rod on one of our wings, which is always completely inside our frame perimeter.

Ugh, that's a heck of a way to go. Sorry it ended that way. Hopefully you have better luck in Windsor!

Bongle

23-03-2014, 12:55

There may be many opinions about Aerial Assist, but I think everyone can agree that there's a lot going on in any given match, which can make it difficult to appreciate each robot's role.

Here's a 4x-slowed-down version of Waterloo's Q64.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITwZGJarD-4&feature=youtu.be

It's amazing that even at this slow pace, there's so much going on. Including Karthik moonlighting as a field reset person at 3:15.

Robotparent

23-03-2014, 18:06

This is incorrect. It was definitely broken.

You seemed pretty happy about it from your vantage point behind the scorers table.

This is a very disappointing comment coming from you Karthik, you are supposed to be as unbiased as John is. As a person that many of these young people look up to, your comment comes off as neither gracious nor professional and an apology to John should be forthcoming.

Racer26

23-03-2014, 18:41

Cullenwelch88

23-03-2014, 18:49

magnets

23-03-2014, 18:49

This is a very disappointing comment coming from you Karthik, you are supposed to be as unbiased as John is. As a person that many of these young people look up to, your comment comes off as neither gracious nor professional and an apology to John should be forthcoming.

Team 1114 has every right to be upset about this. If the competition had happened the previous week, then the team breaking off their wing would have gotten a technical foul, which would have let 1114's alliance win. The GDC changed a rule a day before the competition started, and let teams like 1114 be the guinea pigs to test out the rules. The GDC should not be testing their rules, that were released before anybody had any time to think about them, on actual competitions. It makes zero sense that an added rule, designed to prevent and discourage robot damage and destruction, would penalize a team for being the recipient of "game play that results in damage", but the old rule does not.

When people cheer for these results, they're saying to FIRST that they're okay with these kinds of rule changes. Karthik is upset because his team has been the victim of a poorly written foul rule twice this year.

JVN

23-03-2014, 19:01

I agree with your comment 100%. Never thought a comment like that would come from Karthik. My kids actually look up to him all the time. What a change in character!

Where is the change in character?
Seems like Karthik just pointed out a discrepancy between a publicly made comment and that individuals public actions.

I guess it would be in better taste for Karthik to smile, nod, and accept the inherent hypocrisy?

Tough calls are made in FRC all the time. Sometimes these calls go our way, sometimes they don't. Winning or Losing our reactions are what matter. I was impressed by my friend Karthik's actions as MC after a call didn't go his team's way. I hope that in a similar situation I would behave as professionally.

Stating distasteful truth out-loud is often seen as distasteful... even when it is still truth.

Kevin_Morris

23-03-2014, 19:16

I agree with your comment 100%. Never thought a comment like that would come from Karthik. My kids actually look up to him all the time. What a change in character!

Hmm... I don't see any reason for your kids not to continue looking up to Karthik in that post.

If a single post on an internet forum sways your opinion of someone's character, you will likely find yourself disappointed by many people. Especially a post as mild as that one.

Karthik

23-03-2014, 19:17

This is a very disappointing comment coming from you Karthik, you are supposed to be as unbiased as John is.

Actually, I'm not. I'm a proud member of Team 1114 and merely a FIRST volunteer. John on the other hand is a FIRST Regional Director and is held to a much higher standard.

When I'm MCing, part of my job is to be as unbiased as possible. I'd like to think I've done that for the past 10 years. But I guess I'm not doing a good enough job. That's why I made the decision yesterday to never MC again in Ontario. I'm sure this will make your team very happy; whichever anonymous team that is.

As a person that many of these young people look up to, your comment comes off as neither gracious nor professional and an apology to John should be forthcoming.

I stand firmly by my original comment.

I agree with your comment 100%. Never thought a comment like that would come from Karthik. My kids actually look up to him all the time. What a change in character!

I'm sorry to disappoint both of you and your anonymous teams. If these students looked up to me, I would hope it was because of my passion, my fire, and my unwavering belief that people should stand up against hypocrisy and for what they believe in. To any of those I let down, I do apologize. It was never my intent to disappoint you. I'm sorry.

George Nishimura

23-03-2014, 19:19

Team 1114 has every right to be upset about this. If the competition had happened the previous week, then the team breaking off their wing would have gotten a technical foul, which would have let 1114's alliance win. The GDC changed a rule a day before the competition started, and let teams like 1114 be the guinea pigs to test out the rules. The GDC should not be testing their rules, that were released before anybody had any time to think about them, on actual competitions. It makes zero sense that an added rule, designed to prevent and discourage robot damage and destruction, would penalize a team for being the recipient of "game play that results in damage", but the old rule does not.

I would like to interject here:

I don't think the issue has anything to do with the fact that 1241 were not given a technical foul. I personally believe they didn't deserve a 50pt penalty (nor any).

The issue is also not that the rule update was put out on a Thursday instead of a Tuesday. I believe everyone at the regional was aware of the new rules. It's also misleading to use the word 'guinea pigs', unless you consider every team competing at an event after a Tuesday rule update a 'guinea pig'. Rule updates exist because the GDC are not ominiscient - teams design, build, play in more imaginative ways than they could possibly have prepared for. (On a side point, I am curious as to how else you would 'test the rules'?)

The update to G27 has helped turned this game from Aerial Assault back to Aerial Assist, as highlighted by some great play at Waterloo.

The real issue is G24. I do not believe the wording of this rule matches the intent. At least, I do not believe it was GDC's intent to punish teams for violating this rule if it was forced inadvertedly from damage by another robot. Especially as it was wholly inconsequential to the outcome of the match.

The tragedy was that 1114 were punished, not that 1241 were not penalized enough.

EDIT: On second reading, I realize I may have mis-interpreted your point. I agree that the rules are wrong and I agree that the rule update did indadvertedly create this ruling, but I want to emphasise that the issue was that the rule update did not change G24, not that it changed G27/G28.

dodar

23-03-2014, 19:20

I'm kinda of curious as to where everyone is reading the malice of Karthik's words? His post seemed perfectly fine.

cadandcookies

23-03-2014, 19:27

Navid Shafa

23-03-2014, 19:31

plnyyanks

23-03-2014, 19:32

That's why I made the decision yesterday to never MC again in Ontario.

As an outsider - that's terrible, Ontario is losing a great emcee with this. Your user tag "achievement through enthusiasm;" you and 1114 do both of those things very well and its a shame things like this have to happen.

I'm sure NEFIRST would love to have you, if you want to continue emceeing and ever venture stateside.

wireties

23-03-2014, 19:48

That's why I made the decision yesterday to never MC again in Ontario.

The students and the young mentors on 1296 are quoting "Karthik" all the time. It is like Karthik sits in on all our design discussions (useful since we have no ME mentors). I'm so busy outside of FIRST I rarely get time to watch any other teams but I made a point of catching Waterloo Friday and part of Saturday. I thoroughly enjoyed Karthik's MC-ing (is that a word?). It is nice to have a guy/girl who really knows robots and the game rules doing running color commentary. Karthik's dialogue was entertaining and informative.

It seems wrong to call Karthik out for one emotional (and I think understandable) reaction. I miss the early days of the internet when correct spelling was optional and it was understood that it is difficult/impossible to convey emotion in ASCII.

So - I don't know ya but your annual Waterloo act will be missed!

RallyJeff

23-03-2014, 20:00

When I'm MCing, part of my job is to be as unbiased as possible. I'd like to think I've done that for the past 10 years. But I guess I'm not doing a good enough job. That's why I made the decision yesterday to never MC again in Ontario. I'm sure this will make your team very happy; whichever anonymous team that is.

Karthik, I hope you reconsider.

I wasn't in Waterloo. Everything I've heard about it came nth-hand, so I don't know what exactly went on, but I do know that both you and John have done a tremendous amount of work to make FIRST grow and thrive in Ontario. I have great respect for both of you. I sincerely hope that whatever the issues are between you, they can be resolved.

You've done an amazing job as an MC. Your energy and passion are contagious, and I know that you've had a huge positive impact on countless kids.

... and on me, too. Looking back, I think that the attitude I saw you express toward FIRST at my first few events was a big part of what made me realize just how important FIRST is, which has informed my approach first to robot inspection and now to refereeing.

If you want to talk privately, feel free to message me on Facebook. I just wanted to say this publicly so that you and everyone else knows that the FIRST community in Ontario appreciates you and thinks you've done an awesome job.

magnets

23-03-2014, 20:01

Maybe all you Ontario people are seeing this differently, but what I'm seeing as a remote observer is Ontario losing one of the best emcees in FIRST over how the community is acting.

That's a sad, sad thing to see.

I'm with you completely. Karthik is probably the most influential team mentor I know. He's a member of a Hall of Fame team that also happens to be one of the most competitive, yet helpful, teams I've ever seen. His strategy presentations are watched by our team members each year, and are always referenced during brainstorming. It's a terrible shame that, IMO, the best MC in FIRST feels that he needs to step down because of how the community is reacting.

Abhishek R

23-03-2014, 20:04

Karthik, I hope you reconsider.

I wasn't in Waterloo. Everything I've heard about it came nth-hand, so I don't know what exactly went on, but I do know that both you and John have done a tremendous amount of work to make FIRST grow and thrive in Ontario. I have great respect for both of you. I sincerely hope that whatever the issues are between you, they can be resolved.

You've done an amazing job as an MC. Your energy and passion are contagious, and I know that you've had a huge positive impact on countless kids.

I agree. I wouldn't let this one incident/regional/season hang over you, 1114 is and will still continue to perform as they always do all the way through Champs and afterwards.

FIRST_Parent

23-03-2014, 20:13

Actually, I'm not. I'm a proud member of Team 1114 and merely a FIRST volunteer. John on the other hand is a FIRST Regional Director and is held to a much higher standard.

When I'm MCing, part of my job is to be as unbiased as possible. I'd like to think I've done that for the past 10 years. But I guess I'm not doing a good enough job. That's why I made the decision yesterday to never MC again in Ontario. I'm sure this will make your team very happy; whichever anonymous team that is.

I stand firmly by my original comment.

I'm sorry to disappoint both of you and your anonymous teams. If these students looked up to me, I would hope it was because of my passion, my fire, and my unwavering belief that people should stand up against hypocrisy and for what they believe in. To any of those I let down, I do apologize. It was never my intent to disappoint you. I'm sorry.

This is a sad day for First Robotics in Ontario, and First for the entire organization, if you hold true to this decision. Karthik, you have been the focal point and visual point of First in Canada, not only as a solid mentor of 1114, but as a spot light in Ontario Regional competitions as an extraordinary emcee and amazing knowledgeable presence. I know for a fact that you have "inspired" and "encouraged" countless young First enthusiast's (my son included) to go beyond the gracious professionalism that First encourages. Don't let this one criticism stop you from what you have been doing for the past countless years you have dedicated to becoming the "Karthik" we all know and expect, and love. Everyone, and I do mean everyone is entitled to an opinion, good, bad, or indifferent. I would whole heartedly ask you to reconsider your decision not to represent First as an extraordinary representative of First.

FIRST_Parent.

Yipyapper

23-03-2014, 20:23

I'm with you completely. Karthik is probably the most influential team mentor I know. He's a member of a Hall of Fame team that also happens to be one of the most competitive, yet helpful, teams I've ever seen. His strategy presentations are watched by our team members each year, and are always referenced during brainstorming. It's a terrible shame that, IMO, the best MC in FIRST feels that he needs to step down because of how the community is reacting.

That and he was a Woodie Flowers finalist in 2005(?) or some year around there. Just more fuel to showcase his influence as a team mentor and a valuable member of the FIRST community.

Andy Grady

23-03-2014, 20:25

As an outsider - that's terrible, Ontario is losing a great emcee with this. Your user tag "achievement through enthusiasm;" you and 1114 do both of those things very well and its a shame things like this have to happen.

I'm sure NEFIRST would love to have you, if you want to continue emceeing and ever venture stateside.

Karthik,

I hope you think long and hard about not emceeing and reconsider. I've always said you are one of the best emcees in the game, and that hasn't changed. With that said, you are welcome to come visit New England anytime...I'd love to team up with you.

I bring two points....

1. There have been a rash of posts from anonymous people from anonymous teams on these boards lately. This is neither in the spirit of FIRST nor the spirit of the community which so many of us have worked so hard to build. I may say some idiotic things on these boards or in person from time to time, but I say them representing myself and I hide behind nothing. If you have something to say, own up to it. FIRST is about inspiration, not dismantling the character of other people.

2. Game wise, I hope FIRST reconsiders the point values for fouls and TF's before championships. 50 points its too much in the first place, let lone for a foul that resulted in the incidental breaking of a rule due to something beyond a team's control.

That's all I've got....looks like the event was a wild one. I hope that despite the controversy, all parties involved had a great time.

Woolly

23-03-2014, 20:31

I expect that going 20" outside your frame perimeter as a result of damage to your robot will no longer be a penalty as of this Tuesday. Kind of like how the rules were changed the Tuesday after 4522 lost Arkansas due to breaking the plane of the 1 point goal.

Luckily for 1114, they still get to go to St.Louis because they're a hall of fame team. This is because they've proven themselves to work hard towards achieving the goals of FIRST.

Unfortunately, 4039, 4907, 4522, 4090, and 2992 don't get that same luxury. 4039 gets another chance to qualify in New York City, where I wish them the best of luck. 4522, after the heart-breaker in Arkansas got knocked out in the Semis at KC and as of right now aren't signed up for any more regionals, which means a great robot probably won't be making the trip to St.Louis next month.

As far as tempers and emotions go, it's the nature of the "C" part of FRC.

CLandrum3081

23-03-2014, 20:33

Apparently I can't give anymore reputation to Karthik, so I'll actually have to post instead (what a shame, isn't it?).

Maybe all you Ontario people are seeing this differently, but what I'm seeing as a remote observer is Ontario losing one of the best emcees in FIRST over how the community is acting.

That's a sad, sad thing to see.

Karthik: if you aren't going to be emceeing in Ontario again, feel free to come on over to Minnesota some time. We'd love to have you and your enthusiasm.

+1.

I think we all need to cool down a bit. With all the fun (trust me, this season is still fun, even if its fun quotient is smaller than other years), this year has been frustrating. Week 1 is almost a different game from Week 4, and it won't surprise me if Championships is an ACTUAL dog-and-pony show. 1114 has been victim to two subjective rules that would have been called differently in different regionals, and called without common sense (from my MN vantage point).

I think we expect far too much from anyone from a Hall of Fame team or with a beautiful green reputation bar. We can look up to these people (believe me, I do), but we need to remember we're human. I wouldn't want to be remembered for my immature reaction to the outcome a qualifying match that directly affected our ranking (we lost by three points, and there were three things the referees "didn't see" including the pedestal not lighting up for twenty seconds). Karthik's reaction was honest and mature, and sometimes, that's not easy to take, even when we disagree with it. I wish I could handle disappointment with that much maturity while still managing to express it. We're all human, and HoF teams are made of humans. We should respect each other as such.

I think we need to take a step back. Just because we feel like we're being preyed on by invisible GDC vultures sometimes doesn't give us the right to do the same to others. Open disagreement is fine, but please be mature about it (yes, I realize how hypocritical that sounds when I admit I can be immature, but at least I try not to be). And don't hide behind a puppet account to do it. If you don't want people to know you said something, maybe you shouldn't say it (rare circumstances make anonymity reasonable, but this doesn't).

100% agreed, cadandcookies. Karthik should consider trying MN, though the circumstances causing his departure from MC-ing Ontario would make me less than happy about it. We don't bite, and the cold is somewhat more tolerable. :p

Citrus Dad

23-03-2014, 20:47

While I agree Karthik's comment was a bit off-colour, I don't think making that accusation while hiding behind a sock puppet account serves anyone.

I'm fairly certain that his overreaction is nothing more than an artifact of his passion for this program and frustration at watching his team be eliminated from two events by a foul resulting in him getting a bit carried away.

It appears that you're revealing as much information at RobotParent. Hmmmm.

More importantly, it is not easy participating on Chief Delphi--it is not user friendly. I recently spent 15 minutes trying to figure out how to change my user settings (and I've been working on computers since 1985). Asking a parent who may not be as familiar with various Internet forums in general and Chief Delphi in particular is too harsh. More often than not it's not that someone is trying to hide here, but rather it's too difficult to figure how to reveal themselves. Please withhold your judgement.

pluto7443

23-03-2014, 20:47

Kpchem

23-03-2014, 20:53

Another thing I was wondering about in the rules: would a shot that went over the truss and into a low goal count as an 11 point shot?

No, because of Rule 3.1.4 in the manual

2014 Game Manual - Rule 3.1.4

A BALL is considered SCORED in an ALLIANCE’S GOAL if

A. a ROBOT causes one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S BALLS to cross completely and remain completely through the opening(s) of one (1) of their ALLIANCE’S GOALS without intervening TEAM member contact
B. the ALLIANCE ROBOT last in contact with the BALL was entirely between the TRUSS and their ALLIANCE’S HIGH GOALS, and
C. the BALL is not in contact with any ROBOT from that ALLIANCE.

Emphasis mine. If you are making a valid truss shot, your robot is not entirely between the truss and your alliance's high goals.

Good luck at Windsor and Championship!

PayneTrain

23-03-2014, 20:57

Glad to see we are all still playing nice in Ontario.

AdamHeard

23-03-2014, 21:04

I'm sorry to disappoint both of you and your anonymous teams. If these students looked up to me, I would hope it was because of my passion, my fire, and my unwavering belief that people should stand up against hypocrisy and for what they believe in. To any of those I let down, I do apologize. It was never my intent to disappoint you. I'm sorry.

I can respect someone who is willing to make statements that might upset others publicly with their full name and reputation behind it. You've got my support.

Bochek

23-03-2014, 21:26

While I don't wish to comment on the last few pages of this thread, I did get a few minutes to start running the GoPro footage from the event through handbrake.

Because its the most viewed video of the week, I did Semi Final 1-3 first, you can view it here. (http://watchfirstnow.com/archives/89874438)

The rest will be available in the next day or so.

nuclearnerd

23-03-2014, 21:28

Luckily for 1114, they still get to go to St.Louis because they're a hall of fame team...Unfortunately, 4039, 4907, 4522, 4090, and 2992 don't get that same luxury.

4039 would have earned (at least) the wild card to World's had the match not been overturned. I'm still proud of the team's #1 seed, but it is disappointing after playing so well during quals.

OTOH, Team 3583 got the wildcard instead, and they're deserving too - a really great team and bot.

Racer26

23-03-2014, 22:21

It appears that you're revealing as much information at RobotParent. Hmmmm.

More importantly, it is not easy participating on Chief Delphi--it is not user friendly. I recently spent 15 minutes trying to figure out how to change my user settings (and I've been working on computers since 1985). Asking a parent who may not be as familiar with various Internet forums in general and Chief Delphi in particular is too harsh. More often than not it's not that someone is trying to hide here, but rather it's too difficult to figure how to reveal themselves. Please withhold your judgement.

My profile shows no team affiliation because I currently don't have one. As you can see from my post count, rookie year, and reputation bar, I'm no sock puppet.

I was on a team earlier in the 2014 season, but due to a post I made in frustration a few weeks ago, not unlike Karthik's post, I'm no longer working with them.

LeelandS

23-03-2014, 22:23

Goodness gracious. It's incredible how harshly people judge your words when you're a "celebrity". I wish I could say I have a place to speak on this matter, as it seems very pressing, but I was neither at nor do I have a vested interest in the results of Waterloo, amazing regional it was.

That said, I do find the backlash at Karthik for him posting his personal views about Waterloo absolutely disgusting. First of all, if any person in all of FIRST Canada should be allowed to express frustration, I would vote Karthik. Karthik, a man who dedicates countless hours to helping build FIRST Canada as a whole, as well as being a mentor of a team who has served as inspiration for teams worldwide for years. The fact that Karthik often does not express his feelings on these things publicly is just a testament to the kind of man he is.

Secondly, Karthik is a human being, just like every single one of us, and his views are his own. There is no expectation of Karthik to be unbiased; he very proudly represents himself as a part of 1114 and if you've ever actually worked with him at competition (which is rare, considering all the work he does Emceeing), you can tell he takes the competition of our organization very seriously. So for 1114 to be brought down in the manner they were, it's natural for him to feel frustrated; every other one of us would be. And guess what? He is absolutely entitled to, A) Have those feelings and B) Express them as he sees fit. As a matter of fact, I'd bet Karthik's expressions were more well-mannered and respectful than 90% of any of our's would be.

At the end of the day, Karthik is still a great role model. Hands down. He is a dedicated, professional participant in our program. I wish I could be more like him. And I'm a mentor; most students would find Karthik an even greater inspiration. Let me tell you, this guy is what FIRST is about. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know him.

I know Karthik doesn't need defending or justification for his statements. While he cares a great deal for the FIRST Community, he is steadfast in his views and I would bet the naysayers aren't getting to him at all. I am defending him because I believe Karthik has every right to what he is feeling and has no reason to be judged because he is expressing his frustration.

On an unrelated note. Karthik's decision to no longer emcee in Ontario is very heartbreaking, coming from a non-Canadian FRC Participant. He's been in the spotlight for so long now; that said, it's a great opportunity for a new emcee to step up. I look forward to seeing their work.

On an unrelated unrelated note. Rochester is a lovely non-Ontario city to emcee in. Just saying.

dodar

23-03-2014, 22:26

On an unrelated unrelated note. Rochester is a lovely non-Ontario city to emcee in. Just saying.

Orlando is a tad bit warmer that week of the year. :p

Woolly

23-03-2014, 22:38

Orlando is a tad bit warmer that week of the year. :p

Kansas City has barbecue.

dodar

23-03-2014, 22:41

Kansas City has barbecue.

....we do too.....lol KC is alot more known for it than Orlando though.

stefanp

23-03-2014, 23:07

Billfred

23-03-2014, 23:30

This was one of the greatest regionals to watch live... Everything was just amazing about the competition. The caliber of play was amazing, the MCing was extraordinary, the field reset crew was SO fast, the audience was great! Just watching this regional inspired me to try to get my team to this same caliber. It was amazing recognizing so many teams and people that you saw in videos at this regional. A shame fouls had such a large impact on eliminations and there were some technical problems in the last match of the finals.

Watching this regional as a rookie makes you want to come here next year and compete with the best of teams. Also three ball hot goal auto by the poofs was something else to watch in real life.

I'm going to underscore this here. A positive first-ever regional experience--Palmetto 2004--is one of the things that got me hooked on FRC way back as a student on 1293. Even when I've been with veteran teams, well-run events have had newbie students rearranging plans to attend the next event of the season.

Waterloo's pre-event hype had me plugging my laptop into my TV for the first time for elimination rounds, but as I watched the whole of the event I saw what really looked like a well-operating machine, reset to announcing fouls. No matter how one feels about the game or what transpired, Waterloo came across as running a tight ship.

Best of luck in North Bay!

Zebra_Fact_Man

24-03-2014, 01:31

I suppose if I had to choose the lesser of two (three) evils, I'd rather have a) a game where penalties are called correctly that I disagree with than b) penalties are called incorrectly, or c) FMS flips individual teams the bird, like in 2012.

Unfortunately, some of the latter two points have also been happening this year too, though, with lessening frequency as of late.

Grim Tuesday

24-03-2014, 02:28

On an unrelated unrelated note. Rochester is a lovely non-Ontario city to emcee in. Just saying.

In my first FLR, Steve did an excellent job Emceeing. I'd love to see a switcheroo and have some Canada back in Rochester! Karthik+JonDarr is my dream team, with maybe a bit of Angry Eric mixed in, he has only been getting better and better!

fox46

24-03-2014, 10:28

The self-righteous trolls of CD strike again.

I must applaud you; you people who art more gracious than me. It takes a certain kind of person to stand up on a soapbox and berate someone who has done so much good in this community for expressing their thoughts and for this I am truly in awe of you.

I have seen many people on this site be pulled apart by these most gracious trolls. You berate someone for posting something negative or that deviates from the norm about something or other. It's become so bad here that it's nearly impossible to post any kind of criticism on this forum. You have driven away so many knowledgeable and educated people and are slowly watering this place down to nothing more than a pink fuzzy spot on the internet to post your robot pictures and pat each other on the back.

It is impossible to live life by ignoring every distasteful situation or negative occurrence. It's just not possible. To try and do so is to look at the world with blinders on. The fact that you're still trying to protect your children from this fact of life is just bad parenting. They need to know that not everyone thinks the same way they do and not everything is happy and good. In life, people have opinions. Good or bad, their thoughts are their own and it is NONE of your business to slap their hand and tell them otherwise. CD is supposed to be a place for these discussions. Squelching anything that doesn't agree with the general consensus should be unacceptable. It is important to have other ways of looking at things and have an open mind and acknowledge the situations that might not be all rainbows and butterflies.

Karthik- I understand your decisions and although I'm going to miss your awesome introductions, I support you in whatever your choices may be. We will always have a spare hat for you!