View Full Version : Use of radios for communication
themick07
15-03-2014, 11:01
Are we allowed to use radios for communication from the pit to the stands?
engunneer
15-03-2014, 11:06
They have been banned in the past, but I don't see a specific rule this year. Why not cell phones?
themick07
15-03-2014, 11:07
They have been banned in the past, but I don't see a specific rule this year. Why not cell phones?
Terrible signal. We are in The Wolstein Center in Cleveland. A college basketball court.
ayeckley
15-03-2014, 12:17
A college Faraday cage.
Fixed that for you.
Al Skierkiewicz
15-03-2014, 12:47
Check in the "At the Event" rules.
4.15 SITE RESTRICTIONS
Please read the following common site restrictions and adhere to them in order to promote an orderly, safe, pleasant
and exciting competition. Please refer to Administrative Manual - Section 4.2 FIRST Safety for additional site
restrictions at your event.
Do not use walkie-talkies.
Just adding to the following post.
Chris_Ely
15-03-2014, 12:57
From the Admin. manual:
Do not use walkie-talkies.
goofy173
19-03-2014, 15:01
So cell phones with push-to-talk would be exactly the same as a walkie talkie and therefore banned. How would they know?
Joe Ross
19-03-2014, 15:33
So cell phones with push-to-talk would be exactly the same as a walkie talkie and therefore banned. How would they know?
I suspect that the rule isn't intended to ban the function of the walkie-talkie, but rather the implementation. FIRST uses multiple sets of radios for communication between volunteers, which I suspect they do not want to be interfered with. Cell phone push-to-talk does not operate in the personal radio frequency range.
Hotspots using cell phones and similar technology creates interference too! PLEASE PLEASE do not mess our robots! Get pigeons if you can but no walkie-talkie!
Doesn't say anything about ham radios. I don't see what the issue would be about interference, as those and walkie-talkies do not operate on the same bands as wifi.
Doesn't say anything about ham radios. I don't see what the issue would be about interference, as those and walkie-talkies do not operate on the same bands as wifi.
Event managers and key volunteers use radios to communicate across the competition venues.
As has been said already, it's in the manual not to use them. So don't.
Al Skierkiewicz
23-03-2014, 13:28
While it would seem that this is an RF interference issue, that is not all. It is part of the "leveling the playing field" issue. Any item that could give a team an advantage over other teams that is not specifically allowed in the rules, is likewise banned. That is why you can't use a bigger battery or motors not listed.
And by the way, you don't have to be on the same frequency to produce interference. Ask me about this sometime. It is a very complex subject.
JCharlton
23-03-2014, 14:54
Hotspots using cell phones and similar technology creates interference too! PLEASE PLEASE do not mess our robots! Get pigeons if you can but no walkie-talkie!
I think pigeons might mess with the robots too.
RallyJeff
23-03-2014, 15:22
Doesn't say anything about ham radios. I don't see what the issue would be about interference, as those and walkie-talkies do not operate on the same bands as wifi.
There are walkie-talkie style ham radios, which is what anyone at an FRC event would probably be using - I hope nobody's considering setting up a base station in their pit.
Depending on the power output of a ham radio, its distance from other devices, and the extent of the RF shielding/protection in those devices, a ham radio can most certainly cause interference in other devices on different bands... and even on sensitive electronics generally.
Teams aren't supposed to use them but I have seen quite a few teams with them. So who do we report this to?
donkehote
23-03-2014, 16:17
It is part of the "leveling the playing field" issue. Any item that could give a team an advantage over other teams that is not specifically allowed in the rules, is likewise banned.
I dont want to derail the thread but,
Since practice bots provide a significant, undeniable advantage, shouldn't they be banned by the same logic, as part of "Leveling the playing field"?
-Puts on suit of armor and runs away- :D
Edit- To clarify, I mean practice bots overall, not bringing them to competition, Im fully aware the are illegal in the pits.
Teams aren't supposed to use them but I have seen quite a few teams with them. So who do we report this to?
Regional Director or FTA would work. They then get the "fun" of telling the team to put the radios away.
pyroslev
23-03-2014, 20:28
If you want to still use PTT method, Voxer is a good app. Uses Data on your cellphone. I use it when I wanna have a short conversation beyond texting but without calling. There is also bluetooth integration as well.
Warnings:
Careful about when you use it. If you are using it for stand to field comms in alliance selection, possibly legal. During match play at a off-season event, one team communicating from stands to field non-electronically was given a yellow card. So be smart on that front. Read the manual and ask the staff at your event before you use it. When it comes to bluetooth earsets, I encourage teams to take them out if they're on the field.
The app can eat battery power. Between that and my FRC Spyder App, my battery hated me by noon. Also the default ringtone is extremely quiet. That makes it hard to hear.
GroupMe is also a very good app for getting quick info and requests in between stands and pit, especially if whoever you want to contact doesn't immediately have their phone out - someone always does and is able to relay the information. It isn't voice, though, only text, but proved very useful this season nonetheless.
Terrible signal. We are in The Wolstein Center in Cleveland. ...
Unfortunately, this is SO true.
Alan Anderson
23-03-2014, 22:06
Since practice bots provide a significant, undeniable advantage, shouldn't they be banned by the same logic, as part of "Leveling the playing field"?
It is illegal to bring a practice robot to a regional competition.
There are walkie-talkie style ham radios, which is what anyone at an FRC event would probably be using - I hope nobody's considering setting up a base station in their pit.
Depending on the power output of a ham radio, its distance from other devices, and the extent of the RF shielding/protection in those devices, a ham radio can most certainly cause interference in other devices on different bands... and even on sensitive electronics generally.
Let's take advantage of this phenomenon!
Mic->Rasberry Pi->Pirate Radio on a US FM band (Repeat for each person)
People only need an FM radio to tune in- Outreach! Just leave a station near the doors outside and set the RasPi FM band to NPR or something- nothing can go wrong!
(Bonus: I'm pretty sure it even violates FCC rules, so you can can get the opportunity to enlighten lots of important people about FIRST)
BBray_T1296
26-03-2014, 23:40
On the topic of pigeons, I have yet to find any rule banning them from use on a FRC robot.
I am still waiting for this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbZB6rNLZ4) concept to be transferred to robots. A pigeon can identify a red ball, right? that is all you need (well, a blue ball pecking pigeon as well)
Teams aren't supposed to use them but I have seen quite a few teams with them. So who do we report this to?
If you see a team using radios to communicate, go to the Regional Director or Event Coordinator (In Districts, there is no RD to speak of, but there are local event leads). It is (as has been outlined already) against the "At the Event" rules (Section 4 of the manual) and it's on the event to speak to the team and inform them of said rule violation.
On the topic of pigeons, I have yet to find any rule banning them from use on a FRC robot.
I am still waiting for this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbZB6rNLZ4) concept to be transferred to robots. A pigeon can identify a red ball, right? that is all you need (well, a blue ball pecking pigeon as well)
R34 disallows pigeons on the ROBOT, as it a non-electrical source of energy that is not one of the 3 allowed (compressed air, change in CoG, deformation of robot parts).
R34 disallows pigeons on the ROBOT, as it a non-electrical source of energy that is not one of the 3 allowed (compressed air, change in CoG, deformation of robot parts).
Also, I'd like to (and I think Big Al would like to as well) meet an inspector who thinks a pigeon is safe under R8.
Al Skierkiewicz
30-03-2014, 22:41
I was thinking it was more likely to come under the "contaminating the field" rules. In Chicago there is a local ordinace to prevent feeding the pigeons.
Solidstate89
31-03-2014, 12:31
Hotspots using cell phones and similar technology creates interference too! PLEASE PLEASE do not mess our robots! Get pigeons if you can but no walkie-talkie!
They don't operate on even remotely the same frequency. There would be little to no interference between the WiFi that the robots use (I believe they operate on the 5Ghz channel) and the frequency that any cell phone would use over its cellular connection that can range anywhere from 700-800Mhz, to as high as 1700Mhz or even 2100Mhz - all depending on your carrier.
This if of course, assuming proper shielding was used in the cell phones and hotspots to reduce RF leakage.
Al Skierkiewicz
31-03-2014, 12:56
They don't operate on even remotely the same frequency. There would be little to no interference between the WiFi that the robots use (I believe they operate on the 5Ghz channel) and the frequency that any cell phone would use over its cellular connection that can range anywhere from 700-800Mhz, to as high as 1700Mhz or even 2100Mhz - all depending on your carrier.
This if of course, assuming proper shielding was used in the cell phones and hotspots to reduce RF leakage.
Sorry, Solid, That is not the way interference works. The third harmonic of 1700 MHz is right in the band. All it needs is a non-linear mixer and voila, interference. Loose aluminum hardware makes a great non-linear mixer. High power RF mixing in the input to a receiver can also produce the same effect. 800 + 2*2100 also comes out on a frequency that can interfere.
Solidstate89
31-03-2014, 14:29
Sorry, Solid, That is not the way interference works. The third harmonic of 1700 MHz is right in the band. All it needs is a non-linear mixer and voila, interference. Loose aluminum hardware makes a great non-linear mixer. High power RF mixing in the input to a receiver can also produce the same effect. 800 + 2*2100 also comes out on a frequency that can interfere.
*nods*
Good to know.
DanielPlotas
31-03-2014, 14:40
R34 disallows pigeons on the ROBOT, as it a non-electrical source of energy that is not one of the 3 allowed (compressed air, change in CoG, deformation of robot parts).
but you can have an additional power source if it is a component of something (like a laptop), and since the pigeons energy is stored inside it, it would be legal.
but you can have an additional power source if it is a component of something (like a laptop), and since the pigeons energy is stored inside it, it would be legal.
You do know the rule about disabling wireless communications on the laptop? Most pigeons perform better wireless.
ayeckley
31-03-2014, 17:08
but you can have an additional power source if it is a component of something (like a laptop), and since the pigeons energy is stored inside it, it would be legal.
This introduces a whole new set of questions that aren't addressed in the Game Manual: Doesn't this require that all pigeons "arrive having eaten"? How will inspectors be verifying this condition, as most pigeons won't give you an honest answer even when asked a direct question. Is it considered an unfair advantage to keep pigeons in the team trailer, or must they be included in the 45lb withholding allowance and brought in at the start of the event (they are for all intents and purposes a COTS item after all). I'm pretty sure a modified pigeon would be considered a safety hazard in the same sense that pneumatic components cannot be modified (but obviously we'd need an official Q&A ruling to be certain). If a team bagged their pigeon(s), can they then be fed once the inspector signs off on their lock up form? And on a related thought, how are non-functional pigeons to be disposed of safely at the event?
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