Silicon Valley Regional 2014

[Reanna]

I've been waiting for Andrew to make a thread but he's taking too long so here it is.

The teams in attendance are:
8
100
114
115
192
254*
256
295
368*
581
604
668
670
692
751
766*
840
841
846*
852
971*
1072
1280
1323
1351
1388
1662
1678*
1700
1868
1967
2035
2135*
2141
2144
2367
2473
2489
2813
2854
3045
3256*
3482
3669
4047
4171
4186
4255
4543
4765
4904
4990
5023
5026
5027
5194
5171
5210
5311

A * indicates that this team creates a wildcard.
Match schedule: http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/Eve...eduleQual.html

[aditya29]

Is 1678 going to be running the webcast this weekend?

[Anteprefix]

Is 1678 going to be running the webcast this weekend?
No, we are taking a much needed break. I believe a different team is hosting the webcast. If I recall correctly it should be on the blue alliance already.

[DampRobot]

No, we are taking a much needed break. I believe a different team is hosting the webcast. If I recall correctly it should be on the blue alliance already.

604 maybe? They did it last year.

[Chinmay]

Quals match #47 is gonna be fun :)

[kevincrispie]

Quals match #47 is gonna be fun :)

Definitely. Here's the full match schedule:

http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/Events/casj/ScheduleQual.html

[Answer42]

Quals match #47 is gonna be fun :)


No kidding. If any match is gonna kill 971's undefeated streak it would be that one.

[MrTechCenter]

Quals match #47 is gonna be fun :)

I'm excited to see how 971 and 1323 work together, seeing as how they both have very similar robots. I wish there was a match with 971, 1323, and 100 on the same alliance.

[DampRobot]

I wish there was a match with 971, 1323, and 100 on the same alliance.

We do too.

[kmehta]

604 maybe? They did it last year.

Yup, 604 & TBA will be doing the webcast. We plan to be uploading match videos instantaneously to YouTube, just like CVR.

[Chinmay]

Yup, 604 & TBA will be doing the webcast. We plan to be uploading match videos instantaneously to YouTube, just like CVR.

You guys awe awesome. Thanks! Best of luck today

[Nuttyman54]

Yup, 604 & TBA will be doing the webcast. We plan to be uploading match videos instantaneously to YouTube, just like CVR.

What Youtube channel is it getting uploaded to?

It appears that the FMS is not posting to USFIRST properly, so twitter is the only source of match data...

EDIT: Nevermind, video links are posted on TBA...duh.

[Doug G]

How are folks getting standings for SVR? Can't seem to get them off of FIRST page or TBA.

[Reanna]

How are folks getting standings for SVR? Can't seem to get them off of FIRST page or TBA.

The screen in the pits keeping teams updated. I heard a rumor that SJSU's wifi is blocking something, but that's just a rumor as far as I know. Here are the rankings from after match 69 (which are already out of date):

http://i59.tinypic.com/2isxth3.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/90znmv.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/qytslz.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/r6wx7m.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/2vx17jo.jpg

I'll upload updates pictures after the last match today.


Also, teams please take your drive team and/or team picture in front of the FIRST photo wall to be featured on cafirst.org! We'd like to get every single team's picture!

[Cory]

My understanding is that the SJSU Internet blocks the port used to connect to FIRST's FTP.

[Nuttyman54]

My understanding is that the SJSU Internet blocks the port used to connect to FIRST's FTP.

Is that new this year? Or did FIRST change something with the FTP protocol/port? I don't recall SVR having this problem before, but I've also seen more issues with the FTP this year than I can ever remember.

[aditya29]

Rankings/Match results look to be live on the website now.

[Anteprefix]

The rankings and results are finally up! Tracker, Spyder and other related apps should work now.

[Cory]

The rankings and results are finally up! Tracker, Spyder and other related apps should work now.

My guess is this is a manual upload at the end of the day and that people should not expect it to be refreshing tomorrow.

[Anteprefix]

My guess is this is a manual upload at the end of the day and that people should not expect it to be refreshing tomorrow.

I think it might actually be working now. The update occurred before match 79, but match 79 data is visible.

[aditya29]

My guess is this is a manual upload at the end of the day and that people should not expect it to be refreshing tomorrow.

I think they actually got it working - I scripted it to email me when the page went live, and I got that update at 5:42PM; I think match 75 or 76 was playing then? I checked after each of the last few matches and the rankings & scores seemed to be updating immediately, so I doubt someone was manually doing that after each of the last few matches.

[Cory]

I think it might actually be working now. The update occurred before match 79, but match 79 data is visible.

Yep word is it's been bypassed with a hot spot and will be live tomorrow.

[Answer42]

Is 368 running a swerve drive? They certainly look to have some kind of fancy drivetrain going on.

[z_beeblebrox]

Is 368 running a swerve drive? They certainly look to have some kind of fancy drivetrain going on.
Yes. There's a thread about their robot with more details.

[Jscout11]

Is 368 running a swerve drive? They certainly look to have some kind of fancy drivetrain going on.

Yes. 368 is running a swerve drive this year and their drivers were impeccable last week in Hawaii.

[AdamHeard]

Head ref is not a reasonable or intelligent person.

1323 asked for timeout. Accidentally turned in backup card. Head said 1323 must sub out.

[MrTechCenter]

Head ref is not a reasonable or intelligent person.

1323 asked for timeout. Accidentally turned in backup card. Head said 1323 must sub out.

I was wondering why MadTown called for a backup. This is very surprising to me. Mark is one of the most reasonable and fair head refs there is.

[Navid Shafa]

If that was true...
I was wondering why MadTown called for a backup. This is very surprising to me. Mark was one of the most reasonable and fair head refs there is.

What a crappy way to go out.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Every single person on the red alliance asked for 1323 to stay in.

[JV2073]

I agree with Adam. The Head Ref should have been reasonable. If everyone on the red alliance was okay with 1323 (madtown) I don't see a problem.

[Chinmay]

Every single person on the red alliance asked for 1323 to stay in.

I dont even know what to think about the decision, its absurd... im curious to know if theres a precedent for a team messing up like this and getting penalized so severely...

Thank you for trying to keep them in the game. I respect all of the teams on red a lot, and really appreciate your attempts at trying to help give madtown a break.

Edit: this is apparently what they look like http://imgur.com/iHFx9gU so not the easiest thing to mess up, but im sure it is hard to keep track of them when robots are having problems and students are stressed.

[Karthik]

1323 asked for timeout. Accidentally turned in backup card. Head said 1323 must sub out.

This is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a long time. I'm flabbergasted.

[z_beeblebrox]

I've heard about a lot of controversial referee decisions, but this is the only one I can remember that I find completely unreasonable and unjustifiable.

[wilsonmw04]

something is missing here. There has to be.

[Headphones]

This is really the worst way I've heard of to be eliminated. There is almost certainly more to the story, but it left a bad taste in my mouth.

Props to 254 for trying to bring Madtown's banner up with them to the awards line; that was a classy move.

[Cory]

This was a decision made (Or at least affirmed) by Frank at HQ.

[bduddy]

I was on the field, and this is what I heard. After being given the backup robot coupon, Mark asked which team they wanted to replace, and he firmly believed that he was told that 1323 wanted to replace themselves. He immediately called for the backup team. When 1323 presented themselves and the misunderstanding (or whatever you want to call it) was discovered, he was originally going to allow them to compete, with the loss of their timeout, but after discussion with several people, it was decided that 1323 must be replaced by a backup robot.

As for the red alliance wanting 1323 to stay (which I also saw), I firmly believe that the other team, in any competition, should never be put in a position where they decide if a foul applies or not. Maybe you think it would have helped in this situation, but it only leads to bad thongs down the line. Anyway, this is only my opinion and I have no idea why they were not listened to.

[wilsonmw04]

This was a decision made (Or at least affirmed) by Frank at HQ.

How do you know this? maybe Confirmed?

[David Brinza]

I was on the field, and this is what I heard. After being given the backup robot coupon, Mark asked which team they wanted to replace, and he firmly believed that he was told that 1323 wanted to replace themselves. He immediately called for the backup team. When 1323 presented themselves and the misunderstanding (or whatever you want to call it) was discovered, he was originally going to allow them to compete, with the loss of their timeout, but after discussion with several people, it was decided that 1323 must be replaced by a backup robot.

As for the red alliance wanting 1323 to stay (which I also saw), I firmly believe that the other team, in any competition, should never be but in a position where they decide if a foul applies or not. Maybe you think it would have helped in this situation, but it only leads to bad thongs down the line. Anyway, this is only my opinion and I have no idea why they were not listened to.
Thanks for the explanation.

Good FRC teams don't like to win via factors other than playing better than their opponents. Winning due to technical fouls, red cards, disabled robots, etc. detract from the quality of the victory.

[PayneTrain]

This was a decision made (Or at least affirmed) by Frank at HQ.

http://media.tumblr.com/2d290e5b3c81d506bea469780cd9ba28/tumblr_inline_mt1crkV0XI1rq5f8i.gif

[mhaeberli]

Gracious Professionalism - GP - speaking for myself, in my view, I am certain this was very tough for the team, and for (hypothetically) the individual who chose and handed the wrong coupon to the ref. That said, I'm against ad hominem (that is, personal / individual) attacks on the ref or any volunteer.

[billbo911]

I haven't seen anyone post the rules related to this situation. So, without further comment, let's start there:

T20
If during a TIMEOUT an ALLIANCE CAPTAIN determines that they need to call up a BACKUP TEAM, they must submit their BACKUP TEAM coupon to the Head Referee while there are still at least two (2) minutes remaining on the ARENA Timer. After that point, they will not be allowed to utilize the BACKUP TEAM.

Alternatively, an ALLIANCE CAPTAIN may choose to call up a BACKUP TEAM without using their TIMEOUT by informing the Head Referee directly within two (2) minutes of the Head Referee issuing the ARENA reset signal preceding their MATCH.

In the case where the ALLIANCE CAPTAIN’S ROBOT is replaced by a BACKUP TEAM, the ALLIANCE CAPTAIN is allowed in the ALLIANCE STATION as a thirteenth ALLIANCE member so they can serve in an advisory role to their ALLIANCE.

The BOLD and BOLD UNDERLINE are mine.

Now for my comments based entirely on my opinion. I watched the webcast and was not in attendance. I know Mark and must admit, I trust his judgement whether I agree with it or not.

Based on the quoted rule, I believe Mark had no choice, he had to make the call that he did. No where in the rule does it say that the Captain needs to verbally request a substitute. It is based entirely on the coupon presented. As to which team needs to be replaced, that must be a verbal communication. So, obviously we are missing some information as to why Madtown was substituted out. I can only assume it was due to a verbal communication error. Again, that is my assumption based on comments in this thread.

[Andrew Lawrence]

How do you know this? maybe Confirmed?

It was announced before the match.

[bduddy]

It was announced before the match.I don't remember any public annoucements being made, other than one that 1323 had been replaced.

I did hear on the sidelines that calls had been made to FIRST HQ.

[thefro526]

Based on the quoted rule, I believe Mark had no choice, he had to make the call that he did. No where in the rule does it say that the Captain needs to verbally request a substitute. It is based entirely on the coupon presented. As to which team needs to be replaced, that must be a verbal communication. So, obviously we are missing some information as to why Madtown was substituted out. I can only assume it was due to a verbal communication error. Again, that is my assumption based on comments in this thread.

I believe the head ref in this case had a choice to make, even though the rules as stated say that if a team hands in a backup coupon, the backup robot will be brought in.

The Head Referee has the ultimate authority in the ARENA during the event, but may receive input from additional sources, e.g. Game Designers, FIRST personnel, and technical staff. The Head Referee rulings are final. The Head Referee will not review recorded replays under any circumstances.

According to this verbiage, the head ref has the power to make whatever call he sees fit after receiving input and reviewing the rules. Yes, the rules state that if a team turns in a backup coupon, you will receive a backup team - but if a kid mistakenly hands the ref the wrong coupon, realizes the mistake and is willing to forfeit the correct coupon (and time out) for the situation, does it hurt to vary from the rules in this instance? If the other alliance is in favor of this variation from the rules, does it hurt anyone?

I guess if anything, there needs to be a clause added to the manual that states something along the lines of 'after receipt of an alliances back-up coupon, and a verbal confirmation that this is the coupon they desire to use, a backup team will be brought in for this alliance.'

[DampRobot]

This is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a long time. I'm flabbergasted.

We all were too. It hurt to see such a classy team be eliminated by such a ridiculous decision.

[Akash Rastogi]

Props to 254 for trying to bring Madtown's banner up with them to the awards line; that was a classy move.

That's the classiest action I've ever heard of.

Disappointing exit for an amazing team.

[seanrobots]

I don't remember any public annoucements being made, other than one that 1323 had been replaced.

I did hear on the sidelines that calls had been made to FIRST HQ.

I personally spoke to Mark about it before the second match and he told me that he called Frank at hq and Frank said based on the situation what decision should be made. I don't know who made the final call but the decision that was made was in line with FIRST hq. Although I may not agree with it, this is how the process was explained to me.

[AdamHeard]

We all were too. It hurt to see such a classy team be eliminated by such a ridiculous decision.

I don't know if classy is the right word ;).... but we love our buddies on 1323.

We were shocked to watch this, and can't imagine having a season ended like that.

1323 is an aggressive and passionate team that has improved annually, I'm sure they will channel this into a great 2015 season.

[seanrobots]

Head ref is not a reasonable or intelligent person.

1323 asked for timeout. Accidentally turned in backup card. Head said 1323 must sub out.

How would you know he is not reasonable or intelligent? Have you been mentored by him for 7 years like me? Has he dropped you off at home because you were stranded after robotics at 11 pm.? Have you won volunteer of the year for FTC? Do you know how much he hated having to make that call?

Mark is the most logical person I know (I know a lot of people) and he was bound by making the correct decision. He explained to me that he doesn't like making tough calls and knows what they mean. He may not make every correct call but I'd like to see you do a better job. I don't agree with the call, but you should realize that you are writing about a hardworking human being, and jumping to conclusions on the basis of being upset.

[MrTechCenter]

How would you know he is not reasonable or intelligent? Have you been mentored by him for 7 years like me? Has he dropped you off at home because you were stranded after robotics at 11 pm.? Have you won volunteer of the year for FTC? Do you know how much he hated having to make that call?

Mark is the most logical person I know (I know a lot of people) and he was bound by making the correct decision. He explained to me that he doesn't like making tough calls and knows what they mean. He may not make every correct call but I'd like to see you do a better job. I don't agree with the call, but you should realize that you are writing about a hardworking human being, and jumping to conclusions on the basis of being upset.

Spoken for truth. Mark is a great ref, and I know personally that he doesn't like to make calls like this, but he is one of the few refs (especially this year) that listens to you when you're in that question box and he'll always explain calls when you ask. Aside from that, he's a great FTC and FRC mentor, and he was well-deserving of the Woodie Flower's award he won at Sac last year. The work that him and Jill have done with Playing at Learning is tremendous and I can't wait to see all the wonderful things that they'll do in the offseason.

[RohitD]

I don't normally post a lot on here, but having read this thread I want to say a couple of things.

Firstly, as Sean said above, Mark is an outstanding member of the FRC community. He has always stood out as a positive role model to our team and others. He has strived to follow gracious professionalism outside the field. Belittling him as a person because of a call where no one currently knows for certain what happened behind the scenes is offensive both to him and to the ideals of FIRST as a whole. We've always turned to him in the past as a great mentor, and the work that he's done for the FIRST community can not be understated.

Secondly, although I was disappointed to see 1323 no longer playing, my understanding was he went to the pits after words and double checked, in addition to all that's been said above. Regardless, in consideration of the fact that no one here really knows what went on behind the scenes, no one has any right to belittle him personally over a call like this. We don't know who made the final decision, nor anything else about this situation.

Mark has always been both a positive role model to members of our team in and out of FRC. No one has the right to belittle his character over a call, especially when no one knows the full details.

[brianbond]

I don't normally post a lot on here, but having read this thread I want to say a couple of things.

Firstly, as Sean said above, Mark is an outstanding member of the FRC community. He has always stood out as a positive role model to our team and others. He has strived to follow gracious professionalism outside the field. Belittling him as a person because of a call where no one currently knows for certain what happened behind the scenes is offensive both to him and to the ideals of FIRST as a whole. We've always turned to him in the past as a great mentor, and the work that he's done for the FIRST community can not be understated.

Secondly, although I was disappointed to see 1323 no longer playing, my understanding was he went to the pits after words and double checked, in addition to all that's been said above. Regardless, in consideration of the fact that no one here really knows what went on behind the scenes, no one has any right to belittle him personally over a call like this. We don't know who made the final decision, nor anything else about this situation.

Mark has always been both a positive role model to members of our team in and out of FRC. No one has the right to belittle his character over a call, especially when no one knows the full details.

I do not want to get crazy involved but what I can say is that Mark did ask 1323 to double check on the whole situation and RC (1323's Lead Mentor) said "No, We are in". I was talking to RC when Mark approached and asked. I believe at that time, RC, and the whole 1323 team was still unaware of the flop in cards given to the Ref as was almost everyone in the pits. There was no announcement in the pits what so ever.
Just wanted to clear that part up as I was 2 feet away from that conversation.

[RohitD]

Just to be clear, if the teams in question were not aware of the flop in the cards, then why would the response be "No, we are in?" That specific phrase seems contradictory with the original lack of knowledge of the card flop. I believe that the current lack of understanding about what actually happened means that no one should be coming to any concrete opinions on it just yet.

[brianbond]

Just to be clear, if the teams in question were not aware of the flop in the cards, then why would the response be "No, we are in?" That specific phrase seems contradictory with the original lack of knowledge of the card flop. I believe that the current lack of understanding about what actually happened means that no one should be coming to any concrete opinions on it just yet.

Regardless, the point that I and others have made is that disagreement with a call is never grounds for a person attack on someone's character. Several of the posts in this thread have been hurtful and offensive to Mark, and I know him well enough to know that he is both the precise opposite of what several people have said, and a role model for me and many others.

Just one last point on that topic. The question asked was. "Are you out?"
And I could tell he was kinda confused on what was being asked but I believe that would be anybody's response if asked that same question. And Im not putting the guy down. Ive talked to him a few times over the years and he seems like a really cool guy. I dont want to bash on anybody. Just would like to clear that conversation up as I was present. This is to hopefully avoid any false rumors.

[Michael Corsetto]

Today, I saw one of the best teams in FIRST crying in their pit when they were forced to sit out of their last match of the 2014 season.

I don't know what else to say... :(

-Mike

[PayneTrain]

Today, I saw one of the best teams in FIRST crying in their pit when they were forced to sit out of their last match of the 2014 season.

I don't know what else to say... :(

-Mike

"Inspiring" definitely isn't the first word you think of.

[Akash Rastogi]

How would you know he is not reasonable or intelligent? Have you been mentored by him for 7 years like me? Has he dropped you off at home because you were stranded after robotics at 11 pm.? Have you won volunteer of the year for FTC? Do you know how much he hated having to make that call?

Mark is the most logical person I know (I know a lot of people) and he was bound by making the correct decision. He explained to me that he doesn't like making tough calls and knows what they mean. He may not make every correct call but I'd like to see you do a better job. I don't agree with the call, but you should realize that you are writing about a hardworking human being, and jumping to conclusions on the basis of being upset.

While I don't think there is any place for calling this person unintelligent, I can see why several people would say it is unreasonable. To me, this is not really a tough decision to make. A team made a simple mistake, it seems (still waiting for a full story), and the sub-in issue could have been avoided. Doesn't really seem like a tough call to make. +0.02

[seanrobots]

While I don't think there is any place for calling this person unintelligent, I can see why several people would say it is unreasonable. To me, this is not really a tough decision to make. A team made a simple mistake, it seems (still waiting for a full story), and the sub-in issue could have been avoided. Doesn't really seem like a tough call to make. +0.02

Yeah, I understand what you're saying and agree it should've been fixed. I was referring to Adam calling Mark unreasonable, not the call.

[DampRobot]

I do not want to get crazy involved but what I can say is that Mark did ask 1323 to double check on the whole situation and RC (1323's Lead Mentor) said "No, We are in". I was talking to RC when Mark approached and asked. I believe at that time, RC, and the whole 1323 team was still unaware of the flop in cards given to the Ref as was almost everyone in the pits. There was no announcement in the pits what so ever.

Just wanted to clear that part up as I was 2 feet away from that conversation.

This is the version of events as I understand it too. I also know Manchester was involved, and I believe Frank was the one that made the final call.

While I like Mark personally, and believe he has generally done an excellent job as a referee, I agree with Akash. This should have not been a hard call to make. Giving the field crew the wrong card was an honest mistake, and the field crew was told that 1323 wanted to remain in. Why were they not allowed to correct an honest heat of the moment mistake? If the backup robot card was really "irrevocable," why did the field crew insist that 1323 be subbed out, despite the fact that they as the alliance captain wanted something else? Given that the entire red alliance wanted 1323 to remain in, why was this even an issue?

1323, along with the entire alliance, deserves an apology.

[MrTechCenter]

I'm a bit surprised that Frank from HQ made the call that he did, that's VERY surprising unless he wasn't told the entire situation or misunderstood, I don't see why he would say that they had to stay out given the circumstances.

[AlecS]

Thank you to the teams and FIRST members showing their support for our team during an incredibly difficult experience for our team and alliance. Their support made what was the worst experience in FIRST I have ever had slightly more bearable. I think it is more than fair to say that nobody on Team 1323 is currently in any state of mind to write a cohesive, detailed response about what happened during semifinals. However, we will share the facts from our story when we have had more time to think about what happened today. Please refrain from jumping to conclusions about what occurred based on rumors or hearsay.

All I will say right now is that telling our students that their season is over because of a loss is difficult. Telling our students that their season is over because of a situation like this is a decision I cannot begin to understand.

[Cory]

I'm a bit surprised that Frank from HQ made the call that he did, that's VERY surprising unless he wasn't told the entire situation or misunderstood, I don't see why he would say that they had to stay out given the circumstances.

Why is it hard to understand? In an unprecedented move he already retroactively DQ'ed an alliance in two matches for questionable reasons 4 weeks ago.

[DampRobot]

Why is it hard to understand? In an unprecedented move he already retroactively DQ'ed an alliance in two matches for questionable reasons 4 weeks ago.

Are you referring to the whole Pink/Bacon thing?

[Jared Russell]

I wish the MC had done a better job of explaining exactly what had happened to the arena, because immediately after 1323 left the field there was a lot of rampant speculation and accusations thrown in the referee's direction. People always look for a single person or entity to blame for an unfortunate situation, but in this case it is not clear who made the final call, and with what information the call was made. It was a bad situation all around.

I am thoroughly impressed with how 1323 has handled all of this this. They are truly a class act and handled their misfortune far more graciously than I would have. Their season ended with them being forced to remove their robot from the field in the middle of a tight semifinal series, with what turned out to be at least two Wild Card spots awaiting their alliance in the Finals. While they would have had to defeat the #1 seeded alliance in back to back matches to advance to the finals, the 1323/846/2135 alliance was more than capable of such a feat. As soon as alliance selections had finished, I knew that the semifinals were going to be tough. They posted big scores in the quarterfinals, and we narrowly escaped with a victory in SF1-1 thanks in no small part to 1323's versatile offensive play and defense.

As far as what happened: please do not jump to conclusions on this. I was a firsthand observer for much of this incident and am myself confused at who made which decisions.

I was standing right behind 1323's student when they handed their coupon to the head referee. I was actually with 971's student alliance captain adjacent to the question box at the time, ready to turn in the #1 seed's timeout if called upon (254 was busy fixing a gearbox issue and we knew we might need a few minutes).

After SF2-1 (the match preceding our next match), I saw the 1323 student approach the ref with a coupon/coupon(s) in their hand (didn't notice which) along with the captain's armband. The student spoke to the head ref and gave him a coupon, and after a brief conversation that I could not overhear, he turned around and started to head back to the pit. He did not take 3 steps before I stopped and asked him, "Did you guys just call your timeout?", to which he replied, "Yes". I do not know what exactly the exchange with the ref entailed, but it was absolutely clear that the student thought he had called a timeout. At the time I actually thought to myself, "Sweet, we didn't have to use our own timeout." 1323 called the timeout to fix a drive encoder cable that is only used during autonomous mode - certainly not a fatal failure by any stretch of the imagination.

Five-ish minutes later, and the #1 and #4 seeded alliances are getting back into the queuing line to take to the field for SF1-2. I do not know if there was any interaction between the head ref and a representative from 1323 in this intervening period. Once in line, the head ref comes to 1323 and asks which robot is being replaced. I was standing right next to RC, who is surprised and tries to clarify that he wanted a timeout, not a backup robot. The head ref reluctantly sounds like he will let 1323 continue to play at this point in time.

I return to my seat assuming the match will soon begin, but there is now a 15+ minute field delay. I assumed it was FMS issues (the field had a number of problems over the weekend, but that's a topic for another thread) until I heard it announced that 670 was preparing to enter the match. I was as confused as everyone else. When I saw that 1323 was being told to leave the field, I attempted to get to the front of the crowd to talk to the head referee. I said that I was standing right behind the student and that the student thought he had turned in the timeout coupon, and that it was an honest mistake. The ref asserted that the student confirmed it was for a backup robot and then asked me, "Student or mentor?" When I said "Mentor", he said "I cannot talk to you". (It is not clear to me that this is a correct interpretation of T13, but I then knew that my words weren't going to change this situation and I walked away).

Despite what is posted on the FIRST website regarding SF1-2, 1323 left and was replaced by 670. They did an admirable job, but it wasn't enough. It is hard to overcome losing your alliance captain.

A student made a simple mistake, likely due to ambiguous communication between him and the head ref in a panicked moment. This should have been a harmless mistake with an easy remedy. The entire red alliance had zero doubt that 1323 intended to call the timeout all along. Instead, you have team members in tears in their pits. Not because they lost, but because they didn't even get the chance that they earned through their #4 alliance captain position.

What really, really, really grinds my gears is the total hypocrisy of the situation. We have video of missed assists in many of our matches. Non-calls and phantom calls that make absolutely no sense when watching the replay. Bizarre field faults involving hot goals, pedestals, and even transitioning the whole field into teleop 1.5 seconds after the start of autonomous (!). In these situations, we could do nothing but pound sand or get a replay (in the case of the latter issue). Why the double standard when a high school student makes an honest mistake?

[magnets]

What really, really, really grinds my gears is the total hypocrisy of the situation. We have video of missed assists in many of our matches. Non-calls and phantom calls that make absolutely no sense when watching the replay. Bizarre field faults involving hot goals, pedestals, and even transitioning the whole field into teleop 1.5 seconds after the start of autonomous (!). In these situations, we could do nothing but pound sand or get a replay (in the case of the latter issue). Why the double standard when a high school student makes an honest mistake?

Exactly. The under pressure, stressed out high school students (and the robots they build) should never be held to a higher standard than FIRST's field, which is developed by paid professionals. It's just backward. I can't see any positive reason to make the decision that was made, and I know if I made that honest little mistake when I was in high school, and FIRST HQ responded the way they did, I would have left the program. There is no way that the kid, or any person on his team is feeling at all inspired. How do you explain this to your sponsor? I know that sponsors shouldn't care about a teams performance, but the reality is that some do. What mentor wants to be part of a program where you spend tens of thousands of dollars to compete in a poorly thought out game (the whole dead ball thing), with a field that doesn't work, and a set of unenforceable rules, in which you've just been disqualified because one high school kid made a little mistake?

This is really, really bad.

[hionwind]

Obviously there is a dark cloud hanging over the Silicon Valley Regional and, until we hear Madtown's version of the story, we are all making conjectures as to what really happened. It is unfortunate that a great team like 1323 was not able to finsh their season by showing their true capabilities. RC and his team have been the epitome of gracious professionalism over the years and, in so many ways, have helped 1678 achieve our current level of success. Thank you RC for all that you do for FIRST and our kids. There is a reason why you are a WFA recipient and your team a past Chairman's winner.

Having said that, I would like to talk about the positive outcomes at this year's SVR. Aside from this one major controversy, this was a very exciting and competitive regional. The depth of talent was remarkable and, during eliminations, you could tell that there was no obvious outcome despite some powerful alliances being formed. I was especially impressed with the quality of some of the rookie and second year teams. 4990 looked like a veteran team both on the field and in the pit. To seed 12th in your first regional is a great accomplishment but you should also be proud of the professionalism that your students showed in all aspects of the competition.

Thank you so much to our partners 368 and 4171 for helping us keep things interesting in the finals. 368's swerve drive was a thing of beauty and your ability to shoot into the high goal on the fly was amazing. This is the second time that 4171 has joined our alliance (you guys helped us win Cal Games last year) and, once again, you did an excellent job by starting the all-important 30-point assist cycle.

Congratulations to teams 254, 971 and 1662 for taking home the winner's trophy; to team 604 for another Chairman's win (how many is that now?); to team 2035 for winning EI (and for having a "rockin" robot); and, finally, to Annette Lane for a well-deserved Woody Flowers award.

For 1678, this was the most competitive and exciting regional we have ever played. We had a blast, made a lot of new friends, and learned a ton about strategy and execution which will help us improve as we move on to champs. Despite breaking down in the finals, I would say that this is our most successful regional showing to date. We are planning to work hard over the next few weeks and look forward to seeing some of you in St. Louis.

[DigitalOutlaw53]

I am the Lead Mentor for Team 2135 which was a member of the alliance that was lead by 1323 and included 846 in the Finals at SVR. I am also the father of one of the mentors of 1323.

1323, like so many teams in FRC, have given so much back to the sport, their communities and of course their students. 1323 and the entire FRC community have helped our team on countless occasions without ever asking for anything in return. It is a privilege and an honor to walk with 1323 and our entire FRC family.

I make no comment on the facts of the matter as no one on 2135 were aware of what was happening until after the match. I do not have any additional information to offer on the events and this is not meant to denigrate any individual or group in any way. Things happened.

What I can comment on are two things:

1. 1323 took the matter as the gentlemen and leaders which they are. They calmly walked off the field with their heads held high even though this was a crushing way to cap off thousands of hours of hard work. While they did not agree with the decision, they nevertheless played by the rules and left the field. I am very proud of their maturity and I am worried I would have looked like a screaming two year old had I been in the same position.

2. I shouldn't be surprised by the reaction of the California FRC community to what happened but I was. Every team I saw in the building after the match came up to 1323 to congratulate them on an outstanding season and their entire history in FRC. Most didn't care about what happened, they just needed to show their support. I was totally overwhelmed by the whole thing. FRC and Silicon Valley/California are amazing and we will always be strong with such great people including the teams, the volunteers and the refs - everyone.

[roystur44]

With all the big sharks swimming in the tank it was a great time competing with some of the best teams in First.

As a second year team I am proud to mentor my kids and what they accomplished in the little time they had to build a robot, become a team, and learn how to compete with the robot.

Every time we met and did robotics we learned something new.

To all the people who make the SVR run a big THANK YOU.

[joelg236]

and even transitioning the whole field into teleop 1.5 seconds after the start of autonomous (!).?

Did this match get replayed? That's not something you can't notice...

[AlecS]

After some time to think about what happened, here is what I have to say about what happened in SF 1-2, and the rest of the regional.

As far as the facts of the situation are concerned, both Brian Bond and Jared are correct. During SF 1-1 our drive encoder wire snagged and was cut, which caused our robot to slam into the driver station wall during autonomous.

When the team got back to the pit and discovered the issue, we knew we needed to fix it for the next match. RC, quickly handed our student a card, and told him to go to the question box and call a timeout. This is where the mistake occurred on our part, in the heat of moment, RC accidentally gave the student the backup card instead of the timeout card. This was not realized at the time, and the student had no reason to believe the card he was handed was the wrong one.

The student went to the question box and verbally requested a timeout, and gave the head ref the card he was handed, which turned out to be the backup card. Although nobody else appears to have overheard this conversation, to question the integrity of the student, who claims to have clearly requested a timeout, is outrageous.

From there, our team went about repairing our robot for the next match. We informed our alliance partners we had called a timeout. At some point during the timeout, the head ref came to our pit and asked if we “were going to be in” for the next match. Without knowing any context to his question, we said yes, we are in. This is where a major miscommunication occurred. Without knowing or hearing any context to the question, nobody on 1323 had any idea anything involving backup robot was being considered. No mention of a backup was ever announced in the pits.

We finished fixing our robot and sent it out to the field, only to be told we would be forced to sit out. The events transcribed as Jared said, with our entire drive team being extremely confused and distraught about the situation. Our drive team explained that they were trying to call a timeout not a backup and that a mistake must have been made. The head ref appeared to understand the error, however after a discussion behind the scoring table with FIRST HQ, we were told we would be forced to sit out.


I will not publicly speculate on who made what decisions, or the officials intentions during communications with our team, nor will we likely ever know exactly what the officials thought was happening. However, the fact that there was a decision actively made to force our team to sit out, and ultimately end our season, while knowing what we had intended to do is a decision that I don't think I will ever understand. In a competition that is supposed to inspire students to pursue STEM, telling our students that even though they worked incredibly hard throughout the entire season, they don't get the chance they earned to compete because of a simple, honest, mistake seems to be just about the least inspiring thing I can think of. This decision, combined with other unfortunate interactions with event officials throughout the event left our students and mentors in a state of frustration that I have never felt before at a FIRST event.

Again we cannot thank our friends enough for their support. The behavior of these teams during this experience is something myself and the rest of 1323 will never forget.

Teams 846 and 2135, you guys were awesome alliance partners, and were completely innocent parties in this ordeal. Your condolences to our team after the matches were greatly appreciated.

Team 670, I am sorry you were placed into this situation. I know it must have been more confusing for you than it was for us as to what was going on. Thank you for being so polite about what happened. One of your mentors brought RC, our drive team and myself waters as we were in tears after the match. This was a true example of gp.

Teams 971, 254, 1662, 1678, 368, 4171, you guys were awesome opponents and your offer to protest as you did was incredibly inspiring. Your teams should never have been placed in a situation where you felt that another team was being wronged to point where you felt you had to protest. Thank you for everything you did.

Team 254, thank you for trying to show support with our banner.

At the end of day, what's done is done. Hopefully, FIRST will learn from this experience and other shocking rulings this season, and in the future, will not disregard it’s own mission statement when making unprecedented rulings during eliminations play.

I expect RC will post his own thought’s on what transpired, over the next few days.

[AdamHeard]

The red alliance (971,254,1662) along with the 2nd seed alliance (1678,368,4171) attempted to protest this decision, and were told any attempt to protest the decision would result in their removal from the FIRST Championship.

What?

[dodar]

The red alliance (971,254,1662) along with the 2nd seed alliance (1678,368,4171) attempted to protest this decision, and were told any attempt to protest the decision would result in their removal from the FIRST Championship.


Is this for real?

[R.C.]

Sorry for the late post,

Its taken me a while to write this. Before I start, I can't thank Team 254 enough. You guys are awesome and thank you so much for letting my kids go down with you guys. It meant the world to them. Also thank you to the teams that came by (971/1678/2135/846/604 etc..) You guys were the only reason the event was bearable. Thank you all who have posted/texted me supporting us, it means a ton to us.

This is exactly what happened.

Semi Match 1 our robot in auton ran into the wall. We've seen this happen before, basically we knew our encoder came unplugged. We didn't' call a timeout immediately because it seemed like a simple fix. At SVR it took 1-3 minutes to get just off the field. The second we got back into the pits the wires had came out of the 4 pin encoder. We ripped the timout card in half and gave it to our student who ran over to call a timeout. Thinking double timeouts, use one. Nothing else on our robot was broken except one darn encoder connector.

The student asked for a timeout twice and a poof mentor even asked him what he was asking for. It was a timeout. This was all very rushed because we didn't' want them to not except our timeout. The head ref acknowledged it was a timeout and said you got 6 minutes.

4-5 minutes later the head ref came over to our pit to ask what robot is being subbed out. We were all very very confused as we wanted a timeout. We've had this same situation happen when we took long to get back into the que line. So we just replied, No we are fine, we are in or something to the extent we are not being subbed out. There were 9 kids and about 4-5 kids that heard this same thing.

Once we finished we hustled into the que line and people were asking us why we subbed out? We at this point were just confused as we would never sub out unless our robot tore in half (a bit extreme I know). The head ref came over and started telling us that were taking advantage of the system and we asked for a backup. We immediately started telling him what happened. The head ref would not believe we said we did not want to be subbed out and we were in. Seriously? Can't believe 9 students and 4 different adult? You can make a mistake... After a bit of talking the head ref was fine with what happened and we went onto the field. The head ref said we were taking both timeouts and you are okay to go onto the field.

Once on the field someone behind the scoring table had called Frank or FIRST. The information was relayed to Frank and we were asked to remove our robot from play, which we did. Frank at FIRST made the call, unsure if Frank got all the information. We feel as he was told a distorted view.

I have been apart of FIRST for 9-10 years. I have never ever gone back to the pits crying along with students.

Over this past weekend, we have been harassed by inspectors for having 10-12 batteries charging in the pits and for "apparently" cheating by putting our blocker on and off even tho it was weighed in initially and demonstrated. The head LRI told the person re inspecting our robot to take their sweet time and as long as possible. <- What gives?

The refs missed an absurd amount of calls and we had to "educate" them how the rules worked. The best calls missed were the ones in front of them. We didn't' even get a field fault when two balls were on the field, apparently ref's didn't see it!

All we and the other alliance wanted was to play the match. I'm not upset that we lost to 254/971. We've lost to them countless times, but the fact we got removed and we didn't' have a chance to send our kids to champs.

There was no logic with this call, I said it numerous times this past weekend when I was frustrated with crappy volunteers. This isn't a powertrip time for adults, its a time to let kids learn and play matches. A kid made an honest mistake, he verbally communicated what he and the team wanted. Just because a stupid piece was paper was incorrectly handed does that mean we have to be subbed out?

This is pretty hard to swallow, we wont' be back at this event ever again and I'm sick of these awful rules and standards set by FIRST. How do you hold a kid to something when you can't even hold the adults responsible?

[R.C.]

What?

I was told this as well.. From a few different people.

[joelg236]

What?

Yes, this seems absurd. How could they possibly even imply that?

[Boe]

The red alliance (971,254,1662) along with the 2nd seed alliance (1678,368,4171) attempted to protest this decision, and were told any attempt to protest the decision would result in their removal from the FIRST Championship.


This is absolutely absurd, and I truly hope that someone misheard something somewhere. Also 254 going down to the field with 1323's students and trying to take their banner reaffirms that 254 is the classiest team in first.

[Pat Fairbank]

Did this match get replayed? That's not something you can't notice...
It wasn't as obvious as you might think. It happened to us twice -- once during qualifications (Match 92), and once during eliminations (SF 1-1).

In Match 92, the autonomous appeared to progress normally, except that our second shot went wild (over the top of the goal, as if the shooter hood were in the wrong position) and the third ball failed to shoot before teleop started. 192 also failed to shoot their second ball, so my immediate thought from the stands was that autonomous was 1-2 seconds short for everyone.

Our code logs a bunch of stuff on the robot's file system every match, including teleop vs. auton and enabled vs. disabled states, so upon examination of the log file after the match we were surprised to find that the robot was in autonomous enabled mode for the first 1.5 seconds, then teleop disabled for 0.5, then autonomous enabled again for 8. We brought it to the attention of the FTA, and the match was replayed (it could be that they were able to correlate this with the FMS logs, but I don't know for sure).

Has anyone seen this at previous events? If not, seems like it's yet another new and exciting failure mode for FMS.

[Andrew Lawrence]

First off I would like to congratulate 1323 on an amazing performance this weekend and for reacting to this terrible call in a most mature and professional manner that I'm sure very little of us would have been able to do. You are an inspiration to all of us.

I don't know all of the protocols for such an event, but why would they contact Frank, the FRC Director, instead of Aidan, the Chief Referee at FIRST HQ? In all respect to Frank, I don't see how he is the person to contact in this situation above a referee.

[connor.worley]

The red alliance (971,254,1662) along with the 2nd seed alliance (1678,368,4171) attempted to protest this decision, and were told any attempt to protest the decision would result in their removal from the FIRST Championship.

This is unbelievable... props to all teams involved for not exploding at the scoring table.

[Steven Donow]

Has anyone seen this at previous events? If not, seems like it's yet another new and exciting failure mode for FMS.

This actually sounds like something similar that I was told about by my HS team (223)...from what it sounded like, they weren't being enabled until 1.5 seconds into auto...not sure if it was their own issue in code or the field itself. Will find out more info.

[cadandcookies]

Sounds like there's some 'splainin' to do from HQ.

Hindsight is 20/20. I hope HQ can recognize that a mistake was made and needs to be at the least apologized for.

I'll be interested to hear that side of the story.

[Thad House]

The red alliance (971,254,1662) along with the 2nd seed alliance (1678,368,4171) attempted to protest this decision, and were told any attempt to protest the decision would result in their removal from the FIRST Championship.

This is absolutely appalling that anybody would say that. I am speechless about what to say. One of the most outrageous things I have heard in my time in FIRST.

[AlecMataloni]

Wow, this season is just a colossal joke, isn't it? My condolences to RC, who's been a huge resource and good friend to me, as well as everyone from 1323, 846, and 2135.

HQ might as well refund these teams their registration costs, because they just wasted their weekend. Better yet, they should extend a free invitation to St. Louis to them as well. At bare minimum, I'd expect some sort of acknowledgment from HQ that they intentionally screwed three teams out of a positive FRC experience.

[dodar]

IMO this is the only acceptable outcome that would feel sincere

Since they didnt offer 624, 233, or 1902, I doubt they offer them.

[Jared]

It wasn't as obvious as you might think. It happened to us twice -- once during qualifications (Match 92), and once during eliminations (SF 1-1).

In Match 92, the autonomous appeared to progress normally, except that our second shot went wild (over the top of the goal, as if the shooter hood were in the wrong position) and the third ball failed to shoot before teleop started. 192 also failed to shoot their second ball, so my immediate thought from the stands was that autonomous was 1-2 seconds short for everyone.

Our code logs a bunch of stuff on the robot's file system every match, including teleop vs. auton and enabled vs. disabled states, so upon examination of the log file after the match we were surprised to find that the robot was in autonomous enabled mode for the first 1.5 seconds, then teleop disabled for 0.5, then autonomous enabled again for 8. We brought it to the attention of the FTA, and the match was replayed (it could be that they were able to correlate this with the FMS logs, but I don't know for sure).

Has anyone seen this at previous events? If not, seems like it's yet another new and exciting failure mode for FMS.

Not to derail the thread, but yes, we've seen something like it, where the driver station log showed about .5 seconds of teleop enabled in the middle of auto mode. When teleop starts, the robot automatically creates a file on the cRIO. After the match, when I went to check the file to see why the robot stopped driving forward too quickly and our 2 ball timing was off, I noticed there were two of these files, meaning we went into teleop twice in the match.

EDIT- The field also seemed to have a few other issues too, where people would have to constantly unplug then reconnect the timers/team displays/ethernet cables from the driver station control case at the blue side.

[Navid Shafa]

Since they didnt offer 624, 233, or 1902, I doubt they offer them.

Unfortunately, I think you are right. Thankfully both 624 and 1902 ended up becoming eligible for champs, but 233 got shafted :/
That robot and team deserve to make the trip.

It's really weird to think of a Championship without without PINK...

They haven't missed a Championship since their beginning in '99.

[Akash Rastogi]

Been friends with RC and 1323 for a number of years now. A lot of this just sounds disrespectful to a Chairman's and WFFA winning team.

Even more absurd if the rumors of threatening protesting teams is true. What a disappointing story to hear.

I want to hear the other side of all this, but the fact that these rumors exist is just disheartening. Such a simple call could have avoided so much unnecessary drama.

[P.J.]

What?

Quoted for truth. I cant believe they threatened to not let a HALL OF FAME TEAM go to the championship event for doing the exact action you would expect from a HoF team. And kudos to the other teams involved as well for their displays of gracious professionalism.

Although I dont personally know anyone from 1323, I'm sorry that this could happen to anyone.

Edit: Although the threatening is based on hearsay, the point remains. This whole situation was a mess, but the GP shown by all teams involved (at least according to most people in this thread) is the silver lining, so to speak.

[MrTechCenter]

Quoted for truth. I cant believe they threatened to not let a HALL OF FAME TEAM go to the championship event for doing the exact action you would expect from a HoF team. And kudos to the other teams involved as well for their displays of gracious professionalism.

Although I dont personally know anyone from 1323, I'm sorry that this could happen to anyone.

This. Gracious Professionalism is a core value in FIRST and rarely do I see a team refuse to practice it. If this is what was really said, then FIRST (or at least somebody at FIRST) is most certainly not practicing gracious professionalism, in fact, they would be discouraging it in this case which is absolutely appalling.

[PayneTrain]

Quoted for truth. I cant believe they threatened to not let a HALL OF FAME TEAM go to the championship event for doing the exact action you would expect from a HoF team. And kudos to the other teams involved as well for their displays of gracious professionalism.

Although I dont personally know anyone from 1323, I'm sorry that this could happen to anyone.

For what it's worth, that part is hearsay at this time. I haven't seen anyone from those teams come on and confirm it.

Not that I ever would be, but if I was 254 I would probably call their bluff. Kick an HOF team out of champs that won every event this year and expect it to go over well. Not likely. They'd still be at World Champs that weekend, just a different one.

[ThunderousPrime]

Better yet, they should extend a free invitation to St. Louis to them as well.

I thought that this might be a good way to reconcile for the unfortunate and disappointing circumstances. It wouldn't be that hard to extend just one "wildcard" invitation to a deserving team; 2135 and 846 are both already qualified by their Central Valley and Buckeye wins respectively.

I send my regards to 1323 for such an unfortunate situation.

Props to the other alliances for trying to overturn the call. The idea that their champ spots were at risk is outrageous.

I hope that this situation can be resolved in some positive way.

[DampRobot]

I'm almost reluctant to bring this up... But the #6 alliance (1280, 604, 100) called a backup bot before Semis 2 Match 2, in which we subbed our alliance captain, 1280, for a backup bot (the Insomniacs, 2489). Could this have somehow confused the people at the scoring table? Might they have thought the captain of the blue alliance in semis 1 was trying to sub themselves out instead of in semis 2, especially with the card mixup?

[Jared Russell]

Like I said in my previous post, this was a very confusing situation for all involved. It is important to separate facts from conjecture.

While several people have reported that our team (and others) were threatened for protesting the decision, I want to make it clear that Team 254 did NOT experience anything of the sort. We are confident that no representative of FIRST would ever say something like this.

Every other detail in this thread was observed firsthand by those involved, but to reiterate, Team 254 was never threatened by anyone. I would guess that a volunteer or competitor speculated that this was the case and unfortunately that rumor grew legs.

[P.J.]

While several people have reported that our team (and others) were threatened for protesting the decision, I want to make it clear that Team 254 did NOT experience anything of the sort. We are confident that no representative of FIRST would ever say something like this.

Every other detail in this thread was observed firsthand by those involved, but to reiterate, Team 254 was never threatened by anyone. I would guess that a volunteer or competitor speculated that this was the case and unfortunately that rumor grew legs.

My apologies, I did not mean to contribute to spreading rumors. I've added an anecdote to my initial post as well.

[the.miler]

I'd just like to say thank you to 1323 for giving us the opportunity to be part of your alliance. It was an incredible experience working with you guys, RC and the 1323 crew are a class act on and off the field. We love you guys, loved working with you, and just know that you guys are truly the best team in FRC. What an incredible first three elimination matches, taking it so close to the 1st alliance during SF1-1 was amazing.

I was there when 1323 was pulled from their final match, and the way they walked off the field with class and dignity was proof that they did not deserve what was happening to them, proof of exactly what an amazing, incredible team they are. Words cannot express how much respect these guys deserve for how they handled this situation.

1323 has already elaborated on the circumstances; I'll simply say that from Team 846's standpoint that's exactly what transpired.

We came back from what should have been 1323's second semifinal match to see a great, inspirational team in tears, and that was just way too much for me. What an injustice and a profoundly uninspiring moment. 1323 wasn't the only team crying by the end of this.

Thank you to 2135 for playing so well for our alliance. You guys were great on the inbound, a key part of what made our alliance so strong, and we look forward to seeing you again at Championships.

Thank you to 670 for doing an admirable job subbing in during that final match. Only wish that we played together under better circumstances. You guys are great.

And of course, thank you to everyone who supported our alliance during this ordeal. A mentor from 254 (don't know his name) was clapping while our alliance was taking a group picture after the semifinals, and I cannot even begin to express how much that meant to everyone standing there. Bringing Madtown's banner up, just everything about how people reached out . . . those things were the only good about what happened.

[Eugene Fang]

I'm almost reluctant to bring this up... But the #6 alliance (1280, 604, 100) called a backup bot before Semis 2 Match 2, in which we subbed our alliance captain, 1280, for a backup bot (the Insomniacs, 2489). Could this have somehow confused the people at the scoring table? Might they have thought the captain of the blue alliance in semis 1 was trying to sub themselves out instead of in semis 2, especially with the card mixup?

I highly doubt it. We only requested the backup bot after the match that 1323 was not allowed to compete in had finished.

As a part time mentor of 1323, I too am deeply saddened by the events that unfolded. All I can hope for is a better explanation from FIRST for why these decisions were made.

[AlecS]

Like I said in my previous post, this was a very confusing situation for all involved. It is important to separate facts from conjecture.

While several people have reported that our team (and others) were threatened for protesting the decision, I want to make it clear that Team 254 did NOT experience anything of the sort. We are confident that no representative of FIRST would ever say something like this.

Every other detail in this thread was observed firsthand by those involved, but to reiterate, Team 254 was never threatened by anyone. I would guess that a volunteer or competitor speculated that this was the case and unfortunately that rumor grew legs.

My apologies for perpetuating this rumor, it was told to me by several long time friends and key volunteers at the event, who I assumed would not have mentioned anything if they were not absolutely sure of the situation. The fact that this is incorrect demonstrates the immense confusion that surrounded the volunteer and competitor base after the event.

[RohitD]

I'm almost reluctant to bring this up... But the #6 alliance (1280, 604, 100) called a backup bot before Semis 2 Match 2, in which we subbed our alliance captain, 1280, for a backup bot (the Insomniacs, 2489). Could this have somehow confused the people at the scoring table? Might they have thought the captain of the blue alliance in semis 1 was trying to sub themselves out instead of in semis 2, especially with the card mixup?

If I remember right, there was a lot of confusion about whether we would actually go in, and we didn't know for certain until after 670 went in. It was a very confusing 10 minutes, but I think that 670 was already in by the time we were confirmed as playing.

[Steven A]

I'd like to congratulate the alliance (1323, 846 and 2135) for all their achievements up to SVR and your spectacular performance in the first semifinal match.

Team 1323, your performance at CVR was something that our team looks up to and the way you (and your alliance) played during the first semifinal match was nothing short of amazing.

Team 846 and 2135, I cant thank you enough for accommodating for our abrupt entry.

From our perspective, we were quite confused about which alliance we were supposed to sub.

We should NOT have rushed into the situation as we did and instead should have learned more about the situation before making a decision.

For everyone who tried to make things right for Team 1323, thank you for doing so.

[Citrus Dad]

What really, really, really grinds my gears is the total hypocrisy of the situation. We have video of missed assists in many of our matches. Non-calls and phantom calls that make absolutely no sense when watching the replay. Bizarre field faults involving hot goals, pedestals, and even transitioning the whole field into teleop 1.5 seconds after the start of autonomous (!). In these situations, we could do nothing but pound sand or get a replay (in the case of the latter issue). Why the double standard when a high school student makes an honest mistake?

So I ask the larger question: Why has FIRST relied on a what is clearly a faulty technology to light the pedestal (among other technology problems) when a simple button on the refs stand would do (if even that), but hasn't implemented a very simple spreadsheet system to track when playoff teams use their timeout instead of requiring them to carry around a small sheet of paper than can be easily lost and easily confused with the backup ticket? Clearly the priorities for game and system design are misplaced at the moment.

If someone is going to tell me this is the "real world" I've got news for them--they don't live in the real world. I have almost 30 years of experience working in the regulatory and policy world. I often see empathetic rulings to accommodate mistakes that can have much more serious consequences for all of the parties concerned. FIRST needs to change its policies to reflect the "real world."

[alectronic]

...hasn't implemented a very simple spreadsheet system to track when playoff teams use their timeout instead of requiring them to carry around a small sheet of paper than can be easily lost and easily confused with the backup ticket? Clearly the priorities for game and system design are misplaced at the moment.

I don't know, but my guess would be there would be too much confusion over if someone "actually" called a "verbal" timeout or backup. When they have to turn something in, they are making a clear decision that is much easier to understand than if a student runs up in a moment of panic and asks for a timeout, someone grants it, then they change their mind, etc. Having something physical probably reduces those types of possible confusions. Additionally, those papers are given to the alliance captain. Which means, whoever used them, was "authorized" by the alliance captain (they had to get them from somewhere!). If any old person ran up and asked for a timeout or backup, who knows what alliance they are really on? (Shirts, etc, are not guarantees) This makes it very clear who they are and what they want, and they are committing to it.

[StevenB]

We ripped the timout card in half and gave it to our student who ran over to call a timeout. Thinking double timeouts, use one. Nothing else on our robot was broken except one darn encoder connector.

Just to clarify - the timeout/backup cards were on one piece of paper and you ripped them apart, thinking they were both timeout cards?

[R.C.]

Just to clarify - the timeout/backup cards were on one piece of paper and you ripped them apart, thinking they were both timeout cards?

Pretty much, we thought they were both timeouts. The kid didn't know any better.

We wanted to get the timeout ASAP. We've had it where the ref wouldn't grant us one unless it was done ASAP.

The kid on the field that was there during alliance selections was the same one fixing the encoder problem. So we had another kid take up the card. Honest mistake.

I don't feel the correct call was made, especially since the opposite alliance had no issue with it. No one is perfect and this game has been far from it...

[TKM.368]

Thank you so much to our partners 368 and 4171 for helping us keep things interesting in the finals. 368's swerve drive was a thing of beauty and your ability to shoot into the high goal on the fly was amazing. This is the second time that 4171 has joined our alliance (you guys helped us win Cal Games last year) and, once again, you did an excellent job by starting the all-important 30-point assist cycle.

Mahalo to the Citrus Circuits 1678 for looking past our uninspiring 6-5-0 record at SVR and making us your first pick. Your leadership and tenacity made for great gameplay. With an excellent partner in 4171, we certainly had the potential to go all the way. Congratulations to 971, 254, and 1662 for taking gold. Your alliance was certainly a behemoth that we couldn't overcome. Congratulations also to all the award winners whose work was recognized by the judges.

It was great returning to SVR after a seven year hiatus. Mahalo to all of the people who stopped by our pit to come see the 368 Poor Man's Swerve. We've never had quite so many visitors to our pit before.

Looing forward to seeing some of you in St. Louis (including 4171 via wildcard - yay!).

Aloha!

[icecube45]

I'm so sorry to hear about the unfortunate time-out card mix up, and consequential decision.

Although our alliance was kicked out in the first Quarter Final, it's unfortunate to see other alliances go through this kind of thing.

I don't know anyone from 1323, but if anyone from 1323 is reading this, it's a major shame.

I wish you the best of luck for next year, (and possibly CalGames)

-icecube45 (Team 114 Driver)

[Brian Selle]

This is utterly ridiculous. Worst case, the 1323 alliance should have been stripped of both their backup and timeout coupons.

[Grim Tuesday]

I've said in other threads that FIRST isn't about winning. It isn't. This kind of call though, has nothing to do with winning. It has everything to do with a perception of fairness, and an honest mistake. Maybe honest mistakes were made on both sides of the call? I hope Frank will respond with a blog post. If everything we've heard in this thread is true and there is no additional information, this sounds like one of the crappiest ways to end a season. It isn't inspiring, it isn't fun. It goes beyond team 1323 not winning. It represents something that is unwelcome in FIRST, something from a cutthroat competition. It undermines the entire season for many teams. I don't like bashing on the referees or any one person at FIRST HQ, but I'd like to see the complaints from the community recognized, and hope see plans for them to be rectified for next year.

I hope we will hear from Frank that there was a misunderstanding there as well, and this was not an intentional call to force a team to sit out their last match due to an honest mistake.

[Cory]

Are you referring to the whole Pink/Bacon thing?

Yes

[AdamHeard]

Head ref is not a reasonable or intelligent person.

1323 asked for timeout. Accidentally turned in backup card. Head said 1323 must sub out.

I won't edit or delete this post, I said it and believe in dealing with what you have said.

I'll revise my statement though. Intelligent was an unfair comment, as someone intelligent can easily be unreasonable.

We also don't actually know who made the final call. It was unfair to state head ref right off the bat.

I do stand by the fact that whoever did make the final call here is unreasonable, and such a call is just ridiculous.

[billbo911]

I won't edit or delete this post, I said it and believe in dealing with what you have said.

I'll revise my statement though. Intelligent was an unfair comment, as someone intelligent can easily be unreasonable.

We also don't actually know who made the final call. It was unfair to state head ref right off the bat.

I do stand by the fact that whoever did make the final call here is unreasonable, and such a call is just ridiculous.

Thank you Adam for the edit, and for the integrity to not try to cover up you statement.

I really only have one disagreement with you last comment. Here is my thinking on this.

As I stated earlier in post #42 (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1369672&postcount=42), I believe the decision was made on a strict interpretation of the rules related to Timeouts and Substitutions. I have no facts to support this, it is just the only logical explanation I can come up with to explain the "why" behind the decision.

Again, this is my opinion only. I believe whoever made the decision understood the "slippery slope" you find yourself on VERY QUICKLY when you start interpreting rules based on "reasonableness". It leaves the door wide open to serious inconsistencies in making calls.

This situation SUCKS, there is no getting around that fact. But I would much rather have rules that are Black and White instead of being left open to various interpretations.

Although, there sure seemed to be A LOT of that going on this year, but that should be a different thread.

[Citrus Dad]

I don't know, but my guess would be there would be too much confusion over if someone "actually" called a "verbal" timeout or backup. When they have to turn something in, they are making a clear decision that is much easier to understand than if a student runs up in a moment of panic and asks for a timeout, someone grants it, then they change their mind, etc. Having something physical probably reduces those types of possible confusions. Additionally, those papers are given to the alliance captain. Which means, whoever used them, was "authorized" by the alliance captain (they had to get them from somewhere!). If any old person ran up and asked for a timeout or backup, who knows what alliance they are really on? (Shirts, etc, are not guarantees) This makes it very clear who they are and what they want, and they are committing to it.

First, almost every major sport calls and records timeouts in the manner that I've described. In football and basketball where the timeouts are limited, the burden of recording the number of timeouts is on the officials, and then the number available are displayed. I'm not aware of any sport that requires a team to carry around a chit. Also, I'm not aware of any sport where a team much turn in a chit to make a substitution.

The risk of losing the chit, or providing the wrong one is much higher than a student inadvertently going to an official and misusing a timeout. The team captain is clearly identified with an armband, and as in football, only the team captain or the coach would be allowed to call the timeout. All of these issues have already been thought through by other sports--let's invent the next game instead of the reinventing the wheel.

[Ryan Dognaux]

When did FIRST abandon reason for madness? A little common sense would have resolved this situation and made it a non-issue. I don't care if FIRST HQ was telling me to throw a team out, I would have let them play even if it meant never being a head referee ever again. With the laundry list of tough calls the referees have to make this season, this one should have been an easy one.

My heart goes out to 1323. What an awful way to end a season. Let the kids play FIRST - or is this competition now about adults punishing students?

[Andrew Schreiber]

Again, this is my opinion only. I believe whoever made the decision understood the "slippery slope" you find yourself on VERY QUICKLY when you start interpreting rules based on "reasonableness". It leaves the door wide open to serious inconsistencies in making calls.

This situation SUCKS, there is no getting around that fact. But I would much rather have rules that are Black and White instead of being left open to various interpretations.


There's a big difference between interpretation and having a human in the loop. There's a huge difference between judging intent/impact of an on field action that lasted 2 seconds and judging intent/impact of a discussion with a single student who happened to hand you the wrong piece of (often poorly) labelled paper. In the case of the latter you can say "Hey, did you mean to do this?" and there's zero consequences. Because of this, we should ALWAYS get this right.

[Citrus Dad]

Thank you Adam for the edit, and for the integrity to not try to cover up you statement.

I really only have one disagreement with you last comment. Here is my thinking on this.

As I stated earlier in post #42 (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1369672&postcount=42), I believe the decision was made on a strict interpretation of the rules related to Timeouts and Substitutions. I have no facts to support this, it is just the only logical explanation I can come up with to explain the "why" behind the decision.

Again, this is my opinion only. I believe whoever made the decision understood the "slippery slope" you find yourself on VERY QUICKLY when you start interpreting rules based on "reasonableness". It leaves the door wide open to serious inconsistencies in making calls.

This situation SUCKS, there is no getting around that fact. But I would much rather have rules that are Black and White instead of being left open to various interpretations.

Although, there sure seemed to be A LOT of that going on this year, but that should be a different thread.

Many rules this year have been left open to interpretation--there's no way to dispute that. It sounded like ALL of the involved parties had worked out an agreeable solution before it was overturned. Slippery slopes arise when there's no obvious stopping point. In this case, the situation is clear--1323 was not changing their minds, and all of the other teams knew that they were working on their robot. 1323 made a mistake--an easy one given FRC's paper system--and moved to reverse it as soon as they were aware of it. If someone interpreted this as a potential slippery slope, then we need to have a conversation about what occurred and what are the actual opportunities to exploit that type of situation. This wasn't one of them.

As I've said, the timeout system is easy to fix so this doesn't happen again.

[bduddy]

There's a big difference between interpretation and having a human in the loop. There's a huge difference between judging intent/impact of an on field action that lasted 2 seconds and judging intent/impact of a discussion with a single student who happened to hand you the wrong piece of (often poorly) labelled paper. In the case of the latter you can say "Hey, did you mean to do this?" and there's zero consequences. Because of this, we should ALWAYS get this right.The head referee attempted to confirm that 1323 wanted to replace themselves, and whatever answer he received, he believed that they did. Obviously there was a miscommunication involved somewhere.

[LeelandS]

While I feel there is no need to share my personal views on what happened at SVR (as I have kept mostly to myself throughout the season at other events), I want to remind everyone that discussion on Chief Delphi can only accomplish so much. I am thrilled, however, that members of 1323, 254 and other teams involved have commented on their experiences in an effort to enlighten the community. I, myself, am still very curious about what exactly has been going on this season.

More to my point, while it is clear that FIRST "listens" to Chief Delphi, there is only so much it can accomplish. If teams have any comments, questions or concerns (and a blind man could see that many people do), it seems most prudent to direct them right to FIRST.

At the very least, it seems many would like to know exactly what happened and what rationale was behind the decisions that were made.

Lastly, my condolences to the teams affected by the circumstances, not only at SVR, but at events all around the world. I hope most, if not all of you, find some sort of absolution and consolation before the season is out.

[coalhot]

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-My-Bad-Call

#goodguyfrank

[Chris Fultz]

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-My-Bad-Call

#goodguyfrank

This is a great explanation of the situation and reasons for the decision when it was made, and a great result for all involved.

Good Call on a remedy.

[scooty199]

And so very quickly with that I believe the venom and vitriol will be quelled.

[dodar]

Im happy for 1323 for being able to go to champs after this little debacle, but this kinda gives a bad taste as to what FIRST hasnt done for 233.

[David Brinza]

Frank's proposed solution of requiring the alliance requesting a backup robot to write the team number of the robot to be replaced then initialing the backup form should prevent such miscommunication from occurring in the future.

Offering 1323 a wildcard slot to Champs is appropriate.

I just hope MadTown can accept the offer and make it to St. Louis!

[Ryan Dognaux]

I'll give FIRST credit on this one. They owned up to their mistake, made it right for 1323 and made changes to make sure this never happens again.

[DampRobot]

Good. Madtown deserves a better end to their season. Good luck at CMP RC and 1323!

[Koko Ed]

Im happy for 1323 for being able to go to champs after this little debacle, but this kinda gives a bad taste as to what FIRST hasnt done for 233.

I'm waiting for someone to scream bloody murder about the team that won't get to go to championships now because FIRST had to cover for their mistake.
There's always someone who will be unhappy about something no matter what the reasoning is.

[dodar]

I'm waiting for someone to scream bloody murder about the team that won't get to go to championships now because FIRST had to cover for their mistake.
There's always someone who will be unhappy about something no matter what the reasoning is.

Well Pink has a legitimate beef, maybe even more so than 1323, to claim they should have gotten the same treatment as 1323.

[coalhot]

I'm waiting for someone to scream bloody murder about the team that won't get to go to championships now because FIRST had to cover for their mistake.
There's always someone who will be unhappy about something no matter what the reasoning is.

I think Ed is talking about the wildcard spot that is being reallocated to 1323 for FIRST goofing. Not sure how I feel about that...

Well Pink has a legitimate beef, maybe even more so than 1323, to claim they should have gotten the same treatment as 1323.

While that was a bad call, not sure how it stacks up to this one...

[Brandon Holley]

I'm waiting for someone to scream bloody murder about the team that won't get to go to championships now because FIRST had to cover for their mistake.
There's always someone who will be unhappy about something no matter what the reasoning is.

Because 254/971 brought 2 wildcard slots to the table in the SVR finals, and 1678 and 368 each already had a bid- one of those wildcard slots was 'blackholed'.

1323 is essentially sliding into that blackholed wildcard spot which should not hurt anyone else qualifying for CMP.

-Brando

[emmell]

And so very quickly with that I believe the venom and vitriol will be quelled.

Only after public apologies are offered to Mark, the Head Referee.

[Koko Ed]

Only after public apologies are offered to Mark, the Head Referee.

They don't seem to be in the apologizing mood.

[wilsonmw04]

Only after public apologies are offered to Mark, the Head Referee.

Truth.

[AdamHeard]

I won't edit or delete this post, I said it and believe in dealing with what you have said.

I'll revise my statement though. Intelligent was an unfair comment, as someone intelligent can easily be unreasonable.

We also don't actually know who made the final call. It was unfair to state head ref right off the bat.

I do stand by the fact that whoever did make the final call here is unreasonable, and such a call is just ridiculous.

Sigh. I look like an idiot.

Decision was made by a very reasonable person, with incorrect information and/or incorrect understanding of the information.

Frank is awesome for taking the blame for all of this, and making it right how he sees fit.

[scooty199]

So we're still waiting on those apologies.. right?

Because the Head Ref was just blasted in this thread.

[Karthik]

Sigh. I look like an idiot.


No, not at all. Just like Frank was able to admit that he made a bad call, you've publicly admitted that you made a rush to judgement. What you've both shown here is gracious and professional.

[Chris is me]

So we're still waiting on those apologies.. right?

Because the Head Ref was just blasted in this thread.

Literally the post directly above yours is doing just that.

I would like to observe that 1323 handled this situation extremely graciously and did not "blast the head ref" in their posts. If your implication is that 1323 needs to apologize, I just don't see it. Both members simply reported the facts, didn't name names, and even apologized for spreading a rumor.

[Cory]

Props to Frank for making it right and acknowledging that a mistake was made. I wish he'd done the same for 233, but take what you can get, I guess.

It seems like there should be a better way for Frank to interact with the interested parties at an event when an issue comes up like this, instead of just talking to a volunteer or two and only hearing one side of the story.

[scooty199]

Literally the post directly above yours is doing just that.

I would like to observe that 1323 handled this situation extremely graciously and did not "blast the head ref" in their posts. If your implication is that 1323 needs to apologize, I just don't see it. Both members simply reported the facts, didn't name names, and even apologized for spreading a rumor.

In no way whatsoever was my implication that 1323 needs to apologize. When they've responded well and reacted professionally, what would they need to apologize for?

I know they did not blast the head ref, I read this thread.

[Akash Rastogi]

Sigh. I look like an idiot.

Decision was made by a very reasonable person, with incorrect information and/or incorrect understanding of the information.

Frank is awesome for taking the blame for all of this, and making it right how he sees fit.

I respect this a lot, as well as Frank's blog post.

+1 for both being good examples.

[AlecMataloni]

I'm just glad it was a miscommunication, instead of a deliberate move.

[David Brinza]

I jumped into the lynching early Sat evening with a post which included uncomplimentary remarks toward the head ref.

A post made shortly after mine indicated FIRST HQ was involved in the decision.

I immediately deleted my post, with apologies, because it was based on partial, third-party information. I learned a lesson: don't flame on CD, especially if you do not have first-hand knowledge of the issue.

Kudos to MadTown for not flaming on CD, even though they suffered through the experience.

Maybe we all can tone it down when reacting to judgment calls??

[TKM.368]

Didn't want to wade into the controversy before, but now that it's resolved, hooray for 1323! We'll be happy to see your awesome bot in St. Louis.

We're slowly going to be uploading the full field videos we have of the regional if anyone is interested. Over the next few days, they'll be up at http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLk2gATc1wI5pC7CCGpikDeX99SJ-r-8Zo.

[Jared Russell]

Now that the dark cloud has given way to sunshine, I wanted to give a shout out to a bunch of amazing teams at SVR.

368: Your robot is easily one of my favorites this year. It is the best-driven swerve drive that I have ever seen, and every aspect of your machine is elegant in its simplicity and effectiveness.

1678: You are an assist machine. 254 prides ourselves in helping our partners maximize their contributions to each match, but you beat us at our own game. I wish F2 would have gone down differently, but I'm glad you'll be at St. Louis and you'll be a powerhouse no matter who else is on the field with you.

846, 2135, 670: You guys played really well as a team, especially in SF1-2. It is hard to adapt to a last second substitution, and I was thoroughly impressed by how close you kept it. 2135, it has been a pleasure to watch your team improve from the quals at CVR through the playoffs, and then through SVR.

971: Needs moar control loops. Glad we got the hot goal detector working :)

[kghaemi96]

All I want to say is this.

In any sports event or any competition at all, there are bad calls made. Many times whoever makes the call tries to ignore it or cover it up. Very few however are willing to stand up and admit to their own mistakes and make things right. Frank did just that. I respect him and any others that were a part of that decision for giving 1323 a chance to continue on.

Much more respect gained for FIRST as a whole (on top of the already overflowing amounts).

P.S. Congrats to EVERYONE that competed at SVR I really enjoyed watching the live stream last weekend!

[Citrus Dad]

Many rules this year have been left open to interpretation--there's no way to dispute that. It sounded like ALL of the involved parties had worked out an agreeable solution before it was overturned. Slippery slopes arise when there's no obvious stopping point. In this case, the situation is clear--1323 was not changing their minds, and all of the other teams knew that they were working on their robot. 1323 made a mistake--an easy one given FRC's paper system--and moved to reverse it as soon as they were aware of it. If someone interpreted this as a potential slippery slope, then we need to have a conversation about what occurred and what are the actual opportunities to exploit that type of situation. This wasn't one of them.

As I've said, the timeout system is easy to fix so this doesn't happen again.

I'm quite happy with the solution that FIRST came up with here. Hurrah to recognizing the need for fairness and providing a reasonable solution to prevent this from happening again. Thank you FIRST.

[Steven670]

Team 670, I am sorry you were placed into this situation. I know it must have been more confusing for you than it was for us as to what was going on. Thank you for being so polite about what happened. One of your mentors brought RC, our drive team and myself waters as we were in tears after the match. This was a true example of gp.
I'll just chime in here with a big thanks to 1323 for handling this sad situation as well as they could and welcoming us into their alliance. From our point of view this whole affair was total chaos -- this was the first time we have been called up as a replacement robot, and it took us a while to get our drive team out of the stands and the robot onto the field. Information to us as to what was going on was surprisingly hard to come by.
I'm glad we were able to contribute the maximum possible autonomous points, which is the one thing our robot was pretty good at. After that -- well the first alliance was a tough one to beat, and the last minute substitution made it that much harder. It's good to see FIRST come clean that a mistake was made and that 1323 has earned a wildcard spot.

[TKM.368]

We're slowly going to be uploading the full field videos we have of the regional if anyone is interested. Over the next few days, they'll be up at http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLk2gATc1wI5pC7CCGpikDeX99SJ-r-8Zo.

Full field videos up to 1080p are now uploaded. Sorry for those in Match 77.

[kevincrispie]

Full field videos up to 1080p are now uploaded. Sorry for those in Match 77.

Awesome! Thank you for posting these.