View Full Version : Starting configuration in the Goalie Zone
Hello, I have a question about the starting configuration in the goalie zone.
Are we allowed to start with an arm that is about 8 ft high at the start of the match? Can you cite the rule please?
Thanks!:)
AdamHeard
03-04-2014, 12:39
Just for a little exercise, can you cite a rule saying you CAN'T start 8' tall in the goalie zone?
HINT #1
Here is part of the answer:
3.2.5.6 G23
If a ROBOT is in contact with carpet in its GOALIE ZONE, and for only one ROBOT per ALLIANCE at a time, ......
But don't just look at the one place in the rules. Remember many places in the rules cover the robot and what can and can't be done.
Hint #2
There is another part of the rules that mentions "STARTING CONFIGURATION"
Happy Hunting.
tanmaker
03-04-2014, 13:34
There is nothing in the rules that gives a maximum height for the starting configuration. We talked about this at OKC and allowed a robot starting in the goalie zone to have an unlimited height. We had Frank Merick there too, so I'm guessing if that wasn't allowed, he would have said something.
Hint #2
4.1.4 R4
In the STARTING CONFIGURATION, the ROBOT must constrain itself such that no part of the ROBOT extends
outside the vertical projection of the FRAME PERIMETER, with the exception of minor protrusions such as bolt heads,
fastener ends, rivets, etc.
Nowhere does it state a horizontal limit.
Jimmy Nichols
03-04-2014, 13:59
I went back and re-read the rules and the glossary for STARTING CONFIGURATION and I think your interpretation at OKC was correct. I didn't catch that one.
tanmaker
03-04-2014, 14:09
Hint #2
4.1.4 R4
In the STARTING CONFIGURATION, the ROBOT must constrain itself such that no part of the ROBOT extends
outside the vertical projection of the FRAME PERIMETER, with the exception of minor protrusions such as bolt heads,
fastener ends, rivets, etc.
Nowhere does it state a horizontal limit.
I'm guessing you meant to say vertical instead of horizontal.
themccannman
03-04-2014, 14:17
Hint #2
4.1.4 R4
In the STARTING CONFIGURATION, the ROBOT must constrain itself such that no part of the ROBOT extends
outside the vertical projection of the FRAME PERIMETER, with the exception of minor protrusions such as bolt heads,
fastener ends, rivets, etc.
Nowhere does it state a horizontal limit.
It states the horizontal limit right there. "no part of the robot extends outside the vertical projection of the frame perimeter." That means the imaginary vertical wall that is 20" from your frame. There is no rule however stating that vertical height limits are any different in starting configuration than they are during tele-op.
RallyJeff
06-04-2014, 10:14
It states the horizontal limit right there. "no part of the robot extends outside the vertical projection of the frame perimeter." That means the imaginary vertical wall that is 20" from your frame.
The frame perimeter is the imaginary vertical plane defined by the outside face of the frame.
The 20" distance you mentioned has to do with the restriction during the match, not the starting configuration.
There is nothing in the rules that gives a maximum height for the starting configuration. We talked about this at OKC and allowed a robot starting in the goalie zone to have an unlimited height. We had Frank Merick there too, so I'm guessing if that wasn't allowed, he would have said something.
You do know there is a ceiling? Would that be considered contact outside of the field? :)
samfruth
06-04-2014, 10:26
You can extend as high as you want, as shown by our static 8 ft robot ;) . But the biggest problems we came into were doors and loading onto the field.
themccannman
06-04-2014, 15:00
The frame perimeter is the imaginary vertical plane defined by the outside face of the frame.
The 20" distance you mentioned has to do with the restriction during the match, not the starting configuration.
Whoops, I didn't mean to put in the 20", I was just referring to frame perimeter limits.
rich2202
07-04-2014, 11:20
Looks like you can have an 8' robot. Just be careful to always be in contact with the goalie zone.
In theory an opponent can push you out of the goalie zone. I would not call that a G14 violation because the purpose of pushing you out is to get you to drop to 5' to make their shots easier. Just because your robot is incapable of dropping below 5' is not their problem.
Another question as per the rules, can a Goalie robot be pre-placed anywhere in the goalie zone or does it need to start centered and move itself to defend the goal after autonomous starts?
Another question as per the rules, can a Goalie robot be pre-placed anywhere in the goalie zone or does it need to start centered and move itself to defend the goal after autonomous starts?
It may be placed anywhere, but you have to declare a final position, after which offensive (non-goalie zone) bots get to pick positions.
It may be placed anywhere, but you have to declare a final position, after which offensive (non-goalie zone) bots get to pick positions.
Ok thanks.
And just to cite a rule:
...
TEAMS positioning ROBOTS in the white ZONE have precedence over opponents placing ROBOTS in the GOALIE ZONE.
Which was later clarified in the Q&A to be like I stated (goalies must place first, then white-zone bots may (re-)position)
Which was later clarified in the Q&A to be like I stated (goalies must place first, then white-zone bots may (re-)position)
We actually had an issue with that in L.A.--one of the teams was playing goalie, but they positioned, their opponents positioned, then the goalie team repositioned, and then their opponents repositioned.... After a couple of rounds of that, one of the refs went over and kept them from moving the robot again.
Basically, once you've placed, your opponents can adjust--but if you adjust again, so can they. Do it too often, and get called for delaying the match.
They made us change after initial practice rounds, we now have to automate movement during autonomous rather than just being a static blocker pre-placed.
They made us change after initial practice rounds, we now have to automate movement during autonomous rather than just being a static blocker pre-placed.
Sorry, but there is nothing in the rules that says that you have to MOVE--in any way, shape, or form--during automode. You can, in fact, just sit there, regardless of where you are on the field--it's called the Mars Rock automode (you sit there and wait for Opportunity to come along). Whoever made you change that can go read the rulebook again--standard penalty for not knowin' the rules.
Sorry, but there is nothing in the rules that says that you have to MOVE--in any way, shape, or form--during automode. You can, in fact, just sit there, regardless of where you are on the field--it's called the Mars Rock automode (you sit there and wait for Opportunity to come along). Whoever made you change that can go read the rulebook again--standard penalty for not knowin' the rules.
We did movement to gain a "surprise" position advantage otherwise the offensive bots know where we will be at the beginning of autonomous. So perhaps I misspoke... they made us stop pre-placing the bot "Mars rock style" after offense set up.
Well we did it to gain a "surprise" position advantage otherwise the offensive bots know where we will be at the beginning of autonomous.
True, true. I was thinking it was because someone thought sitting still was illegal. You could always use reverse psychology and move during practice... and then sit still during a real match or two!
True, true. I was thinking it was because someone thought sitting still was illegal. You could always use reverse psychology and move during practice... and then sit still during a real match or two!
I doubt we'll get in practice but we'll see... good idea
Bacon&Waffles
21-04-2014, 22:37
Just as a thought is there are rule saying that you can't use an opponent's hot goal to move to their hot goal to block balls? I think that something like this would be able to really mess up the auton of many great robots.
Just as a thought is there are rule saying that you can't use an opponent's hot goal to move to their hot goal to block balls? I think that something like this would be able to really mess up the auton of many great robots.
Nope, no rule at all on that.
Note, however, that you'll still have to move over there...
Bacon&Waffles
21-04-2014, 22:49
Well so long as you have a really fast robot you might have a chance because if you block the first hot goal (or start there) then once the hot goal switches you will already know that it is hot before the other robot knows. Buuuut that would be insanely hard. Either way it would be interesting to take a look at!
You could also adapt the cheesy poof hot goal detection method to goalie movement
You could also adapt the cheesy poof hot goal detection method to goalie movement
If CheesyVision is used against 254 to kill their auto, the world will end!
If CheesyVision is used against 254 to kill their auto, the world will end!
Yup, cheesy vision is VERY interesting
If CheesyVision is used against 254 to kill their auto, the world will end!
Yes I have caused that many times. But somebody keeps recreating it. :ahh:
If CheesyVision is used against 254 to kill their auto, the world will end!
Ah yes, Teh Chezy-Pocalypse. Everybody in the stands turns into EJ and starts doing the #EJShuffle. Then Frank announces that he will never #BringBackTheDip and every robot in the world turns into SkyStalker. All robots are then deprived of their hats. Finally, things get so Chezy that the sealing can't hold us.
Jared Russell
23-04-2014, 11:49
If CheesyVision is used against 254 to kill their auto, the world will end!
Yep, we definitely had not considered this, nor do we have any other tricks up our sleeves. Definitely not. ::safety::
You could also adapt the cheesy poof hot goal detection method to goalie movementOf course, the shooting team could use that method to evade your blocks, even if they don't get a hot goal shot.
If teams take this to its logical conclusion, we can expect to see drivers doing really elaborate dances in front of their controls during autonomous.
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