cRIO 2015 : NI roboRIO

[alexander.h]

Hello! I've been looking at the new cRIO for 2015 (https://decibel.ni.com/content/docs/DOC-30419) and it seems to me (according to the picture) that the Digital Sidecar and the cRIO are now combined. Is this true? Thanks!

[mega900997]

Yes, the digital sidecar and the cRIO are now combined. I am surprised however that the roboRIO only has 4 analog ports. Can someone elaborate on that?

[RoboMo786]

Yes this is true. At the Waterford district competition, I was able to see a test robot that 1718 made for the 2015 control system. I believe there's also a new PD board, and an extra smaller board for pneumatic solenoids.

[Whippet]

Yes, the digital sidecar and the cRIO are now combined. I am surprised however that the roboRIO only has 4 analog ports. Can someone elaborate on that?

There's an expansion port that provides more inputs if they're needed.

[tStano]

There's an expansion port that provides more inputs if they're needed.

Yes, but as I understand it (Bomb Squad showed a test robot at midwest), the expansion port can't be used for analog ins. The guy started talking about how you could use I2C or USB for that, and I got confused.

[Whippet]

Yes, but as I understand it (Bomb Squad showed a test robot at midwest), the expansion port can't be used for analog ins. The guy started talking about how you could use I2C or USB for that, and I got confused.

That's interesting. I honestly thought we could use it for analog ins. This could be troublesome.

[Meredith Novak]

Yes, but as I understand it (Bomb Squad showed a test robot at midwest), the expansion port can't be used for analog ins. The guy started talking about how you could use I2C or USB for that, and I got confused.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. It was pretty noisy where we were talking. There are a total of eight analog inputs. Four of them are immediately accessible with four more on the expansion port.

Thanks to everyone sho stopped by and let us know your questions.

[KevinG]

A new RoboRIO board will cost less than $450 to purchase. That's fantastic.

[alexander.h]

A new RoboRIO board will cost less than $450 to purchase. That's fantastic.

True, but it will be available to all teams in the 2015 KOP anyways.

[Wendy Holladay]

Any truth to the talk that you can get the new RobotRIO in the fall, and then it will not be in the KOPs. If yes, how is that controlled cost-wise.

Also does anyone know how the software framework will change to support the new hardware?

[cgmv123]

Any truth to the talk that you can get the new RobotRIO in the fall, and then it will not be in the KOPs.

None. Every team gets one in the 2015 KOP.

Also does anyone know how the software framework will change to support the new hardware?

Java is based on JavaSE instead of JavaME. WPILib will substantially be the same, but will obviously change to handle changes in controllers.

[Jefferson]

Any truth to the talk that you can get the new RobotRIO in the fall, and then it will not be in the KOPs. If yes, how is that controlled cost-wise.

Also does anyone know how the software framework will change to support the new hardware?

I wouldn't trust anything you hear about pricing or availability unless it comes from NI or FIRST.

Java and C++ will use Eclipse. Libraries will stay much the same.
Check out the thread titled CRIOIII. It answers a lot of questions.

[Sunny Bat]

I wouldn't trust anything you hear about pricing or availability unless it comes from NI or FIRST.

The FAQ in OP's link gives the price:
All FRC Teams will get a roboRIO in the Kit of Parts at Kick Off 2015. Teams can purchase a spare roboRIO starting in fall 2014 for <$450 (pricing not yet finalized).


I, personally, am scared to see how many teams will decide to plug the RoboRIO into the old PDB. It has the same connector as the FRC CRIO II, however it takes 12v instead of 24v. Old PDB+RoboRIO = Death.

[NotInControl]

The FAQ in OP's link gives the price:



I, personally, am scared to see how many teams will decide to plug the RoboRIO into the old PDB. It has the same connector as the FRC CRIO II, however it takes 12v instead of 24v. Old PDB+RoboRIO = Death.

The connectors on the PD board are not the same, the connectors on the Rio are however. The current PD board has a 4-pin Combicon connector for cRIO power, while the 8-slot also uses the same 4-pin connector, the 4-slot uses a 2-pin Combicon connecor.

The new system uses a Wieldmuller push-in type connector on the PD Panel for cRIO power(and for CAN for that matter). This connector is built-in and simply allows you to insert stripped wire. A spring contact hold the wire in place.

The RoboRio still has the same 2-pin Combicon connector as the current 4-slot cRIOII for power.

While it is still possible to connect any voltage source to the RoboRio, including but not limited to the old PD board, it would be hard for teams to do this by mistake. If they do do this, it will not be because they were following any official instructions.

Hope this helps,
Kevin

[RufflesRidge]

The new system doesn't use connectors between the PD board and RoboRio for power (or for CAN for that matter). Both sides have built in Weildmuller push-in connectors that simply allow you to insert stripped wire. A spring contact hold the wire in place.

The RoboRIO uses the same 2-pin connector as the 4-slot cRIO on the RIO side. It uses the Wiedmuller wire-to-board connector on the PD side.

[KevinG]

True, but it will be available to all teams in the 2015 KOP anyways.

True, but if someone wants a spare or something for personal use $450 is a heck of a lot easier to swallow than the price of the current one.

[NotInControl]

The RoboRIO uses the same 2-pin connector as the 4-slot cRIO on the RIO side. It uses the Wiedmuller wire-to-board connector on the PD side.

That is correct, I mis-typed that part. Thanks for catching it. I will update my post.

[Andrew Lawrence]

Any idea as to when the CAD for the new control system will be available? I'd like to start designing systems that use the new parts.

[protoserge]

Any idea as to when the CAD for the new control system will be available? I'd like to start designing systems that use the new parts.

The case isn't finalized, but we have a photo (https://www.flickr.com/photos/robobees836/10261893233) of the hardware (0.25" grid size). I was pretty sure the board had dimensions in the NI documentation, but I could be mistaken.

We have additional photos here (https://www.flickr.com/photos/robobees836/tags/alphatest/).

[alex.lew]

Will any of the alpha test teams be bringing a demo bot to CMP? Will NI have some sort of demonstration?

[cxcad]

The case isn't finalized, but we have a photo (https://www.flickr.com/photos/robobees836/10261893233) of the hardware (0.25" grid size). I was pretty sure the board had dimensions in the NI documentation, but I could be mistaken.

We have additional photos here (https://www.flickr.com/photos/robobees836/tags/alphatest/).

Is that a new PD-board? looks smaller than the current one

[cgmv123]

Is that a new PD-board? looks smaller than the current one

Same WAGO connectors, but on a new board with CAN based monitoring.

[Gdeaver]

One down side to the new design is the elimination of the modules and break outs. We lost a digital side car a week ago on our practice bot. Cap on the voltage regulator was poped and no juice. We just swapped the digital IO module. On the new design we would have replaced the whole roborio. Big difference in cost.

[cgmv123]

One down side to the new design is the elimination of the modules and break outs. We lost a digital side car a week ago on our practice bot. Cap on the voltage regulator was poped and no juice. We just swapped the digital IO module. On the new design we would have replaced the whole roborio. Big difference in cost.

The roboRIO will be a lot more robust in that regard. It will be lot harder to fry any part of it.

[KevinG]

The roboRIO will be a lot more robust in that regard. It will be lot harder to fry any part of it.

Challenge accepted!

[NotInControl]

One down side to the new design is the elimination of the modules and break outs. We lost a digital side car a week ago on our practice bot. Cap on the voltage regulator was poped and no juice. We just swapped the digital IO module. On the new design we would have replaced the whole roborio. Big difference in cost.

See This reply to a similar concern: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1350597#post1350597

[jijiglobe]

In the official announcement video where they revealed the features on august 8th 2013, NI announced that they would give one free to every team in 2015 so we can assume that it will be KOP at least for one year after its release.

[Jefferson]

Will any of the alpha test teams be bringing a demo bot to CMP? Will NI have some sort of demonstration?

There should be something. Keep a look out for details.

[Tom Line]

There should be something. Keep a look out for details.

I haven't heard anything from the alpha team side of it, but since we drive and haul a trailer I've got no problems bringing ours. Anyone know who at Champs to contact to verify it won't cause a problem (i.e. - having 2 robots there, and where to set it + a display up?). Assuming we make it to championships, of course.

In addition, the new control system seminar that NI will be putting on at the Michigan State Championships will go up on 1718's youtube channel so everyone can watch it.

[protoserge]

I haven't heard anything from the alpha team side of it, but since we drive and haul a trailer I've got no problems bringing ours. Anyone know who at Champs to contact to verify it won't cause a problem (i.e. - having 2 robots there, and where to set it + a display up?). Assuming we make it to championships, of course.

In addition, the new control system seminar that NI will be putting on at the Michigan State Championships will go up on 1718's youtube channel so everyone can watch it.

Ask FIRST HQ by email. frcteams@usfirst.org. You absolutely will need HQ approval.

[Joe Ross]

NI posted more info and CAD models. https://decibel.ni.com/content/docs/DOC-30419

[dellagd]

Any word on a display booth for the roboRIO being put up in St. Louis?

[RufflesRidge]

Any word on a display booth for the roboRIO being put up in St. Louis?

I haven't seen anything yet about a display, but the App shows a Q&A on the FRC Live Stage at 3PM on Thursday and 10AM on Friday.

[wilsonmw04]

This looks very impressive. reminds me a bit of the old IFI system, but with so many more ways of attaching, well, whatever you want!

Looking forward to finding out when we can get our hands on them.

[alex.lew]

Any word on a display booth for the roboRIO being put up in St. Louis?
There is a workshop scheduled for C++ and Java on the roboRIO: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/firstplace/workshops-and-conferences
Nothing listed for LabVIEW, but I'm sure the NI booth will have info.

Looking forward to finding out when we can get our hands on them.
In the NI doc it says the roboRIO will be available for purchase in December, for ~$450

[cadandcookies]

Any way to tell NI that their Creo CAD file isn't compatible with student versions of Creo?

[Joel Glidden]

I left a comment on the roboRIO page about the CAD incompatibility.

[RufflesRidge]

There is a workshop scheduled for C++ and Java on the roboRIO: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/firstplace/workshops-and-conferences
Nothing listed for LabVIEW, but I'm sure the NI booth will have info.


I would presume the LabVIEW sessions at 6:00 and 7:00 would include roboRIO information. It would be pretty bizarre to have a workshop focused on programming for the cRIO.

[alex.lew]

From my understanding, the LabVIEW training sessions are modeled after the presentations posted here: https://decibel.ni.com/content/docs/DOC-33629
These are for the cRIO. The abstracts for the workshops make them sound more like an introduction to the LV development environment, with specific examples / tips pertaining to FRC framework, than new stuff for the roboRIO.

[Alpha Beta]

Their FAQ says
When can we purchase a spare roboRIO?
All FRC Teams will get a roboRIO in the Kit of Parts at Kick Off 2015. Teams can purchase a spare roboRIO starting in December 2014 for <$450 (pricing not yet finalized).

Was hoping to have it a little earlier in the fall to play with. More anxious than concerned about working with the new system. Seems like it should be a pretty smooth transition.

[crake]

Old PDB+RoboRIO = Death.

Not really. You are technically above the rated input voltage but we took care to cover this as teams may accidentally do that.

[crake]

Any way to tell NI that their Creo CAD file isn't compatible with student versions of Creo?

You just did :). I'll see what can be done. What version are teams using?

[crake]

Any word on a display booth for the roboRIO being put up in St. Louis?

Swing by the area around pit admin. You might see something!

[cadandcookies]

You just did :). I'll see what can be done. What version are teams using?

Creo Academic. The error message specifically is that the part was created with a commercial version of Creo and therefore won't work in the academic version. It's pretty easy to get around though, as a step file is included and Creo has no problem converting those. In fact, I'd almost say the STEP version is better, as it imports as an assembly with the pins as separate parts from the body, which is nice for doing wiring in Creo. Thanks! Can't wait to see the production model in person during the 2015 season!

[Meshbeard]

WPI is going to have a small demo bot using the new control system at championship. It's really cool.

My favorite part is the new radio, but that bit still isn't finalized.

[crake]

, I'd almost say the STEP version is better, as it imports as an assembly with the pins as separate parts from the body, which is nice for doing wiring in Creo.

Let's go with the STEP model. I'll ask that we add a note on the site about file compatibility.

[iKiel2012]

The 2CAN is also integrated into the roboRIO

[NotInControl]

The 2CAN is also integrated into the roboRIO

Not exactly.

A separtate CAN interface is included on the RoboRio. It is a 2pin signal connector and the roborio has a built in can terminating resistor.

2CAN is not on the Roborio. 2CAN is a standalone product of CTRE.

Regards,
Kevin

[adciv]

A separtate CAN interface is included on the RoboRio. It is a 2pin signal connector and the roborio has a built in can terminating resistor.

The Power Distribution Board has the termination resistor, not the RoboRio.

[Jon Stratis]

The Power Distribution Board has the termination resistor, not the RoboRio.
You need a termination resistor on BOTH ends of a CAN network to make it work. The RoboRio has one built in, always connected. The Power Distribution Board (at least the revision the Alpha Testers got) has one built in, connected through a jumper so that it may selectively be selected as the other end of the chain.

[NotInControl]

The Power Distribution Board has the termination resistor, not the RoboRio.

Not true.

For Controller Area Networks (CAN) to work properly, both ends of the bus need to be terminated.

This is because communication flows both ways on the CAN bus therefore both ends of the pair of signal wires (CAN_H and CAN_L) must be terminated.

The RoboRio has an internal terminating resistor that can not be removed. This means the RoboRio should always be at one end of the CAN Interface. The PD Board, has a setable terminating resistor by way of a jumper, this means the PD Board can be used at the other end of the CAN interface if the jumper is in place. However, the PD Board does not have to be at the end of the bus, you can remove the jumper and put another device after the PD Board, just make sure to add a terminating resistor to that device.

Hope this helps,
Kevin

[adciv]

My mistake. Still learning about the equipment.

[cadandcookies]

Let's go with the STEP model. I'll ask that we add a note on the site about file compatibility.

Great, thanks!

[jt_999]

Does anyone know if the roborio is REQUIRED for the 2015 season, or will we have the option to continue using the cRIO for a year or two?

[Mark McLeod]

It will be required.
The cRIO's will still be compatible and can be used for practice robots.

[adammiller3122]

It will be required.
The cRIO's will still be compatible and can be used for practice robots.

Do you have a source for the cRios still being compatible because when I emailed FIRST, they said that they could not tell me because it would be disclosing software information for the new season.

[Mark McLeod]

That FIRST answer addresses the question of legality under the 2015 rules which of course cannot be commented on before January 3, 2015.
We don't know what will be REQUIRED by the 2015 rules until January 3 when the rules are released for the first time to everyone at once.
There are no previews for individual teams via questions or otherwise.

So while neither I nor anyone else KNOWS the 2015 rules, I deduce that FIRST giving everyone a new control system in the Kit-of-Parts means that we will all be using it.
This is the 8th control system (http://www.team358.org/files/programming/) that FIRST has introduced. Every control system changeover in the past has completely replaced the previous system. I imagine this is because the old systems do not support the new capabilities and methods used for competition play. The systems only work together if the new system is degraded to operate under the limitations of the old system.

We're a Beta team.
One of our tests is that the new software still supports the old cRIO system.

P.S.
The Beta 2015 control system is actually being tested in some off-season events and it works fine alongside the old cRIO systems. However, setting up the communications means the mDNS system used by the new control system has to be disabled and the IP addresses hardcoded like the old system, and the new system has to be switched to use the old communication protocol.

[dawonn]

Has the programming software for 2015 been released to the public, or only the beta teams?

Is there any way to set up eclipse to program the old crio with java so that we can start getting familiar with the process?

Would any beta teams be able to post a YouTube video showing off the java programming environment?

[Mark McLeod]

Has the programming software for 2015 been released to the public, or only the beta teams?

Is there any way to set up eclipse to program the old crio with java so that we can start getting familiar with the process?

Would any beta teams be able to post a YouTube video showing off the java programming environment?

I suggest reposting your Java specific question in one of the Beta team threads on CD., like this one: 2015 Beta Testing - The Components are Here. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=130303)

The software is with Beta teams only under an NDA, because we're verifying that everything works as expected and helping to refine the user documentation. We're creating bug reports and the FIRST/NI/CTRE groups are generating fixes.
General teams will get the final software in the 2015 KOP along with the hardware it runs on.

I'd check to see what Java Beta teams are closest to you. They will be doing workshops that you can attend and see the programming environment for yourself.

2015 Control System Beta Test Teams (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/2015-FRC-Control-System-Beta-Test-Teams)
Map of Beta Test Teams (https://www.google.com/fusiontables/DataSource?docid=1R7qp4v8gWG-jSQ0Mxv_QmIlrZ3Z7VYoYfRVK21C6#map:id=3)