No Bag and Tag Inspection at Championship

[rich2202]

From First Championship E-mail

New! No Bag and Tag Inspections at Championship: With the compressed schedule for inspection this year, and the historically few discrepancies we’ve found at Championship related to bag and tag, FRC management has decided there will be no bag and tag inspections at the FIRST Championship this year. Teams may immediately unbag their robots upon opening their crates in the Pits, no need to wait for an Inspector to come by and approve.

[Rosiebotboss]

Per what?

Where did you see this? Post a link.

[TD78]

Per what?

Where did you see this? Post a link.

It was emailed to all the TIMS main contacts about an hour ago.

[Mark Sheridan]

I got the email too.

No update on the FRC email page yet: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/emailblastarchive.aspx

[Brandon Holley]

Per what?

Where did you see this? Post a link.

I just saw the same in the latest e-mail blast I received.

-Brando

[Conor Ryan]

Makes sense, all robots were shipped to the event.

It'll be a race to get done with what is known as the strictest inspection in FRC. #IHopeMyBumpersPass

[Rosiebotboss]

I hope Al Skierkiweicz knows. As an FSM/LRI, this is the first I have heard of it.

[TD78]

I hope Al Skierkiweicz knows. As an FSM/LRI, this is the first I have heard of it.

I hope so too...his name was at the end of it!

A Note From Our Division Lead Robot Inspectors:

snip

-Al, Ed, Jeff, Chris, Division Lead Robot inspectors.

[Ed Sparks]

All of the Division LRIs know....... the trick is getting word out to all of the teams. If you see a team waiting for an inspector, tell them!

[Jon Stratis]

I would assume Al knows, as there's a note directly from him, Ed, Chris, and Jeff immediately following and referencing it in the e-mail blast.

This will certainly make things easier for inspectors... I managed Bag and Tag for one of the divisions last year, and it was a huge pain to make sure we knew who had been signed off, who hadn't, who had shown up already, etc...

[Rosiebotboss]

Thanks, Ed. No longer freaked out!

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Yes, we knew. Do you know how hard it is to keep a secret? We are doing everything we can to help you get in ten matches this year. Please help us along with the process. Do not wait until Thursday for inspection. If you are making any changes, please come in and check your weight with the new parts on the scale to be sure you are not over weight. We have a record number of inspectors working the event this year and many more LRIs than ever before. Please check over my annual inspection thread as it might pertain to your robot. Be prepared! As always, we will answer any questions and assist all teams to complete inspection and meet the compliance of the robot rules. There is no change in the inspection checklist so Rev B will still be used this weekend. We will have a complete Q&A and will be inspecting with those guidelines in place.
While many of you may have been watching Chief Delphi and are aware of Inspection Rules and the Tournament, please make sure all of your alliance partners know and follow these simple rules.
In particular, G3 (safety), G4 (passed inspection), T6 (Red Card for not inspected), T8 (interchangeable mechanisms including changes for elims), T10 (mods need to be re-inspected) and all of Section 4, Robot Rules. This also applies to pneumatics rules using one and only one legal compressor, either on-board or off-board.
The inspection areas will be centrally located in the pit, as in the past. I ask that teams communicate with inspectors if they are thinking about making changes. We can advise you on how to accomplish your change and remind you to reinspect prior to participating in a match.
As pointed out in a different thread, you will need your driver's station for inspection and you will need to show your BOM to complete the process.

[Ed Sparks]

The pre-qualification activities were compressed in order to get qualification match play up to 10 rounds. I like the idea of getting more opportunity to play matches but the 5-1/2 hours (2 hours limited to 5 in pit) will be a bit stressful on those of us who are determined to complete inspection by 8:30 Wednesday. It will also be very stressful to those of you who want to make significant changes within the guidelines of the rules.

Please don't forget that your opportunity to access the division field in the form of practice matches is also happening on Wednesday. You do not need to complete inspection to participate in your scheduled practice matches but you do need to complete inspection if you want to access the filler line.

My hope is that most of you will go ahead and knock out the inspection process asap if you have no changes or minor changes to make to your robot. Even if you make some changes after the initial inspection, we can deal with it after the inspection rush.

Keep in mind that we are there to help you and to keep your inspection paperwork accurate, we're not there to be a royal pain. Keep an open dialog with your inspector(s) and if there's anything that needs special attention, let the Division LRI know about it. Most of the CMP inspectors are very experienced inspectors and some are regional/division LRIs. You should expect that they will notice things that others have missed.

If you feel that you'd like a second opinion on an inspectors call, contact the Division LRI. That's why we get the BIG bucks. No harm, no foul if you feel strongly about the interpretation of a rule.

Above all, try to have fun. If you see a team struggling, jump in and help and/or let the Division LRI know so we can divert resources to those in need.

[Jeff Pahl]

All of the Division LRIs know....... the trick is getting word out to all of the teams. If you see a team waiting for an inspector, tell them!

What Ed said! We have a tremendous challenge ahead of us on Wednesday afternoon to get everyone inspected so play can start on Thursday morning. Please make sure your pit neighbors know they don't need to wait for an inspector.

We are going to have inspectors stationed in the isles to remind teams, and to be paying attention to the amount of parts teams are bringing in, as the spare parts allowance limit is still in effect.

See everyone in just over 48 hours!!

[techtiger1]

You know guys a really easy way to fix this problem is to not have almost 400 teams at Championship to get inspected. FRC needs to look into this.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Drew, I know of 399 teams that will disagree with you.

[wilsonmw04]

Drew, I know of 399 teams that will disagree with you.

+1

[rsisk]

You know guys a really easy way to fix this problem is to not have almost 400 teams at Championship to get inspected. FRC needs to look into this.

:eek: what would all the inspectors do?

[ChuckDickerson]

You know guys a really easy way to fix this problem is to not have almost 400 teams at Championship to get inspected. FRC needs to look into this.

This is a great idea! We can look into this right after every team figures out how to read and follow all the rules and shows up to their regional/district events in 100% compliance with the robot rules. Thus inspectors will be deemed unnecessary. Of course, this would mean no modifications would be allowed and you would have to compete exactly how you unbagged at your first event for the remainder of the season. On the other hand it would also eliminate the need for that withholding allowance too since, well, you would be adding stuff anyway and there wouldn't be inspectors to check it anyway. :D

[Chris Hibner]

Drew, I know of 399 teams that will disagree with you.

Make that 398.

I agree with Drew - teams had to qualify for Championships so they've been through the wringer already. It's not like a team is going to rewire their robot or sharp edges are going to appear all of the sudden.

Perhaps just make it a weigh in and a reduced inspection, or some honor system form that teams can declare if they made any changes that need to be inspected. We already rely on the honor system for bag-and-tag, so it's not that far of a stretch to do the same for championship inspection.

[BigJ]

(to the last 3 posts) I'm pretty sure techtiger1's post is saying that less than 400 teams should be at Champs, not that teams shouldn't get inspected.

"not have 400 teams to get inspected" (the posted text) vs "not have 400 teams get inspected" (the current interpretation in the thread)

[ChuckDickerson]

Make that 398.

I agree with Drew - teams had to qualify for Championships so they've been through the ringer already. Perhaps just make it a weigh in and a reduced inspection, or some honor system form that teams can declare if they made any changes that need to be inspected. We already rely on the honor system for bag-and-tag, so it's not that far of a stretch to do the same for championship inspection.

Chris, you are making the assumption that all teams are of the caliber of 51, have a firm grasp on the rules, and that every robot rules discrepancy was caught at the regional/district level. If this was the case EVERY Championship inspection should take 15 minutes or less. In my experience, this is rarely the case.

[techtiger1]

(to the last 3 posts) I'm pretty sure techtiger1's post is saying that less than 400 teams should be at Champs, not that teams shouldn't get inspected.

"not have 400 teams to get inspected" (the posted text) vs "not have 400 teams get inspected" (the current interpretation in the thread)

Big J this is correct. Chris H I don't think this is a bad idea.

[Duncan Macdonald]

Everyone at the championship has passed inspection somewhere. I wouldn't advocate removing inspection but would be comfortable playing with and against robots that passed a condensed checklist. There was concern about how taxing the new schedule was on the volunteers is worth considering.

[ChuckDickerson]

Big J this is correct. Chris H I don't think this is a bad idea.

My apologies. I misunderstood the intent.

[Thad House]

Question for inspectors. We are changing our WCD from belts to chain on Wednesday night. If we start on the switch, but sign up for inspection at the same time would that help? When you guys come by the gearboxes might not be on, but the rest of the robot still be fully assembled for you guys to check most things. Or would you prefer us to complete the switch and then call you guys?

[ChuckDickerson]

I don't think anyone can speak for 399 teams.

I believe the point being made was that everyone at the championship has passed inspection somewhere. I wouldn't advocate removing inspection but would be comfortable playing with and against robots that passed a condensed checklist. There was concern about how taxing the new schedule was on the volunteers is worth considering.

Just curious, do you have specific suggestions as to what might be feasible to remove from the inspection checklist? I would be fine with the B.O.M. disappearing but what else might anyone have in mind that would speed the up the inspection process? Everyone wants to get teams as many matches as possible with the least amount of stress placed on the volunteer base.

Every year at Champs I have seen at least one robot over size or over weight. Hopefully all 400 teams will prove me wrong this year.

One would think bumpers should be nailed down by the time you get to Champs but every year I see bumpers still falling off on the field because they were not "securely attached". Inspectors don't want to see teams getting G20 penalties because of something the inspectors could have helped with in the pits.

We have to look out for safety. That's always priority #1 so all those things need to be looked at so this begets a pretty thorough look at all those ball launchers and pneumatic systems. We sure don't want robots catching fire either so we need to trace down those wires and look at wire gauge vs. breaker size. I'll give you wire color.

Every year inspectors still find Globe motors and other illegal motors at Champs. Is everyone OK with that or should we continue to check for illegal motors and legal quantities of legal motors?

Every year I find teams still using a 20A fuse in their compressor Spike. Nope, it's not a rule that you must change it out to a 20A circuit breaker but part of the inspectors job is to help teams out and we try to point out useful stuff like this.

I could go on and on but my point is the inspectors are there to help teams, do our best to flag safety concerns, and to make sure everyone is playing within the rules as best as we can. We all miss things but the more inspections you go through the more stuff we can find and the more we can help. Your team might not need the help but there are plenty there that do and appreciate it. If you build your robot 100% compliant during build season an experienced Championship level inspector should be able to blow through your inspection in almost no time. I can't really think of much on the inspection check list I would like to cut out but if someone want's to come up with a list and valid reasons why those items are not necessary please put it forward and I can guarantee we will at least consider it in the future. Just not this week.

[ChuckDickerson]

Question for inspectors. We are changing our WCD from belts to chain on Wednesday night. If we start on the switch, but sign up for inspection at the same time would that help? When you guys come by the gearboxes might not be on, but the rest of the robot still be fully assembled for you guys to check most things. Or would you prefer us to complete the switch and then call you guys?

Partial inspections are always welcome. We can checkoff on lots of other stuff like size, wiring, pneumatics (if you have that), etc. The weigh will need to be checked after modifications and I would probably be best to defer the power on checks until the robot was put together and hands weren't inside gearboxes. :eek:

[Jon Stratis]

Just curious, do you have specific suggestions as to what might be feasible to remove from the inspection checklist? I would be fine with the B.O.M. disappearing but what else might anyone have in mind that would speed the up the inspection process? Everyone wants to get teams as many matches as possible with the least amount of stress placed on the volunteer base.


Chuck - A few weeks ago we had a small problem here at the North Star regional you may have heard of - our field didn't show up until 11:50PM Wednesday night! Wednesday evening, not knowing if the field would even show up at all, we came up with a backup plan that involved crossing the street and working everything for 123 teams on the 10,000 Lakes field. That would have meant qualification matches starting at noon on Thursday instead of Friday morning, and a need to get through inspections for all 123 teams in 4 hours with only 23 inspectors. So, Al and I came up with a modified inspection checklist, designed to be completed in 15-20 minutes by a normal regional inspector (aka not an LRI or one of the very experienced inspectors we have at champs - those folks can perform a thorough full inspection in 20 minutes if they have to!).

Essentially, we started by removing everything that wasn't safety based. We then did some simplification of each section. In the end, our entire modified checklist came out to be one side of a single page.

Fortunately, the field showed up, we had an amazing team drive in to help set it up (they weren't even competing that weekend!), and we could keep the entire event on track like normal. That might have been the first time a team not competing at a regional legitimately won an award.

[Brandon Holley]

Just curious, do you have specific suggestions as to what might be feasible to remove from the inspection checklist? I would be fine with the B.O.M. disappearing but what else might anyone have in mind that would speed the up the inspection process? Everyone wants to get teams as many matches as possible with the least amount of stress placed on the volunteer base.

Quite honestly at Championship I would be ok with:

-Robot weight
-Bumper check (weight, height, mounting)
-Frame perimeter check
-Safety checks (check for current through frame, stored energy check, pneumatics power up run through)

Thats it. With the weights being taken care of at the scale, I would estimate an inspector could be in and out of a pit in 5-10 minutes.

-Brando

[Bob Steele]

Make that 398.

I agree with Drew - teams had to qualify for Championships so they've been through the wringer already. It's not like a team is going to rewire their robot or sharp edges are going to appear all of the sudden.

Perhaps just make it a weigh in and a reduced inspection, or some honor system form that teams can declare if they made any changes that need to be inspected. We already rely on the honor system for bag-and-tag, so it's not that far of a stretch to do the same for championship inspection.

beyond the fact that he was suggesting less teams and not less inspections...

As an inspector for a number of years, I can attest to the fact that there is a vast difference in the way teams get inspected from Regional to Regional and District to District. We see changes that need to be made at EVERY event I have ever worked at. At District CMP we still saw a number of robots that were out of compliance.... they had all been through two inspections already and presumably should have been fine.

There is a vast variety in the experience level of volunteer inspectors across the regionals and districts.

I can't see not inspecting at CMP. It could result in teams get DQ'd later in qualifications or eliminations when an inspector finally found a problem.

I recall that during the big Einstein issues we had a few years back a robot was found in the post Einstein dissection that had the radio power supply wired to the wrong power output on the PD board. This was even after CMP inspections.

I know that many teams (like 51 and other experienced teams) probably don't need this rigorous inspection because they have been inspected closely and correctly but there are always some teams that have totally illegal bumpers or other obvious faults.

[Jeff Pahl]

Question for inspectors. We are changing our WCD from belts to chain on Wednesday night. If we start on the switch, but sign up for inspection at the same time would that help? When you guys come by the gearboxes might not be on, but the rest of the robot still be fully assembled for you guys to check most things. Or would you prefer us to complete the switch and then call you guys?

As your division (Galileo) LRI, I'll answer this. We would prefer for you to get the robot finished and then come to the inspection station to weigh and start the inspection process. The way to sign up for inspection is to come and get weighed. It's more efficient for us to do complete inspections than to keep having to go back to a team for partial inspections. If things start not going as well as you would like with the swap process, then send someone up to talk to us and if we have a free inspector we may come and start the process, but that's not the preferred method.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Everyone,
I am asked to eliminate inspections every year under the pretense that teams have passed somewhere else at least once. If that was only the case, I could agree. At least half of the teams will be making modifications and improvements to their original designs especially if they participated in week one, two or three. Even robots I inspected during the season, will often turn up with significant changes during inspection at Champs. While we try to train inspectors to see and correct items during regional events, some things do slip through the cracks. You are competing in the "Big Show" and just like Nascar, your competitors want us to be sure your robot meets as much of the rules as we can insure.

[cadandcookies]

Considering what happened in Orlando, do we really want to be reducing inspection thoroughness?

Props to the inspectors at Champs and FIRST for doing everything possible to give teams 10 matches. I'm sure every team attending will appreciate it.

[Duncan Macdonald]

Quite honestly at Championship I would be ok with:

-Robot weight
-Bumper check (weight, height, mounting)
-Frame perimeter check
-Safety checks (check for current through frame, stored energy check, pneumatics power up run through)

Thats it. With the weights being taken care of at the scale, I would estimate an inspector could be in and out of a pit in 5-10 minutes.

-Brando

Add an area a team representative to initial stating "Our electrical and pneumatic systems are unchanged since our previous event." and we are at the same place.

Totally illegal bumpers or other obvious faults are...obvious. I don't see DQ's being more likely as they are reserved primarily for not following proper procedure.

I trust regional inspectors to vet out safety risks, and teams to attempt to follow the rules.

[GaryVoshol]

Everyone,
I am asked to eliminate inspections every year under the pretense that teams have passed somewhere else at least once.

Teams at the District Championships have been inspected at least twice before. Yet it it not just a trivial matter for them to pass the inspection when they get to the District Cmp - there have been issues at MSC.

The same would apply to CMP. While inspection should be easier for most teams, that's not always the case.

(Plus teams may have planned modifications to make before inspection.)

[Jacob Bendicksen]

That might have been the first time a team not competing at a regional legitimately won an award.

Who was this, and what did they win? Major props to them, but I'm wondering what they won.

[EricH]

Who was this, and what did they win? Major props to them, but I'm wondering what they won.

I'd bet on "Volunteer of the Year", or a SPECIAL Judges' Award.

[cadandcookies]

I'd bet on "Volunteer of the Year", or a SPECIAL Judges' Award.

They won a Special Judge's Award, and they were team 3018 Nordic Storm. Great team, and they've been a key part of growing Minnesota FIRST south of the cities.

[Ed Sparks]

I've been inspecting for far too long and have seen so many things show up at CMP that were just not acceptable. I'm not talking about insignificant things that don't make a hill of beans difference, but things that clearly give an advantage or just aren't safe.

How would you feel as a competitor if a robot or robots won the CMP with a device that clearly violated the intent of the rules and gave them a clear advantage? I suspect after so much work & effort on your part to field a legal competitive robot, you would be agitated. How would you feel if a robot caught fire on the field because a battery ruptured or shorted? How would you feel if, God forbid, some stored energy mechanism released during setup and a kid got hurt?

Inspection, to me, is as much about keeping us all in the same "sandbox" as far as the equipment we compete with. I'm not saying that teams set out to cheat, they just get real creative on rule intent and push the line too far sometimes or worse, they don't think the rules are all that necessary to read. As a competitor, I want to win fair and square and if my team doesn't win, I don't want to see that it may have been because the winning team gained advantage by not following some of the rules. Can you imagine NASCAR not inspecting the car's before a major race?

Last point ......... Too many robots get through regional/division inspections with issues. I wish we could get inspectors at these events with 6+ years of experience but that's not always happening. A new inspector just can't look at a robot like those of us with 18+ years experience and see the big ticket issues right away. The teams that get through to CMP need to know about the things that are wrong so that they are not destined to repeat these mistakes in the future.

[JesseK]

Is there a prize for being the first team inspected at Champs?

[rich2202]

the trick is getting word out to all of the teams. If you see a team waiting for an inspector, tell them!

How about taping a sign on each crate?

I agree with Drew - teams had to qualify for Championships so they've been through the wringer already. It's not like a team is going to rewire their robot or sharp edges are going to appear all of the sudden.

At Regionals, some non-compliance (non safety related) was allowed in order to let teams compete. One rookie team had their mechanism extend outside the frame perimeter. It would have been impossible for them to fix it at the regional. What do you do? Sit them out the entire competition? Or, let them compete so they can have the experience of competing, and see how their robot performs. This was an extreme example, but a lot of little things are allowed. And, as Ed said, a lot of big things are missed.

[MikeE]

I've been inspecting for far too long and have seen so many things show up at CMP that were just not acceptable. I'm not talking about insignificant things that don't make a hill of beans difference, but things that clearly give an advantage or just aren't safe.

How would you feel as a competitor if a robot or robots won the CMP with a device that clearly violated the intent of the rules and gave them a clear advantage? I suspect after so much work & effort on your part to field a legal competitive robot, you would be agitated. How would you feel if a robot caught fire on the field because a battery ruptured or shorted? How would you feel if, God forbid, some stored energy mechanism released during setup and a kid got hurt?

Inspection, to me, is as much about keeping us all in the same "sandbox" as far as the equipment we compete with. I'm not saying that teams set out to cheat, they just get real creative on rule intent and push the line too far sometimes or worse, they don't think the rules are all that necessary to read. As a competitor, I want to win fair and square and if my team doesn't win, I don't want to see that it may have been because the winning team gained advantage by not following some of the rules. Can you imagine NASCAR not inspecting the car's before a major race?

Last point ......... Too many robots get through regional/division inspections with issues. I wish we could get inspectors at these events with 6+ years of experience but that's not always happening. A new inspector just can't look at a robot like those of us with 18+ years experience and see the big ticket issues right away. The teams that get through to CMP need to know about the things that are wrong so that they are not destined to repeat these mistakes in the future.

It's been a few years since I inspected at champs but I do recall teams with very non-compliant robots, including non-approved motors, that had passed inspection at Regionals.

As we move to new and improved inspection documentation procedures perhaps issues such as these discovered at Championships (World or District) could be fed back to the appropriate Regional/District LRIs and used as a learning opportunity for the entire Inspection volunteer base.

[Boltman]

First timer here...Just two of us me and my son arriving on Wed (rest of the team early Thurs) to un-crate and get it inspected.

What to expect if we arrive at say 4:30PM on Wednesday? Super busy?

We park at the team parking lot..correct? Does Broadway turn right onto Cole to the parking lot from the airport not clear on the maps or do you have to go all the way around?

Is there a huge line just to get in after we park? Robot is already there I think.

Anything else we should know?

We already got valuable advice on the inspection process...thanks.

Just trying to get everything set tomorrow to go smooth rest of the team will be very tired next day getting in so late.

[Wayne Doenges]

Is there a prize for being the first team inspected at Champs?
Yes, you don't have to wait in line for the next available inspector :D

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Is there a prize for being the first team inspected at Champs?
My undying gratitude!

Rich, teams will be given some latitude while they are working to correct the issue. If you are thinking of Midwest, the team's mechanism broke and was removed before they could correct the issue.

Mike, We use these things to train our inspectors every year. And every year, teams come up with new and unusual items that test our skills at Champs. And while some may have passed at regionals, many are added at or before Champs.

[Ed Sparks]

My undying gratitude!

Worth the price of admission alone ......

[rich2202]

Rich, teams will be given some latitude while they are working to correct the issue. If you are thinking of Midwest, the team's mechanism broke and was removed before they could correct the issue.


It was the rookie team from Turkey. I saw their pick-up mechanism, and there was no way they could fix the problem at regional. It affected more than just the arm.