2014 Lessons Learned: The Negative

[Koko Ed]

What could FIRST stand to improve upon?

[Hallry]

Free corn dogs. Especially now that 254 won. ;)

[Steven Donow]

inb4thegame*


But in all seriousness, I didn't have much of a problem with "Make It Loud" until Champs. Some of the performances as part of the "make it loud" campaign just seemed awkward, even via webcast. I'd imagine it was more awkward in person.

"Make It Loud" also seems somewhat misguided at this point-I love it as a rally cry for spreading the word of FIRST, but what is the point of it? Get celebrities mentioning FIRST? Get 'non-traditional' companies involved in FIRST? Tweet #MakeItLoud? It's a great phrase, but to me it just needs some direction.


*for the record I like this game

[Oblarg]

It seemed most of the reffing issues and problems with penalties were absent from Worlds (partly due to them thankfully not calling G28 in the manner described in the driver meeting), but certainly many of the regional competitions suffered from poor reffing and large numbers of matches determined by penalties. While I think Aerial Assist was a fantastic game, future games absolutely must be easier to referee.

I don't have any real complaints other than that; everything about this year was pretty great.

[Loralyn P]

Something small that I would really like to see (and I have no idea why they didn't do it this year) is clarification on the rules of the Dean's List interview, and a better feedback sheet. Currently, there is no mention of the time limit in the Dean's List section of the Administration Manual, and the feedback sheet was the most minimal thing I've ever seen. At least put in a "you can improve on" section!

[Steven Donow]

Something small that I would really like to see (and I have no idea why they didn't do it this year) is clarification on the rules of the Dean's List interview, and a better feedback sheet. Currently, there is no mention of the time limit in the Dean's List section of the Administration Manual, and the feedback sheet was the most minimal thing I've ever seen. At least put in a "you can improve on" section!

Similarly, in regards to Dean's List, I was very unhappy with the way it was handled/done in district systems/the inconsistencies between different regions in how they determined Finalists.*


*I'm unaware of what FiM or PNW did, so I'm going off the differences in DL in MAR and NEFIRST

[Anupam Goli]

inb4thegame*


But in all seriousness, I didn't have much of a problem with "Make It Loud" until Champs. Some of the performances as part of the "make it loud" campaign just seemed awkward, even via webcast. I'd imagine it was more awkward in person.

"Make It Loud" also seems somewhat misguided at this point-I love it as a rally cry for spreading the word of FIRST, but what is the point of it? Get celebrities mentioning FIRST? Get 'non-traditional' companies involved in FIRST? Tweet #MakeItLoud? It's a great phrase, but to me it just needs some direction.


*for the record I like this game

The entire Make it Loud portion of closing ceremonies was very cringeworthy.... I muted by live feed several times because of it. I'd much rather we have some video or information being played about all of the teams on Einstein and maybe presenting the alliances one at a time to hype the matches, instead of going between random song performances and disconnected awards presentations.

Also, I think the closing ceremonies this time took a similar amount of time to last years. I thought the whole point of moving the majority of awards to divisions was to reduce the closing ceremonies time?

[safiq10]

Something small that I would really like to see (and I have no idea why they didn't do it this year) is clarification on the rules of the Dean's List interview, and a better feedback sheet. Currently, there is no mention of the time limit in the Dean's List section of the Administration Manual, and the feedback sheet was the most minimal thing I've ever seen. At least put in a "you can improve on" section!

As a dean list nominee I can agree with you on that! The feedback form was absolutely useless. I wish they would make it more like Chairmans!

[AlecMataloni]

Overzealous seat savers aren't going away, unfortunately. If you want good seats for your team at Einstein, you'd better have at least half of your team there. It's ridiculous how some teams send their parents over to the stands with a bunch of spirit gear and lay it out on a whole section of seats. I had more than one poor interaction with some of these people pre-closing ceremonies.

[Nick1912]

I will say that by week 6 the game really did get better, and the elims were some of the best I have seen in first, but one thing I do miss was the end game. It was exciting for a few matches but I felt like with about 45 seconds left in most matches you could tell which way the match was going to go. I hope to see the end game back in future years.

[rsisk]

Chairmans feedback forms at regionals. Wish they would scan them and email to the team contact. I never remember to pick it up at pit admin

[dcarr]

In 2014, getting a quality webcast is apparently a hard thing to do.

Except it's not. Please fix this. Baseline HD stream requirements for all events. Include equipment/connectivity/staffing in budget or find a team/volunteers who can handle it.

Multi-cam setups are ideal for the big screens at the events, but for online, a single full-field view is optimal. Perhaps offer both?

[bduddy]

Not having separate scorekeepers for a game like this was a huge mistake. Whoever made the call that the same 5-6 refs could watch for fouls and keep score at the same time obviously did not actually try to do it themselves.

[Nathan Rossi]

Having one game piece per alliance.

Now, on a championship level, having one game piece was perfect, it created close and exciting matches (how about those Einstein rounds!). However, at a regional level, it created a slow and frustrating game, especially during qualification rounds, the con outweighs the pro here. There are a lot more regionals than championships.

EDIT:
In 2014, getting a quality webcast is apparently a hard thing to do.

Except it's not. Please fix this. Baseline HD stream requirements for all events. Include equipment/connectivity/staffing in budget or find a team/volunteers who can handle it.

This please.

[asid61]

No endgame. The game was basically over after the first half; there wasn't really any way to bounce back because you would have to radically modify your strategy in order to start closing a point gap.

[Chief Hedgehog]

No endgame. The game was basically over after the first half; there wasn't really any way to bounce back because you would have to radically modify your strategy in order to start closing a point gap.

I disagree - did you watch the elimination rounds from each of the Championship fields? The finals from each of the divisions were awesome - as were the Semi and finals from Einstein. This game was designed for the elims/finals for Regionals and the Champs.

[Chief Hedgehog]

inb4thegame*


But in all seriousness, I didn't have much of a problem with "Make It Loud" until Champs. Some of the performances as part of the "make it loud" campaign just seemed awkward, even via webcast. I'd imagine it was more awkward in person.

"Make It Loud" also seems somewhat misguided at this point-I love it as a rally cry for spreading the word of FIRST, but what is the point of it? Get celebrities mentioning FIRST? Get 'non-traditional' companies involved in FIRST? Tweet #MakeItLoud? It's a great phrase, but to me it just needs some direction.


*for the record I like this game

I agree - 'Make it loud' is more difficult without direction.

[asid61]

I disagree - did you watch the elimination rounds from each of the Championship fields? The finals from each of the divisions were awesome - as were the Semi and finals from Einstein. This game was designed for the elims/finals for Regionals and the Champs.
That's true, but it would certainly make some of the regionals easier to watch. Champs is pretty unique, and it will always look cool anyway.

The large points-per-ball helped with building suspense though.

[s0uthw3st]

I agree, the livestream was pretty bad this year - though it did lead to some humorous "broken record" moments during the pre-Einstein speeches...

"Year after year---year after year---year after year---" :yikes:

But yeah, given the combined resources of NASA and FIRST, a HD stream shouldn't be hard to do, even for 8 fields (some of which aren't even running at the same time).

Also, the district system should probably be expanded further. California seems like an apt target for a new district considering all the regionals hosted there, or maybe the Southwest US (AZ, TX, NM, OK) given that Arizona is growing to two regionals next year and Texas has several regionals already.

[Jeremy.Howe]

This game was designed for the elims/finals for Regionals and the Champs.

I don't necessarily think this is a good thing, though. Most of the general public isn't at Championships; the public usually watches matches at the regional level. A majority of the feedback from the bystanders I asked, including family and friends I dragged to competitions, was that AA was hard to understand and a bit boring. Explaining the penalties to bystanders was difficult; this is especially true earlier in the season.

Most matches in AA, on a regional level, were decided by heavy defense or tough penalties. Rather than teams racking up big numbers and showing off their potential, most games felt like more of a grind. I just don't think AA was very public-friendly or fun. While the Einstein field was exciting, I think that a game needs to be accessible AND ENTERTAINING to the public. An end game helps in this regard.

Also, to jump on the bandwagon, HQ Livestreams please! c:

[s0uthw3st]

A majority of the feedback from the bystanders I asked, including family and friends I dragged to competitions, was that AA was hard to understand and a bit boring ... I think that a game needs to be accessible AND ENTERTAINING to the public.

I wholeheartedly agree - to get people's interest, you kinda have to turn the year's game into an elevator speech. AA does not work terribly well for that while still keeping the depth of the game (like the scoring and penalties) intact.

Now that I think about it, perhaps that's why there was no endgame - the referees were too busy monitoring scoring and penalties for another aspect to be added to the game in a manageable way.

[SharonO]

Overzealous seat savers aren't going away, unfortunately. If you want good seats for your team at Einstein, you'd better have at least half of your team there. It's ridiculous how some teams send their parents over to the stands with a bunch of spirit gear and lay it out on a whole section of seats. I had more than one poor interaction with some of these people pre-closing ceremonies.

It is sad that teams have to leave their current field before the division finals are over to secure seats on Einstein. It leaves very few spectators for the end. Even though seats are reserved for the Einstein teams, the teams that get knocked out late in eliminations don't get that priviledge (especially if you are the last division to finish).

[Harman341]

In 2014, getting a quality webcast is apparently a hard thing to do.

Except it's not. Please fix this. Baseline HD stream requirements for all events. Include equipment/connectivity/staffing in budget or find a team/volunteers who can handle it.

Multi-cam setups are ideal for the big screens at the events, but for online, a single full-field view is optimal. Perhaps offer both?


A full field shot on the webcasts should be very easy to implement. It's frustrating because from what of I have seen, the videos on TBA come from the webcast, so if they go to a close up, people who weren't there may never get to see what happened on the other side of the field.

[Nick Lawrence]

FIRST as a community was not ready for this game. The floor of the competition was far too many floors down from the ceiling. It created many instances where some of the best teams in the world simply struggled to get the W entirely because of their schedule. I can't imagine how painful that must have been for the students, parents and mentors on those teams.

But, this isn't just all on FIRST. It's on us as a community. We've made great strides in raising the floor of competitiveness, via initiatives like EWCP, Robot In 3 Days, etc, but we can do better. As a community, we probably could have done better with our neighbors to help them actually contribute to matches, rather than create hard feelings because a team who lost 20 days to snow couldn't hold a ball.

Everyone can complain about how 'the refs did this' or the 'rules said that' or whatever they want to say. We've all aired our dirty laundry on that several times, and I'm quite confident FIRST is listening. They've shown (especially Frank,) a lot more transparency this year, along with frequently responding to the community. They get it, and I'm sure they'll improve upon these issues.

FIRST could definitely stand to improve the inspection process and training. I can't count the number of times this year that I had to remind fellow inspectors that they are the first line of officials that a team meets at an event, and they have a responsibility to provide good customer service. It's been 23 seasons, and we're still hearing horror stories related to inspection. Also, the lack of no formal reinspection process reared it's head this year in Florida. In hindsight, it's kind of weird that we spend so much time documenting the initial robot inspection, and then hardly do anything to keep up with teams at the events. I look forward to this changing next year, hopefully with the new tablet system pioneered in MAR.

FIRST has their work cut out for them, but I'm confident that they're up to the task.

- Nick

[Richard Wallace]

It is sad that teams have to leave their current field before the division finals are over to secure seats on Einstein. It leaves very few spectators for the end. Even though seats are reserved for the Einstein teams, the teams that get knocked out late in eliminations don't get that priviledge (especially if you are the last division to finish).When 27 was announced as the newest member of the Hall of Fame, they were seated way up in the nosebleed section, having been eliminated very late in a nail-biter on Archimedes. Their video provided just enough time for them to make the long trek down to the floor, to their correct seats for the rest of the show.

[Loralyn P]

I wholeheartedly agree - to get people's interest, you kinda have to turn the year's game into an elevator speech. AA does not work terribly well for that while still keeping the depth of the game (like the scoring and penalties) intact.

Now that I think about it, perhaps that's why there was no endgame - the referees were too busy monitoring scoring and penalties for another aspect to be added to the game in a manageable way.

I agree about the confusion that AA can create in non-FIRST spectators, and even in students! There were a lot of rules and elements to keep track of conceptually, but when it got on the field, the game was usually slow and hard to understand if you hadn't poured over the rules for six weeks (I'm not saying all matches were boring, of course).

Also, it's kinda bad when many people agree that the Dean's List interview was shoddy. I was disappointed about how carelessly they treated this award, especially when it's treated in such high regard. It's no Chairman's, I agree, but it's important.

[Pault]

This game was, quite honestly, too hard. They made it so that if you wanted to put up a decent score, all three robots on an alliance had to be able to manipulate a 2ft diameter ball reasonably well. And one of the robots had to be able to launch it a good distance in order to make the match very interesting. Those are expectations which many teams just weren't ready for, and I don't think they will be for at least another few years.

Going a bit more generally, there was not enough forethought in the designing of this year's game and game manual. The examples of this have already been beaten to death, but we need to find a solution so that this doesn't happen again. Something needs to change about how the game is designed/evaluated. Maybe bringing some people with more experience on teams into the GDC, or maybe just bringing them in a couple of times when the game is in its final stages to point out the flaws. Some sort of simulation for how the game will go down would be great, but I'm not sure how they would implement it. I'm not sure what it would be, but something needs to happen.

[Sam390250]

I really enjoyed this game for the forced cooperation between teams, however I am sad to see how negative it made everyone towards teams who just were not top tier. It must be very frustrating for a top performing team to see their season end because of a schedule with teams who could not do much to manipulate the game piece, but it is also sad (and probably not all that inspiring) to see struggling teams receiving a lot of blame on outlets such as this.

[RonnieS]

In 2014, getting a quality webcast is apparently a hard thing to do.

Except it's not. Please fix this. Baseline HD stream requirements for all events. Include equipment/connectivity/staffing in budget or find a team/volunteers who can handle it.

Multi-cam setups are ideal for the big screens at the events, but for online, a single full-field view is optimal. Perhaps offer both?

In all reality, they could purchase go pros and the poles with a decent capture card and stream through twitch. You can have HD and with the fish eye we actually get a good view. Now add input to show scoring and it would be all set.

[jimbo493]

In all reality, they could purchase go pros and the poles with a decent capture card and stream through twitch. You can have HD and with the fish eye we actually get a good view. Now add input to show scoring and it would be all set.

I wouldn't stream thru Twitch though, too many ads...

[Alex Golec]

Similarly, in regards to Dean's List, I was very unhappy with the way it was handled/done in district systems/the inconsistencies between different regions in how they determined Finalists.

I'm speaking from the perspective of a Michigan volunteer here:

Being the first year of Dean's List interviews, we expected challenges along the way. Overall, the interview process went well and allowed us to add extra depth to how we assess nominated students. It also gave these students a moment to shine. I have a feeling that FIRST won't be getting rid of this process anytime soon.

For improvements, I'm only aware of how Michigan events operated and what we need to do better. I already know we need to improve how we communicate to teams about what to expect, and where their students will interview. That's something we didn't have established prior to March, but is on our radar for next year.

Scheduling will likely be a persistent challenge. So many of these extraordinary students are drive team members, or Chairman's presenters, or have other responsibilities at the event. Most events adopted a flexible sign-up schedule to work around these issues, but we're looking into how to make it better.

Providing feedback, as simple as it seems, is a rather challenging process. It takes time and thought to write good feedback, and we don't want to "sound generic." Time was a challenge this year, with the Dean's List interviews and the addition of multiple-event Chairman's presentations. Again, this is something that we'll be better prepared for next year.

If you have additional feedback specific to this process, please PM me and let me know. I'm working with our Michigan volunteers to provide feedback to FIRST about how to make the Dean's List process stronger for next year, and would like to hear perspectives from other members of the FIRST community.

[RonnieS]

Good point. Maybe time for first to make their own webcast hub.

[Amo10]

In 2014, getting a quality webcast is apparently a hard thing to do.

Except it's not. Please fix this. Baseline HD stream requirements for all events. Include equipment/connectivity/staffing in budget or find a team/volunteers who can handle it.

Multi-cam setups are ideal for the big screens at the events, but for online, a single full-field view is optimal. Perhaps offer both?

Please. Or at least make all of the streams mobile friendly not just the Nasa TV one which cut off in the middle of the most exciting part on Einstein...

[Chris_Ely]

In all reality, they could purchase go pros and the poles with a decent capture card and stream through twitch. You can have HD and with the fish eye we actually get a good view. Now add input to show scoring and it would be all set.

And input the event audio instead of the camera's mic. The FiM steams have good video, but the audio is just terrible.

[Koko Ed]

And input the event audio instead of the camera's mic. The FiM steams have good video, but the audio is just terrible.

Considering that lawyers troll Youtube and have had some of the videos taken down for copyright infractions this might be a good thing.

[Chris_Ely]

Considering that lawyers troll Youtube and have had some of the videos taken down for copyright infractions this might be a good thing.

Maybe just the MC'c mics then? So that people watching know what is going on.

[fresh_prince]

In all reality, they could purchase go pros and the poles with a decent capture card and stream through twitch. You can have HD and with the fish eye we actually get a good view. Now add input to show scoring and it would be all set.

This is exactly what we did at the Lone Star regional. Go Pro on a painter's pole into a capture card, overlay from scoring table into a USB adapter, and open source broadcast software.

[TheMadCADer]

This game was, quite honestly, too hard. They made it so that if you wanted to put up a decent score, all three robots on an alliance had to be able to manipulate a 2ft diameter ball reasonably well. And one of the robots had to be able to launch it a good distance in order to make the match very interesting. Those are expectations which many teams just weren't ready for, and I don't think they will be for at least another few years.

Going a bit more generally, there was not enough forethought in the designing of this year's game and game manual. The examples of this have already been beaten to death, but we need to find a solution so that this doesn't happen again. Something needs to change about how the game is designed/evaluated. Maybe bringing some people with more experience on teams into the GDC, or maybe just bringing them in a couple of times when the game is in its final stages to point out the flaws. Some sort of simulation for how the game will go down would be great, but I'm not sure how they would implement it. I'm not sure what it would be, but something needs to happen.

A few people have said this, and I think it's a great idea: FIRST should bring in the various 72 hour robot groups to beta test the game. Give the GDC some very useful feedback from some very experienced people, and give the 72 hour robot teams time to produce nice polished videos, preferably about the brainstorming and prototyping process. Most teams struggle with those parts of the design process.

[StillDefective]

I agree with the rest of you on the point of game play. I am a member on an FTC team, so I am not very intimate with AA, but I went to watch some matches at the STL regional, and honestly, even the finals matches weren't all that exciting. We left after watching about six of them.

But on the other hand, we had nothing to do before the finale, so our team watched the Einstein matches, and that was probably one of the most exciting things I've ever seen. Watching 254's 3 ball autonomous work flawlessly was an inspiration within itself. I was on the edge of my seat and yelling the whole time.

This game only works at high levels where everyone is capable of doing most everything on the field, but when that happens. God it's inspirational.

[Richard Wallace]

A few people have said this, and I think it's a great idea: FIRST should bring in the various 72 hour robot groups to beta test the game. Give the GDC some very useful feedback from some very experienced people, and give the 72 hour robot teams time to produce nice polished videos, preferably about the brainstorming and prototyping process. Most teams struggle with those parts of the design process.
Early in my career I had a boss who liked to come into the lab and try to break the stuff that his engineers were working on -- he would drive our motors and circuits harder than we expected, to see how robust they were. Often he would find failure modes we had not anticipated.

FIRST could find some people like that in the FRC community, independent of the GDC, to try and break the game. I think Paul Copioli has already volunteered to do that for free.

[Andy A.]

FIRST could find some people like that in the FRC community, independent of the GDC, to try and break the game. I think Paul Copioli has already volunteered to do that for free.

I've thought for years that the GDC should release the game to a few groups with prior FRC experience to develop the same questions that all teams do in the first two or three days of meetings.

At least half the Q&A issues could be addressed prior to release that way, and teams could get the manual as it would normally stand after the first update or two. It just stuns me that they released this years game with wording that made it possible to do stuff like truss and catch your own ball. How was that ever not identified as something every single team would identify as a possible sneaky tactic?

I think the GDC is just too close to the game as they develop it and can't/don't think of all the ways that teams will come up with to break it.

[dodar]

I wouldn't stream thru Twitch though, too many ads...

Twitch doesnt run ads, the streamer chooses to run the ads. Twitch is the perfect place to stream events.

[Cel Skeggs]

While sitting in the last rows of the first level of the seating on Einstein, the lights illuminating the audience pointed directly at our eyes, which was painful. I'm hoping that FIRST will choose a different method, of any, to accomplish the same task next year.

[Alan Anderson]

Crowd control could use a couple of dedicated traffic directors at specific spots in the pits. The robot paths to and from the fields were clearly marked, but the clear markings were on the floor and often couldn't be seen through people standing or walking nearby. FTC teams in particular kept wheeling their robots through the pedestrian walkway along the south wall.

[Koko Ed]

Crowd control could use a couple of dedicated traffic directors at specific spots in the pits. The robot paths to and from the fields were clearly marked, but the clear markings were on the floor and often couldn't be seen through people standing or walking nearby. FTC teams in particular kept wheeling their robots through the pedestrian walkway along the south wall.

FTC won't be a traffic problem next year but additional big robots in the tunnel will cause gridlock.

[Chris is me]

A lot did not go right this year. This was a difficult year for FIRST and definitely something we need to learn from and grow past.

The design of this game, specifically the rules / referring, was not well executed. The GDC seemed to adopt a formula where they create a concept of a game, think of all of the holes that could be punched in it, and "patch" the game with numerous penalties to try and shape the outcome the way they want it. The results were mixed at best. Some penalties left no room for subjectivity and forced referees to penalize teams harshly for inconsequential actions. Other penalties were so subjective that regionals were decided on how that particular head ref felt about that rule that day. As problems were identified, FIRST would fix some and completely ignore others. To this day, you can still damage a robot and end up with a net gain in points. You can still be penalized heavily for partially but not completely breaking. What constitutes "possession" varies wildly event to event.

To make matters worse, the way refereeing was handled was poor at best. This is not to say anything bad about the referees themselves; they did a fine job with what they had to work with in my experience. FIRST just did not think about how the jobs would actually work. In my opinion, what FIRST should have done is had one referee dedicated to tracking the ball of each alliance, recording possessions and zones. The other referees would then be able to completely focus on the other interactions in the game (ideally one interaction ref for each zone plus a head ref). In practice, you had four referees doing double duty as scorekeeper as well as rules arbiter, and consistency of possessions and penalties both suffered as a result.

One problem I do want to touch on, but may have difficulty putting into words well. This is not intended as a call out of any specific person or event, and I'm thankful to not have much if any first hand experience with this sort of thing. This year, there's been an alarming number of reports of teams and volunteers at odds with each other. Among the things I've heard: inspectors telling teams "I'm not the guy you want to p**s off" when asking simple rules questions, referees and event staff routinely making un-challengeable calls without even consulting the teams affected to get their side of the story, judges accusing teams of being "mentor built" when a specific student can't instantly answer a specific question... The list sadly goes on. I don't know how to fix this, or if I just happened to see and hear of it a lot more this year than others, but a lot of volunteers seem to be treating the teams as sneaky enemies looking for any way to game the system. This is bad - we all need to remember that we volunteers are all here to *serve* these teams, and to make the experience of everyone collectively as high quality and fair as possible.

The appeal process for calls needs to be overhauled. Some people and calls simply cannot be appealed in the current rules - for example, no one can ever override the LRI or head referee. These people are human too, and inadvertently make mistakes, and there's nothing teams can do about it other than hope the FTA is calling HQ or something. Even in that situation, twice this year alone teams have dealt with volunteers misrepresenting the problem over the phone to FIRST HQ to get the call they appear to be looking for. (This isn't new to this year, by the way - ask Wisconsin teams in 2010 about power tools...) I recognize life is not fair and that things will not always go the way they should, but some part of this system has to change.

The game design was not bad for high level eliminations; incredibly watchable. However, it was a nightmare for qualifications. Seeding was by and large influenced by strength of schedule heavily this year. In other games you could perform so well that a lack of great partners wasn't a death sentence, but in this game you'll find yourself in situations where there's just nothing you can do at all to win the match. I think this is the inherent down side to a "single game piece" game, which is a shame as single game pieces are much more watchable than a flurry of projectiles can be to the average spectator.

Finally, there is no good reason that fields do not come with webcasting equipment at this point. A GoPro, a fisheye lens, a pole, and a computer. Instant full field view for the Internet. For all the talk of "making it loud", FIRST should stress the importance of broadcasting events to the point that webcasting equipment is a part of the field as much as any other part of it. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't even cost that much.

I'm sure I have more that I'm leaving out but I'll leave it at this for now. Overall this year was not so great on FIRST's end of things.

[Brandon_L]

But in all seriousness, I didn't have much of a problem with "Make It Loud" until Champs. Some of the performances as part of the "make it loud" campaign just seemed awkward, even via webcast. I'd imagine it was more awkward in person.
*for the record I like this game

To expand on this -

Its difficult to 'make it loud' with the webcasts we have running the way the are right now. If I tell some potential sponsor, friend, or even my grandma about this insane competition I'm a part of where robots shoot frisbees or pass balls and score, then I show them a webcast, its not exactly exciting. Michigan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUUL97AQ_3A) probably has the best example of what should be considered the norm. The state of the current webcasts are a turn-off for anyone other then mentors/students that already know whats going on.

[Billfred]

Let's see...

-Aerial Assist was a great game dogged by implementation details. I don't think we have to elaborate further on refs, missed assists, fouls, and the like.
-FIRST really needs to put signs up at the key venue entrances: "Come on in! No reserved seating." It was better this year than most, but at crowded venues it's still an issue.
-While we're talking signs, signs pointing teams to the proper sections for Championship fields would be nice. I still have to peep into the seating portals to get my bearings, and I've gone all four years it's been in St. Louis.
-No free corn dogs! :P
-Championship inspection time on Wednesday felt all too brief, but then we were making some significant improvements. Grain of salt there.
-Maybe not a hard negative, but in 2014 we're getting awful used to smartphones. I'd love to see FIRST adopt Spyder or Megaphone (or both!) and get them a better pipeline for data. Or better, get that pipeline out to students to create better ways to display the data.
-I heard mild frustrations over the inspection spec from others, though we weren't as affected. I do think "inflated to size not pressure" as in other years is a better way to go.
-The fewer things that go "to the booth" for rulings from Manchester, the better. It seems like those calls tend to have the worst outcomes (though I may have a skewed sample).

I'm sure some other things will hit me when I've had a full night's sleep, but these are what come to mind right now.

[pmangels17]

Also, mobile compatible is a must for webcasts, some of us want to watch in school but we can't get through the firewall on our school network.

[Duncan Macdonald]

The appeal process for calls needs to be overhauled. Some people and calls simply cannot be appealed in the current rules - for example, no one can ever override the LRI or head referee. These people are human too, and inadvertently make mistakes, and there's nothing teams can do about it other than hope the FTA is calling HQ or something. Even in that situation, twice this year alone teams have dealt with volunteers misrepresenting the problem over the phone to FIRST HQ to get the call they appear to be looking for. (This isn't new to this year, by the way - ask Wisconsin teams in 2010 about power tools...) I recognize life is not fair and that things will not always go the way they should, but some part of this system has to change.



I disagree with the above. If the LRI or Head Ref aren't labeled the "final authority" the position is meaningless and any team can get a call to Manchester for anything from bumper rules to a missed possession call.

What we need are people in these positions who are willing accept input from their respective crews, not shy to consult HQ when they are unsure of something, and not too proud to overturn their rulings. The people in the building are in the best position to make most tough judgment calls.

[scooty199]

I wasn't at CMP sadly(One year there'll be a chance for me to volunteer or mentor a team) but I was at VEX Worlds. I love the webcasts for VEX Worlds and think they're incredibly high-quality. I also like how they have reserved sections for teams and have RECF officials and Anaheim OC event staff enforcing it.

[Chris is me]

I disagree with the above. If the LRI or Head Ref aren't labeled the "final authority" the position is meaningless and any team can get a call to Manchester for anything from bumper rules to a missed possession call.

You have a good point. That said, I think we could find a medium between absolute authority and getting every call appealed constantly. Perhaps some sort of system to reserve these reviews for extraordinary circumstances. At this point, the only people that can initiate a "booth review" are the regional staff, so HQ rarely hears the team's side of the story or point. I think this is what led to the issues at Orlando and SVR.

[runneals]

In 2014, getting a quality webcast is apparently a hard thing to do.

Except it's not. Please fix this. Baseline HD stream requirements for all events. Include equipment/connectivity/staffing in budget or find a team/volunteers who can handle it.

Multi-cam setups are ideal for the big screens at the events, but for online, a single full-field view is optimal. Perhaps offer both?

Since Google is a big sponsor, maybe FIRST could partner with Youtube to allow regionals to be streamed on a consistent video network (that provides options to do HD with minimal Ads!).

[cadandcookies]

Since Google is a big sponsor, maybe FIRST could partner with Youtube to allow regionals to be streamed on a consistent video network (that provides options to do HD with minimal Ads!).

Seriously though, that would be a great way for them to sponsor FIRST, considering that it would essentially be a drop in the bucket for them.

[dodar]

Since Google is a big sponsor, maybe FIRST could partner with Youtube to allow regionals to be streamed on a consistent video network (that provides options to do HD with minimal Ads!).

How do you get past by all the copyrighted songs? I dont want silent FRC streams.

[runneals]

Seriously though, that would be a great way for them to sponsor FIRST, considering that it would essentially be a drop in the bucket for them.
Yeah... Plus I figure they could get the equipment fairly easily (if they don't already have some they could lend out)... Although I do see a possible issue with their internet connections (some of the networks would have a hard time supporting HD feeds, while others could have a separate stream for each cam -- like BuildBlitz did).

I agree, the livestream was pretty bad this year - though it did lead to some humorous "broken record" moments during the pre-Einstein speeches...

"Year after year---year after year---year after year---" :yikes:

But yeah, given the combined resources of NASA and FIRST, a HD stream shouldn't be hard to do, even for 8 fields (some of which aren't even running at the same time).
Glad to see it just wasn't me & my crappy school internet connection :P Even the NASA TV stream was doing that too (which kinda surprised me).

[runneals]

How do you get past by all the copyrighted songs? I dont want silent FRC streams.

Work with youtube? They've only muted like 3-4 of my 100+ videos I uploaded from the KC regional this year.

[Chris_Ely]

How do you get past by all the copyrighted songs? I dont want silent FRC streams.

Just stream the MC microphones.
Any decent audio mixer should have multiple outputs in addition to the main mix. Send a feed with just the MC mics to the steaming equipment, and the full audio to the main mix.

[DonRotolo]

First Choice. Not the idea, not the selection - both are great. I'll even excuse the issues experienced with 2 site crashes (never did see that report on why, though). But the "OMG Who is faster to the trigger" aspect, making me have to be at a computer at that very instant. It was good that once you 'had' the item it couldn't be taken away, but I think a better system could be devised.

The game, specifically the inconsistent refereeing caused by high referee workload. WAY too much going on to follow easily. I understand that it couldn't really be automated, but way too many matches were won or lost by referee actions.

I am very much against the de-facto extension of the build season by the 45 pound rule (that's a whole robot!). Repair parts are one thing, essentially unlimited upgrades create an uneven playing field for resource-poor teams. In the Crate days, your first event was where you got to see your robot again, so it really really needed to be finished on Ship Day. Not anymore.

[runneals]

A lot did not go right this year. This was a difficult year for FIRST and definitely something we need to learn from and grow past.

The design of this game, specifically the rules / referring, was not well executed.

To make matters worse, the way refereeing was handled was poor at best.

I have 2 view points this year 1 was being an alum of a team who made it to Newton, while my other one was being a "mentor" of another team here at my college. This year we finished our second best in team history (26th at KC). I believe this game REALLY benefited those mediocre teams, while hurting those powerhouse teams (like the one I'm an alum of) where they were paired with teams that REALLY hurt them -- although Titanium had a SWEET strategy that I absolutely LOVED where they passed to every team.

The rules DEFINITELY need to be set in stone & all calls need to written down to be set in stone to allow for consistency.

[akoscielski3]

I would like to see the Dean's List regional/district interviews held on Thursday rather then on Friday.

This year 1114 nominated both of our drivers for the award, and it was extremely hard to get a interview time slot while we weren't going to conflict with any matches. We also needed to hope that matches were held on time, which they were not (as the scorekeeper I will take some blame for that).

I know that judges don't usually come in on Thursday, but finding a few that will come in Thursday will be very helpful for the drivers being nominated.

- Aaron

[Aren Siekmeier]

In 2014, getting a quality webcast is apparently a hard thing to do.

Except it's not. Please fix this. Baseline HD stream requirements for all events. Include equipment/connectivity/staffing in budget or find a team/volunteers who can handle it.

Multi-cam setups are ideal for the big screens at the events, but for online, a single full-field view is optimal. Perhaps offer both?

This year we got a full field setup, though low resolution, of North Star up and running using a GoPro with a wide angle lens. Since then we've done a little research into ways to make this cheaper and more portable. The GoPro (or similar) provides up to a 170 degree field of view with a special lens, which can see the full field from only 3 feet away. It also streams in HD over its HDMI output, but this requires an HDMI capture card, bringing the price tag up to around $500 for camera and capture equipment. We ended up finding this camera (http://www.amazon.com/Genius-120-degree-Conference-WideCam-F100/dp/B0080CE5M4) with a 120 degree field of view (full field coverage from 15 feet away) and HD streaming ability over USB, all for just $40. We use the powerful open source OBS (https://obsproject.com/) streaming software, which supports chromakeying for the FMS scoreboard overlay, multiple layers for multiple video inputs, selecting between audio channels, and many other options. OBS also supports most standard streaming hosts: we have so far used it with Justin.TV with success.

While we haven't tested any of this new equipment yet, we hope to in the offseason and next season. There are also several others (1678, FiM, etc.) who have developed their own full field streaming. I am hoping in the next year we can develop some standard set of equipment and software that could possibly be shipped with each FRC field and staffed by event volunteers in order to make HD full field coverage a reality for every event.

[tStano]

1. Championship webcast was pretty bad

2. Pedestal: Perhaps it didn't need to be automated. Perhaps game should have paused and given it time to light if it became an obvious problem. Would make for less replays.

3. Replays were (in my experience) handled poorly.
a. I want a ruling from the GDC on whether replays are supposed to happen only when the winning/losing of the match is affected, or just any time there's a field fault.
b. If theres an obvious fault, stop the match. No need to have the robots go through all that wear before telling them to start over.
c. When there's a replay, let the teams know ASAP, not immediately before the match when their already set up.

4.Refs/scorekeepers overworked. :deadhorse:
a.Rules were super subjective
i.Called differently not just between events but between quals/elims, and even sides of the field.
b. Too many things to watch: Bring in more refs

5. That thing with the balls bouncing out in week 1. That ruined team's seasons who could only afford one event, and it happened to be week 1. I think some sort of beta test of the game is a really good idea.

6. Low level play was very boring. Herding needed a more defined, easier to do definition, and it could have become a legitimate strategy, making low-level scores at least rise.

7. Not nearly enough calls for damage inside frame perimeter. Those bent cylinders I saw in the first few weeks were really scary.

8. Game, though fun, was too complex. I could not explain to my friends not in robotics what I was spending so much of my life on. It was hard for spectators, and even teams to grasp. "You get points for that(assisting)?", "You can cross the field?", are some things I heard from alliance member drive teams. Maybe there should be like a smaller, even less lawyery manual with just super basic rules, so drive team can read it without reading a book.

9. Dean's list interviews were a good addition, but it was very unclear what was going to be done there. It varied from event to event as well. Maybe there needs to be a defined set of questions, or maybe it should be asking questions to clarify the essay. Whatever it is, it should be predefined. Also, yeah, drive team and dean's list interview was hard. Super stressful.

[JeffersonMartin]

I am very much against the de-facto extension of the build season by the 45 pound rule (that's a whole robot!). Repair parts are one thing, essentially unlimited upgrades create an uneven playing field for resource-poor teams. In the Crate days, your first event was where you got to see your robot again, so it really really needed to be finished on Ship Day. Not anymore.
I have to disagree on this one. Due to the bad weather this year, our team lost 10+ days during the build period. The 45lbs was crucial to us actually being able to have a shooter this year. I'm actually really glad that FIRST was able to notice this problem, and address it.

[ElvisMom]

- Human player - at regional events some teams were not prepared, had not even identified a human player at the start of match play on Friday. This doesn't require special technical skills or manufacturing equipment. Coaches - read the manual and prepare the kids. Experienced teams - when you ask teams if they need help with anything, don't forget to talk to their human player.

-Computer access at events, especially champs - having a few kiosks with internet access available for quick use would be very helpful. Had a couple of occasions where adults on the team just needed to access something for work and a smartphone wouldn't do the trick. In one instance we stopped in the business center, but having a few kiosks scattered around would be great.

-How do you notify FIRST of issues at events - for instance, on Archimedes after lunch on Saturday something changed with the sound. Became very tough to hear our field but Newton was very loud. Nice message periodically on the screens would have been helpful - "Have an issue during event text XXXXX or tweet @XXXX"

-Agree with the comments on playtesting the game by select folks ahead of time. But also wonder about collaboration with some of the folks in the community who are doing so much with game data and statistics, etc. Hope their insights are being or can be leveraged in some way - resources like FRC Spyder and FRC Mega and The Blue Alliance are such a help to teams and mentors. I hope FIRST already has or finds ways to tap into their creativity to strengthen and extend both sides of the equation.

[Aren Siekmeier]

I am very much against the de-facto extension of the build season by the 45 pound rule (that's a whole robot!). Repair parts are one thing, essentially unlimited upgrades create an uneven playing field for resource-poor teams. In the Crate days, your first event was where you got to see your robot again, so it really really needed to be finished on Ship Day. Not anymore.

In the crate days, we still had at least 30 lbs each year of withholding. In fact, in the last crate year (2010) we had 60(!) lbs, due to poor weather in the Northeast. Repair parts and upgrade parts are identical for the purposes of the weight limit brought in to an event.

A multiple event model is the one that gives lower-resource teams the chance to learn something from competition and come back and improve. The huge success of district models spreading across the country is a testament to this. However, if there is no opportunity to continue development after bag and between multiple regionals or district events based on lessons learned, teams can't learn these lessons that make multiple events so valuable.

It's hard to debate that the most successful programs, both in terms of robot performance and in terms of student and community impact, run year round. The 6 week build forces mentors, students, and other team supporters to burn themselves out in a short period of time to beat a fictitious deadline.

[tStano]

Practice fields at regionals really need to be more to spec. The one at Midwest didn't even have a correct auto line marked. The one in Milwaukee had too short a ceiling to really do truss shots. The low goals were not nearly robust enough to support the strategy where you ram into them to line up.

[EricH]

In the crate days, we still had at least 30 lbs each year of withholding. In fact, in the last crate year (2010) we had 60(!) lbs, due to poor weather in the Northeast. Repair parts and upgrade parts are identical for the purposes of the weight limit brought in to an event.


Actually, back in MY crate days, we had unlimited and no withholding.

Replacement parts were pretty much unlimited. Upgrade parts were limited, I forget just how. However, the TIME you had to make 'em all was limited (at least for a few years) by this thing called a Fix-It window. Think a district event unbag time without robot access. (And yes, folks complained about the fix-it windows.)


My biggest negative that I haven't seen yet: Catching was undervalued by the GDC. Another 5-10 points, and I think the game could have been even MORE exciting. As it was, very few teams even had the capability showing, and even fewer tried it.

[aldaeron]

While we are talking about streaming - can the default score screen please be updated so the remaining time is legible to those without a telescope? I think there is more than enough room to put another large time box between the red and blue score boxes.

Also adding a large format LED count down clock visible to drivers behind the wall (but not in their way) would be very useful. In years past I have seen robots ready to score but stuck with a game piece because time expired (instead of the hail mary shot I want to see!)

-matto-

[EricH]

Also adding a large format LED count down clock visible to drivers behind the wall (but not in their way) would be very useful.

There is one. There are 4 LED displays on each end of the field, visible from the other end of the field. Three are team numbers. One, as close to the middle as possible, is a countdown clock--auto, teleop, timeout if there is one called.

[aldaeron]

There is one. There are 4 LED displays on each end of the field, visible from the other end of the field. Three are team numbers. One, as close to the middle as possible, is a countdown clock--auto, teleop, timeout if there is one called.

That is true, but not what I was going for (very hard to glance at while driving). I was thinking it would sit on the surface where you set your driver station or down low somewhere on the plexiglass wall facing into each driver station (6 total - 1 per team).

[Duncan Macdonald]

We (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1378552&postcount=8) need (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1362320&postcount=76) better (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1369366&postcount=14) standings (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1358928&postcount=12) publishing (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1351356&postcount=57).

[Abhishek R]

That is true, but not what I was going for (very hard to glance at while driving). I was thinking it would sit on the surface where you set your driver station or down low somewhere on the plexiglass wall facing into each driver station (6 total - 1 per team).

This is just my opinion, but I like the clocks at the end of the fields. I can look at them without having to take my eyes off the field; it's a smaller change to look at the robot, across the field, then back at the robot than robot-driver station-robot.

[Navid Shafa]

We (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1378552&postcount=8) need (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1362320&postcount=76) better (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1369366&postcount=14) standings (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1358928&postcount=12) publishing (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1351356&postcount=57).

Definitely going to second this, teams should be able to know match results and rankings at any time (Especially at Championships).

FMS/FTP Problems are painful.

[Aren Siekmeier]

We (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1378552&postcount=8) need (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1362320&postcount=76) better (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1369366&postcount=14) standings (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1358928&postcount=12) publishing (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1351356&postcount=57).

Sort of related: Anyone know what happened to Spyder for Archimedes on Friday night? Somehow about 100 of the matches got deleted and there were only 22 teams in the division... Kind of threw me off.

[ajd]

The song they played ("you're beautiful..." or something) to introduce Lynn Tilton during the Championship closing ceremony was unacceptable.

[aditya29]

Sort of related: Anyone know what happened to Spyder for Archimedes on Friday night? Somehow about 100 of the matches got deleted and there were only 22 teams in the division... Kind of threw me off.

Well I think Spyder just pulls data from the respective event websites, so I don't think it's usually anything on Spyder's end when things like this happen. I noticed something similar with Newton sometime on Friday. I think this may have been after the FMS stopped automatically updating scores, so I'm guessing they reset the system, and it took time to repopulate the data. I noticed that teams started appearing again in the standings after they played their next match.

[dag0620]

Not a definitive negative, but something noticed to pass along.

Chocolate by the 1975, was one of the standardized stingers for GP Award at Regional and District events this year.

While I didn't have a huge issue with it, several people had mentioned to me they were surprised a song with the subject matter contained in that song was played at a FIRST event, especially for the GP Award.

Hopefully when the stinger list is set next year, someone else form HQ can just double check to make sure songs don't have meanings and content that aren't immediately obvious.

[rick.oliver]

... Also adding a large format LED count down clock visible to drivers behind the wall (but not in their way) would be very useful. In years past I have seen robots ready to score but stuck with a game piece because time expired (instead of the hail mary shot I want to see!)

Ummm, that is why there is a coach on the drive team and one of that persons primary responsibilities.

[Chris is me]

I have one more random negative I really want to discuss.

Why are practice day matches from 10 AM to 4 PM??? They should be 12 to 6 PM instead.

In my five seasons on 2791, we have never, ever been to a practice match before noon. Regardless of how few or how many upgrades we had, getting situated and then inspected would always be the first thing on our minds. Maybe a half dozen robots actually make it to the field before noon.

On top of that, practice matches end super early, at 4 or so! This means teams doing serious upgrades maybe get one match. Then from 4-7, when your robot is *actually* ready to go, you can do nothing. The practice field is already full (and depending on the event may already be full for the NEXT DAY), your robot is ready to go but you have nowhere to use it, so you can either twiddle your thumbs in the pits or go home way early. If we shifted the matches 12-6, field volunteers would be working for the same amount of time, more teams would make it on the field, and everyone would get more practice.

[Oblarg]

I have one more random negative I really want to discuss.

Why are practice day matches from 10 AM to 4 PM??? They should be 12 to 6 PM instead.

In my five seasons on 2791, we have never, ever been to a practice match before noon. Regardless of how few or how many upgrades we had, getting situated and then inspected would always be the first thing on our minds. Maybe a half dozen robots actually make it to the field before noon.

On top of that, practice matches end super early, at 4 or so! This means teams doing serious upgrades maybe get one match. Then from 4-7, when your robot is *actually* ready to go, you can do nothing. The practice field is already full (and depending on the event may already be full for the NEXT DAY), your robot is ready to go but you have nowhere to use it, so you can either twiddle your thumbs in the pits or go home way early. If we shifted the matches 12-6, field volunteers would be working for the same amount of time, more teams would make it on the field, and everyone would get more practice.

I can get behind this.

[wilsonmw04]

The total lack of feedback from World Chairman's submissions. To not get any feedback at all is a total let down. How is a team supposed to improve when they don't get the feedback needed to see where that improvement needs to happen?

[JuliaGreen]

As a person who spends time in the stands -

Can we please, please, please have a larger font for the match number?
Can it be the same size as the score?

If you are on the field, you can sometimes see the match number on the display. If you are in the stands, you need a pair of binoculars.

I know this request has been made before - thanks for listening to it again!

[cadandcookies]

The song they played ("you're beautiful..." or something) to introduce Lynn Tilton during the Championship closing ceremony was unacceptable.

While I personally strongly dislike that song, I don't think it's any worse than the majority of garbage that gets played at competitions. I did expect Einstein to have a bit more class though.

[KevinG]

Most of the issues were already covered, but I'll post a few more that bugged me:

1. The bumper rules, specifically the requirement that it be solid "hardwood". I had one rookie team that almost had to run to Home Depot to build all new bumpers because their 1x6 backing was solid pine and not oak. The LRI stepped in and approved their bumpers. I think that just mandating that the backing be solid wood, and not particle board or plywood, would be sufficient.

2. As others have said I would appreciate better webcasting. The overall match presentation could use a facelift, including better visibility about time remaining and the match number.

3. The issues with the game and refs have been well covered. I think the GDC will take this stuff into account next year.

I have to disagree on this one. Due to the bad weather this year, our team lost 10+ days during the build period. The 45lbs was crucial to us actually being able to have a shooter this year. I'm actually really glad that FIRST was able to notice this problem, and address it.

I agree. That 45 pounds was the difference between my team having a rolling chassis and a functional (if poorly designed) catapult arm.

I have one more random negative I really want to discuss.

Why are practice day matches from 10 AM to 4 PM??? They should be 12 to 6 PM instead.

In my five seasons on 2791, we have never, ever been to a practice match before noon. Regardless of how few or how many upgrades we had, getting situated and then inspected would always be the first thing on our minds. Maybe a half dozen robots actually make it to the field before noon.

On top of that, practice matches end super early, at 4 or so! This means teams doing serious upgrades maybe get one match. Then from 4-7, when your robot is *actually* ready to go, you can do nothing. The practice field is already full (and depending on the event may already be full for the NEXT DAY), your robot is ready to go but you have nowhere to use it, so you can either twiddle your thumbs in the pits or go home way early. If we shifted the matches 12-6, field volunteers would be working for the same amount of time, more teams would make it on the field, and everyone would get more practice.

This is a good idea.

[BigJ]

Most of the issues were already covered, but I'll post a few more that bugged me:

1. The bumper rules, specifically the requirement that it be solid "hardwood". I had one rookie team that almost had to run to Home Depot to build all new bumpers because their 1x6 backing was solid pine and not oak. The LRI stepped in and approved their bumpers. I think that just mandating that the backing be solid wood, and not particle board or plywood, would be sufficient.

...


Actually, the rules do not quote "hardwood".


BUMPERS must be constructed as follows...

A. be backed by ¾ in. (nominal) thick by 5 in. (± ½ in) tall plywood or solid, robust wood.

[notmattlythgoe]

I noticed an unfortunate trend at the championship of people coming to and from the stands while matches are in play. I unfortunately lost my cool and yelled at a team in front of us after it happened almost every single match and having already asked twice for them to sit down while our team was on the field playing. It makes it very difficult to watch matches, let alone scout teams when people are constantly stand up talking to people and walking up and down the steps. I thought this was a common courtesy know across FIRST but I guess I was wrong.

Please talk to your team about being courteous to the teams around you, wait until between matches to move around in the stands. And if you absolutely have to get up during a match do so as quickly as possible and don't stop to talk to someone along the way.

To the team I yelled at, I apologize.

[jee7s]

...

1. The bumper rules, specifically the requirement that it be solid "hardwood". I had one rookie team that almost had to run to Home Depot to build all new bumpers because their 1x6 backing was solid pine and not oak. The LRI stepped in and approved their bumpers. I think that just mandating that the backing be solid wood, and not particle board or plywood, would be sufficient.

...


As BigJ notes, the rule says plywood or solid robust wood. And, in terms of the application, I think plywood is the preferable material. Unlike a board, the plywood doesn't have a continuous grain so it's less likely to split on impact. Oak is way too expensive a material to mandate team use. I'd be interested to know who got the interpretation that it needed to be a hard (like oak, mahogany, walnut, etc) wood. Save that stuff for your nice tables at home and use plywood or OSB on the robot. IMHO.

[Mr V]

Save that stuff for your nice tables at home and use plywood or OSB on the robot. IMHO.

OSB is not suitable since it does not hold screws or staples very well at all.

[cadandcookies]

As BigJ notes, the rule says plywood or solid robust wood. And, in terms of the application, I think plywood is the preferable material. Unlike a board, the plywood doesn't have a continuous grain so it's less likely to split on impact. Oak is way too expensive a material to mandate team use. I'd be interested to know who got the interpretation that it needed to be a hard (like oak, mahogany, walnut, etc) wood. Save that stuff for your nice tables at home and use plywood or OSB on the robot. IMHO.

This probably isn't the right place for discussing bumper materials, but I wanted to jump in because there are a variety of reasons to not use plywood-- chief being weight and material availability. While plywood is cheap and abundant, sponsors can come through in interesting ways, including donating a bunch of wood to a team. If you have free stuff it's probably more prudent for most teams to make use of that first. Also, if you are targeting full weight bumpers, heavier wood can help you get there without violating any rules :rolleyes:.

[Mr. Tatorscout]

Can we NOT NOT NOT have a tiebreaker be something that is so subjective and prone to error as penalty points? Obviously a penalty created the tie in the first place, so why in the world would it be what breaks the tie?

I know, the assumption is that one team played a "cleaner match" than the other. However, given the increased number of ways to earn a foul this year, the large percentage that even one foul counts for and the huge number of frustrated teams who were affected by inconsistent calls (I'm not dissing the refs, there's only so many things they can see and do at once, and if they are half as prone to making mistakes as I am...) it seems like it would make more sense to have assist points be the tiebreaker. That is the mission of this game, after all.

Otherwise they would have named it Penal Desist

[Chris is me]

Can we NOT NOT NOT have a tiebreaker be something that is so subjective and prone to error as penalty points? Obviously a penalty created the tie in the first place, so why in the world would it be what breaks the tie?

Honestly, I would rather we just get rid of tiebreakers. They were added in reaction to 2010, a low scoring game that caused a lot of ties, but we have never had a game nearly as conducive to tying as that game. Tie breakers just put arbitrary emphasis on certain parts of the game. For example, this year's was assist points, which effectively meant whichever team scored less in auto won the match? Weird. I'd rather we just replay the 1-2 elims matches per competition that come down to a tie than use tiebreakers to declare a winner.

[hzheng_449]

I have one more random negative I really want to discuss.

Why are practice day matches from 10 AM to 4 PM??? They should be 12 to 6 PM instead.

In my five seasons on 2791, we have never, ever been to a practice match before noon. Regardless of how few or how many upgrades we had, getting situated and then inspected would always be the first thing on our minds. Maybe a half dozen robots actually make it to the field before noon.

On top of that, practice matches end super early, at 4 or so! This means teams doing serious upgrades maybe get one match. Then from 4-7, when your robot is *actually* ready to go, you can do nothing. The practice field is already full (and depending on the event may already be full for the NEXT DAY), your robot is ready to go but you have nowhere to use it, so you can either twiddle your thumbs in the pits or go home way early. If we shifted the matches 12-6, field volunteers would be working for the same amount of time, more teams would make it on the field, and everyone would get more practice.

While I agree that there definitely needs to be more practice time at regionals (especially since pits close so late), I think they should still start early since it incentivizes teams to actually finish their robot during build season.

[Garvs72]

Ummm, that is why there is a coach on the drive team and one of that persons primary responsibilities.

This is true for most of the match, but when the coach needs to shout an order to their driveteam during those last five seconds it's not realistic. My team had a quarterfinal match in which I was counting down from ten for our drivers, but we had to change our strategy from shooting to trussing with five seconds left, and they shot early without lining because I wasn't able to count from five and also tell them to truss instead of shoot. We lost that match by six points.

It's not an excuse, we lost that match fair and square, I'm just saying that it really would be nice to have the last 5-10 seconds counted down by LEDs.

[Koko Ed]

While I agree that there definitely needs to be more practice time at regionals (especially since pits close so late), I think they should still start early since it incentivizes teams to actually finish their robot during build season.

I personally loathe practice day (I have PTSD from the word "Filler") but I do think Practice Day would be more effective if the field was open for teams to practice til the pits close. Every team should get a chance to practice and shutting the field down at 4 makes no sense.

[Libby K]

Why are practice day matches from 10 AM to 4 PM??? They should be 12 to 6 PM instead.

I like this shift, but it made me think of something else.

At the two MAR districts my team went to, we didn't have a 'practice day', but rather a load-in/unbag/inspect/maybe-practice night. We're allowed to get to the venue ~3, and can unbag and inspect, then could practice from 5-10pm. (Or maybe it was 9 and pits closed at 10.)

At that point, why not just go back to having a traditional practice day like we used to at regionals? We're already there for 7+ hours. It was shifted WAY too late, and my students were exhausted by the end of the night. Falling asleep in the pit exhausted. At another district event where I was volunteer coordinator, the volunteers weren't able to leave until almost 11, and then they were expected to be back at 7. It was great to have practice time, but at the cost of sleep for volunteers and teams? Maybe time to seek alternative solutions.

[waialua359]

We should be getting rid of Practice Day Match schedules.
Just make it a filler. Once you get inspected, you get in line and practice all you want.
It was crazy at our first event that they wouldnt let us go back on the field during practice day in consecutive matches.
The very next match NO ONE was on the field.:mad:

[Boe]

I'll probably post more later, but one thing thats been bugging me since champs is the shortened team intros we saw on einstien. I know they are trying to keep things moving but I think if you get there your team deserves to be recognized in each match. Also the fourth bots teams should have been brought out for the handshake.

[Koko Ed]

We should be getting rid of Practice Day Match schedules.
Just make it a filler. Once you get inspected, you get in line and practice all you want.
It was crazy at our first event that they wouldnt let us go back on the field during practice day in consecutive matches.
The very next match NO ONE was on the field.:mad:

That's extreme.
My policy is to try to get full matches.
I too think the schedules need to go. They cause more trouble than it's worth.

[Chris is me]

I'll probably post more later, but one thing thats been bugging me since champs is the shortened team intros we saw on einstien. I know they are trying to keep things moving but I think if you get there your team deserves to be recognized in each match. Also the fourth bots teams should have been brought out for the handshake.

In 2009, the long and detailed intros were incredible and inspiring. I LOVED in particular the way the relationships between the teams were discussed and when they had played with and against each other. Ever since, intros have been kept fairly short and only trivial information gets discussed (awards won that year, if that). I know there is a time crunch but those combined 5 total minutes aren't where we should be cutting time down.

[PayneTrain]

The total lack of feedback from World Chairman's submissions. To not get any feedback at all is a total let down. How is a team supposed to improve when they don't get the feedback needed to see where that improvement needs to happen?

To add on to this, I think if FIRST is going through the trouble of adding in more opportunities for judging of awards, we need to be getting better feedback everywhere. I was very disappointed and had a confused look on my face when I took the awards lead down to pit admin to collect the nonexistent feedback, but going back over the feedback sheets we did get at Alamo and Virginia, I wish we got better feedback.

FIRST has my email and contact info for myself and the other contacts in TIMS. 422 went to championships to see how we stack up against other teams and learn from them. While we had the opportunity to do that with the robot, it was very disappointing to not get that same experience from judges of the highest honor in FIRST. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that we are miles behind 33, 340, 503, 604, 1108, 2486, or the Hall of Fame teams when it comes to program quality, but I want to know exaclty where we need to be improving and to see if we are missing anything.

I know under the new structure judges are overworked, but I would like the detailed, digital feedback offered at one of Spectrum's events (Dallas or Lone Star?) to be available at every event including Championship.

[thefro526]

At that point, why not just go back to having a traditional practice day like we used to at regionals? We're already there for 7+ hours. It was shifted WAY too late, and my students were exhausted by the end of the night. Falling asleep in the pit exhausted. At another district event where I was volunteer coordinator, the volunteers weren't able to leave until almost 11, and then they were expected to be back at 7. It was great to have practice time, but at the cost of sleep for volunteers and teams? Maybe time to seek alternative solutions.

Each district (at least in MAR) was a bit different with this, some would run full 'practice matches' while others would just allow teams to connect to the field (which normally involved the robot sitting on a cart next to the field).

Personally, I think that practice matches load-in night are a good idea, but only if they're being done as an 'open' sort of thing, with additional (regularly scheduled) practice matches in the morning for those who were unable to practice on load in night, for a plethora of reasons. To lessen the load on volunteers, each team involved in the open practice could/should help reset the field, especially in games like Aerial Assist (and to a lesser extent rebound rumble) where two or three drive teams can handle the field reset in a minute or two...

[nuclearnerd]

Following up on the practice field comments - I wish there were more "free fire zones" in the pits. We tried to recalibrate our shooter at the beginning of every day (our shot was dialled in pretty carefully: From against the low goal to "one robot distance" back from the low goal). Unfortunately the only place you could launch a ball and then adjust the robot was on the one practice half-field shared between two divisions (200 teams). There was a constant 1 hour wait for 10 minutes of access to this field. Many of our matches didn't have 1 hour between them, and it took us more like 15 minutes for a proper calibration. Moreover the field closed 1-2 hours before the pits at night, which made very little sense to me. In short, we never did get the shot perfectly calibrated (although it was close enough for all but one of our matches).

I loved what they did in NYC: They roped off a ~ 30 x 30 ft wide "unsupervised operating area" next to the practice field. Teams formed four parallel lines and operated their bots as needed (running auto, practicing shots against the wall). Everyone was gracious enough not to hog a lane, and I never saw a line up longer than 10 minutes, despite there being 100 bots in the regional. Even if FIRST was uncomfortable about a free-fire zone, it would be nice to have practice half-fields with more than two lanes when you're serving hundreds of teams.

[Brandon_L]

I like this shift, but it made me think of something else.

At the two MAR districts my team went to, we didn't have a 'practice day', but rather a load-in/unbag/inspect/maybe-practice night. We're allowed to get to the venue ~3, and can unbag and inspect, then could practice from 5-10pm. (Or maybe it was 9 and pits closed at 10.)

At that point, why not just go back to having a traditional practice day like we used to at regionals? We're already there for 7+ hours. It was shifted WAY too late, and my students were exhausted by the end of the night. Falling asleep in the pit exhausted. At another district event where I was volunteer coordinator, the volunteers weren't able to leave until almost 11, and then they were expected to be back at 7. It was great to have practice time, but at the cost of sleep for volunteers and teams? Maybe time to seek alternative solutions.

I think you're missing the 6 hour unbag time in the week leading up to the event which is supposed to replaces the practice day. The first day is supposed to just be a load-ing/unbag/inspect and at some events practice is thrown in. I've been to events where we were allowed to practice Day 1 (Bridgewater) and events where we weren't, and practice was a couple hours at the beginning of day 2 (Chestnut Hill, Lenape 2013).

Of course, the 6 hour unbag time can't really replace true on-field with other team practice time. The issue with having a full practice day, at least in MAR, is probably the fact that the MAR events run Friday-Sunday in a highschool gym which would involve invading a high school during school hours.

[dag0620]

I think you're missing the 6 hour unbag time in the week leading up to the event which is supposed to replaces the practice day. The first day is supposed to just be a load-ing/unbag/inspect and at some events practice is thrown in. I've been to events where we were allowed to practice Day 1 (Bridgewater) and events where we weren't, and practice was a couple hours at the beginning of day 2 (Chestnut Hill, Lenape 2013).

Of course, the 6 hour unbag time can't really replace true on-field with other team practice time. The issue with having a full practice day, at least in MAR, is probably the fact that the MAR events run Friday-Sunday in a highschool gym which would involve invading a high school during school hours.

Also at all NE Events (at least the ones I went too), we held a firm no teams in until 5 pm on Day 0. Out of the 4 district level events I went too, only one had the field ready for practice matches on Day 0, and that was because we started set-up on Thursday (what we called Day -1). So for us, we've kept the time teams spent on Day 0 significantly less to the old Thursdays at regionals up here.

[Caleb Sykes]

FIRST, please put all scoring category information into the team standings. With the foul points worth so much this year, there should be a resource more reliable than twitter for teams to find out who is getting penalized. In addition, please put more information about the previous match into the final scoreboard display. There is enough room on the display to show 2 more scoring categories.

[Ether]

FIRST, please put all scoring category information into the team standings.

It would be far preferable to put it in the Match Results Page (http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/Events/archimedes/matchresults.html) instead of the Team Standings Page (http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/events/Archimedes/rankings.html), so we could have the info for each match rather than just the totals.

Or better yet, provide an API to the data instead of a web page that has to be scraped (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1378681&postcount=116).

[BrendanB]

I like this shift, but it made me think of something else.

At the two MAR districts my team went to, we didn't have a 'practice day', but rather a load-in/unbag/inspect/maybe-practice night. We're allowed to get to the venue ~3, and can unbag and inspect, then could practice from 5-10pm. (Or maybe it was 9 and pits closed at 10.)

At that point, why not just go back to having a traditional practice day like we used to at regionals? We're already there for 7+ hours. It was shifted WAY too late, and my students were exhausted by the end of the night. Falling asleep in the pit exhausted. At another district event where I was volunteer coordinator, the volunteers weren't able to leave until almost 11, and then they were expected to be back at 7. It was great to have practice time, but at the cost of sleep for volunteers and teams? Maybe time to seek alternative solutions.

To be honest after hearing this its a little disappointing. I know the first year of districts isn't easy and will take a few years before everything settles in but doesn't this hit a level of unfairness? I noticed it at a few of our events up here and while it didn't bother me I was curious to hear about if FIRST would grant extra unbag hours for certain situations.

Like Dave said NE events were strict on not opening the doors until 5pm many of which had no practice matches on Day 0 due to the field still being setup. At UNH week 2 the event organizers did express that there were scheduling issues with the venue which lead to these issues in a "perfect storm" situation. For starters they weren't allowed into the facilities where the pits were until 4-5 pm meaning as load in would normally start they were just getting to setup. Load in was pushed back to 6pm which didn't bother me too much but we've overhauled our robot in 3 hours so every hour is precious especially when its your first competition. There was an issue with load in due to the small parking lot and area to unload which meant only 3 teams could unload at a time so all teams were to line up in a parking lot around the corner and wait to unload. I arrived at the lot 45 minutes before doors open and didn't get into the building until 7:30 and there were still teams in line after me. Pits closed promptly at 10pm with about half of the inspections pushed off into the next day. *UNH was a well run event so I am not putting the event or its organizers down it really was a perfect storm*

If you still got 6 hours of unbag time you realistically got an extra 2 hours compared to teams in NE, 3 more compared to teams first in line at UNH, and 5 more than the last teams in the door. That's also for one event double that for two events because all NE events were 5pm-10pm at most.

I hope this doesn't sound like a whine its just a concern/observation I had after going through the districts this year and somewhat of a flaw I see in the unbag times. It wasn't a huge deal for our team but I know of many teams who had a lot to work on and the extra two hours would have meant a world of difference. This all probably comes down to the same arguments about expanding the witholding allowance which is never fair. Its brought out certain years and some years teams hurt by weather don't get an expansion. The years it is expanded the teams who had no days missed get the advantage because they were never hindered in the first place.

[Caleb Sykes]

It would be far preferable to put it in the Match Results Page (http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/Events/archimedes/matchresults.html) instead of the Team Standings Page (http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/events/Archimedes/rankings.html), so we could have the info for each match rather than just the totals.

Or better yet, provide an API to the data instead of a web page that has to be scraped (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1378681&postcount=116).


Absolutely this.

[BethMo]

In my opinion, what FIRST should have done is had one referee dedicated to tracking the ball of each alliance, recording possessions and zones. The other referees would then be able to completely focus on the other interactions in the game (ideally one interaction ref for each zone plus a head ref).

Partway through the season, Aidan gave the head refs permission to add additional referees and have some of the referees focus entirely on ball tracking and scoring. That's why, at the later events, you saw the four referees at tablets and 2-3 others without tablets. The specific arrangement and duties varied depending on how the head referee wanted to run it, but the referees at the scoretable-side pads were doing the ball tracking and scoring.

[dcarr]

It would be far preferable to put it in the Match Results Page (http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/Events/archimedes/matchresults.html) instead of the Team Standings Page (http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/events/Archimedes/rankings.html), so we could have the info for each match rather than just the totals.

Or better yet, provide an API to the data instead of a web page that has to be scraped (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1378681&postcount=116).



The assertions in that linked post are just sad. FIRST really is stuck in the dark ages when it comes to properly exposing data and making it available in a timely manner.

In my opinion, TBA should be adopted as the official online scoring system. It already has an API (http://www.thebluealliance.com/apidocs), so simply getting the right data into TBA accurately and quickly will solve the problem since TBA has the rest of the infrastructure already.

Another thing that would be great is official client libraries for teams to build into their scouting systems (Probably Ruby, Python, iOS, Android would cover what most teams are using).

[Libby K]

I think you're missing the 6 hour unbag time in the week leading up to the event which is supposed to replaces the practice day. The first day is supposed to just be a load-ing/unbag/inspect and at some events practice is thrown in. I've been to events where we were allowed to practice Day 1 (Bridgewater) and events where we weren't, and practice was a couple hours at the beginning of day 2 (Chestnut Hill, Lenape 2013).

Of course, the 6 hour unbag time can't really replace true on-field with other team practice time. The issue with having a full practice day, at least in MAR, is probably the fact that the MAR events run Friday-Sunday in a highschool gym which would involve invading a high school during school hours.

We didn't miss it - trust me, 1923 used every possible second of their unbag window.

I guess I misworded myself. My suggestions are, either get rid of the load-in-practice-time, or go back to a practice day on a normal schedule. Keeping students (and parents and volunteers) there til almost 11pm just to be able to practice on a full field wasn't really fair to them. And it certainly needs to be consistent across all the events...

[Patrick Flynn]

In 2009, the long and detailed intros were incredible and inspiring. I LOVED in particular the way the relationships between the teams were discussed and when they had played with and against each other. Ever since, intros have been kept fairly short and only trivial information gets discussed (awards won that year, if that). I know there is a time crunch but those combined 5 total minutes aren't where we should be cutting time down.

This is something that I wish Blair and Andy had done more of during their time behind the desk. Getting some sports style announcers was awesome. But in my mind they were under used, why wasn't 27 interviewed? I mean they just won the biggest award. I think everyone wouldn't have minded 5 more minutes between matches to get some more details and interviews from team members.

The assertions in that linked post are just sad. FIRST really is stuck in the dark ages when it comes to properly exposing data and making it available in a timely manner.

In my opinion, TBA should be adopted as the official online scoring system. It already has an API (http://www.thebluealliance.com/apidocs), so simply getting the right data into TBA accurately and quickly will solve the problem since TBA has the rest of the infrastructure already.


I had a long discussion about this yesterday with someone. And to summarize FIRST is full of nerds. Engineers like their data, I mean I practically live in excel. But publishing more data doesn't help FIRST. Sure it makes more of us numbers people happy, but it costs FIRST time and money and doesn't really serve a major purpose for them.

[Ether]

... publishing more data doesn't help FIRST. Sure it makes more of us numbers people happy, but it costs FIRST time and money and doesn't really serve a major purpose for them...

Not to be too harsh, but I disagree with the above. If the person to whom you were speaking holds a high-ranking position within FIRST it is truly discouraging.


"...doesn't help FIRST... doesn't really serve a major purpose for them"

Seriously? If FIRST is truly about inspiration -- and not just the robot -- then it certainly does serve a major purpose. There are a lot of students (and mentors) out there who are very inspired by analyzing the numbers. Look at all the effort students put into this aspect of the program.


" it costs FIRST time and money "

This floors me. The data is already being generated. Just provide it to someone (like TBA) who values it and will gladly volunteer their time to make it available to students who are inspired by it.

[Boydean]

In my opinion, TBA should be adopted as the official online scoring system. It already has an API (http://www.thebluealliance.com/apidocs), so simply getting the right data into TBA accurately and quickly will solve the problem since TBA has the rest of the infrastructure already.


This. A million times this. I might be a bit bias, but TBA has more than proven it can handle being an official point of reference.

FIRST needs to focus on delivering correct data in a timely fashion (aka, instantly). If they can't do that than how can you expect them to deliver videos of matches in a timely fashion, something that is much harder to do.

Without match (and event/team) information videos are useless.

[ratdude747]

Also the fourth bots teams should have been brought out for the handshake.

Agreed. This also bugged me a bit. A 4 team alliance is a 4 team alliance. Not a 3 team plus an "unshowable" pinch hitter. It's sorta how there is a thought some have expressed in the past that "2nd picks are lucky free riders" in previous games... IMHO it shouldn't matter when you were picked; you're an alliance member just as much as your partners and should be treated as such.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

...My suggestions are, either get rid of the load-in-practice-time, or go back to a practice day on a normal schedule. Keeping students (and parents and volunteers) there til almost 11pm just to be able to practice on a full field wasn't really fair to them. And it certainly needs to be consistent across all the events...

I don't have any knowledge of how the events were being run where your team competed, but FiM districts were attempting to adhere to a pretty strict schedule/closing time. Unload was pretty solidly 4-10pm, more-or-less kicking teams out at 10, to prevent too much volunteer burnout.
And on the other side of the coin, there's nobody there forcing teams to stay until pits close. That's the teams decision and right (granted teams are obviously going to stay as late as possible to get the most practice, but common sense should come into play if everyone on the team is exhausted/falling asleep).

Agreed. This also bugged me a bit. A 4 team alliance is a 4 team alliance. Not a 3 team plus an "unshowable" pinch hitter. It's sorta how there is a thought some have expressed in the past that "2nd picks are lucky free riders" in previous games... IMHO it shouldn't matter when you were picked; you're an alliance member just as much as your partners and should be treated as such.

The way I understood it, the 4th robot was an alliance specific backup robot. Maybe I misinterpreted this change, but I saw it as a way for alliances to pick the robot that would be the replacement bot (and also allow switch-in matches for more repair flexibility) rather than being auto-assigned one. Hockey players that are scratched from a game do not dress and therefore do not participate in the pre/post game handshake as well. I would relate these two events as similar in nature.

[Jake177]

I'll probably post more later, but one thing thats been bugging me since champs is the shortened team intros we saw on einstien. I know they are trying to keep things moving but I think if you get there your team deserves to be recognized in each match. Also the fourth bots teams should have been brought out for the handshake.

I think a good compromise would be to do some kind of introductions during the Einstein "test matches" while all four robots from the alliance are out on the field. I think those matches would also be a great time to have a quick rundown of the elimination rounds from each division.

[ratdude747]

The way I understood it, the 4th robot was an alliance specific backup robot. Maybe I misinterpreted this change, but I saw it as a way for alliances to pick the robot that would be the replacement bot (and also allow switch-in matches for more repair flexibility) rather than being auto-assigned one. Hockey players that are scratched from a game do not dress and therefore do not participate in the pre/post game handshake as well. I would relate these two events as similar in nature.

It isn't quite like that from the way I read the game manual. It's just like IRI; you present a lineup to the head ref for each match, which states who is going to play the next match. They aren't a backup robot, they're a 4th member you have as a strategic option. Yes, if one breaks, the 4th becomes the replacement, but that's not the sole purpose. But if you look at the upcoming match and predict that say the 4th member would be better suited than the 3rd, you can make the switch. For example, say the opposing alliance has a weakness to heavy defense and the 4th robot is an excellent defender but the 3rd is more offence oriented... they're just another card in your hand that you can play.

Likewise, during alliance introductions, the 4th alliance member is announced with the other alliance members and they are also is considered a defending champion if the alliance wins, so IMHO, they also should be part of the handshake.

[Allison K]

I would really like to see some clarification and/or modification of the rules regarding withholding allowance and the definition of COTS parts. Currently, as best as I can tell, a motor with terminals on the wires is considered a fabricated component when it comes to withholding allowance, but the same motor is a COTS component when used at the beginning of the season (because otherwise reusing a motor from a previous year would be illegal, as it was fabricated outside of the build season).

Specifically what I would like to see is the withholding allowance move away from definitions using the words "fabricated" vs. "COTS" and instead use a system of "identical spares" vs. "upgrades". I think "identical spares" should be unlimited in quantity and weight. This includes COTS or custom gearboxes, motors and motor controllers with modified wires, assemblies that may be prone to damage, etc. - anything that is inside the bag on stop build day. Identical spares should be defined as the same material serving the same function fabricated in the same way and identical in form, weight, material, and use. Secondly, the "upgrades" should be limited similar to withholding, though perhaps a lesser limit (15-20 lbs), as the "identical spares" can be unlimited. Upgrades include anything that is kept out of the bag on stop build day, and anything that is fabricated after stop build day - anything that will be added to the robot to upgrade it after it is unbagged. Raw material is still separate from either definition and allowed in unlimited quantities.

The benefits I see to this system include...
1) Stronger teams are significantly less limited in their ability to bring in popular spares that will enable them to help all teams be competitive
2) Unlimited identical spares helps ensure all teams will be competitive as they can have replacements ready to go.
3) Eliminates fuzziness about withholding weight of spares that were fabricated during the six weeks vs spares that were fabricated after the six weeks, and in general is somewhat more enforceable.
3) The definitions don't conflict with those that are used to define what parts can be reused from one season to the next.
4) The definitions better convey what the purpose of the withholding allowance is for (if indeed it is for upgrades, i.e. assemblies that were withheld).

One situation that would need to be addressed in this system is how to address instances of teams bringing in entire assemblies that can be added to partners to make them a more useful member of an alliance. Overall I think this would clarify a lot of the withholding confusion and be more in line with the spirit of a six week build season.

[Oblarg]

Specifically what I would like to see is the withholding allowance move away from definitions using the words "fabricated" vs. "COTS" and instead use a system of "identical spares" vs. "upgrades". I think "identical spares" should be unlimited in quantity and weight. This includes COTS or custom gearboxes, motors and motor controllers with modified wires, assemblies that may be prone to damage, etc. - anything that is inside the bag on stop build day. Identical spares should be defined as the same material serving the same function fabricated in the same way and identical in form, weight, material, and use. Secondly, the "upgrades" should be limited similar to withholding, though perhaps a lesser limit (15-20 lbs), as the "identical spares" can be unlimited. Upgrades include anything that is kept out of the bag on stop build day, and anything that is fabricated after stop build day - anything that will be added to the robot to upgrade it after it is unbagged. Raw material is still separate from either definition and allowed in unlimited quantities.

I very much agree with this.

[Orion.DeYoe]

In 2014, getting a quality webcast is apparently a hard thing to do.

Except it's not. Please fix this. Baseline HD stream requirements for all events. Include equipment/connectivity/staffing in budget or find a team/volunteers who can handle it.

Multi-cam setups are ideal for the big screens at the events, but for online, a single full-field view is optimal. Perhaps offer both?

THIS!!! A thousand times: THIS!!!
I don't want to watch blue alliance's ball roll up against the alliance wall unattended while 254 is shooting in the high goal under heavy defense on the other side of the field (out of frame). Full field view is the way to go.

[Mr V]

I would really like to see some clarification and/or modification of the rules regarding withholding allowance and the definition of COTS parts. Currently, as best as I can tell, a motor with terminals on the wires is considered a fabricated component when it comes to withholding allowance, but the same motor is a COTS component when used at the beginning of the season (because otherwise reusing a motor from a previous year would be illegal, as it was fabricated outside of the build season).

Specifically what I would like to see is the withholding allowance move away from definitions using the words "fabricated" vs. "COTS" and instead use a system of "identical spares" vs. "upgrades". I think "identical spares" should be unlimited in quantity and weight. This includes COTS or custom gearboxes, motors and motor controllers with modified wires, assemblies that may be prone to damage, etc. - anything that is inside the bag on stop build day. Identical spares should be defined as the same material serving the same function fabricated in the same way and identical in form, weight, material, and use. Secondly, the "upgrades" should be limited similar to withholding, though perhaps a lesser limit (15-20 lbs), as the "identical spares" can be unlimited. Upgrades include anything that is kept out of the bag on stop build day, and anything that is fabricated after stop build day - anything that will be added to the robot to upgrade it after it is unbagged. Raw material is still separate from either definition and allowed in unlimited quantities.

The benefits I see to this system include...
1) Stronger teams are significantly less limited in their ability to bring in popular spares that will enable them to help all teams be competitive
2) Unlimited identical spares helps ensure all teams will be competitive as they can have replacements ready to go.
3) Eliminates fuzziness about withholding weight of spares that were fabricated during the six weeks vs spares that were fabricated after the six weeks, and in general is somewhat more enforceable.
3) The definitions don't conflict with those that are used to define what parts can be reused from one season to the next.
4) The definitions better convey what the purpose of the withholding allowance is for (if indeed it is for upgrades, i.e. assemblies that were withheld).

One situation that would need to be addressed in this system is how to address instances of teams bringing in entire assemblies that can be added to partners to make them a more useful member of an alliance. Overall I think this would clarify a lot of the withholding confusion and be more in line with the spirit of a six week build season.

To me that sounds more confusing and more subject to abuse. Currently anything you stick in the bag is fine even if it is extra fabricate parts or assemblies that are either for spares, or something that you weren't able to fully assemble onto the robot.

Items like motors that have had terminals installed on the wires are quickly returned to COTS state with a snip of some wire cutters and don't take long to prepare to install on the robot. On the other hand there are items that do take significant assembly time like transmissions but again those can be returned to a COTS state and if you believe that you might need them you can have someone prepare them in the pits or during your 6hr unbag time (and put them in the bag) so they are ready to go if the need arises. If you don't need them and are attending another event then you can go ahead and put them in the bag.

[cbale2000]

To me Autonomous seems way overpowered this year compared to most. In past years when you would try to score an auto-specific gamepiece, if your autonomous failed, the gamepiece would be discarded on the field and basically considered debris. Other years without auto-specific game pieces you could score the same game pieces like any other in teleop but without the auto bonus.

This year was the first year that failure in autonomous could decide the entire match, not by being outscored by the bonus, but by the inability to score for half the match or more because you have to chase down and score the auto balls (and at lower point values, since no assists or trusses counted).

FIRST needed to implement a rule that allowed auto balls to be removed from play by simply getting them off the field, and not forcing teams to waste huge portions of their matches trying to score them.


Now, on the topic of LiveStreams...
Maybe just the MC'c mics then? So that people watching know what is going on.Just stream the MC microphones.
Any decent audio mixer should have multiple outputs in addition to the main mix. Send a feed with just the MC mics to the steaming equipment, and the full audio to the main mix.Work with youtube? They've only muted like 3-4 of my 100+ videos I uploaded from the KC regional this year.

The issue with this is that YouTubes content detection is hyper-sensitive and zero-tolerance with livestreams (It's much more forgiving with uploaded videos). Our livestream for the GLBR District only pulled audio from the announcers mics, but small bits of ambient music would get picked up and flagged by YouTube, forcing the stream down. Furthermore, we were unable to get any feedback from FIRST HQ as to if the have any sort of licensing arrangements with music companies to even legally be able to stream the music, or for that matter, if they have ANY policy regarding streams.

Its difficult to 'make it loud' with the webcasts we have running the way the are right now. If I tell some potential sponsor, friend, or even my grandma about this insane competition I'm a part of where robots shoot frisbees or pass balls and score, then I show them a webcast, its not exactly exciting. Michigan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUUL97AQ_3A) probably has the best example of what should be considered the norm. The state of the current webcasts are a turn-off for anyone other then mentors/students that already know whats going on.

I completely agree that the Michigan State Championship has one of the best webcasts available, the problem for applying this to other events is that they bring in the local PBS station to manage the entire thing and bring about $50k+ worth of equipment to run it. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see this at other events, but it doesn't seem like something that's scalable, beyond State and World championships.

[Justin Montois]

To add on to this, I think if FIRST is going through the trouble of adding in more opportunities for judging of awards, we need to be getting better feedback everywhere. I was very disappointed and had a confused look on my face when I took the awards lead down to pit admin to collect the nonexistent feedback, but going back over the feedback sheets we did get at Alamo and Virginia, I wish we got better feedback.

I am often frustrated by this as while. However, my most recent inquiry in the matter resulted in the judge advisor at the time, not sure who it was, but I was told "There are no feedback forms at Championship because winning Regional / District Champs Chairman's means technically you are doing enough to win at the World Champs.

I would like to add that I would definitely be in favor of getting a feedback form at World Champs.

[Bochek]

In 2014, getting a quality webcast is apparently a hard thing to do.

Except it's not. Please fix this. Baseline HD stream requirements for all events. Include equipment/connectivity/staffing in budget or find a team/volunteers who can handle it.


It is not hard to do, but the hard part is getting a good stable internet connection that is fast enough to handle the constant upload speeds required to broadcast a HD stream.



Multi-cam setups are ideal for the big screens at the events, but for online, a single full-field view is optimal. Perhaps offer both?


At the begining of this season I would have agreed with you, but after broadcasting both a "multi-cam" broadcast and a "Full-Field" broadcast at 3 events this year, The viewership was almost double on the "Full-Field" streams.

You see, FIRSTers want the full-field view, they know the game and are entertained by the teams playing it and how it is played. But parents, grandparents and non-FIRSTers quickly get bored of a static camera angle.

Just my $0.02


- Bochek

[wilsonmw04]

... Regional / District Champs Chairman's means technically you are doing enough to win at the World Champs.

I would like to add that I would definitely be in favor of getting a feedback form at World Champs.

Even if this were true, which I do not believe for a moment, I still want feedback from judges who have never seen my team before. The problem with going to the same regional is that the pool of judges is pretty static. I would love to have a different perspective. That does not happen without feedback forms. Heck I would even take the judges coming to find the teams and having a 5 minute debriefing.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Even if this were true, which I do not believe for a moment, I still want feedback from judges who have never seen my team before. The problem with going to the same regional is that the pool of judges is pretty static. I would love to have a different perspective. That does not happen without feedback forms. Heck I would even take the judges coming to find the teams and having a 5 minute debriefing.

I would second the need for more feedback to teams. I'd also like to see more time with the teams.

But I can give you some advice: The award criteria given to you is the exact criteria the judges should be working off of. If you want to win a particular award, focus in on it and understand what the criteria are. Sell based on that.

[wilsonmw04]

If you want to win a particular award, focus in on it and understand what the criteria are. Sell based on that.

What I would like is comparative feedback. I know the areas FIRST wants us to focus in outreach. I want to know how we stack up against the rest of the competition. For Example: "Your work on X is really good. Look to improve in areas of FRC mentor-ship and world wide outreach."

That would give us a point of reference to work with.

On a side note: The only feedback given to teams is from the Chairman's judges. This needs to change. All the teams should be able to be get feedback if they want it.

[rsisk]

What I would like is comparative feedback. I know the areas FIRST wants us to focus in outreach. I want to know how we stack up against the rest of the competition. For Example: "Your work on X is really good. Look to improve in areas of FRC mentor-ship and world wide outreach."

That would give us a point of reference to work with.

On a side note: The only feedback given to teams is from the Chairman's judges. This needs to change. All the teams should be able to be get feedback if they want it.

That would be awesome, but how to implement feedback for all teams is beyond me. The best way, and this is happening in some today, is peer review of Chairman's Submissions and sharing of judging tips.

[Nate Laverdure]

That's extreme.
My policy is to try to get full matches.
I too think the schedules need to go. They cause more trouble than it's worth.
At CMP, the practice day schedule (http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Game_and_Season__Info/2014/2014_FRC_CMP_Practice_Galileo_prelim.pdf) had regularly-scheduled matches first, then "filler line" matches later. This is exactly the reverse of what it should be. Filler matches should be scheduled first, then regularly-scheduled matches should follow.

For teams struggling to get inspected early on Wednesday, this change will provide a greater opportunity for them to get a practice match without having to deal with the filler line.

For teams who breeze through inspections, this change shouldn't really have an adverse effect.

[BrendanB]

At CMP, the practice day schedule (http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Game_and_Season__Info/2014/2014_FRC_CMP_Practice_Galileo_prelim.pdf) had regularly-scheduled matches first, then "filler line" matches later. This is exactly the reverse of what it should be. Filler matches should be scheduled first, then regularly-scheduled matches should follow.

For teams struggling to get inspected early on Wednesday, this change will provide a greater opportunity for them to get a practice match without having to deal with the filler line.

We were lucky to squeeze in to one of the last filler matches as we were never told when our practice match was.

[wilsonmw04]

We were lucky to squeeze in to one of the last filler matches as we were never told when our practice match was.

It was in your packet. Admin also had copies if you needed extras.

[Gregor]

Don't do away with practice matches. They can be the lifeline to uninspected* teams that still need valuable field time.

If there's still a provision for uninspected teams to play on Thursday, I'm game.

*like us at North Bay, long story

[Andrew Schreiber]

That would be awesome, but how to implement feedback for all teams is beyond me. The best way, and this is happening in some today, is peer review of Chairman's Submissions and sharing of judging tips.

I'm going to come out and say that it is impossible without drastic changes to the process. It's doable in FLL due to the nature of their judging process. For those who don't know the FLL process is a rubric based score sheet with a section for general comments. (Much like the Chairman's Award) it means that teams know how well they did and can iterate from there.

Now, do I think FRC Judging should go to a rubric system and provide it as feedback to teams? I'm not sure. There are benefits and drawbacks to a rubric system.

[BrendanB]

It was in your packet. Admin also had copies if you needed extras.

Odd.

We weren't able to register until late on Wednesday due to travel issues. They made an exception and let me register the team and even then there was no schedule in our packet.

Its no big deal but this isn't the first time its happened this season where p-match schedules weren't handed out.

[cbale2000]

It seems like the simple solution to practice matches would be to do what the Michigan Districts do: Open the field to matches on a first-come first-serve basis, allow each team to play two matches in a row, then send them to the back of the line if they want to play more. Everyone who wants to practice gets to unless they wait until the last minute.

[DJB11]

The only thing in my opinion this year was the fouls. Technical fouls seemed a little TOO punishing, but overall, this year was pretty good.

[Citrus Dad]

I would second the need for more feedback to teams. I'd also like to see more time with the teams.

But I can give you some advice: As a judge the criteria given to teams in the Awards section of the manual is the exact criteria we work off of. If you want to win a particular award, focus in on it and understand what the criteria are. Sell based on that.

In the 2 first regionals where we made Chairman's presentations, we got completely opposite assessments and advice from the 2 different sets of judges. We couldn't really figure out what we needed to focus on consistently. Despite that, I think our last presentation at our 3rd regional was the best by far.

[Citrus Dad]

To me Autonomous seems way overpowered this year compared to most. In past years when you would try to score an auto-specific gamepiece, if your autonomous failed, the gamepiece would be discarded on the field and basically considered debris. Other years without auto-specific game pieces you could score the same game pieces like any other in teleop but without the auto bonus.

This year was the first year that failure in autonomous could decide the entire match, not by being outscored by the bonus, but by the inability to score for half the match or more because you have to chase down and score the auto balls (and at lower point values, since no assists or trusses counted).

FIRST needed to implement a rule that allowed auto balls to be removed from play by simply getting them off the field, and not forcing teams to waste huge portions of their matches trying to score them.

I'm not completely wedded to this, but I liked the consequences of failed auto routines. This is real life--when your program doesn't work quite right, most often it's not just that you don't get all of the bonus points--sometimes it can put a life at risk. It also showed the importance of developing a response strategy to quickly clean up the mess. Teams had to make choices about whether to chase more points or reduce their risks--again a real world choice in many situations. Because the auto score was capped at such a low level compared to 2012 and 2013, it was less important to the overall game score, and teams that made a different risk assessment could quickly make up the difference, unlike last year. In 2013, an alliance could nail its auto, play great defense and seal the victory with a big climb at the end. This year an alliance had to play the whole way.

[SIIENGINEER]

I was a volunteer on the VULCAN practice field next to CURIE. I just want to say that I had a great time meeting all of the teams who played on our field. For the most part things ran smoothly from Thursday afternoon on. I was appointed the queuer. I did my best to keep track of all the teams in the FILLER line so no one was overlooked. Most of the time we were running 10 to 15 minutes ahead of schedule.

The biggest problem we had were teams showing up for their match at exactly the time they signed up for. We did our best to inform teams to arrive 5 minutes before their match so I could get them q'd up. The majority of the teams complied. At times when we were running way ahead I would run into the pits to find the teams scheduled next to inform them that we were running ahead so they did not miss their scheduled match. ( I was probably the person the PIT ADMIN kept telling to stop RUNNING over the PA.) I just want everyone to know that I did my best to accomadate all of the teams utlizing our practice field.

I want to thank all of the teams and other volunteers for making my first volunteer experience at CHAMPS a most amazing experience. I am planning on doing the same job next year so maybe I will see you their.

[waialua359]

tl;dr.

On the Curie field, many teams missed matches!

With the lack of wifi/3G/4G connectivity in the pits, it was extremely difficult to know what match they were on.
Yes, I do know that by looking at the big screen, you can see what match was completed.

But is this process clear and coherent for the many new teams that come to CMPs for the 1st time? Posting a time on the match schedule HURTS the process. Even though we all should know matches dont always run on time, putting a time stamp next to matches will naturally make newbies think that's when their match will take place.

Connectivity should be a big priority next year, especially with 600 teams in 2015 and 8 fields to worry about.

[PayneTrain]

Connectivity should be a big priority next year, especially with 600 teams in 2015 and 8 fields to worry about.

Did everyone except me forget the bomb Dean kamen and Qualcomm dropped during the closing ceremonies? I think they hinted at getting Wi-Fi off the machines and back into our pockets.

[AdamHeard]

Our solution for this is we have a scout text the match number of the match that was just finished to a student in pit who is tasked with timing.

We do this at regionals too.

tl;dr.

On the Curie field, many teams missed matches!

With the lack of wifi/3G/4G connectivity in the pits, it was extremely difficult to know what match they were on.
Yes, I do know that by looking at the big screen, you can see what match was completed.

But is this process clear and coherent for the many new teams that come to CMPs for the 1st time? Posting a time on the match schedule HURTS the process. Even though we all should know matches dont always run on time, putting a time stamp next to matches will naturally make newbies think that's when their match will take place.

Connectivity should be a big priority next year, especially with 600 teams in 2015 and 8 fields to worry about.

[Steven Donow]

Did everyone except me forget the bomb Dean kamen and Qualcomm dropped during the closing ceremonies? I think they hinted at getting Wi-Fi off the machines and back into our pockets.

Did they? I thought he was referencing Qualcomm helping during the Einstein 2012 shenanigans. (I don't recall if they were mentioned in the Einstein Report)

[waialua359]

Our solution for this is we have a scout text the match number of the match that was just finished to a student in pit who is tasked with timing.

We do this at regionals too.

Yes, veterans such as ourselves know better. But not to everyone, especially new participants.

[Jared]

The assertions in that linked post are just sad. FIRST really is stuck in the dark ages when it comes to properly exposing data and making it available in a timely manner.

In my opinion, TBA should be adopted as the official online scoring system. It already has an API (http://www.thebluealliance.com/apidocs), so simply getting the right data into TBA accurately and quickly will solve the problem since TBA has the rest of the infrastructure already.

Another thing that would be great is official client libraries for teams to build into their scouting systems (Probably Ruby, Python, iOS, Android would cover what most teams are using).

I agree completely. I can't remember a time when TBA actually had a problem that wasn't caused by incorrect data from FIRST. I'm sure members of the FIRST community could come up with a more reliable method of providing the data. The issues with connectivity seem to happen even when there is a working internet connection.

Another issue that never got solved was the hot goal timing, which to me doesn't seem like an impossible task. Watch 1114 move and the goal light up in this match (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=676e_LIUJM8&list=PLLCLvSljkBHHSuWdfttCESB-r0H87UiPl). It also happened in an Einstein practice match. When you only have ten seconds, every single second matters.

Also, to me it seems that the rules are too complicated, not only for teams, but for the volunteers. Over the season we've had a few technical fouls called on us on a rule the ref could not cite, or did not exist. The referee was understanding, and changed the score when incorrect, but if members of our team hadn't studied the rules and memorized the foul numbers, and went to the question box, we would have lost a few matches we deserved to win. Again, at the championship, one our alliance partners came up with a strategy to have a blocker that would drop out of the way once teleop started, but were told it was illegal to start high up, so they spent a bunch of time trying to build a mechanism to deploy it. With this many rules, it's really hard for referees to be consistent in calling things like bumper violations (not called 5 times in the matches I watched), ramming, herding, the differences in offensive and defense possession (I didn't even know there was a difference until CMP...), and contact in frame perimeter, which can be called as a tech foul every time your robot breaks the plane of the frame perimeter, a tech foul every time your robot contacts another robot inside their frame perimeter, or a foul every time your robot "intentionally" contacts another robot inside their frame perimeter. Most of these consistency problems were at previous event, and overall, the refereeing at the championship was much better than at our other events.

[Moon2020]

For Judging, cut the fluff. Hit the key points with just enough detail. The Judges only know what the Team tells them. If the Judges want more info, they will ask if there is time remaining.

Florida FTC uses an Excel spreadsheet for League and State that makes giving the feedback to the Teams easy (we were the pilot program for the spreadsheet scoring system). As long as a Judge is consistent with their scoring for all Teams, it works very well. It eliminates "strong personalities" from lobbying for any one Team from one specific area and standardizes the primary criteria. However, each Judge looks for specific things from the Teams, rather they are presentation skills, technical knowledge, or a great grip on their finances/funding.

We use text messages to communicate to the CSAs and Field/Cue Inspectors issues that the Teams are having on the Field. We had about a 10 minute delay in receiving text messages last year at Champs that we did not seem to have this year. However, 4G was still clogged solid.

Jared, where do the Robot Rules and Game Rules begin and end? Some Teams and some Volunteers know both sets of Rules. Not all Teams (Students and Mentors) nor all Volunteers who should know all the rules (Refs, Inspectors, etc.) know all the rules. As we know, Interpretation and Implementation results will vary. For example: We had a very confused student ask us if the robot had to be inspected to play in a practice match. We said no. However, we also told him that the robot has to have been inspected to play in a practice match via the filler line. He was still very confused. To me, this responsibility falls on both the Teams and Volunteers to read and understand what the rules are really telling them. The frame perimeter rule drives us a bit crazy. The withholding allowance/identical spares/changeable mechanisms also drives us a bit crazy. Non-compliant bumpers drive us even crazier, if that is even possible.

[OZ_341]

In 2014, getting a quality webcast is apparently a hard thing to do.
Except it's not. Please fix this. Baseline HD stream requirements for all events. Include equipment/connectivity/staffing in budget or find a team/volunteers who can handle it.
Multi-cam setups are ideal for the big screens at the events, but for online, a single full-field view is optimal. Perhaps offer both?

THIS!!
FIRST needs to take the lead on this. Want to know how to "Make it Loud"?
Start with broadcast standards and then add logistical support and financial support to ensure those standards.
If a regional can't meet the standards then they should not be allowed to broadcast. Not having a webcast would be better than some of the broadcasts that I attempted to watch.
There were instances in which I wanted to direct a sponsor, a friend, my school, or a potential mentor to a regional webcast, but then decided not to tell them, because the broadcast quality was so bad.
Lets fix this!!

[coalhot]

I guess I misworded myself. My suggestions are, either get rid of the load-in-practice-time, or go back to a practice day on a normal schedule. Keeping students (and parents and volunteers) there til almost 11pm just to be able to practice on a full field wasn't really fair to them. And it certainly needs to be consistent across all the events...

After volunteering at the Greater Pittsburgh regional this year, I can say that I truly miss the days of regionals in the MAR area. You got a full day to work out issues, get inspected, play real matches that are being reffed as they will be for the rest of the event. And if the practice day is run correctly, each team gets ~8 matches to play in.

This also leads me to question why the MAR area needs the district system. This may be a topic for another thread, and has probably been beaten to death already; but seeing that there are 110 team in MAR, with 55 making it to MAR championships (and I don't recall there being that much growth in rookie teams this past year), why not throw another regional into the pot that used to be there already? (Philadelphia and Trenton)

[Steven Donow]

After volunteering at the Greater Pittsburgh regional this year, I can say that I truly miss the days of regionals in the MAR area. You got a full day to work out issues, get inspected, play real matches that are being reffed as they will be for the rest of the event. And if the practice day is run correctly, each team gets ~8 matches to play in.

This also leads me to question why the MAR area needs the district system. This may be a topic for another thread, and has probably been beaten to death already; but seeing that there are 110 team in MAR, with 55 making it to MAR championships (and I don't recall there being that much growth in rookie teams this past year), why not do another regional into the pot that used to be there already? (Philadelphia and Trenton)

$ee, there are plenty of rea$on$ a$ to why the di$trict $y$tem i$ better for the MAR region.


Also more play/many (myself included) love that a district system drastically "seasonizes" FIRST.

[Libby K]

$ee, there are plenty of rea$on$ a$ to why the di$trict $y$tem i$ better for the MAR region.

Also more play/many (myself included) love that a district system drastically "seasonizes" FIRST.

However, $ome team$ near the population center of the di$trict have to $hell out quite a bit more ju$t to afford going to all three of their event$ in one $ea$on that are all over an hour away. The decrea$ed co$t of running di$trict$ has now in$tead been put on the team$ for their travel expen$e$, and I'm not $ure that'$ worth it.

I think the Mid-Atlantic Region has a lot of growing pains to attend to as far as their events go. Fortunately, the President of MAR, Gene O'Brien, has been very receptive to suggestions recently, and I'm looking forward to see what improves for 2015.

[Ben Martin]

After volunteering at the Greater Pittsburgh regional this year, I can say that I truly miss the days of regionals in the MAR area. You got a full day to work out issues, get inspected, play real matches that are being reffed as they will be for the rest of the event. And if the practice day is run correctly, each team gets ~8 matches to play in.

This also leads me to question why the MAR area needs the district system. This may be a topic for another thread, and has probably been beaten to death already; but seeing that there are 110 team in MAR, with 55 making it to MAR championships (and I don't recall there being that much growth in rookie teams this past year), why not do another regional into the pot that used to be there already? (Philadelphia and Trenton)

Coming a region outside the district system into the MAR district system, I much, much prefer districts. Our district practice day is far more productive with six hours of unbag time prior (this has replaced a full day of practice, and this is one of the last things I would want to give back for more practice matches). I am a firm believer that having six hours of unbag time available in our shop before each district event has dramatically increased our team's competitiveness the past two years, and it is one of the reasons that many teams have found they can get away with not having a practice robot (a big cost savings).

The district system allows more teams to make it into eliminations, more teams the opportunity to win awards, and more matches is a huge, huge plus. Also, I lost less work days and students lost less school through going to our two district events than I did going to the Greater DC Regional or MAR Champs this year. Districts are one thing I would not change.

For ourselves, I'm not worried about travel costs. We are on the western fringes of MAR, and we have hotel and transportation fees for every in-season competition we go to. That was five competitions this year, and we may do the same for several offseasons as well. We have a pay-as-you-go model, which scales well with the number of competitions each year.

[pabeekm]

One small issue I had with this year's game (and don't get me wrong, I loved Aerial Assist) was how difficult it made scouting. Last year, scoring totals, accuracy, basic drivetrain statistics, and climbing results were about all you needed to know about a robot. This year, however, you needed to follow individual teams very closely on a match by match basis (what they did with the ball, how fast their mechanisms were, how smart the driver is, how much they fouled, how good their partners were, etc.) because very often the match outcome and how much was scored were out of the control of any one teammate. Also, you didn't need to just know how "good" a robot was, but had to be really aware of what roles they could fill. This complexity is good in that it encourages teams to watch the field and heightens the strategizing, but it really hurts teams who don't have the resources or infrastructure set up for watching every robot in every match of such a complex game.

At champs this issue was especially evident because with 100 teams on a field, some of those teams in the top tier had never even played together or against each other and were unaware of what the others could do! One thing they might be able to try next year (if the game is as complex as it was this year) is use the extra space to host more, smaller divisions (maybe 60 - 70 teams each). This would make keeping track of the teams much easier, and cause teams to play with each other more often on the field.

[Rebecca Wasmer]

Sort of related: Anyone know what happened to Spyder for Archimedes on Friday night? Somehow about 100 of the matches got deleted and there were only 22 teams in the division... Kind of threw me off.

On Friday night the Archimedes division had to play 4 replay matches. That evening the rankings only had 22 teams in the division because it only contained data from those 4 replay matches. Which caused a TON of confusion for many of my rookie team's parents back at home. They thought we were ranked 8th and the students spent a lot of time trying to explain that we were really in like 30th and the rankings for the evening were just wrong. :/

[Rebecca Wasmer]

To add on to this, I think if FIRST is going through the trouble of adding in more opportunities for judging of awards, we need to be getting better feedback everywhere. I was very disappointed and had a confused look on my face when I took the awards lead down to pit admin to collect the nonexistent feedback, but going back over the feedback sheets we did get at Alamo and Virginia, I wish we got better feedback.

FIRST has my email and contact info for myself and the other contacts in TIMS. 422 went to championships to see how we stack up against other teams and learn from them. While we had the opportunity to do that with the robot, it was very disappointing to not get that same experience from judges of the highest honor in FIRST. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that we are miles behind 33, 340, 503, 604, 1108, 2486, or the Hall of Fame teams when it comes to program quality, but I want to know exaclty where we need to be improving and to see if we are missing anything.

I know under the new structure judges are overworked, but I would like the detailed, digital feedback offered at one of Spectrum's events (Dallas or Lone Star?) to be available at every event including Championship.

Being an alumni from 340 who personally worked on Chairman's, an ex-website judge, and a mentor for many teams now I cannot even begin to tell you how important feedback is! Each year Dean gives homework, but that's often not the only guideline that the judges are looking for. When I worked on website and Chairman's for 340 the information from the judges was imperative when it came to not only improving for next year, but also knowing what we did well. It made it so the team rookies could also read/watch what was submitted and know the same thing. When the website award still existed and I judged, being able to tell the teams what they did and did not do well helped me judge them better.

[Chris Hibner]

Here's my biggest negative:

No published or adhered to field or FMS requirements. I made a post near the beginning of February about this: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1339607&postcount=3

My post above is with respect to hot goal timing. Given that there are no requirements, it's no surprise that hot goal timing was an issue all year.

Without hard requirements, there is nothing to test against. With nothing to test against, you can expect that your end product will not work as your customers expect. If hard requirement were published for the field (hot goal timing in particular) it would have been clear to Manchester that the field was not meeting the expectations of the competing teams.

Furthermore, how are we supposed to develop a control strategy to play the game without us having the field requirements?

[Andrew Schreiber]

Ok, I hate to be that guy but one of the lessons FIRST/RDs need to learn - Vegetarian food != just salad. I hate to complain about volunteer food but it's a small issue when I don't have time to run out and grab food somewhere else. Eating just salad for 2 meals a day for 3 days is not healthy. We have the same dietary requirements as the rest of you. If providing a vegetarian option is a problem let me know in advance and I'll make plans accordingly.

[Citrus Dad]

It would be far preferable to put it in the Match Results Page (http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/Events/archimedes/matchresults.html) instead of the Team Standings Page (http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/events/Archimedes/rankings.html), so we could have the info for each match rather than just the totals.

Or better yet, provide an API to the data instead of a web page that has to be scraped (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1378681&postcount=116).





I think a bigger issue is giving fuller and better access to the various results pages for scouting systems to access them easily.

Also, there were serious problems with results pages going down or not updating, including at Worlds this year. At the two most popular regionals, Waterloo and Silicon Valley, results were largely unavailable the entire first day. That doesn't make for good publicity.

[Citrus Dad]

Ok, I hate to be that guy but one of the lessons FIRST/RDs need to learn - Vegetarian food != just salad. I hate to complain about volunteer food but it's a small issue when I don't have time to run out and grab food somewhere else. Eating just salad for 2 meals a day for 3 days is not healthy. We have the same dietary requirements as the rest of you. If providing a vegetarian option is a problem let me know in advance and I'll make plans accordingly.

Here, here, for teams and spectators too! This is becoming a bigger issue as food production being recognized as a large contributor to climate change risk. (I can send folks stats if they are really interested.)

[Ether]

I think a bigger issue is giving fuller and better access to the various results pages for scouting systems to access them easily.

I thought that's essentially what I was saying ?

Fuller = make all scouting-relevant data that FMS has collected available (instead of summing/combining the data in ways that cause a loss of useful detail)

Better = an easy-to access documented and stable API instead of scraping web sites whose formats may unexpectedly change mid-season.

[Andrew Schreiber]

I thought that's essentially what I was saying ?

Fuller = make all scouting-relevant data that FMS has collected available (instead of summing/combining the data in ways that cause a loss of useful detail)

Better = an easy-to access documented and stable API instead of scraping web sites whose formats may unexpectedly change mid-season.




Mid Season? Mid event... We've been asking for this for YEARS. :(

[Toa Circuit]

Something small that I would really like to see (and I have no idea why they didn't do it this year) is clarification on the rules of the Dean's List interview, and a better feedback sheet. Currently, there is no mention of the time limit in the Dean's List section of the Administration Manual, and the feedback sheet was the most minimal thing I've ever seen. At least put in a "you can improve on" section!

This.
I had a whole one comment on my sheet... It was along the lines of 'keep spreading FIRST'. :/

I do have to say though- the whole interview process seems kinda a lottery. I mean, an essay and a five minute interview (that from what I could tell, was just to serve as clarification for details)? How much does that really tell? Unless you are going solely by statistics (number of teams started, assisted, what have you)...

In 4H (in my state), for the highest awards we get we have to keep thoroughly documented records, which are assesed at a county level, then a state level, and then there is an (approximately) hour long interview to complete, that gets recorded and debated over several times to select ~30 students from the state to send to congress.

Something a little more rigorous seems due if the award is truly to select the absolute cream of the crop...

(This isn't to say the winners of this years' award didn't earn it. I don't know if they did or not. I'd enjoy being able to read some of the essays that get submitted! :D I think they gave a brief summary upon presentation in 2012, IIRC)

Other things that are negative... I'm not too keen on the PR that FIRST is pushing. FIRST drew me in because it wasn't about pop culture, political correctness, and almost everything that was pushed during the closing ceremonies. It was about promoting producerism; getting students involved in the real world. Now it's too much about inspiring. It's a bit like setting gasoline on fire. It makes a nice big pretty fire that a lot of people will notice, but you could be using that gasoline to power your car and get you somewhere. People also notice fast cars. I really don't think we need to make FIRST loud- we need to make it profound and visible. People need to be joining this organization for the right reasons- and I personally think that if your main reason for joining is because a pop star endorses it... you're doing it wrong.

But that's the nice thing about FIRST- ultimately, the teams make up the heft of the organization and are the real face of FIRST.

Also, integration between TBA and FIRST scoring? YES PLEASE!

[Doug Frisk]

Ok, I hate to be that guy but one of the lessons FIRST/RDs need to learn - Vegetarian food != just salad. I hate to complain about volunteer food but it's a small issue when I don't have time to run out and grab food somewhere else. Eating just salad for 2 meals a day for 3 days is not healthy. We have the same dietary requirements as the rest of you. If providing a vegetarian option is a problem let me know in advance and I'll make plans accordingly.

That's more of a venue specific thing than related to FIRST specifically. You get what the venue provides when you order a vegetarian option. That said, the regional events I volunteered at had fairly decent vegetarian options, though I don't specifically recall seeing the vegetarian options in St. Louis.

Remember though, that a lot of these events are run on a shoestring. In Duluth; the Lake Superior and Northern Lights regionals they didn't even have coffee for the volunteers because it wasn't in the budget. Despite the fact that I'm pretty sure not serving coffee is a human rights violation I muddled on through.

So while I encourage the Event Managers to work so that the vegetarians get more than rabbit food I think that we as volunteers need to understand that some things just aren't within the control of the Event Manager/FIRST>

[Andrew Schreiber]

Remember though, that a lot of these events are run on a shoestring. In Duluth; the Lake Superior and Northern Lights regionals they didn't even have coffee for the volunteers because it wasn't in the budget. Despite the fact that I'm pretty sure not serving coffee is a human rights violation I muddled on through.

So while I encourage the Event Managers to work so that the vegetarians get more than rabbit food I think that we as volunteers need to understand that some things just aren't within the control of the Event Manager/FIRST>

That's why I even offered to take care of it myself, they just need to let me know. I'm more making a bit of noise to raise awareness among folks that vegetarians exist and have the same dietary requirements as the rest of you, we just cannot eat meat. Salad isn't a meal for anyone.

And, maybe all food should just be vegetarian then, turns out meat is quite expensive. :P Maybe then they'd have budget for coffee.

[Libby K]

I'm not too keen on the PR that FIRST is pushing. FIRST drew me in because it wasn't about pop culture, political correctness, and almost everything that was pushed during the closing ceremonies. It was about promoting producerism; getting students involved in the real world. Now it's too much about inspiring. It's a bit like setting gasoline on fire. It makes a nice big pretty fire that a lot of people will notice, but you could be using that gasoline to power your car and get you somewhere. People also notice fast cars. I really don't think we need to make FIRST loud- we need to make it profound and visible. People need to be joining this organization for the right reasons- and I personally think that if your main reason for joining is because a pop star endorses it... you're doing it wrong.

But that's the nice thing about FIRST- ultimately, the teams make up the heft of the organization and are the real face of FIRST.

Having these celebrities help bring FIRST to people who've never seen it before is important for the growth of FIRST. How are we ever going to get new teams and supporters if we just keep pushing to our own crowd?

Dean wants to make FIRST a household name, just like Girl Scouts or 4H - just to use examples of 'kid programs' that people know of even without being in the program.

We're about culture change. If the people society is currently celebrating (pop stars, star athletes) come out talking about this crazy robotics thing they just saw?! Well, those are some new audiences exposed to FIRST. That's the culture change we're looking for. Every student in the world knowing that FIRST is an option for them, and celebrating scientists and engineers for the rockstars they are. This is just the first step in that larger movement towards culture change.

[Kris Verdeyen]

Dean wants to make FIRST a household name, just like Girl Scouts or 4H - just to use examples of 'kid programs' that people know of even without being in the program.

We're about culture change. If the people society is currently celebrating (pop stars, star athletes) come out talking about this crazy robotics thing they just saw?! Well, those are some new audiences exposed to FIRST. That's the culture change we're looking for.

I think we all get that, and believe it. However - it doesn't seem appropriate to do it at the competition. I get more excited seeing Woody's reading list than I do seeing Will.I.Am perform his new song. There has to be a way to draw in those wayward souls without boring the choir.

[PayneTrain]

This.

Other things that are negative... I'm not too keen on the PR that FIRST is pushing. FIRST drew me in because it wasn't about pop culture, political correctness, and almost everything that was pushed during the closing ceremonies. It was about promoting producerism; getting students involved in the real world. Now it's too much about inspiring. It's a bit like setting gasoline on fire. It makes a nice big pretty fire that a lot of people will notice, but you could be using that gasoline to power your car and get you somewhere. People also notice fast cars. I really don't think we need to make FIRST loud- we need to make it profound and visible. People need to be joining this organization for the right reasons- and I personally think that if your main reason for joining is because a pop star endorses it... you're doing it wrong.


FIRST is a very interesting and unique creature. It is entirely unlike any traditional after-school extracurricular (it's both year round and seasonal! It's a sport but a club! It has community service opportunities and competitions!) bears little resemblance to extra curriculars outside of the school system like 4-H or scouting (the programs share a loose set of goals, but unless combined have very different ways of gettign there) and FRC itself is a unique robotics opportunity that cannot be equated to FTC/VRC.

FIRST turned 25 this year, and like a lot of 25 year olds, it's collecting wisdom on top of smarts, it's finally starting to act like an adult (communicating and adapting to a changing landscape never seemed paramount the first 3 years I was in the program), and it's applying experiences and past mistakes to improve. However another trait it shares with most in their mid-twenties is not necessarily a lack of direction, but lack of a pinpoint endgame. It has skills, talents, and does its job very well, but where does the organization see itself in 25 years?

It's not fun to talk about, but when you think of FIRST in its next 25 years, it's hard to imagine a lot of key people around for its first 25 years will be sticking around. People get sick and/or old and then they die, and it's important that (as far as we know) the FIRST National Advisor and the Founder of FIRST are not immune to this phenomenon. No question that we as the FIRST community have a great thing going. Sure, there is always room to improve, but FIRST and FRC especially will be one of a kind for as long as it lasts. But in 25 years are we going to be telling ourselves we did a great job growing this program together, or are we going to kick stones on the road of regret because we lost focus after those who came before us left the program to us?

Dean talks a lot because he always has soemthing big to say. The last two years he has realized that FIRST has almost hit the ceiling on its niche success with its current sponsorship pool and mentorship draw. There are places in these categories where teams have room to grow, but on a greater organizational level it is time to figure out how to make this program a true mainstream success. How are we going to do this together? I honestly have no clue. I mean, even Dean barely knows how and he is far more intelligent than me. What I do know is that the old way of cozying up to x defense contractor and y branch of the army and z school of engineering is not going to do anything else but put FIRST on autopilot until it runs out of gas. I'm willing to try this new way of "convert the pop culture icon to FIRST, then water 3 times a week and watch it grow" and see where it takes us.

[nfhammes]

That's why I even offered to take care of it myself, they just need to let me know. I'm more making a bit of noise to raise awareness among folks that vegetarians exist and have the same dietary requirements as the rest of you, we just cannot eat meat. Salad isn't a meal for anyone.

And, maybe all food should just be vegetarian then, turns out meat is quite expensive. :P Maybe then they'd have budget for coffee.

I know there's the food allergies / physical limitations section in VIMS, but I'd love to see them expand that, to help VCs get a better handle on the number of vegetarian / lactose-intolerant / gluten-free folk, to make it easier for them to get the right amount of food for everyone.

That said, the worst vegetarian food situation I've seen was two meals with salad as my only option, at a 3-day event. It could be better, but it could certainly be worse.

[Citrus Dad]

Dean talks a lot because he always has soemthing big to say. The last two years he has realized that FIRST has almost hit the ceiling on its niche success with its current sponsorship pool and mentorship draw. There are places in these categories where teams have room to grow, but on a greater organizational level it is time to figure out how to make this program a true mainstream success. How are we going to do this together? I honestly have no clue. I mean, even Dean barely knows how and he is far more intelligent than me. What I do know is that the old way of cozying up to x defense contractor and y branch of the army and z school of engineering is not going to do anything else but put FIRST on autopilot until it runs out of gas. I'm willing to try this new way of "convert the pop culture icon to FIRST, then water 3 times a week and watch it grow" and see where it takes us.

I agree with this sentiment. I think one potential growth path is to get school administrators to buy into the FIRST program as being consistent with their core educational mission. At least in California, they give it lip service, but little actual support for most teams. Michigan appears to be further along this path. Why not try to make FIRST as popular at football? It certainly is more relevant to today's world.

And I agree that FIRST needs to reach out through the pop culture. That might be done better outside of the competition venue, e.g., will.i.am releasing a video using FRC footage backed by his song.

[PayneTrain]

I agree with this sentiment. I think one potential growth path is to get school administrators to buy into the FIRST program as being consistent with their core educational mission. At least in California, they give it lip service, but little actual support for most teams. Michigan appears to be further along this path. Why not try to make FIRST as popular at football? It certainly is more relevant to today's world.

And I agree that FIRST needs to reach out through the pop culture. That might be done better outside of the competition venue, e.g., will.i.am releasing a video using FRC footage backed by his song.

While getting too deep into the subject would derail the thread, I do think the teams and local organizations should be prioritizing making FIRST more mainstream now that it has been made viable in locations both predictable (Michigan, California, New England) and somewhat surprising (Minnesota, Oregon). Think of your team's operating budget without any registration fees. That is a reality in Michigan. Now think of that happening not just for you, but every other team in the states and beyond. Without having to worry about having enough money jsut to show up anymore, teams can really get to work on far more noble and exciting causes with the same amount of money available.

[DampRobot]

I'm not too keen on the PR that FIRST is pushing. FIRST drew me in because it wasn't about pop culture, political correctness, and almost everything that was pushed during the closing ceremonies. It was about promoting producerism; getting students involved in the real world. Now it's too much about inspiring. It's a bit like setting gasoline on fire. It makes a nice big pretty fire that a lot of people will notice, but you could be using that gasoline to power your car and get you somewhere. People also notice fast cars. I really don't think we need to make FIRST loud- we need to make it profound and visible. People need to be joining this organization for the right reasons- and I personally think that if your main reason for joining is because a pop star endorses it... you're doing it wrong.

But that's the nice thing about FIRST- ultimately, the teams make up the heft of the organization and are the real face of FIRST.

I share similar feelings.

I think FIRST is trying to get literally everyone interested in FRC and in an FRC team, which I don't think is necessarily the best move. Pop Warner football is a huge part of our culture, and I sure don't think they literally want everyone to join one of their teams. No, they try to appeal to the kids that like running around, and who's dads like football. AYSO soccer is a much more inclusive organization, but even they don't seem to have endorsements from kids TV shows or musicians in order to get kids that wouldn't be otherwise interested to join. Instead, they try to be open positive, and fun, but not pushy about trying to get every kid to join.

FIRST should aspire to be like a high school sport: something that everyone knows about and generally has positive feelings towards, but that not everyone joins. We should be a niche thing (just like soccer or swimming or chess club or cheerleading...) where kids that are interested in building things or robots (or just want to try it out because it looks cool) do FRC. The rest of the school should have a general idea of what FRC is, but they don't necessarily have to join it in order for FIRST's mission to be accomplished.

The current push seems to revolve around painting FIRST as this huge pop culture phenomenon/cult thing when it really isn't. Using popular musicians to support FIRST is good and all, but I don't think it really gets that many new recruits, and I do know it alienates or appears silly to a good fraction of the FRC population. I think the best endorsers for FRC are people like Elon Musk, Jonny Ive or Dean himself, people who kids that might be interested in FRC look up to as cool leaders who have been successful through science and technology.

Also, keep in mind the smart kids demographic is far from tapped out. There are still tons of smart kids at my school who might be interested in FRC through a "FIRST is an awesome place where you build cool things" or a "FIRST makes what you're learning at school not boring" based marketing push rather than the "Science is rock and roll" thing they seemed to concentrate on so far.

[magnets]

I agree with DampRobot. FRC has always been a sort of "varsity" robotics sport, that doesn't make the game smaller to get more people involved, like Vex and FTC do. I was way more excited to watch the Cheesy Poof's autonomous mode than I was to watch will.i.am or that other singer person. Instead of trying to gain popularity by adding famous pop culture people to the program, they should focus on making the robotics/competition part of FIRST more exciting to the public. Associating the program with famous people may get some people to find out about the program, but it won't get the general public interested and invested in FIRST.

i also agree with PayneTrain, that FIRST is having some growing pains, and are working out some details with the organization.

[Moon2020]

A few thoughts on the topics at hand:

If you want world-wide recognition, you are going to have to reach out to world-wide brands and get them to feature FIRST on their products. Cocoa Cola, McDonalds, the Global Fortune 500 (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/global500/2013/full_list/?iid=G500_sp_full). Let's hope everyone is as curious as will.i.am.

Do any FRC students play sports (three-sport, varsity athletes) or are the students in band? Who is FRC really targeting? Are they targeting students who play neither a sport or instrument or are they targeting everyone? Is FRC exciting enough for a student to give up a game or competition to participate in a District meet or Regional?

We have lost ~72 FRC Teams in Florida since 2003. I can't sustain what I have; therefore, how am I going to grow it? If we can't sustain our FRC Teams, where are we going to be in 25 years? Granted, some of the loss was due to the J.C. Penney Grants going away and some of it was due to lack of Mentors. I also know that at least two of these 72 teams became FTC Teams. If I won a good-sized lotto, I'd ask each of them if they wanted to restart their team and give them each 50k to do it.

Yeah, food issues. I'm right there with you. I am 'sensitive' to sodium bisulfite (anti-browning agent on lettuce, shrimp, dried fruit, processed meats, pickled onions, sauerkraut, and rooster chili sauce) and sucralose (Splenda). Eating these things is completely out of the question for me. I'll take all the meat I can get between the gluten-free and regular table, but a nice gluten-free pasta, vegetable curry, meatless chili, fruit platter, vegetable platter, baked potato, falafel, hummus, beans/rice buffet, cooked vegetables, with cheese on the side for my vegetarian, lactose intolerant, and gluten allergy FRC, FTC, and FLL friends would be wonderful.

No coffee?! What?! In Northern MN? It's a staple food. I would never make it through the day! That must have been torture/cruel and unusual punishment.

[PVCpirate]

Do any FRC students play sports (three-sport, varsity athletes) or are the students in band? Who is FRC really targeting? Are they targeting students who play neither a sport or instrument or are they targeting everyone? Is FRC exciting enough for a student to give up a game or competition to participate in a District meet or Regional?


In my experience, yes and yes. At my school, something like a third of the FRC team was also part of the marching band at any one time during my 4 years. While we didn't have any "3-sport, varsity athletes"(possibly because they are a dying breed), we had various team members that played baseball, basketball, tennis, football, soccer or were on the ski team at some point in high school.

[Moon2020]

In my experience, yes and yes. At my school, something like a third of the FRC team was also part of the marching band at any one time during my 4 years. While we didn't have any "3-sport, varsity athletes"(possibly because they are a dying breed), we had various team members that played baseball, basketball, tennis, football, soccer or were on the ski team at some point in high school.

How did that work out? Any conflicts?

There were 7 people in my university design team group and 5 of them played university sports on scholarship. Many times, the sport conflicted with our design project (and we didn't even have to build anything in 6 weeks).

[Martian86]

How did that work out? Any conflicts?

There were 7 people in my university design team group and 5 of them played university sports on scholarship. Many times, the sport conflicted with our design project (and we didn't even have to build anything in 6 weeks).

On our team, we have people who participate in all kinds of other extracurriculars. The way we handle build season is we have five work days a week, and members have to meet a certain number of hours to go on the trip to competition (it varies year to year depending on a lot of things and is ultimately set by the captain, but the last two years it's been 80 hours). Most team members have a variety of conflicts, but the flexible structure of our team allows them to work around those conflicts.

[PVCpirate]

How did that work out? Any conflicts?

There were 7 people in my university design team group and 5 of them played university sports on scholarship. Many times, the sport conflicted with our design project (and we didn't even have to build anything in 6 weeks).

For the band, we would lose 1 or two build season nights because most of the important members were at a band thing, and there was always a certain competition season week that we wouldn't compete because of a yearly band trip. The sports were usually not in season during build season, but if people had a game or something it wasn't a big deal. My team had a "you get what you put in" model. If you didn't have a specific responsibility for a robotics meeting or event, missing it was your loss.

[ElvisMom]

Do any FRC students play sports (three-sport, varsity athletes) or are the students in band? Is FRC exciting enough for a student to give up a game or competition to participate in a District meet or Regional?

How did that work out? Any conflicts

At our ~450 student high school, a large percentage (>50%) of the kids are in band. Always a good idea to keep the band directors up to date on competition dates. Found out the hard way that band directors do not appreciate it when two sections (percussion and French horn) are almost totally missing during a concert! (Choir director doesn't like it when his soloists come back from competition two days before Spring concert with no voice, but thankfully the sound guy is also our programmer/electrician so he can work some magic there . . . )

WRT athletics, we have had a number of two sport athletes, including several state qualifiers. Only a few have participated in Winter sports, however. We have had students opt out of attending competition due to athletics and others give up their sport in favor of robotics. These decisions were made carefully and thoughtfully. The toughest are the kids (and parents) who end up unable to attend competition because they tried to "do it all" and missed team requirements as a result. (We've also had kids opt out of the semi-annual Spring break band trip because it conflicted with competition.)

In all seriousness, we work with the AD, principal and superintendent to ensure they are all aware of dates and schedules. Our parents are also proactive at parent-teacher conference time and remind individual teachers of upcoming dates and even which students are involved in the current year. But with a small school, robotics has about the same % student body involvement as most of the varsity sports which helps.

[221Sarahborg]

Having consistent judging, by being in Week 2 and 3 Regionals then watching the Champs, the way the judging and calls were made compared to each other I thought wasn't fair. We lost matches because of unclear calls and even waiting for a Volunteer to get a ball that went out of the field back to the human player. Not that it actually was based off of this observation, but after Week 3 they added a rule about violent ramming into other robots, which I think was brought in after Woodie Flowers came and watched KC where some teams were hitting others pretty hard when they didn't need to for any necessary reasons that I could say. So the volunteers and judges having a handle on how to rule the game early on could be improved somehow.

[Citrus Dad]

Yeah, food issues. I'm right there with you. I am 'sensitive' to sodium bisulfite (anti-browning agent on lettuce, shrimp, dried fruit, processed meats, pickled onions, sauerkraut, and rooster chili sauce) and sucralose (Splenda). Eating these things is completely out of the question for me. I'll take all the meat I can get between the gluten-free and regular table, but a nice gluten-free pasta, vegetable curry, meatless chili, fruit platter, vegetable platter, baked potato, falafel, hummus, beans/rice buffet, cooked vegetables, with cheese on the side for my vegetarian, lactose intolerant, and gluten allergy FRC, FTC, and FLL friends would be wonderful.

This is NOT a 3-hour sporting event where a fan may buy one meal and a snack. The World Championships are a 3-day event with may students at the venue for 12 hours eating 2 to 3 meals. This means the FIRST MUST demand a much higher quality food product out of the Edwards Dome vendors than what they provide for a Rams football game. If the vendor is unwilling to provide that food, then FIRST MUST break that contract with vendor and seek outside vendors who can provide a full well-round menu plan that is suitable for teenagers over a 3-day period. The current situation is unacceptable and if FIRST is truly looking out for the interests of its student members, it needs to demand MUCH more from the current vendors.

[rsisk]

Having consistent judging, by being in Week 2 and 3 Regionals then watching the Champs, the way the judging and calls were made compared to each other I thought wasn't fair. We lost matches because of unclear calls and even waiting for a Volunteer to get a ball that went out of the field back to the human player. Not that it actually was based off of this observation, but after Week 3 they added a rule about violent ramming into other robots, which I think was brought in after Woodie Flowers came and watched KC where some teams were hitting others pretty hard when they didn't need to for any necessary reasons that I could say. So the volunteers and judges having a handle on how to rule the game early on could be improved somehow.

<PetPeeve>Referees where the striped shirts, they make the call on the field. Judges where blue shirts and come by your pits for interviews and high five teams during awards. Safety judges wear green shirts and make sure everyone is staying safe</PetPeeve>

And now back to our regular programming....

[CTbiker105]

The current situation is unacceptable and if FIRST is truly looking out for the interests of its student members, it needs to demand MUCH more from the current vendors.

I agree completely. I can only stomach so much grease laden food in 3 days. And while it would be nice to get food from restaurants outside the stadium, I would imagine the majority of teams do not allow students to do so during lunch break.

[Ernst]

I agree completely. I can only stomach so much grease laden food in 3 days. And while it would be nice to get food from restaurants outside the stadium, I would imagine the majority of teams do not allow students to do so during lunch break.

For lunch every day we had a parent get food from a restaurant (usually something like subs or sandwiches) and bring it to the parking lot across from Entrance A. We saved money and ate better. There were a lot of teams eating out on the sidewalks and in that parking lot. I'm sure that whatever food vendor FIRST has a contract with isn't too thrilled about that, but given the choices that they offer it isn't difficult to see why so many people just don't eat their food.

[asid61]

I feel like the primary reason why it will be hard for FIRST to become a sport-like organization is due to the lack of adult equivalent. People who join a high school FRC team probably won't have a job in FRC in the future, at least not a televised sporting event.
Sports such as basketball, soccer, swimming, etc. can all be seen at a national level with adults playing. FRC is restricted to high schools, so it's a lot harder for people to see that kind of spread.
In addition, the competition that people really want to see is championships in St. Louis, because many of the robots are on par with each other. At regionals or lower levels, there is a more clearly defined line between uber-teams and not-uber-teams.

On the other hand, robots going at it definitely has its appeal for a lot of people. It puts it on par with something like football just for the cool factor and the mindset that "wow, kids built something like that?"
I think if FIRST advertised enough, like with flyers or posters, it would attract a lot more people to it. First they would come see the competitions, even at a regional level, then they would sign their kids up later.

[Nemo]

I feel like the primary reason why it will be hard for FIRST to become a sport-like organization is due to the lack of adult equivalent. People who join a high school FRC team probably won't have a job in FRC in the future, at least not a televised sporting event.

The adult equivalent is the job where you work with other people to solve difficult problems, applying many of the same skills practiced in FRC. Instead of an elite league that hardly anybody can get into, we have an entire economy that almost any properly prepared adult can participate in.

[Moon2020]

This is NOT a 3-hour sporting event where a fan may buy one meal and a snack. The World Championships are a 3-day event with may students at the venue for 12 hours eating 2 to 3 meals. This means the FIRST MUST demand a much higher quality food product out of the Edwards Dome vendors than what they provide for a Rams football game. If the vendor is unwilling to provide that food, then FIRST MUST break that contract with vendor and seek outside vendors who can provide a full well-round menu plan that is suitable for teenagers over a 3-day period. The current situation is unacceptable and if FIRST is truly looking out for the interests of its student members, it needs to demand MUCH more from the current vendors.

Keep in mind I was commenting about the food provided for Volunteers vs. the food provided for Teams in response to a previous post. I agree with you though: it's not a 3-hour sporting event; it's a week-long event with long hours for the Teams and the Volunteers. I wonder if the EJD VIP Suite catering could be more involved for the general attendee's special dietary needs. BTW I watched/heard an FLL team struggle with the breakfast menu in our hotel due to several of the team members having a vegetarian diet.

asid61 and Nemo, if you are looking for a transition event from FRC to the real-world, NASA Mining Competition (http://www.nasa.gov/offices/education/centers/kennedy/technology/nasarmc.html) can provide the undergrad and graduate student transition prior to the real-world.

[Ether]

Eating just salad for 2 meals a day for 3 days is not healthy.

Depends on what's in the salad. If the salad is mostly just lettuce yes.

The ones my wife makes for me have broccoli, spinach, zucchini, carrots, tomato, mushrooms, radish, onions, celery, and a bit of romaine lettuce; dressed with olive oil, vinegar, and a dash of salt and pepper. I could live on that. Some days I do :-)

[Andrew Schreiber]

Depends on what's in the salad. If the salad is mostly just lettuce yes.

The ones my wife makes for me have broccoli, spinach, zucchini, carrots, tomato, mushrooms, radish, onions, celery, and a bit of romaine lettuce; dressed with olive oil, vinegar, and a dash of salt and pepper. I could live on that. Some days I do :-)





Yeah, I wish. NOPE. Most of them are some mediocre lettuce and cherry tomatoes.

[dag0620]

This is NOT a 3-hour sporting event where a fan may buy one meal and a snack. The World Championships are a 3-day event with may students at the venue for 12 hours eating 2 to 3 meals. This means the FIRST MUST demand a much higher quality food product out of the Edwards Dome vendors than what they provide for a Rams football game. If the vendor is unwilling to provide that food, then FIRST MUST break that contract with vendor and seek outside vendors who can provide a full well-round menu plan that is suitable for teenagers over a 3-day period. The current situation is unacceptable and if FIRST is truly looking out for the interests of its student members, it needs to demand MUCH more from the current vendors.

Guys please keep in mind that in many venues that FIRST works with (possibly including EJD), when you sign the contract to rent the venue, often your obligated to only use only the in-house retails locations to sell food to the public, and you have to use the in-house catering for any other food needs (Volunteers, VIPs etc.). There is a very good chance FIRST's hands are tied in this case.

[Nemo]

Guys please keep in mind that in many venues that FIRST works with (possibly including EJD), when you sign the contract to rent the venue, often your obligated to only use only the in-house retails locations to sell food to the public, and you have to use the in-house catering for any other food needs (Volunteers, VIPs etc.). There is a very good chance FIRST's hands are tied in this case.

I think most of us understand this. On the other hand, these events create positive economic impact where they're held, and cities want these contracts, right? Doesn't FIRST have any bargaining leverage to influence the terms of the contract?

[Shrub]

Adding to this (very tasty) food discussion: 3 members on my team have prominent food allergies and it has made it very difficult to find food they can eat. At the two MN regionals I've been to, one sold hot dogs and I think ice cream down by the pits (I usually went out to eat), and in the other the only food they sold was pretzels, hot dogs, and nachos (and of course ice cream). Thankfully the hot dog buns there were gluten free. It's really unhealthy for growing teenagers to just eat greasy food all day on top of going to bed at 2 am to wake up at 6 am and exerting their bodies while under stress.

Another thing that seriously irked me were the prices. I had to pay nearly 5 dollars for a water bottle. I don't have the money to do that three days in a row (they check our bags every morning) on top of having to pay for dinner, and I can assume a lot of other teenagers can't either. I feel as though FIRST should at least try to lower the prices as to allow people with lower incomes to not become sick/faint at their competitons.

Sorry if this came off as irksome, but I am very irked.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Guys please keep in mind that in many venues that FIRST works with (possibly including EJD), when you sign the contract to rent the venue, often your obligated to only use only the in-house retails locations to sell food to the public, and you have to use the in-house catering for any other food needs (Volunteers, VIPs etc.). There is a very good chance FIRST's hands are tied in this case.

So wait, it's acceptable to ignore dietary needs of a significant portion of the population because it's convenient?

[rsisk]

So wait, it's acceptable to ignore dietary needs of a significant portion of the population because it's convenient?

I didn't see the poster mention convenience, only contract obligations. The large arenas usually to require their in house services be used.

[tStano]

Do any FRC students play sports (three-sport, varsity athletes) or are the students in band? Who is FRC really targeting? Are they targeting students who play neither a sport or instrument or are they targeting everyone? Is FRC exciting enough for a student to give up a game or competition to participate in a District meet or Regional?



I'm a junior, and 2 sport athlete: Cross Country(where I'm a captain) and Track, all 3 years so far in high school. I've been varsity/near varsity for the past 2 years(though I've been deproving as I get more involved in robots, probably due to lack of decent rest, and build season eating habits :rolleyes:). Conveniently track and cross end at 5 and robots starts at 5:30, so I can attend meetings and practice, but it means not getting home until 9, and still needing to eat, shower, "do homework".

I have given up several track meets where I could have done well to go to robotics regionals(my coach was not pleased).

I tried wrestling for a while last year, but (among other reasons) its really hard to do a sport in the winter(build season) with robotics and IB-level homework, when you have robotics meetings and practice for 3 hours each every day. However, during the winter, I do attend 1-hour track conditioning practices 3-4 days a week and participate in chemistry olympiad.



I don't want to see the grades and/or sanity of a 3-sport varsity athlete who is truly involved with robots, if its even possible.

[dodar]

I'm a junior, and 2 sport athlete: Cross Country(where I'm a captain) and Track, all 3 years so far in high school. I've been varsity/near varsity for the past 2 years(though I've been deproving as I get more involved in robots, probably due to lack of decent rest, and build season eating habits :rolleyes:). Conveniently track and cross end at 5 and robots starts at 5:30, so I can attend meetings and practice, but it means not getting home until 9, and still needing to eat, shower, "do homework".

I have given up several track meets where I could have done well to go to robotics regionals(my coach was not pleased).

I tried wrestling for a while last year, but (among other reasons) its really hard to do a sport in the winter(build season) with robotics and IB-level homework, when you have robotics meetings and practice for 3 hours each every day.

I don't want to see the grades and/or sanity of a 3-sport varsity athlete who is truly involved with robots, if its even possible.

I was able to do Football, Soccer, and Robotics during my 4 years in high school while taking all honors classes. Football slightly hindered the time and events I could go to to fundraise and soccer was during build season but I still was able to thoroughly be there more than most others. I wouldnt have changed it for anything else in the world; I can happily say I was on a championship caliber robot team, championship caliber football team, and soccer....well soccer was fun.

[Abhishek R]

I'm a junior, and 2 sport athlete: Cross Country(where I'm a captain) and Track, all 3 years so far in high school. I've been varsity/near varsity for the past 2 years(though I've been deproving as I get more involved in robots, probably due to lack of decent rest, and build season eating habits :rolleyes:). Conveniently track and cross end at 5 and robots starts at 5:30, so I can attend meetings and practice, but it means not getting home until 9, and still needing to eat, shower, "do homework".

I have given up several track meets where I could have done well to go to robotics regionals(my coach was not pleased).

I tried wrestling for a while last year, but (among other reasons) its really hard to do a sport in the winter(build season) with robotics and IB-level homework, when you have robotics meetings and practice for 3 hours each every day. However, during the winter, I do attend 1-hour track conditioning practices 3-4 days a week and participate in chemistry olympiad.



I don't want to see the grades and/or sanity of a 3-sport varsity athlete who is truly involved with robots, if its even possible.

Yeah, I've given up Division 1 soccer and some other clubs like Science Olympiad and FBLA (FRC is more fun anyway) to have more time for robotics. Combined with all these AP courses these days, it's quite a lot when you're trying to be as involved as you can with the team. A lot of our team members are in some sort of music, and from time to time we have major conflicts (in 2013 a good portion of the team was missing one of our regionals because of a large band trip).

Somehow I've managed to still be playing in the orchestra.

[Andrew Schreiber]

I didn't see the poster mention convenience, only contract obligations. The large arenas usually to require their in house services be used.

Then it needs to be stipulated in the contracts that alternative dietary needs will be respected or that folks will be allowed to bring in food to meet those dietary conditions.

[rsisk]

Then it needs to be stipulated in the contracts that alternative dietary needs will be respected or that folks will be allowed to bring in food to meat those dietary conditions.

Yep, totally agree

[Aren Siekmeier]

Then it needs to be stipulated in the contracts that alternative dietary needs will be respected or that folks will be allowed to bring in food to meet those dietary conditions.

This is not well advertised, but unlike most regional venues, we are allowed to bring our own food into the dome and convention center. The bag search people haven't ever cared about food or beverages that I've seen, they're just there for security. The staff at our regional events often make me dump out bottles of tap water before entry, only for me to refill them on the other side...

However, like you have said, if they can't provide alternatives, what will be available to volunteers (and to the general public) should be well communicated so that people can at least plan to provide for themselves if needed.

[Citrus Dad]

For lunch every day we had a parent get food from a restaurant (usually something like subs or sandwiches) and bring it to the parking lot across from Entrance A. We saved money and ate better. There were a lot of teams eating out on the sidewalks and in that parking lot. I'm sure that whatever food vendor FIRST has a contract with isn't too thrilled about that, but given the choices that they offer it isn't difficult to see why so many people just don't eat their food.

We've done the same for the last 4 years. I parked in the closest spot each morning because our scouting team wanted to be near the front of the line :yikes: so that helped getting out for lunch too. But most teams don't have that option, and it would be nice to have something edible inside the stadium.:ahh:

[Citrus Dad]

Guys please keep in mind that in many venues that FIRST works with (possibly including EJD), when you sign the contract to rent the venue, often your obligated to only use only the in-house retails locations to sell food to the public, and you have to use the in-house catering for any other food needs (Volunteers, VIPs etc.). There is a very good chance FIRST's hands are tied in this case.

For a large scale multiple day event that other cities would like to capture, FIRST has negotiating leverage. The city or Edwards Dome management can force the vendor to comply.

[thegnat05]

Do any FRC students play sports (three-sport, varsity athletes) or are the students in band? Who is FRC really targeting? Are they targeting students who play neither a sport or instrument or are they targeting everyone? Is FRC exciting enough for a student to give up a game or competition to participate in a District meet or Regional?


My freshman year in high school I played traveling hockey, was on varsity quiz bowl, in theatre and on the speech team. All of those are winter activities and it just wasn't possible to do everything plus FRC and school. I ended up dropping all of my activities except for speech in order to commit to my FRC team and take up leadership roles. Overall I believe that FRC is exciting enough to give up other things to be a part of.

That being said I am a FIRST addict and am always talking about robotics to my friends and basically anyone that will listen. Some of my friends ended up giving up their saturday to come down to the U of M to support my team at regionals. When they got there they were drawn in by the energy, the size, and the excitement of the event and they went to school on monday talking about it.

FIRST is something unique and special in my mind. FIRST is targeting everyone in my opinion and it is most definitely exciting enough.

[Answer42]

It's really unhealthy for growing teenagers to just eat greasy food all day on top of going to bed at 2 am to wake up at 6 am and exerting their bodies while under stress.



I agree that there should be more choice in food, but.... This happens, literally all the time. I'd even go so far as to say it's the norm. Even if there were a variety of choices available I'm sure plenty of kids would still buy the cheap greasy stuff. As long as they're getting enough calories to keep going, I'd wager 3 days isn't going to do them any harm.

[Moon2020]

I wonder what the catering is like on the EJD VIP-level.

I have been to VIP level at TBTF in Tampa (Tampa Bay Lightning) and AC in Orlando (Orlando Magic/Solar Bears) and the food/beverage is quite different. That is why I asked if the EJD VIP-level caterer could be more involved.

[Andrew Schreiber]

I wonder what the catering is like on the EJD VIP-level.

I have been to VIP level at TBTF in Tampa (Tampa Bay Lightning) and AC in Orlando (Orlando Magic/Solar Bears) and the food/beverage is quite different. That is why I asked if the EJD VIP-level caterer could be more involved.

Not much better. Nor were the VIP dinners. And when asking about vegetarian options we (I was sitting with several other vegetarians) got a bit of flak.


(This post merely to provide information, I'm not really complaining just letting folks know this is an issue at all levels of the event... and I'm apparently the only very vocal proponent that alternate diets should be respected)

[Citrus Dad]

Not much better. Nor were the VIP dinners. And when asking about vegetarian options we (I was sitting with several other vegetarians) got a bit of flak.


(This post merely to provide information, I'm not really complaining just letting folks know this is an issue at all levels of the event... and I'm apparently the only very vocal proponent that alternate diets should be respected)

Maybe I'm not being so direct, but I absolutely agree with you.

[Citrus Dad]

I agree that there should be more choice in food, but.... This happens, literally all the time. I'd even go so far as to say it's the norm. Even if there were a variety of choices available I'm sure plenty of kids would still buy the cheap greasy stuff. As long as they're getting enough calories to keep going, I'd wager 3 days isn't going to do them any harm.

Yes, many kids will continue to make poor dietary choices, but that doesn't mean that everyone should be FORCED to make poor choices. At least among our team members, healthy dietary choices are important. And perhaps your observation is true of a single meal (as I mentioned comparing this to a Rams game), but over a 3 day period (or longer for some teams), being forced to eat junk can have a deleterious effect on several fronts than can take a while to recover from. Please don't dismiss other people's concerns so cavalierly.

[Lil' Lavery]

I wonder what the catering is like on the EJD VIP-level.

I have been to VIP level at TBTF in Tampa (Tampa Bay Lightning) and AC in Orlando (Orlando Magic/Solar Bears) and the food/beverage is quite different. That is why I asked if the EJD VIP-level caterer could be more involved.

While it certainly wasn't favorable to alternative diets, the quality of food in the VIP areas was substantially higher than elsewhere.

[nuclearnerd]

I just wanted to mention that, while the box-lunch Salad on Friday was pretty meagre, the veggie burger on Saturday was one of the best I've ever had. I think it was rice and black beans; whatever it was it tasted amazing.

[Moon2020]

Thanks. I was trying to gather all internal to EJD food options: teams, volunteers, and VIPs since my knowledge is limited to EJD Volunteer food. I get to smell the grease from the funnel cake stands on the way to/from the dome or on my way to/from the Volunteer food room. In four years, I've never eaten outside the Volunteer room (or what was provided to us in the pit by our VC) when on duty in Americas Center.