RoboRio

[Bpk9p4]

I was wondering if anyone talk to NI at worlds about the RoboRIO and got any new information. Also did they give a date for when it will be released for teams to buy.

[Bmarshall645]

It comes in the 2015 kit of parts. They said it should be available for teams to buy fall of this year i'm pretty sure.

[Bpk9p4]

hopefully we can get it in the fall or earlier. would be stressful to learn everything about the RoboRIO during the build season

[RufflesRidge]

December was the date given for RoboRIO availability. October for the CTRE components.

[cgmv123]

If you want the new system early, you can sign up to be a beta test team.

[Ben Wolsieffer]

December was the date given for RoboRIO availability. October for the CTRE components.

Do you have any idea when that would be available and how to sign up?

[DjParaNoize-]

Does anyone have a CAD for the roboRIO?

[tnlsharp]

Found this on the NI site: https://decibel.ni.com/content/docs/DOC-30419

[Tom Line]

If you want the new system early, you can sign up to be a beta test team.

That is a very bad reason to sign up for beta. Beta is about giving your all to the community by telling them everything you can. Not trying to get hardware early.

[Alan Anderson]

If you want the new system early, you can sign up to be a beta test team.

If you want the new system early, you can offer to put in serious time and effort as a beta test team. If you are accepted, in return for that effort, you will be permitted to use a borrowed RoboRIO for a few months.

[Jon Stratis]

As an Alpha test team, I can tell you that the system is pretty straightforward. The libraries are (so far) practically identical to what we're currently using, so programming shouldn't be a problem. As for hooking it all up... I think it's easier to get up and running than the cRio, and shouldn't take any time at all to figure out - It's all just labeled PWM ports, just like we have today with the DSC and the breakout boards. There really shouldn't be all that much for anyone to learn come the build season, and I would imagine just about any team will be able to take it on in stride.

Having been through one transition previously (from IFI to cRio), I can tell you this one is nothing like it. When the cRio was introduced, everything was different. Now, it's the same old stuff with more power in a smaller package and a few new features you don't even need to worry about if you don't want to.

[cgmv123]

I wasn't trying to encourage anyone to sign up to be a beta test team just to get the new hardware. I was trying to point out the fact that it's not impossible to get the new hardware before October/December, for the right reasons.

[Taylor]

Do you have any idea when that would be available and how to sign up?

They said that each team will receive one in the KoP this year, rookies in subsequent seasons will receive one in the KoPs, and they'll be available at a heavy discount through AndyMark in the fall to all teams.

[Dale]

In the Q&A at champs they said it would sell for under $500 and be available through AndyMark. They said December for general availability, sadly. There will be no limits on the number of them you can buy. I imagine forecasting how many to make right away will be a challenge,

[iliampatterson]

Does anyone remember the beta test signup link that was on the NI flyer given out at champs?

[Joe Ross]

Does anyone remember the beta test signup link that was on the NI flyer given out at champs?

Here is the link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/JLTYSGS

[Tem1514 Mentor]

Having been through one transition previously (from IFI to cRio), I can tell you this one is nothing like it. When the cRio was introduced, everything was different. Now, it's the same old stuff with more power in a smaller package and a few new features you don't even need to worry about if you don't want to.

Please, please, please tell us more. What "new" features are there. I have heard that there will only be 4 solenoid outputs. What is the true story? And on the subject, will we still be able to use 12 or 24 volt solenoids Directly from controller?

I have so many more questions but lets start here.

[Dale]

It has four relay outputs for Spikes but I imagine you could use those to drive 8 Solenoid valves unless the rules prohibit it. There is a new Pneumatic Control Module from Cross The Road Electronics that communicates over CAN and provides support for many more valves and compressor control.

https://decibel.ni.com/content/docs/DOC-30419

http://uwinfirst.com/Files/roboRIO%20Specification%20Flyer.pdf

[Jon Stratis]

As Dale said, you'll probably be controlling your solenoids through the Pneumatics Control Module (PCM). It has specific ports to plug in the compressor and pressure switch, ports for solenoids, and a jumper to let you switch from 12 to 24 volts. It sits on the CAN bus, which lets you add several PCM's if you have enough solenoids to need to (in otherwords, you're no longer limited to the 16 you can currently have with 2 pneumatic modules in the cRio).

New features include native support for CAN on the RoboRio (no more serial to CAN converters), USB host and USB device support, native ports for most outputs (no need for a digital sidecar or breakout boards), and an expansion port to give you as many ports as you'll probably want.

[markmcgary]

native ports for most outputs (no need for a digital sidecar or breakout boards), and an expansion port to give you as many ports as you'll probably want.

I've read many threads on CD discussing the robustness, or lack thereof, of the Digital Sidecar. In our first two years, we had never had a problem with a DSC. In 2014, we lost at least three DSCs.

So, I wonder how robust will be the DSC that is now integrated into the RoboRIO? If the integrated DSC dies, do you also lose the entire RoboRIO?

[Jon Stratis]

I've read many threads on CD discussing the robustness, or lack thereof, of the Digital Sidecar. In our first two years, we had never had a problem with a DSC. In 2014, we lost at least three DSCs.

So, I wonder how robust will be the DSC that is now integrated into the RoboRIO? If the integrated DSC dies, do you also lose the entire RoboRIO?

Don't think of it as an integrated DSC... it's just the controller. If the controller dies, then yes, you lose the controller! It's all together on one circuit board.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Don't think of it as an integrated DSC... it's just the controller. If the controller dies, then yes, you lose the controller! It's all together on one circuit board.

I didn't get a chance to come by at CMP but every prototype I've seen has had male pins on the controller. Perhaps someone can explain who thought this was a good idea? Male pins belong on cheap/easily replaceable components not on the core controller. They bend, they break, they accumulate chips. Is the plan to stick with male headers on the RoboRio?

[AllenGregoryIV]

I didn't get a chance to come by at CMP but every prototype I've seen has had male pins on the controller. Perhaps someone can explain who thought this was a good idea? Male pins belong on cheap/easily replaceable components not on the core controller. They bend, they break, they accumulate chips. Is the plan to stick with male headers on the RoboRio?

I was told the RoboRIO we saw at champs was most likely the final hardware, so yes they are sticking with the male pins on the main controller.

[cadandcookies]

I was told the RoboRIO we saw at champs was most likely the final hardware, so yes they are sticking with the male pins on the main controller.

Unfortunate. Maybe for R2?

Either way, seriously looking forward to the new controller. I doubt it will be worse than cRIO/DSC in terms of reliability and I've heard of so many improvements. I might not be directly involved with a team next year but I'll still have to swing by a tournament (or two) to check out the new controllers.

[Andrew Schreiber]

I was told the RoboRIO we saw at champs was most likely the final hardware, so yes they are sticking with the male pins on the main controller.

*sigh*

What's the spacing on the pins? I guess I'll go about trying to source some sort of adapter to make it harder for my students to destroy.

[Joe Ross]

*sigh*

What's the spacing on the pins? I guess I'll go about trying to source some sort of adapter to make it harder for my students to destroy.

Did you destroy pins on the IFI controller?

[Andrew Schreiber]

Did you destroy pins on the IFI controller?

I saw a fair number of them get mangled. Personally I just feel that it's safer to put female connectors on more expensive components due to them being harder to damage.

[adciv]

In the Q&A at champs they said it would sell for under $500 and be available through AndyMark. They said December for general availability, sadly. There will be no limits on the number of them you can buy. I imagine forecasting how many to make right away will be a challenge,

Considering my I would buy at least 4 (in addition to the one in the KOP), yes.

*sigh*

What's the spacing on the pins? I guess I'll go about trying to source some sort of adapter to make it harder for my students to destroy.

Standard 0.1"/2.54mm spacing. Also, the part number for the breakout connector mate is On-Shore Tech SH4-34G-RP or SH2-34G-P (http://download.ni.com/evaluation/academic/myRIO_Daughterboard%20_Templates%20.pdf). I think the connector they are using on the RIO Itself is On-Shore Tech 302-S341.

I recommend using the MXP port, if possible, as your adapter for this. For those of us who remember 3.5" floppies, it looks to be the same keyed connector, so if we can source 34-pin ribbon cables....

[adciv]

Please, please, please tell us more. What "new" features are there. I have heard that there will only be 4 solenoid outputs. What is the true story? And on the subject, will we still be able to use 12 or 24 volt solenoids Directly from controller?

I have so many more questions but lets start here.

There are 8 solenoid outputs per solenoid module. Each module can be separately set for 12v or 24v. The modules connect by CAN to the RoboRio. I am not exactly sure what the current limit is for CAN modules (need to update the software), but it will be more than two. The number we heard was high enough, we're debating what it would take to make a robot that walks.

[Chris Endres]

They did talk to our head Electrical mentor, we are signed up for a full Beta testing this summer/fall. I haven't heard anymore specific details about RoboRIO, but all I know is that we get more mechanical room next year. :D

[orangemoore]

They did talk to our head Electrical mentor, we are signed up for a full Beta testing this summer/fall. I haven't heard anymore specific details about RoboRIO, but all I know is that we get more mechanical room next year. :D

It depends on the space your looking for. It has a larger footprint but a much lover profile giving more "vertical spacing" depending on the orientation.

[Mark Sheridan]

I didn't get a chance to come by at CMP but every prototype I've seen has had male pins on the controller. Perhaps someone can explain who thought this was a good idea? Male pins belong on cheap/easily replaceable components not on the core controller. They bend, they break, they accumulate chips. Is the plan to stick with male headers on the RoboRio?

I talked to an NI engineer at the booth. He was one of the designers and he said he would have recommended industrial connectors for the system but he said compromises were made to work with existing hardware. NI pushed for higher quality connectors and systems. That is why CAN is returning but CAN lacks a universal connector in industry and the system was "simplified" to using bare wire.

I think there was a fear that teams with less resources would struggle using industrial standards and the system was made to be similar to what is currently used. I could tell that NI wanted to introduce FIRST to more professional stuff but there was a reluctance to move to far away from the current model.

Its a shame cause I was hoping FIRST would move away from the bare wire connectors like the WAGO but it looks like they are going to stay . I really wish the PD board came different options, I want one with powerpole 45s board mounted.

[Mr V]

It depends on the space your looking for. It has a larger footprint but a much lover profile giving more "vertical spacing" depending on the orientation.

Overall it has a smaller footprint since it replaces the cRIO and DSC.

[Tom Line]

One of the first questions asked by the alpha teams was about electrical protection. First and NI are quite aware of what would happen if a controller was fried, and we were assured that it is far more resistant to electrical failure than the old DSC.

[Alan Anderson]

One of the first questions asked by the alpha teams was about electrical protection. First and NI are quite aware of what would happen if a controller was fried, and we were assured that it is far more resistant to electrical failure than the old DSC.

The question was also one of the first asked at the RoboRIO Q&A session during the Championship. The answer: not only is it "expected" to survive electrical mishaps, it is designed and tested to do so.

[suhaskodali]

On the beta testing, is there a frc blog post this year similar to this one: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-8-16-12 ? So that we know the due date for application, and can confirm the validity of the survey, https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/JLTYSGS?

[cgmv123]

The question was also one of the first asked at the RoboRIO Q&A session during the Championship. The answer: not only is it "expected" to survive electrical mishaps, it is designed and tested to do so.

Basically, you can short any pin/connector to any other pin/connector or put battery voltage on any pin/connector and the RoboRIO will survive.

[Aren Siekmeier]

I was told the RoboRIO we saw at champs was most likely the final hardware, so yes they are sticking with the male pins on the main controller.

Besides protection, you generally want female pins on the powered side of a connection to prevent shorts. Sounds like the rRio is designed to take such faults, but even so...

*sigh*

What's the spacing on the pins? I guess I'll go about trying to source some sort of adapter to make it harder for my students to destroy.

Should not be terribly difficult to come up with. I imagine (and hope) the spacing is the same .100 used elsewhere.

[rich2202]

Anyone else take a close look at the Pneumatics Control Module? The picture showed the compressor directly connected to the PCM. Unfortunately, no one was around to answer questions.

IMHO: I doubt they want to put that much current through the PCM, and the display graphic should probably have shown the Compressor connector going into a Spike Relay, which is then connected to the Compressor (like they show the motors).

[Mr V]

Anyone else take a close look at the Pneumatics Control Module? The picture showed the compressor directly connected to the PCM. Unfortunately, no one was around to answer questions.

IMHO: I doubt they want to put that much current through the PCM, and the display graphic should probably have shown the Compressor connector going into a Spike Relay, which is then connected to the Compressor (like they show the motors).

No connecting the compressor to the pneumatics control module directly is how it is designed to work, makes it cheaper and easier than the previous system with the spike.

[Pratik Kunapuli]

I also heard that with this new control system, the Java IDE is changing from Netbeans to Eclipse. Can anyone confirm this?

[Andrew Schreiber]

I also heard that with this new control system, the Java IDE is changing from Netbeans to Eclipse. Can anyone confirm this?

Yes. The C++ one is also changing from everything I've heard.

I'm sad about Java but welcome the C++ change. Windriver was... well it was special.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Yes. The C++ one is also changing from everything I've heard.

I'm sad about Java but welcome the C++ change. Windriver was... well it was special.

I am sad about the move to eclipse as well, I've grown pretty fond of netbeans the past few years. Though, it'll be nice to have both languages on one platform.

[AustinH]

Are there CAD models available for the new components in addition to the RoboRio?

[NotInControl]

I also heard that with this new control system, the Java IDE is changing from Netbeans to Eclipse. Can anyone confirm this?

For Alpha Testing, the WPI Library plugins were developed for Eclipse. I would assume WPI will continue to follow suite and provide the eclipse plugin for eclipse coming the 2015 Season.

I can not confirm 100% at the moment that WPI plans to ditch netbeans altogether for Java. In 2012, they provided both Eclipse and Netbean plug-ins. But did not provide Eclipse plug-ins for 2013 or 2014.

What I can confirm is that for C++: WPI is moving from Windriver to Eclipse (which is free).

However, even if WPI only provides the official plugin for Eclipse, it is not impossible to set up Netbeans to develop for the RoboRio Arm processor and deploy on your own.

For Java this is easy, because all you need to do is add the WPI Library to your linker in netbeans. Since Java compiles to byte-code it is platform independant and no cross-compilation is necessary.

For C++: It is not impossible to set-up netbeans to cross-compile for the Arm Processor. The cross-compiler (g++) used on eclipse can be used in netbeans to provide an Arm Executable.

After the binary is built for either language, all you need to do then is transfer the binary to the device, and SSH into the RoboRio to run the program. This is essentially what the "Deploy" Ant script provides, and their is no reason why you just can't reuse the Ant Script to do this for you.

Currently for Java, netbeans is the supported IDE, however, I have my entire team setup using eclipse, we don't use netbeans for anything. We have been using Java and Eclipse for the last 3 seasons for FRC. I prefer to set up the build on our own, even if WPI provided us with an eclipse plug-in because I can run my own customizable build script. For example, after my build script creates the Jar File and transfers it to the cRIO, it then runs through my Java Code and generates a HTML version of the Javadoc for the code we wrote for the Robot - which is very handy. This is all functionality anyone can have.

I personally like eclipse, but for those that want to still use Netbeans, there will always be a way to make it work with some limitation, even if it is not fully supported by WPI.

In the past, I have provided turotials for teams to setup eclipse for Java development on FRC. Before the Fall, I will make sure to provide a video tutorial of how to setup netbeans for the RoboRio development.

At the end of the day, you are free to use any IDE you like, as long as you can link to the WPI provided libraries and are comfortable SSH'ing into the linux device on your own.

Regards,
Kevin

[krieck]

For the Java alpha testers, can you tell us what version of Java will be used (6, 7 or 8)?

Also, I'd read somewhere that the roboRIO will use "Java SE Embedded". Can anyone comment on the difference between Embedded Java and the Java SE desktop SDK?

[NotInControl]

For the Java alpha testers, can you tell us what version of Java will be used (6, 7 or 8)?

Also, I'd read somewhere that the roboRIO will use "Java SE Embedded". Can anyone comment on the difference between Embedded Java and the Java SE desktop SDK?

We were running Alpha Testing Using JavaSE Embedded, based off of JavaSE 7 (Not sure what Update version at the moment)

I would imagine that WPI would like to stick with Java 7 for 2015 because that is what will be the most tested by that time. However, sticking with 7 is not written in stone, and if they are comfortable enough, they can upgrade to JavaSE Embedded 8.

As for the Differences between JavaSE and JavaSE Embedded. Don't think of it this way because it will be hard to convince yourself you need JavaSEEmbedded. Instead think of it like this: JavaSE Embedded, is the upgrade of Java ME CLDC.

Java SE Embedded derives from JDK, but provides specific features and support for the embedded market on a limited set of supported platforms. The embedded-specific features and support include additional platforms, small footprint JREs (optional files removed), headless configurations, and memory optimizations.


The reality is Java ME CDC and CLDC technology is Oracle's legacy technology that addresses embedded devices that had more than 1MB RAM and 10MB ROM. "Java SE Embedded is a new generation Java Embedded Platform that addresses devices that have [a little more] resources, but also allows them to access the latest APIs and functionality as is present in JavaSE. Truthfully, Java ME and Java SE Embedded address different segments of the embedded market. The Java ME CLDC and CDC offerings are designed for resource-limited devices including cell phones, handsets and media players. The APIs of CLDC and CDC are more limited than Java SE but enable these ME offerings to support devices with small footprints. Java SE Embedded provides the rich functionality of Java SE and is targeted at higher-end embedded devices - generally, those devices with at least 32MB RAM and 11MB - 20MB of ROM for a Linux/ARM platform." - From Oracle.

Hope this helps,
Kevin

[Andrew Schreiber]

For the Java alpha testers, can you tell us what version of Java will be used (6, 7 or 8)?

Also, I'd read somewhere that the roboRIO will use "Java SE Embedded". Can anyone comment on the difference between Embedded Java and the Java SE desktop SDK?

From what Omar (CTRE) was telling me at CMP it will be full blown Java 8. This was a shock to me, everything I'd heard was Java 7 up until that point.

[NotInControl]

From what Omar (CTRE) was telling me at CMP it will be full blown Java 8. This was a shock to me, everything I'd heard was Java 7 up until that point.

This should not be a shock, and should not be a fear. As I mentioned in my previous post:

...However, sticking with 7 is not written in stone, and if they are comfortable enough, they can upgrade to JavaSE Embedded 8....

Java SE 8 Embedded was released sometime in March 2014. As Alpha testers we were using JavaSE 7 with latest patch because that was the latest technology available when we started alpha testing (Nov 2013).

Alpha testing was just that, Alpha. If FIRST/NI/WPI chooses to move to 8, we still have 7-8 Months of development time with SE 8. Ultimately it doesn't matter if it is 7 or 8.

There is no huge shift between Java SE Embedded 7 and Java SE Embedded 8 that is cause for concern, so no need for panic. And as an end user just writing code for the target, you don't really gain or loose much with either 7 or 8.

Any upgrade from 7 to 8 will not affect us as the end user for FRC applications.

Regards,
Kevin

[Andrew Schreiber]

This should not be a shock, and should not be a fear. As I mentioned in my previous post:


I wasn't really scared by it. More excited. After years of being many years (if not decades) behind the times it seems we are finally moving to modern languages where students can learn similar practices on their bots as they would their desktop apps.

Now, if only we could get Ruby to run on these things... (I jest, my day job is ruby and I do a ton of development in it, at this point I think in it and have to translate to other languages)

[Ben Wolsieffer]

I am so glad for the upgrade to a modern version of Java (whether it be 7 or 8), because of the many times I have tried to use any of Java's cool features and been unable to (ex. enumerations, generics).

I hope FIRST will still provide support for Netbeans, because I favor it over Eclipse, but the change really isn't that big a deal (its still the same code).

[jagen31]

From what Omar (CTRE) was telling me at CMP it will be full blown Java 8. This was a shock to me, everything I'd heard was Java 7 up until that point.

Yeah I attended a presentation at championships, and the panel there said it was shipping with Java SE 8 in the fall season.

Lambda Expressions anyone?

Also, CAN integration is pretty awesome (even the talons have it now.) Hopefully the roboRIO handles collisions better because when we tried CAN bus, the cRIO would die with a timeout exception (of course that could have been a wiring issue, I suppose.)

Another important thing they mentioned was that the terminating resistor is in the Power Distribution Panel, meaning you have to (well, you don't HAVE to, but its the easiest solution) daisy-chain all the breakout boards between the roboRIO and the PDP.

At least, this is what I've heard. I'm sorry if this is already common knowledge, I just thought it was important.

Also, netbeans support is not being dropped, says Brad Miller.

[Ben Wolsieffer]

Also, netbeans support is not being dropped, says Brad Miller.
That's good. I'm glad to hear that I can still use my favorite IDE. :)

Will the Talons really have support for CAN next year?

The current hardware doesn't support it AFAIK so will they release a new version? We were considering buying Talons to replace our Jaguars, but since I knew CAN would be easier to implement on the robotRIO end next year, I wanted to try it. I was reluctant to buy Talons because they don't currently have CAN support, but if they will next year then its a win-win for me (smaller size + more reliability + fancy sensor feedback). Do you know if the Talons will support all the potentiometer and encoder feedback the Jaguar does?

At least, this is what I've heard. I'm sorry if this is already common knowledge, I just thought it was important.
Your post was not common knowledge (at least for me) and you made me even more excited about next year.

[jagen31]

Talons will definitely have CAN support. A cross the road electronics employee was there speaking for it.

Because it is CAN I would assume there is a way of getting info from the Talon but I'm not sure.

I do know that the voltage of each PWM output can be retrieved, if that's any help.

[virtuald]

Now, if only we could get Ruby to run on these things... (I jest, my day job is ruby and I do a ton of development in it, at this point I think in it and have to translate to other languages)

There's no reason you couldn't run ruby on the cRio, if we can get python working on it I'm sure ruby would work too. I imagine it should be pretty straightforward, especially for the RoboRio.

[jagen31]

The roboRIO, certainly, as it runs linux... But I think that the cRIO running VxWorks might be more troublesome... I haven't seen a port of ruby to run on VxWorks.

If you do get ruby working, don't build a climbing bot because Ruby can't scale.

[virtuald]

The roboRIO, certainly, as it runs linux... But I think that the cRIO running VxWorks might be more troublesome... I haven't seen a port of ruby to run on VxWorks.

And nobody had built a python port for vxWorks until we did it either. It's vaguely POSIX ish, so it would be troublesome, but doable. Probably not worth the effort at this point since it won't be used anymore -- but totally doable. And the SWIG wrappers used by the Lua version of WPILib could be a good starting point too.


If you do get ruby working, don't build a climbing bot because Ruby can't scale.

Nice. :)

[Thad House]

Since the RoboRio runs arm linux, and they finally recently got Hard Float Mono working, I really want to try and see if running robot code with C# would actually be possible. It would be fun.

[wireties]

Yes. The C++ one is also changing from everything I've heard.

I'm sad about Java but welcome the C++ change. Windriver was... well it was special.

C++ and Java using Eclipse was pitched in the sessions upstairs. I did not hear anything about NetBeans. Wind River Workbench is also Eclipse-based though heavily customized. If only our Wind River licenses had included the memory, profile and stethoscope analysis tools...

[wireties]

The roboRIO, certainly, as it runs linux...

The NI guys emphasized over and over again it was REALLY LINUX (their emphasis). I don't know why on earth you would do such a thing but Ruby should be possible.

[SoftwareBug2.0]

The NI guys emphasized over and over again it was REALLY LINUX (their emphasis). I don't know why on earth you would do such a thing but Ruby should be possible.

Maybe you can run the whole C++ toolchain on it? That would be convenient.

[tech2077]

Maybe you can run the whole C++ toolchain on it? That would be convenient.

You could run the whole enviroment on it, but from having worked with embedded linux environments, you'll have to have an amazing amount of patience. Maybe for something quite it may be convenient, but by the time you finish compiling the project on the roboRIO, you probably could have booted your computer, compiled the code, uploaded, and restarted your code in the same time.

[crake]

The NI guys emphasized over and over again it was REALLY LINUX (their emphasis).

Sure you didn't hear "REAL TIME LINUX"?

[wireties]

Sure you didn't hear "REAL TIME LINUX"?

Nope, that is what the presenter repeated over and over again. If you look at the literature on the NI web site it says "embedded Linux with real-time extensions". Recent changes to the Linux kernel to make it scale better (in SMP environments) and to handle streaming I/O better (play video and audio) put Linux (straight from kernel.org) firmly in the soft real-time category. I'm not sure if the distro on the RoboRio will include an alternate scheduler or just have all the real-time stuff turned on and/or use embedded versions of user space libraries and utilities. It will be interesting to see what we get.

[wireties]

Maybe you can run the whole C++ toolchain on it? That would be convenient.

You probably could but I don't think you would want to. Cross-compiling on a workstation will be muuuuch faster.

[lemiant]

Are there any recordings of some of these conferences? I'd love to learn more about the roboRIO.

[Ben Wolsieffer]

Are there any recordings of some of these conferences? I'd love to learn more about the roboRIO.

Yeah, I'd like to see some of them too. Them sounded really interesting and I wish I could have been at the championship to see them.

[Joe Ross]

On the beta testing, is there a frc blog post this year similar to this one: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-8-16-12 ? So that we know the due date for application, and can confirm the validity of the survey, https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/JLTYSGS?

I suspect a blog post or email blast will be coming before too long. I've attached a copy of the flier that was handed out.

[Joey1939]

My favorite features

1. Linux: Full linux shell and features are just an ssh away
2. Java 8: No explanation needed
3. Units and Measures: In java pots will directly return an angle and encoders a distance
4. Eclipse: Already my standard IDE gains FRC
5. 5 second launch: The java program is saved on the roboRio as a jar. The jar is uploaded and launched without reboot in under 5 seconds.
6. PCM: Makes compressor control much easier

(Quick Note: Because of the linux shell you can run whatever java version you want)

[SoftwareBug2.0]

You probably could but I don't think you would want to. Cross-compiling on a workstation will be muuuuch faster.

I'd be interested to know how much slower it is. Maybe 10x? I don't have a good sense of how many cycles on an ARM Cortex A9 is equivalent to a cycle on a recent x86. Anybody seen a good comparison?

[wireties]

I'd be interested to know how much slower it is. Maybe 10x? I don't have a good sense of how many cycles on an ARM Cortex A9 is equivalent to a cycle on a recent x86. Anybody seen a good comparison?

There is more to it than the throughput of the processor. On the robot there will be less memory (and paged memory may be disabled), less cache and less non-volatile storage though I reckon one could attach a USB drive. I think the core of the i7 is roughly 25X faster (it is hard to make a apples-to-apples comparison) but the effective throughput of the i7 is much higher.

[Nemo]

Does the new power board supply 12 V or 24 V power to the RoboRio? I'm just wondering if the minimum voltage went up or down as compared to FRC-cRIO-II, because the spec sheet Joe uploaded lists 6.8V as the minimum voltage.

The NI page (https://decibel.ni.com/content/docs/DOC-30419) has a spec sheet that says there's a staged brownout from 4.5V-6.8V. Is that new? My understanding is that the current PDB feeds 24V to the cRio, so 4.5V of battery voltage (plus a bit for resistance losses) can meet the 9-30 V power requirement. If that requirement goes up to 6.8 V or down to 3.4 V, that has implications for robot design.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Does the new power board supply 12 V or 24 V power to the RoboRio? I'm just wondering if the minimum voltage went up or down as compared to FRC-cRIO-II, because the spec sheet Joe uploaded lists 6.8V as the minimum voltage.

The NI page (https://decibel.ni.com/content/docs/DOC-30419) has a spec sheet that says there's a staged brownout from 4.5V-6.8V. Is that new? My understanding is that the current PDB feeds 24V to the cRio, so 4.5V of battery voltage (plus a bit for resistance losses) can meet the 9-30 V power requirement. If that requirement goes up to 6.8 V or down to 3.4 V, that has implications for robot design.

It's connected directly to the PD board battery supply (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1366518&postcount=52).

I can't find the post but I read that they made it to allow for teams to mess up and hook it up to 24 volts without destroying it.

[Nemo]

It's connected directly to the PD board battery supply (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1366518&postcount=52).

I can't find the post but I read that they made it to allow for teams to mess up and hook it up to 24 volts without destroying it.

Thanks for the link. It will be interesting to see how far teams are able to push their overpowered drive trains with the new system. Fortunately, having CAN on the power board and in Talons will make it easier to figure out where the limits are.

[Tom Line]

Thanks for the link. It will be interesting to see how far teams are able to push their overpowered drive trains with the new system. Fortunately, having CAN on the power board and in Talons will make it easier to figure out where the limits are.

The PD board will have real-time monitoring capability on the different channels. That means it should be trivial to monitor the current draw of your motor systems and dynamically manage the system to send the power where you want it for the maximum amount of time.

I can already see writing a power management VI where I can prioritize and limit the motor setoutput based on current draw.

[adciv]

I'd be interested to know how much slower it is. Maybe 10x? I don't have a good sense of how many cycles on an ARM Cortex A9 is equivalent to a cycle on a recent x86. Anybody seen a good comparison?

If you can point me to a benchmarking application, I'll try to run it on the RoboRIO. If you want another comparison between the old & the new, please see this (slide 9) (http://www.robobees.org/?subtopic=downloads&action=info&id=58). I ran the same test on a 2012 i7 and it was getting 200+ FPS at 640x480 so I took it out of the comparison. Also, please note this was only using one of the two RoboRIO cores.

Side note, from what I've learned at NI Days, the new RIOs have two task schedulers. One is for RT, one is for non-RT.

I recommend reading over the Introduction to NI Linux Real-Time (http://www.ni.com/white-paper/14627/en/).

[byteit101]

(Quick Note: Because of the linux shell you can run whatever java version you want)

He he, well yes, but have fun with that! Java 8 is the only java that works out of the box with no funny flags.

Also somebody was wondering what kind of linux it is: 3.2 kernel (3.2.35-rt52-2.0.0a4 #1 SMP PREEMPT RT armv7l) and its based on OpenEmbeded/Angstrom (it has opkg (dpkg-like) package management). Uses busybox for most things.

I would also not recommending running gcc on it, but you can use stock gcc for cross compiling. I've been using g++ 4.6 armel from the ubuntu 12.04 repositories just fine, though the binutils in the repos don't support a flag as they were too old, so I had to upgrade if I cared to see that flag be labled (worked perfectly find though).

[dubiousSwain]

5. 5 second launch: The java program is saved on the roboRio as a jar. The jar is uploaded and launched without reboot in under 5 seconds.


This is a thing? So excited now

[Tom Line]

3. Units and Measures: In java pots will directly return an angle and encoders a distance

Keep in mind the amount of work you will have to do is the same. You'll still have to supply a scaling factor to get an accurate angle, because the rRIO doesn't know if you are using a 1 turn pot, a 10 turn pot, or a 54 inch string pot. The same caveat holds true for the encoders.

I didn't realize in the past that Java didn't have a function that just allowed you to supply a scaling factor when you declare the sensor. That's how LabVIEW has always had it.

[one_each]

Full Java 8 next year! :yikes: I guess we can just use JavaScript (via Longhorn) as our scripting language. Can't wait until they are ready to order. I think I will save some vacation time to work on some open source. :D

[wireties]

Side note, from what I've learned at NI Days, the new RIOs have two task schedulers. One is for RT, one is for non-RT.

OTS Linux has multiple scheduling algorithms - a priority-based pre-emptive scheduler for real-time (non-zero POSIX priority) and fair scheduling algorithm for everything else (POSIX priority is zero). And then there is the scheduling algorithm for interrupt threads in the kernel.

[Joe Ross]

You can pre-order a roboRIO now from AndyMark (but it won't ship until December). http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-3000pre.htm

If you don't want to order yet, you can fill out a form indicating how many you want to buy, so to help gauge interest. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1eiZiRIDff9WF1PxsZ4Rmzqa9SoGGiIHNexDI4-_t59A/viewform?usp=send_form

[Thad House]

Anybody have any idea when the supporting parts (PD board, Pneumatics board and Regulator board) will be available? Same time as the roboRIO?

[Aren Siekmeier]

Anybody have any idea when the supporting parts (PD board, Pneumatics board and Regulator board) will be available? Same time as the roboRIO?

Also, anyone know when we can hope for CAD files of these? The roboRio is already available at https://decibel.ni.com/content/docs/DOC-30419. Waiting for the rest of them to complete the picture :)

[MrRiedemanJACC]

Has anyone see timing on when we would find out if we are a beta-testing team? My co-mentor applied for it, but I don't think we have found out anything. He is starting a Labview Academy next year at our Career Center and I can't wait for the fun we'll have!

[RufflesRidge]

Has anyone see timing on when we would find out if we are a beta-testing team? My co-mentor applied for it, but I don't think we have found out anything. He is starting a Labview Academy next year at our Career Center and I can't wait for the fun we'll have!

The application doesn't close until May 30th so I wouldn't expect to hear anything before that. Probably 1st or 2nd week of June would be my guess.

[MrRiedemanJACC]

Ahh gotcha, sorry I was thinking it was end of April the application was due, not the end of May. Thanks!