9th Seed not Getting Picked for Elims?

[daliberator]

Hey guys,
I was wondering if any of you have ever been in the position where your team placed 9th in quals and didn't get picked for elims?

This year at the MN state championships, we seeded 5th (With the top 4 teams being alliance captains) and were almost certain we would go on, but to our surprise, we didn't. Our drive team was absolutely stellar the whole time, which further confused us. I know we didn't have our full scouting team so we didn't go around and sell ourselves to the top teams, but even so, I would've thought our performance would've been enough.

I'm not mad about it, per se, more curious if you guys have had experiences similar to this.

Also, congrats to the winners of the MN State Championship! I can't recall team #'s atm, but it was a great event all aroun and you all deserved the win.

P.S. Huge shoutout to 2052 Knightkrawlers! You guys were so awesome at 10,000 Lakes, Champs, and MHSL! One of our mentors is an alum of yours and he has done so much for our team and really is one of the main reasons we got as far as we did this year.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Yeah... 2012 at CMP. Seeded 9th did not play in the afternoon (79)

[jijiglobe]

To seed 9th and not make elims would also imply no interpicking amongst alliance captains. It happens but at most competitions at least one interpick occurs. That must be a really dissapointing experience T_T

[OZ_341]

2001 at Champs. (err...Nationals)

We were in the top 8 for most of the competition, then lost one match, fell to 10th. Did not get selected.

[Boe]

I just want to say that you guys did amazing at state and built a great bot that honestly more teams should have built something similar to.

I was the captain out on the field and made the call for the first alliance to pick 4778. You guys were next on our list but ultimately we went with stormbots because they had a consistent hot high goal auton and could truss or pass back to the hp depending on what our alliance needed.

[Jon Stratis]

I've seen it happen before, and I've seen teams that I've been sure would be playing sitting in the stands during elims. Scouting is a difficult task for everyone - you're attempting to gather imperfect information in order to make a decision that ultimately affects your ability to win the competition. Even the best scouting systems out there aren't perfect.

The State Championship this past weekend saw an incredibly even field during qualifications. From my view watching most of the matches, there weren't any robots that really stood out above the others, and there weren't any that were bad. Anyone could have been in any alliance during elims... at that point the scouters were making decisions based on very small differences.

Additionally, this game presents an interesting difference from previous games. Previously, you could more or less figure out who would be picked based on a simple point differential - each alliance would take the first available team who can either score the most points or prevent the other alliance from scoring the most. This year, there was a lot more strategy involved, looking for robots who could fill specific roles - in bounder, trusser, assister, scorer. It didn't pay to get two robots that were the best in one of those roles.

[Nick Lawrence]

One of the most famous ones I remember is 610 at FLR in 2009.

They were seeded 9th, and declined an invitation from an alliance. None of the top 8 picked each other after that, leaving 610 to sit out on Saturday afternoon.

Ouch.

-Nick

[daliberator]

I just want to say that you guys did amazing at state and built a great bot that honestly more teams should have built something similar to.

I was the captain out on the field and made the call for the first alliance to pick 4778. You guys were next on our list but ultimately we went with stormbots because they had a consistent hot high goal auton and could truss or pass back to the hp depending on what our alliance needed.

Thank you so much! You have no idea how much that means coming from an awesome team like you guys. Your team had by far one of the most impressive machines there and I know a lot of our guys were oogleing at your bot between matches.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Henry,
We moved up to ninth at Champs this year after the first round of picks and sat out. It happens.

[TedG]

One of the most famous ones I remember is 610 at FLR in 2009.

They were seeded 9th, and declined an invitation from an alliance. None of the top 8 picked each other after that, leaving 610 to sit out on Saturday afternoon.

Ouch.

-Nick
I don't know what the rules were in 2009, but for atleast the last 4 years, if you are outside the top 8 seeded teams and decline an invitation, you're done anyway.

[BigJ]

I don't know what the rules were in 2009, but for atleast the last 4 years, if you are outside the top 8 seeded teams and decline an invitation, you're done anyway.

Not if you get bumped into the top 8 by in-picking. It only prevents you from being picked, not picking.

Now I'm curious if a team in the top 8 or gets bumped into the top 8 can decline an alliance captain spot on the basis of a non-functioning robot (a reason you'd decline an invitation from outside the top 8 most of the time).

[Uniwersel]

I don't know what the rules were in 2009, but for atleast the last 4 years, if you are outside the top 8 seeded teams and decline an invitation, you're done anyway.

If someone picks out of the top 8, the 9th seed becomes an alliance captain. If another team is picked from the top 8, the 10th seed becomes a captain. So if you decline when you're out of the top 8 you're taking a gamble, but you're not completely done.

Edit: I got ninja'd..

[Christopher149]

Not if you get bumped into the top 8 by in-picking. It only prevents you from being picked, not picking.

Now I'm curious if a team in the top 8 or gets bumped into the top 8 can decline an alliance captain spot on the basis of a non-functioning robot (a reason you'd decline an invitation from outside the top 8 most of the time).

In 2011 at West Michigan, 2153 declined their bumped-up invitation to be #8 captain, IIRC, for traveling-home reasons. So, it's happened.

[Libby K]

I don't know what the rules were in 2009, but for atleast the last 4 years, if you are outside the top 8 seeded teams and decline an invitation, you're done anyway.

Right - but if there had been interpicking there, the #9 seed would have moved up and had the right to select their own alliance (What I'm assuming 610 was going for in that instance). Still, a harsh lesson in "you never know what's going to happen". Yeowch.

Edit:: Someone else beat me to it. Oops.

[Citrus Dad]

One of the most famous ones I remember is 610 at FLR in 2009.

They were seeded 9th, and declined an invitation from an alliance. None of the top 8 picked each other after that, leaving 610 to sit out on Saturday afternoon.

Ouch.

-Nick

That was self inflicted. And a lesson to any team outside the top 8.

[Citrus Dad]

Henry,
We moved up to ninth at Champs this year after the first round of picks and sat out. It happens.

That is much more common. A team could be as low as the 17th seed in that situation.

[Citrus Dad]

Additionally, this game presents an interesting difference from previous games. Previously, you could more or less figure out who would be picked based on a simple point differential - each alliance would take the first available team who can either score the most points or prevent the other alliance from scoring the most. This year, there was a lot more strategy involved, looking for robots who could fill specific roles - in bounder, trusser, assister, scorer. It didn't pay to get two robots that were the best in one of those roles.

There's two corollaries:
1) The seedings this year were much more often defined by the alliance partners a team had. A team at IER this year made the top 8 even though it was just a drive train.

2) Teams had to pick much more for specific roles on the field. We were a midfielder, but so was 868 in Newton who was second. We needed a front court robot and 1114 fit the bill. We could see that choice being made down through the first round of selections.

[JamesCH95]

I have heard:

'We thought you had already been picked.'

and

'We never thought you would be available when we were picking, so we crossed you off our list.'

Just goes to show you that teenagers put center-stage and forced to make a significant decision with only a few minutes consideration can make mistakes. Who'd a thunk it?

[Monochron]

Just goes to show you that teenagers put center-stage and forced to make a significant decision with only a few minutes consideration can make mistakes. Who'd a thunk it?

I would say that was a case of poor planning or lack of attention to detail, not some issue with teenage abilities.

[Ian Curtis]

I have heard:

'We thought you had already been picked.'

and

'We never thought you would be available when we were picking, so we crossed you off our list.'

Just goes to show you that teenagers put center-stage and forced to make a significant decision with only a few minutes consideration can make mistakes. Who'd a thunk it?

That sounds about right, since it seems about 10% of teams asked to join an alliance at any given event are not actually at that event. :ahh:

[AdamHeard]

That sounds about right, since it seems about 10% of teams asked to join an alliance at any given event are not actually at that event. :ahh:

Or are already picked.... or the #1 seed... etc...

[Jon Stratis]

I would say that was a case of poor planning or lack of attention to detail, not some issue with teenage abilities.

I would agree with this...

Too many teams get up there without a pick list, and we hear too many picks for teams that aren't at the event (I heard this even happened on one of the Champs divisions this year!), or have already been picked, etc.

It's all about planning and preparation. We have our scouting program up, it exports an exhaustive pick list (seriously... every team at an event is on our pick list), and our team representative just types the numbers into the spreadsheet in another column as they've been picked, and those teams are automatically removed from the list. A little prep goes a long way...

What really disturbs me is the "We never thought you would be available when we were picking, so we crossed you off our list." With our list, the only teams that are ever crossed off before selection starts are maybe one or two our drive team feels they can't work productively with. Being overbearing, treating the team dismissively, or being plain jerks is one sure way to ensure our team won't pick you, even if you have the best robot out there.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Now I'm curious if a team in the top 8 or gets bumped into the top 8 can decline an alliance captain spot on the basis of a non-functioning robot (a reason you'd decline an invitation from outside the top 8 most of the time).
Yes, it happened last year in Milwaukee. More Robotics broke and were asked to join the alliance. In one of the best declines I ever heard, the team rep explained the robot had a fault that could not be corrected in time and offered all of their scouting data to the alliance that asked them. I am very happy to know them and believe them to be a World Class Team for showing the ultimate in GP.

[BigJ]

Yes, it happened last year in Milwaukee. More Robotics broke and were asked to join the alliance. In one of the best declines I ever heard, the team rep explained the robot had a fault that could not be corrected in time and offered all of their scouting data to the alliance that asked them. I am very happy to know them and believe them to be a World Class Team for showing the ultimate in GP.

Oh yeah, I remember that.

I more meant like, say, 1675 is ranked 6th at a regional but knows their robot broke in the last match and is "unfixable" -- are they forced to remain an alliance captain and leave 2 unwitting alliance members to a backup bot? Or can they "graciously" step out of contention and have each other team move up a seed?

[Jon Stratis]

I can't find anything in the rules that lays out a process for an alliance captain to decline, BigJ. But one sure way to do it is to not be present for alliance selection!

A year ago at North Star I had a team pack up their pit and start to haul stuff out before alliance selection. One of my inspectors caught them when they were asking for the garage door to be opened so they could leave, and pulled me in to talk with them. The team was very upfront and had obviously spent some time thinking things through. They told me they were well aware of their robot's capabilities and they were positive they weren't going to be picked. They wanted to load up the truck and get started on the several hour drive home they had.

After a bit of back and forth, I asked them what seed they were. After all, a team seeded 60th who is positive they won't be picked and wants to leave before alliance selection could be seen as a gracious decline. But that's not where they were seeded. No, they were the 9th seed. Once I heard that, I ordered them back to their pit. I explained that I've seen enough alliance selection and enough matches to know that XXXX was going to pick YYYY, and they were going to be an alliance captain. Turns out, they captained the 7th place alliance.

I imagine that, if the team really had packed up and left, everyone would have shifted up and they essentially would have been skipped.

[Max Boord]

I remember at one of the east coast events teams in the top 8 were asked if they wanted to become an alliance captain.

[Christopher149]

I can't find anything in the rules that lays out a process for an alliance captain to decline, BigJ. But one sure way to do it is to not be present for alliance selection!

A year ago at North Star I had a team pack up their pit and start to haul stuff out before alliance selection. One of my inspectors caught them when they were asking for the garage door to be opened so they could leave, and pulled me in to talk with them. The team was very upfront and had obviously spent some time thinking things through. They told me they were well aware of their robot's capabilities and they were positive they weren't going to be picked. They wanted to load up the truck and get started on the several hour drive home they had.

After a bit of back and forth, I asked them what seed they were. After all, a team seeded 60th who is positive they won't be picked and wants to leave before alliance selection could be seen as a gracious decline. But that's not where they were seeded. No, they were the 9th seed. Once I heard that, I ordered them back to their pit. I explained that I've seen enough alliance selection and enough matches to know that XXXX was going to pick YYYY, and they were going to be an alliance captain. Turns out, they captained the 7th place alliance.

I imagine that, if the team really had packed up and left, everyone would have shifted up and they essentially would have been skipped.

+1 to ordering them back to be captain :D :rolleyes:. How did they do in elims?

[GaryVoshol]

Now I'm curious if a team in the top 8 or gets bumped into the top 8 can decline an alliance captain spot on the basis of a non-functioning robot (a reason you'd decline an invitation from outside the top 8 most of the time).
It happened a few years ago at another MI District event. The team had already qualified for State, and wanted to use the pit time. (Plus, it gave another team a chance to get points.) The scouting captain was on the sidelines with me in 9th or 10th and wondered if he could decline if he got moved up. Eventually he declined to be the captain the 7th alliance.

[Leo1oser]

Our team played on Newton this year, and finished 18th after losing a match to 1986 and 971 in the final qualification match. To our dismay, MARS was the highest seed (I think) left out of eliminations. I guess that had to do with a touch penalty or what role we could play (maybe we didn't show off our trussing abilities enough?), but the news left our team and head mentor (who had just spent three hours fixing our robot's transmissions :confused: ) Being left out of eliminations is tough.

[Jscout11]

At the Clifton MAR District, interpicking in the top 8 left the 8th seed vacant right as the 8th seed got to make their first selection. The spot should have been filled by the next highest ranked team, which at that point was Team 4035 at Rank 12.

However, 4035 was accidentally skipped over, and the next highest ranked team, Team 3340 at Rank 14, was called in to fill the 8th slot. After they made their first selection, the staff realized the mistake and had both 3340 and their selection sit back down. Luckily, all teams involved still did play in eliminations

Link (http://youtu.be/12gj7N-HYT4?t=11m31s)

[nikeairmancurry]

It happened a few years ago at another MI District event. The team had already qualified for State, and wanted to use the pit time. (Plus, it gave another team a chance to get points.) The scouting captain was on the sidelines with me in 9th or 10th and wondered if he could decline if he got moved up. Eventually he declined to be the captain the 7th alliance.

2612 was the team.

[TedG]

Not if you get bumped into the top 8 by in-picking. It only prevents you from being picked, not picking.

Now I'm curious if a team in the top 8 or gets bumped into the top 8 can decline an alliance captain spot on the basis of a non-functioning robot (a reason you'd decline an invitation from outside the top 8 most of the time).

If someone picks out of the top 8, the 9th seed becomes an alliance captain. If another team is picked from the top 8, the 10th seed becomes a captain. So if you decline when you're out of the top 8 you're taking a gamble, but you're not completely done.

Edit: I got ninja'd..

Right - but if there had been interpicking there, the #9 seed would have moved up and had the right to select their own alliance (What I'm assuming 610 was going for in that instance). Still, a harsh lesson in "you never know what's going to happen". Yeowch.

Edit:: Someone else beat me to it. Oops.

Ahh yes, thanks. I wasn't thinking it through. So in that example 610 was expecting to get bumped up to 8th seed where they could pick, but it didn't happen.

[pfreivald]

Ahh yes, thanks. I wasn't thinking it through. So in that example 610 was expecting to get bumped up to 8th seed where they could pick, but it didn't happen.

Yeah, that was brutal to see; everyone there felt just awful for them!

[RunawayEngineer]

It happened a few years ago at another MI District event. The team had already qualified for State, and wanted to use the pit time. (Plus, it gave another team a chance to get points.) The scouting captain was on the sidelines with me in 9th or 10th and wondered if he could decline if he got moved up. Eventually he declined to be the captain the 7th alliance.

Was the robot in need of major repair? Otherwise, it's seems like an un-GP move to go to a competition with no intention of going through Eliminations. The presence of the team in Qualifications helped determine the spots of many of the other teams in the rankings - bowing out just to get some pit time is sketchy. It seems like a cheap way to get an advantage for the next competition.

[JohnSchneider]

Was the robot in need of major repair? Otherwise, it's seems like an un-GP move to go to a competition with no intention of going through Eliminations. The presence of the team in Qualifications helped determine the spots of many of the other teams in the rankings - bowing out just to get some pit time is sketchy. It seems like a cheap way to get an advantage for the next competition.

At a district event, them bowing out before elims is huge for some lucky teams point total. They got the pit time they needed without pulling points out of the system. Totally GP.

[JamesCH95]

I would say that was a case of poor planning or lack of attention to detail, not some issue with teenage abilities.

No doubt that accounts for some of it, but if you've gone to an FRC event you have seen a scout with a list/notebook in hand struggling to pick a team. It doesn't help when the DJ fires up the Jeopardy theme and everyone starts giggling.

[Caleb Sykes]

Was the robot in need of major repair? Otherwise, it's seems like an un-GP move to go to a competition with no intention of going through Eliminations...

un-GP is not a thing.

[Siri]

Our team played on Newton this year, and finished 18th after losing a match to 1986 and 971 in the final qualification match. To our dismay, MARS was the highest seed (I think) left out of eliminations. I guess that had to do with a touch penalty or what role we could play (maybe we didn't show off our trussing abilities enough?), but the news left our team and head mentor (who had just spent three hours fixing our robot's transmissions :confused: ) Being left out of eliminations is tough.Don't get too discouraged -- worlds is a big place for 'skips' like this. We were the highest miss, 13th seed, on Newton 2012. It went up from there. MARS will be fine :)

[jijiglobe]

One of the most famous ones I remember is 610 at FLR in 2009.

They were seeded 9th, and declined an invitation from an alliance. None of the top 8 picked each other after that, leaving 610 to sit out on Saturday afternoon.

Ouch.

-Nick

Did people deliberately not interpick within the top 8 to leave them out? As far as I can tell it wouldn't be very GP but it seems possible. Just wondering... I have heard of teams picking someone they know will reject them just to stop them from forming an alliance with someone else...

[kmusa]

We've seen it both ways.

In 2012, 639 was ranked 88th, got picked by 68 and 330, and we ended up as Newton finalists. Ours was definitely a niche robot.

This year, we finished 12th on Arch, ended up 9th after the inpicking, and didn't move on. I would describe it as a typical robot with an effective drive team.

Besides the existing comments on overall difficulty of scouting, and dependency on alliance partners during quals, the conclusion afterwards was that opting to maximize alliance performance meant not making use of our team's best capabilities. Unfortunate, but the team had a great time, and we'll just try harder the next time.

[pfreivald]

Did people deliberately not interpick within the top 8 to leave them out? As far as I can tell it wouldn't be very GP but it seems possible. Just wondering... I have heard of teams picking someone they know will reject them just to stop them from forming an alliance with someone else...

I don't believe so. Based on our scouting, we didn't anticipate any of the other alliance captains picking each other even before 610 declined.

[BigJ]

Did people deliberately not interpick within the top 8 to leave them out? As far as I can tell it wouldn't be very GP but it seems possible. Just wondering... I have heard of teams picking someone they know will reject them just to stop them from forming an alliance with someone else...

I don't believe so. Based on our scouting, we didn't anticipate any of the other alliance captains picking each other even before 610 declined.

Even if it was the case, if 610 declined from 9th and the captains realized they would have a better shot at winning without 610 in the eliminations, it's just effective strategy. Nothing to do with "GP". Basically the exact same rationale as a "scorched earth" strategy.

[Mr. Lim]

Did people deliberately not interpick within the top 8 to leave them out? As far as I can tell it wouldn't be very GP but it seems possible. Just wondering... I have heard of teams picking someone they know will reject them just to stop them from forming an alliance with someone else...

No I don't think that was the case at all, although it's an intriguing question for the future.

I was a mentor on 188 during the 2009 FLR, and I remember alumnus Shankar Manoharan (now a strategy mentor for 2056) correctly predicting that 610 could not decline, or else they would be shut out from playing in the elimination rounds. This was before alliance selections even happened.

[Karthik]

One of the most famous ones I remember is 610 at FLR in 2009.

They were seeded 9th, and declined an invitation from an alliance. None of the top 8 picked each other after that, leaving 610 to sit out on Saturday afternoon.


For historical accuracy, 610 was not the #9 seed at FLR in 2009, rather they were the #12 seed. There was some miscommunication, and their representative thought they were in the #9-10 range, which made them more comfortable with their choice to decline. There was actually significant interpicking within the top 8, with the #11 seed moving up to be the #8 Alliance Captain. The picking went as follows:

#1 picked #3
#2 picked #13
#4 picked #12 (610, who declined) and then picked #24
#5 picked #7
#6 picked #15
#8 picked #9
#10 picked #19
#11 picked #14

I was the MC on the field for this scenario, and it was a very confusing 15 minutes.

[pfreivald]

Thanks for the clarification, Karthik!

[evanperryg]

Just goes to show you that teenagers put center-stage and forced to make a significant decision with only a few minutes consideration can make mistakes. Who'd a thunk it?
It's why we always made really long pick lists this season, and include teams that we don't think we'll get. It's just to make sure nobody good slips by us. Usually, this just resulted in us crossing off a lot of things and ending up with what we expected to get, but once in a while it's helpful (*cough*4085*cough*crossroads)

[DohertyBilly]

Our team played on Newton this year, and finished 18th after losing a match to 1986 and 971 in the final qualification match. To our dismay, MARS was the highest seed (I think) left out of eliminations. I guess that had to do with a touch penalty or what role we could play (maybe we didn't show off our trussing abilities enough?), but the news left our team and head mentor (who had just spent three hours fixing our robot's transmissions :confused: ) Being left out of eliminations is tough.

Sorry, that would be us. 111 was 13th going into eliminations.