I need some help with scouting

[archiver]

Posted by Adrienne at 02/25/2001 7:07 PM EST


Student on team #191, X-Cats, from Wilson and Xerox.



As many of you may know, the list of the team web sites on the us first web site is off line. I was wondering what other teams may be doing to do some pre-competition scouting. So please reply with any suggestions.
-Team 191

[archiver]

Posted by Anton Abaya at 02/25/2001 7:19 PM EST


Coach on team #419, Rambots, from UMass Boston / BC High and WHO NEEDS SPONSORS WHEN YOU HAVE DETERMINATION!.


In Reply to: I need some help with scouting
Posted by Adrienne on 02/25/2001 7:07 PM EST:



prolly because there's too many and there isnt a CENTRAL database.

my suggestion is u just look through the pictures on this site and figure out what they're doing and scout the robots that way.

happy hunting.

-anton

[archiver]

Posted by Alan Federman at 02/25/2001 8:00 PM EST


Engineer on team #255, Odyssey, from Foothill HS, San Jose and NASA.


In Reply to: tons of databases, none of them successful...
Posted by Anton Abaya on 02/25/2001 7:19 PM EST:



I KEEP TELLING YOU THERE IS A U-FILL-IT-IN data BASE.

But so far only 14 out of the 600 teams out there have
bothered to use it - so SHAME ON YOU!.

Thanks team 56 - last guys to contribute - hope you all
do well in your regionals see ya at Epcot.

[archiver]

Posted by Patrick Dingle at 02/25/2001 8:17 PM EST


Coach on team #639, Red B^2, from Ithaca High School and Cornell University.


In Reply to: Re: tons of databases, none of them successful...
Posted by Alan Federman on 02/25/2001 8:00 PM EST:



The point is... There are just too many databases for teams to fill out. Each one has its own advantages (if EVERYONE were to use them). With so many databases, and so few teams registering on each, it's not really worth it for a teams to try and get to them all.

Patrick

: I KEEP TELLING YOU THERE IS A U-FILL-IT-IN data BASE.

: But so far only 14 out of the 600 teams out there have
: bothered to use it - so SHAME ON YOU!.

: Thanks team 56 - last guys to contribute - hope you all
: do well in your regionals see ya at Epcot.

[archiver]

Posted by EddieMcD at 02/25/2001 11:11 PM EST


Student on team #121, Islanders, from Middletown High School and NUWC.


In Reply to: Re: tons of databases, none of them successful...
Posted by Patrick Dingle on 02/25/2001 8:17 PM EST:



Grr (340) made one that you download. It is great for scouting.

[archiver]

Posted by Michael Spryn at 02/26/2001 11:48 AM EST


Engineer on team #340, Grr, from Churchville-Chili High School and Nortel Networks.


In Reply to: Re: tons of databases, none of them successful...
Posted by EddieMcD on 02/25/2001 11:11 PM EST:



: Grr (340) made one that you download. It is great for scouting.

The Grr (340) database is available at:

http://www.cccsd.org/grr/db.htm

It also contains team info (including which sites they are attending), scoring system, and more...

[archiver]

Posted by Adrienne at 02/26/2001 3:34 PM EST


Student on team #191, X-Cats, from Wilson and Xerox.


In Reply to: Re: tons of databases, none of them successful...
Posted by Michael Spryn on 02/26/2001 11:48 AM EST:



I have downloaded the GRR database, but I'm trying to find somewhere to get the info to fill it with. I've gone though this web site and the gallery of photo's but otherwise I can't find anyother place that has a list of like team web sites or just info about thier robot. Any suggestions for this??

[archiver]

Posted by EddieMcD at 02/26/2001 6:40 PM EST


Student on team #121, Islanders, from Middletown High School and NUWC.


In Reply to: Looking for more info
Posted by Adrienne on 02/26/2001 3:34 PM EST:



Check the FIRST site.

[archiver]

Posted by Mike Soukup at 02/26/2001 12:11 AM EST


Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling and Motorola.


In Reply to: tons of databases, none of them successful...
Posted by Anton Abaya on 02/25/2001 7:19 PM EST:



I hate to say this, but I see a lot of people complaining about the lack of a central database, and I only saw one discussion about creating one. If everyone wants a central database, get together and create one.

Speaking from the experience of teaming up with SOAP, it takes a lot of work to join two databases. I know that SOAP was talking with GMCIA about sharing data this year, but they had already developed their own systems and couldn't reconcile them. It's too late to do it this year, but next year is a different story. I want to get a list of people who want to join forces next year to create a way to either share data between databases or join to one big DB. So either email me, or stop by the WASH w/ SOAP station at WMI, Midwest, or Nationals so we can talk. Then I'll get together with Kenny (SOAP) and Nate (GMCIA) and come up with a plan.

[archiver]

Posted by soap108 at 02/26/2001 10:12 PM EST


Engineer on team #108, SigmaC@T, from Dillard & Taravella HS and Motorola.


In Reply to: Re: tons of databases, none of them successful...
Posted by Mike Soukup on 02/26/2001 12:11 AM EST:




As Mike correctly alluded to, combining of DB's is in our technology roadmap (Motorola term).

If indeed students are the primary complainers about lack of cross-team development in the db arena then I forgive you. You have little/no clue as to the effort required by such a task. Please be more considerate about what you say...even in an open discussion board.

KA


: I hate to say this, but I see a lot of people complaining about the lack of a central database, and I only saw one discussion about creating one. If everyone wants a central database, get together and create one.

: Speaking from the experience of teaming up with SOAP, it takes a lot of work to join two databases. I know that SOAP was talking with GMCIA about sharing data this year, but they had already developed their own systems and couldn't reconcile them. It's too late to do it this year, but next year is a different story. I want to get a list of people who want to join forces next year to create a way to either share data between databases or join to one big DB. So either email me, or stop by the WASH w/ SOAP station at WMI, Midwest, or Nationals so we can talk. Then I'll get together with Kenny (SOAP) and Nate (GMCIA) and come up with a plan.

[archiver]

Posted by Mike Soukup at 02/26/2001 10:45 PM EST


Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling and Motorola.


In Reply to: Re: tons of databases, none of them successful...
Posted by soap108 on 02/26/2001 10:12 PM EST:



At our team meeting earlier today, I was talking to a bunch of people who are in the dark about what my little sub-team is doing. So I tried to explain how we're sharing data with SOAP and how difficult it is. I realized that the best way to describe the difficulty is that it's a managerial problem, not a technical one.

Kenny & I could get our teams to share all the data in our DB's within a couple of days. The problem is the two teams agreeing on what data to store and what data to share. Each team has different requirements for the data, depending on what their strategy team wants to do with it. Now try adding 5 more teams to the mix. That's where the difficulty comes in.

For next year, we could all agree on the technical issues before the competition. Then once we learn what the competition is, we could all debate what data is useful.

Mike

[archiver]

Posted by soap108 at 02/27/2001 12:23 AM EST


Engineer on team #108, SigmaC@T, from Dillard & Taravella HS and Motorola.


In Reply to: Re: tons of databases, none of them successful...
Posted by Mike Soukup on 02/26/2001 10:45 PM EST:



Great point.

And much praise goes to Team 45 for fully supporting WASH/SOAP despite not providing Any input as to how or what the programs will do. They haven't even asked. That is some level of trust they have for us!

Also thanks go out to teams like 74, 221?, 267, and several others for buying-in to supporting WASH/SOAP. Thank you!!!!

;-)
KA


: At our team meeting earlier today, I was talking to a bunch of people who are in the dark about what my little sub-team is doing. So I tried to explain how we're sharing data with SOAP and how difficult it is. I realized that the best way to describe the difficulty is that it's a managerial problem, not a technical one.

: Kenny & I could get our teams to share all the data in our DB's within a couple of days. The problem is the two teams agreeing on what data to store and what data to share. Each team has different requirements for the data, depending on what their strategy team wants to do with it. Now try adding 5 more teams to the mix. That's where the difficulty comes in.

: For next year, we could all agree on the technical issues before the competition. Then once we learn what the competition is, we could all debate what data is useful.

: Mike

[archiver]

Posted by Andy Baker at 02/27/2001 11:50 AM EST


Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: Re: ......databases.......successful...
Posted by soap108 on 02/27/2001 12:23 AM EST:



: Great point.

: And much praise goes to Team 45 for fully supporting WASH/SOAP despite not providing Any input as to how or what the programs will do. They haven't even asked. That is some level of trust they have for us!

LOL!

Let's see, it's a combination of a few things:

1. You gotta have Faith. We (team 45) have great respect for both teams, 108 and 111, and faith in their judgement. You guys are both full of class and expertise. We are pretty much your servants on this one. Tell us what to do and we'll do it. We know our role... we just hope that we are doing enough. We will use whatever you give us and help out as much as we can.

2. We're not really that picky when it comes to scouting. Our students are making some data sheets on each team that we are playing with at the Regionals, but these will be pretty simple. Right now, any information that we get is gravy. Once we see a competition, there may be things that we didn't think to look for that come up... and we'll adjust... we always do.

3. Resources. We really don't have anyone concentrating on scouting, until recently. Our lead student scout is also one of our lead animators, so he's spread thin. Right now, we're playing catch-up.

4. Besides match strategy, we also focus on tactical play... that is the ability to make changes that make our team better. Not only changes to the robot, but also changes to our strategy. Think about it this way... many football games are won by the changes made during halftime. These are tactical changes to the original strategy. Right now, we don't know what tactical changes that may be made, but we gotta be ready for them.

4.a. In order to make tactical changes, we record the results and performance of every match and WRITE DOWN how we messed up of how we succeeded. This way, we can refer back to the performance sheet of a match and look at different variables that made us good or bad... was is a driver error, a coaching error, strategy error, a robot error, or just bad luck? We fill out this sheet right after the match, and review things right away... that way we don't forget. Then, once changes need to be made, we focus on the variables that cause the bad results.

Oh well, I've rambled enough.

Andy B.

[archiver]

Posted by soap108 at 02/28/2001 12:54 AM EST


Engineer on team #108, SigmaC@T, from Dillard & Taravella HS and Motorola.


In Reply to: Riding the coattails of 108 and 111
Posted by Andy Baker on 02/27/2001 11:50 AM EST:



Thought you'd like that. ;~)

And, Yes you're helping in the areas with the most need-> Persons and Visors. Being able to take shifts is a huge plus.

By the time the regionals are over, we'll have meat, potatoes, and lots of 'gravy'.

p.s. Thanks so much for not making our meetings run on. (Ask Raul what that means. ;-) Nah, he's a good guy; and his inputs upgraded the value-added of the db's. Just need to get him onboard sooner...like at the NH Kickoff...maybe even start making appointments for 2002 meetings now....:)

1 week+ to WMI! any chance of seeing hi's above 40¡Æ or 50¡Æ in grand rapids? Its a nice 70-80¡Æ down here in FL...i'm tempted to stay home and send someone else...heh

KA
¢¼¢¾♦¢À


: : Great point.

: : And much praise goes to Team 45 for fully supporting WASH/SOAP despite not providing Any input as to how or what the programs will do. They haven't even asked. That is some level of trust they have for us!

: LOL!

: Let's see, it's a combination of a few things:

: 1. You gotta have Faith. We (team 45) have great respect for both teams, 108 and 111, and faith in their judgement. You guys are both full of class and expertise. We are pretty much your servants on this one. Tell us what to do and we'll do it. We know our role... we just hope that we are doing enough. We will use whatever you give us and help out as much as we can.

: 2. We're not really that picky when it comes to scouting. Our students are making some data sheets on each team that we are playing with at the Regionals, but these will be pretty simple. Right now, any information that we get is gravy. Once we see a competition, there may be things that we didn't think to look for that come up... and we'll adjust... we always do.

: 3. Resources. We really don't have anyone concentrating on scouting, until recently. Our lead student scout is also one of our lead animators, so he's spread thin. Right now, we're playing catch-up.

: 4. Besides match strategy, we also focus on tactical play... that is the ability to make changes that make our team better. Not only changes to the robot, but also changes to our strategy. Think about it this way... many football games are won by the changes made during halftime. These are tactical changes to the original strategy. Right now, we don't know what tactical changes that may be made, but we gotta be ready for them.

: 4.a. In order to make tactical changes, we record the results and performance of every match and WRITE DOWN how we messed up of how we succeeded. This way, we can refer back to the performance sheet of a match and look at different variables that made us good or bad... was is a driver error, a coaching error, strategy error, a robot error, or just bad luck? We fill out this sheet right after the match, and review things right away... that way we don't forget. Then, once changes need to be made, we focus on the variables that cause the bad results.

: Oh well, I've rambled enough.

: Andy B.

[archiver]

Posted by Ken Patton at 03/01/2001 6:11 PM EST


Engineer on team #65, The Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.


In Reply to: Re: tons of databases, none of them successful...
Posted by Mike Soukup on 02/26/2001 12:11 AM EST:



There might still be the possibility for GMCIA and SOAP/WASH to collaborate. As long as there are not too many differences in the scouting sheets, I think GMCIA might be able to convert the SOAP/WASH data to a form that can be included in the GMCIA database. As I understand it many of the important scouted criteria are the same, and one of the differences is the added ratings SOAP/WASH gives to each criteria (something GMCIA does not do for ease/simplicity).

Would you guys be open to the idea of trying to share data?

Ken

btw, when I hear SOAP/WASH, I think of Darrel Waltrip!

[archiver]

Posted by Mike Soukup at 03/01/2001 11:30 PM EST


Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling and Motorola.


In Reply to: don't give up yet
Posted by Ken Patton on 03/01/2001 6:11 PM EST:



Have you talked to Kenny about this? SOAP is the 'central' database in the WASH w/ SOAP system, so you'd be directly exchanging data with SOAP, not WASH (one of these days I'll explain the system better). But yes, we are interested in sharing data with you guys. Email Kenny & myself and we'll talk more about it.

Mike

: btw, when I hear SOAP/WASH, I think of Darrel Waltrip!

Who's Darrel Waltrip?

[archiver]

Posted by Raul at 03/02/2001 8:02 AM EST


Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling HS and Motorola.


In Reply to: Re: don't give up yet
Posted by Mike Soukup on 03/01/2001 11:30 PM EST:




: Who's Darrel Waltrip?

Mike,

You are starting to sound like Dean Kamen.

Raul

[archiver]

Posted by Robby at 02/26/2001 6:14 PM EST


Other on team #108, The SigmaC@Ts, from AIFL and Motorola.


In Reply to: tons of databases, none of them successful...
Posted by Anton Abaya on 02/25/2001 7:19 PM EST:



: prolly because there's too many and there isnt a CENTRAL database.

OH SHNAP!!! DEEEEEEEEAMN! Anton layeth the smacketh downeth! Heh, me and my big mouth. Bah well, coulndt resist. Team 108 is gonna murder me now...

-Robby O
oshortwan@hotmail.com
Soon to be Team 111's Animation Mentor
Permanently Though FIRSTanimators Moderator

[archiver]

Posted by soap108 at 02/26/2001 10:51 PM EST


Engineer on team #108, SigmaC@T, from Dillard & Taravella HS and Motorola.


In Reply to: Re: tons of databases, none of them successful...
Posted by Robby on 02/26/2001 6:14 PM EST:



Did any of you db-nay-sayers' robots get built correctly the first day? Or did it take time? How much time? Was your robot the collaboration of multiple teams or just your own?

I think [your] definition of "success" is much different from ours. It may even be a bit selfish.

There's a tremendous amount of effort put into these db's that [you] are not aware of. Such is the level of detail and forward thinking that (at least) the WASH and SOAP teams have put into their system.

What is a goal of FIRST? To teach/mentor HS students in Science and Technology. WASH/SOAP is no different. We happened to build a "software robot" and not a mechanical one. Our 'Kit of parts' are our students and their minds.

I personally have a much greater appreciation for teamwork, now having gone through the headaches of LEADING a cross-site (cross-areacode/cross-country/cross-FIRST-team/younameit) development. And I haven't even graduated college yet! (two more months)
SOAP is run by Alumni and students, not professional engineers (yet). WASH (MikeS) is headed by a recent Motorola intern who graduated college. And I believe Nate (GMCIA) is also still in college?

And here's the bottom line- our SOAP StUDentS have LEARNED much more about software development, information technology, and true teamwork than any of our previous year's robot-teams combined. And to think they're just 9th/10th graders and some of them aren't even a part of our official high school partners! The average age is