LAS VEGAS REGIONAL... terminated?

[JB987]

Just a notice to all of you out there. FIRST is set to make a decision about pulling the plug on the LVR. A recommendation to terminate our regional from FRC Regional Operations staff is going to be made to the Board on Wednesday, due to difficulty retaining teams and some sponsorship shortfalls the last few years. This has resulted in FIRST having to lend some financial support to help us balance our budget. We are fighting hard to convince the board that with our economic recovery locally we should be able to balance the books on our own now but right now things look bleak without new and additional sponsorship support assured.

The result of this regional's termination will be devastating to our local FRC programs and greatly impact FTC growth efforts. I expect no more than 3-4 local teams will have the financial resources to attend out of state regionals and the rest of the teams will not return.:( To all of you outside teams that joined us over the years, thank you for your support...and to all of my fellow local teams that won't survive FIRST pulling the rug out from under us...I am sorry if FIRST decides we just aren't worth supporting any more.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Wow, that's really sad news to hear. We always love going out to compete in LV when it doesn't align with SVR. Best wishes on being able to keep it.

[Mk.32]

Hm I wonder if this has anything to do with the fact FIRST is pushing for districts in CA....

[Andrew Lawrence]

Hm I wonder if this has anything to do with the fact FIRST is pushing for districts in CA....

I don't think it's related, since part of CA is pushing to not have districts (I think they can't come here soon enough).

[SenorZ]

This is unfortunate. Team 4276 has enjoyed attending the LVR for the last two years. We were planning on attending again in 2015!

The CA districts are probably a couple of years away, and I understand there is a distance factor for going to LV for most teams (overwhelmingly out-of-state team attended), but that would mean Nevada has NO regional, and one of the best teams (tip o' the hat to 987).

Very unfortunate.

[AdamHeard]

Losing this event would also really hurt CA.

Is there anything teams can do to help Joe?

[themccannman]

I don't think it's related, since part of CA is pushing to not have districts (I think they can't come here soon enough).

Who's pushing to not have districts? So far I've only heard supportive comments about the new district system. Either way we'll be on districts by 2016 at the latest.

[MrTechCenter]

Actually, CA is planning to go district in 2016. For 2015, there will be seven regionals in the state, including a new one in Santa Barbara. I think the new regional might have been added to make room for some Las Vegas teams to come over, but I can't really say. It's unfortunate to have to lose your home regional, but I'm sure that some California teams would be more than happy to help accommodate some Nevada teams for the 2015 regional season.

[waialua359]

Joe,
after speaking a lot with Stephen at CMP, I didnt really think that FIRST would really pull the plug.:ahh:
I'm sure everyone was hopeful that it would continue, creative avenues would be explored, and the LVR would be sure to continue.

The fact that this is happening at an event where many veteran and well known teams compete year after year, sends a strong message to everyone about sustainability issues of FRC/FTC programs due to the enormous costs to field teams and host an event.
Hawaii has to cough up a whole lot more just to put on our event. If and when our sponsorship runs out, you can pretty much shut the door on Hawaii ever having the same no. of FRC/FTC teams.
For us personally, I can see us shutting our program down once we are unable to compete in as many events as district teams are getting at a fraction of the cost.
Teams in specific regions are getting more play opportunities per $. If we are unable to play at the same level as these heavy FRC regions, I would rather fold.
This is a serious issue that will only get worse.
I am all for districts! The cost disparity between district and non-district reg fees need to be at a level playing field. This will only help to sustain teams, promote growth, and allow regional planning committees to focus more of their efforts in raising the necessary funds to keep regionals going. Its not like LVR was a regional that nobody wanted to attend.

Today is a sad day.
Hope it all works out.

[Lil' Lavery]

Teams in specific regions are getting more play opportunities per $. If we are unable to play at the same level as these heavy FRC regions, I would rather fold.

This is an incredibly troubling statement to read. Would you elaborate on why you feel it would be necessary to shutter a Hall of Fame program that impacted so many students over not getting as good a value as other teams?

[waialua359]

This is an incredibly troubling statement to read. Would you elaborate on why you feel it would be necessary to shutter a Hall of Fame program that impacted so many students over not getting as good a value as other teams?

Fair question.
Our program has grown leaps and bounds ever since we went to a 7-12 program vs. just a high school one.
We impact up to 250 kids in a 620+ enrollment small little rural school (7-12 high and intermediate).
Why do FIRST if we are only able to do 1 event?
FIRST isnt the only STEM program around.
I want the best bang for our buck which impacts the most kids in helping them be as successful as the program can help with.

Our STEM Learning Center produced a student who earned a full ride 4 year scholarship to a film school in NYC last year, a Miss Hawaii USA pageant winner in 2012, 3 Bill Gates Scholarship winners since 2007, and 7 valedictorians in a row, most of which didnt build robots.

If you look at our FRC History, we started doing multiple events in 2007 going as far as the East Coast on several occasions. There is a direct correlation between our most recent successes and participating in many more Robotics events, including seeing folks like you and Dave at the 2008 VCU regional.

Every year, we have several students who have never been on a plane, go on their first ever trip to an FRC event. Priceless..

[Mr. B.]

Joe,

The news you shared today is very disappointing to hear. While I wish you all the best, these decisions that are being made have a wide ripple out effect for FRC as a whole as outlined in Glenn's reply. I personally hope that things can be worked out to maintain the regionals but more importantly for your local teams, state and region. If there is anything we can do to help at this point, please let me know.

Dave

[apples000]

That's unfortunate.

I really love the extra playing time given to teams in districts, but don't you guys think it's important to help out the teams that are located where there aren't a million district events nearby? In my opinion, FIRST should be about providing awesome and powerful inspiration to every team that's in FIRST rather than exploiting more crowded district regions to get tons and tons of new teams started. FRC doesn't really feel like the "varsity" program it used to sell itself as in moments like these. Slowly, we're removing different pieces of the FIRST experience like team travel (once we have districts, how often will 254 be leaving california?), large exciting venues, and instead focusing on expansion. These growing pains really are inevitable, especially for a unique organization like FIRST, but shouldn't we worry about getting our current teams and events all set before we go expanding and district crazy? Nobody will want to join a program that can't support its own teams.

Sorry for the rant, sometimes I just feel like the focus is too much on expansion.

[JB987]

Adam,
The best thing other teams can do to help us keep our regional is to send us some of your sponsors $$:D
Hey, if 2500 teams each sent $20 to Nevada FIRST we would be all set...kidding...sorta.

Seriously, our committee is working hard to get this possibly bad news out to our community and see if we can't shake some more financial support out of them. We haven't given up the fight yet...FIRST has been patient but reached a point where the loss of our regional and it's helpful role in offering additional capacity to CA and AZ teams (you would be amazed at the total number of teams left on the wait lists at so many of the area regionals including 10 left on ours). This is apparently no longer a mitigating concern to them since we have been told that there will be new regionals next year in CA (Ventura) and AZ (Phoenix).

[Steven Donow]

That's unfortunate.

I really love the extra playing time given to teams in districts, but don't you guys think it's important to help out the teams that are located where there aren't a million district events nearby? In my opinion, FIRST should be about providing awesome and powerful inspiration to every team that's in FIRST rather than exploiting more crowded district regions to get tons and tons of new teams started. FRC doesn't really feel like the "varsity" program it used to sell itself as in moments like these. Slowly, we're removing different pieces of the FIRST experience like team travel (once we have districts, how often will 254 be leaving california?), large exciting venues, and instead focusing on expansion. These growing pains really are inevitable, especially for a unique organization like FIRST, but shouldn't we worry about getting our current teams and events all set before we go expanding and district crazy? Nobody will want to join a program that can't support its own teams.

Sorry for the rant, sometimes I just feel like the focus is too much on expansion.
emph. mine


The thing is though, those are just a few pieces of the overall FIRST experience and, arguably, ones that many teams do not see as-is in the regional system. I'm sure someone can get actual numbers and facts on this, but most teams do not 'travel' extensively (extensively being defined as 254 going to Waterloo; not a NYC team traveling to Philadelphia). Also, some districts are in venues just as large as some regionals, even sometimes bigger (I for one hate 'convention center bleacher'-style events).

In the end, 'going district crazy' is not happening in areas it doesn't need to happen, and the 'pieces of FIRST' that it's influencing are things that, in many people's eyes, are bigger issues than the ones you stated, ie. more play for less pay/cheaper events overall.

[Mark Sheridan]

Adam,
The best thing other teams can do to help us keep our regional is to send us some of your sponsors $$:D
Hey, if 2500 teams each sent $20 to Nevada FIRST we would be all set...kidding...sorta.

Seriously, our committee is working hard to get this possibly bad news out to our community and see if we can't shake some more financial support out of them. We haven't given up the fight yet...FIRST has been patient but reached a point where the loss of our regional and it's helpful role in offering additional capacity to CA and AZ teams (you would be amazed at the total number of teams left on the wait lists at so many of the area regionals including 10 left on ours). This is apparently no longer a mitigating concern to them since we have been told that there will be new regionals next year in CA (Ventura) and AZ (Phoenix).

This is sad news. LVR is my favorite regional. I personally would pay up to a extra $1000 to attend LVR. I think its that good. As for California teams, there was such a shortage to regional spots, there is no way for Ventura to make up for the california's need for an extra regional and the loss of LVR. Even if Ventura holds 60 teams, California looses 20 ish spots from LVR leaving only 40 new spots for California next year. To me that does not seem like a lot of space for FRC growth in california. I can think of 15 teams alone in So Cal that would like to attend a extra regional next year.

[JB987]

This is sad news. LVR is my favorite regional. I personally would pay up to a extra $1000 to attend LVR. I think its that good. As for California teams, there was such a shortage to regional spots, there is no way for Ventura to make up for the california's need for an extra regional and the loss of LVR. Even if Ventura holds 60 teams, California looses 20 ish spots from LVR leaving only 40 new spots for California next year. To me that does not seem like a lot of space for FRC growth in california. I can think of 15 teams alone in So Cal that would like to attend a extra regional next year.

Thanks for the supportive response, Mark. We agree we have something special here and that's why the fight to survive is on. Maybe if teams like yours, and Adam's and many others directly affected were to convey directly to Frank such well made arguments like yours here we might have a fighting chance.:D :D

[PayneTrain]

What really makes me uncomfortable is how this could be a slippery slope of just closing up shop for areas not living up to the satisfaction of HQ and leaving kids out in the cold. On top of that, the shuttering of a regional, especially one like Vegas, can negatively affect FRC across an entire multi-state region by stunting growth of its neighbors. I imagine what would happen if Regional Ops were to close a regional on the already cramped ast Coast because of sponsorship woes and the idea of threatening the existence of dozens of teams and potential of many more is not something that should be done without exhausting every available option. I've never been to Nevada but surely there are some options?

[DCA Fan]

Best of luck Joe. I'm very surprised that there isn't more sponsorship interest given the proximity of the event to all the hospitality companies, surely MGM or Caesar's could cough up what probably amounts to 10 minutes worth of earnings without much harm on the bottom line.

As for those questions about the CA districts, there's currently a lot of worry in the number of key volunteers that need to be trained in a short amount of time. The number of events that will need to go on every weekend is likely to burn out many volunteers, not to mention the amount of time off of work for everyone involved. In addition, while the Ventura regional will provide some relief to the already maxed out Los Angeles regional, it isn't enough for the quantity of teams in California that attempt multiple regionals, hence why Vegas tends to get a fairly large CA contingent.

[Andrew Schreiber]

What really makes me uncomfortable is how this could be a slippery slope of just closing up shop for areas not living up to the satisfaction of HQ and leaving kids out in the cold.

So, what you're saying is that some regionals are too big to fail?

It's not "not living up to the satisfaction" it's "Not affordable". Huge distinction. One implies an arbitrary judgement, the other is a simple mathematical fact.

Not saying that LVR should end. Merely stating that pouring money into a project that shows no signs of becoming self sustaining is bad for building a sustainable business.*




* yes, FIRST needs to be a business. If Money Out > Money In we're all going to be in trouble soon.

[JB987]

So, what you're saying is that some regionals are too big to fail?

It's not "not living up to the satisfaction" it's "Not affordable". Huge distinction. One implies an arbitrary judgement, the other is a simple mathematical fact.

Not saying that LVR should end. Merely stating that pouring money into a project that shows no signs of becoming self sustaining is bad for building a sustainable business.*




* yes, FIRST needs to be a business. If Money Out > Money In we're all going to be in trouble soon.

Your are right Andrew...the numbers from our regional suggest we are a good business risk. 43 teams at LVR were second or third event teams, contributing $172k to FIRST via registration, 8 teams were rookies contributing $48k before costs of KOP's deducted. If rookie KOP's cost FIRST even $3k then rookie contributed net $24k directly to FIRST plus the rest of the 43 teams $172k contributiions sent to FIRST totals +/- $196k. They kicked back around $30k I think. Leaves $166k in their pockets to service all of FIRST. Not a bad profit margin...

Regarding the largess of casinos and hotels...of course we approach them constantly but have never been able to get them to contribute a dime because every one of them channel their charity dollars into causes that help the down trodden and less fortunate residents of our area (more social good- will bang for the buck than helping to finance an event that serves well fed and educated students).

[PayneTrain]

So, what you're saying is that some regionals are too big to fail?

It's not "not living up to the satisfaction" it's "Not affordable". Huge distinction. One implies an arbitrary judgement, the other is a simple mathematical fact.

Not saying that LVR should end. Merely stating that pouring money into a project that shows no signs of becoming self sustaining is bad for building a sustainable business.*




* yes, FIRST needs to be a business. If Money Out > Money In we're all going to be in trouble soon.

Too big to fail implies that this single regional would have a direct, immeadiate negative impact on FRC. If the LV RPC can close the gap in sponsorship dollars over the next two years and keep filling slots like it has been, it's no more or less viable than any other regional. I believe LVR seats above the average regional size, and on top of that the event likely counts for more "non-KOP" registrations (not rookie/1st event) than KOP registrations, which financially makes it more viable for HQ since they pocket all of that juicy registration coin. While I personally don't have the books for LVR in front of me, I gather that the event does or at least easily attain a favorable financial standing as a regional event.

It seems the real crux is keeping teams in the program. On one hand, if you can't keep teams sustainable outside of a precious few, maybe you need to look at a different strategy. On the other hand, we talk a lot about how difficult it is to bring back a team from a school that wasn't ready for an FRC team. Is LVR really at a point where you would rather have an exponentially more negative impact of removing an entire regional and its operations than try to make it work?

[apples000]

Too big to fail implies that this single regional would have a direct, immeadiate negative impact on FRC. If the LV RPC can close the gap in sponsorship dollars over the next two years and keep filling slots like it has been, it's no more or less viable than any other regional. I believe LVR seats above the average regional size, and on top of that the event likely counts for more "non-KOP" registrations (not rookie/1st event) than KOP registrations, which financially makes it more viable for HQ since they pocket all of that juicy registration coin. While I personally don't have the books for LVR in front of me, I gather that the event does or at least easily attain a favorable financial standing as a regional event.

It seems the real crux is keeping teams in the program. On one hand, if you can't keep teams sustainable outside of a precious few, maybe you need to look at a different strategy. On the other hand, we talk a lot about how difficult it is to bring back a team from a school that wasn't ready for an FRC team. Is LVR really at a point where you would rather have an exponentially more negative impact of removing an entire regional and its operations than try to make it work?

I agree with everything you've written. Keeping teams in is really important, and not all schools are ready for a team. Sure, LVR might not be profitable this year, but if FIRST truly believes that these regionals in 'less populated' areas cannot be sustainable, then we have a much bigger problem. I believe FIRST knows that eventually LVR will be a good thing, but they think using resources elsewhere will get more growth.

[PayneTrain]

I agree with everything you've written. Keeping teams in is really important, and not all schools are ready for a team. Sure, LVR might not be profitable this year, but if FIRST truly believes that these regionals in 'less populated' areas cannot be sustainable, then we have a much bigger problem. I believe FIRST knows that eventually LVR will be a good thing, but they think using resources elsewhere will get more growth.

Well it seems like LVR has had sponsorship issues for consecutive years for this to even be discussed. But removing the existence of an entire regional and its support staff (RD, Senior Mentor) is really, really drastic.

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

[/B]

Your are right Andrew...the numbers from our regional suggest we are a good business risk. 43 teams at LVR were second or third event teams, contributing $172k to FIRST via registration, 8 teams were rookies contributing $48k before costs of KOP's deducted. If rookie KOP's cost FIRST even $3k then rookie contributed net $24k directly to FIRST plus the rest of the 43 teams $172k contributiions sent to FIRST totals +/- $196k. They kicked back around $30k I think. Leaves $166k in their pockets to service all of FIRST. Not a bad profit margin...

Regarding the largess of casinos and hotels...of course we approach them constantly but have never been able to get them to contribute a dime because every one of them channel their charity dollars into causes that help the down trodden and less fortunate residents of our area (more social good- will bang for the buck than helping to finance an event that serves well fed and educated students).

Wait so FIRST is making a 166k profit off of LVR and they might shut it down? I'm not a buisness expert or anything but this doesn't seem like a good idea from any standpoint.

[cadandcookies]

Wait so FIRST is making a 166k profit off of LVR and they might shut it down? I'm not a buisness expert or anything but this doesn't seem like a good idea from any standpoint.

Keep in mind that very few, if any people in this thread know how HQ sees the situation. Speculation is just that: speculation.

My speculation would be that HQ sees terminating the regional as a worst-case scenario-- regardless of the financials. I'm sure every feasible effort will be made on the part of HQ and NVFIRST to continue the regional-- and seeing the enthusiasm some posting in this thread have for LVR gives me heart that it will continue.

Personally, LVR is on the list of regionals I hope to go to someday.

[rsisk]

... But removing the existence of an entire regional and its support staff (RD, Senior Mentor) is really, really drastic.

Not sure anyone said the RD or Senior Mentor were being removed.

As part of a regional planning committee (or two) I can tell you it is really, really, really tough to come up with the dollars needed to keep a regional running. For example, most members of the IERPC are volunteers and have normal jobs in addition to trying to raise funds and I imagine its the same for LVRPC. Without LVR, California teams are going to have a hard time finding places for a second play, will definitely be spilling over to AZ, CO, UTAH.

Joe, I sure hope LVR can get the funds it needs and stay in business. We attended LVR for the first time this year and had a fantastic time. It is a great venue and very well run (drive thru load in, score! ample pit and spectator space, score! great crew running the event, score!)

[PayneTrain]

Not sure anyone said the RD or Senior Mentor were being removed.


Pardon me if I'm off-base here but I am under the impression that without a regional to run, there is no staff needed to run anything. I am not aware of a place where there are RDs and SM but no events tied to them.

[seg9585]

And here I was thinking how great Vegas would be to hold future FRC Championship events. Vegas has so much hotel capacity, such large convention centers and arenas, and is easily accessible by air from everywhere.

Vegas was our go-to as a second regional because all other SoCal regionals filled up immediately. The Santa Barbara Regional should ease that a little next year, but travel to SB is logistically equivalent at least from where my team is located in Orange County (still need a hotel, etc).
Another reason VEgas was special was it featured so many high-caliber teams. The winners or finalists of the LA, San Diego, Inland Empire, Arizona, and Utah Regionals were all present in Vegas this year!

[mwmac]

Joe, I am really saddened to hear that the situation you predicted at LVR is perhaps becoming a reality. It seems the Tators may have had their first and last visit to Vegas unless First sees the importance of maintaining a regional that provides playing opportunities for teams throughout the less densely populated areas of the intermountain west, (not to mention teams from Hawaii and beyond).

With the formation of the PNW district, the coming formation of the California district/s and the potential termination of the Las Vegas regional, the Tators choices for a second event will require driving to Denver (830 miles one way) Phoenix (until it goes districts, 907 miles one way) and Calgary (956 miles one way). First's motivation for implementing districts may be as a means of reducing costs per play for teams within district model areas but for teams in areas that do not have the population density to support a district model, our costs of competition in a second event are being raised substantially.

[JB987]

Pardon me if I'm off-base here but I am under the impression that without a regional to run, there is no staff needed to run anything. I am not aware of a place where there are RDs and SM but no events tied to them.

Will, we still have a strong presence of FLL and enough FTC teams to warrant a RD and SM. Looking at having 4-5 qualifiers for FLL and State Championship as well as an FTC event again...what happens when participants in these programs start reaching a dead end is another story.

[rsisk]

Pardon me if I'm off-base here but I am under the impression that without a regional to run, there is no staff needed to run anything. I am not aware of a place where there are RDs and SM but no events tied to them.

Senior mentors support all programs and Justin covers all of Nevada, so he still has plenty to do. RDs run regionals and support FRC teams (little less clear on the RD role having never been one). Like Joe says in a later post, there will be plenty to keep them busy, especially if they want to help teams survive

[N7UJJ]

One of the hardest challenges facing the FIRST community is recruiting and sustaining teams on the Native American reservations. The Flagstaff team, 2486, the Coconuts, have made supporting reservation teams a priority. Las Vegas is situated close to the Navajo, Hopi, and many of the Ute nations. Losing LVR will hamper FIRST's goal to reach out to those who can benefit the most.

[Mastonevich]

The example States approximately 166k back to HQ. Does anyone know of documentation that describes what that really goes towards, and maybe a breakout?

[sastoller]

Joe,
We would hate to see the Vegas regional go away. Since PNW went to districts Vegas is the second closest regional to us (only 640 miles one-way). We really enjoyed the opportunity to meet and challenge many good FRC teams at Vegas this year, and I sincerely hope that we have the opportunity to play at Vegas for many years to come.

[Moon2020]

[/B]
Regarding the largess of casinos and hotels...of course we approach them constantly but have never been able to get them to contribute a dime because every one of them channel their charity dollars into causes that help the down trodden and less fortunate residents of our area (more social good- will bang for the buck than helping to finance an event that serves well fed and educated students).

All of the local FIRST students cannot be from well-fed, perfect homes with household incomes above the poverty line. A first-hand story or two on how FIRST has personally changed their outcome in life would be great if the teams can get a meeting with the right person/people.

I'm wondering what the sales pitch is that is turning them off from listening/seeing how FIRST positively impacts the disadvantaged youth in the community and lifts them out of the endless cycle. How and what are the teams/planning committee doing when you approach the hotels/casinos?

Have the LVR Teams/planning committee sent disadvantaged current students and FIRST alumni from various teams set up meetings to give the sales pitch(s) to the casino/hotel donation decision makers on how FIRST has helped them break the cycle of homelessness/poverty/abuse/etc. or are there just flyers that are handed out to the business office soliciting for money? Are there FIRST Teams from the most economically disadvantaged areas represented in statistics/data on a one-sheet double-sided color flyer that the business office can keep and is it making it to the right person? How many alumni/parents are employed by the casinos/hotels? Is that included on the flyer? Is it stated that LV is about to lose this great Regional and its teams due to lack of sponsors? Loss of the event also impacts hotel room sales and spending in the local area.

BTW, We have lost around 72 teams since 2003 and currently have 68. Some are due to lack of funding, others are due to lack of mentors. Sustainability vs. growth.

[JB987]

All of the local FIRST students cannot be from well-fed, perfect homes with household incomes above the poverty line. A first-hand story or two on how FIRST has personally changed their outcome in life would be great if the teams can get a meeting with the right person/people.

I'm wondering what the sales pitch is that is turning them off from listening/seeing how FIRST positively impacts the disadvantaged youth in the community and lifts them out of the endless cycle. How and what are the teams/planning committee doing when you approach the hotels/casinos?

Have the LVR Teams/planning committee sent disadvantaged current students and FIRST alumni from various teams set up meetings to give the sales pitch(s) to the casino/hotel donation decision makers on how FIRST has helped them break the cycle of homelessness/poverty/abuse/etc. or are there just flyers that are handed out to the business office soliciting for money? Are there FIRST Teams from the most economically disadvantaged areas represented in statistics/data on a one-sheet double-sided color flyer that the business office can keep and is it making it to the right person? How many alumni/parents are employed by the casinos/hotels? Is that included on the flyer? Is it stated that LV is about to lose this great Regional and its teams due to lack of sponsors? Loss of the event also impacts hotel room sales and spending in the local area.

BTW, We have lost around 72 teams since 2003 and currently have 68. Some are due to lack of funding, others are due to lack of mentors. Sustainability vs. growth.

Believe me, we have had some success reaching the "right" people in person, and have had opportunity to expose them to the "right kids" with the "right stories" and left them with professionally produced fliers over the years and when given the courtesy of an explanation for their decision we have been told that the given hotel/casino would be staying with the charity they have been helping for years prior to our inception and that the cause they were staying with served more people who had greater needs than those associated with our regional.

We have even had some success getting key personnel to visit the event and still been unsuccessful. Since the move to terminate our regional is recent we haven't included a statement we are about to lose the regional (we will add that now of course). Regarding economic benefits for hotels related to filling of hotel rooms by event visitors, numerous times we have been told by charity decision makers that their hotels prefer a demographic that includes mostly gamblers, not underage kids (and they can afford to overlook room loss given we have the highest average hotel room occupancy in the US). This doesn't mean we don't keep trying however.

[James3245]

This development, should it come to pass, will have a major negative effect on Intermountain West programs. Idaho weighed in and Utah is another example. FIRST and NASA invested a lot of resources to help develop Utah teams beginning in 2010. The teams formed, many are thriving. What FIRST and NASA envisioned has come to pass. Of course, teams soon learned that to keep developing requires the inspiration that comes from competing. The more the better. But it isn’t easy to find places to play the game out here. Within an 8 hour drive there are only three events: Utah, Colorado, and Las Vegas regionals. The closest off-season event requires an even longer drive to California. (yes, we are working on setting one up in our region) The problem has become more acute as districts form up. Many teams from Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, Arizona, Colorado attend LVR because it is the closest option for a second regional. (granted, travel is not as bad as what Hawaii and many international teams face)

By attending LVR the last three years we forged important ties with great teams from whom we’ve learned an immense amount. We bring home this knowledge and have done our best to build our own region. That is how FRC programs develop - they learn from more developed teams. But to test your team’s skills you need the opportunity to compete. In less densely populated areas, it can be surprisingly hard, and expensive (money and travel time), to compete more than once a year. To lose chances to play with and against top tier teams greatly compromises the goals of FIRST.

LVR is a superb event, as many teams can attest. Every year has seen an increasingly tough, and inspiring, line-up. Last year registration filled in less than 24 hours when it opened for second regionals. LVR has been an exemplary regional, extremely well run by volunteers (thank you 987), and top-notch field personnel. It meets every core mission goal of FIRST.

FIRST expects a lot of event organizers, whether district or regional; it is too much to ask every team to pay a high entry fee per event and then require the event organizers to run the event without access to that income. The LVR situation is exhibit A of the flaw of this model: a great regional that fulfills every mission goal of FIRST now apparently in peril, and not for a lack of paying teams.

The good news is that with to its model of high event fees combined with reliance on volunteers and sponsors, FIRST has built up an impressively large reserve from which it can draw.

LVR is vital to teams in the West - FIRST needs to support it, even if it requires investing a few coins from the war chest.

[Pat Fairbank]

I'm not an accountant, but a quick look at FIRST's financials (http://www3.usfirst.org/annual-report/#46-47/z) seem to indicate that the organization is operating at a $2M yearly surplus and is sitting on top of nearly $24M in cash and short-term investments.

Given that for the parent organization funding is apparently not in short supply, is it unreasonable of me to ask why regionals experiencing financial hardship can't retain a larger portion of their own registration fees?

[Mark Sheridan]

Okay, Orange County, CA is rounding up some letters, or more accurately OCRA (orange county robotic alliance) is rounding up letters. So far 3309 and 3476 have committed.

Is there any other teams working on this?

[AdamHeard]

I think someone more eloquent than me should use this as a chance to ask a good Ask Frank Friday question.

FIRST is pushing transparency, I'd love to know more about where the money goes, how it's used, etc...

It'd be interesting to know their logic behind this decision when from our point of view the regional is very profitable for FIRST.

It's kind of crazy that I've been doing this forever and when a parent asks me where all the registration fees go if they don't go to the events, I can't really give them a great answer other than, "FIRST is big.... I'm sure they have a lot of expenses...?"

[Ryan Dognaux]

If LVR needs a year to recoup funds, couldn't they run a more district-sized event and make back their debts? I feel like teams would accept this to keep the competition and FIRST would do it to break even. Lose the flashy A/V & venue this next year and bring it back after that.

[JB987]

If LVR needs a year to recoup funds, couldn't they run a more district-sized event and make back their debts? I feel like teams would accept this to keep the competition and FIRST would do it to break even. Lose the flashy A/V & venue this next year and bring it back after that.

We have no highschool venue large enough to handle the minimum 40 ish teams we were told we need to serve and cost of bringing in generator we would need brings overall cost to same as current venue we get for dirt cheap thanks to LV Convention Visitors Authority discount.

[PayneTrain]

I'm not an accountant, but a quick look at FIRST's financials (http://www3.usfirst.org/annual-report/#46-47/z) seem to indicate that the organization is operating at a $2M yearly surplus and is sitting on top of nearly $24M in cash and short-term investments.

Given that for the parent organization funding is apparently not in short supply, is it unreasonable of me to ask why regionals experiencing financial hardship can't retain a larger portion of their own registration fees?

It is easy to openly question the organization why it isn't spending money on things (for me, it's providing sweeping changes to the way potential developers can/can't interact with data through the FMS, for example), but I think even directly petitioning the director to know exactly why FIRST both needs $24M cash on hand but can't afford to float a regional in a high potential area for a little bit longer is probably one of the most worthwhile questions we can ask FIRST.
I think someone more eloquent than me should use this as a chance to ask a good Ask Frank Friday question.

FIRST is pushing transparency, I'd love to know more about where the money goes, how it's used, etc...

It'd be interesting to know their logic behind this decision when from our point of view the regional is very profitable for FIRST.

It's kind of crazy that I've been doing this forever and when a parent asks me where all the registration fees go if they don't go to the events, I can't really give them a great answer other than, "FIRST is big.... I'm sure they have a lot of expenses...?"

I think someone like you with years under your belt playing at a high enough level your team pays out more registration fees than an average team (2 regionals and regular championship appearances) is pretty well suited to ask this question. I've been under the impression that registration fees go directly to making new fields and hiring the crew that produces the event. I know we've been adding regionals lately with a higher frequency, but a majority of the fields are supposed to be re-used year to year (which helps districts even though they're paying registration fees for fields they'll personally never play on, as far as I know). I also thought that FRC itself was running at a loss for the longest time, but apparently that tide has shifted backwards...

For ideas on how to keep LVR afloat, I wonder if FRC would be appeased if they moved the venue out of the LVCC and into a team's high school, or if the teams attending the event were subjected to an additional fee (as ludicrous as it sounds).

[EricH]

For ideas on how to keep LVR afloat, I wonder if FRC would be appeased if they moved the venue out of the LVCC and into a team's high school, or if the teams attending the event were subjected to an additional fee (as ludicrous as it sounds).

See the post above ya. They don't have one that's big enough.

Something that most folks east of the Rockies don't necessarily understand is that many of the high schools on the west coast (Vegas included) don't exactly have the largest gyms or other indoor athletic facilities. If I were told "come up with a list of high schools in your area (L.A.) that could host a 40-team event for three days plus setup", I'd be hard-pressed. I might be able to come up with 4-5, but I'd really have to think about it to get more. The reason: We don't have "weather". We have "climate" with a side of "mild rainy season".

[AdamHeard]

See the post above ya. They don't have one that's big enough.

Something that most folks east of the Rockies don't necessarily understand is that many of the high schools on the west coast (Vegas included) don't exactly have the largest gyms or other indoor athletic facilities. If I were told "come up with a list of high schools in your area (L.A.) that could host a 40-team event for three days plus setup", I'd be hard-pressed. I might be able to come up with 4-5, but I'd really have to think about it to get more. The reason: We don't have "weather". We have "climate" with a side of "mild rainy season".

AKA, people actually want to live out here :cool:

[Richard Wallace]

We have no highschool venue large enough to handle the minimum 40 ish teams we were told we need to serve and cost of bringing in generator we would need brings overall cost to same as current venue we get for dirt cheap thanks to LV Convention Visitors Authority discount.
I think the LV area has upwards of 2 million residents and about forty high schools. If our one high school in a community of about 8 thousand can host a district competition, surely one (or more) of those LV high schools can do it.

Venue rental is not usually the largest cost difference between regionals and district competitions. Professional event management and A/V services make regionals much more expensive to operate than districts.

I served on a regional planning committee for several years, in St. Louis, before moving to Michigan. The regional I helped to plan and run had a budget more than 20 times what my district competition runs on today.

Of course this is not easy -- it takes a small army of dedicated volunteers and some of the best organizers in the FRC community. But surely LV is up to that kind of challenge.

[EricH]

I think the LV area has upwards of 2 million residents and about forty high schools. If our one high school in a community of about 8 thousand can host a district competition, surely one (or more) of those LV high schools can do it.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but of the roughly 50 high schools nearest me, I can only think of 5, max, that would fit the bill, just from space, not even counting schedule. L.A. has a similar population density to some areas of Vegas. You guys are 1/1, we're 1/10 if that. Some of our high schools could probably fit their entire athletic areas, football field gym and all, into the space used by IRI (including theater and possibly the neighboring swim area).

Here's the thing: Out here, high schools are rather space-constrained by neighborhoods. If any given high school (let alone middle/elementary schools) needs to expand, they have only one place to go: straight up. Or straight onto the athletic fields, which are probably about the only open space for a few hundred yards. Bigger gym? Sorry, there goes the X building. Oh, we need that? Guess we've gotta build a taller building for Y so we can eliminate the need for X. Wait, the Z regulation forbids that? Guess we gotta modernize the gym and skip the expansion. You get the picture. And when something does get budgeted for and built, it can take YEARS. (A local high school put a theater in recently. I think it opened up about 3-4 years ago. They started back when I was in middle school, as I recall. Might be off on the times, but it took a very long time to put up.)

In the Midwest, there's a lot of more open land. True, there's a lot of farmland in use. But the point is, there is very little space at a high school to put a facility that can handle a robotics competition out here, and the existing facilities were generally built when high schools were smaller, smaller athletic departments, you get the picture.

If I can only think of 5 high schools that can maybe handle a district from a space standpoint, and one farther out that definitely can, in a much bigger city area than Vegas, then maybe "We can host a district and we're smaller than you in population" isn't the sort of thing that will help the problem. I've heard that one of the issues with going to a district system in CA is the venues, or lack thereof--as a state, we've got more area and more population, and have had more teams at times, then most of the current district areas. Therefore, there must be something else that is keeping us from going to districts, and suitable venues is a likely suspect, though certainly not the only one.

[Uniwersel]

I think the LV area has upwards of 2 million residents and about forty high schools. If our one high school in a community of about 8 thousand can host a district competition, surely one (or more) of those LV high schools can do it..

I lived in Las Vegas as a freshman, and I can't think of any high school in the area that could support a regional with 50 teams attending. Most of the high schools are based on one of two designs, both of which are similar in size. The high school I went to had a 3 court basketball gym, with a small practice gym attached. There would be space for the field, which would be extremely cramped, but no room for pits.

[Cory]

I think the LV area has upwards of 2 million residents and about forty high schools. If our one high school in a community of about 8 thousand can host a district competition, surely one (or more) of those LV high schools can do it.

Venue rental is not usually the largest cost difference between regionals and district competitions. Professional event management and A/V services make regionals much more expensive to operate than districts.

I served on a regional planning committee for several years, in St. Louis, before moving to Michigan. The regional I helped to plan and run had a budget more than 20 times what my district competition runs on today.

Of course this is not easy -- it takes a small army of dedicated volunteers and some of the best organizers in the FRC community. But surely LV is up to that kind of challenge.

The LVRPC (which has a strong 987 presence on it) consistently puts on one of the best run regionals in FIRST. If Joe is saying they can't do it, then I believe that they have turned over the rocks required to make that statement with confidence.

254 has greatly enjoyed our three trips to the Las Vegas Regional. We probably would have made Las Vegas our default second regional, if it did not begin to overlap SVR the last few years. It has some of the friendliest event staff, is very smoothly run, and is always a lot of fun for the teams. The Thomas and Mack Center was a very good venue and from what I've heard from 987 the new convention center is even better.

Like Pat, I too wonder why exactly FIRST can't continue to contribute 0.125% of their $24,000,000 war chest to sustain one of the best events in their program.

As others have mentioned, this will have a waterfall effect on surrounding areas. CA is already totally saturated and can barely support the number of plays required for local teams. Some local teams who were using LV as a second play are now going to be looking for slots that don't exist in CA. Yeah, we're adding the new Ventura regional, but doing so is just keeping the dam from overflowing...it's not really expanding capacity, especially when you look at growth in rookie teams.

254 certainly hopes that Las Vegas will continue to have a regional and looks forward to an opportunity to attend again.

[Jon Jack]

Some local teams who were using LV as a second play are now going to be looking for slots that don't exist in CA. Yeah, we're adding the new Ventura regional, but doing so is just keeping the dam from overflowing...it's not really expanding capacity, especially when you look at growth in rookie teams.

This.

Adding Ventura and losing Vegas would give western teams the same number of regionals as 2014, but the demand will be higher. Even with 6 regionals it's very difficult for a California team to get a second in-state play. Before this year, our out of state options were:

-Hawaii/Colorado/Utah, which is difficult for most CA teams to pull off financially.
-Arizona, which usually fills very early in registration since it's a smaller event and is filled by Arizona and New Mexico teams.
-Las Vegas which is within driving distance for almost every CA team.
-Oregon/Washington events, which was popular with teams from northern California.

With the formation of the PNW region, we lost the Oregon/Washing events, which made Vegas the best out of state option for many California teams (hence why so many California teams were competing in Vegas this year).

If Vegas closes, that would force most California teams to have to find two events in a state which hasn't been able to support two events for its own teams since the 2010 season. In my opinion, this would be a huge step backwards for FRC.

[tcjinaz]

And here I was thinking how great Vegas would be to hold future FRC Championship events. Vegas has so much hotel capacity, such large convention centers and arenas, and is easily accessible by air from everywhere.

Vegas was our go-to as a second regional because all other SoCal regionals filled up immediately. The Santa Barbara Regional should ease that a little next year, but travel to SB is logistically equivalent at least from where my team is located in Orange County (still need a hotel, etc).
Another reason VEgas was special was it featured so many high-caliber teams. The winners or finalists of the LA, San Diego, Inland Empire, Arizona, and Utah Regionals were all present in Vegas this year!

Vegas is probably not really thrilled about the business generated by FIRST. In my field, the IEEE/ACM Design Automation Conference is the place to be in June. It used to be in Vegas fairly regularly (my first in 1982), but around 2001 the hotels/casinos started looking at how much "side" (gambling) business was being generated and decided DAC was not profitable enough for them, and it has not been back since.

[tcjinaz]

One of the hardest challenges facing the FIRST community is recruiting and sustaining teams on the Native American reservations. The Flagstaff team, 2486, the Coconuts, have made supporting reservation teams a priority. Las Vegas is situated close to the Navajo, Hopi, and many of the Ute nations. Losing LVR will hamper FIRST's goal to reach out to those who can benefit the most.

Time for a regional, certainly eventually a district event, in Flagstaff in the future? The Coconuts has built half a district's worth of teams lately, now it's time for their next challenge.

[mrmummert]

I've been reading this thread on and off and one thing i haven't seen mentioned about the pros and cons of
High School based events and Covention center based events is the mention of events ( a regional or district) held at a local University.

Since i don't live out there i can't speak for you local folks...but back here
in the east we attended the Virginia regional which was held at VCU and the
Chesapeake regional which was held at the University of Maryland for the first time this year.
The DC regional was also held for the first time at George Mason University this year.
I'm sure if i look them up there were others.

VCU's Siegel center is almost right in downtown Richmond....so there
wasn't a lot of room for it when it was built...but it was. Universities
tend to have larger spaces for their uses. The only downside i could see
is a University might turn down a First regional or district if it conflicted
with their Basketball schedule that time of year. Also some Universities
charge more for the use of their venue than others...but in some cases
i think its cheaper than renting a Civic center type venue.

[JB987]

I've been reading this thread on and off and one thing i haven't seen mentioned about the pros and cons of
High School based events and Covention center based events is the mention of events ( a regional or district) held at a local University.

Since i don't live out there i can't speak for you local folks...but back here
in the east we attended the Virginia regional which was held at VCU and the
Chesapeake regional which was held at the University of Maryland for the first time this year.
The DC regional was also held for the first time at George Mason University this year.
I'm sure if i look them up there were others.

VCU's Siegel center is almost right in downtown Richmond....so there
wasn't a lot of room for it when it was built...but it was. Universities
tend to have larger spaces for their uses. The only downside i could see
is a University might turn down a First regional or district if it conflicted
with their Basketball schedule that time of year. Also some Universities
charge more for the use of their venue than others...but in some cases
i think its cheaper than renting a Civic center type venue.

The regional started at UNLV at the Thomas and Mack Arena 10 years ago and we stayed there until venue rates went over $60k (now at $80k and that is with UNLV discount. We moved to small convention center with rental rate of $6k plus portable stands costing around $14k I believe. Community college facility alternative is no good. We lowered our regional cost significantly over the last 3 years. The problem continues to be difficulty getting the community to contribute more $. We added a professional fund raiser to our board and fund generation prospects look better now, however, FIRST wants a guarantee right now that our regional will be 100% covered by local sponsors. You can't guarantee sponsor pledges will come through as many of you may know...

[David Brinza]

I'm not an accountant, but a quick look at FIRST's financials (http://www3.usfirst.org/annual-report/#46-47/z) seem to indicate that the organization is operating at a $2M yearly surplus and is sitting on top of nearly $24M in cash and short-term investments.

Given that for the parent organization funding is apparently not in short supply, is it unreasonable of me to ask why regionals experiencing financial hardship can't retain a larger portion of their own registration fees?I'm not an accountant either, but to get better insight into FIRST financials, their Form 990 filing provides details for revenues, expenses and compensation for the fiscal year. As a non-profit organization, FIRST's 2011 Form 990 filing is public information and can be found on the web (http://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/222990908). ::rtm::

An interesting aspect of the filing is the expenses falling under the category of "grants or other assistance to organizations, governments and individuals." Expenditure of grants received by FIRST from donors for specific teams in excess of $5000 are listed in Schedule I (starting on page 35). Basically, team registration fees are considered fair market value for "Kit of parts and program participation."

One might expect a portion of the team's registration fee for events would be applied directly the cost of events the team attends, but this is not the case. This begs the question: for teams registering for than one regional, just what program participation expenses are being paid by the additional $4000 per regional?

Some transparency from FIRST here would also be appreciated.

[scca229]

If LVR needs a year to recoup funds, couldn't they run a more district-sized event and make back their debts? I feel like teams would accept this to keep the competition and FIRST would do it to break even. Lose the flashy A/V & venue this next year and bring it back after that.

Joe would have to chime in here, but I *think* the "flashy A/V" is actually donated...

Am I right in thinking that Joe?

Also, those saying that the AZ Regional is "smaller" need to look at the registration numbers...both events were set at 51 this year (AZ had 2 no shows, I think LV had 1). They are both the same size registration wise, but LV is a much larger venue. Really curious now what AZ's 2nd regional venue size will be next year since it is at a university.

I am so hoping this doesn't come to pass as I love my mini-vacation in LV even though it is the most exhausting fun I've ever had being the FTAA

Nate
LVR FTAA 2013-2014, AZR FTAA 2013, AZR Robot inspector 2014

[tcjinaz]

Joe would have to chime in here, but I *think* the "flashy A/V" is actually donated...

Am I right in thinking that Joe?

Also, those saying that the AZ Regional is "smaller" need to look at the registration numbers...both events were set at 51 this year (AZ had 2 no shows, I think LV had 1). They are both the same size registration wise, but LV is a much larger venue. Really curious now what AZ's 2nd regional venue size will be next year since it is at a university.

I am so hoping this doesn't come to pass as I love my mini-vacation in LV even though it is the most exhausting fun I've ever had being the FTAA

Nate
LVR FTAA 2013-2014, AZR FTAA 2013, AZR Robot inspector 2014

The quick glance at Grand Canyon University's athletics facilities show this: http://www.gculopes.com/sports/2010/4/7/Antelope%20Gymnasium.aspx?&tab=4
and this:
http://www.gculopes.com/sports/2012/3/5/GCU.aspx?&tab=4

Which probably add up to more space than the AZ Regional gets at Hamilton High School, if FIRST gets all of it.

So you might lose a vacation in Sin City, but gain one in N Phoenix :)

[OZ_341]

I hope everything works out for the LV Regional.
Its a great regional, run by great people.

* Teams from around the region and around the world.
* High competitive level.
* There are a ton of inexpensive and wholesome activities for kids to do after competition ends. (Red Rock Canyon, Circus Circus, Outdoor Shows, Tiger Habitat....)
* Hotels are very inexpensive
* High Quality volunteer Staff

I really hope that FIRST can look past the financial bumps and supports this regional which serves so many local teams.

If there is anything that 341 can do to support you, please let us know.

[Lil' Lavery]

While it may lose some of the travel appeal, has serious consideration been given to alternative sites in Nevada that may end up being cheaper or have more local support?

[Cory]

While it may lose some of the travel appeal, has serious consideration been given to alternative sites in Nevada that may end up being cheaper or have more local support?

I'm not sure where else you could do it besides Reno, which is also big on casinos and entertainment.

[DELurker]

I lived in Las Vegas as a freshman, and I can't think of any high school in the area that could support a regional with 50 teams attending. Most of the high schools are based on one of two designs, both of which are similar in size. The high school I went to had a 3 court basketball gym, with a small practice gym attached. There would be space for the field, which would be extremely cramped, but no room for pits.

Coming in late to this discussion...

If you move the event to a district-sized venue, you need to have a district-sized attendance. The description one poster gave of a 3-court gym with a practice gym on the side is all you need. Put bleachers over two of the courts and the field on one and there's your arena. Turn the side gym and maybe another mid-sized room into the pits, and you have a district-sized venue suitable for 40 teams. This describes most of the MAR districts I've attended as well as many of the off-season events on the east coast.

More on-topic: It's disappointing that LVR cannot garner more sponsorship to make this a dead issue. I hate seeing Regionals go away without some form of replacement. Would Nellis AFB be able to provide some form of DOD sponsorship grant?

I would encourage any teams who are looking at folding due to this potential setback to reconsider. There are regional events within 300 miles of LV that are viable. My 11-person team travels 2+ hours each way (about 140 miles each way) to our two district events each year. It's taken some changes in how we approach the events to reduce our costs (drive team only for the first night before competition), but we've done it with a minimal budget. If nothing else, have the students approach this as another design problem: how do we find more money?

[Ether]

FWIW. All to same scale.

[Scott_4140]

The engineering community in Las Vegas is smaller than most cities its size. That's not the industry that Las Vegas grew up around. That would be the gambling and entertainment industry. Unfortunately, as pointed out by another post, their interests and therefore support, doesn't align well with FIRST.

There is however a companion industry that could line up with FIRST. Conventions! Conventions are a huge draw for the hotels and casinos in Las Vegas. Many of these conventions are technology oriented. The Consumer Electronics Show (CES) being one of the most well know.

The promoters of these technology driven conventions have a vested interest in furthering the industries they support. I would think a case could be made to them that sponsorship of an FRC Regional Completion aligns with their interests and could be promoted to their attending companies.

[JB987]

Exterior image of Las Vegas High School makes it look big but looks can be deceiving. Yes the field could fit in the main gym but the aux gym can only handle 30 pits max (with no room for even a quarter practice field. Additional halls or cafeteria on other side of outside multi-level quad area where you might fit more pits require elements exposed trip across the quad where ramps are...yes it does rain in Vegas (only on event days of course:D ). Remember, we were told we have to plan to have at least 40 teams to keep the regional (in addition to increased funds).

School pictured is one of almost 20 clones and same as Cimarron-Memorial HS, home of my High Rollers. Believe me we have pitched the idea of the event in our own school. Costs for usage and generators needed add up to venue costs at current Cashman Event Center, many times bigger. All other schools smaller or similar size with same usage constraints. I wonder, by the way, how many out of state teams (like many teams from across the country or ocean who have competed here) would come all this way to compete in a gym? As stated, however, the main concern is difficulties garnering financial support...and there are strong efforts in the works to ensure sufficient funding for the event.

One sad irony of this that FIRST appears comfortable with doing away with an event that has cost them $20-30k yet netted them at least $160k in mostly all second/third event registrations...

[JB987]

The engineering community in Las Vegas is smaller than most cities its size. That's not the industry that Las Vegas grew up around. That would be the gambling and entertainment industry. Unfortunately, as pointed out by another post, their interests and therefore support, doesn't align well with FIRST.

There is however a companion industry that could line up with FIRST. Conventions! Conventions are a huge draw for the hotels and casinos in Las Vegas. Many of these conventions are technology oriented. The Consumer Electronics Show (CES) being one of the most well know.

The promoters of these technology driven conventions have a vested interest in furthering the industries they support. I would think a case could be made to them that sponsorship of an FRC Regional Completion aligns with their interests and could be promoted to their attending companies.

The case has been made, somewhat successfully already. The Convention and Visitors Authority made the Cashman Field venue available to us this past few years for just a few thousand dollars space rental and around $12k for portable seating...(instead of tens of thousands as any other user would pay to lease the property for 4 days).

[Bob Steele]

My suggestion would be to try and find out if any of FIRST's major supporters have major conventions in LV. If they do... they might be able to put some pressure on local concerns regarding supporting the FIRST Regional.

If LV were to drop a big convention... it could cost them millions in revenue.
Supporting FIRST is such a small piece ....
Are there any big LV conventions that have a Tech orientation...you might be able to use that as a way for LV to see that this is good for them.

$100,000 in support is really a drop in the bucket for some of these venues.
I am not sure how to do it but trying to find a way of appealing to any kinds of tech things that happen there might be an idea.

[Lil' Lavery]

Some of the entertainment options in Vegas do employ engineers, namely some of the bigger stage shows. I know Cirque du Soleil used to be represented on the FRC GDC. I wonder if approaching these directly may be more beneficial?

I'm not sure where else you could do it besides Reno, which is also big on casinos and entertainment.

I realize Reno is also a gambling/entertainment driven city, but perhaps the University of Nevada, Reno may be a more affordable venue or more generous sponsor than UNLV? Same can be said for other universities around the state, even if they're in lesser known locations. MAR Championship has been held in a relatively remote location (Bethlehem, PA) the past two years because the venue price was substantially lower than Philadelphia. I was checking to see if this was an avenue the LVRPC has explored.

[JB987]

My suggestion would be to try and find out if any of FIRST's major supporters have major conventions in LV. If they do... they might be able to put some pressure on local concerns regarding supporting the FIRST Regional.

If LV were to drop a big convention... it could cost them millions in revenue.
Supporting FIRST is such a small piece ....
Are there any big LV conventions that have a Tech orientation...you might be able to use that as a way for LV to see that this is good for them.

$100,000 in support is really a drop in the bucket for some of these venues.
I am not sure how to do it but trying to find a way of appealing to any kinds of tech things that happen there might be an idea.

There are many major tech related conventions and we have pitched support for our regional many times. My team is usually the team that attends and represents local robotics efforts and FIRST Nevada with demos and positive interaction with major companies present and the group putting on the shows hasn't born fruit yet (even with follow up of course). Minor support for our team has resulted a few times, but no luck getting support for our regional.

Starting to sound like I am defensive so I am going to back off on explanations for awhile. Everybody's suggestions have been and still are appreciated...keep up the sharing of ideas as something positive may come of the exchange of ideas!

[Scott_4140]

The LV Convention Center covers many of the large conventions. Sounds like you're well connected there. There are many more conventions that deal directly with the larger hotel chains. The convention center is not going to have listings for those conventions.

The convention center and the hotels are not typically the promoters of the event. They may be willing to connect you, although I'm guessing they're going to hold their contacts pretty tight to the vest. Fortunately, most of the promoters are actively on the internet promoting their conventions. Once you have a list of all the technical ones in town, you should be able to dig up your own contact list.

This should be straight forward for any going through the Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority. This will get you about half of your potential targets. Beyond that, you'll need to search the larger hotels with convention facilities.

Demonstrations at the events are going to connect you with the attending companies. Unless they're from Las Vegas, you're not going to get much direct support there. It does help the general visibility of FIRST.

[AdamHeard]

I think what we should be focusing on here is not what the Vegas planning community can do to raise more money (they seem like they know their stuff and are working on it), but rather the rationale of cancelling an event that in theory is profitable.

[Scott_4140]

I think what we should be focusing on here is not what the Vegas planning community can do to raise more money (they seem like they know their stuff and are working on it), but rather the rationale of cancelling an event that in theory is profitable.

There are lots of potential behind the scenes motives. We will never know unless FIRST decides to share.

To be efficient FIRST needs to manage all the events like a business. This appears to be the main factor here. Low performing "stores" get closed, so you can open at a different location just a block away. So the block here, is in anther state. Case by case handling sets a precedent they may not want to deal with.

If you look at the CA District angle, this is one more incentive to push CA into the District model. Forces CA to get it done! It's in their best interest to if Las Vegas might go away.

This is only 2 of dozens of potential motives.

[JB987]

Some of the entertainment options in Vegas do employ engineers, namely some of the bigger stage shows. I know Cirque du Soleil used to be represented on the FRC GDC. I wonder if approaching these directly may be more beneficial?



I realize Reno is also a gambling/entertainment driven city, but perhaps the University of Nevada, Reno may be a more affordable venue or more generous sponsor than UNLV? Same can be said for other universities around the state, even if they're in lesser known locations. MAR Championship has been held in a relatively remote location (Bethlehem, PA) the past two years because the venue price was substantially lower than Philadelphia. I was checking to see if this was an avenue the LVRPC has explored.

Cirque is a sponsor our regional for $10k and the affiliated SoloTec that helps produce their shows provides us under cost AV for venue...and helps to make the regional a top notch event. Reno has no teams and is barely able to support an FLL and FTC event. Given FIRST's concern that growth hasn't been strong enough I don't think they would endorse moving the regional to Reno even if they had a workable venue. There are only two universities in the state and the few smaller colleges do not have venues that fit our needs. The only facility at UNLV that can handle an event is the aforementioned Thomas and Mack, not owned by the university, with a 20k seat arena that has gotten way to expensive for us to use (great when we had it though:) ) The attached Cox Pavilion is too small to host an event.

[AdamHeard]

If you look at the CA District angle, this is one more incentive to push CA into the District model. Forces CA to get it done! It's in their best interest to if Las Vegas might go away.

NO. No it's not.

Hurt teams (who mostly have no idea about these goings on) to force a point?

I know that can't possibly be FIRST's motive.

[JB987]

Thank you Adam:)

[sanddrag]

FWIW doesn't Autodesk host their annual "University" in Vegas?

[Mark Sheridan]

There are lots of potential behind the scenes motives. We will never know unless FIRST decides to share.

To be efficient FIRST needs to manage all the events like a business. This appears to be the main factor here. Low performing "stores" get closed, so you can open at a different location just a block away. So the block here, is in anther state. Case by case handling sets a precedent they may not want to deal with.

If you look at the CA District angle, this is one more incentive to push CA into the District model. Forces CA to get it done! It's in their best interest to if Las Vegas might go away.

This is only 2 of dozens of potential motives.

The real customer is the teams. If regionals competed with other with entry fees, Las Vegas would be at the top with the highest demand. What we have is that a highly demanded product but it gets money from other sources. Teams love this regional, its a shame there are not enough sponsors to help. If team demand translate to more money for the regional, this regional would be fine but the business model is not set up that way.

To be fair most Californians would consider Nevada part of our community and vice-versa. Especially those in So Cal, Las Vegas is a second home. A So Cal Joke is that Las Vegas (Clark County) is part of the Greater Los Angelas Area. I am pretty sure a lot of California teams want to keep going to Las Vegas even when California has Districts.

In regards to the slow process of California getting districts I just wanted to add to Eric's point that a lot of high schools in California only have one gym. Almost every sport is practiced outside in California. If there is a school assembly, its held outside. School dances often happen off campus. Cafeterias are extremely rare in California. So typical California high schools only have one large building on campus.

[Scott_4140]

The real customer is the teams. If regionals competed with other with entry fees, Las Vegas would be at the top with the highest demand. What we have is that a highly demanded product but it gets money from other sources. Teams love this regional, its a shame there are not enough sponsors to help. If team demand translate to more money for the regional, this regional would be fine but the business model is not set up that way.

You need to get inside FIRST's head as to what "performing" might mean in this context. Certainly they are financially motivated, but that's only part of the formula.

As someone else posted, FIRST is trying to implement a culture change. Growth is most important. There are many ways to measure this growth. Number of teams, number of students, number of volunteers, number of sponsors...

If a regional can't pull in the sponsors needed to support it, that's going to be a red flag for FIRST. We've already established that Las Vegas is not an Engineering focal point.

FIRST also has criteria for new regionals based on the number of local teams. Does Las Vegas meet this criteria? If not, it's another red flag.

If CA is the main supplier of out of state teams for Las Vegas then any new regional in AZ or CA nets FIRST the same money.

MN organizes regionals a little different than most. We have one group that does all 4 MN regionals. If Duluth was organized on it's own, I don't think it would have the success it does today. Maybe Las Vegas needs to partner with one or more of the CA regional planners. The combined support of those CA companies that want to support the CA teams may save Las Vegas.

[Cory]

There are lots of potential behind the scenes motives. We will never know unless FIRST decides to share.

To be efficient FIRST needs to manage all the events like a business. This appears to be the main factor here. Low performing "stores" get closed, so you can open at a different location just a block away. So the block here, is in anther state. Case by case handling sets a precedent they may not want to deal with.

If you look at the CA District angle, this is one more incentive to push CA into the District model. Forces CA to get it done! It's in their best interest to if Las Vegas might go away.

This is only 2 of dozens of potential motives.

This is not true. CA was getting a 7th regional regardless of whether or not the Las Vegas Regional exists. There is no way this was an either or proposition, where CA could come up with the money, and NV could not.

[Scott_4140]

This is not true. CA was getting a 7th regional regardless of whether or not the Las Vegas Regional exists. There is no way this was an either or proposition, where CA could come up with the money, and NV could not.

My intention with the CA Districts angle was not to whip up the conspiracy theorists or the anti conspiracy theorists. It was an attempt to show how varied and potentially compounding the motives might be. I regret clouding the issue.

Without additional insight from FIRST, attempting to determine their reasons, is going to be little more than a guessing game.

What's known, is that if Las Vegas gets the funds together, all is good.

[waialua359]

A lot of the concerns I've seen here are about doing more than just 1 event. The FRC experience used to be where MOST teams did just 1 event. As an outsider to district events, it has influenced us to participating in more events and wanting a State (district) Championship much like others that do a week 7 event. This in addition to doing more events at a fraction of the reg cost to participate in a traditional regional.

With respect to the financial reasons behind closing LVR, I would guess that the LVR situation is independent of what is happening in surrounding states such as CA and AZ. Other than the teams in Nevada, if LVR provided an additional event for neighboring teams, I doubt that its enough of a reason for FIRST to say there is a shortage of regionals for teams to participate in, generally speaking.

However, if the reason that FIRST is pulling the plug on LVR is because they cant raise enough money within their own area, to what extent does "pooling" all of the reg fees from teams, should it be used to cover the shortfall? FIRST uses reg fees towards growth, which isnt necessarily within our own respective areas any given year. There is no doubt that LVR is a regional that many teams want to attend based on the no. of participants each year. Does that matter though to FIRST if growth is stagnant and the budget shortfalls? We will find out soon enough.

[JB987]

And the sad irony here is that prior to this development I had a solid commitment for 2-3 new teams, reasonable likelihood of two returns to active and at most 2 teams folding...net gain of 3 to add to the current 8 Vegas teams...A healthy increase by most standards I think.

[bduddy]

You need to get inside FIRST's head as to what "performing" might mean in this context. Certainly they are financially motivated, but that's only part of the formula.

As someone else posted, FIRST is trying to implement a culture change. Growth is most important. There are many ways to measure this growth. Number of teams, number of students, number of volunteers, number of sponsors...

If a regional can't pull in the sponsors needed to support it, that's going to be a red flag for FIRST. We've already established that Las Vegas is not an Engineering focal point.

FIRST also has criteria for new regionals based on the number of local teams. Does Las Vegas meet this criteria? If not, it's another red flag.

If CA is the main supplier of out of state teams for Las Vegas then any new regional in AZ or CA nets FIRST the same money.

MN organizes regionals a little different than most. We have one group that does all 4 MN regionals. If Duluth was organized on it's own, I don't think it would have the success it does today. Maybe Las Vegas needs to partner with one or more of the CA regional planners. The combined support of those CA companies that want to support the CA teams may save Las Vegas.You're not making any sense... so you're saying that FIRST should focus exclusively on the areas that already have a lot of willing sponsors and engineering support? How is that causing any culture change?

[Scott_4140]

You're not making any sense... so you're saying that FIRST should focus exclusively on the areas that already have a lot of willing sponsors and engineering support? How is that causing any culture change?

You need to play some strategy games! It's about resource management. You can't win every battle you enter. You need to focus you energy/resources/influence where it will net you the largest return. As your influence increases, and the culture changes, it's easier to win over areas that you could not win before.

And no, there's not just one factor. There are no "exclusives". Sponsors and engineering support are only part of the equation. If there were 25 teams in the area, Las Vegas would probably get more time and money from FIRST. They'd still probably get a deadline for being self sufficient. As it stands, 8 teams and continued lack of support puts the regional at risk. There are probably many more factors like volunteer support, strength of the planning organization, and venue.

I think the minimum number of local teams for a new regional is 12. So even picking up 3 more teams wouldn't qualify if it was a new regional trying to come online.

What's the actual formula? No idea. FIRST obviously has one. I doubt its arbitrary. The formula also changes over time. Otherwise, there never would have been a regional in Las Vegas to begin with. The bar is always moving.

Growing the number of local teams has got to help. Getting more financial support obviously helps. If they can't get the financial support the level that FIRST wants, is there a combination of other factors that will buy them another year? Probably.

[Chief Hedgehog]

The conversation in this thread concerns me. I know that Las Vegas is a completely different nut to crack - but how is FIRST looking to hedge their bets against something like this happening in other areas?

Obviously the District format is preferential in areas that have many established FRC teams. But those are not spread evenly across the country. My concern (selfishly) is - what happens in Minnesota? If this can happen in LV, this could happen in a place like Duluth, MN.

The reason I state this is because LV is dependent upon tourism, conventions, etc. Now that it is 'safe' to have conventions in LV again, a lot more money pours in from entities that can out-spend FIRST. I don't know if this is the case, but I do know my wife's company is holding a convention back in LV after a 5 year hiatus. And there is no way that FIRST can outbid my wife's company.

Take that to a smaller scale - like Duluth, MN - if tourism takes an upswing as the economy stabilizes, what happens to FRC events that took advantage of low cost arenas that can now claim a premium? Now companies and conventions have the capital to take advantage of low cost arenas and outbid FRC events.

I do not wish to see MN lose regionals - and we are not ready to go to the district formula (even though we now have 186 teams). We don't have the volunteer levels to support districts. Maybe a move to St Cloud or Rochester is in order?

[James3245]

I think FIRST should be careful. If only from a core-relations-with-their-most-ardent-supporters point of view. It's a pretty smart and savvy community of people with proven brainstorming skills.

I detect amidst the FRC community, especially among some of the most core community members, an uneasiness about the financials of the whole system. Occasionally it flares up here or there, such as in this case, but mostly it is background, felt mostly while going through the fundraising efforts to make a team, or region or district's books balance for the prescribed FRC franchise formula.

The inescapable truth (someone show me otherwise!) with Las Vegas is that it is needed by many teams, it delivers prescribed FRC event quality, and it turns a big profit for HQ. The driver it seems is that the big profit is not big enough.

It leaves me with a very different feeling about FIRST, and it gets me started thinking creatively about alternatives.

For $20 K our region could get one of the new Andymark fields, one time cost, and start doing "in-season" second regionals. Yes it would be challenging to replicate the full experience but we would not try to, exactly. It would not have been very hard to build and run the basic field of this year. (2013 pyramids would have been harder) We could even run our own, probably unsanctioned, state championship. All we would need to do to fill out 80%-ish of the "full experience" would be to convince IRI or another highly-competitive off-season event to accept our teams so that a team or two could go to a championship-type of event.

Yes, a bit wacky to try to build a hybrid experience that tries to be FIRST/non-FIRST at the same time. And I know I'm overlooking a ton of technical details related to field management. (however, if you unleash say $2000 from 20 teams plus thousands saved by doing it smaller scale) But for those of us who are relatively isolated, it starts to make sense financially as regions, (even financially viable ones) start being pulled by HQ.

it has been interesting, to feel the transition in my own thoughts/feelings over this past few days evolve from to "what? this is really bad, for us and for others" to "how could this happen" to "Hmmm...now I think I understand what's going on and I don't like it" to "this whole operation may not be what I thought is was" to "time to think creatively about alternatives".

There's a point where it makes more sense to take the time and energy of chasing down sponsors for venue and related costs and sponsors for one's individual teams and pour it instead into one's own event. I've never been to an off-season event but my impression is that they can be done very well.

I don't think my musings will likely end up with some kind of fundamentally different model that somehow challenges FIRST, but brainstorming can be powerful and disruptive, as we preach to our own students.

[Scott_4140]

The conversation in this thread concerns me. I know that Las Vegas is a completely different nut to crack - but how is FIRST looking to hedge their bets against something like this happening in other areas?

Obviously the District format is preferential in areas that have many established FRC teams. But those are not spread evenly across the country. My concern (selfishly) is - what happens in Minnesota? If this can happen in LV, this could happen in a place like Duluth, MN.

The reason I state this is because LV is dependent upon tourism, conventions, etc. Now that it is 'safe' to have conventions in LV again, a lot more money pours in from entities that can out-spend FIRST. I don't know if this is the case, but I do know my wife's company is holding a convention back in LV after a 5 year hiatus. And there is no way that FIRST can outbid my wife's company.

Take that to a smaller scale - like Duluth, MN - if tourism takes an upswing as the economy stabilizes, what happens to FRC events that took advantage of low cost arenas that can now claim a premium? Now companies and conventions have the capital to take advantage of low cost arenas and outbid FRC events.

I do not wish to see MN lose regionals - and we are not ready to go to the district formula (even though we now have 186 teams). We don't have the volunteer levels to support districts. Maybe a move to St Cloud or Rochester is in order?

FIRST needs to keep a long range "strategic" plan and let the Regional Planning groups worry about the short range "tactical" issues. FIRST is aware of the fact that there are a limited number of venues and dates available to support the regional model. Their "hedge" is the district model. Smaller venues that are more plentiful.

MN FIRST Regional is well aware of the venue issues. They work very hard to secure them well in advance. Institutions like the University of MN have a vested interest in STEM, so are less likely to pull a venue out from under FIRST.

The DECC on the other hand exists to bring money into the Duluth economy. That's not just facility rental. That includes area hotels, restaurants, tourism, gas station sales, airline sales,... At some point could MN FIRST get bumped? Absolutely. Could it get bumped to a different week? That may already be happening.

MN is already looking ahead towards a future 5th regional. Could be Rochester, St. Cloud, or wherever they can find a suitable venue with enough infrastructure to support a regional. As more areas around MN close off with districts, this will be a bigger concern. Just like CA, the options for 2nd tournaments get crunched.

[yash101]

Jinkies! LVR is my favorite regional! :eek: :mad:

Hopefully some similar regional will be created!

[JB987]

Just an update on things. The board decided to table their decision regarding the cancelation of LVR.. Seems they were bombarded with a huge amount of "data" included in many, many communications from people arguing on behalf of keeping our regional alive...even a couple US Senators, some congressmen, a governor, mayors, etc, other FIRSTer's. :D

Hopefully they will see the light and allow us a chance to finish pulling together all our sponsorship commitments by September.

[OZ_341]

Just an update on things. The board decided to table their decision regarding the cancelation of LVR.. ..........
Hopefully they will see the light and allow us a chance to finish pulling together all our sponsorship commitments by September.

Great News!
Good luck! We are all rooting for you.