Pit work during ceremonies

[Nemo]

Why is it considered so bad to leave a couple of people in the pits to quietly work on the robots during opening ceremonies?

Our team went to the R2OC offseason event, and it was amazing to not be harried out of the pits to attend the ceremonies. Our team and the other teams I observed left about two people in the pits and the rest of the team went to the ceremony. The world did not end.

The rules indicate that using power tools or being noisy during ceremonies is not allowed. This implies that work is not absolutely banned at that time. At official regionals I've been to, the policy has tended to be that you can only be in the pit if you haven't passed inspection yet. Why? This policy runs in strong opposition to the natural tendencies of the hard working and time pressed teams at the events. It surely creates a lot of unhappiness and stress for both teams and volunteers. Why is it necessary for us to punish ourselves?

Again, I point out that it is pretty easy for rational teams to send 90% of the team to the ceremony and leave a couple of people behind to quietly and productively get the robot ready to put on the most inspiring show possible. There is quite simply no harm in this. It is not a grave insult to anybody.

[BigJ]

Different regionals have different policies on the issue.

Most regionals we have been to do run the strict "no one in the pits for cenemonies" rule, but not all (Midwest usually let us leave a couple people in the pit given that they were quiet).

(tip: just sit in the seats right outside the pit exit :) )

[IndySam]

Pit and safety volunteers want to see the ceremony too.

[Carrington]

This is something that we've dealt with in the past and in our experience it's very dependent on the event as Josh has said. At the Championship event in 2011 we had 2-3 working in our pit during the opening ceremony and were actually told by the pit administration that we were in violation of some rule from the manual. We then politely asked them if they would mind checking the manual and to their surprise we pulled up the exact section you are referring to. With the understanding that we weren't going to use any power tools and that we were only going to have a few people working they let us remain in our pit. On the other hand we've tried using this same logic at regional events and been given quite a different response. I can see arguments for both sides of this debate, but as it is now the rules from FIRST do not prohibit members of your team from being in the pit area during the opening ceremonies.

[treffk]

Every event is a bit different with interpretations on certain things. Working during ceremonies is one of them. Another I've encountered is the shade of blue on safety glasses, I've had some Safety Advisers tell me you have to be able to see your pupils and others not care.

Specifically regarding pit work during ceremonies my take is that some view it as disrespectful. You're supposed to stop all work and pay attention to what is going on. (Despite the fact some regional's have a screen in the pits showing what's going on at the field.) Similar to how some feel about technology at the dinner table.

I personally do not mind it, since technically 1 person is supposed to be in the pits at all times while they are open. In my mind this includes ceremonies, excluding the final awards one as most teams are already packed and ready to head out. Some teams to clean up and rope off their pits if they will not be in it which helps outsiders/non-team members not to poke around. Plus depending on how they do it they can see if it had been messed with when they get back.

[BrendanB]

There are very few times where I'd say its okay to be working in the pits. At the Granite State District there were so many teams who still needed to pass inspection so they were allowed to work.

Other than that you should be respectful, put the tools down, and go to opening ceremonies.

[orangemoore]

We have in the past have been shooed out of the pits for opening ceremony with the only exception of this year when we had not fully passed inspection and our matching was coming up.

In general unless you have a good reason to be in the pits (Not passed inspection/Robot blew up/etc.) you shouldn't be in the pits.
Is that fair?

[BigJ]

What's allowed, reasonable, and fair is following the rules as written in the rulebook (including given head volunteer override caveats) equally for all teams.

What's socially acceptable and won't get you on the volunteers' bad side is another story. :)

[Aren_Hill]

*put on team mentor hat, take off VEXpro hat*

The Manual has covered this circumstance for awhile,

4.9.2 Pit Manners/Rules during the Ceremonies

Team members will not be allowed to use power tools, hammers or other noisy tools during the ceremonies
All persons in the Pit should observe the code of behavior for the presentation of all national anthems:
Maintain a respectful silence;
Stand, facing the flag. If there is no flag, look toward the video screen showing a flag; and
ALL hats off please.
4.10 PIT CLOSING ETIQUITTE

The problem here is various regionals having volunteers and regional directors decide to ignore the manual and enforce what they like, much of the time the volunteer being told to clear the pits is not even aware the above quoted rule exists, and are blindly following someone above them.

Pit and safety volunteers want to see the ceremony too.

Then these volunteers should consider this before applying to said role, or check with the coordinator if they are needed during these times.

I've been meaning to submit this consistency problem to a Frank answers Friday sometime, teams having alotted robot access time randomly removed isn't the greatest experience.

-Aren

[cgmv123]

The opening ceremony is only ~30 minutes out of a potential 12+ hours of pit access. Go enjoy the ceremony and remember that there's a lot of work* that can be done in the stands. That said, make sure you pay attention, clap when appropriate, and stand and remove caps for the national anthem.

*Programming, strategizing with future alliance partners...

[MARS_James]

I have never had anyone at any event ask me to leave the pit for opening ceremonies, or awards so I was unaware this was even an issue, just goes to show what issues effect different competitions. As stated above there is a clear rule stating the appropriateness of what can and can not be done, and their has only been one time where anything happened in a pit to disrupt the ceremonies that i attended and that was the 2012 South Florida Regional which was in one big basketball court, pits and all, and it was a robot driving off the teams table and making a very loud crash.

So maybe it is just me but the manual says the rules, if venue staff/volunteers choose not to follow the rules, then that is an issue that individual teams need to take up with the volunteer/regional coordinators.

[madhav]

Our team has been kicked out during the ceremonies. However during the ceremonies I've seen teams of 6 or 7 working on their robots and nothing seemed to be an issue with them.

I think it depends on whether you challenge them and whip out the rulebook.

And with the rule on safety glasses. Coloured or tinted ones at LA and Vegas are a no-no. It has to do with some safety something. I never fought it.

[PayneTrain]

I have never had anyone at any event ask me to leave the pit for opening ceremonies

Then you're not going to the right (wrong?) events. Regional competitions I have visited in the past have always trotted out the most lovely of individuals to bluntly kick out even the most troubled rookie on Friday morning. When we went to Alamo this year and DIDN'T have that happen, I was surprised. I'm sure the multiple teams, including the one our programmer and pit tech helped were thankful.

Thanks to Aren for pointing that out, because I don't seem to read the Admin Manual cover-to-cover like I should.

[EricH]

And with the rule on safety glasses. Coloured or tinted ones at LA and Vegas are a no-no. It has to do with some safety something. I never fought it.

Check the FRC Safety Manual. Certain colors are perfectly fine (as I recall, it's amber, blue, and one other, I want to say red) but anything else (like reflective) is out. Not sure why, but that's the way it is.

[madhav]

Check the FRC Safety Manual.

Ain't nobody got time for that

[BBray_T1296]

The rule on tinted safety glasses is so people can see your eyes. Not entirely sure how that makes things better, but basically any kind of glasses that makes seeing your eyes very possible is OK.

[cadandcookies]

To play a little devil's advocate: where in the rules does it guarantee that you can be in the pit during ceremonies? Yes, it looks like there's a "If you're in the pits, these are the rules," but I don't see anything guaranteeing that you can be in the pit. If somebody does see something with that guarantee, it has not been posted here.

Then it would indeed be up to the regional staff to decide whether being in the pits is appropriate-- though I would agree that there aren't all that many reasons not to allow work during ceremonies. Then again, I've seen significantly more malicious "ignoring" of the rules at events than clearing the pits (though I think I've covered those grievances elsewhere).

[Bryan Herbst]

I'm in favor of getting teams out of pits for opening ceremonies.

There's a lot of recognition that happens at the opening ceremonies- frequently community leaders show up to congratulate the students and it's an opportunity to recognize the volunteers (and introduce the students to some of the important ones). Planning committees spend a lot of time and energy coordinating these, so I don't have a problem giving them a half an hour of my day to relax and enjoy the ceremony.

The ceremonies are also an excellent opportunity to excite the students and get them engaged in the competition. For new students, it makes them aware of how big the competitions can be, and introduces them to the competition format. We also all are aware how stressful practice day can be, so it's a good opportunity to step back and take in the competition for a moment.

FIRST is also trying to make competitions similar to traditional sports competitions in many respects. When was the last time you saw members of a football or hockey team working out in the back room during the opening ceremony? Sure that might be a "better" use of their time, but I doubt many players would even consider it.

I do see exceptions being made every now and then for teams that are in desperate need of that time for one reason or another (perhaps their robot caught fire or they haven't passed inspection and are in the first match), and that's fine.

On a somewhat related note, I wish there was a way to make closing ceremonies mandatory. I understand some teams have a long drive, but they should stick around to support their colleagues. Plus it's awkward when a team wins an award but has already left.

[FrankJ]

It seems they largely cleared the pits at worlds during opening ceremonies?

Peachtree we cleared the pits with the exception of teams with major inspection issues.

[EricH]

I have one suggestion. If you do have people working in your pit (quietly, of course) during ceremonies, make sure that none of them happens to be the mentor your team nominated for WFA.

It's a little tough having to "drag" said mentor out of the pit and wait for him to show up on field. Personal experience. :p

[Richard Wallace]

I have one suggestion. If you do have people working in your pit (quietly, of course) during ceremonies, make sure that none of them happens to be the mentor your team nominated for WFA.WFA nominees are very frequently the mentors most likely to require dragging out of the pit. Sometimes, they must be dragged out of another team's pit. This can happen any time that the pits are being closed -- whether for ceremonies or at the end of the day.

Inspired people are just like that, there is nothing you can do to stop them. Thank goodness. :)

[treffk]

Check the FRC Safety Manual. Certain colors are perfectly fine (as I recall, it's amber, blue, and one other, I want to say red) but anything else (like reflective) is out. Not sure why, but that's the way it is.

It's clear, blue, amber and yellow that are allowed according to the manual as long as they are non-reflective. Amber is the only color I have not bought for my team. We only had colored glasses one year which is where we ran into the blue being slightly too dark and not being able to see our pupils.

[Kevin Kolodziej]

I'm all for being respectful during ceremonies. I encourage my team to attend and listen to the guest speakers and take in the "show" part of the event. BUT, as others have stated, this is a competition and the teams also want to put on the best "show" that they can as well, and that requires machines working at full capacity.

Friday morning, MOST teams should be ready to go. There may be a few stragglers for inspection, but the majority of teams got inspected on Thursday and have had ample time to get the machine up to speed for Friday morning.

My problem is with Saturday morning. Quite often events run late on Friday. Closing ceremonies start very quickly after the last match. Pits close soon after that. It is very possible to be in one of the last matches on Friday and then be in one of the first few matches on Saturday. When the pits get closed for ceremonies, a machine that requires a good bit of maintenance after a brutal day of qualifying (like we saw so often this year) is inaccessible for about an hour between the two ceremonies, or more after you consider the volunteers trying to get everyone to leave on Friday night and the congestion of getting in on Saturday morning. This leads to robots that aren't ready for Saturday, and the competition devolves into 2v3 or worse with robots limping around because there was no time to fix. No one wants to see that, and we pay good money to be able to participate, so we want to be at our best.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Everyone,
The LRI at your event knows what teams are under a crunch based on their ability to be inspected or compete in one of the early matches. Those teams are usually given the ability to stay and work to insure all teams have a full alliance when they compete.
That said, local and Champs event planners spend a great deal of time trying to get important people to opening ceremonies or to speak at these events. The desire is to get movers and shakers to recognize what we already know to be true. As such, a maximum number of participants carries more weight with these people. Also, if you took some critical time out of your day to speak at a high school robotics event, you expect that the attendees would show you some respect and listen to what you have to say. If you missed opening ceremonies at Champs, you missed a double amputee tell you about the challenges he has overcome and the upbeat outlook he has on your future. If you missed opening at Midwest, you missed listening to the Turkish national anthem sung by the students who traveled thousands of miles to attend in Chicago.

[Brandon Holley]

Most of the argument to keep the pits clear during ceremonies boils down to 2 items: 1. Keep noise to a minimum while people are speaking and 2. Pack the stands to show the VIPs how enthusiastic the crowd is. Both valid points.

I was the event chair for the Northeastern District Event this year and was able to see both sides of the fence (team perspective and event chair perspective). Honestly though, there seems to be a very reasonable compromise (which is partially outlined in the rules). No power tools or loud working (hammering, robot operation, etc). No more than X people TOTAL left in the pits per team (3-4 sounds reasonable).

I instructed my volunteers to encourage people to leave the pit and attend ceremonies, but explicitly instructed them to not attempt to 'kick' anyone out of the pit. To my knowledge, no team left a dozen people in the pit, or attempted to fire up a dremel and grind something off their robot. Teams who felt they needed to work on their robots were able to do so (btw this should be something an individual team decides, not a volunteer), and the crowd for ceremonies was full and energetic.

A team is perfectly within their right to work on their robots during ceremonies as outlined in the rule quoted by Aren. At the end of the day- why put the rule in the rulebook if its not meant to be the guide to event to event consistency?

-Brando

[Jon Stratis]

A team is perfectly within their right to work on their robots during ceremonies as outlined in the rule quoted by Aren. At the end of the day- why put the rule in the rulebook if its not meant to be the guide to event to event consistency?

Please note that rule only applies if the pits are open. If an event determines specific times that the pits are closed (for example, during opening/closing ceremonies), then the pits are closed. Many volunteers want to see the ceremonies, but we can't if we're stuck back in the pits ensuring the safety of everyone there.

[Brandon Holley]

Please note that rule only applies if the pits are open. If an event determines specific times that the pits are closed (for example, during opening/closing ceremonies), then the pits are closed. Many volunteers want to see the ceremonies, but we can't if we're stuck back in the pits ensuring the safety of everyone there.

I guess for me the ultimate goal should be just creating a pleasant and consistent experience event to event. This will help greatly with the tensions that can arise with team expectations and event expectations not being in the same place. If every event is (very close to) the same, then everyone can be on the same page with expectations, but thats certainly not the case as it is now.

Why put specific criteria in verbiage for the rules with a header of "DURING CEREMONIES" that specifies how to handle national anthems if the pits are closed? To me, its an event circumventing the rules, which goes back to my above point of creating a consistent experience for all teams in all locations.

Just my 2 cents on the manner as someone with perspective on both sides of the fence.

-Brando

[MARS_James]

Please note that rule only applies if the pits are open. If an event determines specific times that the pits are closed (for example, during opening/closing ceremonies), then the pits are closed. Many volunteers want to see the ceremonies, but we can't if we're stuck back in the pits ensuring the safety of everyone there.

I have a big problem with this, the manual clearly states rules for people in the pits during ceremonies, meaning it is not against the rules to be in the pits, thus they should be open at ALL competitions. I am going to address this and several other comments below PLEASE NOTE these are my feelings and are not meant as a personal attack on anyone just me stating things:

At the 2010 Florida Regional (Now Orlando Regional), my final competition as a student, we had a brutal schedule, and a sub par robot. When awards ceremonies came on Friday as de facto team captain I made the decision that the rest of the seniors (4 of them) who wanted to work on the robot could but the rest of the team was to be in the stands. We wound up winning the Website award, while walking down I grabbed one of our rookies and told them to go to the pit to get he rest of our team for the picture. Why am I telling this? One of those seniors was not only our lead mechanic, but one of only 2 people to work on the Website in attendance, so he missed walking down to the applause and getting the trophy but we made sure he was in the picture from the event. When I talked to him about later he said something that stuck with me, he was working on this robot for the kids in the stands who were going to be around after us so they could see what we could do with hardwork, was he upset that he couldn't go down to the fan fare and the shaking of hands, yes but it would be worth it down the line.

After 4 build seasons on a team, getting no accolades from FIRST, he received one that really only he worked on to get, and he couldn't receive it, and he wasn't upset by it. Volunteers make the decision to volunteer, that means a time commitment to what you are doing, that means missing speeches, or awards, heck as a mentor I missed Dean attending Orlando in 2013 because when he was in the pits, we were queuing for a match, and when he went out to make a speech I had to rush back to the pits to do an emergency repair because I didn't want our students to miss what he was going to say. As adults, whether we be parents mentors volunteers coaches or teachers, we make sacrifices of our time, energy, and even happiness for our teams or even the community as a whole, because it is all worth it to see the looks on the faces of the students when they win a match, or get an award, or even just get the robot to finally move on the field.

If there are people who are speaking at these events who are upset that not everyone is out in the stands to hear them, then they don't get what we are trying to do here, if we could inspire people by talking to them, then we wouldn't need FIRST.

Sorry for the long rant but seriously guys remember we are doing this for the students, the students worked on this robot for 6 weeks or more, let them do what they feel they need to, and let the teams decide what that is.

*steps off of soapbox*

[Bryan Herbst]

Teams who felt they needed to work on their robots were able to do so (btw this should be something an individual team decides, not a volunteer), and the crowd for ceremonies was full and energetic.

Now we run into the issue of what constitutes a need to work on the robot. For some teams it is obvious- maybe their robot isn't moving. However, many teams also see other "needs." Maybe my robot is already the best robot at the regional, but I "need" to tweak the shooter arm a little bit to ensure I got from getting 95% of the shots to 100% of the shots. Is this really a need though? Should I skip the opening ceremonies to do this?

I'm fine with letting teams who actually have a need sticking around to work on their robot, but allowing the teams to determine if there is a need is essentially the same as just letting everyone stay back in the pit anyway.

Sorry for the long rant but seriously guys remember we are doing this for the students, the students worked on this robot for 6 weeks or more, let them do what they feel they need to, and let the teams decide what that is.

Many of those volunteers who would like to clear the pits for opening ceremonies don't just want to view the ceremonies for the sake of viewing the ceremonies. Many of those volunteers are also mentors for teams and want to be there to celebrate, congratulate, and recognize students from their team and from other teams.

We will never get to a point where we can pull all of the volunteers from the pits due to safety concerns, but if we can get 95% of the teams out of the pits, the vast majority of volunteers in the pits can attend opening ceremonies.

I'm also not convinced that the rules for people being in the pits means that everyone can stay in the pits. As another user posted earlier, I interpret that as being "if you absolutely need to be in the pits, here are the rules." I think it's a good question for Frank.

[FrankJ]

Do realize the people putting on the event have a lot of leeway in interpreting the rules. They are also the final interpreter of the rules for their event.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Don't make it a judgement call. Allow 3-4 members from every team to stay back and explicitly disallow power tools. Done.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Now we run into the issue of what constitutes a need to work on the robot. For some teams it is obvious- maybe their robot isn't moving. However, many teams also see other "needs." Maybe my robot is already the best robot at the regional, but I "need" to tweak the shooter arm a little bit to ensure I got from getting 95% of the shots to 100% of the shots. Is this really a need though? Should I skip the opening ceremonies to do this?


Right because we should be teaching our students that not doing your absolute best is acceptable. If I am not 100% perfect all the time and I have students that want to work on the bot to get it to that point you can bet your mediocrity loving butt I say there's a need. I'm not going to let some talking head* get in the way of inspiration just so they can feel important. I'm going to be showing my students the value of passion.


* Talking heads that will always joke about how they couldn't do half of what these kids do. Because that's the lesson we want to show our students, that technical illiteracy is acceptable. That it's something to joke about.

[Taylor]

* Talking heads that will always joke about how they couldn't do half of what these kids do. Because that's the lesson we want to show our students, that technical illiteracy is acceptable. That it's something to joke about.
I've never seen any VIP laugh about illiteracy or 'ha ha dumb is cool' - I guess I missed the regional Jessica Simpson judged.
What I have seen is some very powerful people who give the clear message that the students in the stands have a clear advantage on the speakers themselves - access to an innovative and exciting program that can catapult any one of the kids higher than said speakers.
And I'd hate for some of my students to miss out on this potential inspiration because they were tightening a 10-32 bolt.

[Alpha Beta]

Don't make it a judgement call. Allow 3-4 members from every team to stay back and explicitly disallow power tools. Done.

I'm in for this really clear ruling.

I wouldn't mind a modification that the number of mentors can never exceed the number of students in a pit. I don't really care who is doing the work as long as students are present to be inspired by it.

[Andrew Schreiber]

I've never seen any VIP laugh about illiteracy or 'ha ha dumb is cool' - I guess I missed the regional Jessica Simpson judged.
What I have seen is some very powerful people who give the clear message that the students in the stands have a clear advantage on the speakers themselves - access to an innovative and exciting program that can catapult any one of the kids higher than said speakers.
And I'd hate for some of my students to miss out on this potential inspiration because they were tightening a 10-32 bolt.

Most of the time I see a politician at opening ceremonies there is a joke about "You kids are doing something I could never do" followed by some nervous laughter. But this could be a function of the majority of our political leaders have zero engineering background.


Course, I'm probably just too jaded by a decade of hearing politicians say how important education is and seeing school budgets continue to be slashed to the point of one teacher I know having to purchase furniture for their classroom out of their pocket.

[BrendanB]

I wouldn't mind a modification that the number of mentors can never exceed the number of students in a pit. I don't really care who is doing the work as long as students are present to be inspired by it.

I agree with the intent of coming up with rules like this however I would rather we leave who is in the pits as up to the teams and leave it as their own business.

[Karthik]

I've never seen any VIP laugh about illiteracy or 'ha ha dumb is cool' - I guess I missed the regional Jessica Simpson judged.

That's a pretty unnecessary ad hominem attack on someone you clearly know very little about (http://jezebel.com/5761237/jessica-simpson-is-not-an-idiot).

[Libby K]

Quietly working on the robot may not even be enough at a particular venue.

For example, during alliance selections at MAR champs this year (yes, I know, not a pits-closed time, but bear with me here) a team was working in their pit was right next to the field. Even just the talking and use of some tools, coupled with the mediocre acoustics in that gym, made it near impossible to hear the picking until someone asked the team to stop until the ceremonies were over.

In some events it's just not realistic to say people can work, because it creates an acoustics problem. At the other events, it just comes down to basic respect for the people helping make your event happen. (At some MAR events, people talk -in the stands!- through opening ceremonies. Don't even get me STARTED on that level of disrespect.)

Don't make it a judgement call. Allow 3-4 members from every team to stay back and explicitly disallow power tools. Done.

I do like this. Set a hard limit on number of people to stay back, but in that same rule remind the teams that the purpose of the rule is to be respectful to the guests and to the ceremony. That way, the team can make their own call - do we NEED those 3-4 people in the pit, or can we all sit in the stands and show our respect to the event & its speakers as an entire team?

This is just like that cell-phones-during-speeches thread many years ago, and the airplanes one last year. It's down to the teams to make sure we're creating a culture for ourselves where disrespect for FIRST/speakers/the event is not tolerated.

Most of the time I see a politician at opening ceremonies there is a joke about "You kids are doing something I could never do" followed by some nervous laughter. But this could be a function of the majority of our political leaders have zero engineering background.

I've seen the same kind of statement from Rush Holt at NJ events - and he's a rocket scientist. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_D._Holt,_Jr.) It's more about 'Wow, you guys are insanely smart, and I wish I'd had the opportunity to learn all this when I was your age.'

I've never seen any VIP laugh about illiteracy or 'ha ha dumb is cool' - I guess I missed the regional Jessica Simpson judged.


I understand your sentiment here, but keep in mind Jessica Simpson is actually an incredibly successful businesswoman. One remark about Chicken of the Sea does not (and should not) define her.

[Andrew Schreiber]

I've seen the same kind of statement from Rush Holt at NJ events - and he's a rocket scientist. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_D._Holt,_Jr.) It's more about 'Wow, you guys are insanely smart, and I wish I'd had the opportunity to learn all this when I was your age.'


That's a VERY different statement and not at all like the statements I'm referring to. These aren't "I wish I had this chance when I was your age" they are literally "You guys are so smart, I could NEVER do this". To me it's the same as saying, "I'm bad at math". The statement, "I can't read" would be ridiculed. But somehow it's acceptable to be unable to do math? They are both VITAL life skills. And it bothers me to hear folks who seem to think it's acceptable wave it about like some sort of badge of honor.

[Libby K]

That's a VERY different statement and not at all like the statements I'm referring to. These aren't "I wish I had this chance when I was your age" they are literally "You guys are so smart, I could NEVER do this". To me it's the same as saying, "I'm bad at math". The statement, "I can't read" would be ridiculed. But somehow it's acceptable to be unable to do math? They are both VITAL life skills. And it bothers me to hear folks who seem to think it's acceptable wave it about like some sort of badge of honor.

Oh, totally agree there!

All I meant was, sometimes the intent vs what they actually end up saying gets crossed. I've heard Rush Holt get up at a regional and say "I could never do this", but he (obviously) could with his background.

[Bryan Herbst]

Right because we should be teaching our students that not doing your absolute best is acceptable. If I am not 100% perfect all the time and I have students that want to work on the bot to get it to that point you can bet your mediocrity loving butt I say there's a need. I'm not going to let some talking head* get in the way of inspiration just so they can feel important. I'm going to be showing my students the value of passion.

This is more or less my point- every team has something they can be doing to make their robot better, and I am all in favor of making robots better. What I take issue with is saying that only teams with a real need can stay back and leaving that "need" decision up to the team.

That being said, I also don't think that the ever present room for improvement is a valid argument for letting everyone stay in the pits during opening ceremonies. That half hour shouldn't make a huge difference in how inspired or accomplished the students are. I also hope that one day the opening ceremonies can be just as inspiring as a half hour in the pits (and some of the championship ceremonies already are).

[Oblarg]

Right because we should be teaching our students that not doing your absolute best is acceptable.

In some contexts, this is absolutely true and it is a lesson we need to teach our students (and sometimes ourselves).

"Perfection at any cost" is not a good universal plan. Unfortunately, in the real world we function under real constraints and real opportunity-cost. Everything is a cost-benefit analysis. There is a cost to staying in the pits during opening ceremonies. There is also a benefit. The question is not one of wonky heuristic high-order principles like whether or not you "need" to improve your robot, it is purely a utility calculus based on the facts of the situation.

I think you do your students a disservice if you neglect this. Hell, it's not only the students - mentor burnout is a real problem in FRC, and one of the big driving factors is that people feel the need to put absolutely everything into it with no mind for the costs. You should always mind the costs.

Moreover, however you feel on the matter, I don't think it's fair or productive to dismiss the speakers FRC provides at competition as "talking heads promoting technical illiteracy." That's not at all the vibe I get from most of the speakers I've heard. Additionally, it seems clear to me that not everyone is good at math, and not everyone can be good at math. We gain nothing as a society by ostracizing the people who do not have mathematical talent - we should certainly strive to increase mathematical literacy, but it is a fiction to imagine that everyone can flourish in a technical field. FIRST is about inspiration and recognition. One does not have to be an engineer to be inspired by and to recognize the value of engineering, and I do not believe that the purpose of FIRST is to turn everyone into an engineer. The joke you mention, to my ears, is not glorifying those who lack ability, it's appreciating those who have it. That is what we should strive for, and it is a perfectly fine message.

[cadandcookies]

That's a pretty unnecessary ad hominem attack on someone you clearly know very little about (http://jezebel.com/5761237/jessica-simpson-is-not-an-idiot).

While I agree that the comment was a bit out of line, I'd take anything on Jezebel with a grain of salt. Also the linked article didn't seem like much of a rebuttal other than "well, she makes 750 million (which is certainly not a billion) a year on fashion so clearly she isn't THAT dumb."

Back to the main of the thread, I think Tom's suggestion is pretty solid-- with an accompanying warning that, hey, there are probably some pretty important people that want to talk to and congratulate you and it would be nice to show them some respect.

On related note, it would be really nice if politicians didn't send the exact same video to multiple regionals. Especially multiple years in a row.

[Jon Stratis]

On related note, it would be really nice if politicians didn't send the exact same video to multiple regionals. Especially multiple years in a row.

I probably know the politician you're referring to, and can probably quote along with the video by now, having seen it twice a year for a number of years... lets just say that regardless of party she wouldn't be getting my vote :p

[BBray_T1296]

Now we run into the issue of what constitutes a need to work on the robot. For some teams it is obvious- maybe their robot isn't moving. However, many teams also see other "needs." Maybe my robot is already the best robot at the regional, but I "need" to tweak the shooter arm a little bit to ensure I got from getting 95% of the shots to 100% of the shots. Is this really a need though? Should I skip the opening ceremonies to do this?

Making a subjective judgement like this cannot work, as it is not at all fair. Regardless of comparative performance, why is it acceptable that one robot is virtually forced to run at 95% while other robots get to run at 100%?

And I'd hate for some of my students to miss out on this potential inspiration because they were tightening a 10-32 bolt.

I would argue that the kids who feel the need to spend every last second getting their robot tweaked that last little bit are already pretty inspired. When you are as passionate as a lot of students in this organization are, there is little that anybody could say to make you more passionate than you are.

[waialua359]

Rules are rules.
Until Aren pointed out the rule from the manual, I was unaware you could still be in the pit.
After doing soo many different regionals and events, I have yet to attend one recently that had teams continue working in the pit during opening ceremonies.

Whatever FIRST allows, we will comply. However, given the chance to stay in the pits, most times I'd rather do that.
There is always something you can discuss/check/work on in the pits.:)

[scca229]

Regarding the "closing" of the pits during the ceremonies, I look at it not only as the aforementioned respect for the speakers and recipients, but also as a time for everyone to take a break from the robot itself and take in the atmosphere of how incredible it is what you are actually doing. You are competing with 140lb ROBOTS that YOU built! Take the 1/2 hour to clear the head, stop thrashing and enjoy the company of a few thousand of your peers that have a LOT in common with you. Make friends. You never know, some could become lifelong.

I am pursuing becoming an FTA not only because I enjoy the technology, atmosphere and inner workings of the events, but also due to the mantra that I have running through my head at every event that I have worked:
These kids shouldn't really have to know how hard it is to put an event on until after they are through their Participant phase and enter their Mentor phase (and hopefully Volunteer phase as well). They will find out soon enough.

I have been an FTAA 3 times (hopefully I can remove that last A next year) along with an event as an Inspector. Seeing the amount of dedication that the Volunteers (Key, Lead, Eye Protection Handout...take your pick) have for making the event go off is amazing. The planning for the next years event begins pretty much when the field is being packed up into the truck to head to the next venue (and sometimes even before that).

Think back to your events and try to remember when you didn't see the Key Volunteers either on-station or rushing around. They are pretty much on the job from a few hours before the venue opens each day through a few hours after Pits close trying to grab a bite to eat when they can (or being forced to eat by other Volunteers that notice you haven't eaten anything...Thanks Guys!). Sometimes the ceremonies are the only time certain Volunteer positions can realistically take a break.

I know that as FTAA during the Las Vegas Regional this year my Body Bug reported that I covered about 55 miles, about 95% of that in the space of the field and immediate surrounding, from Wednesday morning at field assembly through Saturday night when the back of the truck closed after packing the field into it. Some friends and family even mentioned not seeing me move that much, or that fast, in a long time when they were watching the streaming feed.

Working an event is easily the most exhausting thing I have ever done...and I love it and wouldn't miss it for the world. My wife has accepted the fact that she is now a Robotics Widow and that I am pretty much useless the day after an event wraps up.

See you from the other side of the glass in 2015! ::safety::

[AllenGregoryIV]

Whenever I am at event I try to remind people of the rule that allows people to stay in the pits. Rarely is this ever abused to have entire teams crowding in their pits. People making lots of noise and things can be asked politely to quite down and they have always complied in my experience.

I truly believe that this needs to be set one way or the other. No one should have to guess how much time they are going to have to make a repair or get some tasks accomplished. Either we allow a few team members in the pit and hold events to that or officially close the pits and make it illegal for teams to be doing work. I really don't like the latter because it would be harder for me to get teams inspected but if anyone is allowed to work, everyone should be allowed to work. Isn't the whole point of our current bag system an attempt to keep build time equal yet event volunteers are allowed to decide which teams get more time to work on their robot. Again I understand why we do this and most teams won't complain for giving teams that need it more time to get through inspection, but it just seems simple enough to me to allow all teams to continue to work and put the best product on the field possible. Again within a reasonable limit.

[EricH]

A proposal:

The rule should be amended to clarify, something on the order of:

"[TXYZ] During opening and closing ceremonies, teams may work on their robots, with the following restrictions:
--No more than 6 team members in the pit.
--No use of power tools.
--Other noisy operations to be kept to a minimum--this potentially includes but is not limited to robot operations and hand sawing.

In the event that a team does not follow the above restrictions, event staff may request that the entire team leave the pit area.

Teams are encouraged to have their entire team attend the ceremonies as a team if at all possible.

[TABC] TXYZ may be suspended for an event if the Regional Director, FTA, and other staff as appropriate determine that having teams working will provide a distraction from the ceremonies at a certain venue. If this determination is reached, all teams must be out of the pit during ceremonies. In the interest of fairness, all teams must be informed of the restriction as soon as possible. Teams that have yet to pass inspection and have a match within the first ten matches of competition may apply through the Lead Inspector to work in or near the machine shop or other out-of-pit location for the duration of the ceremonies, under the restrictions outlined in TXYZ."


The trick with the second part is that it allows teams that really need to work a chance to try to get some working time, but they have to find a place that won't disturb the ceremonies. If you're "I have to get this automode fine-tuned right now" then you probably won't be given clearance--but you can also make arrangements to not go very far and be back quickly (and there's a chance of not being allowed to do that in the first place, as that could involve running a robot, which is a potentially forbidden activity).

[RunawayEngineer]

Right because we should be teaching our students that not doing your absolute best is acceptable. If I am not 100% perfect all the time and I have students that want to work on the bot to get it to that point you can bet your mediocrity loving butt I say there's a need. I'm not going to let some talking head* get in the way of inspiration just so they can feel important. I'm going to be showing my students the value of passion.


* Talking heads that will always joke about how they couldn't do half of what these kids do. Because that's the lesson we want to show our students, that technical illiteracy is acceptable. That it's something to joke about.

Technical illiteracy is totally acceptable. There are thousands of ways to contribute to society without knowing anything about engineering.
I think that you are reading far into offhand remarks to interpret them to be discouraging people from pursuing technical interests because technical acuity is something you are born with or not. If their field isn't technical or educational, then they can't be blamed for making a comment that happens to have a common misconception underlying it.

Second, working on the robot in and of itself is not inspiration. People don't go to the opening ceremony because they are lazy or less passionate. They go because they see the bigger picture. Students are taught throughout the season about working hard to succeed - the ceremonies are one of the only chances that they get to see the bigger picture: communities, politicians, organizations, donors, volunteers, etc coming together around a common goal that has nothing to do with how well the individual robot performs.

[pyroslev]

*Back to the Orgininal Thread Topic for this post*
Past two years, we've established a Tech Support Group in conjunction with the CSA and FTA staff. We aim to provide enough people to help with the basics.

At the close of the pits on the first day, we evaluate what teams are in need based on NI Parkway, Lead Robot Inspectors notes, general observations and requests. Any teams lacking inspection will have priority on being allowed to work usually have someone from out Support Group.

Here's the list of rules/guidelines go by:

Usually teams that are lacking inspection are allowed. Then the LRI or some RI is around.
Teams in the first few matches lacking BASIC functionality are allowed as well. The keyword is BASIC functionality. If the robot can drive, then they have no need to work in the pits.
Another rule is the bare minimum of persons required.
No power tools as a rule of thumb.
Lastly, they must have someone from our group working with them or present as a Gracious Professional. This will also allow us to get the team in the Queue Line or even on the field ASAP. It'll also allow us to enforce the no power tools rule.


All this will depend on your event's staff and coordination. If there is the NEED to work on the robot, then consult with the CSA. They can evaluate your situation. Then if needed, they can elevate it so you might be able to work quietly during the ceremonies.

Usually this is only for the first day of actual competition BUT in rare situations we have let teams work during the second opening ceremonies. But all the same rules apply.

*Return to the thread in the thread*

[jvriezen]

I don't see where in the rules it states that the pits MUST be open during ceremonies. The pit hours are not stated in the rules. The volunteers running the event determine the pit hours. Yes, if the pits do happen to be open during ceremonies, there are rules regarding tool noise and national anthems. But the rules also strongly encourage teams to attend the ceremonies, for very good reasons.

If a volunteer states that the pit is closed and instructs you to leave, then you need to respect that decision of the regional/district leadership. You may not agree, and you may state your position and appeal to a higher authority, but at that point in time, if Pit Admin or an inspector or other volunteer announces the pits are closed, then the pits are closed-- respect that.

I do agree that the rules could provide more guidance here -- I would prefer it says that any team who has not passed inspection may have some number of people in their pit during ceremonies (people from any team working on the non-passing bot), and that its up to the discretion of regional leadership regarding whether the pits are closed to others, or open to a limited number per team.

Students on a team with an inspected robot will have the best experience by participating in the opening ceremonies -- they will have plenty of robot/pit time during the regional. Students with bots not passing inspection will have the best experience by having a few miss the ceremonies but not miss their first one or two matches.

If the rules stay as they are now, then the pits are closed if event leadership says they are closed. If you would like them open during ceremonies, then, when you are eligible, start volunteering until you are chosen as a lead volunteer in a position to decide the pits are open during ceremonies-- and explain your decision to the volunteers that are on your crew that have to stay in the pits and have less 'down' time.

[Brandon Holley]

I don't see where in the rules it states that the pits MUST be open during ceremonies. The PIT hours are not stated in the rules. The volunteers running the event determine the PIT hours. Yes, if the pits do happen to be open during ceremonies, there are rules regarding tool noise and national anthems. But the rules also strongly encourage teams to attend the ceremonies, for very good reasons.

If a volunteer states that the pit is closed and instructs you to leave, then you need to respect that decision of the regional/district leadership. You may not agree, and you may state your position and appeal to a higher authority, but at that point in time, if Pit Admin or an inspector or other volunteer announces the pits are closed, then the pits are closed-- respect that.

Obviously this is my opinion, but I really feel like we're stretching to say that the rule outlined in the rule book is there 'just in case' the pits are open. The volunteers running the event SHOULD NOT determine pit hours. It should be the same everywhere.

To counter your second point, the reason anyone would even disagree with the pits being closed to begin with is because there is not a clear expectation for the team event to event. If the rules were the same everywhere, there would be much less disagreement.

Need of working time should not be determined by volunteers, period. Its a slippery slope and it counters the idea of everyone working on their robots for the same period of time (even if it's 'only half an hour').

-Brando

[jvriezen]

The volunteers running the event SHOULD NOT determine pit hours. It should be the same everywhere. ... If the rules were the same everywhere, there would be much less disagreement.

Whether it should be the same everywhere or not is a separate issue-- it currently is not. Currently, lead volunteers do determine pit hours, because they are not specified in the rules. They also determine team pit size, rules about bringing in outside food (often venue enforced), how far in advance to call teams for queuing (pulling them from the pit), quantity/size/quality/hours of practice field, etc. There are lots of things that differ from event to event.

Need of working time should not be determined by volunteers, period.
The inspection team does determine that a robot needs working time when it hasn't passed inspection. That was the only 'exception' I suggested to otherwise equal pit time for all teams at the event.

My main objection is the notion that it is ok to defy the event volunteers when they say the pit is closed due to your interpretation of the rules, which I've noted is not the only possible interpretation. You can politely try to convince them it should not be because the rules may seem to indicate so, but if they don't agree, then the pits are indeed closed. Your interpretation of the rules is not the one that really matters here. Defying the lead volunteer and insisting on staying in the pit is not gracious professionalism.

I'd suggest that at your next event, you find the decision maker volunteer well in advance of ceremonies, plead your case with rules in hand, and then accept the decision made and optionally express your concerns with the appropriate higher level authority if you disagree.

[Brandon Holley]

The inspection team does determine that a robot needs working time when it hasn't passed inspection. That was the only 'exception' I suggested to otherwise equal pit time for all teams at the event.

My main objection is the notion that it is ok to defy the event volunteers when they say the pit is closed due to your interpretation of the rules, which I've noted is not the only possible interpretation. You can politely try to convince them it should not be because the rules may seem to indicate so, but if they don't agree, then the pits are indeed closed. Your interpretation of the rules is not the one that really matters here. Defying the lead volunteer and insisting on staying in the pit is not gracious professionalism.

I'd suggest that at your next event, you find the decision maker volunteer well in advance of ceremonies, plead your case with rules in hand, and then accept the decision made and optionally express your concerns with the appropriate higher level authority if you disagree.

I'm sorry but I just want to be sure you aren't interpreting what I said as 'defying event volunteers' because no where in any of my responses have I made any inclination to do so. I think you are greatly misinterpreting my disagreement with how rules are enforced/made-up/differ event to event as some indication that I stage a sit-in during opening ceremonies. How does the system improve if we don't identify and fix flaws?

It really should not have to come to hunting down event chairs (which I myself am one of) who are busy dealing with many logistics to interpret a rule. I just don't see why this needs to be undefined and left up to each event.

-Brando

[AllenGregoryIV]

Whether it should be the same everywhere or not is a separate issue-- it currently is not. Currently, lead volunteers do determine pit hours, because they are not specified in the rules. They also determine team pit size, rules about bringing in outside food (often venue enforced), how far in advance to call teams for queuing (pulling them from the pit), quantity/size/quality/hours of practice field, etc. There are lots of things that differ from event to event.


The inspection team does determine that a robot needs working time when it hasn't passed inspection. That was the only 'exception' I suggested to otherwise equal pit time for all teams at the event.

My main objection is the notion that it is ok to defy the event volunteers when they say the pit is closed due to your interpretation of the rules, which I've noted is not the only possible interpretation. You can politely try to convince them it should not be because the rules may seem to indicate so, but if they don't agree, then the pits are indeed closed. Your interpretation of the rules is not the one that really matters here. Defying the lead volunteer and insisting on staying in the pit is not gracious professionalism.

I'd suggest that at your next event, you find the decision maker volunteer well in advance of ceremonies, plead your case with rules in hand, and then accept the decision made and optionally express your concerns with the appropriate higher level authority if you disagree.

I'm not sure if you meant your remarks to be hostel, but unless you have personally seen Brandon defying a lead volunteer you may want to be very careful with the way you word your statements. Brandon in fact does run events as he has stated in this thread and I don't believe I have actually met him but from everything I have seen on these forms and heard he is pretty good model of gracious professionalism. His statements never said anything about people defying volunteers, he was just suggesting a rule change like many have done this thread. The goal should always be improvement of the system.

[Alan Anderson]

I'm sorry but I just want to be sure you aren't interpreting what I said as 'defying event volunteers' because no where in any of my responses have I made any inclination to do so.

You said, "Need of working time should not be determined by volunteers, period." If that wasn't intended to imply disregarding a volunteer when he or she tells you to stop working on the robot and leave the pit for opening ceremonies, you might want to rephrase it.

[MARS_James]

So I sent an email request to Frank via FRC questions here is the initial email and response:

I am James Comstock of FRC Team 179 The Children of The Swamp

After a very debated discussion on chiefdelphi I was wondering if we could get some clarification about pit work during ceremonies. The FRC Manual has a statement about not making noise and that it is highly encouraged to attend said ceremonies but it seems to be debated whether that means if you NEED to do work (You have an early match the next day, or need to pass inspection) you can stay or if it is just if you WANT to do work (trying to get the bugs out of a more complex autonomous, or general robot maintenance) you can stay.

Clarification from headquarters would help standardize this across competitions and help relieve potential tension between volunteers and teams as we would have a clear precedent.

Thanks,

James Comstock

Hi James,

Frank here. This is more of a rules question, as it relates directly to section 4.9 of the Admin Manual (at least that was the section in last year’s manual). It’s a good question, but I suggest you ask it through the official Q&A channel when it opens shortly after kickoff. You’ll be able to find info on the Q&A system here: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/game-q-and-a


Thanks!

Frank

So for now we know what we can do which is nothing until the q&a opens

[Kevin Sheridan]

You said, "Need of working time should not be determined by volunteers, period." If that wasn't intended to imply disregarding a volunteer when he or she tells you to stop working on the robot and leave the pit for opening ceremonies, you might want to rephrase it.

I dont think Brandon's post implies that at all. It seems everyone in the thread is agreement that teams who need the time to work on their robot (to pass inspection, etc.) should be allowed to work on their robot during opening ceremonies. The disagreement is who decides that if the work the team is doing is a "need" or just a "want." I agree with Brandon that a volunteer has no place in telling a team that the work they are doing is not needed. Its just silly to put that decision in the hands of volunteers at every event. Brandon is advocating a better rule set so volunteers would not even be making a judgement that could be defied since the rules would be clearly defined.

[jvriezen]

I in no way intended to be hostile toward anyone here, and I apologize that it came across that way. My objection was not to Brandon specifically. Looking back at the prior posts, it was this statement that lead to my comment:

Whenever I am at event I try to remind people [emphasis added, see below] of the rule that allows people to stay in the pits.

As I've stated, there is no 'rule' that allows people to stay in the pits during ceremonies in the event that the pits happen to be closed during the ceremonies, which from actual practice and lack of rule specifics about when the pit must be 'open' seems to be up to the discretion of the event leadership.

I guess the 'people' in the above quote may be misinterpreted... Perhaps the 'people' meant to refer to those who try to close the pits (pit admin, etc.) I initially interpreted it to mean anyone and everyone (students and mentors of other teams) and encouraging them to stay in the pit during ceremonies if they wished in defiance of leadership declaring the pits closed. Again, I apologize for the confusion.

[AdamHeard]

I in no way intended to be hostile toward anyone here, and I apologize that it came across that way. My objection was not to Brandon specifically. Looking back at the prior posts, it was this statement that lead to my comment:



As I've stated, there is no 'rule' that allows people to stay in the pits during ceremonies in the event that the pits happen to be closed during the ceremonies, which from actual practice and lack of rule specifics about when the pit must be 'open' seems to be up to the discretion of the event leadership.

I guess the 'people' in the above quote may be misinterpreted... Perhaps the 'people' meant to refer to those who try to close the pits (pit admin, etc.) I initially interpreted it to mean anyone and everyone (students and mentors of other teams) and encouraging them to stay in the pit during ceremonies if they wished in defiance of leadership declaring the pits closed. Again, I apologize for the confusion.

The bummer is when the official event schedule doesn't list the pits as closed, but teams are ushered out of the pits during that time.

In that case you have a rule (in the manual), and an official document from the event itself that combined make it clear, 1) The pits aren't closed, and 2) They are allowed to stay, since they aren't closed.

buuuuuuuut... then on short notice teams are told to leave the pits.

I've whined about this for years, I will be more proactive this season. For the events we register at (and any others I volunteer at), I'll bring this issue up with the RD ahead of time, and we'll go with whatever is decided and clarified obviously.

[jvriezen]

and we'll go with whatever i decided and clarified obviously.

Unfortunate typo there... I assume you meant 'is' not 'i' :)

[Ian Curtis]

So I sent an email request to Frank via FRC questions here is the initial email and response:





So for now we know what we can do which is nothing until the q&a opens
I am also curious as to how individual events and regions can change this rule. I was told at our events that the PNW region has our own rule that no one is allowed to be in the pits during opening ceremonies. I assume FIRST signed off on this as part of the transition to districts, and I'd like to see where these supplemental district specific rules are listed and which rules the regions are allowed to modify. Is all of "At The Events" allowed to be superseded?

[Andrew Schreiber]

Technical illiteracy is totally acceptable. There are thousands of ways to contribute to society without knowing anything about engineering.


No, it's not. Not any more than general illiteracy. We live in a world dominated by technology and mathematics. How can someone function if they don't know that 30% of 50 is less than 30% of 60? Or basic logic? (If a and b both have to be true for c to be true and c is true... what can we tell about a and b?) This isn't rocket science, it's basic life skills. And yet I see folks fail abysmally at them all the time. And jokes like that "off the cuff" remark just reinforce the idea that it's acceptable.

We don't tolerate a world in which someone not knowing how to read is acceptable, nor should you tolerate one in which people don't know basic logic or mathematics. It's not about contributing to society, it's about functioning in it.

[XaulZan11]

No, it's not. Not any more than general illiteracy. We live in a world dominated by technology and mathematics. How can someone function if they don't know that 30% of 50 is less than 30% of 60? Or basic logic? (If a and b both have to be true for c to be true and c is true... what can we tell about a and b?) This isn't rocket science, it's basic life skills. And yet I see folks fail abysmally at them all the time. And jokes like that "off the cuff" remark just reinforce the idea that it's acceptable.

We don't tolerate a world in which someone not knowing how to read is acceptable, nor should you tolerate one in which people don't know basic logic or mathematics. It's not about contributing to society, it's about functioning in it.

I think most people think there is a distinction between 'basic logic and math' and 'engineering and the ability to build a 120 pound working robot'.

[Andrew Schreiber]

I think most people think there is a distinction between 'basic logic and math' and 'engineering and the ability to build a 120 pound working robot'.

I think most people recognize that the phrase 'technical illiteracy' doesn't mean 'can't build a 120 pound working robot'.

[XaulZan11]

I think most people recognize that the phrase 'technical illiteracy' doesn't mean 'can't build a 120 pound working robot'.

Yes, I agree. Then the speakers who say they can't do what we do (aka build 120 pound working robots) isn't a comment about technical illiteracy.

[Oblarg]

No, it's not. Not any more than general illiteracy. We live in a world dominated by technology and mathematics. How can someone function if they don't know that 30% of 50 is less than 30% of 60? Or basic logic? (If a and b both have to be true for c to be true and c is true... what can we tell about a and b?) This isn't rocket science, it's basic life skills. And yet I see folks fail abysmally at them all the time. And jokes like that "off the cuff" remark just reinforce the idea that it's acceptable.

We don't tolerate a world in which someone not knowing how to read is acceptable, nor should you tolerate one in which people don't know basic logic or mathematics. It's not about contributing to society, it's about functioning in it.

This is a faulty comparison.

Pretty much everyone has the ability to learn to read.

Not everyone has the ability to be an engineer.

It is not at all unacceptable for someone to admit that they do not have the capacity to design and build a robot, because not everyone can. That technical fields are integral to modern society is completely irrelevant to this.

Note that this is not a speaker saying that people should not learn basic arithmetic. This is a speaker saying that he is impressed with students completing specialized, complex technical tasks that he cannot. There is no shame in that, and it is not perpetuating a culture of unacceptable ignorance.

[stufflikethat]

Back to the main of the thread, I think Tom's suggestion is pretty solid-- with an accompanying warning that, hey, there are probably some pretty important people that want to talk to and congratulate you and it would be nice to show them some respect.


I see your point here about being respectful, but in all fairness what makes these people's 30 minutes any more important than mine or anyone else's. To them its just a speech at a cool robotics event, to my team its 6 weeks of hard work and our chance to attend champs. If "important" people want to come speak at events during ceremonies that is all good, but personally I have heard the opening ceremony speech too many times. Sometimes at an event I would rather work on our team's robot or help a struggling team, while other times I'll be lucky enough to have the luxury to listen to the speaker and simply relax.

In all until the rule states EVERYBODY must leave the pits people should be allowed to respectfully use them in a quiet fashion that is not distracting.

[E Dawg]

I see your point here about being respectful, but in all fairness what makes these people's 30 minutes any more important than mine or anyone else's.

Absolutely nothing. That's why we should go to the opening ceremonies. It means that we're saying "Hey, even though I might have better things to do, I am willing to take time out of my busy schedule to come and listen to you." It shows humility as well as respect.

[jvriezen]

Absolutely nothing. That's why we should go to the opening ceremonies. It means that we're saying "Hey, even though I might have better things to do, I am willing to take time out of my busy schedule to come and listen to you." It shows humility as well as respect.

Somewhat agree.. most often you do not have 'better things' to do. The speakers and those introduced usually fall into one or more of the following categories, which should be very compelling reasons to attend and be the better thing you have to do:

1) They (or employees of their company that are allowed time off for FIRST) have volunteered a lot of time to make FIRST and/or the event a reality. You owe them the benefit of your presence and applause as a sign of gratitude and to encourage them to continue their generous support.
2) They have donated a lot of money to make FIRST and/or the event a reality. You owe them the benefit of your presence as a sign of gratitude and to encourage them to continue their generous support.
3) They are influential people (usually politicians) and ...

For that reason, FIRST needs you to
Inspire them and help them
Recognize the value of
Science and
Technology

so that the goals of FIRST are better achieved.

Most of the the people speaking or being introduced (Judges, Refs) have made huge personal sacrifices to give you the FIRST experience. Can you sacrifice a half hour of bot time to give them some thanks by your presence and applause?

[Andrew Schreiber]

This is a faulty comparison.

Pretty much everyone has the ability to learn to read.

Not everyone has the ability to be an engineer.

It is not at all unacceptable for someone to admit that they do not have the capacity to design and build a robot, because not everyone can. That technical fields are integral to modern society is completely irrelevant to this.

Note that this is not a speaker saying that people should not learn basic arithmetic. This is a speaker saying that he is impressed with students completing specialized, complex technical tasks that he cannot. There is no shame in that, and it is not perpetuating a culture of unacceptable ignorance.

Based on the responses I continue to get in this thread, not everyone has the capacity to learn to read.

[Oblarg]

Based on the responses I continue to get in this thread, not everyone has the capacity to learn to read.

Or perhaps you're not particularly clear in your writing?

You could lose the snark. It's not pleasant.

[Libby K]

I see your point here about being respectful, but in all fairness what makes these people's 30 minutes any more important than mine or anyone else's. To them its just a speech at a cool robotics event, to my team its 6 weeks of hard work and our chance to attend champs. If "important" people want to come speak at events during ceremonies that is all good, but personally I have heard the opening ceremony speech too many times.

This is just like that 'why does Einstein have to face the VIP box' thread about Championship.

What makes their time worth your attention is that they've contributed support, in any number of ways, to help make FIRST happen in your region (or on a global scale, in the case of someone like Dean or Woodie). If they're important enough to warrant speeches, then they're there to help bring attention to the event you're at. How exactly is that not "important"?

These people you don't think are important, just because they're not on a team themselves, may have spent just as much time and effort on FIRST as you have in other ways. And their effort is just as important as yours. It's up to you to recognize that and respect them with your time and attention, just as they're respecting you and your efforts with their attendance.

You can put your power tools down for 20 minutes to give these people some respect. Send all-or-most of your team to the stands to respect FIRST's invited guests, and if you really feel like you need 3 or 4 people in the pit, make sure they know to keep it down.

How is that so hard?

[Tom Bottiglieri]

You can put your power tools down for 20 minutes to give these people some respect. Send all-or-most of your team to the stands to respect FIRST's invited guests, and if you really feel like you need 3 or 4 people in the pit, make sure they know to keep it down.

How is that so hard?
It's not. Your response seems, you know, totally reasonable.

[Dillon Carey]

You can put your power tools down for 20 minutes to give these people some respect. Send all-or-most of your team to the stands to respect FIRST's invited guests, and if you really feel like you need 3 or 4 people in the pit, make sure they know to keep it down.

How is that so hard?

I am going to restate that this is a very reasonable way to deal with the situation. The way the rules are currently stated outline this, however they could be clarified.

To address all the people that seem to think that everyone should be forced out of the pit because that last 20-30 min isn't necessary, you're wrong. In some cases everything just works and you can attend the ceremony, but in my experience, there is nearly ALWAYS something that isn't working right.

People have said that tweaking these little things aren't worth missing out on the ceremony. I'm sorry, but some of these kids have put an enormous amount of effort into their robots. They have spent 6+ weeks pouring all of their spare time into trying to make the best robot they can, and even with all of that time, many teams can't quite get it all done.

I was forced out of the pits when I was a student, even after showing the rules which stated I could stay, and it was very frustrating. Sometimes the all of the effort you put into your bot comes down to that last 20 minutes. As long as the rules state (very clearly in my opinion) that it is allowed to work in the pits I will argue this with any volunteer that states otherwise.

I don't want to see a kids entire competition ruined because they were forced out of the pit.

[waialua359]

Hopefully Frank could address this with all of the RD's of various events and have this ironed out.
Its great that this issue has been pointed out, and based on the responses on this thread, a decision needs to be made, clarified and uniformly addressed at all regionals since there are varying opinions and interpretations on the matter.

One of the most frustrating things in general to deal with are varying interpretations of rules that are applied/not applied from one event to another.

[EricH]

Or perhaps you're not particularly clear in your writing?

I can understand him clearly. And I'm not exactly reading, I'm skimming the post.

There is a difference between reading and understanding/critical reading. If you can read, you can see these words on the page and know that they represent some thought. If you're actually understanding, or reading critically, you see the words, understand what the thought means, maybe pick up some context, and generally get a much better picture of what someone is trying to say.

As an example:
If I say "Shop skills are more important than engineering", I'm sure some folks will jump all over me about that one, something along the lines of how those "are engineering" or some such line of thought (or the other one, "just build it, the engineer knows best"). But, to put some context in that, I hold an engineering degree and work as a technician. And sometimes I go "I'd just LOVE to get the engineer who designed THAT down here and have HIM try to build it." And if you think about it, how is that engineer's design going to get built without some shop skill? Hmm?

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Without being judgmental here I would like to relate some observations from an LRI view about work required during opening ceremonies.
1. Only about one or two teams at any event are so far behind that spending the time during opening ceremonies on Friday (first day of competition) would help.
2. Of those teams that need the time, the LRI is fully aware of the needs of the team and the event schedule as it applies to that team.
3. Rarely will more than one or two team members and a single mentor will be effective in this period. The rest cannot get close to the robot or are working on non-essential items.
4. Often (almost always) the LRI and/or RI will be in the pit supervising and assisting and therefore miss the opening ceremonies.
5. The team that needs assistance usually is behind due to school travel rules, lack of mentorship or failure to understand all of the applicable rules. (overall size is historically the biggest issue requiring work)
6. There is no better inspiration at the event for the entire team than to participate as a team especially if they are being called out for being the team that has traveled the furthest, is the only rep from their state at the event, is the rookie or oldest veteran, etc.

For those that see no value in politicians or other high ranking guests getting a good reception from a large crowd I have an interesting tale. The Midwest Regional specifically moved to a Chicago site in order to attract important political and educational representatives to the event. Specifically targeted was the mayor of Chicago, Rich Daley. It took several years and then the mayor's office only promised a 15 minute appearance and a short speech at opening ceremonies. Well the reception he received made him decide to suspend other appearances and walk the pits. His 15 minutes turned into several hours. And I can tell you that many a Chicago Public School student was flattered and shocked to be talking with the mayor of the third largest city in the US on a personal basis. That is some inspiration those students will rarely get.

[kmusa]

Without being judgmental here I would like to relate some observations from an LRI view about work required during opening ceremonies.
1. Only about one or two teams at any event are so far behind that spending the time during opening ceremonies on Friday (first day of competition) would help.
:
And I can tell you that many a Chicago Public School student was flattered and shocked to be talking with the mayor of the third largest city in the US on a personal basis. That is some inspiration those students will rarely get.

Al:

Well said. I'm glad that accommodations have been made for the extreme cases.

I can't recall a regional that I've attended, that the Pits haven't been closed during the various ceremonies, and I don't have a problem with that.

Though I will say that some administrative common sense would have been useful at last spring's FLR, when the combination of schedule delays and replays had Team 20 playing 3 consecutive matches (if memory serves) Saturday morning.

-Karlis