[FRC Blog] Kit Hints?

[Hallry]

Posted on the FRC Blog (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog), 12/10/14: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-kit-hints

Kit Hints?

Blog Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 - 08:56

A message from our Kit of Parts team:

We’re in full swing preparing for Kickoff, not sure if you heard, but its 24 days away.

Kickoff Kits start leaving the warehouse in New Hampshire today! We want to make sure you have the information you need to get your Kickoff Kit home safely. The Kit of Parts homepage (http://www.usfirst.org/frc/kitofparts) has been updated with sizes and weights of various components of the Kickoff Kit that you can expect to have to pack up and take back to your build space. We recommend you leave the Vespa at home.

We’ve also updated the Kit of Parts homepage with a link to information about the difference between what veteran and rookie teams will receive and a link to information about inventorying your Kickoff Kit and the process for reporting missing or damaged components.

[Orion.DeYoe]

What could collectively be 3x3x60?
I also notice that the drive train box seems to be the same size as last year.

[AlexC]

What could collectively be 3x3x60?


Game piece perhaps?

FRC 2014 Just Joust!

[BrendanB]

Game piece perhaps?

FRC 2014 Just Joust!

That name can work as a substitute for Aerial Assist too.

[notmattlythgoe]

Game piece perhaps?

FRC 2014 Just Joust!

I've been thinking for years what kind of game they could do with rods, maybe this is the year I find out.

[AlexC]

That name can work as a substitute for Aerial Assist too.

Hahaha too true, too true.

[Steven Donow]

Clearly it's a box of CIMs lined up in a terribly inefficient way. The weight is just a typo.

[jvriezen]

My guess for 3x3 is 'must use' bumper fabric. Would add to asthetics of matches and prevent fabric selection for advantage.

29x22x22 is two or more game pieces?

[notmattlythgoe]

My guess for 3x3 is 'must use' bumper fabric. Would add to asthetics of matches and prevent fabric selection for advantage.

29x22x22 is two or more game pieces?

Bumper fabric that is 5' long?

[audietron]

My guess for 3x3 is 'must use' bumper fabric. Would add to asthetics of matches and prevent fabric selection for advantage.

29x22x22 is two or more game pieces?

I doubt they would not tell us about a change like this until kickoff since we are allowed to buy the fabric in advanced.

[BigJ]

I doubt they would not tell us about a change like this until kickoff since we are allowed to buy the fabric in advanced.

You're allowed to buy a lot of stuff in advance that might not be legal next year.

Like wheels.

[Whippet]

6 lbs? So this thing is .1 pound per inch of length?

[Whippet]

Like wheels.

I hope we'll still be able to buy wheels. It would be a pretty terrible game if we had special FIRST-mandated wheels as a central element to gameplay. Good thing it hasn't happened yet...

[audietron]

You're allowed to buy a lot of stuff in advance that might not be legal next year.

Like wheels.

Agreed. I retract my last statement.

[Kimmeh]

I hope we'll still be able to buy wheels. It would be a pretty terrible game if we had special FIRST-mandated wheels as a central element to gameplay. Good thing it hasn't happened yet...

If that happened we'd never hear the end of it. People would still be complaining about it, 5 years later...

[Richard Wallace]

What could collectively be 3x3x60?
Twenty wiffleballs?

[jvriezen]

Bumper fabric that is 5' long?

60" is a standard fabric bolt width. The other dimension will be the bumper length you are expecting. No box. Kickoff teams seeing the kit early will know. But it is not much of an advantage. Or maybe 54" in a box. Thats another std width.

I'm guessing bumper numbers will be provided and mandatory also. This removes inspector headaches and makes sure all teams' numbers are visible.

[catacon]

My prediction: two-wheeled jousting robots. :D

[notmattlythgoe]

60" is a standard fabric bolt width. The other dimension will be the bumper length you are expecting. No box. Kickoff teams seeing the kit early will know. But it is not much of an advantage.

I'm guessing bumper numbers will be provided and mandatory also. This removes inspector headaches and makes sure all teams' numbers are visible.

I doubt it would need to be packaged in a tube though, I'd imagine it would be much cheaper to fold it and put it in a tote.

[Boe]

I'm guessing bumper numbers will be provided and mandatory also. This removes inspector headaches and makes sure all teams' numbers are visible.

I really hope this doesnt happen (https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/46194_719673391400787_267911721_n.jpg?oh=53b277284 46fb8a40b2ec16a9d2160dc&oe=550287B1)

[Munchskull]

Maybe the 3×3×60 object is an extremely tall bowling pin.

[billbo911]

It is a Game piece. A Hockey Goal!!

Regolith is making a come back!!!

[jvriezen]

Bumper fabric that is 5' long?

I doubt it would need to be packaged in a tube though, I'd imagine it would be much cheaper to fold it and put it in a tote.

Why? It is manufactured on a roll, and the human labor to fold thousands of pieces is not trivial or cheap. With appropriate devices pieces can be cut and rolled very quickly.

[notmattlythgoe]

Why? It is manufactured on a roll, and the human labor to fold thousands of pieces is not trivial or cheap. With appropriate devices pieces can be cut and rolled very quickly.

But its not manufactured on a roll for each team for the amount we'd be receiving. It would have been cut from rolls of fabric.

[audietron]

It's a box full of pvc tubing to make some sort of pyramid. right?

[PayneTrain]

I would think that a package of items that has to be 5 feet long is something extremely rigid , because why on earth are you going to send teams home with something that cumbersome in a compact car unless you HAVE to?

The bumper thing is interesting. There have been dropped hints about what FIRST wants to change with bumpers for the 2015 season, but I think unless they just give everybody a physical pre-made bumper assembly, they're not going to get everyone to make them correctly.

[jvriezen]

But its not manufactured on a roll for each team for the amount we'd be receiving. It would have been cut from rolls of fabric.

Fabric buyers in general don't want creases. Our bumper fabric orders have always come in tubes because that's how the industry works!

http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-5574/Tubes/3-x-60-Kraft-Mailing-Tubes-with-End-Caps-125-thick

[notmattlythgoe]

Its totally a bumper car power pole...

[cgmv123]

Since no one has posted it yet, here is the list of kickoff kit components:

2015 Kickoff Kits will consist of the following items for all teams (sizes and weights are approximate):

A) One set of items, collectively, 27 in. x 17 in. x 17 in., 60 lbs.

B) One item, 8 in. x 3 in. x 7 in., 14 lbs.

C) One set of items, collectively, 29 in. x 22 in. x 22 in., 9 lbs.

D) One set of items, collectively 3 in. x 3 in. x 60 in., 6 lbs.

2015 Kickoff Kits will include the following additional items for Rookie teams only:

E) One item, 27 in. x 17 in. x 13 in., 26 lbs.

F) One item, 8 in. x 3 in. x 7 in., 14 lbs.

Teams who did not opt out of the Drive Base Kit will also receive the following item:

G) One item, 34 in. x 6 in. x 7 in., 24 lbs.

[Christopher149]

Since no one has posted it yet, here is the list of kickoff kit components:

Correlating with the 2014 kit, the 27 in. x 17 in. x ## in. items are probably totes. I'm curious what the 29 in. x 22 in. x 22 in., 9 lbs. item is: it's large and very light.

[notmattlythgoe]

Correlating with the 2014 kit, the 27 in. x 17 in. x ## in. items are probably totes. I'm curious what the 29 in. x 22 in. x 22 in., 9 lbs. item is: it's large and very light.

Box of game pieces maybe?

[MasterEric]

B) One item, 8 in. x 3 in. x 7 in., 14 lbs.

Has nobody pointed this out? This thing is really heavy for it's size.

Given that Item B has a size of 168 cubic inches, and a weight of 14 pounds, it has a density of approximately 0.083333333 pounds per cubic inch.

Looking at this site, (http://www.thelen.us/1density.php) several of my guesses are eliminated, including solid gold and human bone

[cgmv123]

B and F are obviously batteries. IIRC, they've been in the totes the last few years.

[Munchskull]

The 3×3×60 item is a set of items totalling in those dimensions.

[jvriezen]

The 3×3×60 item is a set of items totalling in those dimensions.

Yep. One piece of red fabric, one blue.

[Whippet]

The 3×3×60 item is a set of items totalling in those dimensions.

Two 60" graduated cylinders for measuring the water.

[smarthimandrew]

B and F are obviously batteries. IIRC, they've been in the totes the last few years.

Excellent, we can rule out B and F:
http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-0844.htm

[Taylor]

To help me visualize, I made a picture of the KoP components. I set them on a standard 48x40 pallet for scale.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-WZ5bSWRNhOVFVPenRjSXpLdkE/view?usp=sharing
Red and Blue objects are for everybody, Green objects are for Rookies, Black object is AM14U2.

[Sparky3D]

Yep. One piece of red fabric, one blue.

6 pounds would be a lot of fabric. :ahh:

[blazeflipper]

So, if this is our hint we have to look at every aspect of the post and assume it all was worded very carefully. They mentioned in their post that kickoff is 24 days away and Frank also made a post saying 24 days away directly after, I think that the "24" is important. Perhaps that the game piece is 24 inches long? It also says "One set of items, collectively" so maybe they gave us three game pieces. They allude to this component so we Know it isn't a typo "we recommend you leave the Vespa at home".

[notmattlythgoe]

So, if this is our hint we have to look at every aspect of the post and assume it all was worded very carefully. They mentioned in their post that kickoff is 24 days away and Frank also made a post saying 24 days away directly after, I think that the "24" is important. Perhaps that the game piece is 24 inches long? It also says "One set of items, collectively" so maybe they gave us three game pieces. They allude to this component so we Know it isn't a typo "we recommend you leave the Vespa at home".

This is a good point, just because they are "collectively" 3x3x60 doesn't mean it is packaged at 60" long or each one is 60" long, it could be a bunch of shorter items when put end to end in line are 60" long.

[FrankJ]

The kit is apparently full of items. So anything marketed as or commercially available as an "item" is legal? "item" is also used a term for certain interpersonal relationships. So is this some sort of game hint about AI?

[MrRoboSteve]

My guess for 3x3 is 'must use' bumper fabric. Would add to asthetics of matches and prevent fabric selection for advantage.

29x22x22 is two or more game pieces?

And I just got the Rockywoods shipment notification a few minutes ago...

[jvriezen]

I computed density for the 22x22x29 and compared to density of a case of pool noodles shipping size and weight from amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Tundra-TWLN36-12-Water-Noodles-12-Pack/dp/B00J5OO36O/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1418226503&sr=8-4&keywords=pool+noodles&pebp=1418226525796

Almost identical density. 64 29" noodles? Enough for two sets of bumpers for a competition and a practice bot times two. Not nearly as convinced about this. Seems like a lot noodles unless the mfgr makes them 58" and they cut the boxes in half.

Otherwise there is a lot of air in that box.

[Arpan]

This is a good point, just because they are "collectively" 3x3x60 doesn't mean it is packaged at 60" long or each one is 60" long, it could be a bunch of shorter items when put end to end in line are 60" long.

In this case, why would they burden teams with something this long to carry? I'd bet that It's a roll of bumper fabric.

[cgmv123]

Otherwise there is a lot of air in that box.

Par for the course if it's from Amazon. ;)

[weaversam8]

I did some calculations, and 2" aluminum tubing that is 5 feet long would be roughly equivalent to 6 pounds.

[notmattlythgoe]

I computed density for the 22x22x29 and compared to density of a case of pool noodles shipping size and weight from amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Tundra-TWLN36-12-Water-Noodles-12-Pack/dp/B00J5OO36O/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1418226503&sr=8-4&keywords=pool+noodles&pebp=1418226525796

Almost identical density. 64 29" noodles? Enough for two sets of bumpers for a competition and a practice bot times two. Not nearly as convinced about this. Seems like a lot noodles unless the mfgr makes them 58" and they cut the boxes in half.

Otherwise there is a lot of air in that box.

A box full of wiffle balls? Or ball pit balls?

[Boe]

I dont think FIRST would package a number of smaller items in a box of that shape, it seems really cumbersome so I think its pretty safe to assume whatever is in the 3x3x60 box needs a box that long to fit it in.

[notmattlythgoe]

In this case, why would they burden teams with something this long to carry? I'd bet that It's a roll of bumper fabric.

I said it doesn't necessarily mean it is packaged at 60" long. It just says it is a set of items that is collectively that long. However I think this is very unlikely and it is most likely something that is 60" long.

[jvriezen]

A box full of wiffle balls? Or ball pit balls?

FTC is using whiffle balls this year. It would have to be something that can't be shipped deflated.

[Arpan]

A box full of wiffle balls? Or ball pit balls?

Remember, this is a no-balls year :P

[Shu]

My first though when I saw the size and weight of item B was one of these. How about that for a game piece? But I think the obvious answer is a battery.

[notmattlythgoe]

How heavy have the totes been in the past? Is this year's tote much heavier than it has been in the past?

[Whippet]

Remember, this is a no-balls year :P

So was that game we never refer to, but it happened anyway. :D

[Arpan]

My final guess is that the long box is cloth and the large light one is pool noodle, and that FRC is providing us with bumper materials this year to standardize everything.

The gamepiece probably comes in the tote like it has for the past few years now.

[jman4747]

I said it doesn't necessarily mean it is packaged at 60" long. It just says it is a set of items that is collectively that long. However I think this is very unlikely and it is most likely something that is 60" long.

Dido.

Even if it were like 5 ~12" long 3x3 boxes for example why not just use one 12x9x6 box or something like that. Also they seem to be trying to say that we should prepare for something cumbersome (a 5ft long box). Same thing for wiffle balls, why not a square box? It would be cheaper/easier for us and FIRST. Based on that whatever this is has to need a box that big or else it is a waste. To the point of bumper materials, why supply everyone with something most of us have already bought and paid for? Why not tell us we are getting bumper fabric and noodles ahead of time so we don't spend the money? The whole point is so we don't spend it anyway.

[notmattlythgoe]

My final guess is that the long box is cloth and the large light one is pool noodle, and that FRC is providing us with bumper materials this year to standardize everything.

The gamepiece probably comes in the tote like it has for the past few years now.

29" noodles aren't really what you want for building bumpers though, you need something longer than that.

[notmattlythgoe]

Dido.

Even if it were like 5 ~12" long 3x3 boxes for example why not just use one 12x9x6 box or something like that. Also they seem to be trying to say that we should prepare for something cumbersome (a 5ft long box). Same thing for wiffle balls, why not a square box? It would be cheaper/easier for us and FIRST. I think based on that whatever this is has to need a box that big or else it is a waste. To the point of bumper materials, why supply everyone with something most of us have already bought and paid for? Why not tell us we are getting bumper fabric and noodles ahead of time so we don't spend the money? The whole point is so we don't spend it anyway.

I can't remember if they announced the switch to red and blue bumpers early or if we found out on kickoff, can anybody else remember?

[scca229]

B and F are obviously batteries. IIRC, they've been in the totes the last few years.

Wouldn't the batteries then be included in the items A and E weights (look like the black and green tote sizes from memory) since they are normally inside the totes and be part of the "collectively" statement? The sizes are right for batteries but didn't one of the extra motors boxes come outside the black tote last year?

[Oblarg]

Why would FIRST say "collectively 3''x3''x60''" rather than "collectively 540 cubic inches" if they were simply giving a spec for the total volume of a collection of items? I'm having a hard time buying that.

Bumper cloth and pool noodles sound reasonable. Re: the seemingly absurd amount of pool noodles that fit in the specified weight, I bet it becomes a whole lot more reasonable if you swap some of it out with plywood ;).

[Christopher149]

How heavy have the totes been in the past? Is this year's tote much heavier than it has been in the past?

2014 KOP (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/2014-kit-of-parts): Veteran tote is same weight, rookie tote is lighter this year.

[notmattlythgoe]

Why would FIRST say "collectively 3''x3''x60''" rather than "collectively 540 cubic inches" if they were simply giving a spec for the total volume of a collection of items? I'm having a hard time buying that.

Bumper cloth and pool noodles sound reasonable. Re: the seemingly absurd amount of pool noodles that fit in the specified weight, I bet it becomes a whole lot more reasonable if you swap some of it out with plywood ;).

Because this blog post was named Kit "Hints" and FIRST likes to watch CD squirm...

The noodles seems reasonable, but the 29" seems shorter than you actually want your noodles.

[jman4747]

2014 KOP (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/2014-kit-of-parts): Veteran tote is same weight, rookie tote is lighter this year.

New control system is going to everyone thus it is within box "A" while this year's rookie tote no longer has the C-Rio and other control peripherals.

[jman4747]

Why would FIRST say "collectively 3''x3''x60''" rather than "collectively 540 cubic inches" if they were simply giving a spec for the total volume of a collection of items? I'm having a hard time buying that.

Bumper cloth and pool noodles sound reasonable. Re: the seemingly absurd amount of pool noodles that fit in the specified weight, I bet it becomes a whole lot more reasonable if you swap some of it out with plywood ;).

They want us to prepare to transport that long box. From making Mc Master Carr runs in a 4 door sedan for ~5ft long square and rectangle tube, I know there are 0 ways to transport something that long that fully keep it within the car and that allow the passenger to be comfortable.

[Taylor]

To the point of bumper materials, why supply everyone with something most of us have already bought and paid for? Why not tell us we are getting bumper fabric and noodles ahead of time so we don't spend the money? The whole point is so we don't spend it anyway.
Something I've noticed is we didn't get the usual "hey you guys should buy pool noodles" blog that we generally see around August.

[MrForbes]

.....why on earth are you going to send teams home with something that cumbersome in a compact car unless you HAVE to?

Compact car? I'm driving my old Suburban (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123304)....

We've gone back to flags for identifying alliances, and the new flag pole is 60" long...

[D.Allred]

Wouldn't the batteries then be included in the items A and E weights (look like the black and green tote sizes from memory) since they are normally inside the totes and be part of the "collectively" statement? The sizes are right for batteries but didn't one of the extra motors boxes come outside the black tote last year?

Last year batteries were included in the totes. This year we're getting boxes, not totes.
http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/2014-kit-of-parts

[cgmv123]

Wouldn't the batteries then be included in the items A and E weights (look like the black and green tote sizes from memory) since they are normally inside the totes and be part of the "collectively" statement? The sizes are right for batteries but didn't one of the extra motors boxes come outside the black tote last year?

Sizes match; weights match. Everyone gets one battery; rookies get an additional one. What other item fits that description?

Yes, batteries were in the totes last year, but they've been separate from the totes in years past as well.

[Mr V]

In recent years Rookie teams have received bumper fabric in their KOP, it was folded and placed in the Rookie tote. IIRC the extra battery that rookies received last year was not included in their Rookie tote.

So I'm pretty certain that the 60" long box is not bumper fabric, yes when manufactured it is placed on a roll or bolt but we only need a relatively small amount so once they cut it to size it is easy to fold it up.

I'm also pretty certain that the 14lb items are batteries.

[Everett33]

"We’re in full swing"

We are going to play Baseball!

[notmattlythgoe]

In recent years Rookie teams have received bumper fabric in their KOP, it was folded and placed in the Rookie tote. IIRC the extra battery that rookies received last year was not included in their Rookie tote.

So I'm pretty certain that the 60" long box is not bumper fabric, yes when manufactured it is placed on a roll or bolt but we only need a relatively small amount so once they cut it to size it is easy to fold it up.

I'm also pretty certain that the 14lb items are batteries.

I agree with this. While it is definitely possible that is is bumper fabric, I find it highly unlikely that they would put the fabric in rolls and not just fold it up. And if the were rolling it it seems like it would make much more sense to roll it the other direction.

[Joey1939]

On AndyMark (http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-2676.htm) you can by rolls of bumper material that are 19.5in rolls.
60/19.5 is approximately 3.
3 Alliances confirmed.

[Thad House]

Here are my guesses

A: Standard KOP bin, including motors and basically anything else standard
B: Batteries x2
C: RoboRIO and RoboRIO Parts
D: No clue at all

E: Rookie tote, including joysticks, camera and driver station laptop
F: Batteries x2

G: KOP Drive Base

Man D is killing me.

[Boe]

On AndyMark (http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-2676.htm) you can by rolls of bumper material that are 19.5in rolls.
60/19.5 is approximately 3.
3 Alliances confirmed.

That could make sense, I still feel like it would be an odd shaped box for 3 rolls, does anyone know what the diameter of one of these rolls is?

[Andrew Lawrence]

You know what fits in 3x3x60? Small footballs and deflated inner tubes. ;)

[Deke]

Didn't they have to stack long rods in ftc or fll in the past? That was what i thought we were going to do in 2014.

Other theories, mini football goal posts.

12' tiny mini bot pole.

[Thad House]

What if D is a tube of regolith? :ahh:

[piersklein]

If there were multiple objects less than 60" in length, then why would First not just package in a more square box (so much cheaper). My thought is that whatever is in the box is packaged like metal rods (http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-gb/Consumables/Pages/product.aspx?product=Products_consumableEU_stickEl ectrodes-Panta-Pantafix(LincolnElectric_EU_Base))

[BrendanB]

If there were multiple objects less than 60" in length, then why would First not just package in a more square box (so much cheaper). My thought is that whatever is in the box is packaged like metal rods (http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-gb/Consumables/Pages/product.aspx?product=Products_consumableEU_stickEl ectrodes-Panta-Pantafix(LincolnElectric_EU_Base))

Because if there is one thing they know well it is that they can release pointless information and people in the community will go crazy. ;)

[FrankJ]

You know what fits in 3x3x60? Small footballs and deflated inner tubes. ;)

It could be the new frame perimeter. :eek:

[billbo911]

What if D is a tube of regolith? :ahh:

It could be the new frame perimeter. :eek:

As I said... (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1412699&postcount=22)

See, it's a Hockey Goal. We're playing on Regolith again!!!

Aka, Frozen Water Game!

[jagoldman]

We recommend you leave the Vespa at home.

What about the vespa comment?

[Jon K.]

Something I've noticed is we didn't get the usual "hey you guys should buy pool noodles" blog that we generally see around August.


Instead they gave this post:
http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-NASA-Grants-and-Something-New-for-2015

Particularly No one should look at any rules from prior years and think “They would never change that”, because we may. Number of teams on an alliance, number of alliances in a match, match length, bumper rules, field surfaces, robot size, every element from prior year games is carefully considered anew every year.

[Bryce2471]

You know what fits in 3x3x60?
A mini bot pole made out of regolith!!! ;D

[MrTechCenter]

What about the vespa comment?

It's probably saying that the one box is 5ft long so you won't be able to transport it on something small, like a Vespa.

[Pretzel]

When you purchase a new set of irons (for golf), they are shipped in a box that measures approximately 4"x4"x60", but this is designed to carry a full set of eight golf clubs.

An individually packaged iron will weigh about 3 pounds when it's ready to ship, with each iron weighing between one and two pounds. This means that about 3-4 golf clubs could fit in the box's weight limit. From heel to toe, with the shaft oriented vertically, a golf club measures less than the ~4.25 inches of space (measured diagonally) in the 3"x3" square. A golf club is also easily fits within the 60" of length given by such a box (with room to vertically stagger clubs and add soft packing material, as the major golf manufacturers do when shipping clubs in their 60" boxes). This means that it's entirely possible for the box to contain three golf clubs with it's specified dimensions and given weight.

Are you ready to don your plaid knickers and driving cap?

[Derpancakes]

It is interesting that the blog says 'One SET of items' in the 3x3x60. It's definitely not one item, and I'd bet strongly against any sort of metal due to the weight.

[Thad House]

A mini bot pole made out of regolith!!! ;D

Can we add a DOGMA penalty for every time the wheels slip?

[Justin Montois]

I can't really think of anything that seems to make sense....if it's a game piece.

Lets say there are 20, 3x3x3 boxes. Something that small will probably not be a game piece as I believe they are too small to appeal visually to the audience. Also, if it is one long object, I don't see what it could be that it wouldn't be more cost effective for a team just to buy or make themselves or at least duplicate out of something like PVC.

As with most "hint" related things we're probably over-thinking it. It's probably just pool noodles. Heavy ones....

[BBray_T1296]

Can we add a DOGMA penalty for every time the wheels slip?

no, just a 50 point tech foul :rolleyes:

[Bryce2471]

A) One set of items, collectively, 27 in. x 17 in. x 17 in., 60 lbs.

E) One item, 27 in. x 17 in. x 13 in., 26 lbs.
It's a pretty safe bet to say that item A is probably the standard tote. It is listed as a set of items, where as item E is listed as a single item. Just food for thought.

[Jon Stratis]

Because this blog post was named Kit "Hints" and FIRST likes to watch CD squirm...

The noodles seems reasonable, but the 29" seems shorter than you actually want your noodles.

Keep in mind that a perfectly square robot meeting last year's frame perimeter measurement was 28" on a side, which makes 29" possible. You can also stick two noodles end to end if you need to in a bumper... I know we've done it before, and it gives the same end results when wrapped up - same protection, and looks just as good.

[notmattlythgoe]

Keep in mind that a perfectly square robot meeting last year's frame perimeter measurement was 28" on a side, which makes 29" possible. You can also stick two noodles end to end if you need to in a bumper... I know we've done it before, and it gives the same end results when wrapped up - same protection, and looks just as good.

Good point on the end to end option. 29" is still too short for a 28x28 robot, you need the overhang for the corners, it is definitely possible though. Although it seems strange that they would cut them down to that length for us...

[indubitably]

What about the vespa comment?

The blog itself, other than the title, is just a message from the KOP team, so I don't think reading into the language will help much.

[Foster]

I'm going to suggest that the 3" * 3" by 60" is a life size poster of JVN, with a stand. As you may recall from a RobotWranglers video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QMquMHmielc) that they had a cutout of JVN that they just placed in a room with the Roboteers. In an instant they went from goofing off to super buzzy activity.

Thanks FIRST!

[Bruceb]

Ah Lunacy had special wheels.

[Bob Steele]

Ahhh "we are in full swing"
3X3X60 box.....

gotta be a light saber. (maybe two)

[holygrail]

On AndyMark (http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-2676.htm) you can by rolls of bumper material that are 19.5in rolls.
60/19.5 is approximately 3.
3 Alliances confirmed.

Why wouldn't they just stack the rolls of bumper fabric side by side instead of end to end? I don't think it is bumper fabric because they would have to give us a red and blue roll (at least) and they would still probably just stack those next to each other.

Can't be pool noodles. That box is the size of 1 pool noodle and those are way less than 6 lbs.

It doesn't make sense to put objects end to end in a super skinny box. It only makes sense if the object itself is 60 inches long and can't be folded, collapsed, or bent. My guess is some kind of pipe that is used to construct a game element or goal. Who knows, maybe giant tetrahedrons or something?

[Kevin Pardus]

Good point on the end to end option. 29" is still too short for a 28x28 robot, you need the overhang for the corners, it is definitely possible though. Although it seems strange that they would cut them down to that length for us...

Connecting two pool noodles together to make longer pieces is just one way to fill in the open spaces for the bumper corners. From the 2014 Game Manual, Figure 4-9: Soft Parts of BUMPER Corners
17573

[FrankJ]

It's probably saying that the one box is 5ft long so you won't be able to transport it on something small, like a Vespa.
Speak for yourself....
http://www.ericchadwick.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/20111019_102558.jpg

[notmattlythgoe]

Connecting two pool noddles together to make longer pieces is just one way to fill in the open spaces for the bumper corners. From the 2014 Game Manual, Figure 4-9: Soft Parts of BUMPER Corners
17573

Very true, it still seems odd that they would cut them down to that size initially though. Unless they are going to require a specific dimension of the robot, which I would be disappointed by.

[Bryce2471]

Ahhh "we are in full swing"
3X3X60 box.....

gotta be a light saber. (maybe two)
This is what I want for FIRSTmas!
*Adds to actual FIRSTmas list*

[Kevin Pardus]

Very true, it still seems odd that they would cut them down to that size initially though. Unless they are going to require a specific dimension of the robot, which I would be disappointed by.

See previously posted quotes

Instead they gave this post:
http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-NASA-Grants-and-Something-New-for-2015

ParticularlyQuote:
No one should look at any rules from prior years and think “They would never change that”, because we may. Number of teams on an alliance, number of alliances in a match, match length, bumper rules, field surfaces, robot size, every element from prior year games is carefully considered anew every year.

"bold is my emphasis"

[rhinobot]

Correlating with the 2014 kit, the 27 in. x 17 in. x ## in. items are probably totes. I'm curious what the 29 in. x 22 in. x 22 in., 9 lbs. item is: it's large and very light.

Inner tube for the water game

[artdutra04]

Its totally a bumper car power pole...http://www.atthecinema.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/bttf-005a.jpg

New power source this year... 1.21 jiggawatts

[notmattlythgoe]

http://www.atthecinema.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/bttf-005a.jpg

New power source this year... 1.21 jiggawatts

Well that's only going to work if we can get up to 88 MPH!

[Thad House]

Well that's only going to work if we can get up to 88 MPH!

Thats only 129 FPS. Thats not too hard.

[orangemoore]

Thats only 129 FPS. Thats not too hard.

The problem is acceleration we have less than 54 feet to get up to speed

[dellagd]

Due to this pdf (http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Game_and_Season__Info/2015/2015_Rookie_Veteran_Variation_Table.pdf) on the differences between the Veteran and the Rookie KOP and the sizes of the batteries, I'd say B and F are undeniably batteries

[Whippet]

The problem is acceleration we have less than 54 feet to get up to speed

No problem. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1402045&postcount=51)

[Oblarg]

The problem is acceleration we have less than 54 feet to get up to speed

Better make sure we have decagonal wheels to maximize traction.

[Kellen Hill]

The problem is acceleration we have less than 54 feet to get up to speed

Where we're playing, we won't need carpet.

Also, maybe we'll hear some legitimate requests for flux capacitors from pit admin this year! :rolleyes:

[orangemoore]

No problem. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1402045&postcount=51)

That uses 4 extra mini cims and is 30fps under what is needed.

[IndySam]

3x3x60 has to be something special that can't be easily purchased. I can't see any other reason for a package like that. So it has to be some type of game piece(s) that are long and ridged or some special surface rolled up ie...... sticky, slippery....... for a ramp or other terrain.

[Lil' Lavery]

I really hope this doesnt happen (https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/46194_719673391400787_267911721_n.jpg?oh=53b277284 46fb8a40b2ec16a9d2160dc&oe=550287B1)

357 has you beat (http://team357.org/RA_iWeb/images/photos/2014jester_fullsize.jpg)

Ahhh "we are in full swing"
3X3X60 box.....

gotta be a light saber. (maybe two)

Is there enough room for a crossguard in that box? :rolleyes:

[jeremylee]

3x3x60 has to be something special that can't be easily purchased. I can't see any other reason for a package like that. So it has to be some type of game piece(s) that are long and ridged or some special surface rolled up ie...... sticky, slippery....... for a ramp or other terrain.
3 inch diameter is going to require something very flexible if it is a game surface.

Capture the flag?

[Michael Hill]

I'm guessing the 3x3x60 box has a roll of retroreflective material or some other sort of sheet that needs to be rolled up. I don't think it's bumper material because it's generally pretty easy to get, unless they've decided that they didn't like different materials (i.e., sailcloth, pleather, etc.) and want to standardize, but I don't imagine that being the case. If it's a round tube, they can be pretty heavy anyway (2.4 lbs, http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-5574/Tubes/3-x-60-Kraft-Mailing-Tubes-with-End-Caps-125-thick).

[Woolly]

According to Wikipedia, an MLB baseball is 2-7/8 in - 3in in diameter, and weighs between 5-5.25 ounces. Doing the math on that would mean that a 3X3X60 box would be about right for holding 20 baseballs and would weigh 6.25-6.5625lbs.

[Michael Hill]

According to Wikipedia, an MLB baseball is 2-7/8 in - 3in in diameter, and weighs between 5-5.25 ounces. Doing the math on that would mean that a 3X3X60 box would be about right for holding 20 baseballs and would weigh 6.25-6.5625lbs.

Yeah, baseballs aren't going to happen....as fun as that would be. They have a bad habit of being deadly.

[notmattlythgoe]

Yeah, baseballs aren't going to happen....as fun as that would be. They have a bad habit of being deadly.

I think the 22x22x29 box is full of ball pit balls.

[AdamHeard]

According to Wikipedia, an MLB baseball is 2-7/8 in - 3in in diameter, and weighs between 5-5.25 ounces. Doing the math on that would mean that a 3X3X60 box would be about right for holding 20 baseballs and would weigh 6.25-6.5625lbs.

Anything like that makes much more sense to package in a square box to minimize length.

[Jared]

We want to make sure you have the information you need to get your Kickoff Kit home safely. The Kit of Parts homepage has been updated with sizes and weights of various components of the Kickoff Kit that you can expect to have to pack up and take back to your build space.


If it's 20 baseballs or some number of shorter than 60" long items, they wouldn't pack them in a 3 x 3 x 20 box. This means that the item is either 60" long, or multiple items that can be stacked to 60" long. I don't think it's the second option because the purpose of showing the weights and the sizes was to give teams the ability to prepare to carry back the kickoff kit, not to mislead people about the size of what is in the kit.

They wouldn't have teams prepare to bring back a flagpole box if they could rearrange the contents to have more reasonable dimensions.

[Alan Anderson]

...a 3X3X60 box would be about right for holding 20 baseballs and would weigh 6.25-6.5625lbs.

A 6x6x15 box would also hold 20 baseballs and would not unduly inconvenience Vespa owners. I agree with the assumption that this box is 5 feet long because that's the natural length of whatever is inside it.

How tall is the driver station "glass"?

[Bryan Herbst]

How tall is the driver station "glass"?

It has been (and will almost certainly continue to be) 41.5". Source: page 19 of the basic field drawings (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/2014-Official-FIRST-Field-Drawings).

[BBray_T1296]

Ah @#$%@# had special wheels.

You have said that which should not have been spoken.

[AllenGregoryIV]

I agree with the assumption that this box is 5 feet long because that's the natural length of whatever is inside it.


I agree. I'm thinking something similar to the VEX ladder from the 2010 game Round Up. Some sheet metal and other materials that assemble into a game element of some kind.

Maybe a rehash of the 2009 trailer idea and have something that must be mounted on each robot.

[cfair]

The suggestion that "D" is a game piece has merit. But how about if it's a robot component that is required to manipulate a game piece? Last year was all about cooperation, passing was very high value; what if you are required to manipulate games pieces with this long robot component (provided in the kit)? Maybe the game pieces are hula hoops and you have to keep them off the ground and pass them when you go from loading to scoring... The latter is definitely reading too much into a box's dimensions, it's not unusual to dictate robot components as well as playing pieces. Or maybe the box contains hula hoops!

[Nate Laverdure]

A 6x6x15 box would also hold 20 baseballs...
I betcha a 6x6x15 box would hold 32 baseballs because face-centered cubic packing :)

[Jaywalker1711]

"We're in full swing"
Normally I wouldn't have thought anything of this comment, but the following posts made me think about it:

According to Wikipedia, an MLB baseball is 2-7/8 in - 3in in diameter, and weighs between 5-5.25 ounces. Doing the math on that would mean that a 3X3X60 box would be about right for holding 20 baseballs and would weigh 6.25-6.5625lbs.

When you purchase a new set of irons (for golf), they are shipped in a box that measures approximately 4"x4"x60", but this is designed to carry a full set of eight golf clubs.

An individually packaged iron will weigh about 3 pounds when it's ready to ship, with each iron weighing between one and two pounds. This means that about 3-4 golf clubs could fit in the box's weight limit. From heel to toe, with the shaft oriented vertically, a golf club measures less than the ~4.25 inches of space (measured diagonally) in the 3"x3" square. A golf club is also easily fits within the 60" of length given by such a box (with room to vertically stagger clubs and add soft packing material, as the major golf manufacturers do when shipping clubs in their 60" boxes). This means that it's entirely possible for the box to contain three golf clubs with it's specified dimensions and given weight.


So what kinds of swings are there? Baseball, golf, hockey (won't happen again) and tennis
Perhaps the long box is full of a few baseball bats or golf clubs? Or perhaps it is full of baseballs (probably wiffle balls) or golf balls (made of plastic)? Or maybe even a long tube of tennis balls

and about the #24....
FYI: Rickey Henderson, a pretty famous baseball player, was the number 24. He was famous for running and stealing bases

And to those saying that the 60" box is one long pole, read more carefully:
It says "One set of items, collectively 3 in. x 3 in. x 60 in., 6 lbs," meaning that there are at least 2 things inside the box

Of course, we are all probably making much adieu about nothing and the boxes probably just have bumper materials in them.

[Charloggle]

3x3x60? It's probably a hose. Water game confirmed!

[weaversam8]

I could definitely dig the capture the flag method. A red and blue flag could fit in that box.

[Charloggle]

Yep. One piece of red fabric, one blue.

Maybe they're so heavy because the required bumper fabric is denim.

[Lil' Lavery]

Fabric could be a field element, rather than for bumpers.

[Oblarg]

Game piece is not going to be a ball. I'll put money on that.

[x86_4819]

This may be reiterating conclusions already met, but here are my thoughts and reasoning on item D:

FIRST gave us this data ahead of time for a reason, namely to warn about the size of object D, and for teams to prepare accordingly. I don't think that they would give us misleading data that might cause teams to make unnecessary plans and commitments for Kickoff.

FIRST understands that this might be inconvenient to some teams, and I think that they would strive to make any object as easy to transport as possible. Thus, if FIRST tells us we need to be able to carry a 5' object home with us, it probably can't be made shorter for long periods of time without damaging it.

There are more than one objects in the item set, as indicated by FIRST. If the reasoning above is correct, then at least one object is 5' long in it's storage configuration. Are all of the items like this? Might there be but a single 5' object, and an accompanying 3' object in there as well? We can't know for sure.

The configuration of the 5' object while in long term storage may not be the configuration of the object while in it's expected use.

For the moment: let's assume that the unaltered object is intended to be an element of the Finished Robot.

If the object is rigid, then 5' of something with questionable strength could be reasoned to be kept within the frame perimeter, away from the possibility of being broken by other robots. Thus it is supposed to be held vertically, and will probably cause the robot to be constantly > 5' in height while containing the object. Thus the rules would need to allow for this, either by allowing extra height for the object, or by raising the robot's total height limit. Neither is a big barrier, but something to think about.

If the object is flexible, than it can be expected that flexing it for extended periods of time would cause some deformation in it, due to the transportation situation. One possibility is that it is intended to be replaced occasionally, and to deform/break it is expected. If this is not the case, then you could apply the same reasoning held if it were rigid.

On the other hand, what if it were a field element?

FIRST would not include this if it were easily replaced. Thus I doubt that it is as simple as a pole, you could easily use a stick instead.

It must be a crucial tool to designing and building the robot, not an optional accessory.

Those are just my 2 cents, feel free to let loose with the nukes if you so wish.

[Chi Meson]

I hope we'll still be able to buy wheels. It would be a pretty terrible game if we had special FIRST-mandated wheels as a central element to gameplay. Good thing it hasn't happened yet...
If that happened we'd never hear the end of it. People would still be complaining about it, 5 years later...

You're right. That would be sheer lunacy!

Edit:
<<<Look who just noticed the thread was 10 pages long. Still, did nobody hit that one yet?

[piersklein]

Item D is actually just two JVN cutouts with EJ's face stuck over them. Frank gets us

[Thad House]

Got it. C is a box of corn dogs. D is stacks of this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ) video on DVD.

[billbo911]

Got it. C is a box of corn dogs. D is stacks of this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ) video on DVD.
I wondered how long it would take for that to happen.
Thanks Thad!!

[orangemoore]

It's amazing this thread has over 100 posts less than a day later after it was posted

[Jaywalker1711]

There is another possibility that no one has mentioned yet:
A game using Tennis balls

Tennis balls are 2.575-2.700 inches in diameter. But get this: tennis ball cans are 8.5 x 3 x 3 inches, meaning that you could fit 7 in the box (60/8.5) with a tiny bit of room to spare.

"We're in full swing" could refer to a tennis swing

[MrTechCenter]

My prediction: Capture the Flag

[mman1506]

Does First ship the FLL mats in a similar long box like this one or do they fold it?

[cadandcookies]

Does First ship the FLL mats in a similar long box like this one or do they fold it?

Definitely long boxes. Folded FLL mats would be an utter disaster. Those robots are ridiculously sensitive.

[MamaSpoldi]

Does First ship the FLL mats in a similar long box like this one or do they fold it?

The FLL mats are rolled, not folded. However, I believe this is more likely due to the fact that those robots are rather light weight and must traverse those mats with some level of precision which would be very difficult if there were creases in the mat.

[cgmv123]

Does First ship the FLL mats in a similar long box like this one or do they fold it?

Definitely long boxes. Folded FLL mats would be an utter disaster. Those robots are ridiculously sensitive.

They actually tried to switch to folded mats a few years ago. It went about as well as you'd think.

[Nate Laverdure]

Does First ship the FLL mats in a similar long box like this one or do they fold it?
Those FLL mat rolls are 4' long, not 5'.

[jeremylee]

C could be the base for the flag in D. The weight of C is due to the need to counter weight the flag to self right itself.

[DohertyBilly]

Last year batteries were included in the totes. This year we're getting boxes, not totes.



Sizes match; weights match. Everyone gets one battery; rookies get an additional one. What other item fits that description?

Yes, batteries were in the totes last year, but they've been separate from the totes in years past as well.

So the battery has been removed from the tote, but the weight remains the same. My question is what is making up that extra 14 lbs? That number seems a bit high for just the new control system.

[Nuttyman54]

Maybe it's materials for a "build-your-own sizing box"? They did say big changes could coming. Qty 4 of 60" lengths of 1"x1"x 0.125" aluminum angle comes in right around 5.5lbs. That's the amount you'd need to build a nominal cube sizing box 28"x28"x28" with an open bottom (4 horizontal lengths make the square base, plus 4 vertical legs). Maybe some corner connectors are included

It expands on the recent changes to the 112" perimeter rule. Now you would make your sizing box whatever size you want with the material provided. Bring it with to inspection, show that your robot fits.

Crazy? Yes. Cumbersome? Definitely. A good idea? Almost certainly not. But it checks all the boxes (pun intended):
-Required for every team
-Cannot be packed in a shorter box
-Multiple items
-6lbs
-Big change

[StAxis]

Maybe it's materials for a "build-your-own sizing box"? They did say big changes could coming. Qty 4 of 60" lengths of 1"x1"x 0.125" aluminum angle comes in right around 5.5lbs. That's the amount you'd need to build a nominal cube sizing box 28"x28"x28" with an open bottom (4 horizontal lengths make the square base, plus 4 vertical legs). Maybe some corner connectors are included

It expands on the recent changes to the 112" perimeter rule. Now you would make your sizing box whatever size you want with the material provided. Bring it with to inspection, show that your robot fits.

Crazy? Yes. Cumbersome? Definitely. A good idea? Almost certainly not. But it checks all the boxes (pun intended):
-Required for every team
-Cannot be packed in a shorter box
-Multiple items
-6lbs
-Big change

This is a surprisingly reasonable, but I refuse to accept it as I am not ready to give up on my wild theories just yet.

[Jared]

If it's a game piece, it likely isn't fully assembled. I have a hard time imagining a safe, interesting 60 x 3 x 3 game piece that isn't impossible to manipulate.

[AllenGregoryIV]

This is a surprisingly reasonable, but I refuse to accept it as I am not ready to give up on my wild theories just yet.

As an LRI its hard enough to get every team to bring bumpers to competition. Trying to get them to bring a sizing box would be a nightmare.

[cgmv123]

As an LRI its hard enough to get every team to bring bumpers to competition. Trying to get them to bring a sizing box would be a nightmare.

Not to mention that sizing boxes are basically empty space, which there isn't room to store one for every team of at most events.

[theawesome1730]

Has nobody pointed this out? This thing is really heavy for it's size.

Given that Item B has a size of 168 cubic inches, and a weight of 14 pounds, it has a density of approximately 0.083333333 pounds per cubic inch.

Looking at this site, (http://www.thelen.us/1density.php) several of my guesses are eliminated, including solid gold and human bone

It's a battery.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Not to mention that sizing boxes are basically empty space, which there isn't room to store one for every team of at most events.

I assumed they would bolt together in some fashion, so they would store flat when you weren't using them.

[Nuttyman54]

This is a surprisingly reasonable, but I refuse to accept it as I am not ready to give up on my wild theories just yet.

To be fair, my idea is an an absolutely terrible idea, IMHO. As Allen Gregory pointed out, LRI's still have trouble getting teams to build bumpers correctly and bring them, even though they've been mandatory since 2008. Dealing with ensuring that all sizing boxes are compliant with the rules prior to allowing a team to demonstrate that their robot is compliant with the sizing box is several times as much work, and a recipe for disaster.

That's not to say that "choose your starting volume shape" option isn't doable, but I would hope it's implemented better than every team fabricating their own sizing box.

[StAxis]

To be fair, my idea is an an absolutely terrible idea, IMHO. As Allen Gregory pointed out, LRI's still have trouble getting teams to build bumpers correctly and bring them, even though they've been mandatory since 2008. Dealing with ensuring that all sizing boxes are compliant with the rules prior to allowing a team to demonstrate that their robot is compliant with the sizing box is several times as much work, and a recipe for disaster.

That's not to say that "choose your starting volume shape" option isn't doable, but I would hope it's implemented better than every team fabricating their own sizing box.

I didn't say it was a good idea, just a reasonable guess :P Probably isn't it, it's probably (and hopefully) something we'll never see coming. Can't wait to find out on January 3rd though!

[JimWright949]

I think it’s a pipe that has a specific coating on it. Something like the pipes in the game with mini-bots, however, since the coating is specific to the game, a sample with the exact coating is given to each team.

[x86_4819]

A pole with some kind of fancy vision target on it?

[dellagd]

About D:

Has FIRST ever given teams part of the field in the KOP? In my short time I haven't seen it, they've always had you buy cheap alternatives to the field elements yourself, and there have been plenty of poles used in the games.


Therefore I have to conclude that it is for some reason special, so doubt about that. I'm not quite sure how special a pole can get, and I can't think of any "coating" that would make it special either. I doubt they'd do mini-bots again, that wouldn't make sense to reuse such a specific end game after only 4 years.

That really only leaves some kind of surface rolled up... fabric would be my guess, maybe because they've added something more to the bumpers this year, I don't know.

The other option is a field surface... And the only surface that really matters is the floor during the competition...



PLEASE. DON'T! My team was just starting to make awesome progress with drive trains... I don't want to drive on regolith...

[GUI]

The game piece is a fluorescent light bulb, the long package is a bundle with a few spares to account for expected breakage.

[nathannfm]

So while everyone has been focusing on the long box (I doubt it's bumper fabric, but anyway) I took a look at the large, abnormally light box (29 in. x 22 in. x 22 in., 9 lbs.) If you assume the box itself is made of standard corrugated cardboard it would weigh ~3.25lb empty, leaving 5.75lb for contents. My bet is the contents are game pieces. One example of what would fit in this box is 3 balls (3 because thats how many we were given last time the game piece was foam balls) each with a diameter of 13.6". If they are made of polyurethane foam (Think dodgeball balls (http://www.ssww.com/item/gator-skin-special-foam-balls-W4792/cmc=SRCH/v=bmVyZiBiYWxscw%2C%2C/p=1/)) with a density of 2.5 lb/ft^3 they would have a weight of 1.92lb each. 3 of these, plus the box is almost exactly equal to 9lbs.

http://sc-cdn.scaleengine.net/i/eee5d49b25da1b75f69b56cf5e593ff4.png

[Oblarg]

PLEASE. DON'T! My team was just starting to make awesome progress with drive trains... I don't want to drive on regolith...

$10 says that if Regolith makes a return (please no), somewhere, some poor ill-advised team will still show up to competition with a 6-CIM drive.

[Chris is me]

Some of this has been said before, sorry.

I don't think any guess that doesn't account for the length of the box is correct. There is no reason to put everything in a 5 foot long box just to mess with people. It's so much more of a pain to ship, move around, and bring home an odd sized box than a more normal sized box; they wouldn't make the box long for no reason. Though the baseball theory has some merit.

Fabric often comes in standard widths of 54 inches. A possibility is that the box contains a mandatory - and new - bumper fabric material. This would address the subjectivity in the rules of what bumper materials are allowed and eliminate the advantages "engineered" bumpers give. The odd thing here is that the box weighs more than I would expect rolls of fabric to weigh. I wouldn't be surprised if they found a really tough and slippery fabric, engineered to help avoid T-bones, and maybe that weighs more than normal.

I don't think it's an odd, rolled up floor / driving material (like Regolith) - it's pretty hard to tightly roll somewhat rigid coverings into a 3" box. Perhaps it's a vision target, but that seems like a stretch; it hasn't been done in the past and they have moved toward retro-reflective tape anyway.

5 feet is the robot's max height from many years. Five feet of stock of a mandatory component or piece of extrusion is plausible. Perhaps it's "like" minibots, but robot side.

[mrnoble]

By far the most reasonable explanation is a roll with two or more colors of fabric. Spooling fabric is the quickest, safest and most practicable way to package and ship large amounts of material. Six pounds, including the center roll and the box, is totally within reason.

It's been clear to me for a while that bumpers are an area of the competition where two problems are developing for FRC. One is the constant frustration and occasional danger that is caused by teams that come to competition with incomplete or insufficient bumpers. It is often the last thing that young teams consider in build season, and with the goal being to get all teams to pass inspection, I've seen questionable bumpers okayed for play. The other is teams that are using bumpers to gain advantage through materials and construction that augment the original purpose (protection). See this year's sailcloth experiments.

All that is to say I would not be at all surprised if bumpers were standardized, and even increased in size. Three pool noodle height, perhaps? That would also increase protection, as well as the visibility of the (larger) team numbers, both of which would be highly desirable. I'll bet that the light 29" box is also bumper material.

[mrnoble]

Jinx, Chris.

[Oblarg]

All that is to say I would not be at all surprised if bumpers were standardized, and even increased in size. Three pool noodle height, perhaps? That would also increase protection, as well as the visibility of the (larger) team numbers, both of which would be highly desirable. I'll bet that the light 29" box is also bumper material.

I could get behind these changes.

I, too, think standardized bumpers are by far the most plausible explanation.

[mrnoble]

This is enough information for me to scrap plans to buy fabric and noodles prior to build. It's also enough to convince me that this year's game, whatever else it may be, will include plenty of robot-to-robot contact.

[brandon.cottrell]

Therefore I have to conclude that it is for some reason special, so doubt about that. I'm not quite sure how special a pole can get, and I can't think of any "coating" that would make it special either. I doubt they'd do mini-bots again, that wouldn't make sense to reuse such a specific end game after only 4 years.


Interesting enough, innertubes were reused after only 3 years.

[RamZ]

To quote this thread:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=131453

-In the source code for the site, the word "Choice" in the title "FIRST Choice" is split into "Ch", "o", and "ice". The word "ice" being alone is the first real hint towards it being a hockey game.
view-source:http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/2015-kit-of-parts


Not sure if this means anything, it's definitely odd, here's the snippet in question:


<h3 align="left"><strong><em>FIRST</em>&nbsp;Ch</strong><strong>o</strong><strong>ice</strong></h3>


I don't see any purpose for this to be written other than to:

Hint at an ice related game
Watch us freak out on CD

Yeah, probably the latter.

[Jacob Bendicksen]

As much as I'd love to see some sort of baseball bat/hockey stick/minibot pole hybrid, I have a feeling that the box just holds bumper materials. Bumpers have become such an annoyance for most teams and an opportunity for the better teams to gain advantage over the past few years that I think FIRST may have just decided to standardize them.

[dellagd]

Interesting enough, innertubes were reused after only 3 years.

Yeah, true. Maybe a better number to use would have been after 3, since ideally no students from a 2007 team were on a 2011 team (07, 08, 09, 10), that's kinda what I was shooting for.

[notmattlythgoe]

My argument against the long box/tube being fabric for bumpers is FIRST hasn't been rolling the cloth that is given to the rookie teams each year. They fold it and put it in the rookie tote, so why would that change this year if they were giving it to everybody?

[jvriezen]

My argument against the long box/tube being fabric for bumpers is FIRST hasn't been rolling the cloth that is given to the rookie teams each year. They fold it and put it in the rookie tote, so why would that change this year if they were giving it to everybody?

It's a legitimate argument, but perhaps the reason is that the number of rookie teams is just a small fraction of the number of total teams. When a process scales up, it can be the case that alternative logistics is more efficient/cheaper. Fabric suppliers have logistics to produce orders for arbitrary lengths on rolls for shipping efficiently. For rookie only, perhaps FIRST ordered full bolts and did their own cutting/folding for a the smaller number of rookies.

[notmattlythgoe]

It's a legitimate argument, but perhaps the reason is that the number of rookie teams is just a small fraction of the number of total teams. When a process scales up, it can be the case that alternative logistics is more efficient/cheaper. Fabric suppliers have logistics to produce orders for arbitrary lengths on rolls for shipping efficiently. For rookie only, perhaps FIRST ordered full bolts and did their own cutting/folding for a the smaller number of rookies.

Its definitely possible. It just seems unlikely, to me, that FIRST would choose to give the items for the bumpers, given the fact that all of the items involved in making them are easily accessible to teams. Why give the items when FIRST can just say that a specific cloth is required for use on the bumpers.

[BigJ]

To quote this thread:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=131453


Not sure if this means anything, it's definitely odd, here's the snippet in question:



I don't see any purpose for this to be written other than to:

Hint at an ice related game
Watch us freak out on CD

Yeah, probably the latter.

I would guess it's just weird artifacts from a WYSIWYG editor that they use for blog posts.

[Monochron]

Figured I should throw in my prediction on "the long box" as well.

"Rods" with which to construct a goal or game piece
Linear motion construction pieces (thinking along the lines of this year's game lending itself to one)
Random metal pieces like rail. (Being that some random company donated a ton)

[Tem1514 Mentor]

The basic kit of parts sure looks pretty common to me with item D being the only mystery.

From the website(s);

2015 Kickoff Kits will consist of the following items for all teams (sizes and weights are approximate):

A) Tote: With all of donated items that we usually get like CIM's, wire, battery ends, heat shrink, two sided tape and so on.

B) Battery

C) Best guess this is the new roboRIO control system. (September FRC blog post)

D) The Mystery box of one set of items, collectively 3 in. x 3 in. x60 in., 6 lbs.
Just about anything but a good guess would be something game specific like game piece(s) or a tow trailer kit, may be a banner or table cloth. We will have to wait and see. The bag and tag items :)

2015 Kickoff Kits will include the following additional items for Rookie teams only:

E) Tote: with Battery Charger, Classmate Netbook, one Joystick, one Gamepad, USB Key to Image Classmate, Set of assorted pneumatic components (compressor, air tanks, fittings, tubing, valves, PTFE tape, pressure switch, gauge, and regulator)

F) Battery

Teams who did not opt out of the Drive Base Kit will also receive the following item:

G) AMU drive base

[kjohnson]

Figured I should throw in my prediction on "the long box" as well.

"Rods" with which to construct a goal or game piece
Linear motion construction pieces (thinking along the lines of this year's game lending itself to one)
Random metal pieces like rail. (Being that some random company donated a ton)


The three of those are my guess as well.

I've been keeping up with this thread and have a few observations/assumptions:

The 60" box isn't fabric.
Pool noodles aren't in the kit.
FIRST wouldn't waste resources shipping teams items that are readily available (COTS) unless they have been donated
The 60" box is a set of items. As others have said, there is no need for a 60" box for items that could be packed in more efficient ways. These items are most definitely close to 60" in length. Frank likes to troll us but not to the point of spending more money due to inefficient packing.
Foam balls don't ship compressed (2006, 2012)
Inflatable things don't ship inflated (2004, 2007, 2008, 2011, 2014)
There will not be 3 alliances or more than 6 robots in a match. FIRST has made too much of an investment in the current field perimeter, including fields owned by districts.

[MrRoboSteve]

All that is to say I would not be at all surprised if bumpers were standardized, and even increased in size. Three pool noodle height, perhaps? That would also increase protection, as well as the visibility of the (larger) team numbers, both of which would be highly desirable. I'll bet that the light 29" box is also bumper material.

My thought is that this is unlikely. I didn't see any damage this year on robots that could be attributed to issues with the two noodle bumper, and haven't heard any discussions about issues with number size.

It's not clear to me what on the current bumpers could be standardized further.

Plywood is commonly available and must be cut to size to fit the robot design.

Same for pool noodles and fabric -- commonly available and must be cut to size.

Numbers are commonly available and vary somewhat by team for stylistic reasons.

Remember that the veteran KOP contains items from the following categories:

. items that replenish stock that every team needs (batteries, motors, 2015 control system)
. donated items with sufficient quantity for everyone (e.g., Igus, 3M, etc)
. game specific items

I believe the long box falls into the third category.

[Orion.DeYoe]

It might be possible that VEX donated some Versaframe components to the kit. The long box is probably the right weight for 2-3 sticks of 2x1 or 4-6 sticks of 1x1.
Someone should check the quantities and weights.

[blazeflipper]

I don't think the height of the robot will change for the same reason the perimeter won't change, if you make robots too tall they won't fit through doors. I believe box D is a game piece even if it is as simple as a rod, we are always given at least one game piece. Just like Frisbee's everyone has easy access to one but we were still given three. it won't be a ball game so I don't think it will be baseball, but it could still be a baseball bat, using the bat as a game piece could be fun.

[Anthony Galea]

It might be possible that VEX donated some Versaframe components to the kit. The long box is probably the right weight for 2-3 sticks of 2x1 or 4-6 sticks of 1x1.
Someone should check the quantities and weights.

From http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexpro/structure/versaframe.html
Both are 59"
1x1: 0.90 lbs
2x1: 3.28 lbs

4 2x1 and 1 1x1 is 14.02 lbs. Too light.

[BrendanB]

From http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexpro/structure/versaframe.html
Both are 59"
1x1: 0.90 lbs
2x1: 3.28 lbs

4 2x1 and 1 1x1 is 14.02 lbs. Too light.

4 pieces of 1x1 would be 3.6lbs. 1 piece of 2x1 and 2 pieces of 1x1 is 5.08lbs. Plus the weight of the box/packaging would put you at about 6lbs.

I highly doubt its Versaframe but one can always hope! :rolleyes:

[notmattlythgoe]

I don't think the height of the robot will change for the same reason the perimeter won't change, if you make robots too tall they won't fit through doors. I believe box D is a game piece even if it is as simple as a rod, we are always given at least one game piece. Just like Frisbee's everyone has easy access to one but we were still given three. it won't be a ball game so I don't think it will be baseball, but it could still be a baseball bat, using the bat as a game piece could be fun.

Who says it won't be a ball game? There were 3 years in a row recently that the game used "balls".

[mklinker]

There will not be 3 alliances or more than 6 robots in a match. FIRST has made too much of an investment in the current field perimeter, including fields owned by districts.
[/LIST]

I think that this is faulty logic. What if there were 3 alliances of two teams each with one member of each alliance stationed at each end of the field? This would require NO field modifications whatsoever.

[Derpancakes]

To quote this thread:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=131453


Not sure if this means anything, it's definitely odd, here's the snippet in question:



I don't see any purpose for this to be written other than to:

Hint at an ice related game
Watch us freak out on CD

Yeah, probably the latter.

They're catching on.. After last year's picture title stating that there was no hint (and there actually was :/), I'd agree that this is a very clever red herring.

[blazeflipper]

Who says it won't be a ball game? There were 3 years in a row recently that the game used "balls".

If your referring to 2009, the "Cells" were not considered balls by the GDC, because they were hollow and very squishy teams could not manipulate them as they would say a basketball or soccer ball. But, as we know that didn't work, teams still had ball intake systems very similar to others, as well as a lot of other things that year we just ignore that in FRC history.

[kjohnson]

I think that this is faulty logic. What if there were 3 alliances of two teams each with one member of each alliance stationed at each end of the field? This would require NO field modifications whatsoever.

This thread is full of "what if." What is actually practical? Just because it is possible doesn't make it practical. FRC has come a long way since two team alliances were last seen in 2004. Going back to two team alliances would be exactly that, moving backwards. We just barely moved to four team alliances at the Championship, stepping back is not the direction this program is moving.

[kjohnson]

If your referring to 2009, the "Cells" were not considered balls by the GDC, because they were hollow and very squishy teams could not manipulate them as they would say a basketball or soccer ball. But, as we know that didn't work, teams still had ball intake systems very similar to others, as well as a lot of other things that year we just ignore that in FRC history.

Let's review. Balls in the past ten years:


2004: Playground balls and large inflated balls
2006: Poof balls
2008: Track balls
2009: Orbit balls (up to you if you actually consider this a ball)
2010: Soccer balls
2012: Foam basketballs
2014: Exercise balls

So, if you ignore Orbit balls (or the entire 2009 season :deadhorse: ), there have not been back to back ball games since before the 3v3 era. I won't go so far as to rule out balls this year, but it is highly unlikely.

Sorry for the back to back post but these are completely different topics.

[hadynbrouwer98]

could be a flag pole for capture the flag?

[Electronica1]

It could be a stack-able game piece.

[Shifter]

From the reference to "swing":

box D ("sizes and weights are approximate"):

16 standard tennis balls in one of these (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Tennis-Tube-21-Ball/11303689) which can be fixed at several points around the field perimeter and act as ball dispensers (http://img.ehowcdn.com/615x200/ds-photo/getty/article/142/62/94076494_XS.jpg). They can also be used in hand by the field reset crew.

weight = 2.1 ounce/ball x 16 balls + 2.1 lb tube = 4.2 lbs vs 6 lbs stated for KoP box D
shipping size = 4" x 4" x 49" vs 3" x 3" x 60" for KoP box D

box C:

8 oversized tennis balls (http://www.amazon.ca/LSD-Signature-Supplies-Outdoor-Cricket/dp/B00PGTP4OC/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1418313319&sr=8-3&keywords=giant+tennis+ball)

weight = 1.15 lbs/ball x 8 balls = 9.2 lbs vs 9 lbs stated for KoP box C
shipping size = 20" x 20" x 20" vs 29" x 22" x 22" for KoP box C


total qty = 16 + 8 = "24" game pieces

Volcano Volley...

[Mr V]

To everyone that keeps saying that the 60" box contains either bumper fabric, or a bunch of balls stacked up I say no chance for that. A 3 x 3 x 60 box is going to be a big pain to ship since it can't lay flat on a standard pallet without hanging over. Having it hang over the pallet would increase the cost and the likelihood of damage to the items. As much as Frank likes to troll the CD community he is not going to have the KOP team box something in a manner that will make it more expensive to ship and increase the likelihood of it being damaged in shipment just to troll the members of the CD community.

So what every that item(s) is you can be pretty certain that it is close to that 60" length and that there is not a practical way to ship it in anything smaller.

So it is either a game piece, a field element that can't be easily/economically reproduced locally or some part that will need to be used on the robot in substantially the same configuration as shipped.

[peirvine]

Noooooo

Were you loony for LUNACY in 2009? #tbt #omgrobots @FRCTeams
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4mCm4IIUAAedBc.jpg


Could they be hinting at another Lunacy type game again?

Source: FIRSTweets

[jman4747]

To everyone that keeps saying that the 60" box contains either bumper fabric, or a bunch of balls stacked up I say no chance for that. A 3 x 3 x 60 box is going to be a big pain to ship since it can't lay flat on a standard pallet without hanging over. Having it hang over the pallet would increase the cost and the likelihood of damage to the items. As much as Frank likes to troll the CD community he is not going to have the KOP team box something in a manner that will make it more expensive to ship and increase the likelihood of it being damaged in shipment just to troll the members of the CD community.

So what every that item(s) is you can be pretty certain that it is close to that 60" length and that there is not a practical way to ship it in anything smaller.

So it is either a game piece, a field element that can't be easily/economically reproduced locally or some part that will need to be used on the robot in substantially the same configuration as shipped.

Defiantly.

I think the hard part is what is in the larger tote (box C)? And it's not the control system. Why would you need a box larger than the main tote for just one set of the 2015 control system parts? Much like box D box C is very large and usually isn't there, thus whatever is in there needs to be. So either a game object or field element. I think it will be interesting to see which each of these boxes is. Maybe one is a field piece and one is a game object or both are field pieces and the game piece is inflatable or both are game objects.

[jman4747]

Noooooo



Could they be hinting at another Lunacy type game again?

Source: FIRSTweets


Okay THAT is trolloloollolool.... Not funny Manchester.:mad:

[Greg Needel]

While it is fun to guess that it has something to do with the game, the only thing I can think of is that it is raw building materials.

It is not that hard of a stretch to think that some sponsor donated a bunch of 1x1 or other profile aluminum to every team.


It would be a welcome addition to the kit, since many rookie teams put the drive base together and then say "now what"

[mman1506]

While it is fun to guess that it has something to do with the game, the only thing I can think of is that it is raw building materials.

It is not that hard of a stretch to think that some sponsor donated a bunch of 1x1 or other profile aluminum to every team.


It would be a welcome addition to the kit, since many rookie teams put the drive base together and then say "now what"

............

[jman4747]

While it is fun to guess that it has something to do with the game, the only thing I can think of is that it is raw building materials.

It is not that hard of a stretch to think that some sponsor donated a bunch of 1x1 or other profile aluminum to every team.


It would be a welcome addition to the kit, since many rookie teams put the drive base together and then say "now what"

I think this would be good and the size makes since but wouldn't a sponsor that big get some sort of recognition prior to kickoff? I do think however that if it isn't a game specific thing that raw materials is a likely option.

Edit: So I read your signature just now...

[Caleb Sykes]

I computed density for the 22x22x29 and compared to density of a case of pool noodles shipping size and weight from amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Tundra-TWLN36-12-Water-Noodles-12-Pack/dp/B00J5OO36O/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1418226503&sr=8-4&keywords=pool+noodles&pebp=1418226525796

Almost identical density. 64 29" noodles? Enough for two sets of bumpers for a competition and a practice bot times two. Not nearly as convinced about this. Seems like a lot noodles unless the mfgr makes them 58" and they cut the boxes in half.

Otherwise there is a lot of air in that box.

By far the most reasonable explanation is a roll with two or more colors of fabric. Spooling fabric is the quickest, safest and most practicable way to package and ship large amounts of material. Six pounds, including the center roll and the box, is totally within reason.

It's been clear to me for a while that bumpers are an area of the competition where two problems are developing for FRC. One is the constant frustration and occasional danger that is caused by teams that come to competition with incomplete or insufficient bumpers. It is often the last thing that young teams consider in build season, and with the goal being to get all teams to pass inspection, I've seen questionable bumpers okayed for play. The other is teams that are using bumpers to gain advantage through materials and construction that augment the original purpose (protection). See this year's sailcloth experiments.

All that is to say I would not be at all surprised if bumpers were standardized, and even increased in size. Three pool noodle height, perhaps? That would also increase protection, as well as the visibility of the (larger) team numbers, both of which would be highly desirable. I'll bet that the light 29" box is also bumper material.

Hmm...
Large amounts of fabric plus large amounts of pool noodles can only mean one thing: GIANT BUMPERS, every robot must be completely covered by bumpers. If we get an arm game like some teams have been predicting, it will probably play out something like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgeyexOAOIg).

[Mr V]

While it is fun to guess that it has something to do with the game, the only thing I can think of is that it is raw building materials.

It is not that hard of a stretch to think that some sponsor donated a bunch of 1x1 or other profile aluminum to every team.


It would be a welcome addition to the kit, since many rookie teams put the drive base together and then say "now what"

Hmmm, this said by the Co-founder a company that sells extrusions???

I agree that raw building materials would be welcomed, particularly for rookie teams. At the partner conferences a couple of years ago I did talk with a member of the KOP team and they were looking into trying to include a voucher for Metal Supermarkets. I responded Pleeeease, Pleeeease, Pleeeeeeease!!!! Primarily because of those rookie teams that don't know what to do after the kit bot is assembled and many have spent all or the vast majority of their budget on the registration fee.

[Aren Siekmeier]

............

Glad I wasn't the only one thinking that....

[Arpan]

While it is fun to guess that it has something to do with the game, the only thing I can think of is that it is raw building materials.

It is not that hard of a stretch to think that some sponsor donated a bunch of 1x1 or other profile aluminum to every team.


It would be a welcome addition to the kit, since many rookie teams put the drive base together and then say "now what"


"some sponsor"

[pfreivald]

Full swing = monkey bars.
Vespas are wasps, who rarely touch the floor.

Inescapable, iron-clad conclusion: The 60" box is a sample of the monkey bars that all robots will have to swing on as they "pack up" things and "take [them] back" to score points. You don't need a Vespa because you're not allowed to touch the floor. :D

[dellagd]

This thread is full of "what if." What is actually practical? Just because it is possible doesn't make it practical. FRC has come a long way since two team alliances were last seen in 2004. Going back to two team alliances would be exactly that, moving backwards. We just barely moved to four team alliances at the Championship, stepping back is not the direction this program is moving.

Agreed. FIRST is all about cooperating with your alliance, why would they make it impossible to even talk to them during a match?

[daltore]

I kind of like the idea of ring toss. The box D has two, three, or four scoring pegs, and box C contains some large plastic donuts as well as standardized bases for the pegs.

My other thought was the game will be Pacman, and box D contains a segment of the barrier (which you can drive over but will get a penalty), and box C contains all the cheese. Robot-to-robot contact will be illegal across alliances with the exception of scoring cherries on the other robot.

[notmattlythgoe]

100 years ago the US Coast Guard was established.
50 years ago the first nuclear air craft carrier was launched.
40 years ago the Monitor National Marine Sanctuary was established as the first national marine sanctuary in the US.

Obviously the 3"x3"x60" box is a tube of sample water for the water game...

[Bob Steele]

Noooooo



Could they be hinting at another Lunacy type game again?

Source: FIRSTweets

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
TAKE IT AWAY!!! TAKE IT AWAY!!!

[Abhishek R]

If anything, the tweet from FIRST confirms that the game won't have Regolith because that's too obvious of a hint. I think they're just messing with us.

[Electronica1]

What if the box/tube is the game piece? (like it literally is the game piece, not what ever is inside of it)

[jvriezen]

What if the box/tube is the game piece? (like it literally is the game piece, not what ever is inside of it)

Intriguing idea. Maybe there is nothing inside of it.

[catacon]

What if the box/tube is the game piece? (like it literally is the game piece, not what ever is inside of it)

Maybe Amazon has gotten lazy and asked FIRST to create a game that would force students to develop ways of moving and stacking 3x3x60" packages. The championship teams get a contract with Amazon for their designs.




:yikes:

[jee7s]

Hmmm, this said by the Co-founder a company that sells extrusions???


This doesn't quite add up...at least not for aluminum extrusions that Rev sells. A 3"x3"x60" package that weighs 6lb has an average density of 0.011 lb/in3. If that object is made of aluminum (nominal density 0.0975 lb/in3), then it would have to be about 90% air. Even 1"x1" square aluminum tubing with 1/16" wall would be about double that density. But, a large post with a thin wall could make those numbers work. Or even aluminum extrusion with a lot of packing material. Or wiffle balls, or wiffle bats, or any of a number of things that this thread has already mentioned.

[Mr V]

This doesn't quite add up...at least not for aluminum extrusions that Rev sells. A 3"x3"x60" package that weighs 6lb has an average density of 0.011 lb/in3. If that object is made of aluminum (nominal density 0.0975 lb/in3), then it would have to be about 90% air. Even 1"x1" square aluminum tubing with 1/16" wall would be about double that density. But, a large post with a thin wall could make those numbers work. Or even aluminum extrusion with a lot of packing material. Or wiffle balls, or wiffle bats, or any of a number of things that this thread has already mentioned.

I didn't say the weight thing added up, just that it was interesting that the Co-Founder of a company that sells extrusions suggested that it could be building material, ie extrusion.

As I've said before I do not believe in any way shape or form that FIRST would put something in a box that will make it more difficult, expensive and damage prone to ship just to troll CD. Honestly they have better things to spend time and money on. What ever is in the box if it is indeed in a box is in that size of box because it won't fit in a box that is easier to ship.

[Abhishek R]

I didn't say the weight thing added up, just that it was interesting that the Co-Founder of a company that sells extrusions suggested that it could be building material, ie extrusion.

As I've said before I do not believe in any way shape or form that FIRST would put something in a box that will make it more difficult, expensive and damage prone to ship just to troll CD. Honestly they have better things to spend time and money on. What ever is in the box if it is indeed in a box is in that size of box because it won't fit in a box that is easier to ship.

I agree, but it's just hard to think of what that could possibly be. To have a game piece with those dimensions...it would be incredibly difficult to manipulate.

I'm gonna guess it's part of the field structure in some way that's hard to build/replicate, but I wouldn't hold my breath over it.

[cad321]

Have been following the thread quite closely and just my two cents but from what I've read thus far, it won't be bumper materials (too easy for teams to get on their own) and I think it will be a game object. My best guesses would be either a decahedron made from some kind of tubing and special injection molded corners to assemble, or a pole and flag for capture the flag and box C or A contains a weighted base so it won't fall over easily.

[MrForbes]

After following the thread for the 200+ posts so far, I best like the suggestion that it might be some donated extrusions.

[Thad House]

Remember that the vex 2x1 is .100 wall, and the vex 1x1 is .04 wall. It wouldnt be too bad if they had donated some of that, and the densities work fairly well.

[Dunngeon]

The three of those are my guess as well.

I've been keeping up with this thread and have a few observations/assumptions:

The 60" box isn't fabric.
Pool noodles aren't in the kit.
FIRST wouldn't waste resources shipping teams items that are readily available (COTS) unless they have been donated
The 60" box is a set of items. As others have said, there is no need for a 60" box for items that could be packed in more efficient ways. These items are most definitely close to 60" in length. Frank likes to troll us but not to the point of spending more money due to inefficient packing.
Foam balls don't ship compressed (2006, 2012)
Inflatable things don't ship inflated (2004, 2007, 2008, 2011, 2014)
There will not be 3 alliances or more than 6 robots in a match. FIRST has made too much of an investment in the current field perimeter, including fields owned by districts.


See Andymark's website,

This is a new version of the FRC Field Perimeter used in the past years' FRC games.

FIRST® has determined that this Field Perimeter has the ‘fit and function’ necessary for use in the 2015 FRC. Any changes required for use in subsequent years will be the responsibility of the purchaser. AndyMark, not FIRST, is responsible for product quality, warranty, safety, and all other issues related to this product.

The intent of offering this perimeter is to provide hardware for FRC District and Regional events, FRC teams and communities to have a high quality FRC field for competition, expo, practice, and demonstration purposes.

This perimeter includes side rails, gates, alliance stations, and four (4) shipping crates. The perimeter does not include field carpet, electronics nor the game specific items for each year.

http://www.andymark.com/Field-p/am-2800.htm

[dellagd]

See Andymark's website,

http://www.andymark.com/Field-p/am-2800.htm

Are suggesting that there could be one member of each of three alliances on each side? I'm not really sure, you just highlighted a bunch of things...

My response is this: Don't you, I don't know, like being able to talk to your alliance partners? I do a lot during a match. I think FIRST shares those same ideals of cooperation, so that setup doesn't make much sense to me at all.

I mean, what would you do, wear headsets? Like those would last a few matches :P

[Abhishek R]

Are suggesting that there could be one member of each of three alliances on each side? I'm not really sure, you just highlighted a bunch of things...

My response is this: Don't you, I don't know, like being able to talk to your alliance partners? I do a lot during a match. I think FIRST shares those same ideals of cooperation, so that setup doesn't make much sense to me at all.

I mean, what would you do, wear headsets? Like those would last a few matches :P

Yeah, that's why I think a setup with two sides will be the norm for next year. With the current perimeter and after years of experimentation, the best setup for a spectator sport seems to be a wide field, so I don't think there will be a large change in the number of teams or alliances - I'm gonna go off on a limb and say there will be 2 alliances with 3 teams each.

[Whippet]

I mean, what would you do, wear headsets?

That could be hazardous because teams would be unable to hear directions from referees and the FTA.

[Greg Needel]

As much as we (REV) would have love to give every team a few pieces of our extrusion, it is just too much for us right now as a start up. Hopefully in the future we can offer that kind of support to FIRST teams.

I still suspect that it is raw building materials and am happy that there are companies that can support FIRST in such a big way.

[who716]

what could that 3x3x6o be i highly doubt it would fit in the dimensions of the robot as a whole piece so i think it either something you can cut down and use or its a field element

[MrTechCenter]

That could be hazardous because teams would be unable to hear directions from referees and the FTA.

Not if you use the kind where one ear is uncovered. As a coach, I always thought it would be so cool to use headsets like they do at NFL games and have like a "box" with a better view of the field and all of that jazz, but that will never happen, nor does it need to. The game runs perfectly without all of those bells and whistles.

[GaryVoshol]

That could be hazardous because teams would be unable to hear directions from referees and the FTA.

Bah. They don't listen anyway. :ahh:

[pfreivald]

I ran a Deaf team for two years. You figure it out pretty quick.

[IndySam]

I ran a Deaf team for two years. You figure it out pretty quick.

Is it that much different from dealing with regular high school boys :)

[g_sawchuk]

Is it that much different from dealing with regular high school boys :)
Insulted.

[MrForbes]

Headsets at a robot competition can be fun.

http://selectric.org/nurc11/pics/control.jpg

ps. Water game!

[Tem1514 Mentor]

At last I figured it out and it is what FIRST is so good at providing us;)

Of course it is another water game.

[pfreivald]

Is it that much different from dealing with regular high school boys :)

Yes: They pay attention when you wave your arms in a panicked manner!

I was, of course, kidding about robots not being allowed to touch the floor, but a student pointed out the phrase, "not sure if you heard" and replied, "everybody's heard that the bird is the word!" Birds don't touch the ground; hypothesis confirmed!

[Dunngeon]

Are suggesting that there could be one member of each of three alliances on each side? I'm not really sure, you just highlighted a bunch of things...

My response is this: Don't you, I don't know, like being able to talk to your alliance partners? I do a lot during a match. I think FIRST shares those same ideals of cooperation, so that setup doesn't make much sense to me at all.

I mean, what would you do, wear headsets? Like those would last a few matches :P

I highlighted this,

There will not be 3 alliances or more than 6 robots in a match. FIRST has made too much of an investment in the current field perimeter, including fields owned by districts

Which says he thinks the amount of alliances and teams on the field will stay the same

Then I highlighted this, from AndyMark

Field Perimeter has the ‘fit and function’ necessary for use in the 2015 FRC.
http://www.andymark.com/Field-p/am-2800.htm

Which makes me concur with the above statement, especially if you look at the product photo

[mrnoble]

I won't completely discount some other possible arrangement than the 3v3 we've had since forever, but it's unlikely. Very.

I still think the possibilities for the mystery box are, from most to least likely:

1) Bumper materials, due to standardization
2) Raw materials, such as a sample of VexPro's aluminum
3) Game piece

[jvriezen]

The video at the AndyMark field page clearly shows that the partitions between the alliance stations have elliptical holes cut in them. Is this for communication between drivers? Or to get all you guys talking, could there be some object that needs to be passed from station to station, such that only one alliance partner at a time is permitted to do something, perhaps? Or maybe, if there are three alliances of two bots each, and the holes are so that you can cooperate with your opponents ;)

Could this be related to the 'something different' that Frank alluded to a couple months back?

http://www.andymark.com/Field-p/am-2800.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C9rKZAxsu8#t=71

[Bryan Herbst]

The video at the AndyMark field page clearly shows that the partitions between the alliance stations have elliptical holes cut in them. Is this for communication between drivers? Or to get all you guys talking, could there be some object that needs to be passed from station to station, such that only one alliance partner at a time is permitted to do something, perhaps? Or maybe, if there are three alliances of two bots each, and the holes are so that you can cooperate with your opponents ;)

Could this be related to the 'something different' that Frank alluded to a couple months back?

http://www.andymark.com/Field-p/am-2800.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C9rKZAxsu8#t=71

My interpretation was that it was to facilitate communication.

The current field has nothing there. My best guess is that it was added to help minimize noise between teams, allowing coaches to talk to their drivers with less shouting perhaps. The hole would allow the drivers to still talk to each other when needed.

Keep in mind that the not every event will be using the new fields. Last I heard, FIRST will be slowly rolling out the new field over the next few years to avoid dumping a metric boatload of cash on new fields all at once. I won't rule out the possibility of retrofitting existing fields with those pieces, but I wouldn't count on anything in the new field being a clue for the game.

[Squillo]

So far, the ideas I like are:
- poles of some sort, possibly for capture the flag or something we haven't even begun to imagine,
- golf clubs,
- hula hoops (bend into a circle and connect), Giant ring toss? Onto other robots or a field rack?

Not pool noodles or fabric. Probably not field surface. Not a sizing box. Maybe long poles for constructing something, though.

Just my thoughts.

[SpaceBiz]

As stated on the first webpage...


2015 Kickoff Kits will consist of the following items for all teams (sizes and weights are approximate):

A) One set of items, collectively, 27 in. x 17 in. x 17 in., 60 lbs.

B) One item, 8 in. x 3 in. x 7 in., 14 lbs.

C) One set of items, collectively, 29 in. x 22 in. x 22 in., 9 lbs.

D) One set of items, collectively 3 in. x 3 in. x 60 in., 6 lbs.

2015 Kickoff Kits will include the following additional items for Rookie teams only:

E) One item, 27 in. x 17 in. x 13 in., 26 lbs.

F) One item, 8 in. x 3 in. x 7 in., 14 lbs.

Teams who did not opt out of the Drive Base Kit will also receive the following item:

G) One item, 34 in. x 6 in. x 7 in., 24 lbs.


I know a previous thread said these confirm a hockey game, but if not a hockey game, what could the items be?

More specifically, is package D a new surface? If so are we going to see some new kind of exotic surface like we did in Lunacy? If so, what could it be?

[75vs1885]

I've been thinking for years what kind of game they could do with rods, maybe this is the year I find out.

pole vaulting

[75vs1885]

Correlating with the 2014 kit, the 27 in. x 17 in. x ## in. items are probably totes. I'm curious what the 29 in. x 22 in. x 22 in., 9 lbs. item is: it's large and very light.

might be a box containing all the new controls system....more than just the roborio

[cgmv123]

might be a box containing all the new controls system....more than just the roborio

Box is too big to be just that. The new control system is tiny.

[SJaladi]

C) One set of items, collectively, 29 in. x 22 in. x 22 in., 9 lbs.


Based on this schematic of the field FIRST approved for Andymark to sell (http://files.andymark.com/am-2800+FRC+Field+full.pdf) if box C contains a stack of 21"x21" plates to make some kind of alternate field surface it would take exactly 465 plates to cover the field. Perhaps box C contains a sample of this material for each team to practice on. I will admit though that such small plates are probably not the ideal way to cover the entire field with an alternate material.

[GeeTwo]

Package A appears to be a small, heavy tote. It would contain all of the motors pneumatics, controllers, and probably most of the new control system.

Package B looks about right for the roboRIO and perhaps a few accessories.

Package C appears to be a large, very light tote -- the average density is only 0.02 times that of water! Unless it has a lot of empty space (perhaps for "local sponsor items"), it must consist of some very lightweight items, such as, oh, foam rubber or styrene. Maybe bumpers won't use pool noodles this year, though why would we need 8 cubic feet / 60 gallons of it? Or maybe we need 250 to 300 nerf balls for practice?). Perhaps it is mostly just an empty box, which would suggest not the regolith, but the trailer cart of Lunacy into which we must dump, er, nerf balls.

Package D is the mystery rod. Assuming it's not deceptive packaging, it's something that can't be made much shorter than 60", so it consists of one or more straight, stiff pieces. It's too long for a baseball bat, too narrow for a cricket bat, and too straight for a hockey stick. It's way too small for a reasonable sample of an unusual "carpet" material, and way too wide for bumper material (A 15-inch wide strip rolled up would cover the bumpers we've used for the past few years with a few inches to staple to the wood.) Bumper filler does not make any sense, unless the bumpers would be about half as big as recent years, or the material is vacuum-packed. My best guess is a very long, straight game piece.

Rookie Teams:
Package E is another small, not quite-so-heavy tote
Package F looks like a "clamshell" mini-notebook driver station

And of course, package G is the 2015 KOP drive system. A few have noted it's the same dimensions as in 2014, but given the necessary items (c-channel or perhaps angle of the longest reasonable dimension, gearboxes, tires, misc. small hardware), the approximate size is pretty much going to be the same from year to year.

I'm planning to research some Lunacy strategies, focusing more on the "crossing the T" problem of putting balls in your opponent's trailer without allowing equal opportunity, rather than the regolith.

[Bryce Paputa]

Package A appears to be a small, heavy tote. It would contain all of the motors pneumatics, controllers, and probably most of the new control system.

Package B looks about right for the roboRIO and perhaps a few accessories.

Package C appears to be a large, very light tote -- the average density is only 0.02 times that of water! Unless it has a lot of empty space (perhaps for "local sponsor items"), it must consist of some very lightweight items, such as, oh, foam rubber or styrene. Maybe bumpers won't use pool noodles this year, though why would we need 8 cubic feet / 60 gallons of it? Or maybe we need 250 to 300 nerf balls for practice?). Perhaps it is mostly just an empty box, which would suggest not the regolith, but the trailer cart of Lunacy into which we must dump, er, nerf balls.

Package D is the mystery rod. Assuming it's not deceptive packaging, it's something that can't be made much shorter than 60", so it consists of one or more straight, stiff pieces. It's too long for a baseball bat, too narrow for a cricket bat, and too straight for a hockey stick. It's way too small for a reasonable sample of an unusual "carpet" material, and way too wide for bumper material (A 15-inch wide strip rolled up would cover the bumpers we've used for the past few years with a few inches to staple to the wood.) Bumper filler does not make any sense, unless the bumpers would be about half as big as recent years, or the material is vacuum-packed. My best guess is a very long, straight game piece.

Rookie Teams:
Package E is another small, not quite-so-heavy tote
Package F looks like a "clamshell" mini-notebook driver station

And of course, package G is the 2015 KOP drive system. A few have noted it's the same dimensions as in 2014, but given the necessary items (c-channel or perhaps angle of the longest reasonable dimension, gearboxes, tires, misc. small hardware), the approximate size is pretty much going to be the same from year to year.

I'm planning to research some Lunacy strategies, focusing more on the "crossing the T" problem of putting balls in your opponent's trailer without allowing equal opportunity, rather than the regolith.

The two small 14 pound packages are definitely batteries.

[devg29]

ok so we know it said one SET of items, COLLECTIVELY [the said dimensions], so (and yeah I get this was probably already proposed a thousand times over) but I think it could very well be the game elements. Think about it. They could be a bunch of cubes, balls, or other shapes, and being game pieces, they would have to be built with sturdy material, so they would add up to 6 lbs. pretty quickly. I also thought it could be rods that would need to be transferred (again, these would be game pieces). The good thing is there's only 20 days until we know what's in the box :eek:

[GeeTwo]

Based on this schematic of the field FIRST approved for Andymark to sell (http://files.andymark.com/am-2800+FRC+Field+full.pdf) if box C contains a stack of 21"x21" plates to make some kind of alternate field surface it would take exactly 465 plates to cover the field. Perhaps box C contains a sample of this material for each team to practice on. I will admit though that such small plates are probably not the ideal way to cover the entire field with an alternate material.

Sorry, this is not nearly heavy enough for flooring that would stand up under FRC conditions. The AIR in a 29x22x22 box weighs nearly 10 oz, so this stuff is only about 14 times as heavy as air - including any packaging!

[hadynbrouwer98]

in the box 3x3x60 could be a hockey net in pieces that you have to put together? hockey game confirmed