View Full Version : 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
The whole concept of last year and the sports mentioned is the assist
seamushroom
27-12-2014, 18:22
Two Options:
Option 1) Since FLL is focusing on recycling too next year it has to either be Lego themed, or Entirely built of LEGOs
Option 2) Recycling is good for the earth, and the earth is mostly water, so it has to be a water game!
Canon reeves
27-12-2014, 19:16
With all of this talk about hockey I was questioning what they replace the carpet with, but then I realized that to play hockey, it doesn't have to be a puck. They could keep the same carpet and use small foam balls, which could be manipulated outside of the frame perimeter?
Jacob Bendicksen
27-12-2014, 19:45
With all of this talk about hockey I was questioning what they replace the carpet with, but then I realized that to play hockey, it doesn't have to be a puck. They could keep the same carpet and use small foam balls, which could be manipulated outside of the frame perimeter?
It's also possible that they keep the carpet, but do something to make robots a little more 'slippery' on the field...mandatory Omni wheels or something like that. I'm not saying I like the idea (I happen to dislike it), but if the GDC wanted to make the game a little icier, it's possible. As far as game pieces go, I think a hockey game would be more likely to have lacrosse balls (http://www.amazon.com/Lacrosse-Balls-NCAA-Certified-Yellow/dp/B006JANLLU/ref=sr_1_1?s=team-sports&ie=UTF8&qid=1419727680&sr=1-1) or something similar - they're a lot more durable.
XenObliv
27-12-2014, 19:49
Well if the game was indeed a rendition of Hockey I would like to see FIRST reuse the regolith surface from 2009 Lunacy.
Well if the game was indeed a rendition of Hockey I would like to see FIRST reuse the regolith surface from 2009 Lunacy.
No you wouldn't. No way. You weren't around, so I'll just tell you the characteristics (or rather, where to find a piece so you can figure it out).
1) slick, with FRC wheels.
2) Degraded over time (so the floor could get stickier through the event)
3) Became a Van de Graff generator of fried electronics
4) Difficult to transport
5) robots slid all over the place
6) Can be found in many a public restroom: on the walls
XenObliv
27-12-2014, 20:15
No you wouldn't. No way. You weren't around, so I'll just tell you the characteristics (or rather, where to find a piece so you can figure it out).
1) slick, with FRC wheels.
2) Degraded over time (so the floor could get stickier through the event)
3) Became a Van de Graff generator of fried electronics
4) Difficult to transport
5) robots slid all over the place
6) Can be found in many a public restroom: on the walls
Yet hockey isn't hockey without ice or something similar. Lunacy was exciting to watch due the large variable of the field. In the past it challenged every team not just rookies. Personally I would like to see a game that is so different from the past games that it sets a high bar for the games to come. Because "Change is coming."
Yet hockey isn't hockey without ice or something similar.
The ISBHF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Street_and_Ball_Hockey_Federation) would like to have word with you (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_hockey).
PVCpirate
27-12-2014, 20:36
It's also possible that they keep the carpet, but do something to make robots a little more 'slippery' on the field...mandatory Omni wheels or something like that. I'm not saying I like the idea (I happen to dislike it), but if the GDC wanted to make the game a little icier, it's possible. As far as game pieces go, I think a hockey game would be more likely to have lacrosse balls (http://www.amazon.com/Lacrosse-Balls-NCAA-Certified-Yellow/dp/B006JANLLU/ref=sr_1_1?s=team-sports&ie=UTF8&qid=1419727680&sr=1-1) or something similar - they're a lot more durable.
IMO a game with lacrosse balls would be very unsafe for spectators and volunteers unless there were extensive restrictions to keep them on the ground or we bring back the big nets from 2013. Anyway, FRC has never used a game piece that small, unless you count Maize Craze, so I don't see it happening.
1) slick, with FRC wheels.
No any of the wheels normally used in FRC would have reasonable traction on that surface, the requirement was to use hard plastic wheels specifically to prevent good traction.
Wyatt Jordan
27-12-2014, 21:08
But if FIRST gets its hands on this stuff it's all over, but I'm betting its too expensive
http://ktoe.com/common/page.php?id=3151&is_corp=1
"Change is coming."
Change.
Ultimate Ascent will be replayed with different sized frisbees painted like coins.
Canon reeves
27-12-2014, 23:38
In 1999, the NFL allowed instant replay for coaches to be able to question the call,here (http://www.realclearsports.com/lists/biggest_rule_changes/nfl_instant_replay.html?state=stop) this could be a possiblity, but I doubt it because the question box is already full, imagine the nightmare of rewatching every match for simple calls? But if the penalty affected the game outcome they could use instant replay?
hmarch00
27-12-2014, 23:47
Google "Change is coming" and find a song "A Change Is Gonna Come" by Sam Cooke. The first line of that song is "I was born by a river." Water Game Confirmed.
AndrewPospeshil
28-12-2014, 00:35
Just my opinion, but I feel the '97/'99 mixup was not on purpose nor does it have any significance. Frank responded "Whoops." which makes me think it was actually an accident - I don't think they would acknowledge the key hint in the video while it might not've been so obvious? Then again he could be helping out and pointing out that that was what we shoud've been looking for.
gavmac928
28-12-2014, 06:44
In 1999, the NFL allowed instant replay for coaches to be able to question the call,here (http://www.realclearsports.com/lists/biggest_rule_changes/nfl_instant_replay.html?state=stop) this could be a possiblity, but I doubt it because the question box is already full, imagine the nightmare of rewatching every match for simple calls? But if the penalty affected the game outcome they could use instant replay?
The other day I was thinking about how the NFL has instant replay, the MLB recently began implementing it, and the NHL is beginning to consider using it as well. I have always seen one of FRC's ultimate goals as being as big a spectator sport as any of the traditional ones, and I'm sure they've talked about implementing things like instant replay. But in football, the one thing you can't challenge is a penalty, even when they can have a big impact on the game. Obviously FRC doesn't have to have the same rules for challenging, but other than penalties, scoring is the other big thing you would challenge, but other than arguing whether a team got an assist or not, I can't think of anything in recent years that's truly questionable. A ball is either in a goal or not, and endgame results are already assessed carefully because they can walk on the field to look at the robots closely.
Let's see... Rookies could theoretically manage any one of the following:
2010: push a soccer ball into a goal
2011: launch a minibot
2012: balance a bridge
2013: low goal points, at 1 point each, OR FCS blocker
2014: low goal/assist
How many of those require adding something to the chassis?
Let's make it easier. How many do NOT require adding something to the chassis?
*crickets*
Actually, we had an essentially square kitbot at our regional who managed several low goals and (herding) assists in 2014. The only thing "added to the chassis" not in the KOP were the mandatory bumpers. It also had a plywood cover flush with the top of the bumpers to protect the electronics, but it didn't help push the ball.
The last two years have had several scoring opportunities for a drive system with some totally static "manipulators", and defensive opportunities by simply getting in the way. As I recall, in 2012, something else had to move for you to influence the score - you couldn't get on a bridge without pushing it down outside your bumpers, and you couldn't pick up a ball either. You couldn't defend, since you couldn't get over the hump. I doubt that you could even drop a "startup" ball in a low goal without something moving.
But if FIRST gets its hands on this stuff it's all over, but I'm betting its too expensive
http://ktoe.com/common/page.php?id=3151&is_corp=1
At first I thought the demonstration sheet was the entire ice rink. Fortunately not. I wonder how durable that material is.
As I recall, in 2012, something else had to move for you to influence the score - you couldn't get on a bridge without pushing it down outside your bumpers, and you couldn't pick up a ball either. You couldn't defend, since you couldn't get over the hump. I doubt that you could even drop a "startup" ball in a low goal without something moving.
It was possible to drive over the hump using 8" wheels.
DonRotolo
28-12-2014, 11:52
It was possible to drive over the hump using 8" wheels.As I recall you could drive under the hump, too.
Richard Wallace
28-12-2014, 12:02
As I recall you could drive under the hump, too.
That was 2010. :)
Paul Richardson
28-12-2014, 12:27
Yet hockey isn't hockey without ice or something similar.
It's also possible that they keep the carpet, but do something to make robots a little more 'slippery' on the field...mandatory Omni wheels or something like that.
I feel like the hand model from Zoolander (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHrn_pHW2so&t=57s) here. I just explained this, a moment ago. There's nothing all that 'slippery' about ice skating. If wheels weren't a close approximation of skates in the first place, roller skates wouldn't be a thing.
I don't think that a slippery driving surface is necessary. If you look at hockey players they aren't slipping and sliding around, they have pretty good control. In fact, the way they skate is pretty similar to how a typical FRC robot moves on carpet (forward and backward, sweeping turns, and pivots).
If you take the hint "Change is Coming!" as a play on words for "Winter is Coming" (Game of Thrones), and the 60 in long, 3X3 box in the kit of parts, could it be a lance for jousting.
Have robot to robot interaction instead of each alliance attempting to score a goal.
... and the NHL is beginning to consider using it as well.
Wait what? The NHL has been using instant replay since 1991.
evand4567
28-12-2014, 15:42
The war room in Toronto would like to have a word with you...
Navid Shafa
28-12-2014, 17:10
While I am not under the belief that hockey pucks are in our near future, I am willing to agree with the following logic that was proposed to me:
The Mystery Box in the KOP: 3" x 3" x 60", 6lbs
Proposal: Pucks in a long cylindrical tube (minimal weight increase and space reduction)
Individual Puck Size: 2.875" Diameter, 1.25' Thick, Weight 2oz
45 of these pucks would come out to 5.625 lbs and 56.25" when stacked. That would certainly fit the extents and leave a little room and weight for packaging...
There's probably going to be some new HUGE change this year, I highly doubt a water game, a lot of people don't have access to pools and there's not enough stands. However, that's the only huge change I can see coming? :confused:
There's probably going to be some new HUGE change this year, I highly doubt a water game, a lot of people don't have access to pools and there's not enough stands. However, that's the only huge change I can see coming? :confused:
Well, this begs the question: Would you consider all the changes in the hint video "huge"? I wouldn't expect this change to be any bigger than those. Things change every year, it's just a matter of which ones our perception tells us are the most major.
Michael Hill
28-12-2014, 20:16
Well, this begs the question: Would you consider all the changes in the hint video "huge"? I wouldn't expect this change to be any bigger than those. Things change every year, it's just a matter of which ones our perception tells us are the most major.
I'm not so sure. When has the hint been focused on change happening? They (FIRST) seems to be very clear that SOMETHING we have all grown used to is changing.
AndyBare
28-12-2014, 20:24
So I checked out page 2 of the 2014 manual that was flipped to in the game hint. At the bottom of the manual is a "Arial Assist is played by two competing alliances" line as is underlined in red in the attachment 'manual.png.' Note that this is page 2/3 of the Game summary. There are 2 alliances in past years, but this year we are recycling. We have 2/3 but let's make it 3/3 by "Going green." Notice how the recycling symbol in the game hint video on the bin is white, also a triangle of course. How about adding a third alliance that is White? This would triangulate the entire way that districts, regionals, worlds, etc. are run... and well... finish off the colors of the first logo.
While I am not under the belief that hockey pucks are in our near future, I am willing to agree with the following logic that was proposed to me:
The Mystery Box in the KOP: 3" x 3" x 60", 6lbs
Proposal: Pucks in a long cylindrical tube (minimal weight increase and space reduction)
Individual Puck Size: 2.875" Diameter, 1.25' Thick, Weight 2oz
45 of these pucks would come out to 5.625 lbs and 56.25" when stacked. That would certainly fit the extents and leave a little room and weight for packaging...
Everyone can agree that a 3" x 3" x 60" box is unwieldy, and since FIRST is giving them out (and they have no motivation to make our life unnecessarily hard, I mean, they exist for us student's benefit), I think we can be quite certain that the objects in that box must be in a box of that size for length purposes. That would mean most likely no hockey pucks, and besides, it even looks like they ship from suppliers in much more reasonably sized boxes (http://howieshockeytape.com/store/black-hockey-pucks-6oz) anyway. I would guess other suppliers would follow suit, I mean, its probably more expensive for shipping companies to handle boxes like that too.
Anyway, I just wanted to put out my thoughts on a few criteria that the GDC uses to create their games (recently):
The games have to be spectator friendly. One of the main goals of the entire FIRST organization is to expand its reach, to spread STEM to more schools and therefore educate the world's youth about the STEM fields. Many people will have their first exposure to FIRST by attending events as a spectator (or watching online, doesn't really matter), and if someone doesn't understand what's going on or finds it boring, they aren't very likely to peruse i, to create a team. This goal is much bigger than simply "changing things up" for a new game. A corollary of this is that the match will most likely be head to head (i.e. not 4v0, 6v0) because, well, head to head matches are really exciting and just "score as much as possible" in real time is, well, boring for people who aren't way into it like we are. Another would be that it has to be pretty simple on the surface.
All teams must be able to field a robot that can contribute to an alliance, even boxes on wheels. Just as FIRST wants to have more teams join, they want to retain their new ones. If rookies are able to be good contributes to their alliances even with their likely limited resources, I would guess that they would be more inclined to continue in the competition, even recommend that other schools join.
The game has to be safe. This means no small hard projectiles. Lacrosse balls are undoubtedly out (I used to play before I sold my soul to Dean and trust me it hurts). Real hockey pucks are most likely out too, even if they tried to limit them to only ground shooting (a la 2010), since one will go flying somehow. There are other alternatives, so I just don't see why it would be worth it.
These criteria along with the pretty explicit AndyMark field hint lead me to believe that 3v3 will be staying. I would also guess that the primary surface for the field will be the same too (or at least not be one that leads to lunacy play).
As for the hint, I generally don't like to look to far into them since, well, you never have really had to (well, 2013 was pretty tough, but anyway). Frank is is recycling the 2014 manual while standing on what looks like a standard field and tells us that "Change is coming". Assuming that he is referring to the manual, I would guess that there will be a major restructuring of the rules, like penalties, or the way teams are ranked and put into eliminations. Things in the Administrative manual have changed in accordance with this too, like Elimination matches now being referred to as Playoff matches.
Honestly I doubt the hint has anything to do with the actual game pieces or the play of the game itself, its just telling us that there will be a major change in the way we go about competing.
I can't even imagine how much fun watching this thread as the GDC is.
Could simply be a new vendor supporting first. Perhaps aluminum of various lengths and types ?
billbo911
28-12-2014, 21:10
Anyone mention the encrypted version of the manual is nonexistent. I believe it is usually posted by now. Does that appears to be because they are going to an online viewer version instead? That's a change.
Joseph Lewis
28-12-2014, 21:14
I have spent the last four hours reading through all of the discussion on this thread, and found that while most ideas are plausible, some are more so than others. Post #411 was especially helpful, although it received very little attention on this thread.
My thoughts on the ideas that have come throughout the thread:
1) Autonomous being moved to the end of the match: Although this idea does propose a unique challenge both to the drive team and to the programming team, I don't think FIRST will take this direction for a couple of reasons (although, who knows, Frank did say that "Change is Coming"). My initial concern here is safety. Having robots start auto at the end of a match means that autonomous could begin in any multitude of positions for however many robots are on the field. Knowing how finicky robots can be, even being slightly off in the position that a team reaches can lead to drastically different results in the autonomous period. Having robot on robot interaction during autonomous then, is a huge possibility. FIRST has, for safety reasons, tried to minimize this by making rules about not crossing over the middle of the field during Auto. Although FIRST is making big changes this year, I don't think making events less safe is on their list of priority changes. Not only this, but it would be very difficult to regulate the transition between Teleop and Autonomous. As it stands now, players stand behind a line and wait for auto to be over to step forward, making it clear that the robots are acting without driver controls. If auto were at the end however, many people would find themselves in the heat of the moment trying to hang on to the controls for as long as possible. Even if a large penalty were assigned to teams that didn't step back in time for auto (which seems only to promote the foul based victories that we saw in 2014, albeit not at the highest levels of play), many events would have difficulty regulating this transition. The multitude of positions also brings up my second concern. Autonomous programming being as difficult as it is for most (or many, however you say it without offending anyone) teams, it would feel very unsatisfying to have made a great Auto code and line up your robot in the right spot at the end of the match, only to see it not work 90% of the time because another robot sat themselves in your way. Lastly, this auto at the end seems very anti-climatic (as was mentioned previously, sorry I forgot who mentioned it). Only the most competitive of robots would do anything useful during this autonomous period, but even then other robots can get in the way (since auto does the same thing every time, it would be easy to set up and block). This leads to an end game where all or most of the robots are sitting on the field, not scoring, not moving, or anything. How boring.
2) 6v0 or other v0 format: I really caught on to this idea, considering the name change of "Elimination Matches" to "Playoffs" Teams compete in a time limit to earn as many points as possible. These points go towards ranking in qualifications, you pick a permanent alliance for "Playoffs" then each permanent alliance goes 2 or 3 times, you take the sum of their scores, and the highest one wins. No "elimination", because there is no bracket.
3) Hockey or Puck related game: This idea also seems plausible, and could fit in with the v0 or a XvsX(vsX, etc. if you'd like, although anything more than two alliances seems unlikely due to the "Enemy of my enemy is my friend" game-play that results from such formatting) format. I can definitely see the 3"x3"x60" object containing some number of pucks, considering how well the math works with the weight(as worked out previously in the thread). As to how to play such a game, knowing that a hockey puck is the scoring object means nothing. Manipulators are highly dependent on what rules they must abide by in the manual, which we will just have to see on January 3rd, 2015.
4) Recycling 2014's Game: This one upsets me. As much as I liked 2014's game, I do not think it would be interesting for spectators to see the same game being played by basically the same robots. Recycle does not mean repeat.
5) Switchup of Video Footage, no '99 game, 2x '97 game: I saw a summary that said the thread believes that the switch-up was intentional, and that FIRST was incapable of making such a big mistake on accident. Does no one remember last years hint, when they literally released the wrong numbers, giving the birthday for the soccer player who DIDN'T actually hold the top number of assists? That seems like a pretty big mistake to me. This mistake is not huge, its just an editing error by someone who was rushed to put together a hint and accidentally clicked on the wrong file, chose a random spot to include, and didn't recognize that the game was not from '99 because they weren't around in FIRST during the '99 or '97 games. (kudos to everyone that has pointed this out before).
I'm not sure what the game hint means, but I think there are definitely great ideas out there. Although we have to wait until January 3rd to know for sure, nothing says that we can't have fun while we wait. Keep speculating!
TL,DR - Autonomous shouldn't switch to end because of safety concerns. Different alliance format likely, but not more than 2 alliances. Hockey Game is a good idea. 2014 game reuse isn't. Footage switch was not intentional. Have fun speculating while waiting for January 3rd.
I believe it is usually posted by now.
Last year, the encrypted manual wasn't posted until the Thursday before kickoff. There's still time.
IronicDeadBird
28-12-2014, 21:31
Anyone else considering a forced role game. That being a siege style game or attack defense. Think most video games call it assault or whatever where you take turns defending an objective or pushing it. The popular one that comes to mind is CS:GO or counter strike where you have one team trying to stop a bomb from being planted and the other team trying to plant it. The concept we steal from here is that you have red alliance and blue alliance and one alliance is forced to play defensively and one side is forced to play offense. Going in line with "Kit bots can contribute" just having a body blocker on offense or defense is viable, and current field constraints work. I'd like to believe that some game in the future or even this coming game is done in an assault style.
Also wouldn't FIRST be shooting a few companies in the foot by going Lunacy and forcing certain design choices like wheels?
Orthofort
28-12-2014, 21:33
5) Switchup of Video Footage, no '99 game, 2x '97 game: I saw a summary that said the thread believes that the switch-up was intentional, and that FIRST was incapable of making such a big mistake on accident. Does no one remember last years hint, when they literally released the wrong numbers, giving the birthday for the soccer player who DIDN'T actually hold the top number of assists? That seems like a pretty big mistake to me. This mistake is not huge, its just an editing error by someone who was rushed to put together a hint and accidentally clicked on the wrong file, chose a random spot to include, and didn't recognize that the game was not from '99 because they weren't around in FIRST during the '99 or '97 games. (kudos to everyone that has pointed this out before).
Blog post about last year's hint for reference: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-Kickoff-Broadcast-Game-Hint-Redux
Recall that last year, when they made a mistake that wasn't even a complete mistake as they admitted, Frank wrote a whole new blog post and re-released the hint fixed to avoid confusion or possible misdirection, and even said that "So maybe we should have spent a little more time on this one! Sorry about that." If they truly did just accidentally click on the wrong video clip, I would have expected more of a response like last year's, rather than a nonchalant "Whoops".
Also, I highly doubt they picked they videos and set it to automatically pick a random spot in the video. They specifically chose, even if they didn't spend much time on it, clips from the video that had a bit of action. I could see this being a mistake far more if the two clips were the same, but considering they are from two completely different spots in the same video, I just can't envision any process of editing this video that would result in this as an accident.
Now whether this switcheroo was accidental or not, I don't think it'll provide a whole lot of insight into the game. So while I don't think we should look too far into this part of the hint, I would have to respectfully disagree that this was not intentional.
It was possible to drive over the hump (in Rebound Rumble) using 8" wheels.
The RR KOP wheels were 6", so you would have had to buy another set (and boy, were we strapped for cash our rookie year). Even with 8" wheels, that would be a trick. The hump was 4" high, so an 8" wheel would hit it with a vertical surface. I wouldn't try to drive over it with a wheel anywhere near the carpet unless it was at least 12" in diameter. At 8", the bumper would also have had to be located fully above the axles, which really isn't a normal thing if you're building the KOP chassis. The only robots I saw "drive over" the hump had some sort of articulated chassis which raised the "front" wheels at least two inches off the floor (or possibly they were accelerating so fast that they were rolling only on the rear wheels, which seems even less likely). All in all, this goes past a kit bot with some static pieces added on top
hardcopi
28-12-2014, 22:08
Haven't heard this idea mentioned, but if they really want to change things up... no wheels. Never been done ASFAIK in FRC.
Forget Water Game... Walking Game. :) Would certainly level the playing field a bit. Anyone ever had a walking bot?
I'm not so sure. When has the hint been focused on change happening? They (FIRST) seems to be very clear that SOMETHING we have all grown used to is changing.
Well, never that I know of, but when has the hint ever been similar to a previous year's? They're always pretty different. If they gave this hint before the release of Ultimate Ascent and then we found out that the robot sizing rules were changing, I would have been pretty well satisfied. I think that would have been enough because it was such a mainstay over the previous several years, but it didn't fundamentally change the way we approached that game or Aerial Assist. I think this year will see something of that magnitude again--not really earth-shattering, but something that hasn't changed in a while.
Haven't heard this idea mentioned, but if they really want to change things up... no wheels. Never been done ASFAIK in FRC.
Forget Water Game... Walking Game. :) Would certainly level the playing field a bit. Anyone ever had a walking bot?
Well, yes. Team 71 did it in 2002 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eKvva_ZCHw) (they're the robot coming in from the left), and that robot became one of the most famous in FRC history.
And, in addition to leveling the playing field, it could also rip it up, literally. With the huge requirement on traction that year, many teams (especially 71) ended up tearing the carpet pretty badly. FIRST changed the rules on what could be used for traction devices the following year.
ybansal17
28-12-2014, 23:02
Has anyone else noticed they used 97 footage for the 99 game? Seem people think it was just a fluke...but I doubt they put a lot of time into what the game hint will be, only to mess up the footage they put in. That was the year they added alliances too--so I think the change is going to be in the alliances. Perhaps making it 4 robots to an alliance or having 3 alliances per match.
I also don't think the triangle is the most significant thing in the video, and so it won't be a huge factor in this coming game
Has anyone else noticed they used 97 footage for the 99 game? Seem people think it was just a fluke...but I doubt they put a lot of time into what the game hint will be, only to mess up the footage they put in. That was the year they added alliances too--so I think the change is going to be in the alliances. Perhaps making it 4 robots to an alliance or having 3 alliances per match.
I also don't think the triangle is the most significant thing in the video, and so it won't be a huge factor in this coming game
I know there are over 500 posts in this thread, but yes, we've all noticed that and been over it many times. People (particularly the more veteran members of the forum) will appreciate it more if you are aware of this. You can use the "Search this Thread" box at the bottom of the page to help check if certain topics have been brought up already.
Richard Wallace
28-12-2014, 23:19
Haven't heard this idea mentioned, but if they really want to change things up... no wheels. Never been done ASFAIK in FRC.
Forget Water Game... Walking Game. :) Would certainly level the playing field a bit. Anyone ever had a walking bot?FRC 276 Madcow from Youngstown, Ohio, built walking robots back in the day. I recall seeing some discussion about a patent application they filed. I also recall competing against them at the 2004 St. Louis Regional. I had the pleasure of escorting Dean Kamen around the pits and arena that year, and vividly recall the keen interest he showed in the 276 machine while watching matches at field-side. Their robot could not score balls, cap, or move fast, but its drivetrain was unstoppable and it could hang. I think the team had just one mentor and three students that year.
Anyway, walking robots have been done, some more successfully than others.
Zeromonkey
29-12-2014, 00:11
Earlier in the thread, I am not sure who said it, someone mentioned something about multiple game pieces. There is also a lot of speculation as to the GDC editing our alliance system as well.
Jacob Bendicksen, the Co-President from 1540, and I were thinking about these ideas, the hint, and the other tidbits we know.
We came up with a possible idea for the game.
The video references that "Change is Coming". One thing that has never happened (I have done my research) is multiple game piece types. By this, I mean having in one game for example an inner tube and a frisbee as the primary game pieces. We envisioned a game where there were multiple game pieces that were changed out during the match at set intervals. Then the leftover game pieces from the previous interval would just become dead game pieces.
Where do these game pieces come from? That was when we looked to the "recycling bin" ideas. We were thinking they would recycle game pieces from the past in this game.
Then we thought of the problem during qualification matches "So the game switches game pieces every XX seconds, but my alliance can only manipulate one of them". To decrease the chance of that happening, we thought they should add a fourth alliance member.
But this fourth bot would be a robot that can "line change" in and out with other teammates. Like in hockey, this would mean alliances could quickly switch out their "bench" team into play depending on the game piece in play. Thus, at one time, there would only be three robots on the field at once.
Then, we thought that there would be a problem. At district events, we can't have 32 teams in eliminations. That would be too much.
So we thought, if they reduced it to 6 team playoffs, we could keep the 4 team alliances, keep the same 24 teams in eliminations, and the bracket could still work. First and Second teams would get a bye (Like in football playoffs, the best teams get a bye) and would play the winner of 3v5 and 4v6, respectively.
We want to know what you all think.
TL;DR Multiple Game pieces. Recycled Game Pieces from Past Games. 4th "Benched" Team in Alliances. 6 Alliance Playoffs with 1st and 2nd Seed having a Bye.
Nathan Streeter
29-12-2014, 00:34
I've been thinking of a few different areas that could be sources of big change, and I have to say the one 'genre' that I really don't like is changing the 3v3 structure. I like having a selected backup robot in elims (at bigger-than-district events), but otherwise don't want to see change there.
A few potential areas of "big change" that I do think could/would actually be good:
- Reducing weight limit to 100lbs or 90lbs. Robots have only been getting heavier over FRC history, with the early increase to 120lbs, then the addition of a separate bumper weight (and the growth of this allocation up to 20lbs), but the perimeter change has brought the area down these past two years. Additionally the presence of bumpers, COTS components, and better motors have enabled teams to build lighter. Bringing the weight limit down noticeably would reduce the 'm' aspect of robots' kinetic energy, push teams towards fewer motors on the drive (by reducing the weight budget those extra CIMs are more costly and also less necessary since less torque can be applied to the weels), and make teams evaluate which assemblies/mechanisms are really worth including (seems to me like recent rookie teams rarely come close to the 120lb limit).
- Dramatically reducing # of rules. Obvious, but highly unlikely given the GDCs recent trends.
- Multiple game pieces. I like this one a lot... could become very interesting and would force teams to either specialize or do some incredible engineering to combine.
- Moving autonomous to the end (or having a beginning and ending mode). The more I think about this the neater it would be... teams would have to prepare for the autonomous mode during the match and reserve time to place themselves carefully or use exceptional autonomous capabilities to ensure a successful final auto mode. It would be kind of like an end-game of itself...
- A dramatic change to the 'T' section of the manual such as how ranking is done or enabling a form of instant replay.
In 1999, the NFL allowed instant replay for coaches to be able to question the call,here (http://www.realclearsports.com/lists/biggest_rule_changes/nfl_instant_replay.html?state=stop) this could be a possiblity, but I doubt it because the question box is already full, imagine the nightmare of rewatching every match for simple calls? But if the penalty affected the game outcome they could use instant replay?
I was going to respond earlier to this, but things happened.
So...
This isn't going to happen, not in the near future at least. It's been discussed before, but the upshot is that nobody's yet been able to implement a system where the money cost is low, the "extra time" cost is low, AND the "refs don't wanna do this anymore" cost is low. Actually, getting past the first one is hard enough.
And here's one example of why.
There was a match at L.A. that had one alliance in the question box for three straight matches (the refs would break off to run the matches, then come back to the box) trying to figure out why they didn't get points that they thought they should have gotten. Now, I can't find video of that match on TBA, and can't remember what teams were in that match--just that one of the teams on that alliance had appeared, to the team in the box, to have fully crossed into a zone with a ball and thus gotten an assist. Just to refresh our collective memory, the robots had to be contacting the ground entirely within the zone to get the possession in the zone. Also, there were three refs looking primarily at that robot--one scoring ref, one spotter for the scoring ref (me, in this case), and one ref diagonally from the scoring and spotter who had a better view. Oh, and if I recall correctly, the final score was such that the assist would not have made a difference.
The result of that discussion was that the team did not get the assist points. Why? Because 3 refs, looking at that robot, did not see the robot contacting the ground entirely within the zone on that particular cycle. So, either it did not qualify for the possession in the zone, OR a ref standing about 15 feet away and looking right at it missed seeing it AND 2 refs at about 30 feet away looking right at it missed it. (Or couldn't remember when asked a couple matches later--pick your choice of the three options.)
Now, how does that example play into why getting past those obstacles is hard? Consider this: The camera(s) for any instant replay will almost certainly be farther away than the refs' eyes, and due to arena considerations, probably higher up. They will need to be looking at the area in question. And they will need to be able to show--clearly--whether a robot is contacting the floor in a given area, from what will probably be a worse angle. That means a really good camera set, and trained operators--no closeups of flipped robots, no moving the camera(s) to random locations, sharp focus on key areas... Guess what, that means extra money to rig the cameras and make sure they're operating "properly".
I could go on, but I'll keep it short: I haven't gone into the logistics of calling for a review, getting the video to point X for review by ref Y, and keeping the time down. Nobody's really figured out much of an actionable plan for those. Until someone figures out all those logistical items in a way that makes sense, instant replay will be good only for match highlights.
Abhishek R
29-12-2014, 00:41
I've been thinking of a few different areas that could be sources of big change, and I have to say the one 'genre' that I really don't like is changing the 3v3 structure. I like having a selected backup robot in elims (at bigger-than-district events), but otherwise don't want to see change there.
A few potential areas of "big change" that I do think could/would actually be good:
- Reducing weight limit to 100lbs or 90lbs. Robots have only been getting heavier over FRC history, with the early increase to 120lbs, then the addition of a separate bumper weight (and the growth of this allocation up to 20lbs), but the perimeter change has brought the area down these past two years. Additionally the presence of bumpers, COTS components, and better motors have enabled teams to build lighter. Bringing the weight limit down noticeably would reduce the 'm' aspect of robots' kinetic energy, push teams towards fewer motors on the drive (by reducing the weight budget those extra CIMs are more costly and also less necessary since less torque can be applied to the weels), and make teams evaluate which assemblies/mechanisms are really worth including (seems to me like recent rookie teams rarely come close to the 120lb limit).
- Dramatically reducing # of rules. Obvious, but highly unlikely given the GDCs recent trends.
- Multiple game pieces. I like this one a lot... could become very interesting and would force teams to either specialize or do some incredible engineering to combine.
- Moving autonomous to the end (or having a beginning and ending mode). The more I think about this the neater it would be... teams would have to prepare for the autonomous mode during the match and reserve time to place themselves carefully or use exceptional autonomous capabilities to ensure a successful final auto mode. It would be kind of like an end-game of itself...
- A dramatic change to the 'T' section of the manual such as how ranking is done or enabling a form of instant replay.
Agree with everything here. Only thing is I don't see them reducing the weight limit for a couple reasons:
-First, I don't get the feeling that reduced weight would be a big change. You're still building a robot that will be more or less similar to the past few years' and playing the same format competitions. There are already light robots, so for those teams who regularly build very light, it won't be a big change.
-Second, very minor, I think FIRST likes having the press know we build some heavyweight robots compared to what some other smaller robotics programs are out there for high schools.
Though it's definitely not out of the question to change the weight, I just don't think that's the change referred to in the hint. Agree with all the other comments.
BBray_T1296
29-12-2014, 02:33
I took this picture at the Dallas Regional in 2014. I think you will find it relevant
(even though it was made by a team)
http://s30.postimg.org/cturkmzup/20140314_104249.jpg
superlizardmo
29-12-2014, 11:50
What about something like the shot clock in basketball? To my knowledge, both alliances have always had an equal opportunity to score points throughout the duration of the match. What if the game had alternating scoring periods so only one alliance could score at a time, alternating every thirty seconds or so. Something like this would make game play resemble the one game piece option that some people have discussed.
RunawayEngineer
29-12-2014, 11:58
What about something like the shot clock in basketball? To my knowledge, both alliances have always had an equal opportunity to score points throughout the duration of the match. What if the game had alternating scoring periods so only one alliance could score at a time, alternating every thirty seconds or so. Something like this would make game play resemble the one game piece option that some people have discussed.
That is very close to how the 2006 game was structured.
It could happen again, though.
I enjoyed it - though it turned out that whoever had the last scoring period had a significant advantage that was difficult to overcome.
That year, whoever scored more points in autonomous got a bonus score and their opponents would start their scoring period first. Going first was a disadvantage for several reasons, the primary one being that there were much fewer balls lying on the field to score with.
notmattlythgoe
29-12-2014, 13:31
What are all of the ideas that have been brought up for the long KOP box?
Light pole
Bumper fabric
Noodle
Hockey stick
Donated stock
Hockey pucks
Pieces to build a game element/goal
Anything else?
ehochstein
29-12-2014, 13:34
What are all of the ideas that have been brought up for the long KOP box?
Light pole
Bumper fabric
Noodle
Hockey stick
Donated stock
Anything else?
A bunch of Hockey Pucks
What are all of the ideas that have been brought up for the long KOP box?
Light pole
Bumper fabric
Noodle
Hockey stick
Donated stock
Hockey pucks
Anything else?
Pieces to build tetras/mobile goals/some other game element
While I am not under the belief that hockey pucks are in our near future, I am willing to agree with the following logic that was proposed to me:
The Mystery Box in the KOP: 3" x 3" x 60", 6lbs
Proposal: Pucks in a long cylindrical tube (minimal weight increase and space reduction)
Individual Puck Size: 2.875" Diameter, 1.25' Thick, Weight 2oz
45 of these pucks would come out to 5.625 lbs and 56.25" when stacked. That would certainly fit the extents and leave a little room and weight for packaging...
A bunch of Hockey Pucks
No, no, no a thousand times no. Frank loves to troll CD however he is not going to authorize spending thousands of dollars just to troll CD and confuse people. What ever the collection of items that is 3x3x60 you can be assured that they are ~60" long and can not be folded or otherwise fit into a smaller dimension. Anything that does not fit on a standard 40" x 48" pallet that the collection of items is not under a total of 48" high, including the pallet will be more expensive to ship. That 60" long collection of items is also a pain for some people to transport home in their particular vehicle. So Frank is not going to authorize inconveniencing the majority of the FRC community just to mess with the minority that is on CD.
Tl/DR; The 3" x 3" x 60" collection of items could not be packed in something substantially less than 60" long.
AndyBare
29-12-2014, 14:25
The St. Louis Blues won their first Presidents' Cup in the 1999-2000 season.
This cup allows a single team with a highest record(by points not ratio W/L/T) during the season to be guaranteed home-ice advantage for every round of the Stanley Cup Playoffs they make it to.
Take it how you want.
-What if highest seed alliance can pick alliance color? etc.
-Perhaps this is a game where alliance color determines role?
notmattlythgoe
29-12-2014, 14:26
No, no, no a thousand times no. Frank loves to troll CD however he is not going to authorize spending thousands of dollars just to troll CD and confuse people. What ever the collection of items that is 3x3x60 you can be assured that they are ~60" long and can not be folded or otherwise fit into a smaller dimension. Anything that does not fit on a standard 40" x 48" pallet that the collection of items is not under a total of 48" high, including the pallet will be more expensive to ship. That 60" long collection of items is also a pain for some people to transport home in their particular vehicle. So Frank is not going to authorize inconveniencing the majority of the FRC community just to mess with the minority that is on CD.
Tl/DR; The 3" x 3" x 60" collection of items could not be packed in something substantially less than 60" long.
Agreed.
Dominator1619
29-12-2014, 14:38
Can you choose what still image is shown before a video is played? Don't know much about how youtube works (never posted a video on there) but if a still can be chosen then maybe something can be taken from the fact that stack attack is the image shown?
MattRain
29-12-2014, 14:47
Can you choose what still image is shown before a video is played? Don't know much about how youtube works (never posted a video on there) but if a still can be chosen then maybe something can be taken from the fact that stack attack is the image shown?
I like your thinking...:cool:
Poseidon5817
29-12-2014, 15:01
Can you choose what still image is shown before a video is played? Don't know much about how youtube works (never posted a video on there) but if a still can be chosen then maybe something can be taken from the fact that stack attack is the image shown?
Unless you have a partnership with Youtube, you can't choose custom thumbnails (the image shown as the preview thingy).
AllenGregoryIV
29-12-2014, 15:09
Unless you have a partnership with Youtube, you can't choose custom thumbnails (the image shown as the preview thingy).
Yes you can. There is an option to upload an image or to select between a few screen grabs that YouTube picks for you, when you click to edit a video that you uploaded. I'm not sure that is is available to all users but I know we can on the Spectrum3847 channel, so I assume FIRST can as well.
MattRain
29-12-2014, 15:17
What were the game hints for Stack Attack in 2003? Anyone know.. A big change that year was Autonomous being introduced.
He seems to "recycle" the 2014 game manual. Perhaps they are recycling one aspect of the 2014 game such as the assist mechanics.
BC
AllenGregoryIV
29-12-2014, 15:47
Alright, at this point everyone should get the hint that any discussion of any sort of leaked information is going to be removed.
FIRST HQ will tell us information when they are ready and Kick Off is only 5 days away anyway. Chill out a bit, spend some quality time with your friends and family and ring in the new year. No need in making the moderators work harder to remove things.
Alright, at this point everyone should get the hint that any discussion of any sort of leaked information is going to be removed.
Are you sure this is wise policy, though? If information has been leaked, then it's been leaked. There's no un-leaking it; those who have seen it can benefit and those who haven't can't - wouldn't the best form of "damage control" be to just put it out there so everyone is on equal footing?
AllenGregoryIV
29-12-2014, 15:54
Are you sure this is wise policy, though? If information has been leaked, then it's been leaked. There's no un-leaking it; those who have seen it can benefit and those who haven't can't - wouldn't the best form of "damage control" be to just put it out there so everyone is on equal footing?
I'm not making any policy, or agreeing with any policy. I'm just saying that if the post is going to be deleted, there is no reason to post it and make the moderators do more work. The moderators are good people and I'm sure they have better things to do with their time. We all agree to abide by FIRST's rules by being in their competition and one of their rules is the time line at which information is released. If they want to release the leaked information to everyone that is their decision but I don't believe that it's mine or anyone else's to make for them.
Alright, at this point everyone should get the hint that any discussion of any sort of leaked information is going to be removed.
FIRST HQ will tell us information when they are ready and Kick Off is only 5 days away anyway. Chill out a bit, spend some quality time with your friends and family and ring in the new year. No need in making the moderators work harder to remove things.
+1 agreed
They said there would be CHANGE, so it could possibly be skateboarding...
MrJohnston
29-12-2014, 17:12
I have to throw out some thoughts...
* The emphasis on "Change" with the recycling of the rule book suggests to me that there is going to be a structural change in the game.... Something fundamental to the structure.... FIRST does want to find ways to get more teams involved and give teams more games at each competition... The rectangular structure of the field being sold on AndyMark strongly suggests that we continue to have two teams, so.... Two teams of four robots? Slightly smaller robot dimensions so as to give eight robots more room to roam on the field?
* What about the game? If it is another game with balls... We haven't done anything with footballs, tennis balls or whiffle balls... I reject the idea of hockey pucks: they are too dangerous. We've shot a lot of things through holes/hoops/goals... Stacking? Perhaps in a tube like the FTC game? I don't see a direct copy happening.... Okay: whiffle balls put into holes at each end of the court, but the holes are small enough that throwing them from any distance would be unreasonable. Instead they have to be placed precisely? Some holes would be really high and small for lots of points. Others could be larger and low for fewer...
* There needs to be something in the middle of the field as an obstacle or structure... perhaps for additional points... A target for each team in the center... Points are given for all robots that finish the match inside the target? Of course it would be too small for more than a pair of robots to squeeze into comfortably... Perhaps a second "coopertition" target for which "competition" points are scored for both teams if robots from two teams are inside? (Similar to balancing robots in Rebound Rumble?)..... Oooh Here's a twist: the last 20 seconds (instead of first) of each match is the autonomous phase and robots can't enter the circle until teleop ends....
I am looking forward to Saturday..... I have robots on the brain already...
Have an end game auto mode still sounds so exciting to me. The only problem I see is when a rookie team doesn't use auto. or auto it not working so you just have a 20 sec sit still time at the end of a match.
But I think the pros of end game auto wayyyy outweigh the cons.
I never said that that picture was a real leak. I posted it to ask you guys if you knew anything about the legitimacy of it. It could very well have been photoshopped.
I never said that that picture was a real leak. I posted it to ask you guys if you knew anything about the legitimacy of it. It could very well have been photoshopped.
If someone purports to have a leak, and it does NOT say "Official Game Hint" and is NOT from FIRST, it is NOT a game hint.
Remember: Those who tell, don't know, and those who know, don't tell. The penalty for that latter? Lack of knowledge in future.
brandon.cottrell
29-12-2014, 20:30
Yes you can. There is an option to upload an image or to select between a few screen grabs that YouTube picks for you, when you click to edit a video that you uploaded. I'm not sure that is is available to all users but I know we can on the Spectrum3847 channel, so I assume FIRST can as well.
If your Youtube account is in good standing with copyrighted content claims, you can add custom thumbnails, make videos unlisted, and make videos longer than 15 minutes. I had to resolve this issue with my team's copyright claims in order to make the super long video of our whole season.
Jaywalker1711
29-12-2014, 21:12
Let's bring in what we all thought was the game hint before into the discussion:
Those kit box sizes
One of the boxes is quite long, and given the previous "hint" I thought the game would involve some sort of swing (tennis, golf, hockey)
Given this, and the open pages about assists, I actually think I have a game that FIRST would create:
DELTA RELAY
That long box contains a long pole/rod which is a baton. The object of the game is to carry the baton down the field. The more robots that are used, the more points that are given. The baton is then deposited at a goal at the end of the field, and a new cycle begins
:eek:
tindleroot
29-12-2014, 23:04
What were the game hints for Stack Attack in 2003? Anyone know.. A big change that year was Autonomous being introduced.
I believe Game Hints started in 2004...
I believe Game Hints started in 2004...
Not quite... I believe the 2003 one (though it may have been unofficial) was some variation of the quadratic formula.
Let's bring in what we all thought was the game hint before into the discussion:
Those kit box sizes
One of the boxes is quite long, and given the previous "hint" I thought the game would involve some sort of swing (tennis, golf, hockey)
Given this, and the open pages about assists, I actually think I have a game that FIRST would create:
DELTA RELAY
That long box contains a long pole/rod which is a baton. The object of the game is to carry the baton down the field. The more robots that are used, the more points that are given. The baton is then deposited at a goal at the end of the field, and a new cycle begins
:eek:
Sounds almost exactly like Aerial Assist. I highly doubt that FIRST would do another game so similar to the previous year's game.
minutebot
30-12-2014, 02:18
smaller Hexagonal or odd-shaped field, no alliances, maybe 1 v 1 or FFA with multiple and it'll be an arm game with elements to be picked up and placed.
The deletion of the 1999 game (link below) and replacement of it with the 1997 game is definitely significant (recycling 1997). 1999 was the first year with alliances as mentioned in the video but it was also the first year with a regular rectangular shaped field (disregarding 1992 which was a raised square sandbox) and every field since has been a regular rectangular shape. I believe that alliances and the rectangular shaped field will both be done away with for the coming game. Also when the guy opens the game manual he flips to the first pages which described the field in the 2014 game manual. Finally, it will be similar but a variation on the 1997 game because the 1997 game is the one being recycled so it will be some sort of arm game.
1999 Game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0CDop_IwW8
Link to FRC 2015 Game Hint:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAETANAiLw0
I had another idea for change. What if drivers on an alliance had to drive each other's robots? It would mean in addition to building a robust robot, you have to make it user friendly and idiot-proof so that strangers can drive it.
tanogirl
30-12-2014, 08:54
smaller Hexagonal or odd-shaped field, no alliances, maybe 1 v 1 or FFA with multiple and it'll be an arm game with elements to be picked up and placed.
The deletion of the 1999 game (link below) and replacement of it with the 1997 game is definitely significant (recycling 1997). 1999 was the first year with alliances as mentioned in the video but it was also the first year with a regular rectangular shaped field (disregarding 1992 which was a raised square sandbox) and every field since has been a regular rectangular shape. I believe that alliances and the rectangular shaped field will both be done away with for the coming game. Also when the guy opens the game manual he flips to the first pages which described the field in the 2014 game manual. Finally, it will be similar but a variation on the 1997 game because the 1997 game is the one being recycled so it will be some sort of arm game.
1999 Game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0CDop_IwW8
Link to FRC 2015 Game Hint:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAETANAiLw0
It couldn't really be an odd shaped field because last year's field was approved for this year, which means no big changes in field size/shape.
SRaymond
30-12-2014, 11:01
Frank posted a rule on the FRC blog:
R13: Software and Mechanical/Electrical designs created before kickoff are only permitted if the source files (conplete information sufficient to produce the design) are available publically prior to Kickoff.
Sounds like a hint about recycled designs? 😂
notmattlythgoe
30-12-2014, 11:03
Frank posted a rule on the FRC blog:
R13: Software and Mechanical/Electrical designs created before kickoff are only permitted if the source files (conplete information sufficient to produce the design) are available publically prior to Kickoff.
Sounds like a hint about recycled designs? 😂
I think it is more of a reminder to teams to release any offseason designs they worked on if they want to be able to use them.
Frank posted a rule on the FRC blog:
R13: Software and Mechanical/Electrical designs created before kickoff are only permitted if the source files (conplete information sufficient to produce the design) are available publically prior to Kickoff.
Sounds like a hint about recycled designs? 😂
That rule has existed for quite some time now. As previously posted, some teams are already prototyping their robots and have been for months. All designs done in this fashion have to be shared publicly.
gavmac928
30-12-2014, 11:37
That rule has existed for quite some time now. As previously posted, some teams are already prototyping their robots and have been for months. All designs done in this fashion have to be shared publicly.
Although I hope I'm wrong, maybe this is the rule that will be a big change? It does pertain to recycling and the rule book was recycled. The original blog post about how change is coming basically said not to expect long standing rules that we take for granted to be back every year, maybe this rule is the one being changed? I don't think it should be, but who knows? Also, should we look into the fact that he misspelled complete as conplete?
Although I hope I'm wrong, maybe this is the rule that will be a big change? It does pertain to recycling and the rule book was recycled. The original blog post about how change is coming basically said not to expect long standing rules that we take for granted to be back every year, maybe this rule is the one being changed? I don't think it should be, but who knows? Also, should we look into the fact that he misspelled complete as conplete?
2014 R13:
ROBOT elements created before Kickoff are not permitted. ROBOT elements, including software, that are designed
before Kickoff are not permitted.
Exceptions include the following:
A. BUMPERS,
B. OPERATOR CONSOLE,
C. battery assemblies per R5-A, and
D. software and designs with source files publicly available prior to Kickoff.
2015 R13:
Software and Mechanical/Electrical designs created before kickoff are only permitted if the source files (conplete information sufficient to produce the design) are available publically prior to Kickoff.
It did change. Before
Example 2: The same Team realizes that the transmission designed and built in the fall
perfectly fits their need for a transmission to drive the ROBOT arm. They build an exact
copy of the transmission from the original design plans, and bolt it to the ROBOT. This
would be prohibited, as the transmission – although made during the competition season
– was built from detailed designs developed prior to Kickoff.
as stated, was a prohibited activity. Now it's legal as long as the designs are open sourced prior to Kickoff.
2014 R13:
2015 R13:
It did change. Before
as stated, was a prohibited activity. Now it's legal as long as the designs are open sourced prior to Kickoff.
I think this is evidence that it hasn't changed, based on 2014's part D. It does point to streamlining the rule book, which I have speculated is much of the change already, but I think the intent is still the same.
notmattlythgoe
30-12-2014, 12:00
I think this is evidence that it hasn't changed, based on 2014's part D. It does point to streamlining the rule book, which I have speculated is much of the change already, but I think the intent is still the same.
Agreed, I think it more just a clarification on what needs to be made public. Pictures of cad designs don't cut it, the source files actually need released to the public if you plan on using them.
2014 R13:
2015 R13:
It did change. Before
as stated, was a prohibited activity. Now it's legal as long as the designs are open sourced prior to Kickoff.
True. My stating that the rule has been standing for a while wasn't the best way to state it. It's not exactly a new rule, but a recycled one. Look at the rule for 2013.
"4.1.4.1 R16
ROBOT elements, including software, that are designed or created before Kickoff are not permitted, unless they are
publicly available prior to Kickoff."
Frank reminded us a couple months ago not to assume previous rules apply to this year's competition. That recommendation has been longstanding and is nothing new.
Another example. One year we can not use springs, the next year we can, and the following we can not.
"Everything changes and nothing stands still." -Heraclitus
So... is there no longer an exception for bumpers or the operator console? That could indicate that both are changing dramatically this year (so previous designs wouldn't be relevant). Bumper rules were one of the things called out in Frank's original "something is changing" blog post...
Kevin Thorp
30-12-2014, 15:05
I think I cracked the code. Coca-Cola has gotten involved (http://www.coca-colacompany.com/press-center/press-releases/deka-partnership-announcement) with FIRST and Dean's company, DEKA. There will be Coke machines at either end of the playing field. Your robot will have to insert "change" (get it?) in to the coin slot, make a selection and lift the chosen bottle/can out of the receptacle. Then you open the bottle or can & pour it's contents into a reservoir on your robot. (Side note: if the machines only serve bottled water, there's your long-anticipated water game). Then the bots place the empty bottle/can in the RECYCLE BIN! An added benefit is the exhausted drive team can drink the contents of the reservoir at the end of the match.
You're welcome.
Duffy509
30-12-2014, 15:58
I think I cracked the code. Coca-Cola has gotten involved (http://www.coca-colacompany.com/press-center/press-releases/deka-partnership-announcement) with FIRST and Dean's company, DEKA. There will be Coke machines at either end of the playing field. Your robot will have to insert "change" (get it?) in to the coin slot, make a selection and lift the chosen bottle/can out of the receptacle. Then you open the bottle or can & pour it's contents into a reservoir on your robot. (Side note: if the machines only serve bottled water, there's your long-anticipated water game). Then the bots place the empty bottle/can in the RECYCLE BIN! An added benefit is the exhausted drive team can drink the contents of the reservoir at the end of the match.
I highly doubt that Mr.Kamen would allow something like that. DEKA has always been neutral in FIRST and has never had projects that influence the game. The GDC (Game Design Committee) would not take a DEKA project and involve it in the game due to not having sufficient knowledge as they are two separate entities and Mr.Kamen would highly oppose it.
Kevin Thorp
30-12-2014, 16:29
I highly doubt that Mr.Kamen would allow something like that...
CokeMachineBot is disappointed.
http://i58.tinypic.com/4ns6g.jpg
Darkseer54
30-12-2014, 16:43
My new take on the game hint. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkErycB4Ahg)
So, I'll admit to not having read the entirety of this thread, but on the subject of triangles, and more specifically, deltas, there is apparently a type of robot referred to as a "Delta Bot" that is often used to move materials in industry (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_robot I may have misinterpreted the entry, but it's still a better lead than 'water game!' ;-) ) Maybe instead of game pieces going directly from the human players to the robot, there will be a delta bot transferring them?
HumblePie
31-12-2014, 10:49
In the past, hints have led us to the name of the game and little more. My guess for the name of the game is "Change of Pace", and what the game entails, who knows. But, the most outrageous change I can think of going forward is this........... Dean Kamen appears at Kickoff.......wait for it...........sans denim! :ahh:
Msumat17
31-12-2014, 12:47
The game manual is only 65 pages this year, because when I go the the game manual link (on my iPhone at least) it says "0 of 65" for what page it is.
https://rps01.usfirst.org/frc/manual/2015/FRC2015GameManual-Encrypted.pdf
This is a substantial change compared to 93 pages in the 2014 manual. Could this be the change they are talking about?
I very much doubt it will happen (at least this year), especially considering the lack of any evidence to support it, but just in case, I'd like to officially lay claim to being the first to proposing a caution cone gamepeice (at least in this year's round of speculation; someone else may have done it in past years)!
Kevin Thorp
31-12-2014, 14:33
I very much doubt it will happen (at least this year), especially considering the lack of any evidence to support it, but just in case, I'd like to officially lay claim to being the first to proposing a caution cone gamepeice (at least in this year's round of speculation; someone else may have done it in past years)!
This would be fun to work with:
http://i59.tinypic.com/ifbkes.jpg
Nathan Rossi
31-12-2014, 14:41
The game manual is only 65 pages this year, because when I go the the game manual link (on my iPhone at least) it says "0 of 65" for what page it is.
https://rps01.usfirst.org/frc/manual/2015/FRC2015GameManual-Encrypted.pdf
This is a substantial change compared to 93 pages in the 2014 manual. Could this be the change they are talking about?
Is someone else able to replicate this? I don't have an i-device to try it on and I can't seem to replicate it on any of my devices.
If the manual is really down to 65 pages, that's a great change. It will make the manual much less intimidating to read. Hopefully, we'll see a lot more people reading the manual this year.
DonRotolo
31-12-2014, 14:45
(Side note: if the machines only serve bottled water, there's your long-anticipated water game). Funny you mention that. 3 years ago at CMP, at one of Bill Miller's last Ask Bill meetings, he introduced some of the GDC, and one woman (I don't know her name, but it was her last year on the GDC) said (for all to hear) "we've developed a water (bottle*) game!". (She backed off the mic a little for the word "bottle"). The crowd gasped...
The game manual is only 65 pages this yearI can't remember where exactly, but Frank said the rules would be significantly shorter this year, much simplified. This was some months ago. Guess it's true! Thank goodness, almost 100 pages was too much.
And, as far as change goes, I am STILL afraid of it (see my post at the beginning of this thread).
Jacob Bendicksen
31-12-2014, 14:59
Is someone else able to replicate this? I don't have an i-device to try it on and I can't seem to replicate it on any of my devices.
If the manual is really down to 65 pages, that's a great change. It will make the manual much less intimidating to read. Hopefully, we'll see a lot more people reading the manual this year.
I just tried it on my phone and can confirm - 65 pages.
pwschrantz
31-12-2014, 17:00
I think the game will be called Transition Tower or Rally Relay -Some type of relay race with moving or re-positioning game pieces with your alliance partners!!
Good Luck Everyone and See you on Jan 3rd!!
brianthebold
31-12-2014, 17:05
Inaugural Competition
Robots increase in size and go wireless
Robot weight increases
Robot alliances begin
Robots race against the clock
Autonomous Mode introduced
3 v 3 introduced
Primary field surface isn't carpet for first time since 1992
Frame perimeter changes
Capitalized letters spell out ICRRRRAMPF. It might be a bit of a stretch, but I see Icy Ramp.
DonRotolo
31-12-2014, 17:58
Capitalized letters spell out ICRRRRAMPF. It might be a bit of a stretch, but I see Icy Ramp.
I see "I Cramp". Either we deal with low intestinal fortitude or our style will be impinged upon. :p
Change is coming.
AndyBare
31-12-2014, 18:33
Just an idea, can anyone name some of the major changes that FIRST didn't in the video, etc. Bumpers introduced and stuff like that. They wouldn't simply hand us the answers. They'd expect us to think they were though.
Inaugural Competition
Robots increase in size and go wireless
Robot weight increases
Robot alliances begin
Robots race against the clock
Autonomous Mode introduced
3 v 3 introduced
Primary field surface isn't carpet for first time since 1992
Frame perimeter changes
Capitalized letters spell out ICRRRRAMPF. It might be a bit of a stretch, but I see Icy Ramp.
I see my name! Maybe it's a game sponsored by the Dodge Ram? :p
Just an idea, can anyone name some of the major changes that FIRST didn't in the video, etc. Bumpers introduced and stuff like that. They wouldn't simply hand us the answers. They'd expect us to think they were though.
Bumpers introduced--2006 (optional), 2008 (mandatory)--probably why they didn't mention that.
2006--Game played in offense/defense periods.
2007--"staggered height/weight". Long story short, the taller you were, the lighter you needed to be.
There was a sizing box change in 2005, after another one in the late 90s; the weight changed to exclude the battery the year before.
Penalties became Fouls in 2012, and instead of reducing your score they increased your opponents' score (same time).
Red/Yellow cards were introduced in Breakaway, as I recall (2010) after having been used at IRI since '04 or so.
4-team elimination alliances at CMP was a change in 2014; the elimination alliance structure previously changed in '06 (the serpentine draft) and '05 (introduction of the backup robots).
I thought about asking a random non-FIRSTer what the first thing that popped into their mind was when I said "Change is coming", but decided against that.
I see "I Cramp". Either we deal with low intestinal fortitude or our style will be impinged upon. :p
Change is coming.
I saw crrrrap. Must be on same wavelength:)
Harman341
01-01-2015, 07:44
I'm fairly surprised anagrams and stuff of the like has not really been discussed for "change is coming"
One I found was "ic hanging comes"
maddog175
01-01-2015, 08:32
I thought I saw at least 1 anagram of "change is coming" (maybe not in this thread?). Found several, which may be at least mildly interesting:
chasing coin gem
chasm - nice going
gain some c-ching
going mechanics
Also thought of changing "is coming"...
mini cogs
I M cosign
I just tried it on my phone and can confirm - 65 pages.
+1
So in my mind after spending 3 hours reading most of this thread and the USFIRST website this is what I am thinking.
Either Hockey, Football, or Baseball
Weight Reduction and Perimeter Change
Major Overhaul of the Rule Book
Same field as prior years (Andymark's website shows that it is confirmed)
NO water game or HPs on the field
NO alliance members change
Also I am pretty sure there will be an autonomous endgame that would require some sort of self-positioning on the field (ex. GPS, IR, Sonar)
http://www.andymark.com/Field-p/am-2800.htm "FIRST® has determined that this Field Perimeter has the ‘fit and function’ necessary for use in the 2015 FRC."
What if the change is that there are no gamepeices? I'm really not sure hoe that would go, but it would certainly be a pretty big change. Maybe you manipulate something that's a part of the field? Maybe it's robot jousting and you get points by hitting opponents (in a non-damaging manner, of course).
IronicDeadBird
01-01-2015, 14:17
What if the change is that there are no gamepeices? I'm really not sure hoe that would go, but it would certainly be a pretty big change. Maybe you manipulate something that's a part of the field? Maybe it's robot jousting and you get points by hitting opponents (in a non-damaging manner, of course).
That could be possible, imagine the long box in KOP is a different surface with a bit less traction and what better thing to do on a slick surface then king of the hill!
Would be nice a hockey game
75vs1885
01-01-2015, 16:08
So in my mind after spending 3 hours reading most of this thread and the USFIRST website this is what I am thinking.
Either Hockey, Football, or Baseball
Weight Reduction and Perimeter Change
Major Overhaul of the Rule Book
Same field as prior years (Andymark's website shows that it is confirmed)
NO water game or HPs on the field
NO alliance members change
Also I am pretty sure there will be an autonomous endgame that would require some sort of self-positioning on the field (ex. GPS, IR, Sonar)
how did Andy Mark confirm the same fields as prior years?
thatprogrammer
01-01-2015, 16:46
how did Andy Mark confirm the same fields as prior years?
AndyMark's new field was approved by FIRST for usage.
http://www.andymark.com/mobile/product.aspx?ProductCode=am%2D2800&404;http://www.andymark.com:80/Field-p/am-2800.htm=
We are happy to announce that FIRST® has determined that this Field Perimeter has the ‘fit and function’ necessary for use in the 2015 FRC
Abhishek R
01-01-2015, 16:48
Change is coming. The game piece will be pennies.
Change is coming. The game piece will be pennies.
RIP open gearboxes.
RIP open gearboxes.
Not if you use a gearbox from those machines that turn pennies into elongated souvenirs.
how did Andy Mark confirm the same fields as prior years?
AndyMark's new field was approved by FIRST for usage.
http://www.andymark.com/mobile/product.aspx?ProductCode=am%2D2800&404;http://www.andymark.com:80/Field-p/am-2800.htm=
We are happy to announce that FIRST® has determined that this Field Perimeter has the ‘fit and function’ necessary for use in the 2015 FRC
Note that is not a confirmation that the field is the same as prior years. The field is modular so the only confirmation is that the interfaces where FIRST has made the year to year modifications in the past is the same. For example the 2014 field had the side boarders assembled in a "non standard" fashion so that the robot gate was in a different location. For 2013 there were two pieces of the side boarder that were not used to allow for the angled corners. Another example was that the 2014 field used a different top Polycarb retainers to account for the narrower field. In 2013 the two middle uprights were not used so the driver's station end would be narrower to accommodate the angled corners.
One of the changes that AM had to make before their field was approved was to change the side panel to driver's station interface to be compatible with the standard field.
So that means while a large portion of the field will be the same would could see another 8 sided field, or a field that has slightly different dimensions than 27x54 and the AM field could still be used.
mman1506
01-01-2015, 18:13
When did FIRST start using the clam shells for the KOP?
(I don't mean to make reference to anything that may or may not have happened , I'm just curious)
Poseidon5817
01-01-2015, 18:50
Capitalized letters spell out ICRRRRAMPF. It might be a bit of a stretch, but I see Icy Ramp.
Aim High played on the field surface from 2009.
That could be possible, imagine the long box in KOP is a different surface with a bit less traction and what better thing to do on a slick surface then king of the hill!
I think if you set it up the right way, that would certainly make an interesting game.
DohertyBilly
01-01-2015, 19:43
That could be possible, imagine the long box in KOP is a different surface with a bit less traction and what better thing to do on a slick surface then king of the hill!
That was 2003
The game manual is only 65 pages this year, because when I go the the game manual link (on my iPhone at least) it says "0 of 65" for what page it is.
https://rps01.usfirst.org/frc/manual/2015/FRC2015GameManual-Encrypted.pdf
This is a substantial change compared to 93 pages in the 2014 manual. Could this be the change they are talking about?
Maybe you should consider the possibility that the encryption reduces the length...
Maxwell777
01-01-2015, 20:41
I don't think that's quite right. If I understand, the issue is space and adding more teams per alliance wouldn't really allow for more teams at St. Louis.
Adding another team to each alliance would reduce the total number of matches, making events faster. However, time hasn't been much of an issue recently, or at least as far as I know.
minch1396
01-01-2015, 20:42
my oh my.... change is coming...
There's been so many large robots! And the perimeter of the arena has changed before...BIG CHANGE = SMALL ROBOTS?
What if the change is that there are no gamepeices? I'm really not sure hoe that would go, but it would certainly be a pretty big change. Maybe you manipulate something that's a part of the field? Maybe it's robot jousting and you get points by hitting opponents (in a non-damaging manner, of course).
No game pieces could mean robots skateboarding...
Well, yes. Team 71 did it in 2002 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eKvva_ZCHw) (they're the robot coming in from the left), and that robot became one of the most famous in FRC history.
And, in addition to leveling the playing field, it could also rip it up, literally. With the huge requirement on traction that year, many teams (especially 71) ended up tearing the carpet pretty badly. FIRST changed the rules on what could be used for traction devices the following year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4slvnvPHW8
That video has a better view of it walking & pushing at 00:18 and a real good close up of it walking at 00:23 (Can't see the Team # on the bot though).
orangemoore
01-01-2015, 21:05
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4slvnvPHW8
That video has a better view of it walking & pushing at 00:18 and a real good close up of it walking at 00:23 (Can't see the Team # on the bot though).
That is 71
In the past, hints have led us to the name of the game and little more. My guess for the name of the game is "Change of Pace", and what the game entails, who knows. But, the most outrageous change I can think of going forward is this........... Dean Kamen appears at Kickoff.......wait for it...........sans denim! :ahh:
Not Going To.....Happen! As LIBBY always says "Denim is in the genes!":cool:
I just tried it on my phone and can confirm - 65 pages.
We just attempted to confirm this on both iPhone & iPad and could NOT Confirm on either device. Until you can decrypt with a proper password nothing of the kind showed up.
Downloaded on Mac laptop. Says 65 pages
Canon reeves
02-01-2015, 01:12
I present to you, the 2015 FRC game, Bothockey! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SIsbHtJHFw)
indubitably
02-01-2015, 01:41
While 65 pages is a big departure from the 111 pages it had last year, I think most of the reduction will be due to formatting. The 2014 admin manual was 78 pages with 26,407 words and the 2015 admin manual is only 51 pages with 23,950 words. So 35% percent reduction in page size with only a 10% reduction in words.
Here is a quick comparison picture (new manual is on the left):
mdiradoorian
02-01-2015, 03:21
Aim High played on the field surface from 2009.
That would definitely be awesome, but I would much rather play hockey on the 2009 surface which I will not name.
DonRotolo
02-01-2015, 09:44
That would definitely be awesome, but I would much rather play hockey on the 2009 surface which I will not name.
Oh, is that how it is now? "The surface that must not be named"? It loses its power if you use its proper name you know... :p
Oh, is that how it is now? "The surface that must not be named"? It loses its power if you use its proper name you know... :p
No, the Deatheaters will find you if you name it. That's how Harry got caught.
Voldelith.
iceBird10
02-01-2015, 11:50
Think about it. There's pretty much three categories of games: balls, inner-tubes, or some unique specialty thing. We had a ball game last year. We had a specialty game before that (Ultimate Ascent), a ball game before that (Rebound Rumble), and an inner-tube game before that (LogoMotion). I think it's about time for another resurrection of the inner-tubes.
As YouTube commenters have pointed out, the "1999 game footage" that they show is actually footage from Toroid Terror in 1997. Frank acknowledged this to blog posters with a simple "Whoops" - http://bit.ly/177Gf1q
That's definitely a hint. Inner-tube type game with significant structural changes with respect to alliances, robot weight, field size, etc. confirmed.
Amar Shah
02-01-2015, 12:04
No, the Deatheaters will find you if you name it. That's how Harry got caught.
Voldelith.
It's as smooth as He-who-must-not-be-named's face.
Jim Wilks
02-01-2015, 14:20
It's as smooth as He-who-must-not-be-named's face.
It's just Lunacy to talk about a field surface this way!
wilhitern1
02-01-2015, 14:34
One of the most unusual changes I can imagine is moving the Autonomous to the end. Imagine having to load your robot, Clear your opponents scoring area, and position your robot so that your autonomous runs correctly. A buzzer and 3 seconds for the teams to clear out, then autonomous starts. It could be a really tough challenge.
Neal
2015 Kickoff broadcast (Open Captioned) is currently playing classical music, so the new game will have something to do with having robots play instruments, and the winner will be decided by applause level.
vladtheimpaled
02-01-2015, 14:36
Water game with water made out of denim
BryceKarlins
02-01-2015, 16:09
One of the most unusual changes I can imagine is moving the Autonomous to the end. Imagine having to load your robot, Clear your opponents scoring area, and position your robot so that your autonomous runs correctly. A buzzer and 3 seconds for the teams to clear out, then autonomous starts. It could be a really tough challenge.
I personally don't see them moving autonomous to the end, but if they did, the challenge would either be positioning/loading your robot before the start of the aton. period, or designing your autonomous so that it works in any position on the field (compass and gps?).
Kingland093
02-01-2015, 16:11
If that's true I'm sure Kinect/Cheezy Vision will become extremely useful
pimathbrainiac
02-01-2015, 16:13
I personally don't see them moving autonomous to the end, but if they did, the challenge would either be positioning/loading your robot before the start of the aton. period, or designing your autonomous so that it works in any position on the field (compass and gps?).
or dead reckoning
2015 Kickoff broadcast (Open Captioned) is currently playing classical music, so the new game will have something to do with having robots play instruments, and the winner will be decided by applause level.
Currently, they're playing Gershwin's Rhapsody in blue, water is blue, water game confirmed.
alexander.h
02-01-2015, 16:18
While 65 pages is a big departure from the 111 pages it had last year, I think most of the reduction will be due to formatting. The 2014 admin manual was 78 pages with 26,407 words and the 2015 admin manual is only 51 pages with 23,950 words. So 35% percent reduction in page size with only a 10% reduction in words.
Here is a quick comparison picture (new manual is on the left):
So all this excitement over a shorter game manual sums up to using a smaller font and less paragraph spacing ... and just when it was getting good :(
Just wondering when was the last time only one hint was sent leading up to kickoff
Shifting autonomous to the end has an unique advantage from a tournament execution viewpoint.
It shortens pre-match setup time and gives the teams a different challenge than before.
It could work. Especially if the startup position is outside the main playing area. It saves a fair bit of time getting the next match going if the match queue has been "pre-loaded" with robots ready to go.
Imagine an official "On Deck Circle" for the next matches' robots on each side. No practice swings of course... :-)
alexander.h
02-01-2015, 16:33
Just wondering when was the last time only one hint was sent leading up to kickoff
One could say in 2014, if you don't take into account the update ...
Original hint : 8234/57, 61126/1963, 62326/15806
Updated hint : 61474:135, 12661:1963, 32662:15806
Not much of a difference if you ask me, so I guess that the last time FIRST only gave us one hint prior to kickoff was last year ...
Just wondering when was the last time only one hint was sent leading up to kickoff
Actually, this is usually the case. It is not the norm for there to be more than one game hint:
2015 (Kickoff Date: 1/3/15) = 1st Game Hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=131671) (12/22/14)
2014 (Kickoff Date: 1/4/14) = 1st Game Hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110159) (12/20/13)
2013 (Kickoff Date: 1/5/13) = 1st Game Hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98583) (12/21/12)
2012 (Kickoff Date: 1/7/12) = 1st Game Hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98583) (12/02/11)
2011 (Kickoff Date: 1/8/11) = 1st Game Hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88030) (12/21/10), 2nd Game Hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88242) (1/4/11)
2010 (Kickoff Date: 1/9/10) = 1st Game Hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79453) (12/24/09), 2nd Game Hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79637) (1/6/10)
2009 (Kickoff Date: 1/10/09 ) = 1st Game Hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70345&highlight=game+hint) (12/4/08), 2nd Game Hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70514) (12/11/08),
2008 (Kickoff Date: 1/12/08) = 1st Game Hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60132) (12/15/07), 2nd Game Hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60297) (12/21/07), 3rd Game Hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60580) (1/02/08)
2007 (Kickoff Date: 1/13/07) = 1st Game Hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50637) (12/21/06)
2006 (Kickoff Date: 1/7/06) = 1st Game Hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41013) (12/23/05)
2005 (Kickoff Date: 1/8/05) = 1st Game Hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32010) (12/30/04)
2004 (Kickoff Date: 1/10/04) = 1st Game Hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23399) (1/6/04)
Out of the past 12 years (including 2015), there has only been more than one game hint 4 times, or 1/3rd of the time.
alexander.h
02-01-2015, 16:59
Actually, this is usually the case. It is not the norm for there to be more than one game hint:
[...]
2014 (Kickoff Date: 1/4/14) = 1st Game Hint (12/20/13)
[...]
Out of the past 12 years (including 2015), there has only been more than one game hint 4 times, or 1/3rd of the time.
What I'm wondering is if we can count 2014's hint as a single one since there was an update that was released not too long after to supposedly make it easier for all of us to understand ...
Original hint : 8234/57, 61126/1963, 62326/15806
Updated hint : 61474:135, 12661:1963, 32662:15806
They weren't exactly the same, but they were almost the same, so : one hint or two in 2014?
What I'm wondering is if we can count 2014's hint as a single one since there was an update that was released not too long after to supposedly make it easier for all of us to understand ...
They weren't exactly the same, but they were almost the same, so : one hint or two in 2014?
I count it as one. According to Frank (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-Kickoff-Broadcast-Game-Hint-Redux), "We did, however, on double checking, find that the first set of numbers in the hint contained a potential error, or at least data we can't verify at this point. We aren’t saying it’s wrong, we’re just not 100% sure it’s right. So maybe we should have spent a little more time on this one! Sorry about that. As compensation, we're replacing that set of numbers with a new set that should get you to the same answer. We've also reformatted some of the numbers to hopefully make them a little more familiar." Thus, the original hint that they gave was possibly incorrect, so they simply edited the hint to ensure that the data was right. One hint.
But, this is getting off-track, back to the 2015 hint...
alexander.h
02-01-2015, 17:11
I count it as one. [...] Thus, the original hint that they gave was possibly incorrect, so they simply edited the hint to ensure that the data was right. One hint.
I'll give that one to you ... anyways, back to 2015! 17 hours 'till kickoff to see if any of us succeeded in deciphering the code!
mrmummert
02-01-2015, 21:39
Woodie gave a hint...."Man who wait for roast duck to fly into mouth wait a long time"...we're gonna throw roasted ducks at human players" (that or a rubber chicken)
Roar1261
02-01-2015, 21:43
My kickoff event is tomorrow at Georgia Tech, but I predict that 2015's game will include water, spheroid-looking objects, and some surprise element.
Roar1261
02-01-2015, 21:48
They can't, shouldn't, and hopefully wont redo last year's game. Everyone would just use their last robot with a few modifications and that would be that. If they do Aerial Assist again, they might as well have Worlds in January.
They can't, shouldn't, and hopefully wont redo last year's game. Everyone would just use their last robot with a few modifications and that would be that. If they do Aerial Assist again, they might as well have Worlds in January.
Unless they have an endgame that requires something extra... :D
AndyBare
02-01-2015, 22:16
If last year's game was repeated, I don't think there'd be a single team that didn't touch/upgrade their robot. Six build weeks is close to nothing in the crunch, so getting an extra six could lead to an exponentially greater outcome of power all across the boards.
Amy33Amy33
02-01-2015, 22:21
I did an analysis on the shot composition of the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH8k8EkM6Bo&
There is definitely an emphasis on game pieces, and going back to the past...
tindleroot
02-01-2015, 22:34
They can't, shouldn't, and hopefully wont redo last year's game. Everyone would just use their last robot with a few modifications and that would be that. If they do Aerial Assist again, they might as well have Worlds in January.
No, everyone would attempt to copy 254's design (though few would be successful)
SpaceBiz
02-01-2015, 22:35
LESS THAN 12 HOURS TO KICKOFF
At this point we should stop reading this obnoxiously long thread and get some sleep. If you stay up all night reading, you won't be awake for what could be the most exciting kickoff we have experienced. Maybe post your best guess for bragging rights.
Has anyone thought of an ending autonomous period? That would be a huuge game changer.
There have been many posts on this thread about the likeliness of an auton endgame. Read up on all of the ideas.
minch1396
02-01-2015, 23:10
GUYS![/COLOR] Okay, so you know how in the video, the 2014 manual specifically was reCYCLEd? Remember how last year, Aerial Assist had a CYCLE in the game that had to be completed in order to gain more and more points? What if FRC does something just like that this year? Any thoughts???
Jarren Harkema
02-01-2015, 23:20
I... Can't... Believe... I have read every... Single... Post... On this thread...
kayleighs_13
02-01-2015, 23:24
I... Can't... Believe... I have read every... Single... Post... On this thread...
You are not alone good sir. I've learned that it's easier to start when it does and just keep updated... like Facebook. This is kind of social media for FIRST...
tindleroot
02-01-2015, 23:26
You are not alone good sir. I've learned that it's easier to start when it does and just keep updated... like Facebook. This is kind of social media for FIRST...
I've been doing that too :)
Joey1939
02-01-2015, 23:29
Has anyone thought of an ending autonomous period? That would be a huuge game changer.
A lot of people have mentioned this idea. I like this idea, but there is absolutely no evidence to support that it will happen this year.
minch1396
02-01-2015, 23:56
I... Can't... Believe... I have read every... Single... Post... On this thread...
we all have...and we're going crazy over it!
chiefwebmaster
03-01-2015, 00:58
I'm going with Delta Dual or Delta Duel as the name of the game. Just for bragging rights.
Poseidon5817
03-01-2015, 01:06
I'm going with a mass ball collection game. Just for bragging rights.
Footballs would be cool.
Just for bragging rights...
Pick-and-place game. Big change from the last 3 seasons.
Just for bragging rights...
Pick-and-place game. Big change from the last 3 seasons.
I'll get on board with that. I'm tired of shooting games (never seen one that isn't).
K-Dawg157
03-01-2015, 01:26
If we're doing for bragging rights... ::rtm:: I think multiple *different* game pieces being manipulated. (Hopefully not Shooting... This is my last year, I'm done with shooting! Haha)
Happy Build Season! ::ouch::
Grab and dump game. Just for the bragging rights.
Jaywalker1711
03-01-2015, 02:05
For bragging rights:
Relay game (with a pole)
No game pieces, less robot contact rules
Shorter or divided matches
And what I really think wil happen due to the hint: a change in the alliance system
Good luck out there tomorrow. Can't wait to see what the "almost nothing" that we have to worry about is
indubitably
03-01-2015, 02:27
For bragging rights, my guess about the coming "change" would be that the game would be played differently for quals and elims. Perhaps a 6v0 for the quals and 3v3 for the elims with roughly the same objective.
I'm thinking the recycling bin has something to do with it all...bringing boxes/bins back... Being green/eco-friendly! Maybe catagorizing goals to dispense balls or some other field element into "recycle," "compost," "trash," etc. goals, and have to move em around or into zones. Now that there could be an educational point to it as well.
Bryce Paputa
03-01-2015, 06:39
Pick and place or stacking. Probably a modified clone of a past game.
Duffy509
03-01-2015, 06:50
Jut for bragging rights
Mystery 3x3x60 box is a pool noodle.
Get your bumpers ready for competition correctly.:cool:
Jut for bragging rights
Mystery 3x3x60 box is a pool noodle.
Get your bumpers ready for competition correctly.:cool:
A x<60" robot perimeter? Looks like the change already came.
alexander.h
03-01-2015, 07:27
I really have no idea what I'm talking about, but I'll throw this just just like this (for bragging rights hopefully!) : the game pieces will be boxes/crates.
Harman341
03-01-2015, 07:38
I say a stacking game, been ages since we had one.
Interesting note, 2003 was a placing game so was 2007, 2011 so why not 2015
Duffy509
03-01-2015, 07:41
A x<60" robot perimeter? Looks like the change already came.
That is simply the length of the pool noodle. A joke from FIRST on the quality of bumpers. But still that's just a theory made for the rare chance it happens.
For bragging rights:
Hockey (with a slick surface) or golf (with fake grass) as a hockey puck or golf club could be the sixty inch package in the kit of parts...
alexander.h
03-01-2015, 07:54
the game pieces will be boxes/crates.
+
I say a stacking game
= a game where we will have to stack boxes ...
I know it sounds a bit simplistic for the moment, but this is just the main idea of the game, and other more complex details and game objectives will be added onto this idea. All will be revealed in a bit more than 2 hours!
kylestach1678
03-01-2015, 08:29
Capital letters of specified changes spell out ICRRRRAMPF. Remove the repeat letters so that all letters are new, or changed. You get ICRAMPF. The only apparent word in this is RAMP, but if you remove that you get ICF, or International Canoe Federation. We are going to be canoeing up ramps. You heard it here first. ;)
Has anyone noticed that on the FRC Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIRST_Robotics_Competition) the 2015 game is listed as "Sea-saw Splash"? Is there any reasoning or validity to this?
alexander.h
03-01-2015, 09:21
Has anyone noticed that on the FRC Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIRST_Robotics_Competition) the 2015 game is listed as "Sea-saw Splash"? Is there any reasoning or validity to this?
I can assure you that there is no credibility behind this. After all, it is Wikipedia. For more info, you can go see this thread : http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131624.
LR_connor
03-01-2015, 10:07
Alright, let me see if I can follow the clues...
Change is coming is a riff off of Winter is coming from Game of Thrones...
Winter is the 4th season of the year...
Water freezes in the winter...
Water game confirmed?
This is the best logical response I've heard
roboryan
03-01-2015, 10:14
Just tell us the game already FIRST!!!!!
blackbrandt
03-01-2015, 10:28
Almost time... :)
Blair's wearing a cycling jersey, I think.
scooty199
03-01-2015, 10:30
Cycling, That was a reCycling bin
Change.
We know that the game will most likely have three teams per alliance because of 4.5.1 in the administrative manual. "Practice matches are randomly assigned and each team is assigned an equal number of practice matches unless the number of teams multiplied by the number of practice matches is not divisible by six."
We know that the field will most likely be rectangular, because of AndyMark. "FIRST® has determined that this Field Perimeter has the ‘fit and function’ necessary for use in the 2015 FRC."
Link: http://www.andymark.com/Field-p/am-2800.htm
What will be the significance of "change is coming?"
scooty199
03-01-2015, 10:33
Everything they mention here is revolving or orbiting, or going in a cycle of some sort.
scooty199
03-01-2015, 10:41
Another thing, that graph from PTC was a cycle in graph theory.
gabrielau23
03-01-2015, 10:53
Game has "Dynamic" inside the name.
scooty199
03-01-2015, 10:55
Change 1 = No bumpers!
Morgan B
03-01-2015, 11:01
Pool noodles - pool - water - foreshadowing next year's water game
alexander.h
03-01-2015, 11:08
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1419564&postcount=689
Nothing else to say.
Someone also mentioned 2 mostly separate games going on at once.
Someone also came up with the litter mechanic ala that middle school game where you throw all the trash on the other side of the gym.
Show yourselves to receive your prize: bragging rights!
gavmac928
04-01-2015, 00:02
Someone also mentioned 2 mostly separate games going on at once.
Someone also came up with the litter mechanic ala that middle school game where you throw all the trash on the other side of the gym.
Show yourselves to receive your prize: bragging rights!
People who said more than one game piece also get some bragging rights. I didn't come up with the idea but I joined that band wagon
jvriezen
04-01-2015, 06:00
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1416736&postcount=411
Wow.
Richard Wallace
04-01-2015, 07:36
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1416736&postcount=411
Wow.Wow indeed. Can we borrow your time machine to find out how the GDC is going to respond re: the noodle agreement?
...how the GDC is going to respond re: the noodle agreement?
Maybe have the noodle score be based on the difference in noodles between the two alliances. If both sides have 10 noodles there is no score for either alliance.
jvriezen
04-01-2015, 07:46
Wow indeed. Can we borrow your time machine to find out how the GDC is going to respond re: the noodle agreement?
Hmm. I'm guessing thery will they will recognize it as a design flaw, fix it and then we'll refer to it as the released game's "Litter Bug"
Richard Wallace
04-01-2015, 08:09
Maybe have the noodle score be based on the difference in noodles between the two alliances. If both sides have 10 noodles there is no score for either alliance.
I agree -- several in that TNA thread have suggested the same. But, unless John shares his time machine, we will have to wait a few days for the official response. His last trip into the future was so successful that I was hoping he might do it again. :)
@John: yeah, it looks like a Litter Bug to me, too.
M1KRONAUT
05-01-2015, 22:23
2002 Stack Attack + 2009 Lunacy = 2015 Game Confirmed
THIS IS IT.
...except instead of round pieces and trailers, there are noodles and recycle bins.
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