Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts

[Bochek]

I have had a few of my posts deleted in the last 24 hours because they contained some information that the moderators don't want the community hearing.

I have made sure not to post any of this information in this post in hopes that the moderators allow this post to stay so we can have a civilized discussion on the topic.

I feel that it is wrong and insulting for the moderators to censor the free flow of information. I come to CD to read about and discuss the latest news in the FRC community. This news should be no different then any other.

- Bochek

ps. please don't discuss the information the mods are trying to keep suppressed in this tread. We don't want this thread deleted too.

[Joe G.]

The topic in question compromises a core element of how FRC works, an element which in my opinion plays a huge part in making it highly effective. I personally believe that it is in our best interest as a community, and as participants in FRC, to respect the structure provided to us by FIRST.

As a result, I support keeping the topic in question under wraps as much as is possible, in order to maintain the intended operation of the program. I don't think equating maintaining the intended experience to censorship is quite right.

[Mike Marandola]

I have had a few of my posts deleted in the last 24 hours because they contained some information that the moderators don't want the community hearing.

I have made sure not to post any of this information in this post in hopes that the moderators allow this post to stay so we can have a civilized discussion on the topic.

I feel that it is wrong and insulting for the moderators to censor the free flow of information. I come to CD to read about and discuss the latest news in the FRC community. This news should be no different then any other.

- Bochek

ps. please don't discuss the information the mods are trying to keep suppressed in this tread. We don't want this thread deleted too.


If you aren't going to mention what information you believe is being suppressed, what is the point of this thread?

Clarification edit: I was not advocating posting the information here.

[notmattlythgoe]

If you aren't going to mention what information you believe is being suppressed, what is the point of this thread?

To discuss the ethics of deleting posts, not the information that was deleted.

[Bochek]

If you aren't going to mention what information you believe is being suppressed, what is the point of this thread?



To discuss the fact that the moderators feel its okay to keep information to themselves. I believe that once something is found out about the game, it should be shared between all of the teams. Everyone should have an even advantage.

[Aren Siekmeier]

I am also a little bit disturbed about an entire thread and 10+ posts in another simply disappearing with no trace. It makes perfect sense that the site originally hosting the information would take it down immediately. But CD is a more or less unaffiliated community space, where we would not expect certain party's special interests to be protected by censorship. If the censored material were related to some of the more important issues discussed on these boards, it would obviously not be OK to slant the discussion and community's awareness like this. As it was, the offending material was relatively harmless and frivolous, and I'm not terribly upset. But it still gives me a little bit of a bad feeling.

It's also my gut feeling that this is not a matter of consensus among the mods. For one, there are so many that there is likely never a perfect consensus to be found. But also, I think many of them would share the sentiment that removing these discussions is not something we want to happen. But of course it only takes a few mods who disagree to go ahead and take it down. I hope that they are not acting on behalf of the relevant parties.

EDIT: In the time between clicking reply and making my first post, several people made their own posts. Several have since posted as well (in particular, thanks GKrotkov for pointing to some relevant forum rules). Having had a chance to read these, I see a very strong case for the censorship as well. It is important to the FRC community to maintain kickoff hype and to abide by FIRST's policies for information release. Jessica gives some great examples of past precedent that I didn't make the effort to search out. Finally, I don't think any mods were acting to cover someone's butt as I made it seem in my above post. Their intentions are in fact in the community's interest.

I'm totally fine with the information in question being suppressed. I just get a little shaken up when my posts go missing ;)

[Andrew Schreiber]

To discuss the fact that the moderators feel its okay to keep information to themselves. I believe that once something is found out about the game, it should be shared between all of the teams. Everyone should have an even advantage.

CD is a forum provided by a group of people. You use it with their permission. Don't like it? Don't use it.

[Jessica Boucher]

I wont speak for all the mods, but it looks like I'm the first one to the thread.

Since the late 90s when Chief started, the mods have been pretty consistent in their actions. Any discussion that concerns leaking the game in any way gets shut down to keep an even playing field. That includes the time an image repository was accidentally public, any (serious) manual cracking discussion, people breaking into SNHU, and even discussion about the time some kid went into the rock climbing place across from HQ to catch a glimpse of the 3rd floor.* Now that I think of it, this kind of thread is pretty common too, if you go digging.

Kickoff is my favorite of the FIRST events because everyone is in the best mood they will be all season. Noone's crabbing about rules, or who did what to whom, and everyone is well rested and optimistic. HQ has done lots of hard work all year long, we can wait a couple of days.

If you have an issue I recommend you speak to Mike Martus directly, because airing of grievances won't get you far. It never really does.

*(Ok, that one wasn't discussed, but it happened and I love telling that story.)

[GKrotkov]

Setting aside argument about the morality of leaked information:

But CD is a more or less unaffiliated community space, where we would not expect certain party's special interests to be protected by censorship.

The owners of the ChiefDelphi Forums have the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason.

It's as simple as that.

[Jessica Boucher]

It's as simple as that.

I was literally going to dig that one up! Thanks.

[Tungrus]

This is not new to CD. Any post that goes against GP, "critical" of volunteers or does not serve the CD community in positive way have disappeared. I don't know the contents of this specific posts, but at large, moderators seem to be doing a good job in keeping the website follow GP and stick with CD forum rules (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/rules.php).

[Andrew Schreiber]

This is not new to CD. Any post that goes against GP, "critical" of volunteers or does not serve the CD community in positive way have disappeared. I don't know the contents of this specific posts, but at large, moderators seem to be doing a good job in keeping the website follow GP and stick with CD forum rules (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/rules.php).

Hey now, as someone who has made a lot of posts critical of volunteers and that have been called "unGP"* I've never had a post deleted that I didn't request deleted. They don't moderate to remove a side of the story they don't want heard. They moderate to follow the rules we agreed to when we signed up.


* I contest the un GP part.

[Jon Stratis]

When it comes to leaking the game early (which seems to be what's being discussed, even though the OP doesn't say so specifically) and "censoring" the information on CD, I think everyone needs to think things through a bit.

The FIRST community is really an awesome one. From what I've seen, most people in the community, if presented with the game early, wouldn't try to gain an advantage by it. I know I, personally, would be super excited but wouldn't tell my team - they need to go through the experience the same as everyone else, on a level playing field. However, there are some people (and maybe even some teams) who would take advantage to get started early. And frankly, we would probably never know unless they said something.

So if someone comes across non-public material (or material that is supposed to be non-public) about the game, they need to stop and consider how they want to handle that material. They could look at it, get excited, and bask in the knowledge that they know something everyone else doesn't for a few days. They could use it to get started working early. They could simply pass it up. Or they could try to share it with as many people as possible.

The OP's position seems to be that such information should be leaked to as many people as possible so everyone has the same opportunity to cheat. In my opinion, that's wrong. The odds that someone will take the information and get started increase with the number of people who know such information - keeping it to yourself and not sharing helps ensure that fewer people know about it, and less cheating occurs.

Personally, I support the mods using their power on the forums to help ensure we preserve the format, intent, and purpose of the game and program. What are mods for, if not to actively moderate the discussion and keep us all in check? They aren't glorified babysitters who are here to only delete spam posts.

[orangemoore]

The posts in question at this point in time may not have been by the choice of the moderators of this forum. If what was in the posts was credible FIRST may have contacted them telling them to take it down or face legal action. It sounds extreme but I wouldn't be surprised if this is what happened.

[Tom Line]

The posts in question at this point in time may not have been by the choice of the moderators of this forum. If what was in the posts was credible FIRST may have contacted them telling them to take it down or face legal action. It sounds extreme but I wouldn't be surprised if this is what happened.

If you have ever dealt with the folks at first, you'd be EXTREMELY surprised if they threatened that sort of thing.

[orangemoore]

If you have ever dealt with the folks at first, you'd be EXTREMELY surprised if they threatened that sort of thing.

Okay so my point may have been extreme but they may have asked for it to be taken down.

[Anthony Galea]

I will not go into detail about what happened, but does anyone know if it is too late for them to possibly change the game, with that large of a leak?

Back at an FRC Live! I went to, Bill said the GDC keeps a game in backup in case they run into a major problem with the game they were planning to play

The only possible reasons it would stay the same are
1) whether they think this was severe enough
2) whether it is too close to kickoff to change the plans (I think this is likely, as everything has probably already been shipped to local kickoffs)

If this happened, say, two weeks ago, do you think they would have brought out the backup game?

[Aren Siekmeier]

Okay so my point may have been extreme but they may have asked for it to be taken down.

There were certainly Chief Delphi moderators involved. Threads can only be removed by moderators. Additionally, my post in the game hint thread was not deleted by me, but by a moderator. Whether they were acting on their own initiative or at the request of FIRST or Andymark is hard to tell, and probably not worth speculating about.

All this transpired within 10-20 minutes, from initial discovery to cleanup.

[Rosiebotboss]

If you have ever dealt with the folks at first, you'd be EXTREMELY surprised if they threatened that sort of thing.

Don't be surprised. All GDC, FIRST Employees that work in the "Game Design Dungeon" and remote Kick Off sites have to sign a NDA and I would assume there are legal ramifications if there is a leak.

[Tom Line]

Don't be surprised. All GDC, FIRST Employees that work in the "Game Design Dungeon" and remote Kick Off sites have to sign a NDA and I would assume there are legal ramifications if there is a leak.

I'd still be surprised if FIRST reacted that way. I'd think it more likely they they dealt with it on a professional level and simply removed that person from the process. After all, look what happened when their biggest event was hijacked - the way it was handled didn't involve lawyers at all. But it's all speculation. I like to think the best of everyone until proved wrong :)

[fb39ca4]

I think it's already too late. More and more people are seeing this thread and other posts discussing the deletion, and they will get curious and sooner or later, someone is going to repost the leaked information and it will blow up.

[MrRoboSteve]

I've been dealing with NDAs for 35 years. In cases like this, the NDA exists to make it clear how information about the game should be handled. An NDA signer who leaked information about the game would never be trusted again.

If a student member or mentor on our team came across undisclosed information that would effectively compromise the integrity of the game, my expectation would be that they would keep the details to themselves and let FIRST know immediately. Choosing to act on or publicize the information would reflect poorly both on the person and our team.

Finally, the OP (a mentor) should think carefully how future employers might react to his posture on this question. This post already ranks second on Bing when searching for his name.

[Tyler Olds]

I think it's already too late. More and more people are seeing this thread and other posts discussing the deletion, and they will get curious and sooner or later, someone is going to repost the leaked information and it will blow up.

Let's be realistic. More and more constitutes less than 1% of the FIRST community. Yes this might make some people curious, but with kickoff only a few days away this will blow over shortly.

You have a freedom of speech to post what you want and most likely homeland security will not come knocking at your door, but the private owners of this site have the freedom to limit the content and its users if they so choose.

[magnets]

The information was pulled from reddit.com/r/frc too.

I don't know if I saw the full extent of the "leak", which was one element of the game, but I'm not convinced it's real, and if it is, I think it was an accident.

If somebody has the leaked information and wants to share it, they WILL be able to do it. They can post it on facebook, youtube, or some other website that isn't moderated.

CD has been consistent with game leaks. There have been leaks in the past, but there have NEVER been any discussion threads about them. To remain in good standing with FIRST, CD should do the right thing, and take down the leaks.

[fb39ca4]

Let's be realistic. More and more constitutes less than 1% of the FIRST community. Yes this might make some people curious, but with kickoff only a few days away this will blow over shortly.

You have a freedom of speech to post what you want and most likely homeland security will not come knocking at your door, but the private owners of this site have the freedom to limit the content and its users if they so choose.
Not arguing that it should be posted here, just saying in the end it might not make a difference.

[magnets]

Not arguing that it should be posted here, just saying in the end it might not make a difference.

Agreed 100%. Google already has a cached copy of a certain thread in the rumor mill.......

[dradel]

What is the probability that one or more of the mods is involved with a current team?

Second if the game has in fact been leaked there is a better than average chance that the team has already started design, prototyping, and build, but how are we to know what teams have the info??

[Ekcrbe]

What is the probability that one or more of the mods is involved with a current team?

Second if the game has in fact been leaked there is a better than average chance that the team has already started design, prototyping, and build, but how are we to know what teams have the info??

This is FIRST. Should we assume the best in these people, or the worst?

[alexander.h]

What is the probability that one or more of the mods is involved with a current team?

Second if the game has in fact been leaked there is a better than average chance that the team has already started design, prototyping, and build, but how are we to know what teams have the info??

If you go to http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15 and scroll to the bottom of the page, you can see the moderators involved in the Rumor Mill. If you look at the profiles of these moderators, there are some affiliated with FRC teams and others not.

(If, of course, the posts we are talking about were in the Rumor Mill.)

Edit : After checking, out of the 11 mods, there are 7 of them which are involved with an FRC team (based on their profile).

[Ilovepineapples]

What is the probability that one or more of the mods is involved with a current team?

Second if the game has in fact been leaked there is a better than average chance that the team has already started design, prototyping, and build, but how are we to know what teams have the info??

The supposed "leak" was not of the game. Even if it (the "leak") were true, no one would know how it worked in with the game as a whole.

[Greg Needel]

Another Mod checking in....


We have always deleted and removed content which was not in the best interest for the community. Sometimes that is a person who writes hateful things and sometimes (very infrequent in the last couple years) we have deleted leaks about a game.

If you remember that FIRST is a k-12 program and most of the active members of the community are still students, we have a responsibility to remove content which is not appropriate or keeps within the mission of FIRST. There are lots of uncensored parts of the Internet that you can talk about or discuss everything and anything you want. If being totally open is your goal, I suggest that you seek out one of those outlets.

Specifically speaking to game leaks, many people view kickoff like their version of opening a present. That feeling of excitement when there is a new game challenge is something FIRST and many people in the community hold sacred (just look at the game hit threads and the excitement build up).

Additionally in terms of fairness only a fraction of teams (my guess would be less than 20%) have multiple active people on these forums and if people here got an inside advantage early how would that look?

I find it interesting that most of the people in this thread are mentors. It is our job to make sure that the current students in the program continue to have the amazing experience that many of us did when we were on teams. Yes this is extremely fun for us aswell, but the student experience should always come first in FIRST. Maybe look at things from that perspective if you are still questioning why we (the Mods) do what we do on Chiefdelphi.

[SoftwareBug2.0]

Hey now, as someone who has made a lot of posts critical of volunteers and that have been called "unGP"* I've never had a post deleted that I didn't request deleted. They don't moderate to remove a side of the story they don't want heard. They moderate to follow the rules we agreed to when we signed up.


* I contest the un GP part.

I know of a case where someone's account was deleted for making a post that was critical of a prominent volunteer's opinion and refusing to apologize. It's been a while. Maybe things have loosened up since then.

[Jay Trzaskos]

What is the probability that one or more of the mods is involved with a current team?

Second if the game has in fact been leaked there is a better than average chance that the team has already started design, prototyping, and build, but how are we to know what teams have the info??

You'd hope that, as a community that puts such a high emphasis on professionalism , the individuals who have been assigned the role of moderators will hold up to those ideals. This is a community that thrives on holding high moral standards for its members, and I'd hope that as we continue to grow, we face challenges like this as such.

Jay

[Boe]

Specifically speaking to game leaks, many people view kickoff like their version of opening a present. That feeling of excitement when there is a new game challenge is something FIRST and many people in the community hold sacred (just look at the game hit threads and the excitement build up).


I agree completely, as someone who saw the "leak" I wish that I wouldn't have seen it. If it turns out to be an actual leak it takes away from the excitement and buildup to kickoff and as such I've chosen not to share it with any of my fellow students on my team to maintain the integrity of kickoff for all of them.

[s1900ahon]

Don't be surprised. All GDC, FIRST Employees that work in the "Game Design Dungeon" and remote Kick Off sites have to sign a NDA and I would assume there are legal ramifications if there is a leak.

The last NDA I signed with FIRST did not have any legal mumbo jumbo.. and the only consequence for revealing data was that were I in violation they'd never trust me or share any data in the future, ever. While I treat all NDA's similarly, I must admit that this one has had the most attention-grabbing, emotional impact on me.

BTW, FIRST HQ does much of the field mock ups and whatnot in the basement. There are no windows to look in and badge access is required.

[dradel]

This is FIRST. Should we assume the best in these people, or the worst?


I like to think the best of people, but the reality is not all people use their moral compass!

[Ekcrbe]

I like to think the best of people, but the reality is not all people use their moral compass!

Well, then...

I have faith that at least the moderators on CD aren't the type to use this information or their power maliciously and cheat with their teams.

Also, if some unscrupulous team is trying to start working now, all that telling everyone would accomplish is to create more "cheaters." It will never get to the point where Kickoff just happens early and everyone can start then. It wouldn't level the playing field, but unbalance it even more.

[T3_1565]

I agree completely, as someone who saw the "leak" I wish that I wouldn't have seen it. If it turns out to be an actual leak it takes away from the excitement and buildup to kickoff and as such I've chosen not to share it with anyone on my team to maintain the integrity of kickoff for all of them.

Agreed. As someone who saw the leak as well. I spent most of the day yesterday trying to see if any of our teams students had seen it. Although its a big deal that this happened, if I'm the only one on my team who saw it, then I'm happy.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter what I saw as long as the kids haven't had it spoiled. (plus it didn't really spoil much in the grand scheme of things)

[Foster]

Specifically speaking to game leaks, many people view kickoff like their version of opening a present. That feeling of excitement when there is a new game challenge is something FIRST and many people in the community hold sacred (just look at the game hit threads and the excitement build up).

Exactly the reason I don't look at my charge card bills in December, it can possibly blow the surprise (well that and all those commas in the numbers)

Life has lots to do about trust. Just because you have access to CD or reddit/frc does not mean to publish the info, keep it under your hat for 4 more days.

Remember, it's a game. We are all here to play the game and learn something. We are here to inspire people. The inspired roboteer does not need the info 4 days before kickoff, they are going to have that cool idea on the the third day of the season, then build a robot and show up and play.

My thanks to all the CD Moderators for deleting and removing all the flotsam and jetsam that swirls around here. From Spam to Stupid, you have my thanks.

[dradel]

I wasn't trying to be malicious in way!! To me part of the problem is the competition aspect. Let me explain.....

I mentor to pass my knowledge of mechanics, fabrication and problem solving to those that really want to learn something. Nothing means more to me than when one of the students has that Ahh ha moment. You know when it clicks in their brain and they have an idea or an understanding of how to overcome the problem.

Now.... There are a few students and a couple mentors that are more concerned with "winning" the game rather than the importance of the students getting their heads outside the box so to speak.

I start every year off with this...

I personally don't care if we put the bot out on the field, and the moment auto starts all the magic smoke comes out of it, as long as at least one of you (the students) has an Ahh ha moment this year.

[Karthik]

To discuss the fact that the moderators feel its okay to keep information to themselves. I believe that once something is found out about the game, it should be shared between all of the teams. Everyone should have an even advantage.

Did you ever consider that the moderators might have been working with FIRST to ensure their confidential information was protected?

I was one of the first moderators on the scene when the leak appeared. We took guidance from FIRST HQ and handled the situation as quickly as possible. Whether people agree or not with the policy of deleting leaked information is a great discussion topic, however it's very important to know and understand and that FIRST wants leaks, whether credible or not, extinguished as quickly as possible and that's what the moderation team here will continue to do.

[aldaeron]

I was one of the first moderators on the scene when the leak appeared.

Great work Inspector Karthik.

Thanks to all on CD and Reddit for keeping a lid on the leaks. I am looking forward to the reveal Saturday!

And thanks to all the kickoff field builders, volunteers, suppliers and others that know something non-public about the game every year and keep it a secret.

-matto-

[Oblarg]

I'll chime in to say that I think the best policy would be "information that is public is public." Once something has been leaked, it cannot be un-leaked.

That said, it's not my decision and if the CD mods think it best to censor the material in question, so be it - I can understand and accept the reasoning behind it, even if I don't agree with it.

I've seen the "leak," and while it's enough information to get you thinking about what types of things you want to look at, it's not going to confer any major competitive advantages upon those who have seen it.

Just my two cents.

[billbo911]

CD is a forum provided by a group of people. You use it with their permission. Don't like it? Don't use it.

+1. My thoughts exactly.

[Abhishek R]

I didn't see the leak, but personally, as a student, I'm thankful towards the mods that took it down. From what I hear/can tell, it was posted in the 2015 Game Hint thread, and I was lucky not to have seen it when I went to check the latest updates on the thread. It would've taken away from the excitement of Kickoff.

Furthermore, not every team and every team member checks Chief Delphi. So while it is a form of damage control, I would much rather the mods delete it and have as few teams have seen the leak as possible. For the teams that do gain any significant advantage by having seen the leak, they would have to live with that guilt the entire season and perhaps even later.

For me, I would just take that as a challenge to build an even better robot within the legal 6 weeks starting Kickoff.

I have no doubt in my mind that the people at FIRST and the moderators of this forum have been and are acting with no malicious intent.

[*Rachelle*]

I was also one of the people that saw the "leak". And I understand why all of our posts were deleted.

However, I tend to disagree with those that think everybody knowing about the said "leaked" info would take away from the the feeling of "opening a Christmas present" or (more importantly) the information giving an unfair advantage. The information was just (trying to be vague) a description. Anyways, once info is on the internet it can never be fully deleted. With the information found, it would not have helped get a four day head start as we still don't know the rules to the game are or what we are supposed to do with the said ______. With the info I cannot begin designing a robot, and I can still only speculate what exactly the game will be. Truthfully, if a person started a design it could be rendered useless. I mean, with some change coming, there could be rule coming out that is different than any of us have experienced. A person couldn't design a robot because they don't know if springs are allowed, or if something that is usually illegal, is legal this year.

I also support the moderators, I don't think their ethics were wrong or that they were trying for an unfair advantage (read above). They were doing their jobs and what had been asked of them. With all this said please keep Gracious Professionalism in mind and think before you post aggressive/attacking words (while some of you may not think they are, the connotation a person takes from your words may be seen as aggressive or offensive.)

[Madison]

Someone made a mistake on the internet and we, as a community, had the rare opportunity to help them correct their mistake and minimize the potential negative consequences. We should be proud of that since it's something that happens so rarely and is something that the rest of internet is often loathe to do.

Some of the posts in this thread make me curious how many of CD's current users know who the moderators are. We haven't added any moderators to the team in a long time and there are many of them who are no longer active on the boards or in FIRST, but they're all good, honest people. The notion that we'd censor information for our own gain is hard for me to wrap my head around, but maybe I'd feel differently if the rest were people I didn't know at all.

[Libby K]

Did you ever consider that the moderators might have been working with FIRST to ensure their confidential information was protected?

I was one of the first moderators on the scene when the leak appeared. We took guidance from FIRST HQ and handled the situation as quickly as possible. Whether people agree or not with the policy of deleting leaked information is a great discussion topic, however it's very important to know and understand and that FIRST wants leaks, whether credible or not, extinguished as quickly as possible and that's what the moderation team here will continue to do.

This is the important thing here. We can all talk back and forth about how we would rather personally handle it, but it's being handled right now well within the terms of ChiefDelphi use, as well as with what HQ wants.

FIRST currently advocates for Chief as an unofficial discussion place - not listening to their requests might mean we don't get to maintain that positive relationship. I'd much rather see FIRST channeling people towards CD than ignoring its existence because of some posters' behavior.

Someone made a mistake on the internet and we, as a community, had the rare opportunity to help them correct their mistake and minimize the potential negative consequences. We should be proud of that since it's something that happens so rarely and is something that the rest of internet is often loathe to do.

Some of the posts in this thread make me curious how many of CD's current users know who the moderators are. We haven't added any moderators to the team in a long time and there are many of them who are no longer active on the boards or in FIRST, but they're all good, honest people. The notion that we'd censor information for our own gain is hard for me to wrap my head around, but maybe I'd feel differently if the rest were people I didn't know at all.

I had a headache over this one too, Madison. Anyone who knows even a few of these moderators personally should be able to understand the caliber of person that they are. Anything they do in their position as moderator is for the general health & welfare of the forum, not for their personal gain. Their maturity in that respect is exactly why they're mods, and I feel badly that they're being hung out to dry right now.

While this is a good philosophical discussion to have (as long as it stays respectful), I think there are plenty of other hints/information to speculate from, and quite a few other tasks to get done pre-kickoff than worry about your 'rights' as a voluntary user of ChiefDelphi.

[IronicDeadBird]

Wow...
With a side of wow.
Just got out after a day working with children at a sports camp and you know cheating there, kinda frowned upon. I can handle one kid not sitting down when they get tagged in dodge ball, but an unknown number of people seeing something that could effect gameplay? How do you even start to deal with that... Robot in 3 days is impressive but the response time on here was amazing. My shout out goes to the moderators for acting in such a prompt way. Now the question is how do I do probe for leaks on the team without causing a curious student to go digging up some forbidden fruit.
Also yeah totally pretty sure I signed an agreement to use this and it says somewhere mods can moderate.

[Bochek]

Hi everyone,

I've been driving from Montreal back to Ontario for the last 7 hours or so, I've been reading all the responses but have been unable to reply.

I would like to preface this post by making it clear that it was not my intent to point fingers in my original post.

While I was, and still am upset by the moderators choice to delete posts of this nature. I understand that it is well within the forum rules to do so. I was hopeful that the original post would start a discussion on the ethics of deleting these posts. While it is my belief that information such as this should be shared amongst the masses, I understand many people don't feel the same way I do.

I'm going to touch on a couple of points brought up in this thread:

Some of the posts in this thread make me curious how many of CD's current users know who the moderators are.

Madison, I couldn't agree more. I've been a member for nearly 8 years this is only the 2nd time I have ever had any interaction with a moderator.

Did you ever consider that the moderators might have been working with FIRST to ensure their confidential information was protected?

Karthik, sure I did. I also had lots of other ideas for motive to delete the posts. Take a second to look at this from my end. My posts just started to disappear. No PM's or other forms of communication where left for me with any reason as to why they where being deleted.

Honestly, my first through was that whoever made the mistake of leaking the information in the first place was probably a moderator on CD, perhaps the Reddit FRC community as well and they might be trying to cover their mistake by deleting all posts related to the topic.


Finally, I would like to add that while I did choose to share this information with my team. It really does provide no advantage.

*Rachelle* summed it up perfectly.

With the information found, it would not have helped get a four day head start as we still don't know the rules to the game are or what we are supposed to do with the said ______. With the info I cannot begin designing a robot, and I can still only speculate what exactly the game will be.

- Bochek

[Xax]

Although the moderators were able to quickly remove the leak it is still out there, it took me less than 30 minutes of [edit: not going to allow hints or anything hinty on how to find it --Billfred] to find it. Just like I tell my students, once it's on the internet you can't get it back. While I agree that it is certainly well within the moderators' rights to remove the information from CD they can only do so much due to the nature of the internet. Regardless, if someone wanted to find the information bad enough it is there to be found.

I'm not trying to encourage people to go looking for it, I'm just saying the the moderators can't make all of the problems disappear (though they are awesome people).

[Steven Smith]

There is a lot of overlap between team mentors, FIRST volunteers, forum moderators, etc...

There is a huge amount of work to get done before kickoff, that requires a rather large group of people to sign NDAs and commit to keeping quiet. Part of the reason is to ensure the integrity of the game, and the other part is because it frankly ruins the fun for anyone who finds leaked information. I think it is a testament to the FIRST community that this is able to happen every year with the only known leaks being pure accident or not benefiting the most competitive teams.

Finding this information out a few days before kickoff is immaterial. There are plenty of other ways to cheat at FIRST, but at the end of the day, the best teams/mentors don't cheat because the advantage is minimal and the risk to their reputation far outweighs any "benefit". Personally, I'd hate to act on some leaked information to gain a benefit, because if we did place well, I'd always wonder if we deserved it.

I believe the moderating community was acting out of respect for the hundreds/thousands of CD readers that have the technical ability to hunt down the leak, but choose not to out of respect for the game. It wasn't to protect any personal advantage, or anything else. If you care about FIRST, I'd recommend you ignore it as well until Saturday. If you've seen it, you have a decision to make. Do you act on the information, and cheat... or not? It doesn't matter how many people have seen it, if you find information out before the game and start designing around it, you are cheating. We (FIRSTers) manage to avoid chances to cheat such as designing robot parts before kickoff, working past bag and tag, managing conflicts of interest between refs/judges at events and the teams they are associated with, etc. I don't see how this is any different.

[Billfred]

I'm going to throw my hat in here blind, as I have made a few deletions and edits to remove leaked information. (A bit of background: As the Kickoff Coordinator for South Carolina this year, I've signed a non-disclosure agreement with FIRST HQ and have seen the kits of parts while moving them into storage. But since I don't need to know what the field looks like, I've seen neither drawings nor components of that.)

Let's quote the Administration Manual (http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Game_and_Season__Info/2015/FIRST-FRC-2015-AdminManual-20141219.pdf) on Gracious Professionalism:

Gracious folks respect others and let that respect show in their actions.

Now, I've long advocated that GP is best used as an internal barometer...but given that FIRST takes the secrecy of the game before Kickoff seriously enough to make anyone that might get a little whiff of something sign a non-disclosure agreement, I find it very hard to believe that an intentional leaker is showing respect for FIRST's position on the matter. I don't think we're being too draconian by upholding their desire to keep the game a secret until such time that they choose to release information themselves.

---------------------------------

There's an old Woodie anecdote where a mentor asked him why we only get six weeks--the response was something along the lines of "because we like you and care about your health". Our local Kickoff received the kits the week before Christmas, and while I didn't open any packages I saw enough things to spend a week and a half turning around in my head "What is FIRST going to do with [bleep] and [bleep]?" Having spent eleven seasons on the outside and now having a little taste of the inside: enjoy life on the outside while you can!

[wajirock]

I for one generally do not like leaks. To me, leaks are like movie spoilers, the movie is not as exciting if you heard the spoiler. Kick Off is one of the most exciting events of the year for most people. And again, if someone learns about the leak, Kick Off may be less exciting for them.

[asid61]

Doesn't deleting something in the Game Hint thread pretty much just verify it? If it's left there, then everybody just assumes that it's just a hypothesis. It would have to be one heck of a post to be deemed realiable enough to delete.
I did not see the so-called leak (or at least I think I didn't), but I hope that this was considered.

[magnets]

Doesn't deleting something in the Game Hint thread pretty much just verify it? If it's left there, then everybody just assumes that it's just a hypothesis. It would have to be one heck of a post to be deemed realiable enough to delete.
I did not see the so-called leak (or at least I think I didn't), but I hope that this was considered.

The leak was real. If you saw it, you could confirm it on an outside website, and FIRST HQ asked for it to be taken down from Chief Delphi. The FRC reddit people did the same thing.

[Chris Fultz]

Finally, I would like to add that while I did choose to share this information with my team.
- Bochek

That, my friend, is quite disappointing.

[matthewdenny]

That, my friend, is quite disappointing.


While I haven't seen the leak, I understand it to not give significant advantage to those that did.

The OP didn't hack into a computer network or break in to a building in NH, or any unethical act to come across the information.

As the mentor of his team he has the responsibility to decide what to share with his team. It isn't up to us to decide what is GP for others. It is a standard that in gray areas is up to each to hold themselves to that standard.

[wilsonmw04]

While I haven't seen the leak, I understand it to not give significant advantage to those that did.

The OP didn't hack into a computer network or break in to a building in NH, or any unethical act to come across the information.

As the mentor of his team he has the responsibility to decide what to share with his team. It isn't up to us to decide what is GP for others. It is a standard that in gray areas is up to each to hold themselves to that standard.

You are telling a Champion Woodie Flowers winner what GP is? I think that Mr. Fultz is well aware what GP and FIRST is about. Matt, please back away slowly and reevaluate your response.

[asid61]

You are telling a Champion Woodie Flowers winner what GP is? I think that Mr. Fultz is well aware what GP and FIRST is about. Matt, please back away slowing and reevaluate your response.

While I do understand your stance on this (and Mr. Fultz's), I can see where Matt is coming from as well. Just because he didn't win an award doesn't mean he's wrong to have an opinon.

[IronicDeadBird]

My two cents this thread should be locked or something. I think those of us who have looked into it are aware of the situation and the emotions, opinions, and actions surrounding this event are not going to create anything positive. People are going to see this and learn what they want to learn from it...

Well toss now I sound like a back seat moderator, considering I already shot myself in the foot by backseat moding, I think I will ratchet up the risky bidniss and say from the looks of it I imagine there is at least one moderator out there willing to take a few questions in there private messages. I'm also going to go super risky and play 21 and hit on 16's...

[matthewdenny]

You are telling a Champion Woodie Flowers winner what GP is? I think that Mr. Fultz is well aware what GP and FIRST is about. Matt, please back away slowing and reevaluate your response.


I have subscribed to the philosophy that GP is an inward reflection and not a standard you can apply to others, and this has served me well and seems to be in most cases a good rule.

It is however possible that Mr. Fultz is one of the few people that can claim to do so. In that situation, mea culpa.

[Tungrus]

I have not seen the "leak", but his years game is already become interesting! Now I am anxiously waiting for kick-off than I felt yesterday!

[Oblarg]

You are telling a Champion Woodie Flowers winner what GP is? I think that Mr. Fultz is well aware what GP and FIRST is about. Matt, please back away slowing and reevaluate your response.

I don't see anything wrong with the response. There is certainly room for reasonable people to disagree on the proper course of action when encountering leaked information. Moreover, I don't see anything in that post telling Mr. Fultz what GP is - rather, he quite reasonably pointed out that this is a non-trivial situation and we shouldn't condemn others simply for not agreeing with us.

And, really, I think it's unwise to perpetuate a culture where we treat certain people's opinions as word of god. There is nothing innately wrong with disagreeing with a Champion Woodie Flowers winner, and I think telling people that they should back away from entirely reasonable posts, simply because they express disagreement with people whom the community holds in high esteem, is not an atmosphere conducive to healthy discussion.

[DonRotolo]

So "leak" means a water game is confirmed? :confused:

Sigh. I'll wait for Saturday.

[wilsonmw04]

I don't see anything wrong with the response. There is certainly room for reasonable people to disagree on the proper course of action when encountering leaked information. Moreover, I don't see anything in that post telling Mr. Fultz what GP is - rather, he quite reasonably pointed out that this is a non-trivial situation and we shouldn't condemn others simply for not agreeing with us.

And, really, I think it's unwise to perpetuate a culture where we treat certain people's opinions as word of god. There is nothing innately wrong with disagreeing with a Champion Woodie Flowers winner, and I think telling people that they should back away from entirely reasonable posts, simply because they express disagreement with people whom the community holds in high esteem, is not an atmosphere conducive to healthy discussion.

I would agree to everything you said except for the word "reasonable." How is spreading a "leak" or what I really think is actively mined information from AndyMark that was never intended to be released to the public, reasonable? He is giving his team an advantage that others don't have. Excuse me if I don't think if that's "reasonable."

[Abhishek R]

You are telling a Champion Woodie Flowers winner what GP is? I think that Mr. Fultz is well aware what GP and FIRST is about. Matt, please back away slowly and reevaluate your response.

I don't think that was necessary. Every person is entitled to an opinion, and he wasn't slandering anyone. One of the most significant aspects of CD is that it has always sparked some good discussion (albeit heated at times), and this kind of post discourages members of our very own FRC community from being able to voice their thoughts.

[mrnoble]

So "leak" means a water game is confirmed? :

My team's pre-season projects have all included scuba gear. I feel prepared!

[Oblarg]

I would agree to everything you said except for the word "reasonable." How is spreading a "leak" or what I really think is actively mined information from AndyMark that was never intended to be released to the public, reasonable? He is giving his team an advantage that others don't have. Excuse me if I don't think if that's "reasonable."

Let's set aside the "actively mined information" bit, since no one here (afaik) has provided any evidence to that effect (and moreover I don't think it's really relevant even if it is true).

Leaked information, once it has been put on the internet, is public domain. Once something is out there, it is out there - you can never take it back. It is an entirely reasonable stance that, sometimes, the best policy in those cases is to keep the information public rather than the contrary. Whether that is the case here is up for debate - I can see legitimate points on both sides.

There is room for reasonable people to disagree about this topic. I think it's good to respect that.

[cgmv123]

what I really think is actively mined information from AndyMark that was never intended to be released to the public, reasonable? "

Let's set aside the "actively mined information" bit, since no one here (afaik) has provided any evidence to that effect.

There was no "mining" of information. For a period of time yesterday, anyone could have gone to the AndyMark website, clicked a link, and clicked a subsequent link which contained the information in question.

[mrnoble]

*putting my fingers in my ears now*

[wilsonmw04]

Let's set aside the "actively mined information" bit, since no one here (afaik) has provided any evidence to that effect.

Leaked information, once it has been put on the internet, is public domain. Once something is out there, it is out there - you can never take it back. It is an entirely reasonable stance that, sometimes, the best policy in those cases is to keep the information public rather than the contrary. Whether that is the case here is up for debate - I can see legitimate points on both sides.

There is room for reasonable people to disagree about this topic. I think it's good to respect that.

Let me tell you what I would have done if I happened to "stumble" upon such information: I would have contacted FIRST and AndyMark immediately. I would have kept the info to myself until I heard back from them. I would not have posted it to any other site or talked to anyone else about it. I know, I should not use my common sense when dealing with anyone else, but I just can't help it. I can't see ANY legitimate reason to spread info that i KNOW I shouldn't have. What agenda is served by spreading this information when know it shouldn't be in the public domain? If you buy into the logic that anything put on the internet is fair game, the world becomes a VERY scary place.

[Oblarg]

Let me tell you what I would have done if I happened to "stumble" upon such information: I would have contacted FIRST and AndyMark immediately. I would have kept the info to myself until I heard back from them. I would not have posted it to any other site or talked to anyone else about it. I know, I should not use my common sense when dealing with anyone else, but I just can't help it. I can't see ANY legitimate reason to spread info that i KNOW I shouldn't have.

This is fine, and is a perfectly legitimate and well-founded view. It is not the only legitimate view. This is a complicated issue, and attempts to paint it as black-and-white, I think, do everyone involved in the discussion a disservice.

What agenda is served by spreading this information when know it shouldn't be in the public domain?

To some sensibilities, fairness. People/teams that have seen it are not going to un-see it. Attempts to contain leaks can certainly, in some situations, be less-ideal solutions than everyone knowing what was leaked. Whether it "should" be in the public domain or not is, to an extent, immaterial - it is in the public domain, and that's not something that can necessarily be undone.

If you buy into the logic that anything put on the internet is fair game, the world becomes a VERY scary place.

Appeal to consequences of a belief is a fallacy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences)

[wilsonmw04]

There was no "mining" of information. For a period of time yesterday, anyone could have gone to the AndyMark website, clicked a link, and clicked a subsequent link which contained the information in question.

If that is true, then I wonder how many folks "stumbled" upon this information? How many of those folks contacted FIRST or AM. How many of those folks told anyone else, or only their teams or folks they know? Those that spread information they knew should not have been public should be ashamed of themselves. I will again ask, what good was there in spreading this mistake to a larger population? None.

[dellagd]

Let me tell you what I would have done if I happened to "stumble" upon such information: I would have contacted FIRST and AndyMark immediately. I would have kept the info to myself until I heard back from them. I would not have posted it to any other site or talked to anyone else about it. I know, I should not use my common sense when dealing with anyone else, but I just can't help it. I can't see ANY legitimate reason to spread info that i KNOW I shouldn't have. What agenda is served by spreading this information when know it shouldn't be in the public domain? If you buy into the logic that anything put on the internet is fair game, the world becomes a VERY scary place.

FYI the person who originally leaked the information (that was his first post ever) is not the same person referenced on the previous page. The person in question here was simply relaying information already out in public, which is a completely different matter entirely from leaking it originally.

[MrBasse]

Let me tell you what I would have done if I happened to "stumble" upon such information: I would have contacted FIRST and AndyMark immediately. I would have kept the info to myself until I heard back from them. I would not have posted it to any other site or talked to anyone else about it. I know, I should not use my common sense when dealing with anyone else, but I just can't help it. I can't see ANY legitimate reason to spread info that i KNOW I shouldn't have. What agenda is served by spreading this information when know it shouldn't be in the public domain? If you buy into the logic that anything put on the internet is fair game, the world becomes a VERY scary place.

But the world is a very scary place. That is the unfortunate truth of things.

Maybe someone saw something on a website relevant to the game and thought "wow, change really is coming. I want to discuss this thing I found with the community."

Not everything is negative just because some people see it that way. Even if you feel that this is the worst thing someone can do; try to remember that this is a chance to measure your character, not someone else's.

You seem to be doing that, but at the same time you ask what good does it do to spread the information. I'll just ask, what good does it do to get so worked up over something you have no control over? Can you imagine if this thread never existed? Most of us would have never even known that anything happened.

[wilsonmw04]

Appeal to consequences of a belief is a fallacy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences)


Logic, as a defense to a bad act, is not a defense at all. Your "logic" would make all ill gotten information on the web fair game no matter how much damage it would do to someone or organization. EX: the recent Sony leaks or the release of any personal information on the interwebs be in stolen or not.

[Oblarg]

Logic, as a defense to a bad act, is not a defense at all.

You are presupposing that your view on the badness of the act in question is the correct one on a topic where that is very far from clear. Logic is useful precisely in determining whether or not an act is bad - what you've said is akin to dismissing the use of logic to resolve the trolley problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem).

Your "logic" would make all ill gotten information on the web fair game no matter how much damage it would do to someone or organization. EX: the recent Sony leaks or the release of any personal information on the interwebs be in stolen or not.

If you assume that every claim I make is intended as some sort of fundamental law and not as a heuristic which may or may not be useful in the current situation, then maybe so.

That's not how I intend the things I say to be taken, though. It is a monstrous leap from what I said to "all information ever put on the internet should be publicized as much as possible in all circumstances." I try to put enough caveats in my claims to make this clear - I'm sorry if I haven't done a good enough job of it.

[Billfred]

Doesn't deleting something in the Game Hint thread pretty much just verify it? If it's left there, then everybody just assumes that it's just a hypothesis. It would have to be one heck of a post to be deemed realiable enough to delete.
I did not see the so-called leak (or at least I think I didn't), but I hope that this was considered.

In a perfect world, people wouldn't spread information FIRST didn't want out there and would report the leak to the proper people. Had I found the leak firsthand, there are about a half-dozen employees at the company I could start Facebook messaging within seconds. Even if I didn't know them personally, the main phone number is not hard to come by.

Alas, we don't live in a perfect world and some people think spreading like this is a fun way to score imaginary internet cool points. Once it's out there, all us moderators can do is stop the bleeding. Yes, it means the people that first saw the thread are now in on the presumed scoop and can do as they please, but it does prevent that from spreading further on the venues we control.

[mrnoble]

I am conflicted about information that is "out there". Some of it (the Pentagon Papers, for example) hurt someone but accomplished a major public good, and I am glad I read them. Salacious reports on celebrities love lives and costume changes do nothing good, I think, and I don't seek them out. Wikileaks sits somewhere in between, and I'm not sure what to think about the public value.

In this case, I don't know that any greater good is being accomplished, but neither do I think there is a lot of malice and poor sportsmanship being exhibited. We've got three more days to wait patiently, and that is what I intend to do.

[wilsonmw04]

FYI the person who originally leaked the information (that was his first post ever) is not the same person referenced on the previous page. The person in question here was simply relaying information already out in public, which is a completely different matter entirely from leaking it originally.

No, no it's not. Relaying information you know should not be pubic makes you just as culpable as the person who first found the information. The web allows you to do a lot of things you would not do normally. So how would it be different from a student who was given a test key from someone else and then posted it online? nothing. Everyone involved is guilty. We as community need to have certain absolutes. Disseminating leaks should not be tolerated by this community no matter how many degrees of separation there is from the original leak there is.

I know, I am not supposed to put my personal values on other people, but I believe there are certain lines that should never be crossed. They were crossed this preseason.

[Oblarg]

No, no it's not. Relaying information you know should not be pubic makes you just as culpable as the person who first found the information.

This seems like an absolute claim that gives no room for adjustment based on the nature of the information and the context. Whether or not perpetuating information that "should not have been public" is a good or a bad thing, I think, depends critically on these things. There is no moral absolute here.

[Billfred]

This is fine, and is a perfectly legitimate and well-founded view. It is not the only legitimate view. This is a complicated issue, and attempts to paint it as black-and-white, I think, do everyone involved in the discussion a disservice.

To some sensibilities, fairness. People/teams that have seen it are not going to un-see it. Attempts to contain leaks can certainly, in some situations, be less-ideal solutions than everyone knowing what was leaked. Whether it "should" be in the public domain or not is, to an extent, immaterial - it is in the public domain, and that's not something that can necessarily be undone.

I missed this in my first reply, so let's talk about this here.

I follow the auto industry a good bit, just the nature of my day job. When a new model is coming out, it's almost always the case that some publication leaks it out. Not even an accident, sometimes they're flaunting it or sometimes their print magazine hits the newsstands a smidgen early. In that case, the media embargo is fast crumbling and the auto makers will often just open up the flood gates with more information.

However, this is FIRST. Anyone that's done this dance, and any reasonable person that hadn't, would tell you that FIRST does not want Kickoff information published before Kickoff! Errors will happen, and it is on all of us who may see such errors to do the right thing. I fail to see how anyone can construe that the responsible thing to do here to do anything other than report it to the appropriate people with the company and then clam up until Kickoff to maintain alignment with FIRST's desired outcome as closely as possible.

[Orthofort]

No, no it's not. Relaying information you know should not be pubic makes you just as culpable as the person who first found the information. The web allows you to do a lot of things you would not do normally. So how would it be different from a student who was given a test key from someone else and then posted it online? nothing. Everyone involved is guilty. We as community need to have certain absolutes. Disseminating leaks should not be tolerated by this community no matter how many degrees of separation there is from the original leak there is.

I know, I am not supposed to put my personal values on other people, but I believe there are certain lines that should never be crossed. They were crossed this preseason.

Seeing as someone else mentioned the original poster of the leak was new at it was his/her first post, it's entirely possible that they didn't know or think that it was a leak. They could have been new to FIRST and possibly thought that it was another hint.

I'm not saying that they did; I nor anyone else could know what they were thinking. But it's something you have to consider.

[asid61]

No, no it's not. Relaying information you know should not be pubic makes you just as culpable as the person who first found the information. The web allows you to do a lot of things you would not do normally. So how would it be different from a student who was given a test key from someone else and then posted it online? nothing. Everyone involved is guilty. We as community need to have certain absolutes. Disseminating leaks should not be tolerated by this community no matter how many degrees of separation there is from the original leak there is.

I know, I am not supposed to put my personal values on other people, but I believe there are certain lines that should never be crossed. They were crossed this preseason.

I was initially disagreeing with you, but I find that analogy to be pretty accurate. The only difference is that FRC is essentially "graded on a curve", so it's actually more fair to release it to everyone rather than just keep it to oneself and thereby break the curve.
That being said, I do agree with you that it should not have been released. The optimal course of action would have been to keep silent (even from one's own team) until kickoff, and report to FIRST immediately. Obviously it is impossible to stop oneself from thinking about it, but in ultimately it makes very little difference if one person is given a small hint and a few days to think about it beforehand.

[Laaba 80]

Those that spread information they knew should not have been public should be ashamed of themselves.

If you are referring to those who continued to post the "leak" after they were requested not to, than I will agree with you. That is disrespectful.

If you are referring to those who originally found the "leak", I disagree with you. Whoever found the "leak" did not know if it was legitimate or not. Just look at all the "Game Hint?" threads that appear each year, after something Dave said, Frank wrote, or a gut feeling Bob has. It's exciting, especially for younger students, to think they have information to share with the community. The only difference between this and the many "Game Hint?" threads is this may have been real.

I think it may be best for this discussion to be put on pause until after kickoff. I think any discussion will be difficult until everyone is able to be fully informed on the situation.

[IronicDeadBird]

Seeing as someone else mentioned the original poster of the leak was new at it was his/her first post, it's entirely possible that they didn't know or think that it was a leak. They could have been new to FIRST and possibly thought that it was another hint.

I'm not saying that they did; I nor anyone else could know what they were thinking. But it's something you have to consider.

Oh god that coupled with this degree of heated debate scary thought. I would hate my first post to bring this much flak in from an honest mistake. To sit down at a table full of wise men and then first words out of your mouth to start a fire storm...
Its not that you aren't welcome its that you got off on the wrong foot and I truly hope none of the strong opinions on this thread turn students away from this wonderful resource just because they feel like they will draw heat for making a mistake.

[dellagd]

No, no it's not. Relaying information you know should not be pubic makes you just as culpable as the person who first found the information. The web allows you to do a lot of things you would not do normally. So how would it be different from a student who was given a test key from someone else and then posted it online? nothing. Everyone involved is guilty. We as community need to have certain absolutes. Disseminating leaks should not be tolerated by this community no matter how many degrees of separation there is from the original leak there is.

I know, I am not supposed to put my personal values on other people, but I believe there are certain lines that should never be crossed. They were crossed this preseason.

Just to clarify I wasn't agreeing with either and tbh I wish that this whole situation never happened. I only wanted to set some facts straight as there is definitely a different thought process that occurs in posting the info originally and in wanting something already told to some to remain public. Whether either is right is, as with all moral debates, an opinion. People aren't going to agree (and shouldn't expect too :D )

[alopex_rex]

I would just like to say, thank you to the moderators who removed the leaked information. I'm not an active poster on Chief Delphi, but lately I've been periodically browsing through the game hint discussion thread, to see what ideas people are throwing around. Kickoff is very exciting for me, and the complete lack of knowledge is part of that. If by chance I had happened to see the leaked info, it would have hurt that experience irreparably.

I think the people who are arguing that "once it's public, it's public" and that it's futile to try to suppress it are missing the point: many people don't want to see leaked information. And when I'm on a site like Chief Delphi, I assume that I won't see that kind of information. If an episode of a TV show I like is leaked, I know that I can easily find the leak if I look for it. But I also trust that the sites I frequent will not link to that information, not because they believe they can suppress or un-leak it, but for the sake of visitors who don't want to see leaked information. We can and should be able to have the same experience that we would if nothing had leaked at all, and seeing the leaked information splattered everywhere would ruin that. I expect, as a matter of course, for a massively-influential, semi-official site, such as Chief Delphi, to have a policy of not showing any leaks or linking to them. I'm glad to see that the moderators here live up to that standard and appreciate the responsibility that comes with moderating such a prominent site.

[Loxmyth]

The original poster of the leak mentioned in the post that he/she noticed something. Then asked if it's ever been done like that before. It was a very innocent post of information and a question. The poster DID NOT post anything to the likes of calling it a leak, hidden information, or the likes.

Knowing the leaked information, no one could figure much out. It would only stir up the imagination more. There is no way that anything major about the game could be figured out to give anyone an advantage.

Deleting the threads was the choice of the moderators/administrators, I may not agree for circumstantial reasons, but I respect it. Just because it was deleted, does not mean that it was posted as a "HEY ALL HERE'S A LEAK" thread.

This thread has turned very sour and those of you who are adults should be ashamed about the uneducated judgements you are dishing out publically. Students frequent here and you're supposed set an example. If you want to bicker, do it in a PM, email, or phone conversation. I hope this thread gets deleted, it has gone down the wrong road and is a very poor example of the values of FIRST.

[AlexanderTheOK]

This point was mentioned early in the discussion but I believe that it has been nearly forgotten amidst debate on the morality of spreading leaks. While this is an important discussion to have in case of future, more serious leaks, I believe there is something more pertinent and, most importantly, positive about this situation.

That is that the information that was leaked, whether it was real or fake, offers little to no considerable advantage to anyone. I saw it and know quite a few people who have also seen it. I spent possibly a minute looking it over, and then went back to finishing my college applications. None of the people I know have put more thought into it than they have into actual game hints.

I don't seriously believe anyone is going to spend the coming of a new year in the shop prototyping and designing off of incomplete information that may mean different things based on the actual game, and may or may not be true.

My 2c.

[hzheng_449]

Just as an observation:

I noticed in this thread that there really seem to be two different perceptions of FIRST as an organization.

On one end there is a "the small town" or "small company" perception of FIRST, where people feel a real give and take with FIRST HQ and see FIRST HQ in a very personal light.

On the other end there is a "big city view" or "corporate" of FIRST. The relationship with FIRST is much less personal. This view sees FIRST HQ as the organization that releases the game rules, runs worlds, and that's about it.

I wonder where the position on this spectrum of an "average team" is and where it will shift as FIRST continues to grow.

Again, this is pretty irrelevant to the main topic of the thread (though so is much of the debate on this thread anyways). It's just something I noticed, and I was wondering if anyone else noticed it as well.

[Abhishek R]

Oh god that coupled with this degree of heated debate scary thought. I would hate my first post to bring this much flak in from an honest mistake. To sit down at a table full of wise men and then first words out of your mouth to start a fire storm...
Its not that you aren't welcome its that you got off on the wrong foot and I truly hope none of the strong opinions on this thread turn students away from this wonderful resource just because they feel like they will draw heat for making a mistake.

Agreed. I feel sorry for the poster, who is now being scrutinized by, to quote another post I saw earlier
Even as a four year senior on my team I am still hesitant to answer technical questions on this site, to avoid being torn apart by some 10+ year FRC mentor with 10 green dots and 1,000+ comments. Unfortunately, I have learned that some mentors on this site have no qualms about being the fourth person to pile on to a new member's "dumb" question with a page long response about how it was a stupid post.

We don't know what they were thinking, it is entirely possible there was no ill intent behind the post, and just something someone found and wanted to share with the community. Consider this: if they really wanted to get an advantage, why would they even post it rather than keeping it to themselves?

This thread wasn't even originally about the poster/leak themselves, it was about the removal of the posts by the moderators. I don't understand exactly how this became a trial by jury. I think it's in everyone's best interest to forget this, let the mods handle it, and enjoy our few remaining days until Kickoff.

EDIT: I was informed that the leak was posted to social media as well, where it could really spread like wildfire, as opposed to somewhere like CD where everyone has access and is able to discuss things. My opinion has definitely changed a bit...

[IronicDeadBird]

The original poster of the leak mentioned in the post that he/she noticed something. Then asked if it's ever been done like that before. It was a very innocent post of information and a question. The poster DID NOT post anything to the likes of calling it a leak, hidden information, or the likes.

This thread has turned very sour and those of you who are adults should be ashamed about the uneducated judgements you are dishing out publically. Students frequent here and you're supposed set an example. If you want to bicker, do it in a PM, email, or phone conversation. I hope this thread gets deleted, it has gone down the wrong road and is a very poor example of the values of FIRST.

Quoted for all the truths

Well this is concerning now that it seems to be stated that someone who wanted to participate in the learning process of FIRST robotics just brought moms home made ribs to the vegan picnic. As mentors and coaches we have a major impact on those who we teach and we need to remember that our actions in the pit, on the internet, or even in a classroom all have weight. As someone who has worked summer camps I stand behind all my actions because they are what I believe in. That is not to say I am right all the time, that is to say I am passionate about what I believe in. Yet those emotions and opinions I am passionate are not allowed to stop kids who signed up for a sports camp to have fun. The same goes as a mentor for robotics.
I am allowed to have opinions, and thoughts, and beliefs. But not for a single second would I want those emotions to stop someone from learning because that is selfish.

I don't care if none of that makes sense at this point cause in all honesty I am getting upset and I need to step back.
In the end the most important point I want to get through is that those aren't just random pixels on your screen forming words. Those are the thoughts and opinions of another human being, and they should be respect, regardless of failure or success human beings deserve respect.

[Doug G]

I feel bad this happen, but it happen. CD mods did the right thing, but I think they are fighting a losing battle.

I wouldn't be surprised if FIRST announces something about it soon. It didn't take long for an old hack like myself to figure it out (but have told no one). I can only assume it is spreading through back channels amongst the teams that choose to keep themselves informed. So now it is an advantage for those teams. And those that aren't as informed will be even more at a disadvantage. Just what we need now, more inequity.

And if you don't think it is an advantage, I know many FIRSTers that don't have school this week that would love to CAD up some ideas.

[JohnSchneider]

Agreed. I feel sorry for the poster, who is now being scrutinized by, to quote another post I saw earlier, "veteran adult mentors with years of experience and 10 green bars next to their name." We don't know what they were thinking, it is entirely possible there was no ill intent behind the post, and just something someone found and wanted to share with the community. Consider this: if they really wanted to get an advantage, why would they even post it rather than keeping it to themselves?

This thread wasn't even originally about the poster/leak themselves, it was about the removal of the posts by the moderators. I don't understand exactly how this became a trial by jury. I think it's in everyone's best interest to forget this, let the mods handle it, and enjoy our few remaining days until Kickoff.

Delphi always bubbles down to "trial by jury". You have a forum full of people who lead teams who have differing opinions, and they're all trying to be "more-GP" than each other.

[Karthik]

At this point what I find most disappointing that individuals and teams have taken to other public mediums of communication in an effort to further spread this leak. I understand that people have different ideas when it comes to the free flow of information, and everyone absolutely has the right to say what they want via non-moderated forms of communication, but I guess I'm just disappointed the members of this community would ignore FIRST's wishes to keep their confidential information private. I know that this was inevitable, nevertheless it's still disappointing.

[hzheng_449]

I guess I'm just disappointed the members of this community would ignore FIRST's wishes to keep their confidential information private.

I think what it boils down to is that people reposting the leak don't view the information as "their [FIRST's]" information anymore.

I'm not commenting on whether that viewpoint is wrong/right, but it certainly is a understandable opinion IMHO.

[Karthik]

I think what it boils down to is that people reposting the leak don't view the information as "their [FIRST's]" information anymore.

I'm not commenting on whether that viewpoint is wrong/right, but it certainly is a understandable opinion IMHO.

Yup. It's a viewpoint I disagree with, but I can understand how a reasonable person would take that stance.

[jman4747]

On the subject of people knowingly doing anything wrong with the information, we do all need to remember that FIRST is full of people which means they won't all view the core values the same or even care about them at all. Being on a FIRST team does not mean someone will be, or even want to be an upstanding exsemplery human just as much as it means not being on a team doesn't mean someone won't display what we call GP.

[magnets]

The original post revealing the leak was not trying to spread a leak. The guy was from a new team, had one post, and was asking what it meant.

I've removed a few words, but here's what he said:

On [website], there is one object labeled [something]. It has the same description as [something else], but just [some picture] as a picture. Have they done this in the past? Could this mean we will have [something that the leak doesn't mean]?

Imagine you were this person, and all these people were arguing if you were GP or not. You probably wouldn't be feeling so great right now. Please be considerate, and don't accuse people without knowing the full story. A few unfortunate accidents were made yesterday, and we should try to move past them and get on to kickoff.

[wilsonmw04]

I just want to be clear, I am not upset with "the dude" who originally posted on CD. I am throughly disappointed in certain members of this community who then took that info and ran with by posting it on multiple social media outlets. They knew better and did it anyway.

[Paul Copioli]

I have been watching this thread and while everyone has their opinion I guess I should share mine.

For those of you think it is "fair game" to spread confidential information once it is public, I say this: I will never, ever consider hiring you to work for me. Ever. No apology, explanation, or other rhetoric will change my mind. You can't be trusted with confidential information.

It is really sad that some posters think the prolific spread of confidential FRC info is ok.

Paul

[techtiger1]

The moderators are excellent people that everyone should be happy are affiliated with these forums. FIRST is correct in taking game leaks and censorship very seriously.

[tim-tim]

As someone who acted on the information, please let me share my side. At the time, there was no indication that the information was not supposed to be out in public. To be honest, I stumbled across the same link, prior to the first post appearing on CD, while trying to get to some FTC info. Like any other thread that even vaguely looks like a hint, it took off like wildfire. At this point sharing any thoughts and vantage points is the norm.

Then, as soon as the thread was deleted, my entire thought process changed. Maybe this wasn't supposed to be known. Was this an accident? What am I supposed to do? I really felt (and still do) bad about the decision I made, but I could not undo what had been done. What hurt the most is seeing the picture I made pop up on other websites - after it was deleted from CD.

Looking back and knowing what I know now, I guess it is pretty obvious that the info should not have been shared on CD (which ultimately led to it being shared elsewhere). I know that there is nothing that I can really say to fix this, but I still want to apologize for my actions.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

It didn't take long for an old hack like myself to figure it out (but have told no one).

I, too, am an old hack ... but I won't go looking. I don't want to know.

If some other team gets an advantage over mine because they saw something 3 days earlier than my team did, then so be it. There's nothing I can do about that.

I prefer the 'OH, my!!! :ahh: ' moment during kickoff to knowing beforehand.

[MooreteP]

MetaKickoff.

I have been waiting with baited breath on New Years eve for the past 18 years in anticipation of the FRC game release the following Saturday.

BITD, there was no stinkin' Game Hint! (We didn't use acronyms or emoticons either) ;)
Then came the NASA broadcasts from New Hampshire, and we had to make sure that the receiving dish on top of our Town Hall was aimed at the right satellite.

Dean, Woody and others would pretend to be Robots on a new field, manipulating the game piece in front of an audience of teams and dignitaries.

Oh, how FIRST has mirrored the changes in technology and our world. The Game release is pretty much pre-produced.
And now we have our own lil' WikiLeaks.

I am enjoying this discussion more than the Game Hint thread.
Ethics, espionage, subterfuge, suppression!

Cheers to all of the comments here. They are, for the most part, thoughtful, intelligent, and enlightening.

Happy 2015.

Get ready for the best "waste of time" that I can imagine!

[wireties]

For those of you think it is "fair game" to spread confidential information once it is public, I say this: I will never, ever consider hiring you to work for me. Ever. No apology, explanation, or other rhetoric will change my mind. You can't be trusted with confidential information.

Ditto! I hope the persons involved learn a valuable lesson - this kind of thing can damage and/or ruin ones education, career and/or reputation. One day you might have to pass a polygraph question phrased EXACTLY like this "Have you ever betrayed a trust?" or interview with Paul (perhaps scarier).

[evanperryg]

Just as an observation: I noticed in this thread that there really seem to be two different perceptions of FIRST as an organization. On one end there is a "the small town" or "small company" perception of FIRST, where people feel a real give and take with FIRST HQ and see FIRST HQ in a very personal light. On the other end there is a "big city view" or "corporate" of FIRST. The relationship with FIRST is much less personal. This view sees FIRST HQ as the organization that releases the game rules, runs worlds, and that's about it. I wonder where the position on this spectrum of an "average team" is and where it will shift as FIRST continues to grow. Again, this is pretty irrelevant to the main topic of the thread (though so is much of the debate on this thread anyways). It's just something I noticed, and I was wondering if anyone else noticed it as well.
Fasten your seatbelts, it's philosophy time!

This is a very apt observation, and it has more to do with the original topic than you may think. What i have seen in this thread leads me to think that there is a large portion of CD that subscribes to the "big city" perception. This perception, to some extent, seems to attribute some godlike, infallible poperties to HQ. Many people may think of FIRST as this magical overlord, a "big brother" overseeing teams around the world in the pursuit of a perfect robot. As much as we say it ironically, it seems some may take the concept of "FIRST is love FIRST is life" to the literal extreme, and to this I would like to extend a friendly "get real." We make robots, but we are not robots, and neither are the people at FIRST. None of us are perfect, and neither are the people at HQ. Somebody screwed up and that's alright; the fact that this is the first time in many years that a mistake like this has occurred is truly amazing. When we choose to support the "big city, big brother" pereption of FIRST by hiding their occasional mistakes, we lose one of the most special things about FIRST. It's a community. Every team, every student, every administrator and developer and brilliant mind in FIRST is an independent, yet connected member of this community. This connection, in many ways, is also shared between teams and the FIRST organization, and it is this bond that allows FIRST to work by fostering excitement for engineering through the inspiration that comes with being involved in such a massive, connected organization as FIRST. However, by creating an image of HQ as an Orwellian overlord we distance ourselves from the humanity of FIRST and the incredible binding force which it has created.

Nevertheless, privacy of information is important. Screwing with it with malicious intent is a stupid and shameful thing to do, but the end fact is that somebody messed up and spreading of the information was bound to happen, because people do dumb things. It's been stated multiple times that the entire leak began as a mistake, followed by a misconception in the form of a CD post, followed by some innocent sharing of the mistake, followed by malicious sharing of the mistake. The fact is, people make mistakes, and other people like to take advantage of those mistakes. End of story.

[Christopher149]

As someone who did not see the "leak" (just some of its wreckage), and since it is now a couple weeks into build season, would it be out of line to ask what was leaked? (not trying to divert the thread from its intended topic, just curious)

If anyone feels that it shouldn't be made more public or dragged up again, I'm cool with that. Happy build season to you all.

[asid61]

As someone who did not see the "leak" (just some of its wreckage), and since it is now a couple weeks into build season, would it be out of line to ask what was leaked? (not trying to divert the thread from its intended topic, just curious)

If anyone feels that it shouldn't be made more public or dragged up again, I'm cool with that. Happy build season to you all.

I would like to know as well, out of curiosity.

[excel2474]

As someone who did not see the "leak" (just some of its wreckage), and since it is now a couple weeks into build season, would it be out of line to ask what was leaked? (not trying to divert the thread from its intended topic, just curious)

If anyone feels that it shouldn't be made more public or dragged up again, I'm cool with that. Happy build season to you all.

Since the game has already been revealed, I'm sure the moderators will not mind disclosing the leaked info.

Andymark listed an item for sale called "2015 game piece" and described the exact gray tote. No picture of the tote was posted though. Somebody looking on Andymark's website saw this product listing, took a screen shot of it, and posted it to chief delphi. It's now floating around the internet on sites like imgur and reddit.

[Tungrus]

Probably this thread (after it digressed from original question) helped in spreading the "leak" rather than curtailing it. When the discussion turned into "moral", "ethical" and "fairness" etc., there must have been few who were curious to go and look for the "leak" even if the intention was not malicious.

Now do I want to see what was "leaked"? May be, just to see what did I miss on CD that others saw it as leak? Or may be not, why would I care?

[wilsonmw04]

Probably this thread (after it digressed from original question) helped in spreading the "leak" rather than curtailing it. When the discussion turned into "moral", "ethical" and "fairness" etc., there must have been few who were curious to go and look for the "leak" even if the intention was not malicious.

Now do I want to see what was "leaked"? May be, just to see what did I miss on CD that others saw it as leak? Or may be not, why would I care?

I love these anonymous posters. They have such insight...

[Foster]

So I have to say that had I seen it on the AndyMark site I would have gone "Totes as a game piece? Nope, must be the web guy putting a placeholder in for next weeks release." I mean, really, totes as a game piece?

On the other hand had it been the 5 gallon water bottles I'd been all over posting the "water game is on!!!" :rolleyes:

[excel2474]

So I have to say that had I seen it on the AndyMark site I would have gone "Totes as a game piece? Nope, must be the web guy putting a placeholder in for next weeks release." I mean, really, totes as a game piece?

I think a lot of people would have suspected it was a mistake, but the CD moderators pretty much confirmed its validity when they removed all posts that talked about it.

[RoboMom]

So I have to say that had I seen it on the AndyMark site I would have gone "Totes as a game piece? Nope, must be the web guy putting a placeholder in for next weeks release." I mean, really, totes as a game piece?

There is a wonderful non-profit here called the Baltimore Tool Bank. They rent out all sorts of equipment for 3% of the value of the item - for a week. I was visiting yesterday. (where else can you rent a 100' x 20' clean tarp for $3/week?) They showed me a new item and said "we don't know how to list this on the inventory." I took one look, started laughing and said "In my world that is called a game piece, aka, a tote."

[RunawayEngineer]

So I have to say that had I seen it on the AndyMark site I would have gone "Totes as a game piece? Nope, must be the web guy putting a placeholder in for next weeks release." I mean, really, totes as a game piece?

On the other hand had it been the 5 gallon water bottles I'd been all over posting the "water game is on!!!" :rolleyes:

Anyone who was slightly familiar 2003 game Stack Attack wouldn't have doubted totes as a reasonable game piece.
It also fit with the popular beliefs that the game piece would not be a ball and that the game would not involve projectiles.

[Tungrus]

I love these anonymous posters. They have such insight...

What has anonymity got to do with this? Normally people will not try to find something they don't know. When they find out potential "leak" curiosity kicks in.

[wilsonmw04]

What has anonymity got to do with this? Normally people will not try to find something they don't know. When they find out potential "leak" curiosity kicks in.

Actually, I was talking about you.

[Ginger Power]

Tungrus has been an active, and helpful contributor to Chief Delphi from what I have seen. I don't think attacking his/her anonymity is the right thing to do. There are plenty of anonymous accounts who contribute to the site in a positive way. Granted there are more that detract from it. However, this isn't the case here.

[Chandalen]

Just because some anonymous posters don't live up to standards doesn't mean all don't. Some teams might ask their students not to post on chief delphi or to post anonymously because they think the potential headaches it can cause vastly outweigh the benefits of it, or it could be a personal choice to be anonymous for a number of reasons.

This isn't a comment on the quality of Tungrus' post, just a comment on anonymous users in general.

[Ginger Power]

This isn't a comment on the quality of Tungrus' post, just a comment on anonymous users in general.

Ok, after rereading it, I see what you mean. I apologize.

[AmoryG]

CD is a forum provided by a group of people. You use it with their permission. Don't like it? Don't use it.

You don't have to dislike CD to know it isn't perfect. The moderators should welcome feedback so that they can improve user experience.

[Amar Shah]

Here is the screenshot of the page that was posted to Reddit and later deleted:
http://imgur.com/r/frc/Y63KYXb
http://imgur.com/Y63KYXb.jpg

[Christopher149]

Here is the screenshot of the page that was posted to Reddit and later deleted:
http://imgur.com/r/frc/Y63KYXb
http://imgur.com/Y63KYXb.jpg

I'm mildly amused that it claims to be both a 2014 and 2015 game piece. Well, that sates the curiosity.

[IronicDeadBird]

So I have to say that had I seen it on the AndyMark site I would have gone "Totes as a game piece? Nope, must be the web guy putting a placeholder in for next weeks release." I mean, really, totes as a game piece?

On the other hand had it been the 5 gallon water bottles I'd been all over posting the "water game is on!!!" :rolleyes:

Thats what I thought!
I assumed that they were used to hold game pieces or something like that.

You don't have to dislike CD to know it isn't perfect. The moderators should welcome feedback so that they can improve user experience.

From my experience the moderators do respond very promptly to questions just don't over do it. There is also a Forum Support section you could in theory post feedback to.

[Chris is me]

If moderating posts for content is seen as horribly unjust and wrong, what exactly are moderators for?

The entire premise of FRC relies on the game being a secret. Is it too much to ask that if something leaks, you discuss it somewhere else if you absolutely have to do so?

I guess I just don't see how some people can feel so entitled to talk about whatever they want in spaces that aren't their own. Especially information that's supposed to be secret / confidential, on a forum that is all but the "official" place to talk about FRC on the internet.

Go be mad about something else actually worth your time, seriously.

And for those of you who both saw the leaked information and also began acting on it (working on prototype design, etc...). You cheated. You should be ashamed of yourselves. That's not Gracious Professionalism and that's not what fair competitors with integrity would do.

[asid61]

That's like a pretty huge hint actually. It would be a small step from there to assume that we're stacking them.
Acting on that would be pretty unfair IMO.

[wilsonmw04]

I hate when my posts get deleted. Well said!
:deadhorse:

Another pointless Anonymous account... :deadhorse:

[Gweiss96]

Another pointless Anonymous account... :deadhorse:

How do you know that is not someone's real account? I'm just saying (not trying to pick a fight). For all we know, it could be you or me!

[wilsonmw04]

How do you know that is not someone's real account? I'm just saying (not trying to pick a fight). For all we know, it could be you or me!

look at the 6 posts he created today;the day it was created. ALL of them are Troll posts.

[Gweiss96]

look at the 6 posts he created today;the day it was created. ALL of them are Troll posts.

Eh, you're probably right.

[IronicDeadBird]

How do you know that is not someone's real account? I'm just saying (not trying to pick a fight). For all we know, it could be you or me!

Well it can't be me cause multi account is bannable...