rick.oliver
07-01-2015, 10:18
I am also pleased that Frank confirmed the GDC intentions and that they had identified the potential prior to releasing the game. Interesting that they chose not to implement a "fix" until after release.
Here is what I would prefer to see happen:
G33 LITTER may be introduced onto the FIELD only during TELEOP and only in the following ways:
A. through the LITTER CHUTE, or
B. over the ALLIANCE WALL during the last twenty (20) seconds of the MATCH.
VIOLATION: FOUL per LITTER.
Scoring Change:
LITTER Scored in/on a RECYCLING CONTAINER 6 per LITTER
UNPROCESSED LITTER Bonus 0 per LITTER
COOPERTITION LITTER Scored in a LANDFILL ZONE or STEP * 1 per LITTER
I am also pleased that Frank confirmed the GDC intentions and that they had identified the potential prior to releasing the game. Interesting that they chose not to implement a "fix" until after release.
My guess is they wanted to see how teams would handle it, but this thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1423492) convinced them it wasn't going over how they wanted. It also explains why the fix wasn't ready, since the thread was only started a few hours before the update.
To be honest, I'm all for changing the noodle rule from a bonus to the other team to a penalty for the team with the "unprocessed litter". I believe it to be the simplest way to discourage TNA. Maybe make it a two point penalty or something.
AndreaC.
Without quoting you....Once TNA was a mentioned game strategy (BTW the most discussed game strategy so far on CD by the length of threads and extreme number of posts mentioning TNA or other pasta recipies). Recent history proves, that some form of it will survive into the competitions, if the rules were simply not changed (some change there is coming, we now know so, by Frank's long note), and say the GDC just decided to (as you suggested), simply suggest Teams & Alliances should not participate in any form of Noodly (or Pasta or littering), Collusion.
Just reading on CD long enough will show, that the overlying thoughts of "If there isn't a specific game rule against a certain thing published in the rules, then It is legal, and a viable game strategy if it scores points, or keeps your opponent from scoring points." And yes, even if you both can score points....Afterall, it still is a COMPETITION.
The problem with TNA given the possible points one can amass (and the change from W-L-T to Qualifying Average Points or QA this year), of +40~+50possible max litter points per game (if the strategy is employed, agreed to, and carried out fully by all parties (any really, since just 1 match, any 2 alliances can employ it and therefore force all others following, to also either employ it also, or risk as a group, falling way behind in their possible total points averages), all the possible points will total using a successful across the board TNA Strategy will be between 400~500 points for each team over 10 Q matches (depending on either collusion strategy employed "The Full Monte" =10 littered per side = +40, or "The Half/Half" =use 5 in RC's/litter 5 up to= +50 points per Alliance and team). There are also many other combinations possible too (up to 7 RC's for 1 side/7 used in scored bins 7X6=+42 plus 3 littered -12, or 3 Landfilled scored +3...or, or, or....
400~500 possible "easily scored points" over a 10 Q period is huge in the QA points averaging, and would not easily be dismissed out of hand as a game strategy (It takes 200~250 Grey properly placed & stacked Totes to score that many points over the same 10 Q matches!) Of course, that does not add the possible RC (including the level multiplyers), & Litter bonuses either, but you cannot score those unless stacking Grey Totes.
I'll go 1 further....Just read a Q&A question and answer that made me think even further about possible TNA Strategies...Drive Team Members/Human Players (minus the coaches since they cannot touch the game pcs.), may according to the question posed (though asked not fully in the only possible scenario...They asked about Human Players only, & the answer was more encompassing than the question though w/ starting line limits for Drivers....).
Ok, the Question posed without quoting (I have no access currently to the actual Q&A), was...."Can Human players touch the Totes & the Litter & enter the Human Player Zones during the Auto period"....The answer was (without quoting again)...."YES, Human players even during AUTO can handle the game pcs., and can enter the Human Zones, though DRIVERS must remain behind the Start Line. (Which extends from carpet edge to carpet edge, BTW), they...HUMAN PLAYERS, can even enter game pcs. onto the field...Remember those possibly removed Yellow Totes? At first I wondered why you would ever want to remove one...ever, now I know why.
Throwing away that previous rule book meant HUGE (not just big), changes were coming (rarely could human players, or drivers, do anything but wait patiently...(except during the hybrid-auto start 2 yrs. ago),...during the Auto period). This year, up to 9 Human Players & even Drivers (as long as Drivers stay behind the start line....Nobody asked/answered, about where Coaches can go yet), can take some kind of game pc. action during the Auto Period (even the Coaches can help direct them, as long as they don't actually touch the game pcs.).
OK, reason I stated all the above....Let's say that all stayed the same as is now concerning published Litter Rules....The TNA is discussed and 5 of 6 Teams Agree to collude (1 says...absolutely not, we created a fantastic Litter manipulator, and by gosh, we plan to deploy & employ it in this game, we will show you!
The other 5 all wink at each other & nod (the 3 Coaches get w/ the other 2 Coaches, if even by a simple pre-worked up hand signal, while superteam is attaching their hard labor created and super fantastic Litter Inserter, and the match is about to start. The TNA is on even if the 6th team does not wish to play the game that way (I agree, no team should ever be forced to participate in TNA if they do not wish to be), so everybody get behind the Start Line Please, the match is about to begin.....
The Human Player of one of the TNA agreed 5 Teams gets right in the middle between the Litter Bin and the Drivers...facing the Litter Bin, And, as soon as the Buzzer sounds to start the Auto Period (Arms wide, snatches all 10 of the Litter, and walks them over to 1 of the Human Player Zones and stores them right under the Tote Chute and takes up residence in that Human Zone throughout the match (same on the other end of the field, same side of the field...so vision is easiest maybe?...Though I would think that will be very difficult and extremely tenuous at the very best after walls of 6 high + stacks are formed, by my view!)
Now, the team that didn't want to play TNA (and has a Litter manipulator), is forced to play TNA whether they like to or not (and will gain the +40 points if TNA is successful, but, may just be unhappy anyway with that forced 5/1 or 4/2 Tteam/2 Alliance Collusion without their willful participation), their Human Player cannot enter the occupied HP Zone, as long as the HP stays in that zone, without incurring the wrath of a FOUL, cannot reach into that zone to snatch a Litter pc. from their own alliance member Human player, or even test their Litter manipulator in real field conditions...And TNA is still employed. (Though how successfully...would be certainly a matter of personal perspective). Not everybody agrees in Majority Rules when dealing w/ multiple team game strategy...Feelings can still be hurt easily.
See, the GDC dealing with it to either negate the plusses (or at least reducing the plusses), of employing TNA as a Game Strategy has a ton of merit....If nothing else but a simple peacekeeping method. And a method to certainly make the game a bit more enjoyable.
I think you'll find that it will be harder to use the TNA "Littering Strategy of...."You put 1 in, we put 1 in, back & forth," agreement honesty verifyier method, in the last 20 match seconds, will find their vision much hampered by all those totes and bins nicely stacked on both ends of each field in 4 pretty solid high walls...At least I certainly surely hope THEY ALL DO!
(PS: By the above method...Only 2 Single Teams...1 each from opposing Alliances in Match 1, could actually force almost All Teams into TNA without a problem (or the rest get left in the dust in QA), by simply employing at the same time the very simple 10 Pasta Snatch/HZ Campout each). So Massive TNA Collusion isn't really necessary at all. Try that on for size.
I am fully looking forward to the publishing of a Litter rule change.:D
Conor Ryan
09-01-2015, 19:32
RIP Noodle Agreement
1/3/2015-1/9/2015
"You Do It! No You FIRST!"
Rule Update 2015-01-09:
http://contentviewer.adobe.com/s/FIRST/29d775cf-7df1-5bea-97a2-3309a6deda88/FRCTeamUpdates/cover.html
New Team Update says LITTER will be color coded per ALLIANCE.
plnyyanks
09-01-2015, 19:34
Take a look at today's team update (http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Game_and_Season__Info/2015/2015TeamUpdates0109.pdf), effectively removing TNA
Alliances that leave unscored LITTER marked in the other Alliance’s color on their side of the Field at the end of the match add points to the score of the other Alliance, as it is considered unprocessed and not properly disposed.
So they went with the strategy of coloring the noodles. Can't really complain
Bummer. That is pretty darn nerfed.
does not mean that both teams still cant get 40 points (assuming they have amazing throwing arms)... but it does mean that noodles will be everywhere in odd places, noodle-blocking stacking and such.
And robots still cant manipulate noodles to the other side of the field, so.... that is also a bummer.
Noodles are dead...Reduced to nothing but "Litter" now folks. k sara:cool: Pasta Presto.
Doug Frisk
10-01-2015, 15:53
Take a look at today's team update (http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Game_and_Season__Info/2015/2015TeamUpdates0109.pdf), effectively removing TNA
So they went with the strategy of coloring the noodles. Can't really complain
Cool, it even seems they went with something like the gaff tape suggestion I made earlier.
sviridovt
12-01-2015, 11:41
We can still have the agreement (since the two alliances arent competing against each other) to not actively try to 'descore' other alliance's noodles, or maybe even help the other alliance to transport their noodle to the auto zone if they dont make the throw...
Rangel(kf7fdb)
12-01-2015, 12:59
We can still have the agreement (since the two alliances arent competing against each other) to not actively try to 'descore' other alliance's noodles, or maybe even help the other alliance to transport their noodle to the auto zone if they dont make the throw...
I doubt it. I think most people are underestimating the task of just pushing noodles on the ground. Unless you design a specific drivetrain or subsystem, most robots are just going to run them over instead of push them. The noodle agreement was only really likely because everyone would be able to do it. Now that this is no longer the case, you want to maximize your score and minimize your opponents. Although it's not about W/L/T anymore, doing as much as you can to lower the score of the opposing alliance is very beneficial, especially if you want to knock someone out of the top rankings or lower them a bit. So long as it doesn't negatively impact your own score of course.
josh_gross
12-01-2015, 15:23
now the real question is what do you do if they dont agree to it?
vBulletin® v3.6.4, Copyright ©2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.