Humans Stacking Crates

[Mineboy2300]

In looking at the rules during the kickoff, we noticed that there is no rule saying that the human player cannot stack up 2 totes under the chute. this would allow a robot to simply push the stack into position saving a considerable amount of time. is this a legal srategy?

[KevinG]

Assuming it actually works when you do it, no there isn't a rule prohibiting it.

[theCADguy]

Yes, this seems to be legal and is a pretty good idea. There is no rule against doing so. However, its probably better to develop a system that can collect and stack within or near the robot, due to the fact that the human player station takes some extra time (load the tote and open the gate), and because the human player station may be unreliable in creating stacks in this manner. Also, if you had a mechanism to do it, you could create larger stacks that are worth more points, and that can be topped off with a container and noodle.

[staplemonx]

We did some mock testing today and showed it can be done pretty easily. we also looked at building a 2 tote, 1 container stack and seeing if the noodle chute would allow us to turn it from an 18 point stack to a 24 point stack. so far it look doable, but the noddle will need to bend just right. we are going to build the human station to test this out this week. If it works all we would have to do is put a container on the two human stacked totes and then push or lift the bottom tote for the score.

[jds2001]

Do keep in mind G6, which I think is designed to prohibit things like this:

G6 A single ALLIANCE member may not be in contact with both a TOTE and the CHUTE DOOR simultaneously..

From where the CHUTE DOOR is located, it may well be impossible to satisfy the requirements of this rule (i.e. your ROBOT would be in contact with the TOTE, and your HUMAN PLAYER would be in contact with the CHUTE DOOR)

Or perhaps I've completely misunderstood the rule, or your strategy.

[Christopher149]

Do keep in mind G6, which I think is designed to prohibit things like this:

G6 A single ALLIANCE member may not be in contact with both a TOTE and the CHUTE DOOR simultaneously..

From where the CHUTE DOOR is located, it may well be impossible to satisfy the requirements of this rule (i.e. your ROBOT would be in contact with the TOTE, and your HUMAN PLAYER would be in contact with the CHUTE DOOR)

Or perhaps I've completely misunderstood the rule, or your strategy.

I think the meaning of G6 is that a human player can't open the chute door and then forcibly push the tote onto the field.

Edit: meaning that if the second tote falls naturally by gravity onto the first, then it should be legal.

[Sparkyshires]

I think the meaning of G6 is that a human player can't open the chute door and then forcibly push the tote onto the field.

Edit: meaning that if the second tote falls naturally by gravity onto the first, then it should be legal.

Yup, that's it. You can't set it where you want. So long as a human isn't physically contacting both, your fine.

[aztecprincess98]

That is interesting, humans can stack the totes, it is true that this year, change has come.

[Sparkyshires]

That is interesting, humans can stack the totes, it is true that this year, change has come.

Yup. arrrggghhh, they were doing so well with the spectator sports! My 84 year old grandma screamed herself hoarse last year from excitement at the competition. Does anyone think that's really gonna happen this year?

my $0.02

[IronicDeadBird]

We did some mock testing today and showed it can be done pretty easily. we also looked at building a 2 tote, 1 container stack and seeing if the noodle chute would allow us to turn it from an 18 point stack to a 24 point stack. so far it look doable, but the noddle will need to bend just right. we are going to build the human station to test this out this week. If it works all we would have to do is put a container on the two human stacked totes and then push or lift the bottom tote for the score.

I am assuming you had it land on the ground you didn't elevate it to simulate a robot at all?

[RoboChair]

Relevant link here of it being tried.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h928WDUTPSA&feature=youtu.be&a

[Aur0r4]

We had several students and mentors at the live kickoff and full field at SNHU. They ran a good 30 iterations of releasing the totes through the human player chute and said that not one single time would they land on their top/bottom. The angle of the chute virtually guarantees that the totes land on any side but a stackable one.

[staplemonx]

I am assuming you had it land on the ground you didn't elevate it to simulate a robot at all?

Correct. but now that we have seen the 3 day build video. we are not as confident in our quick mockup results.

[rjmah]

Can you push down on the chute door to reduce the speed of tote as it slides down and thus keep the first tote from flipping?

[dellagd]

Can you push down on the chute door to reduce the speed of tote as it slides down and thus keep the first tote from flipping?

I haven't tried it, but wouldn't that increase the chance of the first tote flipping?

[Greger]

Mineboy2300: If I understand your strategy to mean that yellow totes are stacked and placed by human players on the field below the chute, then I believe G13 and by extension Section 3.1.4: Match Logistics prohibits this approach. You have two options, leave your totes on the field in the staging zone or remove the yellow tote from the field and place it in the designated starting position of the alliance station.

"However, if a DRIVE TEAM elects to leave their Yellow TOTE in the STAGING ZONE, they must leave it as positioned by the FIELD STAFF." Also, from the blue block below Figure 3-7. "There are no rules that prohibit a ROBOT from being in contact with TOTES or RECYCLING CONTAINERS at the start of the MATCH, as long as those items were not moved from their STAGING ZONE..."

[BenBraun3090]

Mineboy2300: If I understand your strategy to mean that yellow totes are stacked and placed by human players on the field below the chute, then I believe G13 and by extension Section 3.1.4: Match Logistics prohibits this approach. You have two options, leave your totes on the field in the staging zone or remove the yellow tote from the field and place it in the designated starting position of the alliance station.

"However, if a DRIVE TEAM elects to leave their Yellow TOTE in the STAGING ZONE, they must leave it as positioned by the FIELD STAFF." Also, from the blue block below Figure 3-7. "There are no rules that prohibit a ROBOT from being in contact with TOTES or RECYCLING CONTAINERS at the start of the MATCH, as long as those items were not moved from their STAGING ZONE..."

I think that they have been talking about the grey totes during Teleop, not the Yellow totes during Auto

[Greger]

Thanks BenBraun3090! My bad, carry on!

[Hallry]

We had several students and mentors at the live kickoff and full field at SNHU. They ran a good 30 iterations of releasing the totes through the human player chute and said that not one single time would they land on their top/bottom. The angle of the chute virtually guarantees that the totes land on any side but a stackable one.

That's odd. In the official Field Tour videos, it seems like the tote easily landed top-side-up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sryrCE4mAo#t=133

[Jay O'Donnell]

That's odd. In the official Field Tour videos, it seems like the tote easily landed top-side-up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sryrCE4mAo#t=133

I was the one doing said tests on the field in Manchester. Everytime we did it, the bin ended up staying on its side. Something for every team to test on their own I think.

[MrBasse]

Our students found that if you opened the door quickly the tote landed flat on the ground. Any hesitation at all resulted in a tipped over tote.

[Hallry]

Does anyone have video of their team testing their different techniques on the Kickoff fields?

[Jay O'Donnell]

Our students found that if you opened the door quickly the tote landed flat on the ground. Any hesitation at all resulted in a tipped over tote.

This is an interesting point. I can't say I remember if I was hesitating or not. We'll do some more testing once we have a human player station built.

[aldaeron]

Can someone that has built a loader station (or saw a real one at kickoff) comment on how fast a reasonable human player can load totes onto the field/robot? I assume they have a nice stack right next to the loader. Please let us know if there is a reason to go fast or slow to get it to fall best on the ground.

Thanks!

-matto-

[ehochstein]

Can someone that has built a loader station (or saw a real one at kickoff) comment on how fast a reasonable human player can load totes onto the field/robot? I assume they have a nice stack right next to the loader. Please let us know if there is a reason to go fast or slow to get it to fall best on the ground.

Thanks!

-matto-

I'll try and get a video made tomorrow addressing this. We have a couple of other videos in the queue (namely one about upside-down crates) and a couple of critical robot items that need to get done but I should be able to delegate. I'll post the video here when it is finished.

Evan

[TylerStaudigel]

The totes can be stacked if aided by a robot. During our tests we found that the totes most likely will no land bottom down, but if we place a solid object (such as a robot) a few feet in front of the chute we found that It can reliably stack two totes to be transported. :]

[akgsteelers]

I believe this rule is stating that a human player is not able to open the chute, while still holding onto the tote, therefore being able to place the tote however he/she wants onto the field.

[StephenNutt]

I'd like to know how quickly a human player can safely put 6 totes through the chute (assuming the robot is capable of moving the totes out of the way fast enough to keep the chute exit clear - say a conveyer belt). Has anyone built the human player station and able to time this? An approximate time is good enough - are we talking 10 seconds, 15?

Thanks

Steve

[Bruceb]

so G6 A single ALLIANCE member may not be in contact with both a TOTE and the CHUTE DOOR simultaneously..

please not the word SINGLE.
There are 3 HP's and only 2 alliance stations.
Can one HP open the door while the second HP pushes the bin through?
Or for that matter can one HP hold the door open while the second does a continuous feed or some version of that?

[pntbll1313]

so G6 A single ALLIANCE member may not be in contact with both a TOTE and the CHUTE DOOR simultaneously..

please not the word SINGLE.
There are 3 HP's and only 2 alliance stations.
Can one HP open the door while the second HP pushes the bin through?
Or for that matter can one HP hold the door open while the second does a continuous feed or some version of that?

As long as you are sure that only 1 Human player is actually located in the zone.

G5 Only one ALLIANCE member may be in each HUMAN PLAYER ZONE at a time.
VIOLATION: FOUL. Additional FOUL for each TOTE entered onto the FIELD while in violation of this rule.

[ehochstein]

Can someone that has built a loader station (or saw a real one at kickoff) comment on how fast a reasonable human player can load totes onto the field/robot? I assume they have a nice stack right next to the loader. Please let us know if there is a reason to go fast or slow to get it to fall best on the ground.

Thanks!

-matto-

We did our best to answer your question here http://youtu.be/JNJ18li5wyo.

Evan

[Thad House]

I think it will be important for teams to use identical materials as the real field for the chute. Otherwise, the tote most likely will not fall the same way that it would on the field.

[StephenNutt]

I think it will be important for teams to use identical materials as the real field for the chute. Otherwise, the tote most likely will not fall the same way that it would on the field.

Agreed. From Field Tour Videos - Behind the Alliance Wall (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sryrCE4mAo#t=115), the field cute seems perhaps a little hard to get the tote into and the pieces are falling differently, perhaps indicating the final speed, so CoF, is different.

[Thad House]

I also think someone should ask what they will be cleaning the chutes with, and how often. In 2013 we lemon pledged our human player intake to clean it, and the Frisbees probably traveled 3 times as fast down it. It was so fast we had to go and find some sawdust to slow it down, otherwise it shot the disks out the back.

[aldaeron]

We did our best to answer your question here http://youtu.be/JNJ18li5wyo.

Evan

Any reason not to have the totes stacked next to the chute? I figure the 3rd human player will be bringing then to the edge of the human player zone and the human players inbounding will then scoot them close to the chute