Making sure EVERY Team can do Auto

[JohnFogarty]

I hope everyone has read this with the same thought in mind I have. It's now even more crucial to your alliance's auto score that you make sure every partner you have can at least at a minimum move into the auto zone. Otherwise you won't get even the minimum robot set points.

[Jacob Bendicksen]

Seems like it wouldn't be a bad idea to have sample LabView, Java, and C++ code on a flash drive that alliance members (and other teams, for that matter) can copy over before a match.

[Arhowk]

Was it any different last year? It might've been even more crucial due to ball placement.

I'd like to see a team do a dynamic stack-based auton, though. I had a great system devised before kickoff that I think would tackle the solution but I won't be working on it.

[Christopher149]

Was it any different last year? It might've been even more crucial due to ball placement.

I'd like to see a team do a dynamic stack-based auton, though. I had a great system devised before kickoff that I think would tackle the solution but I won't be working on it.

Last year, you didn't need your partners to get some points. This year, you need them to get any (very nearly, and especially the ROBOT SET).

[x86_4819]

The other option is to have one robot handle all 3 of something. Seems that 3-tote-stacker autos would be pretty valuable this year.

[who716]

if a robot doesn't move you can always place them right next to the alliance zone and push them into it

[JohnFogarty]

Last year, you didn't need your partners to get some points. This year, you need them to get any (very nearly, and especially the ROBOT SET).

Exactly this.

I'm a fan of the specialization of roles. I want a clarification weather or not you can actually score more than three gray bins in auto.

[who716]

Exactly this.

I'm a fan of the specialization of roles. I want a clarification weather or not you can actually score more than three gray bins in auto.

gray bins can not be scored in auto you can move them around all over creation during auto even stack them but the stack wont count in auto

[alopex_rex]

Exactly this.
I want a clarification weather or not you can actually score more than three gray bins in auto.

You can't score any gray totes in auton. There are only 3 yellow totes, so no way to score more. You can only score 3 recycling containers:

A CONTAINER SET exists if any three (3) RECYCLING CONTAINERS are fully contained by the AUTO ZONE at the end of AUTO

[ENeyman]

I thought you can score gray totes in auto. What's to prevent you from stacking them?

[alopex_rex]

Clarification: you don't get points in autonomous from gray totes. You're free to do whatever I want with them afaik, but you don't get auton points.

[ENeyman]

Right, the points will be assessed after teleop ends. But you would still get points, right?

[Kevin Sevcik]

Right, the points will be assessed after teleop ends. But you would still get points, right?Yes, but why are you wasting your time in auton on something that's not going to get you any points anyways?

[Elius_Linkus]

Seems like it wouldn't be a bad idea to have sample LabView, Java, and C++ code on a flash drive that alliance members (and other teams, for that matter) can copy over before a match.

It'd be nice if we could somehow ensure that all our alliance members had something in terms of autonomous, but how likely is it that whatever "sample" you program will be compatible with their robot? It would almost seem better to set autonomous-incapable robots out of the way while you score the bins and totes, or just forcibly move their robot into the auto-zone.

[ENeyman]

Yes, but why are you wasting your time in auton on something that's not going to get you any points anyways?

My question is: Does it get you points? No where in the manual can I find that stacks of gray totes made during auton will not be counted.

My thinking is that since auton this year is so dependent on your other two alliance partners, maybe it's more worth it to try to score some gray totes and get your alliance some "for-sure" points.

[who716]

Yes, but why are you wasting your time in auton on something that's not going to get you any points anyways?

exactly there are numerous other things that can be accomplished in auto that would be a better option if if it not scoring the totes or cans

[Tim Sharp]

Yes, but why are you wasting your time in auton on something that's not going to get you any points anyways?

It could be a "least bad strategy" if you had particularly weak alliance partners.

[alopex_rex]

Points for teleop are assigned at the end of the match. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that means that totes stacked during autonomous will be scored just the same as those stacked during teleop.

I don't know if that would make sense, but seeing as it's one of the few auton strategies that doesn't require assistance from alliance partners it may be worth looking into.

[ENeyman]

...but seeing as it's one of the few auton strategies that doesn't require assistance from alliance partners it may be worth looking into.

Yeah, in MAR at least there are always a few bots that don't have a solid auton. Our thinking was, in addition to a "yellow-tote auton", we would have a "gray-tote auton" that gets us 4-6 points without relying on our teammates. Obviously, these would be considered teleop points and therefore wouldn't help our rankings as much.

Still, if anyone could provide a rules clarification, that would be great.

[KineticCougar]

Every team should definitely do auto! At the very least, all three robots per alliance should move. I personally think that all teams should move a recycle container into the auto zone as that gives 8 pts for a set. This would add up to 12 pts for the alliance. There should be some cooperation between the teams of the alliances before match to make sure we are all on the same page

[Elius_Linkus]

....Still, if anyone could provide a rules clarification, that would be great.

As per the rules, the idea behind all this is in 3.1.2

3.1.2.1 AUTO
During AUTO, points are awarded for ROBOT SETS, TOTE SETS, CONTAINER SETS, and STACKED TOTE SETS. (Noting of course that this doesn't mention grey totes.)

3.1.2.3 TELEOP
During TELEOP, points are awarded for scored TOTES, RECYCLING CONTAINERS, and LITTER.

Even more specifically, the TELEOP subsection TOTES states that a grey tote is "scored if it is fully supported by a SCORING PLATFORM and no portion of the TOTE extends above the top of the BACKSTOP." Nothing indicating that totes have to be stacked during tele-op, just that they have to be in scoring position at the end of the match.

And again in 3.1.2.4 Point Values, we find that "TELEOP scores, with the exception of Coopertition, are assessed based on the state of the FIELD when the ARENA timer displays zero (0), or, if not all elements have come to rest, five (5) seconds after the ARENA timer displays zero (0)."

[tindleroot]

The very easiest strategy for autonomous would be to move forward 5 feet into the auto zone - this could be programmed within minutes especially if you had a template so you could just change some numbers to fit that team's robot.

The second easiest strategy is to have a robot start at the driver wall and push one tote forward into the auto zone - this gets a few more points

These two auto periods I believe will be EXTREMELY common this year, so every team should have programs written to do this (three robots pushing one tote each will work well), but many teams are going to try for the "triple-stack auto" (like three-ball from last year)

[Elius_Linkus]

....many teams are going to try for the "triple-stack auto" (like three-ball from last year)

I know I only ever saw a limited number of bots that even did a two ball autonomous, much less a three ball. Considering that teams were expected to use their default scoring mechanism last year, I don't think that multi-ball autonomouses (autonomi?) were expected to be normal, whereas this year, it would almost seem the opposite; I doubt we'll see all three of an alliance's robots interacting with the totes in order to form a stack (coordinating three robots to find the totes, the other robots, stack them, and make it into the auto zone in 15 seconds seems unlikely.) I would think that the only way we're going to see stacks in autonomous is by the efforts of a single bot, whilst its teammates are busy staying out of its way. In any other case, I doubt the robots will be able to collaborate beyond moving the totes into the auto zone.

[Abrakadabra]

Every team should definitely do auto! At the very least, all three robots per alliance should move. I personally think that all teams should move a recycle container into the auto zone as that gives 8 pts for a set. This would add up to 12 pts for the alliance. There should be some cooperation between the teams of the alliances before match to make sure we are all on the same page

I agree. I think the "universal minimal autonomous" that everyone should strive for should be to simply push a RECYCLING CONTAINER into the AUTO ZONE as quickly as possible without touching the yellow TOTE. That would then make it possible for a "stacker bot" to move across in a straight line after two CONTAINERS are clear and pick up all three yellow TOTEs, make a quick turn, and deposit the stack in the AUTO ZONE for a STACKED TOTE SET and a (relatively) easy 20 points.
(+ 4 points for the ROBOT SET = 24 points total).

In the case where there is no "stacker bot" on the alliance, then the alliance would still get the CONTAINER SET for 8 points and the ROBOT SET for an additional 4 (12 points total). (Note that the CONTAINERs do not even have to remain upright; they just need to be fully contained in the AUTO ZONE).

[RoundTabler]

I agree. I think the "universal minimal autonomous" that everyone should strive for should be to simply push a RECYCLING CONTAINER into the AUTO ZONE as quickly as possible without touching the yellow TOTE. That would then make it possible for a "stacker bot" to move across in a straight line after two CONTAINERS are clear and pick up all three yellow TOTEs, make a quick turn, and deposit the stack in the AUTO ZONE for a STACKED TOTE SET and a (relatively) easy 20 points.
(+ 4 points for the ROBOT SET = 24 points total).

In the case where there is no "stacker bot" on the alliance, then the alliance would still get the CONTAINER SET for 8 points and the ROBOT SET for an additional 4 (12 points total). (Note that the CONTAINERs do not even have to remain upright; they just need to be fully contained in the AUTO ZONE).

This is very similar to what I was thinking. The other option is for a "universal auto" to be that teams take their yellow tote to the landmark.

[bvisness]

You can only score 3 recycling containers:

It may be that you can score two Container Sets during auto:

A CONTAINER SET exists if any three (3) RECYCLING CONTAINERS are fully contained by the AUTO ZONE at the end of AUTO.

If you got 6 containers into the auto zone then this rule would imply that there are 2 Container Sets at the end of auto.

Probably a good one for the Q&A...

[wilderbuchanan]

I was wondering why they kept mentioning the landmark and i think i finally know why. It could be the "decided place" where all three robots (or two robots if one grabs two bins) would place the yellow totes. This would mean a team would know the general area where their partner placed their tote. Then using the tracking the robot could figure out exactly where to stack the other totes.

[TimTheGreat]

Should there be a github repo that people can add to with different code for different languages/drives that just move forward, that way robots can position themselves in front of a container and push it into the auto zone no prob?

[Gregor]

I was wondering why they kept mentioning the landmark and i think i finally know why. It could be the "decided place" where all three robots (or two robots if one grabs two bins) would place the yellow totes. This would mean a team would know the general area where their partner placed their tote. Then using the tracking the robot could figure out exactly where to stack the other totes.

Prediction. No team will stack a yellow tote in autonomous on top of a tote already moved (other than a small brush) by another team.

[Elius_Linkus]

Prediction. No team will stack a yellow tote in autonomous on top of a tote already moved (other than a small brush) by another team.

My thoughts exactly. That being said....

This is very similar to what I was thinking. The other option is for a "universal auto" to be that teams take their yellow tote to the landmark.

In regards to what the "Universal Autonomous" ought to be, I'd figure it would be better for teams to push their recycling bins into the auto-zone, being that:

1. A CONTAINER SET is worth more than a TOTE SET (6 pts as opposed to 8)
2. It allows robots that can stack totes in autonomous easier access to the totes

[EdWard3637]

One worry with the container set is that it's probably not worth it if there's a chance you can knock over the container by pushing it over the ramp or something.

Also we need to get word out to as many teams as possible whatever consensus is reached about the "standard" autonomous.

A collaborative STACKED TOTE SET is much more difficult than a collaborative CONTAINER SET. Some standard procedures should be created for different situations.

Robot A moves Tote A to the Landmark, Robot B moves Tote B to the landmark and places it on top of Tote A, Robot C moves Tote C to the landmark and places it on top of Tote C. Once a robot places their tote they move out of the way.

Or perhaps

Robot A holds Tote A over the landmark, Robot B moves Tote B to the landmark, Robot A puts Tote A down on Tote B and picks up the stack, Robot C moves Tote C under the stack and moves away, Robot A puts the stack on Tote C and moves away.

Depending on robot design, the best procedure changes, so we need a master protocol for which STACKED TOTE SET procedure should be used.

[Abhishek R]

My thinking is that since auton this year is so dependent on your other two alliance partners, maybe it's more worth it to try to score some gray totes and get your alliance some "for-sure" points.

You know, I'm curious as to why FIRST wants us to make a "tote set" to score any points. Why can't the points be split among each tote (i.e one tote gets 7 points, two totes gets 14, 3 totes gets 21)? This just seems to penalize an alliance so much...like, I don't even see any point to it. This just forces an all or nothing methodology and really hurts teams who are able to push one over to the zone but their alliance partners can't do so.

[Dancin103]

Seems like it wouldn't be a bad idea to have sample LabView, Java, and C++ code on a flash drive that alliance members (and other teams, for that matter) can copy over before a match.

This is a great idea - even putting it on CD...

[Arhowk]

This is a great idea - even putting it on CD...

it wouldn't be that hard to type in the pits


public void autonomousInit(){
if(!autonThread.isAlive()) autonThread.start();
autonThread.notify();
}
Thread autonThread = new Thread(){
public void run(){
while(true){
try{
robotDrive.arcadeDrive(1,0);
sleep(5000);
robotDrive.arcadeDrive(0,0);
sleep(Integer.MAX_VALUE);
}catch(Exception ex){
}
}
}

sorry for the indenting but i dd it in like 30 seconds in the text editor

e/ my bad some syntax mistakes

[wilderbuchanan]

Why is there tracking tape on the crates if there is no reason that i can think to use it other than the "landmark" idea

[Arhowk]

Why is there tracking tape on the crates if there is no reason that i can think to use it other than the "landmark" idea

Conformity. We've had tape for the past few years so... :p

[John Retkowski]

One worry with the container set is that it's probably not worth it if there's a chance you can knock over the container by pushing it over the ramp or something.

Who ever said you had to place the container upright in auto or more importantly teleop for that matter?
Though you wouldn't want it to fall over off the ramp if it caused your bot to lose the game piece.

[EdWard3637]

Who ever said you had to place the container upright in auto or more importantly teleop for that matter.

In general, you won't want to a fallen container if you didn't intend to knock it over, and putting it right side up may not be a feature of many robots.

[Elius_Linkus]

One worry with the container set is that it's probably not worth it if there's a chance you can knock over the container by pushing it over the ramp or something.

Also we need to get word out to as many teams as possible whatever consensus is reached about the "standard" autonomous.

A collaborative STACKED TOTE SET is much more difficult than a collaborative CONTAINER SET. Some standard procedures should be created for different situations.

Robot A moves Tote A to the Landmark, Robot B moves Tote B to the landmark and places it on top of Tote A, Robot C moves Tote C to the landmark and places it on top of Tote C. Once a robot places their tote they move out of the way.

Or perhaps

Robot A holds Tote A over the landmark, Robot B moves Tote B to the landmark, Robot A puts Tote A down on Tote B and picks up the stack, Robot C moves Tote C under the stack and moves away, Robot A puts the stack on Tote C and moves away.

Depending on robot design, the best procedure changes, so we need a master protocol for which STACKED TOTE SET procedure should be used.

A CONTAINER SET doesn't require the bins to be upright, just fully contained in the auto-zone. Even if you're behind the scoring platform, It' shouldn't be hard, even for a robot without any sort of pickup mechanism, to push the container forward a metre or two (admittedly, there is some worry about a tipped bin rolling out of the zone, but still, a bot without a pick-up mechanism could have a wedge shape on their robot, something to nest the bin and keep it from moving around too much.)

As for all of the bots interacting with the totes, I doubt all bots will have the capability to find the totes once they've been moved, unless every FRC team programs Autons that place the crates in exactly the same place, not just somewhere on the landmark. What would happen if the tote is slightly disoriented? Or one robot isn't out of the way when the other goes to make a stack? Trying for inter-robot interaction in Autonomous seems nearly impossible, or at least hellishly difficult, and definitely something very few teams are going to do. The best plan might be to have a few Autonomous programs that can be changed match to match (checkbox on the dashboard perhaps.) Something simple, like pushing a bin into the auto-zone, and possibly something more complex. Alliances can select who will be doing what before each match starts, and everyone could check the corresponding box when they set up. Would seem much simpler than trying to coordinate any sort of tote pass-off between robots.

[John Retkowski]

In general, you won't want to a fallen container if you didn't intend to knock it over, and putting it right side up may not be a feature of many robots.

I originally thought the same, but our team has been running some tests and sideways containers stacked on top of totes are surprisingly stable up to a point.

That being said, I predict there being alot of knocked over containers between getting the four in the center on each side, and stacks getting knocked over in teleop. Teams might want to consider/reconsider being able to pickup containers in multiple orientations.

[EdWard3637]

Can it at least be agreed that there are various standard routines that teams should attempt to run/create a dashboard option to run? My examples were just examples.

There should be collaboration across the FRC community on the various auton procedures that are most important to have.

[Arhowk]

Can it at least be agreed that there are various standard routines that teams should attempt to run/create a dashboard option to run? My examples were just examples.

There should be collaboration across the FRC community on the various auton procedures that are most important to have.

Simply put, this won't happen. Thinking realistically, if this was attempted, I can't see more than 3 teams following the standard at kettering. This really distinguishes the best of the best programmers; those who can create a static set to pickup and set the boxes in a predefined way or those that can adapt in according to their alliance's robots.

[cglrcng]

I commend the group of you even posting the ideas to work together (and help others in their auto programming), and put forth the effort to help others help themselves and you....The points will matter to everyone given the QA...But, the help of those teams that cannot get there easily on their own in auto especially, will be much more rewarding to the entire FRC community as a whole. Good to see the outlook.

[dellagd]

Prediction. No team will stack a yellow tote in autonomous on top of a tote already moved (other than a small brush) by another team.


http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121206013236/playstationallstarsbattleroyale/images/d/d2/Challenge-accepted.png

*Now another MAR team accept it too and we're golden

[Whippet]

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121206013236/playstationallstarsbattleroyale/images/d/d2/Challenge-accepted.png

*Now another MAR team accept it too and we're golden

Ditto, but for Texas.

[EdWard3637]

Autonomous Modes by importance


Drive Forward enough to move robot and game piece into Auto Zone, back up from game piece
Each Robot Place a Yellow Tote on landmark at T=5, T=8, and T=11
Each robot place a container in the auto zone, other designated robot drive back and use vision tracking to stack yellow totes and place in auto zone

[Thorn]

Grey totes are worth 2 points, so moving some grey totes around in autonomous is not a good use of time. Most teams should be able to at least get their robots to just drive forward into the auto zone; this is not much different than the minimal auto points from last year.

What makes this challenge really interesting is the stacking. If one robot moves a crate to the autozone, how does another robot find it, and then orient itself the correct way to place the next tote on top of it? The vision target is on one side, but the crate may have been placed down at an angle. Plus we need to avoid hitting each other. My team plans to write a few different programs and then decide which one to run at match time. (You can quickly ftp in to change a config file; the new RoboRio can re-deploy code without rebooting so it only takes 10-15 seconds to upload a change)

I really wish they gave some points for two crates stacked in autonomous. But it's all or nothing. Either all 3 are stacked for 20 points, or they just count as being moved into the zone for 8 points. That's a huge difference.

Is stacking three totes going to be like catching last year? It's theoretically possible, but no one actually does it during a match.

[Caleb Sykes]

Is stacking three totes going to be like catching last year? It's theoretically possible, but no one actually does it during a match.

I think it will be much more like a 3-ball auto from last year. It is theoretically possible, but you will be able to count on your fingers the teams that can do it well consistently.

[Whippet]

I think it will be much more like a 3-ball auto from last year. It is theoretically possible, but you will be able to count on your fingers the teams that can do it well consistently.

You have ≥ 254 fingers?!? :ahh:

[Tammyo]

If one of your alliance members during competition does not have a autonomous, what would be your plan of action?

[x86_4819]

Either use a robot that can score a full set of game pieces, or push them with another robot so that you get the robot set at minimum.

[IronicDeadBird]

I hope everyone has read this with the same thought in mind I have. It's now even more crucial to your alliance's auto score that you make sure every partner you have can at least at a minimum move into the auto zone. Otherwise you won't get even the minimum robot set points.

What if a team didn't want to end in the Auto zone?

[Gregor]

What if a team didn't want to end in the Auto zone?

Then they would be doing it wrong.

[Caleb Sykes]

Then they would be doing it wrong.

That depends. I can imagine good reasons not to end in the auto zone that could potentially net your alliance greater than 4 points in the long run.

[nighterfighter]

If one of your alliance members during competition does not have a autonomous, what would be your plan of action?

Quickly write the code to move them into the auto-zone, test it, then use it?

It is maybe a maximum of 6 lines in C++/Java, not sure about LabView.

The alternative is to just get an alliance member to push them into the auto-zone.

[dodar]

That depends. I can imagine good reasons not to end in the auto zone that could potentially net your alliance greater than 4 points in the long run.

Unless that entails that robot grabbing all 4 midfield bins, they should end in the auto zone.

[JohnFogarty]

If one of your alliance members during competition does not have a autonomous, what would be your plan of action?

Our programming team is being taught how to program at a general level for all three languages that teams can use to program their bot. We will have some easy to implement software written readily available should a team need an autonomous before a match. We have a large enough programming squad that should we be given enough time, we could assist teams on the practice day if need be so that everyone that we possibly can help can benefit from our work.

[nighterfighter]

Unless that entails that robot grabbing all 4 midfield bins, they should end in the auto zone.

Even grabbing just one or two recycling containers has enough scoring potential to be worth not ending in the auto-zone.

[IronicDeadBird]

Then they would be doing it wrong.

I dunno man 20 points seems trivial in this game. Maybe at lower levels but I have enough faith in the students who participate in FRC that we are going to see some pretty interesting openings.

I should clarify that unless you go for all auto points then this years opening game seems kinda like filler.

[dodar]

Even grabbing just one or two recycling containers has enough scoring potential to be worth not ending in the auto-zone.

If you are gonna grab 2, why arent you programming to bring them into the auto zone?

[nighterfighter]

If you are gonna grab 2, why arent you programming to bring them into the auto zone?

It depends on how long it takes that team's robot to acquire the bins.

Also, that robot could grab the bins, then chuck them into the auto-zone, without driving into the zone itself, depending on time constraints.

[dodar]

It depends on how long it takes that team's robot to acquire the bins.

Also, that robot could grab the bins, then chuck them into the auto-zone, without driving into the zone itself, depending on time constraints.

If you go into a match and you know it will take about 15 seconds to get those bins and you still want to get them, that means you are confident either the other alliance cannot get them or you can get them faster. In both of those cases, more often than not they will still be there after auto, so get the points while you can.

[nighterfighter]

If you go into a match and you know it will take about 15 seconds to get those bins and you still want to get them, that means you are confident either the other alliance cannot get them or you can get them faster. In both of those cases, more often than not they will still be there after auto, so get the points while you can.

Well, grabbing 2 (if an alliance member can grab one of the ones near the yellow totes) or 3 bins off the step during Auto, and being able to throw them into the auto-zone, will give you 8 points, whereas a robot set will only give 4.

And while during qualification matches, yes, those bins will probably be there after autonomous, they may not be during the elimination matches.

But this all comes down to what each individual team works out with their alliance.

(Note: I'm not saying that this is what my team is going to do. I'm also not NOT saying this is what we are going to do. :P )