Odd Autonomous Rules

[Canon reeves]

I have reviewed the autonomous rules over and over and something strikes me as being odd.
3.1.2.1 AUTO
During AUTO, points are awarded for ROBOT SETS, TOTE SETS, CONTAINER SETS, and STACKED TOTE SETS. A ROBOT SET
occurs when all ROBOTS on an ALLIANCE move themselves to, and are fully contained by, their AUTO ZONE at the end of AUTO.

A TOTE SET exists if all three (3) Yellow TOTES from an ALLIANCE are fully contained by the AUTO ZONE, but do not meet the
requirements of a STACKED TOTE SET, at the end of AUTO.
A CONTAINER SET exists if any three (3) RECYCLING CONTAINERS are fully contained by the AUTO ZONE at the end of AUTO.

As for scoring, a tote set is 6 points, while a container set is 8.

So if a robot only pushes one tote to the auto zone, would the not receive any points since not all three are in the auto zone? And is each container placed in the auto zone worth 8 points, or does your alliance receive 8 points as long as one container is in the auto zone? If you received 8 points per container in auto zone, wouldn't that be heavily prioritizing the containers if three totes was worth 6, while three containers were worth 18? I feel as if it could be implying that each tote is worth two points, but it says points are awarded for tote sets, and tote sets is defined above. This being said, I am afraid that if it requires all three totes in the auto zone, it would make it a lot harder for simple box on wheels bots to score in auto other than the moving in a robot set, especially in qualification rounds when not all robots will be able to move in auto?

[cmrnpizzo14]

Correct, this year is more of an all or nothing autonomous point system.

[jijiglobe]

You get 6 points if and only if all 3 yellow totes are in the auto zone at the end of auto. The same goes for Container and Robot sets. In my mind this rule is clearly geared towards teams helping rookie box bots make a basic auto for mobility or to push game objects without actually forcing teams to do it.

[Canon reeves]

You get 6 points if and only if all 3 yellow totes are in the auto zone at the end of auto. The same goes for Container and Robot sets. In my mind this rule is clearly geared towards teams helping rookie box bots make a basic auto for mobility or to push game objects without actually forcing teams to do it.

It says a CONTAINER SET is when any recycling container is in the autozone, which is causing the main part of my confusion. Can you get multiple container sets since there are multiple Recycling Containers?

[alopex_rex]

The reason it says "all three" totes and "any three" recycling containers is because there are only three totes on your side of the field, while there are seven recycling containers you can (in theory) use: three next to the yellow totes and four on the step. So it says "any three" to indicate you get the points as long as there are at least three containers in the auto zone, but they don't have to be the three that start out next to the totes. In practice I highly doubt that the containers on the step will ever be use in autonomous, but because they are there the rules can't say "all three" recycling containers and have it make sense.

The scoring for recycling containers and totes works the same way: if you have three in the auto zone, you get the points (8 or 6).

[Iaquinto.Joe]

You are allowed to start the match between the auto zone and landfill zone. This would be the ideal location to attempt to grab one or more recycling cans from the step during autonomous and move it into the auto zone.

[Cyan]

I believe you are right, a total of 2 CONTAINER SETs should be possible in autonomous.
Remember that there are 3 CONTAINERs in each alliance zone, as well as 4 CONTAINERs on the step in the middle, for a maximum of 7 possible CONTAINERs for each side. This would mean that dragging the 3 CONTAINERs in your zone would be one CONTAINER SET, and dragging 3 containers from the step to the auto zone would be another. This would mean a total of 8 x 2 = 16 points could be accumulated from containers.

When I first saw the game, I had already thought that the alliance who first grabbed the CONTAINERs on the step would have a decent headstart. This is why I wanted my team to create an autonomous that would claim the game elements in the center for that extra point potential.

[Canon reeves]

The reason it says "all three" totes and "any three" recycling containers is because there are only three totes on your side of the field, while there are seven recycling containers you can (in theory) use: three next to the yellow totes and four on the step. So it says "any three" to indicate you get the points as long as there are at least three containers in the auto zone, but they don't have to be the three that start out next to the totes. In practice I highly doubt that the containers on the step will ever be use in autonomous, but because they are there the rules can't say "all three" recycling containers and have it make sense.

The scoring for recycling containers and totes works the same way: if you have three in the auto zone, you get the points (8 or 6).

That makes more sense, thank you.

[Canon reeves]

You are allowed to start the match between the auto zone and landfill zone. This would be the ideal location to attempt to grab one or more recycling cans from the step during autonomous and move it into the auto zone.

According to G7 you can't touch your auto zone or landfill?

[Cyan]

According to G7 you can't touch your auto zone or landfill?
G7 says that your robot cannot start in the LANDFILL or AUTO zones. However, there is some space between the zones that your robot can legally start in. You can see a visual in 2.1.5 of the manual.

[alopex_rex]

I believe you are right, a total of 2 CONTAINER SETs should be possible in autonomous.

Not quite. The rule is phrased so that there can only be one. If there are six recycling containers in the auto zone, you get 8 points because "a container set exists". There's no per-set scoring.

It would still be really cool to see a robot use one of the containers on the step in autonomous though.

[Cyan]

Not quite. The rule is phrased so that there can only be one. If there are six recycling containers in the auto zone, you get 8 points because "a container set exists". There's no per-set scoring.

It would still be really cool to see a robot use one of the containers on the step in autonomous though.
"A CONTAINER SET exists if any three (3) RECYCLING CONTAINERS are fully contained by the AUTO ZONE at the end of AUTO." - 3.1.2.1

I believe I get what you are saying, but I still think the wording is ambiguous. I say it is something we should leave for Q&A.

[Canon reeves]

G7 says that your robot cannot start in the LANDFILL or AUTO zones. However, there is some space between the zones that your robot can legally start in. You can see a visual in 2.1.5 of the manual.

Ah, thankyou, I missed that, I was thinking of the staging zone, and assumed that the autozone and landfill touched.

[ConnorAWD]

I might as well list all 4 ways to get auto points.

1. If all 3 robots are in the auto zone when the 15 seconds are over you get 4 points.

2. If 3 yellow totes are in the auto zone when the 15 seconds are over (and with no robots touching it) you get 6 points.

3. If at least 3 containers are in the auto zone when the 15 seconds are over (and no robots touching) you get 8 points.

4. If all 3 yellow totes are stacked in the auto zone when the 15 seconds are over( and no robots touching it) you get 20 points instead of the 6.

Hope that helped

[markmcgary]

I might as well list all 4 ways to get auto points.

1. If all 3 robots are in the auto zone when the 15 seconds are over you get 4 points.

2. If 3 yellow totes are in the auto zone when the 15 seconds are over (and with no robots touching it) you get 6 points.

3. If at least 3 containers are in the auto zone when the 15 seconds are over (and no robots touching) you get 8 points.

4. If all 3 yellow totes are stacked in the auto zone when the 15 seconds are over( and no robots touching it) you get 20 points instead of the 6.

Hope that helped

The "no robots touching" only applies to the STACKED TOTE SET (Your #4).

[Ubiquity]

It looks like there will be a lot of low scoring autonomous periods. I would say it would almost be impossible for a single 'uber' bot score a container set or tote stack in 15 seconds autonomously, but then I didn't think anyone would be able to score three balls high single handed last year. I think it wold be hard to have two robots in teleop grabbing three crates and stacking them in the autozone to do it in 15 seconds. Likewise If you were a container handler with a telescoping arm, even grabbing two containers from the step and moving them would be tough to do in 15 seconds. Ask yourself is it possible to do it in teleop in 15 seconds, before trying to do it in autonomous. The issue is the placement of crates and containers make it hard to get to either quickly.

But ---- you guys are all cleverer then me. I think the safest bet is to make sure you have a good 'move forward 12 feet strategy' that will work from any orientation, and share it with those rookie box bots that can only push a crate on a good day. One of the things that really annoyed me from last year were the number of teams that never even moved at all during autonomous.

[Joseph Smith]

In practice I highly doubt that the containers on the step will ever be use in autonomous

What makes you so sure? There are lots of threads discussing the tactical advantage of retreiving the containers from the step as quickly as possible.

[IronicDeadBird]

The q and a said you only get points for one container set

[Munchskull]

Would it be practical to have an autonomous that you program by driving it before hand and recording then having your robot essentialy replay that same drive in autonomous? If so then you could use the practice field to pull on the fly new autonomous programs based on what your team mates can do.

[Christopher149]

Would it be practical to have an autonomous that you program by driving it before hand and recording then having your robot essentialy replay that same drive in autonomous? If so then you could use the practice field to pull on the fly new autonomous programs based on what your team mates can do.

Technically it should work, but a lot of venues only have partial practice field elements, so you wouldn't have enough field to really try this out.

[Canon reeves]

Would it be practical to have an autonomous that you program by driving it before hand and recording then having your robot essentialy replay that same drive in autonomous? If so then you could use the practice field to pull on the fly new autonomous programs based on what your team mates can do.

Is this really a thing though? I'm not much of a programmer, but I think it would be pretty cool to have an autonomous that can record and repeat. Of course there could be variables that are different, but is it atleast possible?

[nighterfighter]

Is this really a thing though? I'm not much of a programmer, but I think it would be pretty cool to have an autonomous that can record and repeat. Of course there could be variables that are different, but is it atleast possible?

You would need a gyro and encoders, but yes.

Record encoder ticks on each wheel, in combination with the gyro, and have the robot follow that.

It wouldn't be easy, however, and you might be better off just doing it the normal way.

[Munchskull]

Is this really a thing though? I'm not much of a programmer, but I think it would be pretty cool to have an autonomous that can record and repeat. Of course there could be variables that are different, but is it atleast possible?

It is totally possible to do. I my self am not a program either but yesterday I brought it up with a mentor and they seemed to be keen on it.

[Canon reeves]

You would need a gyro and encoders, but yes.

Record encoder ticks on each wheel, in combination with the gyro, and have the robot follow that.

It wouldn't be easy, however, and you might be better off just doing it the normal way.

Ok, I knew it would involve a lot of sensors, but I could also see a pre programmed autonomous being optimized quicker than a driver could.

[nighterfighter]

Ok, I knew it would involve a lot of sensors, but I could also see a pre programmed autonomous being optimized quicker than a driver could.

I guess you *could* attempt it without any sort of feedback, but it wouldn't be accurate or precise.

You would have to record the the values being sent to the Talon/Jag/Victor (I.E. what value the motor.Set() command is recieving), and for how long each motor is receiving that command, then have your code emulate that exactly.

But the problem with doing that without feedback, is if I tell both my drive motors: motor1.set(1) and motor2.set(1) then wait for 1 second before telling them to stop, it will go a different distance every single time. There are a lot of factors that affect how fast/far the wheels will turn...the friction in the wheels, if the wheels are slipping, battery voltage, weight, phase of the moon, what you ate for breakfast...

That's why you need feedback, usually in the form of encoders and a gyro, to tell you how far you have actually gone. (And it might be a good idea to have non-powered follower wheels with encoders attached to them, rather than encoders on the driven wheels. If the driven wheels are slipping (turning but not actually driving the robot), your code will think it has gone farther than it actually has.)

If you want proof of that, write this simple autonomous.

lMotor.Set(1);
rMotor.Set(1);
Wait(2);
lMotor.Set(0);
rMotor.Set(0);

That should drive the robot "straight" for 2 seconds, then stop. (Of course, you might need to make one of those a negative value). Record how far the robot goes, and at what approximate angle. Now do that 5 times.

I'm sure each time will be a slightly different amount.

Now put in a freshly charged battery, and do it 5 times.

You now have 10 different results!

[Munchskull]

Ok, I knew it would involve a lot of sensors, but I could also see a pre programmed autonomous being optimized quicker than a driver could.

Depends on what you are doing. Complex three tote auto? Driver ghosting might be easier. Simple drive forward? Programing would be best.

[nighterfighter]

Depends on what you are doing. Complex three tote auto? Driver ghosting might be easier. Simple drive forward? Programing would be best.

Is 3 tote auto that much more complex than driving forward, though?

Depending on how you pick up the totes, it could be, but it is easy to drive the robot a certain distance, using encoders and a gyro...and we know exactly where the 3 totes are placed.

[BethMo]

Would it be practical to have an autonomous that you program by driving it before hand and recording then having your robot essentialy replay that same drive in autonomous?

My team did that one year.

[MorrisXX]

Do you need to have the starting recycling containers in the autozone for the points? Or could one of those containers come from the Step?

[BethMo]

Do you need to have the starting recycling containers in the autozone for the points? Or could one of those containers come from the Step?

Any 3 (or more) will do. Doesn't matter where they came from.

[RobLikesRobots]

It says a CONTAINER SET is when any recycling container is in the autozone, which is causing the main part of my confusion. Can you get multiple container sets since there are multiple Recycling Containers?

There are only 3 yellow totes and 3 recycling containers in the staging zone, thus only one opportunity for each type of set due to needing all three totes for a tote set and all three containers for a container set

[orangemoore]

The reason the wording of the CONTAINER SET is to allow teams to get the set by using the containers from the step. If they choose too.

[Munchskull]

My team did that one year.

How did it work?