Contested Containers

[Munchskull]

This year the red and blue alliance may not be competing directly against one another match by match, however the are still competing for the Containers in the center, how do you thing those four contested Container will affect the game?

Will the majority holder score highest 10%/20%/30% of the time?

How will these four Containers shape Recycle Rush?

[Rick Wagner]

The containers on the step will be the key to the game this year. I think many teams will have an autonomous mode to get them, rather than get the autonomous points.

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

Depending on how many robots are able to get containers in auto, we may even see The Container Agreement happening in non final matches. This would only really be a thing at champs if it happens at all.

[Munchskull]

That is what I am thinking. Part of my team (including me) wants a three tote auto however I am woundering whether the ability to grab the totes is going to be more important. Using my quick brain math if you pull the three tote auto off you get 20 points plus what ever your other teams can do most likely move so that would be a 24 pt auto. However is you could grab at least one Container you could get up to 30pt because you choose that instead. But that is with a six stack if you do a five stack it becomes a 26pt bonus and with a four stack it is a 22 pt bonus. Those are calculations done assuming you get a litter and I was not counting the 2 pt per Tote. So with out liter the profit drops down to, six stack= 24pt, five stack= 20pt, ect.

So my additional question is, should you go for 3 Totes during auto or the Containers?

[Rick Wagner]

For the top alliances and high scoring matches, the containers may prove to be the scarce resource. A weaker alliance against a strong alliance may find it beneficial to get the containers simply to deny them to the opposition.

That being said, getting containers in auto mode is not trivial. If totes are not moved out of the way, a long reach will be required.

[asid61]

One mentor suggested just a wedge sweeper mechanism to literally just wedge alll the upside down totes out of the way and throw all of the bins in the center onto your side. Because that's a passive component, it's definitely possible to have two or more of these robots on your team to grab as many bins as possible during auton.
Even though your seed is determined by your points, in elims the good teams will need more than three bins. Denying the bins to your opponent is pretty much a win, or at least a very severe blow, so being a second or third pick bot with a sweeper could work.

[wilderbuchanan]

Do you guys really think that that many Totes will be stacked. I mean the 30 at the feeder station plus 28 in the landfill. Thats 60 totes by itself. The time spent stacking all of those could be spent on stacking up to 7 recycling bins resulting in many more point. Also throw in the coopertition and i think that stacking 60 totes, unless a team develops some huge machine that can stack a tote a second etc, will be unlikely at most of the regional events. I do think that going in getting the recycling bins in autonomous could be very beneficial.

[Noudvanbrunscho]

My prediction of this game is that the Containers on the step are going to be very important in Saint Louis. I truly think that there are going to be teams who can get 2 or mabye even 4 Containers off the step during AUTO, and place them in the auto zone (those are worth points aswell!?). If your alliance has 7 Containers and your opponent only have 3, it's going to be very hard for them to beat you. Looking forward to see this strategy, but i think you won't see it in most regionals.

[RunawayEngineer]

Einstein is going to be decided by a race for the RCs in the middle.
At that level, stacking high is going to be commonplace, so they are going to be worth bundles of points. Also - teams at that level will run out of RCs every match. Between 6 high-caliber robots, the 10 most potent scoring items on the field will be scored every single match. The team who controls the most will win (a majority of the time).
Disallowing your opponent from using the most efficient scoring item alone is worth it - giving it to yourself is doubly worth it. Each one is worth potentially 6 points for the Litter score plus the height value - which is as much as 24. So there is 120 points in the middle of the field that could swing either way. Of course, not every one will be used to its maximum potential - but it is obvious to me that that many points is easily worth compromising other autonomous tasks.

[BERTEvan]

My team doesn't see that the containers on the step are crucial, due to the fact that games are based on points and not wins and losses. Can somebody give a detailed explanation of the importance of the step containers?

[SciBorg Dave]

During seeding matches the step can will not be important.
During elims very few teams will go for them.
When team reach worlds the further they go the more important they will become.

[Rick Wagner]

It's all about maximizing your point score. High points are high points whether at a regional or at Champs.

[IronicDeadBird]

It's all about maximizing your point score. High points are high points whether at a regional or at Champs.

I can't quote everything you said enough. The game here is resource management and it is so well designed that the resource management changes and adapts to the level of play. This game is a mixture of optimization of a task and short vs long term rewards. Burst out points up front? Let the points mature with multipliers? I hope you don't mind this is going to be thrown at a certain team I work with.

[asid61]

My team doesn't see that the containers on the step are crucial, due to the fact that games are based on points and not wins and losses. Can somebody give a detailed explanation of the importance of the step containers?

Some people on my team used that argument for some other stuff, and I think it's highly fallacious. If you allow every other team to get an extra 30 points, then you have 30 point less than everyone else. You can't just give your opponent points like that, or allow them to grab the higest-scoring items in the game.
Secondly, in elims, to advance you need to have more points than your opponent. Meaning if they can't get points, you are more likely to advance. This is where the can (and can denial) matter because a high-seeded teams with good scouting will see that you have a good can plucker.

I was honestly considering just a giant plastic plate with holes big enough for cans, that snapped down at the start of the match over the cans and pulled them in. Then you bring it back up and drive slowly and carefully while making small stacks of totes around the field, or pushing totes from the player station to the scoring zones. At the higher levels I fell that this would be a very useful strategy.

[Mr_D_Mentor]

What happens if your robot has an autonomous "can plucker" and you place your robot in front of a particular can prior to the match. Then a team on the opposing alliance places their robot in front of the same can with the intent of stealing it before your robot can. So you move your robot to another can, and the other team does the same, and so on. I think this is similar to the goalie placement last year, which was covered by a rule. Is this addressed in the rules this year?

[RunawayEngineer]

What happens if your robot has an autonomous "can plucker" and you place your robot in front of a particular can prior to the match. Then a team on the opposing alliance places their robot in front of the same can with the intent of stealing it before your robot can. So you move your robot to another can, and the other team does the same, and so on. I think this is similar to the goalie placement last year, which was covered by a rule. Is this addressed in the rules this year?

I noticed this gap in the rules, as well. Hopefully they will resolve it before it becomes a problem. This is a great Q+A submission.

[Caleb Sykes]

What happens if your robot has an autonomous "can plucker" and you place your robot in front of a particular can prior to the match. Then a team on the opposing alliance places their robot in front of the same can with the intent of stealing it before your robot can. So you move your robot to another can, and the other team does the same, and so on. I think this is similar to the goalie placement last year, which was covered by a rule. Is this addressed in the rules this year?

From section 5.1 of the game manual:
If order placement of ROBOTS matters to either or both ALLIANCES, the ALLIANCE must notify the Head REFEREE during setup for that MATCH. Upon notification, the Head REFEREE will require ALLIANCES to alternate placement of their ROBOTS, starting with the Red ALLIANCE.

[Mr_D_Mentor]

thanks

[Wayne TenBrink]

Getting control of the cans on the step quickly will be the key to seeding well in quals and winning in playoffs. Can grabbing mechanisms will evolve as the season progresses, and its going to look like the mini-bot arms race in 2011. Whatever is good enough in Week 1 won't be good enough as the season progresses. Good can grabbers will get copied, and new ones will be developed. Teams will use their 30lb. withholding build the latest and greatest. Bots will be broken and flipped as they perform an autonomous tug of war over contested barrels. It should be fun to watch.

[Munchskull]

That awkward moment when you are so busy with robots and school work that you forgot you started a thread. :D

[themccannman]

From section 5.1 of the game manual: From section 5.1 of the game manual:

Quote:
If order placement of ROBOTS matters to either or both ALLIANCES, the ALLIANCE must notify the Head REFEREE during setup for that MATCH. Upon notification, the Head REFEREE will require ALLIANCES to alternate placement of their ROBOTS, starting with the Red ALLIANCE.

That's interesting that they don't give the red alliance (the higher seed) the final pick on position, that could be a big deal.

Also, did anyone see anything in the rules about accidental field/game piece damage from tug-o-wars?

[dodar]

That's interesting that they don't give the red alliance (the higher seed) the final pick on position, that could be a big deal.

Also, did anyone see anything in the rules about accidental field/game piece damage from tug-o-wars?

I was thinking the same thing. I kind of felt this was thought of more as a qualification match thing where they just picked red.

But in terms of Elims, having red go first does seem a bit odd.

[Caleb Sykes]

I was thinking the same thing. I kind of felt this was thought of more as a qualification match thing where they just picked red.

But in terms of Elims, having red go first does seem a bit odd.

Is there a rule somewhere that states that the higher seeded alliance must be red in the playoffs? I have searched both the 2014 and the 2015 manuals and was unable to find anything like this.

[themccannman]

Is there a rule somewhere that states that the higher seeded alliance must be red in the playoffs? I have searched both the 2014 and the 2015 manuals and was unable to find anything like this.

It's likely under the tournament rules section. I just assumed it's the same since red alliance has been the higher seed for as long as I can remember.

[GaryVoshol]

I recall a Q&A that the method of deciding red/blue for playoffs has not been determined; they'll let us know.

[Caleb Sykes]

I recall a Q&A that the method of deciding red/blue for playoffs has not been determined; they'll let us know.

I found it:

Q28
Q. How will the Red and Blue alliances be determined in Playoff Matches? Since the Yellow TOTE starting positions are asymmetrical on the field for Red and Blue, we would like to know this in advance.

A. Good question! The alliance assignment has not been finalized. Once it's set, implemented, and tested, the Game Manual will be updated and we'll include notification in a Team Update.

I don't fully understand the context though, the yellow tote positions will always appear the same when looking out from the driver station, so I don't see how it would make any difference which alliance color your team has.

[Lil' Lavery]

During seeding matches the step can will not be important.
During elims very few teams will go for them.
When team reach worlds the further they go the more important they will become.

More or less this. These bins will only be a significant factor in a handful of playoffs matches prior to the championship event. At those very highest levels of play, they will be a huge deal. While we usually aim our design at elimination matches, we feared that designing our robot primarily around this capability (at the expense of other areas of gameplay) would not be a significant enough factor at our district events to be worth it. You have to qualify for those top levels of play before you can design a robot to win them.

[Mr. Lim]

I found it:



I don't fully understand the context though, the yellow tote positions will always appear the same when looking out from the driver station, so I don't see how it would make any difference which alliance color your team has.
The yellow totes starting positions are asymmetric if you choose not to place them on the field. I.e. they are behind the glass in the alliance station.

[Pollux]

The containers are pretty much a constraint on how many points you can score per match. If your alliance only has the three containers from your side, you lose out on the opportunity to cap four more stacks and get all the additional points from the containers. Meanwhile, the opposing alliance gains four containers, with a maximum of 120 more points (capping four additional six-stacks for 96 points plus the four noodles for 24 more). Even if they score significantly fewer points, they're still placing a constraint on how much you can score. And while matches aren't officially won, being down by 40 or more points each match is going to set you back significantly in qualifications.

[Abhishek R]

The containers are pretty much a constraint on how many points you can score per match. If your alliance only has the three containers from your side, you lose out on the opportunity to cap four more stacks and get all the additional points from the containers. Meanwhile, the opposing alliance gains four containers, with a maximum of 120 more points (capping four additional six-stacks for 96 points plus the four noodles for 24 more). Even if they score significantly fewer points, they're still placing a constraint on how much you can score. And while matches aren't officially won, being down by 40 or more points each match is going to set you back significantly in qualifications.

That's assuming an alliance in qualifications and possibly even playoffs is able to score more than three capped stacks. As stated by others in the thread, it really only matters when the alliances are very high powered and capable of scoring more than three capped full stacks in order to make a difference.

[Ginger Power]

That's assuming an alliance in qualifications and possibly even playoffs is able to score more than three capped stacks. As stated by others in the thread, it really only matters when the alliances are very high powered and capable of scoring more than three capped full stacks in order to make a difference.

Having the Recycling containers on your side also allows you to cap non complete stacks as well. If you are with alliance partners that aren't capable of making a stack higher than 3, you can still maximize your points by capping and noodling all of the stacks. In fact, at lower levels of competition it may be more efficient to make 6 capped stacks of 3 than 3 complete stacks. Stacks of 3 are a lot safer than stacks of 6 when you may or may not have faith in your alliance partners' stacking/driving ability. This would also give you higher potential pool noodle points. Having all of the RC's on your side is an advantage no matter how you look at it. The only question is whether or not it's worth your time to go after them at lower levels of play, or if your time is better spent stacking.

[Lil' Lavery]

Having the Recycling containers on your side also allows you to cap non complete stacks as well. If you are with alliance partners that aren't capable of making a stack higher than 3, you can still maximize your points by capping and noodling all of the stacks. In fact, at lower levels of competition it may be more efficient to make 6 capped stacks of 3 than 3 complete stacks. Stacks of 3 are a lot safer than stacks of 6 when you may or may not have faith in your alliance partners' stacking/driving ability. This would also give you higher potential pool noodle points. Having all of the RC's on your side is an advantage no matter how you look at it. The only question is whether or not it's worth your time to go after them at lower levels of play, or if your time is better spent stacking.

The recycling containers only become a scarce resource once both alliances attempts to win three of them from the center step. Six capped stacks (even shorter ones) will be a rare feat, and seeing a match where both alliances want six capped stacks will be loch ness monster rare (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1101430&postcount=28). For the vast majority of alliances, five containers (3 starting + 2 from step) will be more than adequate. Aside of finals matches against a powerhouse, the incentive to acquire more containers from the step than you can successfully cap is low*, generally lower than spending that time and effort scoring more points via totes.


*There are other hypothetical scenarios in which denying points may be beneficial, but they will prove to be even more rare

[Caleb Sykes]

The yellow totes starting positions are asymmetric if you choose not to place them on the field. I.e. they are behind the glass in the alliance station.

How interesting. I hadn't even noticed this. I can't remember an FRC game in recent history which has had an element that is assymetric like this.

This could have a marginal effect in qualification matches, but I'm still not quite seeing how it would have any effect in eliminations. The yellow totes can not be used for coopertition in elims, and all alliance members must stay behind the starting line in auto, so you wouldn't be able to load the yellow totes into any robots for auto. What am I missing?

[Ginger Power]

The recycling containers only become a scarce resource once both alliances attempts to win three of them from the center step. Six capped stacks (even shorter ones) will be a rare feat, and seeing a match where both alliances want six capped stacks will be loch ness monster rare (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1101430&postcount=28). For the vast majority of alliances, five containers (3 starting + 2 from step) will be more than adequate. Aside of finals matches against a powerhouse, the incentive to acquire more containers from the step than you can successfully cap is low*, generally lower than spending that time and effort scoring more points via totes.


*There are other hypothetical scenarios in which denying points may be beneficial, but they will prove to be even more rare

Also take into consideration that the 2 inside RC's are arguably easier to get than the outside RC's. Denying a team those forces them to take the effort of getting to the outside RC's if they require more than 3 for their strategy. I might just have high hopes but I believe it will not be unheard of for a qualification alliance to utilize more than 3 RC's. I believe having the functionality to retrieve the RC's from the step offers at least enough value to warrant the weight of the mechanism.

[Wayne TenBrink]

Acquiring the RC's from the step may not be all that critical in some qualification matches, but it will be imperative during playoffs. You may not put all of them to good use once you have them, but that is a better problem to have than needing them only to find that your opponents already got them. You don't need to have stacks of 5 or 6 totes to make it worth having them capped with RCs. You can't afford to wait until you are good enough to "need them" before you equip yourself to do it. The prudent thing is to show up equipped with a mechanism to get them - quickly.

[Gregor]

How interesting. I hadn't even noticed this. I can't remember an FRC game in recent history which has had an element that is assymetric like this.

The Kinect stations in 2012 were also asymmetric.

[Caleb Sykes]

The Kinect stations in 2012 were also asymmetric.

You're right, I should have remembered that since my team was one of the few that actually used the Kinect station.

[cglrcng]

Caleb Sykes said....

"....and all alliance members must stay behind the starting line in auto, so you wouldn't be able to load the yellow totes into any robots for auto. What am I missing?"
__________________________

Caleb Sykes....You need to read the Q&A immediately from Question 1, through to the most recent Question & Answer. During Auto Period...Drivers, need to stay behind the line, Coaches cannot touch any game pcs., but... Drivers and HP's can start moving things around (as long as those drivers do not cross the line of course), and HP's can cross even in AUTO into their HP Zones and start Tote Loading, just not Litter Loading. It should make for a very interesting Auto Period.

I see really close walls being built right around the HP's in their Zones during Auto. (Now figure out how to move 30 Totes, +any Yellows placed there, during Auto up nearer your 2/3 Human Player Zones). Oh, isn't FIELD RESET just going to love that every match.

READ THE RULES, read them again, read ALL the updates, delete all downloaded old Rules copies, & download a fresh copy of the rules after every set of updates (then read the rules again w/ the Updates applied), read every Q&A and refer back to questions as called out every time one is in the Q&A...Things constantly change. (Oh, and most importantly, forget everything you know from previous games!) Then ask Q&A questions if necessary, or something cannot be understood.

Good Luck!

[Munchskull]

Caleb Sykes said....



Caleb Sykes....You need to read the Q&A immediately from Question 1, through to the most recent Question & Answer. During Auto Period...Drivers, need to stay behind the line, Coaches cannot touch any game pcs., but... Drivers and HP's can start moving things around (as long as those drivers do not cross the line of course), and HP's can cross even in AUTO into their HP Zones and start Tote Loading, just not Litter Loading. It should make for a very interesting Auto Period.

Could you site which rule/Q&A question that allows you to move totes onto the field in Auto. I am having trouble finding it.

[pntbll1313]

Caleb Sykes....You need to read the Q&A immediately from Question 1, through to the most recent Question & Answer. During Auto Period...Drivers, need to stay behind the line, Coaches cannot touch any game pcs., but... Drivers and HP's can start moving things around (as long as those drivers do not cross the line of course), and HP's can cross even in AUTO into their HP Zones and start Tote Loading, just not Litter Loading. It should make for a very interesting Auto Period.

Good Luck!

cglrcng, I am fairly positive that Caleb has read, and reread, and rereread all Q&A's. I have also read, and reread all Q&A's and updates. Could you please site the Q&A you are referring to? This one (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/97/i-understand-that-totes-and-litter-in-the-human-player-zone-are-able-to-be-moved-during-autonomous-however-are-they-allowed-to-enter-the-field-in-autonomous-from-the-loading-zone-as-in-are-we-allow) directly refutes what you are saying.

[itsjustmrb]

Q27 Q. Can a human player move litter or totes during Auto? If yes, can human players cause litter or totes to enter a human player zone during Auto as long as said player doesn't cross the starting line?

FRC0095 on 2015-01-07 | 35 Followers
A. There are no rules that prevent HUMAN PLAYERS from moving TOTES or LITTER once a MATCH begins (even in AUTO) or moving TOTES or LITTER in to the HUMAN PLAYER Zone, provided no one from the DRIVE TEAM crosses the STARTING LINE.

[pntbll1313]

Q27 Q. Can a human player move litter or totes during Auto? If yes, can human players cause litter or totes to enter a human player zone during Auto as long as said player doesn't cross the starting line?

FRC0095 on 2015-01-07 | 35 Followers
A. There are no rules that prevent HUMAN PLAYERS from moving TOTES or LITTER once a MATCH begins (even in AUTO) or moving TOTES or LITTER in to the HUMAN PLAYER Zone, provided no one from the DRIVE TEAM crosses the STARTING LINE.

Thanks itsjustmrb, I think that's the Q&A that confused cglrcng. HUMAN PLAYERS can push TOTES or LITTER in to the HUMAN PLAYER Zone, they just can't physically cross the STARTING LINE themselves. Since per the glossary, the DRIVE TEAM consists of "one (1) COACH, two (2) DRIVERS, and one (1) HUMAN PLAYER," and Q27 specifically says "no one from the DRIVE TEAM crosses the STARTING LINE."

[Dan Petrovic]

Also take into consideration that the 2 inside RC's are arguably easier to get than the outside RC's.

They are considerably easier to acquire. For starters, they are close enough to one another such that a robot will be able to secure them simultaneously without a complicated (and likely flimsy) extension. Second, there is a "lane" of open carpet leading directly to the Step, presumably to make it more likely for teams to earn Coopertition points.

[JesseK]

I've had to re-iterate this to the veteran mentors on my team, since they're so used to the frame of mind that a low-scoring 'win' could be successful in prior years. That mindset won't even make it out of QF's this year.

10 Quals, 2 QF's, 3SF's, 2-3 Finals = 18 matches potentially at the average event.
The competitiveness of the containers isn't what matters for 15 / 18 matches, only the raw score of our own alliance. If the "opponents" want to get those containers to just keep them away from us, let them waste their time. We'll just stack our 3 RC's on a bigger stack with a less cluttered field.

It should really be emphasized that an entire robot should not focus on a strategy that only plays out 16% of the time for only (on average 6 / 50) 12% of teams. The strategy only works before finals if the alliance uses those containers. Given some of the discussions I've seen/heard, there is so little emphasis on what to do after the RC's are acquired, or even where to put them so they're out of the way of stacking.

Getting to the containers on the step in a controlled manner and getting a single container from the step in a controlled manner is much more valuable long-term than something that "wrangles" 4 at a time back to the alliance all willy-nilly.

[bowmanb]

Our bot can already build a stack of 6 from the load station as fast as our human can feed them. We are definitely NOT an elite team, so I see stacking from the chutes as being a lot faster than this discussion is accounting for. If just one of our partners can handle the RC bins (pick them up, get them noodled and place them on a short stack) then we will be able to use all the bins we can get.

[JesseK]

Our bot can already build a stack of 6 from the load station as fast as our human can feed them. We are definitely NOT an elite team, so I see stacking from the chutes as being a lot faster than this discussion is accounting for. If just one of our partners can handle the RC bins (pick them up, get them noodled and place them on a short stack) then we will be able to use all the bins we can get.

I think the more consistent scenario for this RC-centric strategy is the 5-stack, given the 6 stacks of 5 behind the glass and partners who are more likely to be able to stack on a 5 than they are on a 6.

I can say that reliably controlling a RC by only touching its lowest 6" (for the 6-stack) is pretty tough after the RC is in the air. Doable, but tough. I know that our prototypes have been much more reliable if they're closer to the RC's center of mass, which is about 16" off the ground. It's still early though.

[asid61]

I've had to re-iterate this to the veteran mentors on my team, since they're so used to the frame of mind that a low-scoring 'win' can be successful this year. That mindset won't even make it out of QF's.

10 Quals, 2 QF's, 3SF's, 2-3 Finals = 18 matches potentially at the average event.
The competitiveness of the containers isn't what matters for 15 / 18 matches, only the raw score of our own alliance. If the "opponents" want to get those containers to just keep them away from us, let them waste their time. We'll just stack our 3 RC's on a bigger stack with a less cluttered field.

It should really be emphasized that an entire robot should not focus on a strategy that only plays out 16% of the time for only (on average 6 / 50) 12% of teams. The strategy only works before finals if the alliance uses those containers. Given some of the discussions I've seen/heard, there is so little emphasis on what to do after the RC's are acquired, or even where to put them so they're out of the way of stacking.

Getting to the containers on the step in a controlled manner and getting a single container from the step in a controlled manner is much more valuable long-term than something that "wrangles" 4 at a time back to the alliance all willy-nilly.

But you don't need the most points to win; you need only be picked by a high-seeded alliance. If you design both mechanisms, you can swap them out if other teams are better at grabbing the cans than you, and stack normally.
Denying points is important, as ultimately, it comes down to elims.

[MrForbes]

In my limited experience winning regionals, it's helpful to either have the highest scoring robot, or to be indispensable to the team with the highest scoring robot.

We don't look at what it takes to be picked...we look at what it takes to be the team making the first pick.

[bowmanb]

I think the more consistent scenario for this RC-centric strategy is the 5-stack, given the 6 stacks of 5 behind the glass and partners who are more likely to be able to stack on a 5 than they are on a 6.


We are thinking that making two 3-stacks then placing a noodled bin on one and then placing that stack on the second one for 42 points is a viable strategy. We are working toward optimizing tote-stacking and bin handling so that we can do either/both.

[Colin Small]

But you don't need the most points to win; you need only be picked by a high-seeded alliance. If you design both mechanisms, you can swap them out if other teams are better at grabbing the cans than you, and stack normally.
Denying points is important, as ultimately, it comes down to elims.

Because not only are you denying the other alliance the container, you're getting the container for your team. Using them is up to you, but you're still denying the alliance members on the other team those points. My reasoning may be wrong, but points the other alliance doesn't score means more points they'd be farther away from you in the standings or by less points they'd pull away from you.

[cglrcng]

I will make a set of prediction(s) now. (I would have/could made this prediction on game release day 1 easily also).

A team that can quickly snatch 2~4 RC's from the step in Auto, time after time (say 80~90% or better), (or 2 in Auto & can get to the Robot Set position, & 2 more immediately when teleop begins, if they are still left there of course after the first 15 seconds...very doubtful at least 25%~50% of the time, as I will also predict now), WILL BE playing on both Einstein fields this year.

In fact....You can be the lowest actual scoring personal single robot on your Alliance, in qualifying, round to round, every single time or event. BUT, if you can guarantee at least 2 or more RC's off the shelf in Auto onto your side of the field, and more, on a consistant basis, and still stack (or even push around stacks of), a few Totes, cap a few Stacks w/ litter loaded RC's, upright RC's that have fallen over (~THIS is really important also), handle the RC's to get the litter in them at the human station, your robot will be "worth its weight in gold" to ANY alliance in the Playoffs or at Champs IF teams are scouting properly. (Great INBOUNDING STRAIGHT THROUGH ROBOTS last year were worth their weight in gold also, though they really didn't do that much as far as scoring points personally themselves...They were ALLIANCE COMPLEMENTARY, and very necessary to score & win). They helped the High Scorer super shooter, shoot faster and gain more points.

Another prediction here, they (THE SUPER Shelf RC Capture Bots), will also score in the top 1/3 of all QPA's more often than not also. Denying possible points to the opposition (and allowing your alliance the opportunity to use any and all of said stolen/snatched RC's as "HUGE points multiplyers" on any stack of grey totes from 1~6 on a scoring platform will often mean more than just the match)...It will always equal YOUR ALLIANCE more/higher points possibillities, while also denying higher possible points to the opposition ALLIANCE. (Doublemint Gum!)

I will also predict, that HUGE AUTO and Tele-op tug of wars will no doubt happen often, and RC Snatchers will go through more than a few actual repairs before the season is over...The more robust the Robot Shelf RC Snatchers are, the better they will fare. The RC Lids...Not so much. (I would be ordering more than a few extra lids for those RC's if I were preparing fields for FIRST!) They can (And Should), be ordered separately.

Storage of the RC's once captured 2 X 2 preferably, is rather easy, then grab them one by one, take to human player station, get loaded w/ litter, drop on any 1 grey tote or higher stack on the platform(s) (that would score it no matter what), any elevator or forklift loader can lift the totes and Litter loaded RC onto a higher stack later. Early on until stacks start, they could also be loaded and stored right in front of the player station glass momentarily only in the middle (careful there though, you wouldn't want to waste those very important points multipliers).

Last prediction....The Build for Playoffs/Champs/Any Q round "SUPER SHELF RC Snatcher" (Will not be in the slightest ever overlooked, they will be up front and on display just as much as any 3 Yellow Tote Auto Stacker, or 4 Tote Shelf Stacker, though they won't need to be as accurate, ever...As, on your side of the shelf/field, is all that is necessary (In the Auto Zone BETTER). But, also clean up the messes you make too!)....They also Would "NOT BE" A 3rd. pick, they would be a second pick, and possibly an Alliance Captain & a picker.

If your Alliance very often has 5~7 of those RC's avail. on your side to use, you will use them more, you will score higher more often...You will be in the top 10~15 anywhere after 10 Q rounds...Almost anyone playing this game this year will be able to stack Totes & drive I certainly hope.

The much more rare (and almost as equally important), utility bot that I will also predict, will be the one that can lift & rotate / or right a Tote that is not rightside up (those upside down nasty ones will be the very worst, and IT will happen more than just what is already on the field to begin with I think).

Now, the real moral question becomes (for those daring to choose to go that route), when faced w/ a null / or extra Q round (that rare event where you cannot gain qualifying average points, but do still play a Q match). Do you use that Shelf RC steal that round, or not? (It is a rare time when helping your actual Alliance partners to gain a higher QPA, can possibly actually hurt your own teams actual Q position). Does not seem right though does it?

WELCOME to a nuance of no more Win/Loss/Tie, & the new QP Average scoring dilemma.
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Lastly....If you have not done so already. Label all your RC's/Totes/ & Noodles that you may be planning on taking to competitions / practices, etc. w/ your Team #'s immediately. (I can see many taking them to practice fields etc., and losing them very easily). If they are pre-marked now, it will be much easier to determine your personal ownership later. (It would sure be nasty to load those up those practice game pcs. w/ stuff and take them into the venues, then not have those storage containers when you went to pack up again at the end of the event). LOL.:yikes:

[cglrcng]

Were I building personally a "Super Shelf RC Snatching Bot" it would be a utilitarian Tote Stacker, RC Handler/RC righter/tall capper (I'd be asking my Alliance partners to work together if possible to build a 4 High Tote wall on the far/left platform first using everything they can reach from the landfill first and the right Human Station (please allow me to work from the left human station as I will store RC's along the left wall and center glass). Please lock them (Totes no more than 4 high), in tight together, and push them tight into the backstop as a wall~This will be key to later capped wall stability!

(I will concentrate on nothing but snatching 2~4 RC's, then righting all of them, loading them with litter, then stacking an RC on 2 Totes and capping the stack~One on every other 6 high stack from the left first/far platform, 2+RC+Litter, 2, 2+RC+Litter, 2, 2+RC+Litter, Etc. (once the far platform is finished ~THE FAR LEFT MONEY PLATFORM THAT IS....NOBODY dares goes near it please! 5 RC's capped easily fit a tight stacked wall, so 10 Totes Wide X 6 Tall=60 Totes+5 RC's+5 Litters)...While they build out the near platform wall last 4 high from the landfill and the other human station backstop first again (one should also push all the upside down totes to the right side of the field early if you cannot right them at least, before building that left wall too much, so they can be used as the lower layer pushed into place if necessary, on the right near platform as the very bottom layer). The RC Snatch Bot (or whoever is actually closest and fastest), should deliver the Yellow Totes to the Shelf and cap/stack co-op if possible.

I work on using up the balance of those RC's capping the remaining stacks on the close right wall. (Key is to get the multiplyers on the walls ASAP on top of at least 1 or more totes).

If there is still time left on the closer right platform, one bot can lift from one side and allow others to carefully slide totes underneath your shorter capped stacks, then lower carefully, and all back away, again carefully before that nasty buzzer sounds). Alliance Coach giving a LOUD 5 second countdown.

Risking moving around those possible remaining floor litter after 2 walls are built is points/pound foolish if it could possibly take down the walls. (Minus 4 for plus 1, is nothing compared to knocking down huge stacks of points!)

In the end capping 7 stacks (5 FL +2 CR Platforms), is not out of the question. Empty the Landfill first w/ 2~3 bots, then allowing the RC Bot to use the closest HP Station. Then down to only the left HP Station. Then once that left/far platform is finished (one bot in right side of landfill, 1 at right station as RC bot finishes up capping using left HP station only.

Well, there is a strategy theory anyway.

[cglrcng]

Do you guys really think that that many Totes will be stacked. I mean the 30 at the feeder station plus 28 in the landfill. Thats 60 totes by itself. The time spent stacking all of those could be spent on stacking up to 7 recycling bins resulting in many more point. Also throw in the coopertition and i think that stacking 60 totes, unless a team develops some huge machine that can stack a tote a second etc, will be unlikely at most of the regional events. I do think that going in getting the recycling bins in autonomous could be very beneficial.

There is a maximum possibillity of up to 40 Totes for each (one side steals or captures the whole shelf, though rarely will that occur I would think), side in the landfill and 30 outside of the field (=70 possible total Grey Totes for 1 side, which would leave the other only 58 Tote Max., or some combination thereof) + a maximum of 7 RC's at the beginning of the game.

(Stealing or Capturing from the shelf all of both RC's and all the Grey Totes), is the smartest thing to attempt to do. 3 Robots building 6 high capped stacks will be fairly fast as many can stack locally in different areas, and deliver far more than 1 tote per trip. (One consistant tightly packed scoring platform wall 6 High w/ every other 6 High stack capped w/ an RC =at least 60 Totes+5 RC's+5 Litter for just 1 wall. There is another scoring platform to fill yet.

You just did not account for the other 12 Grey contested Totes also on the shelf, in your formula above. As more and more practice progresses, stacking will become second nature. And working together will become first nature. Stack, deliver stacks, someone backs into and packs the wall towards the backstop, cap the stack. Off to stack more. Tight locked in walls will be the big very stable winners!

There will be plenty of bots that can stack 3~5 high w/ an RC cap and deliver them to cap the shorter built tight packed stacks. A 1~2 high Tote Stack w/ an RC+Litter cap is very stable. Easy to cap an existing 4~5 high tight packed Tote stack on the platform without having to grapple that last
3" of the bottom of the RC and lift into place last. Lifting a short stack without driving anywhere will allow others from the other side to bottom feed in easily. There are many ways to work together to build those walls. Those that do work together well, will be rewarded highly.

Building a tight wall will require you to cap every other stack maximum though, not every stack, as the RC's are much wider at the tops than the bottoms.

[Jarridj4009]

I think the more consistent scenario for this RC-centric strategy is the 5-stack, given the 6 stacks of 5 behind the glass and partners who are more likely to be able to stack on a 5 than they are on a 6.

I can say that reliably controlling a RC by only touching its lowest 6" (for the 6-stack) is pretty tough after the RC is in the air. Doable, but tough. I know that our prototypes have been much more reliable if they're closer to the RC's center of mass, which is about 16" off the ground. It's still early though.

Our robot still needs a lot of upgrades to speed, accuracy, and grip ability, but so far we have successfully stacked a RC on a stack of 6 crates fairly easily even without any automated levels. I think teams that planned to do this from the start won't have any problems.

[JesseK]

Our robot still needs a lot of upgrades to speed, accuracy, and grip ability, but so far we have successfully stacked a RC on a stack of 6 crates fairly easily even without any automated levels. I think teams that planned to do this from the start won't have any problems.

Video speaks louder than words :D. Really I'm impressed though; it was a difficult thing to do, and takes a bit of specialization to pull off. More seriously, you may want to follow this (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/338/this-is-a-follow-up-to-q139-weve-also-seen-several-questions-from-the-perspective-of-a-78-tall-robot-say-the-front-set-of-a-robots-wheels-and-the-robots-tallest-point-are-on-the-platform-whil) Q&A question. I only thought of it when perusing the other Q&A's, then wondered if our robot was over 76" under certain circumstances. Turns out we're ok regardless of the ruling, but I get the impression that other teams may not be.

In order to maintain compliance with [G22], and to get a RC onto a 6-stack (~70.1" floor-top) on the floor, the robot must maintain grip on the bottom 8" of the RC. If the robot remains on the floor and the 6-stack is on the platform, the robot must maintain grip on the bottom 6" of the RC. Depending on the answer to the Q&A above, and depending on the type/geometry of the lift, if the robot ever intends to drive over the platforms each of these two numbers may be decreased by about 2".

[pntbll1313]

Video speaks louder than words :D. Really I'm impressed though; it was a difficult thing to do, and takes a bit of specialization to pull off. More seriously, you may want to follow this (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/338/this-is-a-follow-up-to-q139-weve-also-seen-several-questions-from-the-perspective-of-a-78-tall-robot-say-the-front-set-of-a-robots-wheels-and-the-robots-tallest-point-are-on-the-platform-whil) Q&A question.

Doesn't the blue box under G22 specifically say that it is OK to be higher than 6'6" from the floor when on the scoring platform? That's how I've been reading it.

For reference, the height restriction matches the height of the ALLIANCE WALL. However, it is expected that ROBOT that are on a SCORING PLATFORM may actually be slightly taller than the ALLIANCE WALL due to the elevation of the SCORING PLATFORM. This is permitted and not a violation of G22.
An example of a strategic violation of G22 would be intentionally extending above the height restriction in an effort to complete a scoring action.