View Full Version : 3 tote auto probability poll
llamadon
08-01-2015, 22:03
So there has been a running debate on our team. One of our high rated priorities is a three tote auto. We deemed that even if it is not accomplished, having a robot designed to do so (as in have qualities that would be required for the task. Quick tote stacking, good control of stack totes etc.) would be a competitive robot. Now some of our team members ranging from freshman to senior have deemed it impossible off the bat (dangerous to do as we deemed it a priority as a team.) The problem is that these claims are just based on theory, not fact. ( I guess most of design is theory, but impossible is a word not to be used lightly.)
My real question for you guys is what do you think? Is a three tote auto worth doing? Would it be an accomplish-able task for a relatively experienced team? Or is it really as impossible as some have said? Please provide specific situations, or examples walking through your reasoning for either view point.
I used to instead of too. Ma bad.
Nothing's impossible if you don't know it can't be done
Nothing is impossible
My opinion is not that it is impossible--after all, the totes are in known positions, and it should be highly possible to deal with the recycling bins in the way--but that it is HIGHLY difficult, and more particularly for only having 15 seconds to work with.
I do think that we will see AT LEAST one alliance attempt and succeed, particularly at high levels... but there will be many failures, and even more that do not attempt it.
Here is my reasoning:
1) Totes are not easy to stack. (Easier than '03... but that's not saying much.)
2) The totes are spread far apart, and then must be taken over or around an obstacle to score. This means a high-speed motion is necessary.
In order to do it successfully, 1 robot should do it. The other two need to get the rest of the cans out of the way, right away. That robot will need: a robust and insanely good bin alignment device (BAD), a quick stacker, a fast drive that is controllable, tracks straight, and turns on a dime, AND some luck and coordination.
I don't think it will be too uncommon. I expect most winning alliances will at least come close to it. We've seen teams do much harder tasks in auto the last few years. Some of the amazing frisbee codes and 254's auto last year come to mind.
faust1706
08-01-2015, 22:53
For reference on what teams have done in autonomous:
2011: 3 uber tubes - 15 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTs3b2w_GSw
2 uber tube on Einstein
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INpQQvupT3g
2012: 6 ball autonomous (though it required help) - 15 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwLzZ2wYA_A
2013: So many different autonomous routines, but let's stick with titanium pulling out the 7 disk autonomous week 1. -15 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfXP3yKdm0c
2014: 3 ball autonomous on Einstein by the poofs - 15 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzvnSapnzBA
For reference on what teams have done in autonomous:
2014: 3 ball autonomous on Einstein by the poofs - 15 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzvnSapnzBA
It was 10 seconds, but who's counting? ;)
More seriously, there are a number of ways a team could approach it, but all of them are probably much harder than the analogies from previous years due to the difficult nature of stacking.
Teams could drive a specialized path to pick up all three totes without getting knocked around by the cans, with some going forwards and backwards and forwards again. This would be compareable to a 3 tube autonomous from 2011 done by a single robot, or single team doing a 9 disc auto in 2013 (which I think only happened in labs). This requires one team to do a ton of programming work, and often comes down to luck in terms of effectiveness.
A second team could move two of the containers into the auto zone allowing for a clear line to pick up all three totes. This could be comparable to the 2012 feeding autos or our auto from 2014, where partners were set up in a special way to work with the team that did the scoring. This could require some programming assistance to the assistant bot, but could be feasible during elimination rounds
One team would take two totes, and second coordinates to stack the third one in a common location. This would be similar to what strong 2011 alliances did. This would require two teams to do a solid amount of work beforehand, and luck that both teams have systems so that they can place their bins in the same location
This list is definitely not exhaustive, but these are some strategies that I thought of using previous years as inspirations. These strategies, like any strategy, should be considered using cost-benefit analysis.
The 3 tote stack in autonomous will happen, but it won't be common. It's not just a difficult technical problem of how to accomplish it, there's also the opportunity cost of the tote and container sets that could have been scored. It seems like most 3 tote autos are going to be herculean efforts by one robot while the others "stay out of the way", and will preclude the much simpler autonomous of everyone drive forward with a tote and/or container. If the 3 tote stack fails you don't get 20 points for it, but you also miss out on 6 points for a tote set if the totes fail to make it to the auto zone, and you likely miss out on an 8 point container set because the robot didn't drag the container with it.
In short, if I have a fairly high confidence level that my alliance can drive straight and push some containers, I'm not sure I want to risk losing 6/8/14 points on a higher risk maneuver.
Skyehawk
08-01-2015, 23:45
Hello 2169! greetings from 876.
Here are my two bits on 3 tote auto:
The GDC has yet to give an impossible task. It wouldn't surprise me if the GDC has a robot or two made already that can accomplish this task, just so they know that it isn't impossible.
It will not surprise me when I see robots accomplishing three tote auto. FRC teams always surprise with ingenuity. We thought that a three uber-tube auto was improbable back in 2011 (team 233 comes to mind). The additional challenge of dealing with diverse game pieces will lead to some interesting autonomous routines, I am interested to see what you come up with.
- See you at Northern Lights!
I think the question is really the value. Elite teams don't do things because they are difficult; they do them because they are valuable. I can think of at least two other things that can be done in autonomous that are of much greater value than 20 points. It's not that is be surprised to see someone accomplish the task this year; it's that I'd be surprised to see a team that does it make it to Einstein. Or at least I'd be surprised to see an Einstein team DO it at Einstein.
Chris is me
09-01-2015, 00:49
We will never see a multiple robot three tote stacking autonomous. Quite frankly, I don't think there is an event in FRC where three teams have such consistent, precise, customizable autonomy.
I believe that it is possible for a single robot to do this task. However, the requirements to complete this task are quite the tall order:
The robot needs to be able to acquire a tote, from an off-center orientation, reliably and consistently in less than two seconds.
The robot needs to be able to move those totes in stacking position while driving to the next tote.
While I don't think a holonomic drivetrain is REQUIRED to complete the autonomous mode, it is a very big advantage for completing this specific task in order to avoid the bins if partners cannot move them (which they won't, most of the time).
The robot needs to be able to accurately track its own position through multiple twists and turns.
However, the value of this 3 tote auto is if anything understated. It is worth far more than just 20 points, for one simple reason - a completed three tote auto is a nearly completed coopertition stack. A team who has completed, or nearly completed, the tote autonomous can place the coopertition stack in just a few seconds, rather than taking 20-30 seconds to stack their own set of three. All that is needed of the other alliance is for a single alliance member to place a single tote on the step and that's essentially 60 points in autonomous + 10 seconds of teleop.
The task is very difficult, but I believe it has enough of an impact on qualification matches that teams will design their entire robots around completing this task, and that we will see on average 1-2 teams per event complete it. Not every event will have a completed three stack autonomous, not even close, but it won't be unheard of. A little less common than the 2012 triple balance.
themccannman
09-01-2015, 01:34
Absolutely, I'm going to be surprised if you don't see at least one three tote auto at every regional.
[LIST=1]
However, the value of this 3 tote auto is if anything understated. It is worth far more than just 20 points, for one simple reason - a completed three tote auto is a nearly completed coopertition stack. A team who has completed, or nearly completed, the tote autonomous can place the coopertition stack in just a few seconds, rather than taking 20-30 seconds to stack their own set of three. All that is needed of the other alliance is for a single alliance member to place a single tote on the step and that's essentially 60 points in autonomous + 10 seconds of teleop.
My thoughts exactly. As with FRC games of late, time is money, so while you may not cash in a lot on the initial auto points, you won't have to spend so much time later in the match. On its own, meh, but with the time saving, well worth it.
In order to do it successfully, 1 robot should do it. The other two need to get the rest of the cans out of the way, right away. That robot will need: a robust and insanely good bin alignment device (BAD), a quick stacker, a fast drive that is controllable, tracks straight, and turns on a dime, AND some luck and coordination.
Who said anything about turning? :rolleyes:
MrJohnston
09-01-2015, 02:05
Any strong robot whose primary function is to pick up and stack totes should be able to stack the three autonomous totes: Consider: you have three totes placed precisely and predictably. You can place your robot in an ideal location and you can arrange with your alliance partners to go whereever. If you can quickly pick-up and stack totes, this task should be something the programmers can handle.... The real question is, besides stacking the three totes, what *else* can you do?
No, we don't have a robot yet. We are building a base and just got a prototyping group assigned this evening for our second manipulator. Our first manipulator has been in the prototyping phase for a couple of days, but the design not yet complete. However, picking up totes and stacking them very quckly with a bin on top is our focus. Once we have built the devices and having them working, we'll work on the autonomous programming......
Any strong robot whose primary function is to pick up and stack totes should be able to stack the three autonomous totes: Consider: you have three totes placed precisely and predictably. You can place your robot in an ideal location and you can arrange with your alliance partners to go whereever. If you can quickly pick-up and stack totes, this task should be something the programmers can handle.... The real question is, besides stacking the three totes, what *else* can you do?
No, we don't have a robot yet. We are building a base and just got a prototyping group assigned this evening for our second manipulator. Our first manipulator has been in the prototyping phase for a couple of days, but the design not yet complete. However, picking up totes and stacking them very quckly with a bin on top is our focus. Once we have built the devices and having them working, we'll work on the autonomous programming......
All I'll say is that driving to specific points on the field multiple times without fail is a lot easier for a person to do than a chunk of code (and will most likely require non-KoP sensors on the bot specifically for this purpose).
MrJohnston
09-01-2015, 02:18
All I'll say is that driving to specific points on the field multiple times without fail is a lot easier for a person to do than a chunk of code (and will most likely require non-KoP sensors on the bot specifically for this purpose).
In our programmers I trust.
I'm not the technical guru, but I have seen what our programmers can do when given a good machine and time. Our team's best robot ever was two years ago... They gave it the ability to, barring defense, run an entire match autonomously. It was very cool.
sanddrag
09-01-2015, 02:41
There will be more than one game in which the maximum amount of autonomous points is scored. That is all.
Tem1514 Mentor
09-01-2015, 08:22
Nothing is impossible
It just takes longer :rolleyes:
MrForbes
09-01-2015, 08:26
The obvious way to make sure the CONTAINERS are out of the way as you collect TOTES, is to also collect all three CONTAINERS before your robot heads over to the AUTONOMOUS ZONE.
Rare week one, common by week five.
A 3 tote stack is easy. As a captain, pick a partner who can get the 2 RB's out of the way. Or demonstrate on the practice field that you can get the 3 tote stack if a partner gets the 2 RB's out of the way.
notmattlythgoe
09-01-2015, 10:12
I told my subteam that I'm not going to the competitions if we don't do it.
wajirock
09-01-2015, 10:18
Creating a stacked tote set in auto by yourself seems fairly feasible. Since all three auto totes are in the same position in every math, you could have your robot strafe left or right and it picks up the totes when it detects the reflective tape. Creating a tote seems much more difficult and is worth far less points.
wesbass23
09-01-2015, 10:40
I noticed you guys are attending Wisconsin this year, maybe you should avoid perfecting a 3 tote autonomous until after Wisconsin ;)
faust1706
09-01-2015, 10:40
What I foresee on einstein: robot one does a 3 tote autonomous, the other two robots stack up 3 gray totes on the step, and all 3 robots getting the points for being in the autonomous zone as well.
I actually don't see this as being too hard depending on how you carry the totes.
One example would be to start next to t1 between the tote and center step.
Pick up and place on TOP of the bot.
Roll in front of t2, index t1 up and pick up t2.
Roll to t3, index t1/t2 up and pick up t3.
If you pick up from the side of the bot you don't have to worry about going around anything.
I think a lot of teams will actually find fairly simple ways to get these points.
phurley67
09-01-2015, 11:06
At Einstein, I would expect one robot doing the 3 tote auton, while the other two are trying to get all of the recycling containers on the step.
At top levels of play, getting 3 of the four recycling containers from the step, will pretty much ensure your victory.
What I foresee on einstein: robot one does a 3 tote autonomous, the other two robots stack up 3 gray totes on the step, and all 3 robots getting the points for being in the autonomous zone as well.
you and I have very different visions of what we foresee on einstein.
1 robot 3 tote stack (brings 1 bin with them)
1 robot grabs 2 bins from step (bring second with them back to auto zone)
1 robot grabs 2 bins from step (bring second with them back to auto zone)
- keep in mind, the robots grabbing from the step will basically be racing against the opposite alliance trying to do essentially the exact same thing...
phurley67
09-01-2015, 11:19
you and I have very different visions of what we foresee on einstein.
Really? it sounds almost exactly the same, except I did not have the tote stacker grabbing a recycling container for good measure -- which is a very good idea, as I agree the whole match is largely about the recycling containers on the step and it will be interesting to the inevitable autonomous tug of war.
EDIT: oops I thought you were replying to me -- oops again.
weaversam8
09-01-2015, 11:29
Personally, I think that it is possible. Our team started working on vision code on the way back from Kickoff, and we have code ready to test before the robot drives. We will be putting together our base Saturday, and programming can start working on auto before we even have a device to grab the totes. As long as teams manage their priorities and make best use of their time, I see this happening plenty.
Absolutely, I'm going to be surprised if you don't see at least one three tote auto at every regional.
I agree. I'll even put odds on somewhere out there, there is a team that will do a 3 tote stack and collect some containers along the way.
llamadon
18-01-2015, 17:12
Hello 2169! greetings from 876.
Here are my two bits on 3 tote auto:
The GDC has yet to give an impossible task. It wouldn't surprise me if the GDC has a robot or two made already that can accomplish this task, just so they know that it isn't impossible.
It will not surprise me when I see robots accomplishing three tote auto. FRC teams always surprise with ingenuity. We thought that a three uber-tube auto was improbable back in 2011 (team 233 comes to mind). The additional challenge of dealing with diverse game pieces will lead to some interesting autonomous routines, I am interested to see what you come up with.
- See you at Northern Lights!
Greetings! It was great to see you guys at the mini-minne.
After seeing year after year of games with autonomous modes similar to this game (2011, as you said,) and seeing the success that teams that achieved the highest level of auto received, I personally think that it is a task worth doing. I think at face value it seems like a hard task, but it just requires a little creativity to work around.
Hopefully we come up with something worth showing :D !
I noticed you guys are attending Wisconsin this year, maybe you should avoid perfecting a 3 tote autonomous until after Wisconsin ;)
Only if we qualify at our first regional ;) If not you may see some stacks in auto :o
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